Education

[Det_Nosnip]

Education seems to be a topic that hasn't discussed in quite enough detail here, so I thought I'd get something started. What is everyone's opinion on the current state of public education? Being American, I'm probably going to be able to speak more about the American education system, but I invite people from other countries to discuss their own education systems as well, and perhaps from there we can compare to see why America is lagging behind in certain areas.

So, here are some questions to think about:

1) How do you feel about your country's education system? Is it doing well, is it lagging behind...do you see the situation improving based upon the current administration's policies, or do you see it getting worse?

2) If you feel that the education system is failing, what do you believe is contributing to that? Conversely, if your education system is doing well, what would you primarily attribute that success to? For example, in America, I would say that the current state of education is pretty poor. Who is responsible for this...the Federal Government/this administration? Local City/State Government/s? School administrations? Families/parents of the students?

3) If you feel that the situation can be improved, how would you do it?

Hopefully we can get a wide range of different replies based upon the spread of age groups and ideologies on here.

[ARBITER]

too much stress on liberal arts and not enough on sciences

[griftadan]

i'd prefer a voucher system to public schools if we are going to go with public funding.

[Mr. Ron]

Originally Posted by Det_Nosnip

Education seems to be a topic that hasn't discussed in quite enough detail here, so I thought I'd get something started. What is everyone's opinion on the current state of public education? Being American, I'm probably going to be able to speak more about the American education system, but I invite people from other countries to discuss their own education systems as well, and perhaps from there we can compare to see why America is lagging behind in certain areas.

So, here are some questions to think about:

1) How do you feel about your country's education system? Is it doing well, is it lagging behind...do you see the situation improving based upon the current administration's policies, or do you see it getting worse?

2) If you feel that the education system is failing, what do you believe is contributing to that? Conversely, if your education system is doing well, what would you primarily attribute that success to? For example, in America, I would say that the current state of education is pretty poor. Who is responsible for this...the Federal Government/this administration? Local City/State Government/s? School administrations? Families/parents of the students?

3) If you feel that the situation can be improved, how would you do it?

Hopefully we can get a wide range of different replies based upon the spread of age groups and ideologies on here.

1) I think the public school system is horrible as always. Far too many children grow up not even knowing where to locate America on a labled map!

2) I believe what is contributing to this is overall lazyness. America needs to change morally and socially to improve in the schools.

3) Stated above, the change must begin with the people.

[mcmurray]

Originally Posted by ARBITER

too much stress on liberal arts and not enough on sciences

Yep.

In my school many are what I'd consider semi-illiterate (they can't write basic sentences, they can't pronounce what I'd consider to be basic words, etcetera). I think the average grade in the school is a C which I find quite disgusting. I have "A"s in all my classes and I don't even have to try.

The teachers in my school are the lowest paid in the entire US, even including DC.

The students are lazy. The teachers seem ineffective. There is an over emphasis on extracurricular programs.

[Cecillianne]

Originally Posted by ARBITER

too much stress on liberal arts and not enough on sciences

Where do you live? Here is the other way around. Scholarships are offered to science students and almost nil to art students.

1. I think my country's education system blows. We study far too long. Our high school cert (SPM) is received at age 17, and this examination is only equivalent to UK's GCSE's. To get the same standard as SATS, International Baccalaureate, A-Levels, etc, our students have to study for another extra 2 years. Meaning that we complete our education at worldwide high school standard at age 19 or late 18. Students are text-book and exam oriented, do route learning, forget almost everything they learn the instant they finish high school. Your grade depends completely on the final written exams, courseworks are a joke and students who excel academically are socially retarded. The Education Ministry doesn't improve the system, they further complicate it and make it harder for the students by reformatting papers every year. By the way, students are 'encouraged' to take nothing less than 9 subjects.

2. The system isn't failing, but it's not working at all. Malaysian students excel in universities overseas, but when they come back or stay overseas they can't get a job because they keep sucking at interviews. This is because the government emphasizes too much on the students to get A's instead of excelling as an all-rounder. I blame the Education Ministry for this kind of pressure and the lack of competent graduates this country produces. Science students are given priority, art students are given shit. You'll instantly get looked down on if you say you're studying Arts/Commerce instead of Biology/Physics/Chemistry.

3. I'd instantly revamp the system. SPM is abolished. I'll adopt the British education system, GCSE's and A-levels. Grading depends on a series of exams instead of one major exam, so students can regulate their marks instead of route learning.

Strange. The system here underemphasizes extra-curricular activities. Students here are way overworked, swamped with homework, have tons of reading to do and attend tuition (extra classes) every bloody day, at least an hour a day.

[griftadan]

social studies were a joke in my school, even in the AP program.

[Mr. Ron]

Originally Posted by griftadan

social studies were a joke in my school, even in the AP program.

Mine too. In some schools they want to SKIP the American Revolution!

[griftadan]

they also did a horrible job on post ww2 world history

[Det_Nosnip]

Originally Posted by .:~ Route 1 ~:.

2) I believe what is contributing to this is overall lazyness. America needs to change morally and socially to improve in the schools.

Well, what is your definition of "moral change"? How are morals coming into play?

3) Stated above, the change must begin with the people.

Which people, though? All of these administrations are made up of people, after all.

Having been a part of the Austin Independent School district for a little while, I've already begun noticing a few of the problems. One thing that I definitely feel is a problem is overcrowding in schools and enormous class sizes. Believe me, it's not easy to get 30 kids to sit down and shut up, let alone to actually learn anything. The problems with overcrowding in schools are fairly obvious: administrators have a hell of a time keeping track of all of the students, and many sneak out of school or don't show up to class...teachers are too busy trying to make sure the kids don't kill eachother and have no energy left to teach anything, and students who have difficulty understanding the material easily get lost in the crowd and either don't receive the attention they need or, devoid of supervision, stop paying attention.

This problem is also compounded by the fact that it is disproportionately present in certain areas over others, and those schools that tend to be the most crowded also end up having kids from the poorest economic background. As a substitute teacher, I've encountered a wide range of different schools throughout the town, which has really illuminated for me some of the disparities. Building more schools in the rougher districts would certainly be a step...if they can find the teachers and administrators to fill those buildings. It's somewhat of a Catch-22: Many teachers do not want to work in those districts because of the adverse conditions, while many of those adverse conditions are caused by the fact that the schools are unable to find enough teachers to fill their positions.

[ghettoeddo]

i live in arizona. famous (or infamous) for its extremely poor academic track record.
out of the 50 states, we're 48th or 49th in education.

[Helmet]

My high school is pretty ridiculous. The average GPA is around 1.80. Of course, much of this can be attributed to students and their socio-economic status, but it's amazing how bad the material in the classes are.

[lfantwister]

I go to one of LA's better private schools, and I still have lots of complaints about it, especially in the humanities. Everyone is so focused on grades that they don't retain information--they learn it for the test and forget it. I think it's more important to learn less but learn it better than to learn more but recall it poorly.

[griftadan]

man i wish i went to an easy highschool. at mine, if you don't have a 4.0 you're not even in the top 15% of your class.

[Danish]

Originally Posted by griftadan

i'd prefer a voucher system to public schools if we are going to go with public funding.

Education is a public asset and should remain in soley public hands.

[griftadan]

no. i'm good with not having government controled curriculum and natural innefeciency forced upon me.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by griftadan

no. i'm good with not having government controled curriculum and natural innefeciency forced upon me.

If you want to learn what you want, then learn what you want. Any institutionalized education whether run by private or public interests will make you conform to a particular brand of education philosophy that its charter adheres to. Nothing's stopping you from painting on your own time and then applying to an open-cirriculum liberal arts college that doesn't care about the SATs if all the torture of "natural inefficiency" proves to be all too much. To the opposite degree, nothing stops you from excelling at a level above and beyond that which is expected by the system, should you be properly motivated. It's the government's responsibility to provide the service, and it's up to the children and their parents to make appropriate and intelligent use of it, not those of the governments or of private school administrators.

In the meantime, if more highly advantaged people quit whining about how many taxes they have to pay and just give what they owe the government for putting their kids through public school, these schools might be better funded and better run, providing kids from low socio-economic backgrounds an incentive to succeed rather than an apathetic lack of care or hope. Maybe. To be honest, it really depends on the quality of the parenting to do this, which has gone WAY down in America. Every parent refuses to discipline their children and teach them public manners, and sues anybody else who should have the rightful authority to do so as well, such as teachers. If anything, we've got many more stupid parents in this country ruining education more than we do stupid kids or administrators or teachers.

EDIT: It strikes me that in the wake of all of the unrest involving children's deaths due to parental abuse in New York City of late, I was wondering if anyone here has ever studied the correlation between perpetuation of socio-economic hardship and high birthrates and large families amongst those most ill-suited to provide for them. I would like to understand what factors prompt this apparent tendency amongst lower-class people in a manner that's not stereotypical and adheres to hard data and evidence. If anything, I'd say the utter lack of progress in both education and motivation amongst kids of all backgrounds who experience it has its roots in unfocused parental and family histories brought on by low socio-economic standing. But I don't know anything about this.

[t-rex]

is any one else against compulsory schooling?

[Cain]

Originally Posted by t-rex

is any one else against compulsory schooling?

I'd rather not have a bunch of illiterate, unaware retards with no manners or sense of social protocol running around, which is exactly what you'd have without it, I feel. Even the youngest years of schooling provide important services way beyond learning what "2+2" equals.

Kindergarten, for instance, is an invaluable structuring experience that teaches children how to obey social norms and respond to authority, prerequisites for any sort of civilized society's ability to function peacefully. It's hard-edged, sure, especially for five-year-olds who are probably as little interested in regimentation as possible, but just think of what sort of people they'd grow into without the simple idiocy of kindergarten. And you want to speculate that it would be positive to not have any form of nationally-required schooling at all?

I'd love to hear your argument, though, if you have one to provide.

[griftadan]

Originally Posted by Cain

If you want to learn what you want, then learn what you want. Any institutionalized education whether run by private or public interests will make you conform to a particular brand of education philosophy that its charter adheres to. Nothing's stopping you from painting on your own time and then applying to an open-cirriculum liberal arts college that doesn't care about the SATs if all the torture of "natural inefficiency" proves to be all too much. To the opposite degree, nothing stops you from excelling at a level above and beyond that which is expected by the system, should you be properly motivated. It's the government's responsibility to provide the service, and it's up to the children and their parents to make appropriate and intelligent use of it, not those of the governments or of private school administrators.

In the meantime, if more highly advantaged people quit whining about how many taxes they have to pay and just give what they owe the government for putting their kids through public school, these schools might be better funded and better run, providing kids from low socio-economic backgrounds an incentive to succeed rather than an apathetic lack of care or hope. Maybe. To be honest, it really depends on the quality of the parenting to do this, which has gone WAY down in America. Every parent refuses to discipline their children and teach them public manners, and sues anybody else who should have the rightful authority to do so as well, such as teachers. If anything, we've got many more stupid parents in this country ruining education more than we do stupid kids or administrators or teachers.

EDIT: It strikes me that in the wake of all of the unrest involving children's deaths due to parental abuse in New York City of late, I was wondering if anyone here has ever studied the correlation between perpetuation of socio-economic hardship and high birthrates and large families amongst those most ill-suited to provide for them. I would like to understand what factors prompt this apparent tendency amongst lower-class people in a manner that's not stereotypical and adheres to hard data and evidence. If anything, I'd say the utter lack of progress in both education and motivation amongst kids of all backgrounds who experience it has its roots in unfocused parental and family histories brought on by low socio-economic standing. But I don't know anything about this.

except when government enforces a monopoly on something it makes the choice of pursuing a better education that much harder. that, and it would be much cheaper to fund a voucher program and get the same if not better education with private schools than maintaining a whole infrastructure of public schools. save tax money.