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Old 10-13-2013, 02:32 PM   #31
Smokey D
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Fish, did some frenchies tell you that?

I'm not sure libertarianism was originally associated with the left but even if it was I'm not sure that would have any bearing on what libertarianism is today. If people are making that point today, they usually distinguish left libertarianism (anti-capitalist) from libertarianism generally (generally, pro-capitalist).

Neo-liberalism is different from both.

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Old 10-13-2013, 07:01 PM   #32
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Um, no, actually. I starting interacting with libertarian communists long before I even found out there were these liberals in the US calling themselves libertarians.

Libertarianism as a laissez faire capitalist ideology is only really prevalent in the USA I think. Was definitely originally a term used by anarchist-communists.

Maybe these days the term has a broader meaning but it's silly to associate it exclusively with capitalism.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:07 PM   #33
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Basically all of these terms have no concrete definition and are constantly redefined by whoever is using them. I bet if we all defined Libertarian, Conservative, Liberal, Socialism, Democracy and Capitalism (as applied in the real world) we would all have drastically different definitions.

Bottom line is Rand Paul and Ted Cruz make the rest of US congress and senate look like the corrupt demagogues that they are. Ideologies are secondary when you can't even get virtually anything but bought-off criminals as your representatives. I would have given my left nut for Jill Stein as president, and her ideology is ridiculous.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by fish. View Post
Um, no, actually. I starting interacting with libertarian communists long before I even found out there were these liberals in the US calling themselves libertarians.

Libertarianism as a laissez faire capitalist ideology is only really prevalent in the USA I think. Was definitely originally a term used by anarchist-communists.

Maybe these days the term has a broader meaning but it's silly to associate it exclusively with capitalism.
this fucking forum

i already knew all this shit and so did smokey d

and i knew exactly what you were gonna say about it

so stop being a smarmy cunt and posting like you're offering up some kind of education

nobody cares apart from five people on revleft
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:10 PM   #35
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i mean sorry shit please continue with your novel and exciting viewpoint that i have never seen before
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:10 PM   #36
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i dont know exactly what you're talking about.
You laughed at libertarian ideology when they are the only ones opposing any of the policies I listed.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:11 PM   #37
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I'm not doing that. We're simply having a conversation. If he already knew it it's weird he'd post that comment.

These responses of yours are v. contrived.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:12 PM   #38
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I'm not doing that. We're simply having a conversation. If he already knew it it's weird he'd post that comment.

These responses of yours are v. contrived.
we've all had these same conversations a million times when -we- were 14

now you're 14 and think its interesting

its not
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:14 PM   #39
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did you know that in germany liberals are fiscally conservative

well i guess we need to have a 20 post exchange about how words have meaning or how meaning changes over time or whatever

fuck
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:14 PM   #40
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I'm not 14.

What conversations. We're not discussing anything deeper than semantics.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:15 PM   #41
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you're weird
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #42
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yes, who cares

pretentious communists think libertarian means something different than the rest of the world

the end
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #43
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*pretentious communists who are so desperate to tell you about their superior understanding of words*
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:17 PM   #44
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pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious pretentious
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:18 PM   #45
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usa =/= rest of world
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:19 PM   #46
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yes, your posts are primarily that

hence it features heavily in my criticism of them
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:20 PM   #47
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usa =/= rest of world
who gives a fuck, you're the only (fake) french person here

everyone knows EXACTLY what we're all talking about when we say libertarian

even you! but no, you need to be an annoying cunt about it
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:20 PM   #48
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I don't feel superior, funny that you'd perceive that
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:22 PM   #49
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like we could be having a conversation about bandaids and nobody is having trouble but you'd come along and say actually guys that's a genericized trademark, the proper name in france is sticky plaster

and?
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:23 PM   #50
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idk what being french has to do with it cos I live in the uk but lol at you complaining about annoying cunts

but yeah I think it's fair to point out the potential confusion with how a term like this is used
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:24 PM   #51
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there is no potential confusion, there was no actual confusion

the only reason for you to point that shit out was to convey your own knowledge of the subject

which is a categorically cunty thing to do
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:27 PM   #52
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there is potential confusion

is there any conversation value in talking about whether i'm a cunt or not or whether you're a cunt or not or can i go to bed now
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:45 PM   #53
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Um, no, actually. I starting interacting with libertarian communists long before I even found out there were these liberals in the US calling themselves libertarians.
Traditionally, "libertarian communists" were called anarchists, I think. I'm not sure whether the left- or right-wing adopted the term "libertarian" first but more importantly I don't think it matters much.

I dunno, I majored in political theory. I'm fairly confident in saying that the term "libertarian" without more is generally understood to refer to pro-capitalist types.

Quote:
Basically all of these terms have no concrete definition and are constantly redefined by whoever is using them. I bet if we all defined Libertarian, Conservative, Liberal, Socialism, Democracy and Capitalism (as applied in the real world) we would all have drastically different definitions.
They don't have "concrete definitions" but we have a pretty good idea.

Murrary Rothbard wasn't a communist. Lenin wasn't a neoliberal.

Quote:
Bottom line is Rand Paul and Ted Cruz make the rest of US congress and senate look like the corrupt demagogues that they are. Ideologies are secondary when you can't even get virtually anything but bought-off criminals as your representatives. I would have given my left nut for Jill Stein as president, and her ideology is ridiculous.
I don't know why you think Cruz and Paul are immune.

Quote:
You laughed at libertarian ideology when they are the only ones opposing any of the policies I listed.
specifically, I don't know what privacy invasion issues you're talking about so i don't know whether they are more than coincidentally "libertarian" positions. I assume you're talking about the Snowden revelations, but it's pretty clear "libertarians" aren't the only ones upset by that.

Quote:
usa =/= rest of world
right, but it's generally understood in the way we're using it everywhere else in the english speaking world except i dunno maybe in Morning Star

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Old 10-13-2013, 11:16 PM   #54
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Quote:
They don't have "concrete definitions" but we have a pretty good idea.

Murrary Rothbard wasn't a communist. Lenin wasn't a neoliberal.
Is Obama a socialist?
Is Romney a conservative?
Is the US a democracy?
Has any president in the past 50 years been "pro-capitalist"?

^Yes, No, No, No.
Im guessing you would answer the opposite. George Orwell's essay "Politics and the English Language" explains why these words meanings are intentionally kept vague to achieve deceitful political goals in speech...

I think most of the people who aren't "libertarian" are just confused as to what the word actually means when people like me use it.
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Old 10-13-2013, 11:37 PM   #55
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No
Yes
Yes
Yes.

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Im guessing you would answer the opposite. George Orwell's essay "Politics and the English Language" explains why these words meanings are intentionally kept vague to achieve deceitful political goals in speech...
It's hilarious that you invoke orwell in support of your doublespeak.

Quote:
I think most of the people who aren't "libertarian" are just confused as to what the word actually means when people like me use it.
Maybe. I'm not convinced you use it right when you call people like ted cruz a libertarian.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:32 AM   #56
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the correct answers are

partially, partially, partially, partially
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:26 PM   #57
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What positions of Ted Cruz make him a questionable Libertarian?
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:28 PM   #58
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his selective opposition to government entitlements, for one.

opposition to same sex marriage (and support for a federal level definition of marriage).
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:46 PM   #59
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same sex marriage is a minor issue, but yeah that stance isn't libertarian.

What government entitlements is he "selectively allowing/opposing"?
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:32 PM   #60
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so many faggots in this thread
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