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Old 11-03-2005, 03:48 PM   #31
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Oh, he must have had White Chocolate on his mind as well. But on the whole, most of the players in the NBA, as well as most of this country's hip-hop fans, are black, and we can nitpick all we want, but Phil Jackson was definitely referring to them.
Sure, I agree with you there (although, hip hop has become the mainstream genre of this generation).

I wonder though, do you consider Bill Walton to be racist? I'm sure we can all agree he's a jerk , but I think he's said things that could much more easily be interpreted as racist than PJ...And, sometimes, just plain idiotic.

I think in regards to race, PJ isn't a racist, though you could say he's culturally biased. After all, give him a team with Shane Battier, Emeka Okafor, Dwight Howard, etc. on it and I'm sure he'll have scarcely a bad thing to say.

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Old 11-03-2005, 03:54 PM   #32
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Walton is probably about as bad as Jackson, seeing as how he too was part of a big movement/culture. However, he's not nearly as smug and self-important as Jackson is.

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Originally Posted by Tri
I think in regards to race, PJ isn't a racist, though you could say he's culturally biased. After all, give him a team with Shane Battier, Emeka Okafor, Dwight Howard, etc. on it and I'm sure he'll have scarcely a bad thing to say.
I still think that is racism to an extent.
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:12 PM   #33
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they lossed the title last year by 8 points.
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:14 PM   #34
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Walton is probably about as bad as Jackson, seeing as how he too was part of a big movement/culture. However, he's not nearly as smug and self-important as Jackson is.
Wait, you're saying Bill, 'Mr. I played the right way and no one has ever played the game like I did, especially today's stupid kids' Walton is second to anyone in terms of smugness? I understand Jackson's got a big head, but I don't think anyone trumps Walton.

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I still think that is racism to an extent.
How so?
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:23 PM   #35
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Wait, you're saying Bill, 'Mr. I played the right way and no one has ever played the game like I did, especially today's stupid kids' Walton is second to anyone in terms of smugness? I understand Jackson's got a big head, but I don't think anyone trumps Walton.
Even Walton isn't as bad as Phil "Zen-Hippie-Eastern Philosophy" Jackson's bullshit; the way he walks around as if his Zen Philosophy and Triangle Offense are too deep and sophisticated for anyone to truly understand, and how he treats himself as a visionary more than a coach.

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How so?
It shows a complete and utter repulsion to a culture embraced largely by blacks.
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:39 PM   #36
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Um, yeah. IMO, basketball and winning is still what this is all about. Phil can say whatever he wants. He can write whatever he wants and can have his own opinions. And if you want to quote him out of context you are free to do so. I'm sure there is much more to the man then a few things he has said in media, and I'm sure he knows there are two sides to every coin. And last I remember, Phil is black, is he not? So the racist point is kind of moot.

Hip-Hop? So what. He doesn't like it. He sees negative in it. And there is negative in it. Or at least some of it can be percieved as negative. Sometimes it's negative and positive all at once. That's the way hip-hop culture is. And other pop culture movements as well. I don't think he meant to blanket an entire genre of music or people with a few statements that are clearly just an opinion of his own.

Phil owes nothing to the Lakers, Shaq, or Kobe. He owes nothing to the fans, hip-hop culture, or his detractors. Or his supporters, for that matter. He is a basketball coach. That's what he does. And he does it extraordinarily well. Everything else is jusr B.S.

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Old 11-03-2005, 04:55 PM   #37
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Phil Jackson is black? WTF?

And since when should we simply dehumanize athletes and coaches like the way you just did?

I hope you feel this way about Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb, Kobe Bryant, Ted Williams, Maury Wils, Lawrence Taylor, Pete Rose, and every other huge asshole in sports or else you are a huge hypocrite.

Maybe you are able to not view coaches and athletes as human beings, and in a way that is both commendable and shameful, but I cannot. I cannot bring myself to support someone if they are a lousy person, regardless of whether or not he hit .400 or how many rings he has won.

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Phil owes nothing to the Lakers, Shaq, or Kobe. He owes nothing to the fans, hip-hop culture, or his detractors. Or his supporters, for that matter. He is a basketball coach. That's what he does. And he does it extraordinarily well. Everything else is jusr B.S.
So he owes nothing to the people who help put money in his pocket?

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Old 11-03-2005, 05:27 PM   #38
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Kings are already 0-2 after my Rockets stomped them last night. Yao Ming had a good night (22pts, 10 boards, 1 block) but he only played 25 minutes because of foul trouble. Refs need to stop calling so many fouls on him because he could be a better player if he could play 35-40 minutes a game. Right now I think he's decent but not even close to as good as he should be. TMac picks up the slack though. Go Rockets!
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Old 11-03-2005, 05:54 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Illmatic
Phil Jackson is black? WTF?

And since when should we simply dehumanize athletes and coaches like the way you just did?

I hope you feel this way about Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb, Kobe Bryant, Ted Williams, Maury Wils, Lawrence Taylor, Pete Rose, and every other huge asshole in sports or else you are a huge hypocrite.

Maybe you are able to not view coaches and athletes as human beings, and in a way that is both commendable and shameful, but I cannot. I cannot bring myself to support someone if they are a lousy person, regardless of whether or not he hit .400 or how many rings he has won.

So he owes nothing to the people who help put money in his pocket?
Sorry about the Phil is black thing. My bad. I could of swore I read somewhere he is "mixed race". Half black, is what I mean. Which to my mind would make him as African-American as anyone else. But apparently I was mistaken.

And yeah, I do feel the same way about those other guys. A-holes or not. At worst they should keep there big mouths shut. It's hard for me to take what these guys say seriously. And at the same time I don't think they should be held to a higher standard then Mr. and Mrs. Average. Under scrutiny I certainly don't think I would like to be held to such a high standard to the point of having to be careful of what I say, who I say it to, and who I say it about. And I am not perfect myself. So I can't really expect others, famous or not, to not have their own opinions and ideas. Lousy people? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I have not liked hearing what these people have said sometimes. Nor have I approved of there actions. But I can't pretend I'm above it all, either. So I'll cut them some slack and just enjoy what they do. Which is basically play ball.

So far as Phil owing anyone anything? No, I don't believe he does. Least of all the people who put money in his pocket. Everyone is a grown up in Phil's world. One hand washes the other. Is it clean, ethical, right, or as things should be? Not all the time. But for the most part it is civil and it gets the job done.

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Old 11-03-2005, 08:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by TurnOnTheLight
Kings are already 0-2 after my Rockets stomped them last night. Yao Ming had a good night (22pts, 10 boards, 1 block) but he only played 25 minutes because of foul trouble. Refs need to stop calling so many fouls on him because he could be a better player if he could play 35-40 minutes a game. Right now I think he's decent but not even close to as good as he should be. TMac picks up the slack though. Go Rockets!
Yao=beast
TMac=graet
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:56 PM   #41
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And yeah, I do feel the same way about those other guys. A-holes or not. At worst they should keep there big mouths shut. It's hard for me to take what these guys say seriously. And at the same time I don't think they should be held to a higher standard then Mr. and Mrs. Average. Under scrutiny I certainly don't think I would like to be held to such a high standard to the point of having to be careful of what I say, who I say it to, and who I say it about. And I am not perfect myself. So I can't really expect others, famous or not, to not have their own opinions and ideas. Lousy people? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I have not liked hearing what these people have said sometimes. Nor have I approved of there actions. But I can't pretend I'm above it all, either. So I'll cut them some slack and just enjoy what they do. Which is basically play ball.
On the flip side, I don't like giving them leeway just because they're pro athletes. You probably complain about assholes in your every day life, but an asshole who happens to play sports for a living gets a reprieve? Fuck that.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:31 PM   #42
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There's a difference between saying 'Ty Cobb was a pretty good hitter' and 'Ty Cobb was a great guy'.
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Old 11-04-2005, 10:46 AM   #43
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all i know about Phil Jackson is that he has 6 rings with MJ, one of the best all around players ever, and 3 with the second best big man in NBA history and who at the the time had the best SG in Kobe on his team. its not like he coached up these players, shaq was already great, and kobe had come into his own by the time PJ got there, and MJ and Pippen could have 5 outta 6 without PJ, i personally think hes overrated. and what he did with the book and the comments towards mostly black culture is pretty f.ucking lame.

on another note, im glad to see TJ ford playing well.
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:52 PM   #44
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Hey, are there any Nets fans here? I've loved them for years, even before they got JKidd. Not sure why, but I do, especially with my username guy, RJ and Kidd. The bench is deep and talented (Lamond Murray, Jeff McInnis, just to name a few). I'd love to hear from other fans!
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:54 PM   #45
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Yao=beast
TMac=graet
I love Yao, I love TMac, I love the Rockets.

Go Rockets!
Go Nets!
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:08 PM   #46
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omg the Bobcats' bench is beating the Sixers' 22-4.
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:41 PM   #47
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Yao=beast
TMac=graet
Yao isn't even half as good as he should be... If he learned to play stronger, play harder, hit the boards harder and stop making stupid fouls he could be a really great player. TMac is awesome but he has tendonitis right now and it's going to bother him all season. Don't be shocked if the Rockets make another midseason trade this year.

Edit: Rocket's game tommorow night. Expect a full report. If you're a Rockets fan or not, check out [URL="http://www.clutchfans.net"]http://www.clutchfans.net[/url]

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Old 11-04-2005, 06:43 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by vInsAniTy
Hey, are there any Nets fans here? I've loved them for years, even before they got JKidd. Not sure why, but I do, especially with my username guy, RJ and Kidd. The bench is deep and talented (Lamond Murray, Jeff McInnis, just to name a few). I'd love to hear from other fans!
Lamond Murray and McInnis?... That's not talent at all. There's far better 2nd strings in the NBA.
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:30 PM   #49
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Lamond Murray and McInnis?... That's not talent at all. There's far better 2nd strings in the NBA.
If you wanna take off Murray, go ahead. But McInnis? He has starting potential. He doesn't have to be one cause Kidd is there. He just has to play about 20 minutes or so to provide Kidd and Carter with much needed rest, since he can play both the guard spots.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:23 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by vInsAniTy
Hey, are there any Nets fans here? I've loved them for years, even before they got JKidd. Not sure why, but I do, especially with my username guy, RJ and Kidd. The bench is deep and talented (Lamond Murray, Jeff McInnis, just to name a few). I'd love to hear from other fans!
The Nets have Jefferson, Kidd, and Carter and no one else. Throw in the fact that Kidd and Carter couldn't guard someone if they tried and are both injury risks and I don't exactly see why the Nets are expected to be so good this year.

And no one in the league gets excused more than Yao Ming. Every year we hear the obligatory "Watch out for Yao!" stories, but his numbers go up a little bit while he completely disappears when the Rockets need him, primarily because he is far too timid to be a great big man in this league.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:11 PM   #51
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Throw in the fact that Kidd and Carter couldn't guard someone if they tried and are both injury risks and I don't exactly see why the Nets are expected to be so good this year.
excuse me? You just said Kidd can't defend? Kidd is one of the better defenders in the league. And yes, Carter can defend if he tried. He did today. Get your facts straight, Kidd has made the All Defensive team multiple times, including some with the Nets.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:18 PM   #52
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That was before he had knee surgery, boyo. His lateral quickness and speed have declined since his knee injury, and that's a problem if you're trying to guard point guards. And playing well against the Toronto Raptors is not a very good indication of good defense, especially seeing as how Toronto came out swinging in the second half.

And they still don't have much beyond those three. Jason Collins won't hurt you, I guess; Nenad Krstic and Marc Jackson are all right; Cliff Robinson would have been a great pickup if this was 1996; Jeff McInnis is such a terrible teammate that he couldn't even get along with LeBron, and he also can't play a lick of defense and doesn't really like passing, but other than that he's great; everyone else (Lamond Murray? Jacque Vaughn?) is basically irrelevent.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:42 PM   #53
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But that doesn't mean he's lost it all. He's mostly recovered, and although he would never be what he was five years ago, he'll be close, and that's pretty damn good. Carter is in there for the offense, and he does his job well. Occasionally, he can play defense, but only if he tries. He's pretty fast and he knows what to do. The Nets are heavily favored to win the Atlantic, giving them a top three spot in the East playoffs, which means they will not have to play a top 3 team until the second or third round.

Jason Collins is far from being a good offensive player, but occasionally he can hit that 15-foot jumper. However, he is a promising young defender, constantly giving up his body for loose balls and draws offensive fouls. I agree that Nenad Krstic and Marc Jackson are alright, but Krstic will get very good, as this is only his sophomore year. Um, yeah Robinson is getting older but he can occasionally some big shots. McInnis is good, he'll want to play since he knows he's on a good team that can win. Yes he isn't the greatest teammate, but perhaps Jason Kidd will have something to say about it now?
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Old 11-04-2005, 10:44 PM   #54
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Carter hasn't been 100% since the injury. You can't argue that. Cliff Robinson and McInnis are both on the washed up side. Robinson was an awesome player but he's just too old. McInnis was nothing more than a decent player. Don't expect the Nets to go far into the playoffs if they can even get in.
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Old 11-04-2005, 10:50 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Illmatic
The Nets have Jefferson, Kidd, and Carter and no one else. Throw in the fact that Kidd and Carter couldn't guard someone if they tried and are both injury risks and I don't exactly see why the Nets are expected to be so good this year.

And no one in the league gets excused more than Yao Ming. Every year we hear the obligatory "Watch out for Yao!" stories, but his numbers go up a little bit while he completely disappears when the Rockets need him, primarily because he is far too timid to be a great big man in this league.
He gets too many stupid foul calls... He rarely plays over 30 minutes a game due to foul trouble. Being 7'6" he gets alot of attention from refs. Besides that I'm not on the big Yao bandwagon... he doesn't play very hard at all. Sometimes he doesn't even go up to get rebounds.
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Old 11-05-2005, 08:01 AM   #56
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He gets too many stupid foul calls... He rarely plays over 30 minutes a game due to foul trouble. Being 7'6" he gets alot of attention from refs. Besides that I'm not on the big Yao bandwagon... he doesn't play very hard at all. Sometimes he doesn't even go up to get rebounds.
The problem is that some of the rules in the NBA (IE over the back) naturally hurt mobile 7'6 guys. I agree with Illmatic ( ) though, that Yao needs to step up and assert himself more. When he does, he'll be the best center in the league.

As for the Nets: You have a bunch of guys with bad legs. VC, Kidd, even Jefferson (who's extremely overpaid). Krstic is a good young center, and along with Jackson they have a solid frontcourt. But they really should've gotten Abdur Rahim.

And yeah, McInnis makes the all NBA jerks first team..
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Old 11-05-2005, 08:25 AM   #57
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How do you guys think Houston will turn out this year? Everytime I turn on ESPN they never talk about them. I'm sorta worried.....what are you guys' opinions?
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Old 11-05-2005, 09:12 AM   #58
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The problem is that some of the rules in the NBA (IE over the back) naturally hurt mobile 7'6 guys. I agree with Illmatic ( ) though, that Yao needs to step up and assert himself more. When he does, he'll be the best center in the league.

As for the Nets: You have a bunch of guys with bad legs. VC, Kidd, even Jefferson (who's extremely overpaid). Krstic is a good young center, and along with Jackson they have a solid frontcourt. But they really should've gotten Abdur Rahim.

And yeah, McInnis makes the all NBA jerks first team..
It really sucks that Yao is so tall for that reason. He gets too many fouls. Perhaps it's because he gets so many fouls that he doesn't play that hard? But I agree he really needs to work on his game and be more aggressive. He's a decent shooter, but he could be so much better.

the Nets: VC is 28 and RJ is 25. Kidd is the oldest, and a true leader. He has experience, he makes the team so much better, and he is arguably (with Nash) the best point guard in the NBA. Jefferson has unlimited potential, he plays hard every night and tries his best. I agree that Abdur Rahim would've helped immensly, for he is a solid power forward and that's what they needed, and still need. With him, the Nets would be able to put Collins on the bench and give the bench better defense. Oh well.

McInnis is just in there to give Kidd and Carter rest.
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Old 11-05-2005, 09:25 AM   #59
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I agree with Illmatic about the Nets. Of course I'm a Knicks fan so I'm obligated to hate them. But Kidd has not and will never be the same after his knee surgery. I think he's still a good defender though, even if he's not what he used to be. Carter just sucks defensively. Never been a VC fan. There were so many rumors he was going to the Knicks, I'm relieved we don't have him. He may be able to score but he won't play a lick of defense and is just a headache. Richard Jefferson is one of the cockiest players in the NBA. He's a good scorer though, and his rebounding is improving. They don't really have anyone in the frontcourt. Collin's is okay defensively and Kristic has a lot of talent but is still a work in progress. Neither of them are an inside force. I don't think the Nets will go far at all in the playoffs. As for the bench, don't kid yourself with Lamond Murray, there's not really anything you can say about him besides he sucks. That pretty much sums it up. Clifford Robinson is too old, McInnis is the kind of player who thinks he's good so he hogs the ball and shoots. Problem is, he's not very good.

As for the Rockets, I like them. I'm a huge fan of Jeff Van Gundy, great coach and really nice guy too (met him in a restaurant once). But Yao needs to toughen up. With McGrady and Swift, they should be able to run and Yao can be a force for when they want to slow things up. I don't think they're title contender yet, but if things start to gel, they could become very dangerous.

And yeah, my Knicks just suck.
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Old 11-05-2005, 10:01 AM   #60
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You're not obligated to hate the Nets just because you're a Knicks fan
I like both of them but I like my Nets better.

VC is the Nets' offense, so is Jefferson. Kidd is just there to put everything together. Jefferson has great potential, scores and rebounds, as you said. Carter does what he needs to win, defending is part of that. I agree with you about their front line, but their bench is stronger than before. They have some better shooters, and although their bench isn't the best ever, it's far from the worst.
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