PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | Fuck that's horrible man. Sadly, I can't even keep count of how many students have committed suicide at my school and I've only been in high school for three years. I don't know of any students here who have taken their lives over trans discrimination since my school is fairly progressive in that regard, but we definitely have a problem with mental health that we still have to deal with. Best of luck in holding your head up. |
Supercoolguy64
01.15.16 | sorry to hear that. last few months have been pretty rough when it comes to deaths |
Tunaboy45
01.15.16 | Fuck that's awful |
onionbubs
01.15.16 | Man that's terrible. life is screwed up real bad |
evilford
01.15.16 | that sucks. people are fuckheads |
Asdfp277
01.15.16 | that's horrible, i hope ur feeling ok
we all gotta work to stop this, we gotta work towards acceptance and respect |
Snake.
01.15.16 | yeah this shit needs to fucking end
one of my best friends is mtf trans and she's constantly harassed on twitter every day |
hal1ax
01.15.16 | that's terrible man
most people are fucking poison |
Asdfp277
01.15.16 | some people can't behave |
MO
01.15.16 | I feel like coming out in high school is a bad move since everyone around you is generally really immature and will inevitably lead to bullying. I know you discover yourself in your teens more and more and whatnot but I feel like it could potentially only lead to bad things, my condolences to you though OP |
Asdfp277
01.15.16 | yeah i agree with MO, it's sad but yea people are immature |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | We still have a long ways to go but it's amazing to see how much progress we've made in the last year or so. Like at the start of 2014, most people didn't even know what being trans actual meant or had a lot of misconceptions, now pretty much everyone has at least a basic understanding and I've seen more support for trans people in the last year than I can recall ever seeing before |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | yeah i agree with MO, it's sad but yea people are immature [2] |
TheSonomaDude
01.15.16 | You'd think in 2016 people would have a better grasp on understanding differences. |
Asdfp277
01.15.16 | things are getting better tho @sonoma, it's a slow process but things do get better with time |
ScuroFantasma
01.15.16 | That's really sucks man, it's terrible what people do to each other |
zakalwe
01.15.16 | I don't want to sound an arse in these tragic times but I really do struggle to understand somethings in 'modern' society.
The family of that poor lad must be devastated and I don't mean to be inconsiderate or ignorant or any of that nonsense but why is 'sexuality' such a huge thing that people try to label themselves during their teen years.
Terms that get flung around now didn't even exist when I was at school.
There seems to be pressure on people to have a sexual identity because it's seen as some badge of honour.
Being a teen is a confusing time, none of us know who or what we are and labelling yourself as this, that, or the other while your biologically all over the place just seems a bit......weird. |
TheSonomaDude
01.15.16 | I mean we've gotten better with racial differences but a mass majority of the populous still believes homosexuality is a choice - a gross, immoral one at that - and that there is a man in the sky watching over us, despite centuries of scientific evidence to disprove such claims. I don't have a problem with opinions or beliefs, believe whatever makes you happy...it's just the fucking ignorance and arrogance of some people. |
evilford
01.15.16 | kids are always gonna be immature tho, they are so by nature |
Asdfp277
01.15.16 | zak: can we not do this rn. we get it, you're old
sonoma: i agree with you wholeheartedly, but i do believe things do get better, though slowly. u gotta have hope |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | jesus fucking christ jthat's terrible man.
I agree with MO to a degree although I do think the perceptions are changing (at least in certain demographics) and perceptions should continue to change. A trans girl that was in my semester a year ago is now gone and no doubt due to being harassed by a bunch of dickheads.
@Portraits: The U.S. is actually - partially - doing better than other countries or at least large demographics in other countries since there's barely a public dialogue about this type of stuff. We already have the legal protection in place which is good but I feel there is a reluctance of publically discussing such issues, it often feels like they're being swept under the rug so to speak. Gender roles and stereotypes here are rarely questions outside of very specific demographics. |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | *questioned,
not gonna edit because sputnik's gonna fuck my format |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | I'm currently dating a trans guy, and even though we have come a long ways recently, it still is scary to think of how ignorant and straight up hateful people can be towards people who are just trying to be who they truly are. I can't imagine what that student's family and friends are going through rn |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | I agree in part with MO that coming out in high school can be a risky move, but I do think it can be a good way of achieving more visibility and helping close minded people understand and accept lgbt kids. Though personal safety is obviously more important than being a spokesperson for any movement |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | @Zak: Do you have any idea how much of an identity crisis that type of stuff can cause in this society? How dissociated from yourself you can feel? Pushed to be something else? And it's not just sexuality. It can be, like being bi, gay or asexual can be incredibly confusing and hard to live with. Transsexuality and transgender are even more of a beast to deal with. Even "just being gender queer" can result in a shitstorm. |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | Going through your teen years is hard and you put trust in people you probably shouldn't put trust in. When you're in high school, you don't know that much better. I know based on my own sexual orientation and my past.
I can't imagine how hard it was to deal with being transgender and having people turn their backs on you. That's awful. |
Nazzadan
01.15.16 | That's pretty terrible man. A childhood friend on my block ate a shotgun, turns out he desperately wanted to transition but his parents wouldn't have any part of it and wouldn't help him. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | @ wolf, I get where you're coming from but let's try not to close down discussion for this stuff, I think discussions are probably the best way to help us all understand each other tbh |
barcafan21
01.15.16 | I can't imagine having to go through something like that, from all sides. Just an all-around shitty situation, I'm sorry :( |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | I wish he had somebody to explain that it really does get better. |
zakalwe
01.15.16 | Wolfy. Yes dude, trust me.
I just feel that people are not allowed to naturally evolve.
People are labelling themselves as straight, gay, bi, trans and what have you at ages when it's not possible to identify with anything on a sexual level.
'Feelings' are immediately stamped as a sexual preference when what they are is an internal awakening to sexuality as a whole.
'Young bill was obviously into boys at 5, we knew then'
'Lucy, loved wearing her dads clothes at 7, she obviously wants to imasculate her self for her own psychological development and sexual liberation'
It's all just psycho babble.
|
evilford
01.15.16 | I think it's great that we're making progress like we have been in terms of people being able to be more comfortable being themselves, but at the same time it's probably gonna mean that on average there are going to be more clashes between trans people (or anyone of any "difference" from the "norm") and un-accepting jerks and assholes. I mean I think progress has been made but it still worries me |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | Oh 5 and 7 are way too young to determine. Little boys and girls can be just curious. It's when you hit puberty when it gets you. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | "I just feel that people are not allowed to naturally evolve."
Could you elaborate what that means please? |
evilford
01.15.16 | and I also agree w/ Zak to an extent. it's great that some people are ok w/ being different but I think sometimes people rush to the table on some of those things because they want to be different. OBVIOUSLY not saying that's the case all the time or even a large portion of the time but I'm sure it does happen, there is such an emphasis on individuality and self-discovery now that some kids (especially) could be taking one-off situations and turning them directly into, like zak said, I'm gay, I'm bi, I feel like I am a woman, etc. kids under 20 and even in their early 20s sometimes depending on maturity can be so impressionable and still developing as people and individuals that it could be quite problematic for them to prematurely pigeon-hole themselves like that. I see it all the time where YOUNG kids are sure they're bi, gay, even straight, feel like the opposite sex etc and I really wonder how sure they are of that and how much actual development has happened to that effect. but that really has more to do w/ their age to me than anything else |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | BUT you guys do realize everybody is pressured to be heterosexual and the gender they were born into? Like, that's an ongoing pressure. Especially if the parents/family are religious. |
evilford
01.15.16 | yes that is quite obvious I would think |
zakalwe
01.15.16 | It's an all encompassing thing. |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | So no reason for somebody to WANT TO be different and go against that pressure unless they really want hardships in their life. Is what I'm saying.
Maybe they come off as wanting to be different, but they probably just are. |
AmericanFlagAsh
01.15.16 | It's a very grey thing. I do agree. Nothing in this world is black or white. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | I agree that you can't really label an elementary school kid as "trans" but I think it's important to encourage kids to do what they want (as long as they don't have desires to harm others obviously) and be who they feel they are, whether or not that kid is actually trans* or not. Every child needs to grow up in a supportive home and you really never know when someone is actually trans*, I've seen a lot of trans people before transitioning where I would have never thought they could be anything but cis tbh |
evilford
01.15.16 | "So no reason for somebody to WANT TO be different and go against that pressure unless they really want hardships in their life. Is what I'm saying."
I honestly think in SOME cases people want to be different because being different is "cool" now. people don't want to be normal and boring. you honestly don't think that happens? |
evilford
01.15.16 | "I agree that you can't really label an elementary school kid as "trans" but I think it's important to encourage kids to do what they want (as long as they don't have desires to harm others obviously) and be who they feel they are, whether or not that kid is actually trans* or not. Every child needs to grow up in a supportive home and you really never know when someone is actually trans*"
completely agree |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | @Portraits: Wasn't trying to. I just sometimes get a bit itchy when I get the feeling of cis-gendered white males chiming with "back in my day.." type of stuff.
@Zak: Well, yes and no. People can label themselves if they want to, they don't have to. There is no "natural evolution", there's too much individual variance so I think people should just find out for themselves what the best way is.
"Oh 5 and 7 are way too young to determine. Little boys and girls can be just curious. It's when you hit puberty when it gets you."
Doesn't have to. I didn't fully realize/accept what I was until I was 17/18/19. Some things I didn't even fully accept until last year.
@ford: Of course there will still be clashing because there are idiots who think that people living in a way that doesn't fit their world view offends them personally (and may or may not reign in the apocalypse) - not to mention that it means a shift away from a system where the formerly privileged don't have the same privileges anymore.
As for the whole "being sure" and labeling yourself: I don't think there's necessarily pressure to do so, if anything there's more pressure to conform to a certain standard (depending on your social circle, regional demographic and somesuch). Plus I don't see the issue. Labels are just simplifications of reality, they're not a permanent attribute that's completely resistant to change - just like most categories. Plus it really sounds like old man babble in the vein of "YOU YOUNGSTERS DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW ABOUT YOU WAIT ANOTHER 10-20 YEARS!"
|
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | Honestly I can't agree with people who refuse to believe that there are some people out there who are just questioning/curious or looking to be different (especially in this country where there's so much emphasis on being "your own person" and shit, like no wonder everyone's a "special snowflake" nowadays). But my question is, is pigeonholing yourself really that harmful? Can't "exploration" at a young age be beneficial even if that kid grows up be to straight or cis? |
evilford
01.15.16 | I don't think kids in their early teens would usually have enough life experience to know for sure what their actual sexuality is. and I'm not saying that automatically means they're straight either |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | "Labels are just simplifications of reality, they're not a permanent attribute that's completely resistant to change"
Exactly |
evilford
01.15.16 | @ portraits - labeling sexuality in general is problematic imo. Most people would probably "identify" me as straight to put a label on it but I have been attracted to, and considered having relationships w/ men and transpeople as well. I just think those opportunities could fall down the drain if I said I'm straight and that's the end of it. sexuality is more complicated than that. I don't care if you or anyone wants to label themselves, go ahead, I just think it could be kind of counterproductive.
also re: exploration, I don't think I ever said exploration is a bad thing, exploration is great and is definitely one of the huge factors in developing as a person |
zakalwe
01.15.16 | I know what you fuckers are like so I want to make this absolutey crystal clear.
***im just offering something to the discussion, a thought and something that I query*** Ready....
On the otherside of the coin somebody who disagrees with another's sexuality isn't some being from another planet, religious zealot, philistine or criminal.
It's a contradiction but people have to accept that some people will never accept.
When it manifests itself in prejudice and violence that's obviously intolerable but don't tell people what they can or can't think.
When that happens everyone of us is totally fucked. |
evilford
01.15.16 | and I agree w/ mo that people should be able to come out in HS, people should be able to "come out" in any situation but it can definitely be dangerous and/or harmful to do so, especially in school years, which is bullshit but unfortunately that's still how it is at this point |
torts
01.15.16 | it's not a crime, its just a very shitty thing to do, and you really should think hard and long about yr morals if something like sexuality really gets you upset or gives you a feeling of wanting to disagree so strongly |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | @evilford: but isn't it possible that if we don't find other labels for ourselves, then most of the world will just continue with the assumption that we're all cis-het? Labels can definitely be problematic, but I think they can also be beneficial, they can be more specific so we have a better idea of what we're talking about, and also more broad to be more inclusive. Of course labels and language in general is always a work in progress, as we see with the way language is always evolving for better or worse |
zakalwe
01.15.16 | Yeah, I agree torts. |
Friday13th
01.15.16 | Honestly the biggest problem is suicide. It's the tenth leading cause of death in the U.S. and higher in some European countries. FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES. You think you have it worse than some orphan in Bangladesh? It amazes me that educated people think that suicide is okay given you "don't feel like dealing with the pain." Have you ever had a feeling pass away? Jeez. Unless you're in a concentration camp seriously, basically every problem people face in the western world can be overcome with determination and a realistic perspective. We should stop bullying, unfair situations etc. but every person should realize just because you're bullied, lose a loved one, dumped by boyfriend/girlfriend, or lose a job it's not too difficult to overcome.
People avoid this topic to be sensitive to the victim I know, but doing so perpetuates the problem. I'm for saving lives over saving feelings any day, thank you. |
torts
01.15.16 | absolutely nothing wrong with labels either |
evilford
01.15.16 | @ portraits, I suppose. I still think there is a negative side to sexuality labels tho. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | In an ideal world, there probably wouldn't be labels and we could be whoever we want and be with whoever we want, but that's just not the world we live in so labels are a good way of making everything more simple for us to communicate |
evilford
01.15.16 | I just think if you're going to label yourself (ANYTHING sexuality-wise mind you, including straight/cis) teenage years could be too soon, especially early teenage years |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | Only if the people around you are dipshits that think this world is static or you get restrained by your use of that term. Otherwise I don't see the issue. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | *evilford: I think you have a good point and you see that a lot with people who get bullied as teens and then find a better community in college. But coming out early on can help to cope with the feelings of alienation and find like-minded people who are most likely looking for the same thing. But I think it really depends on your environment - if you're a kid in San francisco, go out and wave a fucking flag about it; if you're the only gay/trans kid you know in your conservative bible-belt town, I'd advise you to only come out to people who you trust would be supportive out of interest for your own safety. |
evilford
01.15.16 | ok nvm then |
evilford
01.15.16 | @ portraits - totally agredd |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.15.16 | "Only if the people around you are dipshits that think this world is static or you get restrained by your use of that term. Otherwise I don't see the issue."
Pretty much what I was trying to get at
|
evilford
01.15.16 | that's what I was saying yes, there are people like that. obviously it wouldn't be a problem otherwise |
Minushuman24
01.15.16 | People who get that upset over something so little that they have to harass and get angry at that person for it has their priorities in the wrong fucking place, fuck those kids. |
Zig
01.15.16 | Fuck those idiots ! That's really sad to happen. |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | @Ford: Sorry, didn't see that. Sounded a bit like you thought it came as an inherent issue, a confusion you see people make often - thinking that issues that stem from the society or the environment are inherent to being trans, gay or something along those lines. Some argue with rates of mental illness for example, which is obviously dumb as all hell if you consider the societal context. |
Parallels
01.15.16 | The catch 22 is that the longer MTF's wait to transition the more masculine they will look going through a male puberty. There's a rift in the community around this, not all younger transitioners are sure it is what they want and can be legitimately scared, there are younger transitioners that call out the older ones as "hons" because they still look like men, and that they aren't really trans if they lived out most of their life as a man and are therefore mentally ill. Then you have the older ones that are jealous and bitter from not starting that young. |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | That's even worse. That's just as dumb as gays and lesbians discriminating against bisexuals, asexuals and trans people. Like.. seriously? Why the fuck are you people discriminating someone they should be able to empathize with?
Jesus fucking christ, sometimes I'd like to set people on fire and just watch them burn. |
Parallels
01.15.16 | There actually is weird stuff going on both sides, there are a small number of younger transitioners that self-proclaim and admit they aren't really trans and are only doing it because they are treated better as a female and like the attention, and there honestly are people that are so obsessed with a sexual fetish that they decide to transition and end up acting like cringeful stereotypes of 50's housewifes, and are usually a lot more obvious as the media usually enjoys showing them as shock effect, and it sets off the younger crowd to treat all older transitioners as fake, etc etc |
evilford
01.15.16 | "The catch 22 is that the longer MTF's wait to transition the more masculine they will look going through a male puberty. There's a rift in the community around this, not all younger transitioners are sure it is what they want and can be legitimately scared,"
this is kinda what I was getting at earlier |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | How is the situation in the U.S. legally? Over here you need to have consultations with a doctor and a therapist and lengthy preparation and that type of stuff. |
Sinternet
01.15.16 | urgh that sucks dude, i know a few people who have transitioned from MtF and one FtM, and they were all lucky enough to be supported in their transition and are very happy and nice people. Of course it shouldn't have to be down to luck, people should just accept trans peoples lives and lived experiences considering it has like zero effect on anyone outside close friends and family, but it is a sad existence some people live in which they focus more on restricting other people from being true to themself for no reason whatsoever |
Parallels
01.15.16 | "How is the situation in the U.S. legally?"
To transition and get HRT? I don't know if it's the same all across the US but basically at least 18/parent's permission, get a referral from a counselor, consent forms, blood tests, and after a few years of hormone replacement the doctor decides whether to sign off on allowing the government to change the gender marker on ID, documents, etc. In some countries it's different and there are gender clinics, and have to wait years just to get the OK to go on HRT. Actually passing as a girl irl however is half age and half winning the genetic lottery, and that often coupled with histories of sexual and physical abuse, and neglect, that is what makes a lot of transwomen suicidal |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | Yikes.
"considering it has like zero effect on anyone outside close friends and family"
Yeah, unfortunately people think it does and it leads to discrimination in all kinds of areas. |
ArsMoriendi
01.15.16 | Aw that's awful. Well hopefully as we progress they'll be less discrimination... hopefully. I mean I haven't really met a trans person who doesn't seem to be discriminated against so we have a long way to go sadly. |
SgtAenema
01.15.16 | man thats terrible. |
Thuglifethor
01.15.16 | @Friday13th:
But depression, especially clinically diagnosed depression, isn't something you can simply talk yourself out of? It's a chemical inbalance in the brain, you can't tell your brain to stop doing what it does entirely. As someone who has dealt with severe depression and anxiety and has worked my way out of its grasps, no matter how strong you get it's going to be there until your brain either changes, which might never even happen to you. There is a difference between first world and third world depression because of what causes the depression, but the outcomes of each are the same. In many studies, depression rates are higher in 3rd world countries (per 100,000 people). How depression affects people is different depending on who has it, but what it can end up doing to a person is the same regardless. |
Wolfhorde
01.15.16 | ^ What he said. Plus it's not like you think rationally in certain moments - telling someone with a mental illness he just needs a realistic perspective is like telling someone with a panic attack that rationally nothing bad is happening. It's not like people rationally don't know any of that type of stuff, its the irrational thoughts and a self-reinforcing behavioral loop that gets to you. Just like self harm can be (like) an addiction, a bit of perspective & rationality won't do jackshit. |
onionbubs
01.15.16 | @Ars actually, one of my best friends is trans, but no one makes fun of xem about it. Actually, xe has made a lot of friends in my school community because of it. We're progressing! |
anarchistfish
01.15.16 | "The family of that poor lad must be devastated and I don't mean to be inconsiderate or ignorant or any of that nonsense but why is 'sexuality' such a huge thing that people try to label themselves during their teen years."
gender not sexuality. and gender as a discourse has been around for millenia
"Terms that get flung around now didn't even exist when I was at school. "
yeah that's cos you lived in the past when gender conformity was more all-consuming
There seems to be pressure on people to have a sexual identity because it's seen as some badge of honour.
"Being a teen is a confusing time, none of us know who or what we are and labelling yourself as this, that, or the other while your biologically all over the place just seems a bit......weird."
yh but you're demonstrably wrong as far as them "imagining it" or whatever goes. these are issues that would have been silently suppressed in the past but now that we know the dichotomy between male and female is a false one this is just a result of people trying to reclaim their identity within the parameters of the discourse |
anarchistfish
01.15.16 | "There seems to be pressure on people to have a sexual identity because it's seen as some badge of honour."
there's been pressure to have sexual identity for centuries, but this has always been within the confines of socially acceptable behaviour and after so long with these ideas people have taken them for granted
u should read some foucault |
anarchistfish
01.15.16 | i mean just take this post as a clear example of where the pressure of conformity is coming from
seriously
also what wolf said |
evilford
01.15.16 | how is that post pressuring anyone to conform |
anarchistfish
01.15.16 | I'm talking about the context of the story |
NakedSnake
01.15.16 | humans are animalistically cruel to one another |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | "we know the dichotomy between male and female is a false one this is just a result of people trying to reclaim their identity within the parameters of the discourse."
See it's this sort of psycho babble nonsense I'm talking about.
Germaine Greer recently caused a right stink about some stuff she said about a man has to realise that being a woman is 'not all cakes and jam' and that there are implicit factors in being a woman that a man, who wants to be a woman will never ever understand and therefore cannot be a woman.
I actually applauded her. |
torts
01.16.16 | I'd agree with all of what she said up until the "cannot be a woman" part. like come on really, I can see why someone would be upset in that case but really, is it necessary to go that far with it? no |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Until you have screamed in terror as a child at finding blood in your knickers and subsequently have crippling stomach cramps and mood swings every month for years and years, have had a baby suckle at your breast whom has been gestating inside your own body for 9mnths and you would chose death over the pain of childbirth id say she's definitely got a point. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | If anything it's actually fucking disrespectful to women.
'Oh by the way because this male female dichotomy is a false one and you are merely claiming your identity through the parameters set by discourse I want to be a woman.'
Come on now. |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | But don't people already acknowledge that there's a difference between sex and gender?
Man and woman are genders that are societally chosen, where as biologically male and biologically female are sexes that are not. At least that's my understanding of it. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Yeah, so why adopt societal names and fashions for women then go the whole hog and get your tackle turned into a vag? |
TheSonomaDude
01.16.16 | Sputnik is just one big online mental institution, as are most music and fine art discussion websites. |
Mystletainn
01.16.16 | He could have a point ^ |
hikingmetalpunk
01.16.16 | progression is key |
Parallels
01.16.16 | Well, they've done studies that transgirls have a BSTc part of the brain identical to cis women, even before HRT, and gay men are identical to straight men. They've also studied hormonal imbalances in the womb, i.e. if their mom had them too soon after a large miscarriage or estrogen shot, that causes parts of the brain to not develop and stay female (everyone is female early on in development).
@zak
I kind of agree with you within a certain context though, I think some transgendered women are extremely disrespectful to all women when they act like a cringy stereotype. It makes the entire trans community look bad, cis or not. It's not a coincidence that more notice it with those transitioning after living a substantial portion of their life as a male. And the media shows this side the most of course because stealth passable ones obviously don't want to out themselves as trans to the whole world |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | There's a case of one man who transitioned into a woman had surgery and then regretted it because "putting on make-up everyday and acting like a woman was exhausting." He's gone back to being a man.
I just think it's all very demeaning.
This morning there is an article on the BBC website about some 6yr boy old who has become a girl and I just find something essentially distressing about it.
Taking everything into account I feel there are deeper issues at the root of it. I suppose its termed dysphoria for a reason. The washing over of it all, tagging it on to sexuality as if it's just something that finds its place I think is a bit of a faux-pas.
I dunno dudes. |
bach
01.16.16 | i'd say there are infinitely more people satisfied with their transition than not tbh |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Undoubtedly but that's not to say it's a cure all. |
bach
01.16.16 | you're right. not everyone needs or even wants to transition and go all out with the surgical procedures. for me, it's a matter of respecting another human being. let people do what they wanna do. |
Parallels
01.16.16 | Let's be real tho, giving up transitioning with the excuse that you can't mentally bring yourself to handle makeup is probably a good indicator that you aren't really trans in the first place
what makes that worse is "acting like a woman," that's the problem. I act like myself, not a stereotype, and have had girls (and guys) tell me that they thought of me as a girl, and/or that I looked like one |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | Trans rights would so easily be sorted/passed/protected if it weren't for people trying to force religion into the law anyway. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | And what do you feel like parallels?
A man, a woman or yourself? |
Parallels
01.16.16 | I feel like a boy sometimes because the fact that I have a dick obvs lol. mentally and socially however I don't key in with being male at all |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Interesting. I don't even know if I could answer my own question. I've never even really thought about it until these discussions crop up. Myself with a bit of bloke thrown in I 'spose.
And "it's a matter of respecting another human being. let people do what they wanna do"
To an extent, that's the problem respect for other people's thoughts whatever they maybe all go out the window because 'I'm happy, I'm doing what I wanna do' causes its own problems.
|
Parallels
01.16.16 | It's okay, it's interesting to talk about it with someone. This is what I look like btw https://unsee.cc/puniresa/ |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Disappointing, it's blank. Unless that's a statement you're making which in that case. Cool! |
Parallels
01.16.16 | ? Huh? It was blank? I'm so confused |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Tried it again, doesn't seem to won't to open properly on me phone. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | @zak: I'm skeptical, that type of stuff may happen in rare cases but that still sounds very much like an attempt at discrediting trans women and their experiences, which is unacceptable either way.
Also, how is pointing out long known facts like the fluidity of gender and sexuality "psycho babble"? We've known that shit for 80 years now.
|
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Known about it but have we truly understood it?
Psychologists will give you different opinions, says it all really. |
NorthernSkylark
01.16.16 | Let's not call sexuality a badge of honor when it is in fact extremely important for person development and identity. Here in Denmark i feel like we're very open about these sort of things, but there's still a long way
togo in terms of simply understanding these terms. cause they're relatively new. I believe that time will erase the social stigma, just like it did for gay people. It seems it's way worse in the US tho, suicides are always tragic, but when they are commited because of society, they are so grim it makes mechoke up, my condolences, hope the people will wake up and admit that they are the problem, not the dead. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | "Known about it but have we truly understood it?
Psychologists will give you different opinions, says it all really."
You don't really know much about the methodology of science, do you? |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Dude you're the one whose saying we've known about it for 80yrs as if we've all been there, done it and we have moved onto the next question raised.
I'm saying we are still asking the questions that were raised 80yrs ago and none of us have got a clue.
Psycho babble fills in the gaps. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | Because all scientific knowledge regarding gender and sexuality is just psycho babble, agreed. Just like carbohydrates trap fat in your cells and make you fat and have diabetes. And Hitler went to the dark side of the moon with his UFOs and will come back for the reckoning. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | lol |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | I'm just saying there is no one with any credibility questioning that gender and sexuality are fluid. I don't really see what you want to get with all your "psycho babble filling in the gaps" what specifically is psycho babble? Are you implying that gender and sexuality are binary and pre-determined?
I just absolutely fail to see what you're trying to communicate. |
Friday13th
01.16.16 | Wolfhorde, you do know a prominent characteristic of science is testing and modification of theories, no? Then why is your response to something you consider inconsistent with science met with no evidence? Zak is completely right. Evidence is inconclusive. People having the right to do what they want is different.
Let me pose a simple inconsistency. I read Parallels say that they found evidence that trans women had a part of the brain similar to cis women as opposed to straight or gay men. How do we know that is the cause of wanting to transition as opposed to the result? Say it is the cause like many assume. That requires that there is in fact a measurable difference between the genders. I thought it was all fluid? Well then, round up all the people with "female" brains and tell them they are scientifically female. You see the problem? Science is not conclusive on it. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | In it's most succinct form.
People try and explain the unexplainable by rationalising the irrational.
The brain is a baffling box of bollocks.
Let's live, laugh and love one another. equal respect, equal understanding, restraint when needed, take things on the chin, face facts, change for the better as a whole, less selfishness, more compassion, discuss, think, debate, hear all sides, willingness to change for others, grin and bear it, root out the problem, patience, time, head to the stars.
Everyone one of us, everyone are all in the same trench. Help each other.
|
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | I'm well aware of that. I was just trying to get at what he was trying to communicate via hyperbolic sarcasm because it appeared like he was just discrediting anything as "psycho babble" when not all of it even has to do with psychology.
As a response: That's not an inconsistency if you consider neuroplasticity. Also, there are semantic issues with that proposition. If it is in fact a matter of the brain - i.e. something biological - it's not a matter of gender anymore but a matter of the biological sex as gender implies specific roles and behaviors ascribed by society, it makes no biological implications even if people falsely connect the two.
I never said that science is 100% conclusive, I was implying that despite the inconclusive nature of science it's probabilistic and with the current state of evidence we can assume this or that. I.e. we can't assume the hyperbolic positions I made above because there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. |
Friday13th
01.16.16 | "As a response: That's not an inconsistency if you consider neuroplasticity. Also, there are semantic issues with that proposition. If it is in fact a matter of the brain - i.e. something biological - it's not a matter of gender anymore but a matter of the biological sex as gender implies specific roles and behaviors ascribed by society, it makes no biological implications even if people falsely connect the two."
^ that's more like it, Wolfhorde. Let me ask though, if gender is a social construct with no biological implications and then there's biological sex, why do people bring up scientific evidence for being trans or whatever? Why do you invoke science against Zak when all it can tell us about is biological sex and nothing about gender? |
Sevengill
01.16.16 | Because most people don't care to learn about the differences. It's "not their problem." |
Archael
01.16.16 | gender is a social construct based on something biological (sex). they aren't mutually exclusive, but definitely aren't the same either.
a friend of mine whose from india told me that, depending on just how you're defining the word "gender", they have more than 8 genders over there (via caste system and others). |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | What a minefield. Christ almighty. |
DirEnRefused
01.16.16 | knew this'd be a shitstorm that detracted from the issue before i even looked.
hope you're alright thor and i'm sorry that kid couldn't see a way out. |
PortraitsOfDecay
01.16.16 | Okay so I know I'm kinda late to the discussion of addressing zak's point that a trans-woman can't fully understand what it's like to be a woman or whatever because she can't give birth, but I'm just going throw my two cents out there. Yes, trans people don't have the same understanding of what it means to be a man/woman that cis people do, and I think that it goes with without saying that cis people sure as hell will never fully understand what's it like to be trans. But my point is, what it "means to be a man/woman" differs from culture to culture, this is indisputable.
A woman growing up in one point of the world can have a completely different understanding of being a woman than that of a woman growing up in another part of the world, the same way that trans women and cis woman have different understandings of this. But just because one woman might not have the same experience as another (i.e. childbirth), does that really make her any less of a woman? Childbirth is a pain that I will never understand being someone born with a penis and being assigned male at birth because of it (and partially identifying with it, for the record), but isn't being told your entire life that you are something different from who you feel that you truly are a comparable pain, or at least one a cis woman couldn't understand? Like a black person in today's America wouldn't have the same perspective of one during slavery or segregation, but we wouldn't say that they're not black just because they haven't faced the same level of oppression.
And also, no woman HAS to give birth to be a woman. Yes, I get that in some societies child-bearing is a heavy expectation, and I would assume that is the reason that you brought it up, zak, but giving birth is not the most essential part of being female.
I apologize that this was really long winded, I just have a lot of thoughts on the issue I guess. |
Sevengill
01.16.16 | Race and gender in a public forum are like fire and nitroglycerin. Ugh.
This is actually a decent discussion guys. Thanks for taking the time to actually think through it all. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | " zak's point that a trans-woman can't fully understand what it's like to be a woman or whatever because she can't give birth,"
because hundreds of thousands of biological women don't suffer from infertility issues. |
Satellite
01.16.16 | ...or simply decide not to have children. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | also what about women who just decide not to have children? saying giving birth is like the defining experience of being a woman is straight up ignorant. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | woop satty beat me
|
Satellite
01.16.16 | idiot |
Satellite
01.16.16 | ;) |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | fml |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | plus you can be a mother without physically giving birth and you do not need to be biologically female to be a mother. many of the roles of a mother are just gender role stereotypes anyways. |
Satellite
01.16.16 | also i think we have to acknowledge that for most of us it's impossible to truly relate to trans ppl. i can't imagine what that must be like because that's not my reality. i can be empathetic, though.
surprisingly civil discussion and that deion is super sad. sorry for your loss. |
Parallels
01.16.16 | @Friday13th
Well, the BSTc size couldn't have been the result of transitioning because the study was conducted with mixed pre-hrt and transitioned subjects. |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | yh people saying this discussion is a shitstorm makes it more so than the actual discussion |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | I'm not saying and didn't say that to experience childbirth is the defining factor of being a woman?
I used it as a reference for the vast differences that lay between man and woman biologically and people who think they can just slip into a gender role because they want to.
The example I used of the fella who found putting on 'make-up exhausting' and wants re-re constructive surgery to revert back to physically being a man was brushed off as 'an attempt at discrediting trans woman'
What does that make the fella then? An attention seeker? a one off? a nutter?
I find it almost impossible to believe that a 6 year old boy having an inclination of wanting to be a girl/woman is the reality of an experience of someone who is questioning their gender at the age of 28.
People are so quick to shout out the answers to a b and c that they forget/choose to ignore x y and z.
As sat mentions not many of us are going to truly relate to the experience, I haven't got the first fuckin clue but I still find it interesting.
|
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | "people who think they can just slip into a gender role because they want to."
they can tho rofl. choose your terms more carefully, 'gender' roles don't have anything to do with biology. gender and sex are different. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | sex is biological male female gender is roles and behaviours masculine feminine |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Do they though?
This is the original Germaine Greer interview I watched and applauded.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7B8Q6D4a6TM |
Sinternet
01.16.16 | anyone who thinks Germaine Greer is anything but scum is deluded |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "I used it as a reference for the vast differences that lay between man and woman biologically and people who think they can just slip into a gender role because they want to."
what do gender roles have to do with biology? |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | "Do they though?"
do they what? |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | in fact, do WHAT what? the fuck are you talking about lmao |
RosaParks
01.16.16 | somehow knew i'd come in here to find some old retard failing to comprehend anything discovered/brought to prominence in the past 15 years |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | what potsy, portraits and fish are saying. |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | using a feminist doesn't help your cause zak. it's a well known fact there's a big transphobic problem in parts of the feminist movement who are just as averse to the progress of research and thought as you |
doomjitsu
01.16.16 | oh my god wolfhorde is still alive |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | See Rosa now who's being discriminatory? we all suffer it.
We are all in the same trench. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | "oh my god wolfhorde is still alive"
Yeah, unfortunately Khorne has not granted me championhood.
yet. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | nah zak u in a whole different trench of stupid tbh |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | also, seriously what kind of point are you trying to make ,zak?
are you seriously insinuating that gender and sex are tied together? |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | And there comes the 'phobic' suffix.
I'm just talking about it, and without knowing a,b and c I find myself agreeing with Germaine.
|
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | yes we know u like to choose to be an ass |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "And there comes the 'phobic' suffix."
how else should it be described?
maybe we'd take your arguments more seriously if you actually read into the literature and the science, thought it through and came back with relevant counterpoints, |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | I do what I do dude. I question and discuss and openly admit I haven't the first fuckin clue but am willing to learn, offer a thought and take on board what others have to say.
|
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | "I'm just talking about it, and without knowing a,b and c I find myself agreeing with Germaine."
whose point is? You're still evading the question being posed. |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | Yeah maybe Zak's not transphobic, but just curious about transgenderism since he doesn't know much about it!
Zak read something on it then... |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Remind me what the question was again? :D |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "I do what I do dude. I question and discuss and openly admit I haven't the first fuckin clue but am willing to learn, offer a thought and take on board what others have to say. "
but you're still pretty dismissive of other people's experiences as transgender because you're biased towards your own |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | are you seriously insinuating that gender and sex are tied together? [2] |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | zak u need to organize your thoughts, you're even more confused about ur beliefs than we are |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Ah right! Cheers wolfy.
Not complicity no. I was implying that people who take on female roles take on the whole kit and kaboodle.
|
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | I'm happy that you're willing to learn and argue but if you don't organize your thoughts and learn about the things you're referring to (e.g. mistaking gender for gender roles, sex with gender, etc), a meaningful discussion about transgender stuff is gonna be hard to make work |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.16.16 | "Not complicity no. I was implying that people who take on female roles take on the whole kit and kaboodle.
"
thats fucking stupid tho |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Please expand on that then potsy?
Cross dressing, female affectations, genital reconstructive surgery, identifying as a woman.
It's just a hornets nest awaiting a slip up so I apologise.
I wish there were more females here on sput so we could have their take on it. |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | I literally don't think there are any active cisgender females on this entire website. Even LilLioness hasn't been around in a while... |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | "Not complicity no. I was implying that people who take on female roles take on the whole kit and kaboodle."
Not sure what exactly you mean by that. I feel gender queer, is that something that doesn't exist in your world view? |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "Suicide is a big issue too unfortunately thats gone unnoticed here thus far from what ive read."
despite it being the topic of the list
surely even that should be enough to show where the problem lies |
Parallels
01.16.16 | A lot of mtf's I know have attempted suicide or contemplated it... I have too... it's not fun to talk about |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Gender queer?
In all honesty and out of respect for you wolfy I had to look it up. I'm getting my head around it at the min. |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | Parallels: it never is, but it must be done. statistics show it: talking about it in an accepting and positive way reduces the risk of committing suicide |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | What about FTMs? Why does no one ever talk about them? I know more FTMs than MTFs honestly. |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | It's true, it's prolly coz MtF transwomen are more common, and are something like 200x times more likely to be murdered due to a transphobic attack. It's no excuse to let out someone from our own community out tho, visibility is important |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | I don't think no one ever talks about them, they're just not as prominent in popular discourse but they're present in other discourse. I guess some of the focus on FTMs stems from the whole "predatory angle" like making it illegal for FTMs to enter female bathrooms because it "endangers children and their development" or "exposes them to possible predators" and all that yahoo. |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | MfF in general get the worst deal of them all but yeah |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Well I never, I'm probabaly gender queer. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | @Zak: I guess "gender fluid" is maybe the most adequate term. |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | You're thinking MTFs again Wolfy.... |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | lol yea @wolf u fuckd up i think
Fourth: yeah! [2] like, there literally a million other things people should care about, but noooooooooooooo |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | Oh yeah, sorry. Accidentally switched abbreviations. But yeah, that's what I meant with MTFs. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | What always gets overlooked in these matters and it never ceases to amaze me is the complete failure to recognise that some people are total cunts.
People do take advantage and pervert for their own needs it happens ALL the time. And that isn't conjuncture I've seen it first hand. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | ^ What specifically are you referring to? |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | The human race |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | what are u even talking about @zak |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | That's not very specific. Who is perverting and taking advantage of what? |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | A world where we do have to bring into question
"the whole "predatory angle" like making it illegal for FTMs to enter female bathrooms because it "endangers children and their development" or "exposes them to possible predators" and all that yahoo."
|
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | The worst part is that studies show that transpeople in general are at the highest risk of being raped and at the lowest probability of being a rapist.
So the fears of transwomen raping women in the bathroom irrationally and directly goes against what actually happens. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | There goes my role play fantasy |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | Gay people are also v. often accused of being pedophiles, sexual predators and even rapists (of women, even). One would suppose you'd be familiar with this kind of bullshit, zak... |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | Also who the fuck mentioned that one cunt Germaine Green, she's exactly the kind of feminist that made me abandon feminism in the first place, I was having a nice day..... |
RosaParks
01.16.16 | now all we need is some commentary from hyper conservatives from the forums like hct or lakes |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | No we don't |
ArsMoriendi
01.16.16 | Can we not talk about Lakes? The fact that an openly gay man can somehow be against almost everything the LGBT community stands for just makes me sad. |
zakalwe
01.16.16 | Yeah Greer was me dude.
I really don't want to get heavy because an Internet site (a music one at that :D) with people who are cool but who I don't actually know is not the place to burden shit of the shittiest proportions but trust me.
Humans, for whatever reason and whatever make-up are capable of doing anything to anyone. |
Parallels
01.16.16 | I don't think FTM's would want to use a women's bathroom, it's just so awkward.
http://www.advocate.com/sites/advocate.com/files/03/Hughesx400d_0.jpg
I don't want to use the guys restroom myself because a guy will walk in and be like "oh shit im so sorry" |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | I'll uncomfortable no matter who's on the bathroom, literally who cares about gendering bathrooms |
Parallels
01.16.16 | lol |
RosaParks
01.16.16 | "The fact that an openly gay man can somehow be against almost everything the LGBT community stands for just makes me sad."
it's not like his thoughts are his own. He hasn't had a single thought posted on the forums that he didn't copy paste from a milo y. video or earlier hct post |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | lol @fourth |
RosaParks
01.16.16 | ok dude |
RosaParks
01.16.16 | *exposes chest* here u go |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "He hasn't had a single thought posted on the forums that he didn't copy paste from a milo y. video"
lol this guy did a debate at my uni and people in the feminist society were getting selfies and shit with him afterwards |
zaruyache
01.16.16 | dunno who that guy is but I just looked him up and he's associated with the Breitbart News Network, so I'm reeeeeallly confused as to why self-described feminists would wanna be in the same hemisphere let alone selfie as someone like that. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | "I'll uncomfortable no matter who's on the bathroom, literally who cares about gendering bathrooms"
123
"lol this guy did a debate at my uni and people in the feminist society were getting selfies and shit with him afterwards"
do I wanna know who that is?
|
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | @zaru: Breitbart (lol, German for "broad/wide beard") News Network? |
anarchistfish
01.16.16 | "do I wanna know who that is?"
don't bother |
Asdfp277
01.16.16 | don't bother [2] |
zaruyache
01.16.16 | As far as I remember bc I don't care to look him up, Breitbart was some conservative talkinghead who was really popular and established a network or something. So I really don't trust anything promoted by anything with this name attached. |
Friday13th
01.16.16 | Milo Yiannopoulos is the man. |
Wolfhorde
01.16.16 | ^ Totally saw that coming. |
Friday13th
01.16.16 | You're catching on, dude. Sargon of Akkad too hehe |
zaruyache
01.16.16 | i just looked at his twitter... :| |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | Twitter literally demoted Milo's account because they didn't like what he had to say. You know its juicy :D Check this interview where he defends the need for free speech. Dang good stuff. https://youtu.be/bBnO00YrHnU?t=4m52s |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | his twitter some dumb stuff |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | So dumb it needs to be censored, right. |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | never said that |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | I know, just twitter's logic I'm guessing. |
Sinternet
01.17.16 | yep it does need to be censored milo is an ignorant little misogynistic arsehole |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | No it doesn't. His silly ideals don't threaten me at all, so |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | get more flustered, straight white boy
;^) |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Nothing like discussing trans rights then threatening to hurt people... |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | Murica |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Of course I'd love for you to be "on my side" but I'm pretty sure Asdfp277 is on our side too though honestly lol
|
Sevengill
01.17.16 | why must there be sides
maybe backsides. those are nice. |
bach
01.17.16 | the only thing i take issue with is ars referring to lakes as a man |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | For a site populated entirely by fucking faggots, we never seem to agree on much |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | I'm pretty sure I'm on Ars' side too, though I support freedom of speech cuz let's be honest, that milo youpopo person ain't gon threaten me or anybody w/ his twitter account lmao, let him have his 5 mins of twitter attention |
ChoccyPhilly
01.17.16 | jeez, man. Kids can be brutal as fuck |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Without freedom of speech we're powerless, of course.
Kids can be brutal as fuck [2] yeah for sure. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | It's also morally repugnant to suppress people's opinions no matter how much you disagree with them |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Fuck Hep, I've got you all wrong. I'm fucked up. My bad. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | "While I agree with that, to an extent, Twitter is a privately owned and operated social media site, that is not governed by the laws of any land. As such, if they wanna censor shit, fuck it."
as a socialist i disagree
but it's equally morally repugnant people spout their opinions without using their brains |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
01.17.16 | "Even LilLioness hasn't been around in a while..."
Lili is not cisgender bro wtf are you smokin' |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | So you're a socialist and not an anarchist then?
Everyone should keep their fucking opinions to themsleves. |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | "On a moral level that's repugnant, because you are allowing his hatemongering to thrive through your indifference"
-- What indifference lmao, I actively work towards making the world more accepting, given my background. I also encounter myself a few milo fanboys here and there and I actively debate them / tell them to fuck off, though I would never censor anything they say
"It's also morally repugnant to suppress people's opinions no matter how much you disagree with them"
-- [2] Hard
"While I agree with that, to an extent, Twitter is a privately owned and operated social media site, that is not governed by the laws of any land. As such, if they wanna censor shit, fuck it. I'll defend with my every and last breath someone's right to free speech as outlined in the United States, or any other constitution, but the internet is fair game"
-- The thing is, freedom of speech is not only a human right, but also a philosophy of life. No matter how idiotic, I always listen to people who disagree with me, and I engage them in discussion / conversation even when I disagree, and I think it's also wrong to make someone's comments disappear because you disagree with them. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | "So you're a socialist and not an anarchist then?"
yh |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | "You are arguing a person's moral obligation to other people vs. basic human rights issues" -- How so? It's an opinion, held by yet another twitter mongoloid. What basic human rights am I violating by letting him have his 5 mins of e-fame? I actively work towards the basic human rights of LGBT+ people too. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | "Lili is not cisgender bro wtf are you smokin'"
When was the last time there was a frequent user who was a cisgender female? Hell or even a transman at least? |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | "Friday, idk u, and u dk me, but if we ever cross paths irl, please know I am going to kick your fucking idiot teeth down your throat"
"While I agree with that, to an extent, Twitter is a privately owned and operated social media site, that is not governed by the laws of any land. As such, if they wanna censor shit, fuck it. I'll defend with my every and last breath someone's right to free speech as outlined in the United States, or any other constitution, but the internet is fair game."
You're right about the legality of twitter's moves, Hep Kat. Not saying they should be prosecuted, just that it's hypocritical and should be mocked. What I find ironic is that you are the only person so far to say something close to the only kind of speech NOT protected by free speech in America, and that is threats of violence. I really don't understand people like you who read completely mainstream, friendly "conservative vs. liberal" style discussion and act like threats of violence is justified. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | friday u can get fucked by a rusty bowling league trophy u festering taint |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | "When was the last time there was a frequent user who was a cisgender female?"
-Balcaen. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | balc, kimm, samshine
others who i forget |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Come the fuck on, are we really going to pretend like Hep is actually threatening you with violenc?. Come on down buddy, you're being ridiculous. You're falling into the "PC thunderpussy" category he so beautifully described earlier. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | asdfp did you used to have a different username or something? balc was a while back. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | also monica was a staffer who wrote 2 reviews and peaced |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | That's my dream. I always wanted to become a useless staff member someday. |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | Oh boy, you're right Zippa haha good catch. I said "close" and of course not haha. I'm just saying it's ironic. Wasn't the reason Hep hates me because I'm some sort of horrible person or something? I don't know, I was never explained. Either way I came for rational discussions and not accusations. Could care less what Hep might project on me. |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | Satellite: nop, always had this username. Also, lmao monica.
Friday: u agree with milo what did u expect |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Maybe he hates you because you're a little bitch. |
Friday13th
01.17.16 | Ouch, so I like a trending social media icon with no other clarifications of my views besides the given free speech and I'm a bitch, should be fucked by trophies, and get my teeth punched. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | "That's my dream. I always wanted to become a useless staff member someday."
the highest honor. just imagine all the tail the staffers get by notoriety alone. fucking legends. |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | I miss lillioness |
Parallels
01.17.16 | lol zippa and satellite |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | "Ouch, so I like a trending social media icon with no other clarifications of my views besides the given free speech and I'm a bitch, should be fucked by trophies, and get my teeth punched."
You got it.
"the highest honor. just imagine all the tail the staffers get by notoriety alone. fucking legends."
I can't imagine what it must have been like to be Chan back in the glory days. Writing pretentious non-reviews based entirely around ambiguous emotional experiences and having hundreds of people suck your dick like you were the second coming of Christ. |
Snake.
01.17.16 | "monica"
didn't she get like harassed off of the site or something? because jom posted that her shoutbox was off limits and posting in it was an immediate ban |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i like chan but fucking lol |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | If that was the case, why not just make her shoutbox inaccessible? |
Satellite
01.17.16 | nah i believe she had some sort of personal tragedy that caused her to stop reviewing right after making staff and just stopped reviewing. idk what happened tbh.
ppl spammed her shoutbox because they didn't like her making staff w/o ever having been a member of the site. there were others too (can't remember their names) but she received the brunt of the abuse.
i think that's what happened at least. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I can kind of understand the frustration considering that so many users earned their Contributor badge through relentless reviewing and hard work. That and the staff here have always been a bit hard-nosed.
I think Sputnik has always been kind of a joke that Jom and Co always took too seriously |
Parallels
01.17.16 | jombombs tho |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | burials |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i get them being upset but taking it out on her was stupid af. it's not like staffers get paid. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I will never forgive the staff for pretending that Los Campesinos were a good band |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I always thought that the difference between Staff and Contributors was that the Staff did get paid, I could be totally wrong though |
Ocean of Noise
01.17.16 | As far as I know staffers don't get paid, no. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | nah, they're just titles.
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/69362/Triumvir-Foul-Triumvir-Foul/
i mean read this and tell me there's any money on the line.
from what i've heard mx breaks even via ads and that's what keeps the site going. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Christ, you've got me there. If that's what it takes to be a staff reviewer I think I can handle it. |
chemicalmarriage
01.17.16 | los campesinos is a hell of a restaurant and the house band happens to be fantastic |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i've never understand why there isn't an editor among the staff/contribs. or news articles for that matter.
for the userbase the pos/neg feature is fine but there's no oversight at those levels and the quality of reviews suffers big time. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Maybe Satellite can be the staff editor! :o |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i mean if nobody gives a shit it's fine but this site could be taken a bit more seriously with just a modicum of effort. i don't even read the reviews anymore. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | satellite gets paid to type and read all day so fuck that noise hard
someone who's submitted at least a single review would be a more viable candidate i think |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | most staffers get there cuz they care about the quality of their reviews, and if they post not-on-par reviews, they can get axed on the next sowing season |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Let's be honest: the quality control at a Contributor+ level has always been a complete joke. The upper echelon staffers have always over-hyped themselves. The supposed rivalry with Pitchfork was utterly cringeworthy. I doubt that the average Pitchfork user even knows that this site exists. Sputnik has always been a user-based site and 'professional' staff contributions over the years have amounted to a heap of jack fucking shit. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I mean some Contributors always pump out quality, like JohnnyOnTheSpot. At least he's the best example. |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | there's a lot of good reviewers here tbh, and who cares about pitchfork lmao |
Satellite
01.17.16 | there are good reviewers among the staff/contribs; nobody's denying that. even the best writers in the world aren't immune to having their shit looked over by a separate set of eyes. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I'm not saying that all contributors are/were shit. For example, my old buddy MetalStyles was one of the most consistent and dedicated writers that Sputnik has ever had. But there has been a lot of hit or miss over the years. And quite a few users were edged out of being contributors based on their occasionally controversial behavior in the comments. A lot of the time it seems like the choose quantity over quality simply because the site is so starved for active writers these days. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | ComeToDaddy, ExplosiveOranges, SowingSeason... to name a few other good ones :) |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Who would take their time to be the Staff Editor? I'm sure if a user who was good at the type of shit would do it, he'd get promoted. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | lol sowingseason gargles dick |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | forever respect for sowingseason, he reviewed the gathering's disclosure >:] |
Satellite
01.17.16 | "Who would take their time to be the Staff Editor?"
who would review for free? it's not that much of a stretch.
"I'm sure if a user who was good at the type of shit would do it, he'd get promoted."
i genuinely suspect the idea has never even been floated around. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I would be a staff editor. That would actually be pretty fun.
I can't remember whether or not I liked Sowingseason but considering Sowing Season is the best Brand New song he can't be all bad. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | ZippaThaRippa for Staff Editor 2016! Someone tell Jom! Someone tell mx! lol |
Satellite
01.17.16 | he's probably a good dude, just an easy target because he takes the site so seriously and has the most stereotypical "sputnik" taste ever.
he got all hot and bothered by my death pool list lol |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I doubt they remember but both Jom and MX have permanently banned three of my accounts.
Quite a lot of people got hot and bothered by that list. It sure turned into a fucking shitfest really fast. "How DARE you???" |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I thought it was harmless fun and then got called a psychopath for thinking so. Oh Sputnik XD |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i genuinely was surprised by that, zip. didn't intend to offend anyone tbh. most ppl took it for the joke that it was tho. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | You know, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. These guys will use any excuse to turn a thread into a philosophizing wank-fest. |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | these LGBT lists are a surefire way to get several hundred comments going. I guess that's a good thing. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i have a feeling this list would've been a disaster 5 years ago
civility ftw |
Satellite
01.17.16 | (says the guy who told another user to "get fucked by a rusty bowling league trophy" itt) |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | "These guys will use any excuse to turn a thread into a philosophizing wank-fest."
fuck off tbh |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | If something like "Sputnik Sexuality Census" had surfaced in 2009 it would have been a shitfest of unbelievable proportions. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | oh man i'm scared to click that one |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | That'd be my list xD
Since you mentioned it: http://www.sputnikmusic.com/list.php?memberid=1034848&listid=159074 |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | I think that's where I found the other trans people on here. It was certainly comforting. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Who Avagantamos and Parallels? |
Satellite
01.17.16 | on one hand, i think it's cool that we have so many lgbt users. on the other, i kinda don't want or need to know what individual users' orientation is because it doesn't really matter in the context of a music review site and isn't going to affect my opinion of anyone. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | I never delved too much into that thread but it didn't seem like it turned out too horribly, am I wrong? |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | There were fights here and there, but Potsy ended up putting all those people in their place lol.
Cntrl+F "LordePots" and read the comments he's replying to if you wanna see the rude shit.
|
Satellite
01.17.16 | lol pots has become such a quarellsome shit
and i mean that in the best way
remember when he won that "best user" tourney? |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Didn't he come in 2nd to demigod! ??? |
Satellite
01.17.16 | the one i'm talking about he beat me in the final round i believe
bastard |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Shit. No offense Ars but it seems like he even put you in your place a little bit. I kinda have some respect for him now. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | He has the effect haha |
Satellite
01.17.16 | pots and i have always gotten along
i suspect i'm in the minority in that regard |
SgtAenema
01.17.16 | does everybody know everybody on this site or |
Satellite
01.17.16 | no, but if you're here long enough you get to know certain users. |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | Some users have big personalities |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I hope my personality is big, y'know to make up for my... |
Satellite
01.17.16 | i like to think i have a larger-than-life persona |
SgtAenema
01.17.16 | ye im pretty new so that makes sense |
ZippaThaRippa
01.17.16 | To make up for your low self esteem? |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Yeah... that's what I meant low self esteem. Right. |
SgtAenema
01.17.16 | :^) |
CrazyDiamond7
01.17.16 | I'm very sorry to hear that.
Now I'm just gonna leave my input at that. |
Parallels
01.17.16 | 2deep4me |
evilford
01.17.16 | Yeah satty's head is pretty far up potsy's ass |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | most of the site is |
evilford
01.17.16 | I think there is more of a special bond there than u give credit for hep |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I try to have my occasional argument with Potsy as to a get some fresh air from His Whorely Eminence's royal derriere. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Yeah, but so does half of the website lol |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Honestly, I don't think so. Maybe the first year I joined, but I'm pretty sure the majority is fairly indifferent to me now. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Well I know you hate me bud ;) |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I've been called worse. |
p4p
01.17.16 | i used to dig lakes when he was like 16/17 but he's too old for me now |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Do you realize how much that makes you sound like a pedophile? |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I've seen a pic of him, he's actually thin like a stick, but looks like an emo fuck with long black hair lmao |
p4p
01.17.16 | lack of affection probz |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | Fuck no, I can and have done better than him.
He used to hit on me though in the community threads lol |
evilford
01.17.16 | Ruthless |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | Long black hair though |
Boyproblems
01.17.16 | Just read. Damn. |
Satellite
01.17.16 | "Yeah satty's head is pretty far up potsy's ass"
would you like to know what he had for breakfast 2 days ago? |
Wolfhorde
01.17.16 | " freedom of speech is not only a human right"
*Only in Europe. |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | I love the "freedom of speech" morons who spout vile, abusive, discriminatory, offensive, unrestrained drivel and say they are exercising their right.
People are such bellends. |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | some of ur comments here could count as discriminatory and offensive tho, I get what ur saying, and I definitely see what ur referring to and how ur comments are different, but still bro
if they threaten someone else's security and well-being, then it's off-limits. but otherwise, let them have their shitass troglodyte opinions, man |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | Come on dude. Maybe there's a bit of ignorance in there on my part but I'm not intentionally causing upset. I've said a few bits and bobs that may cause offence but that certainly wasn't the intention and fuck me I haven't been outright abusive.
I'm talking about people who think they can use racial slurs, stir up hate speech fuelled by false claims and defend the indefensible on the basis that 'it's free speech' that is not what it's about. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | when did lakes turn into a conservative?
"I love the "freedom of speech" morons who spout vile, abusive, discriminatory, offensive, unrestrained drivel and say they are exercising their right."
reminds me of when they screamed bloody murder cos it was reported jews in france were recommended by some religious leader not to wear skullcaps. but muslim headdress is fair game for the french government to literally make illegal. |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | Social justice warriors are braindead, naive cunts who need to be exterminated. They are not humane because they are only thinking in a tunnel visioned utopia of bullshit.
Once they've experience reality only then do they deserve to live, the fuckers need to be educated.
You see what I did there dudes. |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | "need to be exterminated"
Okay there Adolf lol
But I guess in some aspects you're right, a lot of the strong liberals do tend to overdue the whole social rights thing, trying to police speech and all that jazz. At least they're better than the conservatives who want to undo all of the good that has been done though.
|
zakalwe
01.17.16 | Balance is the key. It's what most of us want, we are all equal after all. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | not necessarily balance, but there's danger of dogma on both sides |
p4p
01.17.16 | these social justice whatever are just a bunch of insecure kids with existential crisis anyway, just ignore them. |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | Not necessarily balance? What are you some sought of anarch....oh. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | it's a fallacy to think the centre ground is naturally the best course
I'm not an anarchist though |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | Socialism with a bit of fascism is the way forward.
Ich bein ein dock worker. |
anarchistfish
01.17.16 | meh, no one can say for sure what the best way forward is. but on subjects like this we know the facts and should act accordingly |
zakalwe
01.17.16 | lol. I just want to make absolutley clear a bit of fascism definitely isn't the way forward.
As an ideology socialism is the one for me, it's just a shame humans are such fuck sacks. |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | guys we're really off-topic again |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | I'll get us back on track... SO TRANSGENDER PEOPLE THEY'RE A HOT TOPIC IN AMERICA! |
Sinternet
01.17.16 | socialism is one of those things where if people actually put a little bit of effort to integrating it into a functioning society it would work but people like to be able to elevate their own demographic over anothers in some attempt to feel superior to others |
Sevengill
01.17.16 | YEAH TRANSGENDER PEOPLE AT HOT TOPIC |
Asdfp277
01.17.16 | transgender boy buying invader zim merchandise |
evilford
01.17.16 | Sweet I'm goin to hot topic |
ArsMoriendi
01.17.16 | @Asdfp: Sounds like an Onion article lol |
Parallels
01.17.16 | Lolllll |