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Old 05-30-2006, 01:18 PM   #1
The Peaceful Warrior
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Waste of the West - Livestock Grazing

http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/grazing/

Has anyone heard about this? From what I've read elsewhere apparently the west is extremely unproductive with its livestock, with the east far surpassing the west in production with far less land use. The public pays good money for the western grazers to just let cattle trample on land, rendering it infertile, and pollute with bovine emissions. On top of it all is this cowboy myth surrounding public lands grazers, you know, free spirited remnants of the old west. But, in reality they're actually just freeloading.

What do you guys think about this situation?
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:50 PM   #2
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Hmm, interesting theory... cattly grazing to be end of america as we know it?
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:45 PM   #3
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nay, cattle grazing to be wasteful and economically harmful, wasteof public lands
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:20 PM   #4
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excellent discussion going here.
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:21 PM   #5
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You know what would solve the problem? An end to public lands
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:31 PM   #6
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lol.....
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:05 PM   #7
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If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it
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Old 05-30-2006, 10:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Chrizzle fo' Shizzle
If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it
That is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.

Public property isn't owned by no one, it's owned by everyone. Were the feudal commons destroyed because no one cared about them, or did everyone take care of them and use them relatively sustainably?
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Chrizzle fo' Shizzle
If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it
Osaka, Japan uses communal dipping bowls in restaurants and everyone respectively refrains from double dipping (except for the occasional troublemaker, of course).

Caring through ownership isn't a universality.
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Old 05-31-2006, 05:54 PM   #10
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That's fantastic for the Japanese. I'm sure it's working well for them

But in the United States, public property is trashed constantly. Public restrooms are generally more disgusting than pay toilets. Public parks are full of litter. There's no incentive to keep it clean
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Chrizzle fo' Shizzle
That's fantastic for the Japanese. I'm sure it's working well for them
But in the United States, public property is trashed constantly. Public restrooms are generally more disgusting than pay toilets. Public parks are full of litter. There's no incentive to keep it clean
thats funny because ...... lol idk
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:39 PM   #12
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If you had your own grass, there would be more incentive to ensure that nobody spat on it because it's yours
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Old 05-31-2006, 07:01 PM   #13
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*spits on chris' grass*
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Old 05-31-2006, 07:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Peaceful Warrior
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/grazing/

Has anyone heard about this? From what I've read elsewhere apparently the west is extremely unproductive with its livestock, with the east far surpassing the west in production with far less land use. The public pays good money for the western grazers to just let cattle trample on land, rendering it infertile, and pollute with bovine emissions. On top of it all is this cowboy myth surrounding public lands grazers, you know, free spirited remnants of the old west. But, in reality they're actually just freeloading.

What do you guys think about this situation?
Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights?
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Old 05-31-2006, 07:21 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by siva_chair
Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights?
say what?
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:40 PM   #16
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say what?
There are many Eastern countries that have poor human and animal rights.

Look at Southeast Asia and China.
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:52 PM   #17
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*spits on chris' grass*
*Shoots Knifeboy for damaging my property and potentially infecting my grass with hepatitis*
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrizzle fo' Shizzle
You know what would solve the problem? An end to public lands
Spot on man. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons"]Wikipedia: Tragedy of the Commons.[/url]
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siva_chair
Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights?
I think we've got them packed in as tightly as we can. The real issue here is meat production itself. Meat consumption parallels economic development, and not necessarily health.

Meat is terribly inefficient; cattle use 70% of US grain and 50% of US water. It'll take 8 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. An acre of spinach produces 26 times as much protein as an acre of grazing cattle. Etc.

It's much less resource intensive to eat non meat products, that's why developing countries do it.
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:20 PM   #20
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I think we've got them packed in as tightly as we can.
Hardly.

Quote:
The real issue here is meat production itself. Meat consumption parallels economic development, and not necessarily health.
Well, meat is very good for you, so I would say it does have something to do with health.

Quote:
Meat is terribly inefficient;
No it isn't.

Quote:
cattle use 70% of US grain and 50% of US water. It'll take 8 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. An acre of spinach produces 26 times as much protein as an acre of grazing cattle. Etc.
Not sure about the grain statistic (even though I do know we export lots of our grain anyhow), but I do believe your water statistic is wrong. If I recall correctly, the largest uses of water are for field irrigation and thermoelectric power, not watering livestock. So actually, it is your fields that use more water than cattle.

Quote:
It's much less resource intensive to eat non meat products, that's why developing countries do it.
Good for them. I will keep eating meat because 1) I like it and 2) it is healthy for you.

Also, it actually kills less animals than farming.
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:44 AM   #21
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Let's not forget that meat is yummy.

And also, everyone in this thread should read Collapse by Jared Diamond.
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