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Old 06-28-2015, 05:33 AM   #74521
Volumnius Flush
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The political potency of the "I'm against slavery" argument that liberals depend on is not in its pretensions to humanity but, to highlight by contradistinction that your opponent does support slavery.

This impugns all Southern people as continuing to be personally morally culpable for the sin of slavery based on a provincial argument about a region in which someone lives.

That's probably a sound hypothesis to a Northerner who has never visited the American South, but in 26 years, I've known many people from all over the country who moved here, from Ohio, New York, and many other places who can't truly be categorized with the 'guilty', if one may truly be guilty for something centuries ago which they had nothing to do with. My family also comes from both a slave state and a non-slave state; am I only half-culpable?
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:41 AM   #74522
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Are all Southern people who moved to the North, and generations of their descendants now free of the sin of slavery? This strange system of distribution of culpability 'points' seems very arbitrary. Do I become less culpable as a member of the United Methodist Church, which fought vigorously in several countries for decades to win abolition?

This task of assigning guilt and regional superiority of the North over the South is the sort of attitude that led to such bitter regional divisions that made the Civil War possible, and continuing today, will make another civil war inevitable.

I support any Texas effort asserting rights of secession and abrogating Supreme Court decisions in the Republic of Texas.

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Old 06-28-2015, 05:54 AM   #74523
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Well, in my experience, liberals tend to group ALL white people together as having been guilty of slavery, because of the minute chance any of their ancestors actually did hold slaves. And I see nothing wrong with levying a bulk of their contempt towards the South, because they were the only region of the United States who as a whole wanted to defend that institution
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #74524
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In this section South Carolina clearly outlines what pissed them off, mainly, unconstitutional attempts by the North to subvert the institution of slavery. I'm sure the rest of the Confederacy shared similar sentiments
The key word is 'unconstitutional'.
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:19 PM   #74525
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Notice how it is only politically correct to go back in the past and criticize white people. You couldn't criticize a black man if their grandpa was a child molesting rapist serial killer, but if you had white ancestors that simply lived in the south during slavery, you are akin to a Hitler sympathizer.

Africa and Mexico were apparently sinless utopias without slavery throughout their existence until the white man showed up, according to Ando.
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:33 PM   #74526
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in before "b-but whites did it worse!"
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:46 PM   #74527
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Africa and Mexico were apparently sinless utopias without slavery throughout their existence until the white man showed up, according to Ando.
nobody says or thinks this.

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So much for slavery not being an economic necessity.
it was economically beneficial for the plantation aristocracy, but it was not "necessary" in the sense that the work could not have been done by freed labour. like, you know, how it was following reconstruction.

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I said the war wasn't primarily over slavery, but thanks for posting a source that confirms what i've been saying.
what was it about if not slavery?

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Morality is relative you 'putz', all im saying is your morality makes you look like a complete fucking tool and a childish hypocrite, because we all know if you had to actually work in a farm to eat, you would choose to enslave people to. Its nice you think you are God's gift to the earth because you can open your mouth and form the words "I DON LIKE SLAVERY", but really you are just a self righteous tool who pats yourself on the back for simply existing in a better time than other people.
i don't believe that you think morality is truly relative, or at least you don't have the courage of your convictions. if you really do think morality is relative, you cannot complain about the immorality of (a) eating animals (b) the welfare state.

for what it's worth, i'm happy thinking i'm a better person than slaveholders.

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You still are having trouble with the concept of PAST VS PRESENT. I never said I endorse what the South did, im just saying the idea that the Civil War was fought primarily over slavery is ignorant as fuck, that slavery was not 1/1000th as bad as bleeding hearts like you make it out to be, and that desperate times called for desperate measures, and its not really surprising that humans treated each other like shit when they were dying at the average age of 25 if they could manage to not starve for that long. You need a reality check you snob.
(a) slavery is per se evil;
(b) plantation slavery was empirically brutal;
(c) what desperate times and why did that justify enslavement of 4 million people?
(d) the average life expectancy was not 25 and if you survived childhood, life expectancy was not that dissimilar to modern life expectancies

seems very strange to oppose using people as means rather than ends except when it's financially expedient not to

Last edited by Smokey D; 06-28-2015 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 01:17 AM   #74528
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Um, the reconstruction era is supposed to prove slavery was not an economic necessity for the South? You realize that the south became mired in poverty after the civil war, when it was once an international economic powerhouse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era#Material_devastation_of_the_Sou th_in_1865

"Per capita income for white southerners declined from $125 in 1857 to a low of $80 in 1879."

^^^clearly it wasn't just slave owners or 'the plantation aristocracy' that was hurt by ending slavery.



The war was about the federal government expanding its power past the limitations set by the Constitution, slavery was only one example of the federal government overstepping its authority.

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if you really do think morality is relative, you cannot complain about the immorality of (a) eating animals (b) the welfare state
. yeah, i can. Just because i understand how people arrive at many different moralities doesn't mean I endorse every single hypocritical/asinine form of morality like 'im such a good person, i frown when I read about slave owners and tell anyone who will hear ' i dont like slavery!', *crams burger in mouth*, donate to the welfare state that I profit from you evil white asshole'

slavery is not per se evil, what a dumb thing to say. Is a human owning a dog evil? Is slave labor in prisons evil? Is keeping a mentally ill patient restrained evil?

obviously not, and this is basically how people viewed blacks at the time, as animals who were better off in restraints. I mean i guess you could pat yourself on the back for knowing 'all humans are created equal' or 'the world is round' when in the past people thought it was flat and blacks were monkeys, but you just look like a self righteous douche by doing so.

It's like, we don't need a lecture about how smart you are for knowing the germ theory of disease every time you wash your hands. Theres certain things people take for granted in this day and age, IE 'slavery is BAD', its just only the douchey left who needs to go insinuating things about the ancestors of slave owners, or trying to tarnish the image of those in the past for doing what was common and seen as justified by God.

I never said slavery was justifiable, I just said its not impressive for some chicken necked ninny to act like you are superior to slave owners on that basis alone, because all you are doing is disregarding everything hard they had to go through, and how you didn't have to do jack shit to survive.

I notice you didn't have a response to how you constantly make excuses for why black people commit crimes when they live in poverty, but you can't seem to understand how white people would enslave people when they live in poverty. It's like you just conveniently forget what you were once arguing anytime it contradicts what you are arguing for now.

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Old 06-30-2015, 03:43 PM   #74529
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slavery is not per se evil, what a dumb thing to say. Is a human owning a dog evil? Is slave labor in prisons evil? Is keeping a mentally ill patient restrained evil?
how on earth did you answer all of these questions "obviously not"
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Old 06-30-2015, 04:41 PM   #74530
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because a human owning a dog is not evil, thats how
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:22 PM   #74531
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slavery is not per se evil, what a dumb thing to say. Is a human owning a dog evil
not slavery [note implication that keeping animals is equivalent to keeping humans -- "but I'm not racist" Hilary]

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Is slave labor in prisons evil?
yes

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Is keeping a mentally ill patient restrained evil?
not slavery, but probably in most cases.

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obviously not, and this is basically how people viewed blacks at the time, as animals who were better off in restraints. I mean i guess you could pat yourself on the back for knowing 'all humans are created equal' or 'the world is round' when in the past people thought it was flat and blacks were monkeys, but you just look like a self righteous douche by doing so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States

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Um, the reconstruction era is supposed to prove slavery was not an economic necessity for the South? You realize that the south became mired in poverty after the civil war, when it was once an international economic powerhouse.
white workers' wages fell once they had to compete with black free labour? shocking. not sure a decline in the white former slaveholding economy proves that slavery was somehow necessary. Note, in case it's not obvious, I'm not disputing that slavery was advantageous to the slaveholders.

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The war was about the federal government expanding its power past the limitations set by the Constitution, slavery was only one example of the federal government overstepping its authority.
Those are second order questions though. The acts they complained of related to the federal government's intolerance of slavery.

PS I think you're positively insane if you think the fact that people believe what they're doing is good precludes us from criticising it.

Last edited by Smokey D; 06-30-2015 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 11:30 PM   #74532
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Originally Posted by HillaryClitTounge View Post
because a human owning a dog is not evil, thats how
ergo, the morality of prison slavery. what
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Old Yesterday, 12:30 AM   #74533
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Originally Posted by HillaryClitTounge View Post
Notice how it is only politically correct to go back in the past and criticize white people. You couldn't criticize a black man if their grandpa was a child molesting rapist serial killer, but if you had white ancestors that simply lived in the south during slavery, you are akin to a Hitler sympathizer.

Africa and Mexico were apparently sinless utopias without slavery throughout their existence until the white man showed up, according to Ando.
yeah this never happens
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Old Yesterday, 12:34 AM   #74534
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i didn't care about the confederate flag before it became an issue and now i want the image of it burned from my fucking mind so i don't have to see people sharing it on facebook every five fucking seconds. no one fucking cares if u like or don't like a flag jesus christ (this is completely unrelated to my last comment. just needed a place to rant about something loosely related to politics)

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Old Yesterday, 02:10 AM   #74535
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u mad bro?

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Old Yesterday, 04:25 AM   #74536
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"trying to tarnish the image of those in the past for doing what was common and seen as justified by God"

does the word jihad mean nothing to you
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Old Yesterday, 06:22 AM   #74537
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america


discuss.
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Old Yesterday, 07:42 AM   #74538
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seems a little reductionist - and probably also wrong - to say that all our problems are traceable to whatever he means by "anti-intellectualism"
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Old Today, 03:53 AM   #74539
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Not sure slavery was ever a term exclusively for humans. But you do make a lot of bullshit up and then hide behind the 'oh im so much better than you, im a liberal who thinks slavery is bad' card.


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yes
'slavery in prison is evil, cuz smokey said so'

Man it gets old just hearing you state your opinion then make some douchey patronizing comment that implies you are better than me for having a different opinion.

like, is the abolition link just you being a complete douche at this point? or do you actually have a reason for posting it that relates to what I said? are you actually saying that because some people wanted to end slavery, that means black people were not widely seen as inferior at the time?
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white workers' wages fell once they had to compete with black free labour? shocking. not sure a decline in the white former slaveholding economy proves that slavery was somehow necessary. Note, in case it's not obvious, I'm not disputing that slavery was advantageous to the slaveholders.
Notice that you conveniently skipped the main point of what I said, the 'south went from an international economic powerhouse to an impoverished shithole' part.

You would expect some drop in white workers wages, but not a drop to half of what whites made in the north. DERP THATS NOT SHOCKING DERP
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I think you're positively insane if you think the fact that people believe what they're doing is good precludes us from criticising it.
There's a huge difference between saying you wouldn't do something (IE own slaves) today, now that you know about things like genetics, DNA, and anthropology; and insinuating people are moral-less barbarians for owning slaves because they didn't live exactly like you do in year 2015. My opinion is the former, yours is the latter.

I find the parallel with eating animals so great, you still haven't responded to it because you are so stumped.

You say some intelligent life isn't worthy of your consideration. Thats exactly what slave owners did. In fact, they called black people "ANIMALS" as a way of justifying their suffering.

b-b-b-b-b-but lots of people eat animals today and say its ok

yeah, lots of people had slaves back then, and said it was ok. you are a complete hypocrite.

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