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Old 06-08-2005, 12:06 AM   #301
Convectuoso
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Hey I take theory as a subject but I fid it hard to apply it to my instrument of choice (Bass)

So I'd like to look into Chord Progression, Sight Reading and Use of scales and Modes...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-08-2005, 10:23 AM   #302
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sight reading takes practice, i suggest looking at musictheory.net for help with that. Scales learn as many as you possible can, and try to apply them every chance you get. Chord progressions i'm not really sure i've ever studied them, but if you look at some jazz standars you should find a blues form, rhythm changes, and tritonic harmonies.
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:07 AM   #303
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I've been looking at musictheory.net and the only problem is the sightreading of bass there was only guitar, key board and brass.

And is anyone in the knowing of a lesson of applying scales to bass?
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:12 AM   #304
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Cool

Hm. I play jazz bass, e. though...

Anyway, theory helps bass a LOT. Most especially chord theory. Learning and applying common harmonic progressions will help you IMMENSELY. Key notes: in jazz, and a lot of popular music, the chords move in perfect fourths. This means UP in 4th's; for example, if you see Cm7, you expect a chord beginning on the root note a perfect fourth up. In this case, it's a chord with root F. (The quality is determined by key, melody, and ear, and I'm not counting inversions here...)

This is where the ii-V-I comes from. Notice they move in fourths. If you extend this progression, by moving entirely in fourths, you get a longer progression: ii-V-I-IV-viio-iii-vi. Note, however, that there is one tritone interval, from chord root to chord root. (I'll explain that later).

Ever heard of Autumn Leaves? It's that exact chord pattern, in the key of G major. However, Autumn Leaves is in E minor. How is this possible? The two keys share the same diatonic seventh chords. The most important thing about the progression is that it moves in fourths, not the key it is in. (Note also the progression ends on an Em7 - the tonic).

Anyway, learn chord charts - for walking in 4 and 2, and for general comping; for bass, I'd say learning chord charts is more important than learning to read. Chances are you'll be given chords, not melody. (Learn to sight read, if you are playing upright in a classical context. The only way to learn though, is by practice. And get someone to put you under pressure, and force you to read. Does wonders...)

Scales and modes are useful for a bassist, but unless you are big on bass solos, modes won't be all that neccessary. Also, learning chordal and harmonic theory can help you just as much, if not more, in soloing.

Last edited by ParaRiddleDiddle; 06-09-2005 at 07:15 AM. Reason: EDIT
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:14 PM   #305
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Yeah I play Electric bass too (if that's what you were implying)

I really need some full lessons, links please?

I'd search but all the searches exclude the word 'bass' so it's really hard.
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:15 PM   #306
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You won't find many full lessons on the net, not for this kind of stuff. Not good lessons anyway. My teacher taught me about modes, progressions, walking, etc...But then he's a jazz freak, so...

For general jazz theory: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-theory.html
For modes and scales: http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/
For chordal theory, general theory, including classical: www.musictheory.net

There aren't many tutorial sites for jazz bass out there. I'd recommend learning arpeggio positions, modal positions, and the names of ALL the notes on the fretboard. It's not easy, but it's **** rewarding.
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Old 06-10-2005, 06:11 AM   #307
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Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense?
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:38 PM   #308
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If you want a chord with just the thirteenth than just say "added 13".
For example, a C(added 13) would contain the notes: C E G A. Tipically when you want to use an added 13 you just call it a C6 (A is the 13 and the 6 in the key of C). All of the other ones, like added 11 or added 2 are all written out as "added (blank)"
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:39 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by barnable_eatable
Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense?
it's called a major 6 chord. think of the chord as a dominant 7th chord with the seventh lowered again - C E G A (Bbb). it would most likely be written as C6 or C13 and usually incorporates the major scale when improvising. you don't ALWAYS have to layer thirds on top of eachother to create a chord.

PS: i've seen a lot of bass players posting on this site. tell me what you guys think of Victor Wooten. he's out of his mind! absolutely crazah!
 
Old 06-11-2005, 05:37 AM   #310
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Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?
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Old 06-11-2005, 11:00 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRiddleDiddle
Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?
yoiu were right, it is A.
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Old 06-11-2005, 12:10 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRiddleDiddle
Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?
Alterations on chords are used simply for the purpose of giving color to more simple chords. There are commonly used alterations, but they are not used over specific chords. For example, an Am7(b5) instead of just an Am7 would sound more full and "jazzy". Just expiriment with them untill you find something you like.
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Old 06-11-2005, 03:07 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRiddleDiddle
Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

for sixth chords ex. C6 or Cmin6 think of them as triads with an added major 6. the 9th degree should always be major 9.
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:41 AM   #314
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So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:20 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRiddleDiddle
So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?

i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: dominant sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it .
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:21 PM   #316
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i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: nt sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it .
Yes, a sharp nine isn't a minor third... it's a sharp nine.
 
Old 06-14-2005, 05:17 PM   #317
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can someone please post some tab lessons about scales and stuff. i know absolutely nothing about jazz playing since i mainly have been playing metal and rock and such, plus i have no one to teach me how to play jazz (or play guitar at all but i seem to be surviving.). so yea please tab out some scales and stuff, since i don't understand all of this "b#" stuff.
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Old 06-16-2005, 04:23 AM   #318
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LMFAO! B#.

No offense meant, but you MUST MUST MUST learn to read music. In jazz, you will be, as a guitarist, given lead sheets, in standard notation. Since you will be either playing the melody, or accompanying, you definetley need to learn chord theory, and note/chord names, etc..
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:54 AM   #319
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I think he meant flats and sharps.

Yes like parariddlediddle (haha so much fun to type) said learn to read music. There are pleanty of sites out there that would have what you are looking for. You should just google guitar theory or something like that.
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:18 PM   #320
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nobody help him with a tab because he doesn't know how to read
 
Old 06-16-2005, 09:30 PM   #321
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Reading tabs is much different than reading music.
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:35 PM   #322
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Try Rufus Reeds bass book and try Arbans Trombone method.
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:35 PM   #323
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Try Rufus Reeds bass book and try Arbans Trombone method.
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:34 PM   #324
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It is not manditory to be able to read music to play jazz. Some of the greatest jazz guitarists couldn't read music. granted if you are playing in a big band that bhas charts you will probably need it, but in a combo unit, it is usually head arrangemenets. I usually hear this arguement from someone who has gone to school for music not from a life musician. I've been playing jazz for around fifty years. The last time I read a chart in jazz was way back in the late 60's and even those charts were basically very liberal. Not much reading.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:25 PM   #325
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LMFAO! B#.

No offense meant, but you MUST MUST MUST learn to read music. In jazz, you will be, as a guitarist, given lead sheets, in standard notation. Since you will be either playing the melody, or accompanying, you definetley need to learn chord theory, and note/chord names, etc..
You know there is such thing as B# and E#.

For example, a C# major scale:
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

If you played a C# major chord as C#, F, and G#, the F will be out of tune. It has to be an E# or an Fb (a little bit between the two, it's more of a flat F). That goes for all major chords - to be in tune, the third has to be a little bit flat. I'm not sure exactly how many cents, maybe 3 or 4. Pianos are a sort of compromise, but if three trombones play a major chord it can be beautifully in tune.

[/trivia]

Last edited by Bryan Blakey; 06-18-2005 at 05:28 PM.
 
Old 06-19-2005, 04:30 AM   #326
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Of course there is such thing as a B#. It's just that the posters use of the term, reminded me of a friend, who plays bass, who doesn't understand enharmonic spelling...

I get fed up with enharmonic spellings, though, because in most cases they are impratical, and just make music that much more difficult to read...Anyway, I'd say B# is one of the least common notes in compositions. Composers dislike using too many sharps and flats, often.
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:06 PM   #327
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Of course I understand enharmonics, but when you're an advanced musicians they apply to instruments like piano, trumpet, sax, etc... instruments that can't change the tuning of a note on the fly. For instruments like fretless bass and trombone (my primary instrument), however, there is a difference between G# and Ab. For G# on my trombone I have to be directly under the bell and sometimes a little bit past it. For Ab, I usually have to go in front of the bell a little bit. But on trumpet, G# and Ab (concert) are both just first valve, nothing they can do about it in the middle of a song (usually, I'm sure there is some tool to fix it that I have never heard of). Right.
 
Old 06-23-2005, 08:16 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRiddleDiddle
Of course there is such thing as a B#. It's just that the posters use of the term, reminded me of a friend, who plays bass, who doesn't understand enharmonic spelling...

I get fed up with enharmonic spellings, though, because in most cases they are impratical, and just make music that much more difficult to read...Anyway, I'd say B# is one of the least common notes in compositions. Composers dislike using too many sharps and flats, often.
That's why a lot of the time composers will spell things incorrectly so they are easier to play. The other half of the time, though, they don't know that what they're doing is incorrect.
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Old 06-25-2005, 05:05 PM   #329
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Someone please explain quartal harmony please, and give me a few diagrams for them for guitar.

Thanks.

Last edited by ledzep66; 06-25-2005 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 06-27-2005, 10:44 PM   #330
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Jazz Improvising

I've been playing guitar for about 12 years, and only recently have i gotten into jazz playing. My short term goal is to be able to successfully improvise in a ii V i progression (one of the main jazz progressions). I've learned my major 7th, minor 7th, dom 7th, 6th, 9ths chords and i know that i should focus around the chord tones while improvising (primarily the 3rds and 7ths).

My question is: When improvising jazz solos, do i use any scales/modes or can i just play anything, as long as i focus around the chord's target notes? I notice alot of jazz solos use chromatic notes, which makes me wonder if any scales are used. What can i do to make my jazz improv sound more "jazzy", as to my current approach, which is using the major/minor scales over this progression?

Example of what i'm doing over ii V i Progressions...

Dm7 > D Dorian, focusing on F notes (the 3rd of D)
G7 > G Mixolydian, focusing on F (the 7th of G)
Cmaj7 > C Major, focusing on E (the 3rd of C)

This just doesn't sound "jazzy" to me. Should i just forget about scales and concentrate on just playing anything (chromatic lines) between target notes?
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