mics and recording set up

[Vinnie's Ice Cream]

It's not "fragility", it's just how they are designed. All the manufacturers of mics are very clear about this.

Originally Posted by Seafroggys

they've been using Ribbons 1-2 meters away from a Marshall stack for decades.

Sound drops off at the inverse square. Meaning twice the distance is half the sound. 2 meters - or roughly 6 feet away from a sound source. Is half the SPL as 3 feet. And again that of 1.5 feet. And again that of 9 inches, etc... close micing a drum is roughly 2-3" from the sound source.

This means that the same mic at 6' away is getting 4x the SPL at 1.5 feet away. And 8x that at 9" away. It's the nature and physics of sound.

A condenser mic from 3+ feet away is very normal because of this. Hence overheads on drums.

You put those same mics 3" from those guitar cab speakers and you'll have a very expensive piece of trash from the first riff.

3 meters and 3" is roughly 16x the volume difference in SPL.

Originally Posted by Seafroggys

I mean, you often hear that if an engineer was to mic the bottom side of the snare, and they use a condenser for that, even if the top is miked with a 57. And obviously because the bottom is so much quieter than the top, right?

I've never seen, or heard of, a condenser mic being used on the bottom of a snare drum. Or top of any snare drum. Never read about it or otherwise for that matter.

It should be noted that Bob Gatzen, who is famous for recording Bonham's drum sounds, and many others, has never mentioned using condensers for close micing drums.

Thumb through your drum mags, google up your favorite studio drummers pictures, live playing pictures, whatever you want... you'll never see a condenser close micing a snare drum.

SM57, hands down. It's the industry standard for good reason.

Dynamic mics are used in close micing situations because there is no need to "condense" the sound. It's already about as direct as you can get.

This is basic drum micing 101.


Here is the formula's for how acoustics work:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ph4060/p406i.html


*The bottom of a snare drum is not quieter then the top. It's simply a different sound. A Db meter will easily show you this.

[ares]

Originally Posted by Vinnie's Ice Cream

I've never heard or seen close micing with condensers on drums in modern recording. Like Damo said, the SPL would blow them away... that's a real fast way to learn a real simple lesson about mics.

Condensers are for condensing lots of sound. Dynamic mics are for direct sound sources.

This is totally incorrect. There are tons of condenser mics that are designed to be used for close micing drums:

Shure Beta 91 (goes inside kick drum)
Shure Beta 98 (toms)
Sennheiser e901 (goes inside kick drum)
there are a bunch of others that are for similar applications that I can't think of right now.

I've even seen the FOH engineer for a well-known band use Shure KSM32's on close-mic'd toms!

The difference between condenser and dynamic mics is the kind of transducer element that they use. Dynamics use an inductor while condensers use a capacitor. Since the moving element of a condenser has less mass, they are often better at picking up transients and are more sensitive. They generally have wider pickup patterns and therefore make better overhead-type mics, which is probably what you mean by saying that they 'condense' the sound.

[Vinnie's Ice Cream]

All of those mic's you list have special digital attenuation for the close proximity. Check the specs. Those are not "normal" mics. They have pre amps and digital attenuation built in.

"..and a new design integrates the preamplifier and XLR connection for easy setup and minimal stage clutter."
- Shure (Beta91)

This is like saying, condenser mics don't need phantom power because my Heil condensers don't. The exception is not the rule.

[Seafroggys]

I've never heard or seen close micing with condensers on drums in modern recording

All of those mic's you list have special digital attenuation for the close proximity.

This line of thinking doesn't make sense to me. By saying that they are not found in modern recordings, you imply that they would be found in other recordings (in this case, older recordings). Then you say that those mics have digital attenuation, which would obviously only apply for....modern recordings.

Attenuation has been used in mics for decades. Analog or digital.

And gearslutz have something to say on the matter as well http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/38770-snare-drum-condenser-micing.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/358104-condenser-tom-mics.html

Hey, I'm not arguing that condensers are better for close miking, I'm not arguing that condensers are used more often, I'm just arguing that many pro studios DO use condensers for close miking, if they fit the desired sound.

My best bass drum sound has come from an AT4047 several inches off the head, and this is over the tried and true D112 and Beta 52.

[Vinnie's Ice Cream]

*shrug* There will always be exceptions and weirdo's. Seafroggys do you have any of these recordings on line?

In the last 6 days I've played 4 shows and have another kit setup in the studio for tracking next week. Another show tonight and saturday. Next weekend will be a huge show (50,000+) and I expect the same micing setup as I've always seen.

Only time I've seen condensers used is for overheads.

In fact, I couldn't count how many times I've recorded, let alone played live. In my experience I've never seen a condenser used for close micing.
I HAVE seen condensers blown out from being too close to sound sources though!

Again, there's always weirdo's and people doing odd things. But there's a pretty standardized formula for recording drums that has been proven tried and true.

I would recommend for the novice recording interest to stick to the middle of the road and play it safe.

[Seafroggys]

Oh of course, for newbie engineers, use dynamics. Never argued against that.

As far as blown condensers, there can be many reasons. The engineer may have been an idiot. The mic may have been cheap. The preamp may have been cheap. Who knows?

And live? I wouldn't expect a condenser to be used to close-mic live. Not saying it would never be done, but like you, I've never seen it.

I do have several recordings with using an AT4047, in fact there's a mic shootout test that I posted here about a year ago or so comparing a Beta 52 with the 4047.

[ares]

I still find it hard to believe that you have never seen anyone close mic a drum with a condenser mic if you've been in the music business for very long.

I am an engineer at an 850-capacity venue and I see many touring engineers come through who use condensers on drums, particularly the Shure Beta 98AMP or e901/Beta 91. Like I stated before, I've seen people successfully use Shure KSM32's (a studio vocal/overhead mic) on close-mic'd toms in a live setting.

Yes, we tend to use dynamics because they are generally more durable and are cheaper, but that doesn't mean that I don't see a condenser used every 5 shows or so.