demigod!: Pop: Genre Or Label?

tommygun 05.24.14	idk i don't think about this sorta shit
Rowan5215 05.24.14	Good comment tom I pretty much thought that pop was just a label stuck on whatever is popular at a certain time (hence the name "pop" and why the Beatles and Britney Spears can be put under the same label) but as far as today's pop goes then your descriptions are certainly spot on, dem. So you're both right
tommygun 05.24.14	pop is any kind of shallow disposable rubbish ie the beatles
silentstar 05.24.14	yeah but music that is popular basically ties in with everything on your list (primarily ideas of accessibility and hooks) I mean, it's common to call Top 40 "pop music" but we use that tag nonetheless to say that this band has "pop tendencies" I'd go with label since it seems more overencompassing than your definition of it being a genre. the main issue I have with what you said is when you talk about the audience: would that imply that the genre itself is fluid and is left up for change based on trends? interesting concept for sure but it just doesn't work within convention.
Rowan5215 05.24.14	"pop is any kind of shallow disposable rubbish ie the beatles" Ke$ha fan
demigod! 05.24.14	Having said all this, there are many, many underground artists and bands with strong pop sensibilities that exhibit several of the traits listed. Many, if not most of them don't even chart at all yet remain immediate, catchy and are generally fairly easy to digest. But can they still be defined as "pop" since they aren't popular? That's the odd part. There are so many subgenres etc (pop-punk, disco, electropop, power pop, BABYMETAL, etc) to take in that it can almost seem impossible to give it a concrete definition. But what I do know almost certainly is that everything that can be (and is) labelled as "pop" does have at least a few things in common. So where do you land? Do you believe is pop a legitimate and all-encompassing style of music, or just just a label put over any music widely embraced by media and society for the purpose of simple categorization? Discuss!
tempest-- 05.24.14	i had this discussion with my music teacher and i asked him if pop isn't a genre, then what would you tag artists like britney and michael jackson as?
titanslayer 05.24.14	who cares
Rowan5215 05.24.14	This is kinda like trying to define what "art" is, there is no right answer
PunchforPunch 05.24.14	it's both i think
demigod! 05.24.14	it almost seems like a lot of bands and even genres have derived ideas and concepts from things considered "pop". To me, the real defining difference seems to lies with the integrity of the artist. "the main issue I have with what you said is when you talk about the audience: would that imply that the genre itself is fluid and is left up for change based on trends? interesting concept for sure but it just doesn't work within convention." This is true. But often record companies etc. cash in on trends (like grunge or punk rock) to essentially give the people what they want. But even when I look at punk's forefathers (Ramones, Iggy Pop) they all had immediate and memorable approach, but would by no means define themselves as "pop" I suppose at the end of the day it really is a label, but it's such a flexible and variable one that it really makes me wonder if its sort of morphed into its own musical pseudo-style. Short, catchy, and immediate.
deathschool 05.24.14	I think you make some good points. I've always felt that you can tell whether or not a band has "pop sensibilities". Incidentally, most of what I listen to does.
Skull917 05.24.14	There's rock, jazz, classical, electronic and music from around the world. Everything else falls into these categories.
Calc 05.24.14	ask him what he would call the kind of music Micheal Jackson performed pretending that he wasn't famous. Once he says the wrong answer or doesn't have an answer there's your point proven
gryndstone 05.24.14	it's a label. Nothing more than a song or artist that gets popular. If they choose to identify as 'pop' music or not is solely up to them, but top 40 music always has a genre to fall into other than pop.
PappyMason 05.24.14	Really interesting discussion. I think I'm in the label camp. I think the term has come to mean something quite disposable, and for some artists that could be described as 'pop' or having pop tendencies that is unfair. Of course, music and trends are always changing.
Skull917 05.24.14	^ Even jazz and classical and world music. Can you imagine that? It's a fucking abomination..
KrazyKris 05.24.14	^just because it has none of those useless names doesn't mean it's not there.
Keyblade 05.24.14	"^ Even jazz and classical and world music. Can you imagine that? It's a fucking abomination.." Come on, don't be that guy
treeqt. 05.24.14	there is unpopular pop music thank you thread can be closed
ChoccyPhilly 05.24.14	I think you could also talk about Pop music culture as well as pop music itself. I completely agree with all points made above. Had an a discussion with some bloke about The Beatles being pop and he refused to see points from a strictly musical point of view that the Beatles are actually pop
treeqt. 05.24.14	"I've never heard of classical pop or world pop." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufp-BIq_MjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ7oROlf5ys wasn't that hard now was it
KrazyKris 05.24.14	The major problem with the term pop is probably the negative connotation it has. You won't find many artists who would describe their music as pop, simply because it's rather bad reputation. But I agree with all your points, except that I'm not sure if I would call it a separate genre. If so, it is very small and almost completely limited to manufactured solo artist or boy/girl groups, with some rare exceptions. For everything else pop seems like an affix to other genres just to somehow show it's more accessible than other artists in it. Quite good examples were it's easy to say which is the pop album and which isn't would be Weezer - Blue Album & Pinkerton Nirvana - Bleach & Nevermind
AmericanFlagAsh 05.24.14	There is unpopular pop music [2] Are not all genres hard to define accurately. I mean, they all melt into one another.
Wafflez 05.24.14	Pop has absolutely nothing to do with being popular just like death metal has nothing to do with dead people.
NordicMindset 05.24.14	if burzum had a #1 would we be calling them pop
InFlamesWeThrash666 05.24.14	Pop has absolutely nothing to do with being popular just like death metal has nothing to do with dead people. That wasn't a very accurate example tbh
Wafflez 05.24.14	^I meant to say, just because pop comes from the word popular it doesn't literally mean "music that is popular". It's a kind of music with certain features and qualities. There are lots of obscure and unpopular artists that can be described as "pop"
ChoccyPhilly 05.24.14	You could almost think of 'pop' being used in the same way that 'Indie' is used
ArsMoriendi 05.24.14	Yeah, I'm pretty sure pop started out as a label for pop artists sometime in the early 1900s but evolved into its own separate genre by at least he 1960s. Accessible, watered down versions of other genres, usually easy on the ears. etc. = pop
treeqt. 05.24.14	yeah im pretty sure popular music wasn't a thing in the early 1900s
Relinquished 05.24.14	serious lack of music history education itt
ArsMoriendi 05.24.14	By early 1900s, I meant like anything in the first half of the century, but whatever you get my point.
anarchistfish 05.24.14	genre
GuanoBumbershoot 05.24.14	Like your list, you could really find a bunch of ways to look at it, but at the end of the day I'd just call 'er an umbrella term like indie, metal, etc.
ChoccyPhilly 05.24.14	I think metal would be more related to sound, or more specifically, timbre. I see pop more related to formulaic structure, catchiness and eagerness to jump into a chorus
Rsetness9 05.24.14	wikipedia says its a genre so it must be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
jsaf7 06.07.14	i think the term "pop" can be used as a relative term also, And is often used to say how accessible something is in comparison to other artists in the same genre.. Same with "indie". Although i don't really think it's fair to measure the quality of an artists' music based on how "pop" or how "indie" they are. Good music is good music period. And for those of you who are saying "top 40 music always has another genre to fall into besides pop", then what would you consider artists like the Backstreet Boys or other boy/girl groups to be besides pop?
ChoccyPhilly 06.07.14	let's not forget Aphex Twin - Windowlicker achieved 16 in the charts and that's definitely not pop! Verse chorus verse structure. Catchy, focus on the chorus. That's what a pop song is to me, regardless of the instruments that make this up
BMDrummer 06.07.14	I don't know, Pink Floyd isn't particularly poppy at all, yet they scored hits back in the day.
treeqt. 06.07.14	all that relevance w0w~
ChoccyPhilly 06.07.14	Popular music isn't necessarily pop. I wouldn't call some radiohead songs pop but they get no.1 albums
scorpiusx 06.07.14	According to the Sputnik charts, MBV's "Loveless" and Talk Talk's "Laughing Stock" are both pop albums. Where do they fit into this equation? ;P
ChoccyPhilly 06.07.14	Ehh just some faggots tagging it not fully knowing what pop music is and getting it confused with pop music culture
treeqt. 06.07.14	they are pop albums
treeqt. 06.07.14	some faggots not fully knowing pop music culture
ChoccyPhilly 06.07.14	Actually yeah, I just realised what I said. Nevermind
scorpiusx 06.07.14	Also, I believe that Elliott Smith once said in an interview that while many labeled his work as folk music, he considered the songs he wrote to be pop songs. Now obviously Smith's work is far removed from the work of say Katy Perry, and isn't "watered down" or "unauthentic" or whatever one might say about music you hear on Top 40 radio. To me pop music is simply music that puts a strong emphasis on melodies and hooks, and generally has some degree of universal accessibility to it. That's not to say that it panders necessarily, but simply that anyone could potentially relate to it.
treeqt. 06.07.14	elliott smith is quite watered down tbh from the 2 or 3 songs i heard at least
scorpiusx 06.07.14	I guess that's a disagreement that I and probably several other people will have with you. Also I'd really like to know how a song like "After the Flood" is considered a pop song, or to be on a pop album haha.
deathschool 06.07.14	Elliott Smith... Watered down. That's actually hilarious.
treeqt. 06.07.14	sounds like a explosions in the sky song essentially a pop group q.e.d.
treeqt. 06.07.14	dude plays some guitar and sings to it how is that not watered down lmao it's almost like you take that as a bad thing
scorpiusx 06.07.14	Oh you mean watered down in the lo-fi or minimalistic sense rather than the "pandering" sense. I guess I could see that perspective.
deathschool 06.07.14	Elliott has orchestras in his later work and his delivery is always extremely emotionally potent. Don't argue with QT, scorpius. Waste of time.
Verm 06.07.14	Who cares, 1,3 and 5 rulz, 2 and 4 are crimes against humanity
scorpiusx 06.07.14	I was referring to his earlier work lol, but yeah you've got a point.
treeqt. 06.07.14	his delivery is emotionally potent so it can't be watered down (the more you know)
deathschool 06.07.14	Well, seeing as how potent and watered down are antonyms, I'd say yeah.
treeqt. 06.07.14	so are dead and alive :^)
deathschool 06.07.14	Why can't I stay mad at you?
treeqt. 06.07.14	cause im fly af
treeqt. 06.07.14	tbh
YakNips 06.07.14	cause everytime we touch i get this feeling and everytime we kiss i swear i can fly
Havey 06.07.14	shut the fuck up
scorpiusx 06.07.14	Can't you hear my heart beat fast I want this to last Need you by my side
treeqt. 06.07.14	those naruto AMV feels
scorpiusx 06.07.14	That song saved my life.
YakNips 06.07.14	it was actually Bleach AMVs for me
titanslayer 06.07.14	If you think about it a genre is a label so...
JSJC 07.23.14	A pandering in sound towards a current demographic based on social trends and the general "mood" of the intended audience but there are good non pandering pop music out there.
Keyblade 07.23.14	"but there are good non pandering pop music out there." Doesn't this render your definition meaningless?
deathschool 07.23.14	Everything is meaningless. He was working his way to that point.
treeqt. 07.23.14	"A pandering in sound towards a current demographic based on social trends and the general "mood" of the intended audience " applies to almost all music tbh
Keyblade 07.23.14	Pretty much
Skull917 07.23.14	Yes, but with pop most of the time it's skeletal, there's no reason behind the instrumentation, it's just music for the sake of having pleasant music (albeit made to be catchy and instant) and the lyrics are just written to appeal to their audience and to be easy for them to associate with the theme of the music (most of the time - love and break up, having fun; it's simple, it's safe, it's not going to offend; or in some cases the pop artist might go for controversy just for the publicity), it's just air wrapped up in pretty package. The main purpose of pop is to make profit, it's in the description of the genre. These characteristics might be present in other genres, there isn't a pure genre of music devoid of commercialism, but here they are prevalent. And considering music have been present in almost all cultures since the dawn of civilization and have become a part of our lives, it can be said that pop is capitalizing on our need for music. The thing is that this is not an anomaly, it is present in everything not just music, so the question is does that make it acceptable?
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	^ Not all pop songs are created simply to make money. In popular music culture, perhaps, but most bands write pop songs due to how simple it is to write, and there's nothing wrong with that. Those that also tie in with pop music culture just so happen to be awfully generic and sometimes void of emotion as you mentions above.
Skull917 07.23.14	True but most of those bands were probably influenced by another big pop artist. While there are bands that are not pushed, don't have an agenda and this is their music I am hard pressed to understand how can you be satisfied and really express your ideas with that kind of material. Looking on the side of the listener it's almost like a scam. Most people don't care to get knowledgeable about this aspect of their life - they get raised with pop music and die with pop music, without ever encountering anything else because the music world is flooded with it.
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	I was brought up with solely pop music and I find it quite stale now. Even a song I think is alright will always be more limited in its replay value compared to a song with a more complex and thought out structure. I'm well aware that there are people who treat it like a job rather than a passion and sure, it shows in the music but I think it's safe to say that it's actually quite hard to filter out who is being 'genuine'. I think the worst thing that clouds the demographic of pop music culture is how ignorant most of the listeners are. I try to have thoughtful discussions with friends about it, with people who really love music for what it is and they're just not interested in anything outside their sphere of pop. Whether it be longer songs, slower songs, less accessible instrumentation or just something different, if it's not something they've heard before, they don't want to know. Which is silly, cos every music fan should be driven to explore as many forms as the art as possible right? Sadly, pop music culture does not enforce this ethic as much as it really should
Salvidian 07.23.14	"Which is silly, cos every music fan should be driven to explore as many forms as the art as possible right? Sadly, pop music culture does not enforce this ethic as much as it really should" ...why?
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	Actually that was a bit rash. What I'm trying to say is that anyone who genuinely loves music and is something that affects their life on a daily basis should explore the universe of music out there. Obviously this depends on the person and stuff but yeah. I'm not wording this very well.
Skull917 07.23.14	What I've noticed is it is hard to make someone interested about something unless he finds it (and like it) on his own, of which I am guilty at times. In the case of pop fans it is tough because their whole culture is based on familiarity.
titanslayer 07.23.14	"Which is silly, cos every music fan should be driven to explore as many forms as the art as possible right?" No. That's like saying everyone that likes movies should be driven to look for weird obscure movies to explore the art as much as possible.
treeqt. 07.23.14	no that's film note the difference xD
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	Yes, what skull said. Also, pop music culture rarely sees something completely different from say, a less accessible genre, take the limelight.
NordicMindset 07.23.14	Pop has a definitive sound too
Salvidian 07.23.14	Well Wikipedia exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
Calc 07.23.14	this question is like asking: an apple, a fruit or a food?
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	Pop music isn't bad by any means. I had a friend who got angry cos I told her The 1975 was pop and didn't want to associate her favorite band with "true pop", which is one direction and Justin bieber. I think some people find it cool to hate on pop
PunchforPunch 07.23.14	"true pop"
Salvidian 07.23.14	yeah really.
Keyblade 07.23.14	ITT people who take their hobby too seriously and expect other people to as well
ILJ 07.23.14	It's hard to say really. I think it's mainly in a genre sense. When somebody who is musically knowledgeable tells me that something is pop, I immediately know what kind of sound they're alluding to, at least in a modern sense. I think there's pop sensibilities like some people already mentioned, but I think it refers more to a sound. I don't often here people referring to Mumford or Bon Iver as pop, and I doubt that if some "obscure" group that makes music quite outside the traditional top 40 sound, say Death Grips or Burial or something, I don't think that people would suddenly start referring to them as pop music. I think pop refers to a defined sound, but that that "defined sound" is constantly shifting as music that is generally popular has a gradual shift in sound.
ChoccyPhilly 07.23.14	really? I hear loads of people say Mumford and Sons are pop. I think it's more a style, because you could easily get a pop metal song and you can clearly hear the general qualities such as the catchy chorus and stuff
NorthernSkylark 07.23.14	lol, coldplay are rockers all the way pop does not exist
demigod! 07.24.14	dang im sorry for this!
Trebor. 07.24.14	lol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the waylol, coldplay are rockers all the way
NorthernSkylark 07.24.14	warhol is the only pop I know