someguest: The Structure Of Religion

someguest 02.12.12	I'll be checking in once in awhile to respond, if this takes off as well as his list. People always focus on the 'salvation' or 'afterlife' aspect of general religion, but in my opinion that is secondary to the primary benefits offered by following something during life.
gabethepiratesquid 02.12.12	religion is for fagz why cant people be a cool metal atheist like me they're all sheep m/
mbrigham1 02.12.12	organized religion is often times too corrupted and political to be much of a use to anyone. there is absolutely nothing wrong with faith and spirituality, and it should be encouraged, but when religious heads start telling us it's evil to be gay or that someone who celebrates differently than us is our enemy, it has gone too far.
jefflebowski 02.12.12	'Take for example marriage (which is and should be an entirely religious institution - politicizing it has proven to be a disaster)' That's because the homophobic theists kick up a fuss every time this happens. there's absolutely no reason why it should remain 'entirely religious'
jefflebowski 02.12.12	i also don't need to be a theist to know any of the other stuff, it's pretty much common sense and good logic
mbrigham1 02.12.12	there's absolutely no reason why it should remain 'entirely religious' [2] a strong institution of family is important, but it has nothing to do with religion
jdennis31 02.12.12	I grew up in a Christian home and believe my life is better for it. The values religion reinforced for myself are qualities that I like most about myself as well. The thing I hate most is the institutionalization of religion. Just like politics, a figurehead goes in front of a crowd and uses rhetoric to tug at people's emotions to lead them to their own agenda. Not saying their agenda isn't what they actually believe is right, straight from the Bible, but who is he to interpret god's word. i don't understand the logic of the language used either. christians are constantly told they are supposed to be like children, and like sheep, some of the main things people associate with blind faith. to me, if there is a god, and he created me, he also created my brain. if he created my brain, by the transitive property did he not also create logic? if he did create logic how are pastors going to preach foregoing that logic for blind faith? this is pretty unorganized but just typing my thoughts out
jdennis31 02.12.12	also, 1, 2, and 3 all rule
djocelot 02.12.12	You don't need religion to love your family and relax once a while.
jdennis31 02.12.12	doesnt sound like the guy was trying to say you need religion to love your family and relax, sounds more like he's saying a reason we have the mindset and structure for loving family and relaxing once in a while is because of centuries of influence from religion.
jefflebowski 02.12.12	'I grew up in a Christian home and believe my life is better for it. The values religion reinforced for myself are qualities that I like most about myself as well' you shouldn't need religion to be moral
jdennis31 02.12.12	i don't need it, and i no longer have it. i came to the conclusion that i am a happier person when i try to be a good person for myself rather than some unknown entity. i'm not saying that you can't gain morals without any influence from religion either, was just reinforcing what op was saying about the structure of religion helping out
jefflebowski 02.12.12	sometimes it does, and then a lot of the time it installs poisonous prejudices in people from an early age
Kubrick 02.12.12	You have to weigh the positives with the negatives. To use one of your comments as an example: Positive: Religion reinforces the idea of a tight family unit. Negative: Religion actively works to deny many people the right to a family unit by condemning same-sex marriage. You can't deny that IN GENERAL, religion catalyzes conflict, war, prejudice, and injustice. Yes, I know some religions don't, but I'm talking about the big picture here. Any minor positives that you bring up could never outweigh the terrorist attacks, threat of war, and countless innocent human casualties that religion has brought throughout history, and continues to bring today.
djocelot 02.12.12	And I was saying, in a jokey way, that I don't think that is solid enough logic for appropriate cause and effect.
jefflebowski 02.12.12	kubrick said it better than i ever could
jdennis31 02.12.12	indeed, and if you're the type of person who can't differentiate the good from the bad and take it all, then i don't see how you're any better off without religion in your life. you'll just come up with your own poisonous prejudices from another source
jefflebowski 02.12.12	absolute rubbish, perfectly decent people can fall prey to indoctrination if it's pushed hard enough. Like it or not, everyone is to some extent a product of the environment they grow up in
Acanthus 02.12.12	Either you've gone on a "journey" to find more meaning/substance in life or you're trolling (someguest).
jdennis31 02.12.12	eh, i don't know. those people are sheep to me. but i mean i agree with kubrick as well... if people can obtain the morals and values themselves, they'd probably be better off without having to use religion as a guide. just saying it definitely has it's positives.
jefflebowski 02.12.12	they are indeed sheep, ie. the product of indoctrination from a young age. that doesn't make them bad people per se.
jdennis31 02.12.12	oh, by no means did i mean they are bad people. and i know what you mean about the indoctrination from a young age thing, one of my favorite lines in a song is from as cities burn "they fixed your brain when you were young" but eventually everyone gets to a point where they develop the capability to think for themselves, and it's at that point i would fault a person for blindly continuing down the path they follow
mbrigham1 02.12.12	the use of religion to push an agenda is perhaps one of the most disgusting and perverted actions a human can do, but to use faith to better yourself as a person and to help you get through hard times, there isn't anything wrong with that. i'm agnostic myself, but hold nothing against people of faith, only against organized religion
jdennis31 02.12.12	i say everyone but i mean everyone with a fully functional brain
Maniac! 02.12.12	Every time I get ready to post something in a list like this, Kubrick beats me to it.
jefflebowski 02.12.12	'eventually everyone gets to a point where they develop the capability to think for themselves, and it's at that point i would fault a person for blindly continuing down the path they follow' more reasonable, but that's harder than you might think if you've grown up being told different by people you respect and look up to.
jdennis31 02.12.12	i probably just have a very biased opinion on this, because that would be the exact situation i grew up in. extremely pious loving christian home with parents and adults in the church i absolutely respected and looked up to, but i guess i was just lucky enough to have a mindset to diverge from the path i was following
someguest 02.12.12	"Either you've gone on a "journey" to find more meaning/substance in life or you're trolling (someguest)." The former. I haven't been an optimisitic person in quite some time. "you'll just come up with your own poisonous prejudices from another source." Exactly. There are negatives associated with every style of living, and we're less likely to recognize those in which we sympathize.
ohfoxxxycole 02.12.12	jdennis' first paragraph up there is exactly how i feel
Shuyin 02.12.12	religion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC2hoOn6HbI&list=LLkC0RhIDjspXX3YPfA81lHA&index=2&feature=plpp_video
Acanthus 02.12.12	Thought that might be the case, perhaps you'll find what you're looking for.
Spec 02.12.12	That was a surprisingly open minded and reasonable read someguest.
someguest 02.12.12	I'm not a degenerate all of the time Spec.
Kubrick 02.12.12	"Every time I get ready to post something in a list like this, Kubrick beats me to it." Hahaha sorry... at least we're playing on the same team so it's all for the greater good right? "eventually everyone gets to a point where they develop the capability to think for themselves, and it's at that point i would fault a person for blindly continuing down the path they follow" I wish this were universally true. If it was then religion would probably cause a lot less problems than it actually does. For those of use lucky enough to grow up in families like yours or mine that encourage free thought (or at least don't reject it), we have that luxury. It's a luxury that many, many people don't have though. If you're born into a fundamentalist Muslim family in the Middle East, for instance, you would surely be disowned and possibly even killed if you rejected your religion. Questioning your faith and your family is not an option.
KILL 02.12.12	great comment gabe i'm similar although i worship lucifer
UnnamedOcean 02.12.12	I think religion can be very beneficial to individual people, and if it improves the quality of their lives without affecting others negatively then that's fine. However I think religion has been far more detrimental to humanity as a whole than helpful.
jdennis31 02.12.12	@kubrick yea, you're right.
Hyperion1001 02.12.12	hahahaha
Trebor17 02.12.12	I'm staying out of this one
jdennis31 02.12.12	lol @ trebor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W_hcLXKp5w
Hedgehog32396 02.12.12	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8
KILL 02.12.12	religion on a whole is silly yea i'd rather rock to some priest but thats just me
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	"I'll be checking in once in awhile to respond, if this takes off as well as his list. People always focus on the 'salvation' or 'afterlife' aspect of general religion, but in my opinion that is secondary to the primary benefits offered by following something during life." Agreed. Religion is about living the best life possible now. You only get one chance to do it right. Every person dies but not everyone truly lives. Rest is important. Rest and reflection. Today is the Sabbath.
ITsHxCTOASTER 02.12.12	It's threads like these that make me hate all of you Except for dudes like KILL and gabe, you guys have the correct view on this
InnocentShadow 02.12.12	"Any minor positives that you bring up could never outweigh the terrorist attacks, threat of war, and countless innocent human casualties that religion has brought throughout history, and continues to bring today. " These are mainly done by people who have misinterpreted the meaning of religious texts, for no religion actually encourages such acts. They use religion as an excuse to justify what they do; regardless of religion, these are bad people, and religion is in no way to blame for how they act.
UnnamedOcean 02.12.12	"Religion is about living the best life possible now. You only get one chance to do it right." That's incredibly ironic. Most Christians will live their lives dogmatically and in fear, simply preparing themselves for an afterlife. That statement is more in line with Athiest beliefs.
Hyperion1001 02.12.12	religion is dum someguest is dum this thread is dum
jdennis31 02.12.12	"It's threads like these that make me hate all of you" love ya too buddy
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	"That's incredibly ironic. Most Christians will live their lives dogmatically and in fear, simply preparing themselves for an afterlife. That statement is more in line with Athiest beliefs." Okay, go to church and talk to five or six people that are your own age, and talk to me about this then.
Masochist 02.12.12	See, my only problem with the casting aside the idea of religion because of all the people in history who have caused atrocities in its name is that, in my eyes, those atrocities would occur ANYWAYS even if religion wasn't around. People use it because it's the easiest to use, but I believe that if it weren't religion, than they'd find the second easiest reason to go to war. And if the second-easiest reason wasn't available, they'd find the third easiest. It'd be something or another--human nature, IMO. So...I guess I agree with this statement: "the use of religion to push an agenda is perhaps one of the most disgusting and perverted actions a human can do"
WeepingBanana 02.12.12	"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 yup, christianity is totally pro-family
Masochist 02.12.12	...and this statement, because I got sniped :-P : "These are mainly done by people who have misinterpreted the meaning of religious texts, for no religion actually encourages such acts. They use religion as an excuse to justify what they do; regardless of religion, these are bad people, and religion is in no way to blame for how they act."
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	I feel like a lot of people here can talk about music very few can talk about religion. Don't you need to know something before you can talk about it?
jdennis31 02.12.12	@activista anti-MTV eh, it doesn't seem like you really know too many pious christians. they almost always work towards the afterlife and want to condemn the world
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	Pious is always an illusion. No one is perfect. That's a fact. Any one who claims that they are pure, or pious, is probably dishonest or completely insane.
jdennis31 02.12.12	ok... rephrasing. "@activista anti-MTV eh, it doesn't seem like you really know too many people who consider themselves pious christians. they almost always work towards the afterlife and want to condemn the world"
jdennis31 02.12.12	and if by your own age you mean in the 17-23 range, thats usually the age group that will try to justify picking and choosing things out of the bible and still calling themselves christians
DeadBeat 02.12.12	'Take for example marriage (which is and should be an entirely religious institution - politicizing it has proven to be a disaster) which highlights the importance of 'the family unit'' Marriage didn't come from the bible, it already existed LONG before christianity, know your facts
UnnamedOcean 02.12.12	@jdennis31 Yeah, a lot of people in that age range will be like that. I've had firsthand experience with several people who claim to be so devoutly religious, yet they are completely hypocritical about it and ignore all the questionable parts about the bible and whatnot.
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	You should probably avoid people that think that they are perfect in the eyes of God, yes. We agree. Okay, now I am going to come back at you, jdennis. eh, it doesn't seem like you really know too many people who consider themselves christians between the ages of 17-23... real people
mbrigham1 02.12.12	@shuyin nice vid :P
jdennis31 02.12.12	? "christians between the ages of 17-23... real people" i don't get it, is that supposed to be some sarcastic quip about me not knowing real people? i really don't understand where you're coming from, cause i thought it was fairly obvious that christianity is most definitely about the afterlife. if you're talkin religion in general and philosophies like buddhism and confucianism i get what you're saying, but we've been talkin about christians the last few posts
mbrigham1 02.12.12	@weepingbanana lmao
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	? "christians between the ages of 17-23... real people" i don't get it, is that supposed to be some sarcastic quip about me not knowing real people? i really don't understand where you're coming from, cause i thought it was fairly obvious that christianity is most definitely about the afterlife. if you're talkin religion in general and philosophies like buddhism and confucianism i get what you're saying, but we've been talkin about christians the last few posts No, I wasn't quipping about that.
jdennis31 02.12.12	ahh gotcha. it's whatever tho... you're always going to reach an impasse on these topics. and by you i mean people in general, not you specifically
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	I think that if you knew more Christians that are your age, you would see that most Christians are not crazy bible thumpers. That's more or less what I was getting at. Sorry if I didn't articulate that well enough. It's hard to express deep thoughts in this medium.
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	the Christians you meet in church = / = Christians you met at high school and/or college
jefflebowski 02.12.12	'These are mainly done by people who have misinterpreted the meaning of religious texts, for no religion actually encourages such acts' ever read the old testament?
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	Jeff, had this discussion in Funeral's thread
jefflebowski 02.12.12	fair point. my apologies
jdennis31 02.12.12	i didn't even mean crazy bible thumpers. you don't have to be a crazy bible thumper to realize that the bible teaches that earthly things are pretty much worthless and we are workin toward "everlasting life" in heaven. and i grew up in korea, the christians i met at church were the christians i met at highschool. really small community, and you associate with christians of all ages and backgrounds
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	I think impasse is fine, for now.
jdennis31 02.12.12	lol, werd
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	It sounds like you know more about this than most people in this thread, but I would still encourage you to go to church, find one that's cool at least
theashesfromautumn01 02.12.12	you think too much. have you ever just like looked at the clear blue sky and realized everything's not shitty?
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	what's the goods guys?
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	Is anyone even trying to make points or just mental masturbating all over the thread's chest and lower back?
ZombicidalMan 02.12.12	I try to abide to many principles of Buddhism. I practice meditation at times, I'm a vegetarian, and I believe in Karma (not necessarily solely as a spiritual belief, more a psychological one). I think nearly all religions have some good points in them, and as people it wouldn't hurt if we followed some of the 'laws' appearing in scripture and texts. That being said, there are many points of religion that are downright batshit insane. I think we should practice what we believe in, instead of being forced to do things we disagree with, and keep our religious ideals mostly to ourselves. I admit this is a pretty naive way of thinking, that relies on the morality of humans, but hell, it's better than warring and arguing over pointless shit that really can't be proved.
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	это не бессмысленно спорить вы тупой пизды, это делается, чтобы узнать больше о предмете и понять точки зрения других людей.
someguest 02.12.12	"I try to abide to many principles of Buddhism. I practice meditation at times, I'm a vegetarian, and I believe in Karma (not necessarily solely as a spiritual belief, more a psychological one). I think nearly all religions have some good points in them, and as people it wouldn't hurt if we followed some of the 'laws' appearing in scripture and texts. That being said, there are many points of religion that are downright batshit insane. I think we should practice what we believe in, instead of being forced to do things we disagree with, and keep our religious ideals mostly to ourselves." Interesting. I just learned about The Three Doctrines, and Taoism made the most sense to me. I don't really agree with any of them though.
Kubrick 02.12.12	"These are mainly done by people who have misinterpreted the meaning of religious texts, for no religion actually encourages such acts. They use religion as an excuse to justify what they do; regardless of religion, these are bad people, and religion is in no way to blame for how they act." I think this is a valid point and I'm glad you made it. I agree with what you say, but I think it's extremely important to realize that religion in of itself is conducive to conflict and division. It isn't simply an innocent tool that "evil" people use to further their own agendas. Although it definitely can be exploited as you suggest, it also inherently creates conflict that wouldn't exist otherwise (at least not on the same scale). There's people out there that derive their entire moral compass from scripture. They believe what they believe simply because it is stated in the Bible or any other religious text. So, if the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong, they automatically see all homosexuals as sinners and judge them as such. In this case religion is directly creating the prejudice, which manifests as inequality and denial of rights. Not only that, it perpetuates it as well. Anyone brought up in a fundamentalist family will be conditioned to see things the exact same way and thus, the prejudice transcends generations. So yeah, a lot of conflict and "evil" would definitely exist without religion, but to imply that religion has absolute no hand in creating it whatsoever is pretty naive.
someguest 02.12.12	"Although it definitely can be exploited as you suggest, it also inherently creates conflict that wouldn't exist otherwise (at least not on the same scale)." As I said in the other thread, this only happens because people make religion a personal issue instead of one that is purely philosophical.
Vesper 02.12.12	"people make religion a personal issue instead of one that is purely philosophical." How is religion not a personal issue - it's a personal philosophy - unless you're talking about it academically, and I gather no one in this thread is referring to religion professors/students.
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	Thinking religion doesn`t encourage any acts considered bad by our modern society is pretty lullzy. There is no way to know how to interperet the bible or not, for all you know it could be encouraging deeds you deem ìmmoral`.
someguest 02.12.12	Personal in the sense that you don't like what someone else believes and you get upset over it. Of course what you believe is 'personal', but that doesn't create relational conflict within itself.
Vesper 02.12.12	People don't need to get upset, but they do because these beliefs are at odds with each other. You believe in something that says this other person is going to burn in hell because he or she doesn't agree with you. That person believes a similar idea, except you're going to hell. If you're personally invested in a religion, you're undoubtedly going to have to find a way to deal with conflict, because it's going to happen.
Auschwitz 02.12.12	oh my god...
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	Show tolerance to a institution that is fundamentally designed to discriminate against you.
someguest 02.12.12	"If you're personally invested in a religion, you're undoubtedly going to have to find a way to deal with conflict, because it's going to happen." But it doesn't need to happen. Hence, lack of progress.
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	progress is good good we need it!
Kubrick 02.12.12	"But it doesn't need to happen." Nothing needs to happen dude. But the fact of the matter is that is DOES happen, and religion provides the basis and the catalyst. If you really want to turn a blind eye to that indisputable truth and live with an idealized notion of how religion SHOULD work, that's your choice. But it's just that: an idealization. We can argue all day about how religion should work in theory, but it doesn't change the reality and the reality is all that really matters.
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	yepper flipper
Recspecs 02.12.12	I was raised in a Christian home and went to a Christian school, so I basically had religion shoved down my throat 24/7. My parents forced me to read the Bible, memorize verses, go to church, Bible studies, etc. I don't know what I consider myself now, considering Christians don't normally swear/drink/fornicate as much as I do.
DallyLama 02.12.12	religion is useless and harmful. simple as that. you dont "need' it for anything. so is most other organizations...
Funeralopolis 02.12.12	religion is bullshit, narcissism is where it is at. Fuck everything, be nothing.
qwe3 02.12.12	religion was natural and in some ways necessary until people came up with the scientific method and then figured out that religion was pretty much useless. we don't need a god to tell us we need a rest every week, people just do that anyways. there's nothing religion gives to humans that can't be achieved by some other means. it's outdated and irrelevant but thats just my view rock on believers m/
qwe3 02.12.12	"religion is bullshit, narcissism is where it is at. Fuck everything, be nothing. " (i dont think narcissism is the word ur lookin for)
MudIdol 02.12.12	I think Funeral was lookin for nihilism. I agree with him.
Knott- 02.12.12	Yep, but now those organisational features you've mentioned exist, there's no reason to keep linking them back to religious texts to decide what to do with them now.
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	"religion is bullshit, narcissism is where it is at. Fuck everything, be nothing." You're making arguments in favor of religion, now? I don't think you're being serious, but there is some truth in what you are saying... not trying to further an agenda here, just hoping that you can be honest with yourself and decide that your life (what you do with it) is important.
Aphrodisiac 02.12.12	"until people came up with the scientific method and then figured out that religion was pretty much useless. we don't need a god to tell us we need a rest every week, people just do that anyways. there's nothing religion gives to humans that can't be achieved by some other means. it's outdated and irrelevant" oh my god qwe i love you for the first time ever
Activista anti-MTV 02.12.12	There's a religion for people who don't like religion. The Dalai Lama says that religion is entirely unnecessary. You can follow him on twitter (sort of).
qwe3 02.13.12	who the fuck are you and why do you think anyone reads what you say
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	jedi mind tricks, the force etc.
acorncheese 02.13.12	oh my god...[2]
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	horses and water
Funeralopolis 02.13.12	This is a question I feel nobody has answered yet, why do you believe in God? By believe I mean that you unquestionably know he exists and do not doubt him.
Cheesesandwich2 02.13.12	I love reading religious texts, but as for treating them as the literal word of God....i'm not a huge fan
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	If a situation is perceived as real, then it becomes real in its consequences. It doesn't matter what is actually real. It doesn't matter. What someone thinks matters. There's a difference
Funeralopolis 02.13.12	So if I close my eyes and wish real hard that I am a jacked super stud who owns a harem it becomes real? Sign me up!
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	I think stupid people are some of the happiest people on this earth, yes.
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	I am not trying to insult anyone, but if you really could convince yourself (like that), then that might be something to look into. Is being ripped and having a harem really what you want out of this life? I don't think so...
MudIdol 02.13.12	"Is being ripped and having a harem really what you want out of this life? I don't think so..." Pretty sure he kids. But if that was something that made someone happy and fulfilled their life why stop them?
FrankRedHot 02.13.12	Are they allowing blacks to get married yet?
Activista anti-MTV 02.13.12	Regina Spektor - Folding Chair
Wizard 02.25.12	Legit, sounds like you had an interesting conversation about religion!
Activista anti-MTV 02.25.12	yep it was legit
Activista anti-MTV 02.25.12	fvcking thrice man
qwe3 02.26.12	"Are they allowing blacks to get married yet?" they?
Motiv3 02.26.12	'religion was natural and in some ways necessary until people came up with the scientific method and then figured out that religion was pretty much useless. we don't need a god to tell us we need a rest every week, people just do that anyways. there's nothing religion gives to humans that can't be achieved by some other means. it's outdated and irrelevant' That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.