Sputnik Music Forums - Official Jazz Theory Thread

Sputnik Music Forums (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/index.php)

- Other Music (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

- - Official Jazz Theory Thread (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116892)

Official Jazz Theory Thread

Here it is, folks: The OFFICIAL Jazz theory thread :D

This thread is for anything related to jazz theory, but DON'T post it elsewhere. Any questions you have go in here, and if you just want to add some info on it, it also goes in here. Have fun. . .

To start things off: Jazz Scales. Everyone is always asking about them, so I compiled everything most of you will ever need (and then some).

JAZZ THEORY

(How to read: Number refers to what degree of the scale is played, for instance starting on C major:
1 – C
b2 – Db/C#
2 – D
#2/b3 – Eb/D#
3 – E
4 – F
#4/b5 – Gb/F#
5 – G
b6/#5 – Ab/G#
6 – A
#6/b7 – Bb/A#
7 – B
8 – C one octave up
b9 – Db/C# one octave up
etc...)

Intervals:

(NOTE: Play both notes at the same time)

Unison – 1 and 1
Minor 2nd – 1 and b2
Major 2nd – 1 and 2
Minor 3rd – 1 and b3
Major 3rd – 1 and 3
Perfect 4th – 1 and 4
Diminished 5th – 1 and b5
Perfect 5th – 1 and 5
Minor 6th – 1 and b6
Major 6 – 1 and 6
Minor 7th – 1 and b7
Major 7th – 1 and 7
Octave – 1 and 8
Minor 9th – 1 and b9 9same as b2 an octave up)
Major 9th – 1 and 9
(Etc…)

All the different modes of the major scale:

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonized Major Scale:
1: Maj7
2: Min7
3: Min7
4: Maj7
5: 7 (Dominant)
6: Min7
7: Min7 b5

Melodic Minor and its modes:

Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Lydian b7 (4th degree): 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Altered (7th degree): 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonized Melodic Minor Scale:
NOTE: I only list the tensions when they deviate from the norm.

1: Min(Maj7)
2: Min7
3: Maj7#5
4: 7 9 #11 (Dominant)
5: 7 9 b13 (Dominant)
6: Min7 b5
7: Min7 b5

Diminished: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 7 OR 1 b2 3 b4 b5 b6 b7
Whole Tone: 1 2 b4 b6 b7

And all the pentatonic scales, the blues scale, and the bebop scales:

Pentatonic Minor: 1 b3 4 5 b7
Pentatonic Minor 6: 1 b3 4 5 6
Pentatonic Dominant: 1 2 3 5 b7
Pentatonic Half Diminished: 1 b3 4 b5 b7
Pentatonic Major b6: 1 2 3 5 b6
Blues: 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b7 7
Bebop Major: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7
Bebop Minor: 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7
Bebop Dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7
Bebop Dominant b9 b13: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7

Contact me on AIM (FreeMusicNo1) if you have questions. I've helped a lot of people from mx with this, so feel free to contact me. And remember, if you think you have something to add (not just on scales), add it here!

I'm also available for help.
AIM: IgnorantSubhuman

Oh, Walker, do you think it would be possible to get an official recommendations thread along with rules? I'd talk to the mods but I'm not in their best graces currently. Heh.

I'm just gonna play it low for a while. :thumb:

You can still talk to me. I don't not like you.

Oh, ok, cool.

It'd be great if we could get an official recommendations thread, along with a thread that basicially says "Don't post stuff about RHCP or Incubus."

You make it and I'll stick it. You guys can be my deputies. Basically, I'm willing to let you do all the work of a mod except the actual pressing of the buttons until mx decides to get one of you guys modded.

Thanks for stickying those, Ikik :thumb:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to theory:

I have another 'lesson' planned out, but first I need to explain some chord theory. For playing jazz, this is ESSENTIAL, especially for guitarists because most of the time you will be plaing chords.

Chords are constructed by "stacking" thirds, or adding thirds. (Remember that a 3rd is a 1 and b3 or 1 and 3 from my interval lesson) The simplest type of chord is a triad: the root, the 3rd, and the 5th. And, as you probably know, the 3rd is what creates a Major or Minor sound (without a 3rd the chord is called 'sustain,' or sus). So, to play a Major triad, you play the root (1), 3, and 5. A C Major triad is C E G.

If you add a third onto that chord, you create a "7 chord." Now, your chord is composed of the root (1), 3rd, 5th, and 7th. A C Major 7 chord is C E G B.

Now, adding thirds onto the 7th starts to create the tension tones: the 9th, 11th, and 13th. As you probably see, these are just the tones that would be added when you "stack" even more thirds. So, a C Major 13 chord would consist of all the tones in the major scale: C E G B D F A.

NOTE: When playing minor chords, remember that all the tensions will be based off the Aeolian scale, unless indicated otherwise. So, a Minor 13 chord would be composed of the root (1), b3, 5, b7, 9, 11, b13.

Sometimes chords will list alterations in its usual tensions, and it is very important to pay attention to these. For instance, sometimes you will see a C b9 b13. This means that the normal tones (1, 3, 5, 7) willbe dominant, but the tensions will be b9, 11, b13. So, a C b9 b13 will be played like C E G Bb Db F Ab.

In my next lesson I will explain how to use these tensions to improvise with. Also, this lesson was basically laying down a lot of info down at once, so i doub tsomeone that has never learned any of this will be able to pick it all up. For specific questions, AIM me: FreeMusicNo1 or ask it in this thread. And, while I got the main points, I left some stuff out that would clear up confusion, so anyone that knows his stuff is free to add on to it.

Learning theory on a piano makes it a lot clearer to many people. Also if someone posts some examples of how this comes into play. Eventually (maybe a week or two) I'll post some things with different 7th chords that helped me learn this stuff on guitar. I'm working a lot this upcoming week and I'm lazy so thats why I can't do it right away...

If someone could clear something up for me... Is there a difference between jazz and funk? If there is, what is it? Thanks.

I like it. I will be playing around with that tonight!!!

To Don Mega: Do you mean the theory behind jazz and funk? Or just the style?

For my next lesson: Improvisation.

One of the biggest questions that i get when people are asking me with theory is application of what I tell them. Sure, you know all those scales I listed, but that doesn't do you any good if you don't know how to utilize them.

When playing jazz, much of the time you will be playing over written out chord progressions. One of the most effective ways to improv over these chords is to play the scale that corresponds to each chord.

The first step is to figure out what the root note is. This is very simple: it is the note listed on the chord chart. For instance, a C13's root note is C. Simple.

As you know, a chord is Major if it contains a natural 3rd tone, and minor if it contains a b3 tone. This is the next step in deciding which scale to use for improvisation. If the chord is major, don't use a minor scale over that chord (a scale with a b3), use a major scale (a scale with a natural 3).

Next, identify its "normal" tones (the tones not used as tensions). Usually these will be the 5 and 7 tones, although a 6 tone sometimes replaces the 7th tone. Only use scales that contain the same same confiurations as these tones. After the root, 3rd, and other "normal" (does anyone know the correct erminology for these notes? I'm drawing a blank...) tones, you will have limited your selection of scales down.

EXAMPLES:

If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Maj7 - C Ionian

Because C Maj7 contains these tones: Root (1), 3, 5, 7. The Ionian scale contains [b]1[/b], 2, [b]3[/b], 4, [b]5[/b], 6, [b]7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

E Min7 - E Dorian

Because E Min7 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, b7. The Dorian scale contains [b]1[/b], 2, [b]b3[/b], 4, [b]b5[/b], 6, [b]b7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

A Min7 b5 - A Locrian

Because A Min7 b5 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, b5, b7. The Locrian scale contains [b]1[/b], b2, [b]b3[/b], 4, [b]b5[/b], b6, [b]b7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

G Min (Maj7) - G Melodic Minor

Because G Min (Maj7) contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, 7. The Melodic Minor scale contains [b]1[/b], 2, [b]b3[/b], 4, [b]5[/b], 6, [b]7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord. Notice that this scale is not in the Major scale. Be aware that not all the scales you will use will come from the Major scale.

Now, the next step in deciding which scale to use is figuring out the extended tones of the chords. Usually (or always? I'm not sure...) the tensions will be some type of 9, 11, or 13 tone(s). This step is almost the same as the last, except that you are figuring out the extended tones instead of "normal" tones. Simply find these tones, combine these tones with the ones you already know how to find, and find what scales have these same tones.

EXAMPLES:

If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Min11 - C Aeolian

Because C Min11 contains these tones: Root (1), 2 (9), b3, 4 (11), 5, b7. The Aeolian scale contains [b]1[/b], [b]2[/b], [b]b3[/b], [b]4[/b], [b]5[/b], 6, [b]b7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

D13 - D Mixolyidian

Because D13 contains these tones: Root (1), 2 (9), 3, 4 (11), 5, 6 (13), b7. The Mixolydian scale contains [b]1[/b], [b]2[/b], [b]3[/b], [b]4[/b], [b]5[/b], [b]6[/b], [b]b7[/b]. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

That is one of the most effective ways to solo, and it will always sound good. The only problem is that it can sound very boring if it isn't done well. Play around with it to find what you like, and what you don't.

AIM: FreeMusicNo1 or post them here for questions.

Here's something I got off of another site and edited and fixed up. My complete lesson wouldn't work because I couldn't attach the PDF files of the written music for some reason. :confused:

Well, anyways, here's basicially what my lesson was.

:thumb:
--------------------------------------------------

Functional chord melody is a term I use for the ability to make up arrangements on the fly, to use all of the musical information you know and blend it together into an expressive and cohesive musical statement. This technique is most commonly used in solo, duo with bass, and trio with bass and drum settings.

Melody is the MOST important thing, chords should NEVER interfere with the phrasing and flow
Just like your solos, the theme and the texture of the statement should develop
While chord melody by definition sounds as if chords and lines are always simultaneous, it is actually a variety of techniques:

In its simplest fashion, functional chord melody is a mixture of melody, harmonized melody and chordal response to melody (which might be called comping or call and response).

In order to really play a functional chord melody you must be able to swing the tune in single line fashion. This is mandatory. If you cannot do this, it should be practiced first! Once you are comfortable with the melody and have an awareness of the basic harmony, you are ready to begin.

There are simple things you can do with the basic chords that create motion or the appearance of motion and assist in the rhythmic flow or swing of the performance in their basic forms:

Diatonic: Playing scalic ideas or harmonized voicings (often referred to as modes)
Inner voice movement: Moving tones (commonly called voice leading) inside a voicing is a great way to create movement and direction without a bunch of new harmonic data being thrust on the tune or listener. First try the 5th. Move it chromatically up to the 6th and back. I'm sure you'll recognize having heard this in many people's playing. If it is a dominant 7th chord, go up to that tone from the 5th and back down (maybe to the flatted 5th?). The major 7? +11? Minor major 7? etc. With a dominant 7th chord, another effective movement in use is the b9 to #9. You probably play it in blocks all of the time.
Parallel: Chord voicings always work when moved in parallel fashion and are very easy on the guitar! Smooth resolution is affected if all of the notes resolve in a uniform way. While chromatic resolution is the smoothest and easiest, try other sequential groupings.
Harmonic: This is a large group, one that consists of substitutions, chromatic (parallel and other) and superimposed progressions. For "function" it is important that you NEVER interrupt the flow or try to stuff so much in that you arrest the melodic and rhythmic flow. Harmony is color and should be your last consideration.

Examples:
An Aminor chord: The first harmonic thing would be to create motion from and back to that chord. The most obvious is Aminor to E7 and back to Aminor. Or A minor to Bb7 to Aminor. In the last case, it contained what is often referred to as the tritone substitution. Regardless of its name, I'm sure you recognize its relativity to the parallel concept with only one different note. It is also contained in the moving voice section as the notes in the chord except the root is the same as the chord it is replacing and its 5th to 6th motion is the same as the b9 and #9 of E7 (the original chord)

You might also create progressions:
Aminor, F#m7b5, E7b9
Aminor, G13, F13, E7
Aminor, Cmaj7, B7#5, Bb13

And that's before you use bass motion (ascending and descending, chromatic, diatonic, whole tone), extend the progression, modulate or any one of a number of techniques you are probably already using in other songs.

With these ideas in mind, and a desire to vary and develop your statement, play the attached chord melody of Days Of Wine & Roses.

How to read the charts
Because there are no bar lines or exact rythmic values to the melody notes, you MUST know the song. As these are all commonly played standards, find at least two versions by some of your favourite artists. This will give you a good idea of the basic melody of the song, as well as ideas for personal interpretation at a later date. (If Miles Davis' band played it, it is probably the most commonly referred to version).

Play the note(s) written and then play the corresponding chord (above). When you see a note with an arrow pointing to a chord diagram, you may play the chord and melody simultaneously or the melody note first. When one or more chords are in succession without a melody tone below, play them as a progression, setting up the next part of the melody.

Chords may be played as blocks (with a full strum), or broken, (in finger style or picked fashion).

Argh... I will never be able to understand this... :(

Try the more basic stuff under guitar in the lesson section. I was j/w how old are you WTHIAG? You used to always just post sarcastic comments about things and no one seemed to know anything about you before the jazz forum (at least what I saw)

Spastic:
[quote]Theory Guru MX Jazz Chief[/quote]

I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.

Proove him inferior, post some of your recordings.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zoroaster [/i]
[B]Spastic:

I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, man. I put "Theory Guru" as a joke, only because I know more theory than a lot of people here, and try to help anyone that asks me. I don't believe I know everything about theory. But I also didn't post everything I know in this thread.

And I'm glad you enjoyed my songs :rolleyes:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zoroaster [/i]
[B]I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure. [/B][/QUOTE]

You're certainly one to talk about pretension. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zoroaster [/i]
[B]Spastic:

I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wait, no one else gets it.

Zoroaster is either Android or someone pretending to be. It's something from Thus Spake Zarathustra (Neitzche) and from Mesopotamian legend.

It's a wanna-be TSZ. Sad.

To Zoroaster:
Don't be an as[i][/i]s. Seriously, he understands theory dam[i][/i]n well for a 14 year old. Sure, his compositions aren't exactly Coltrane level, but don't be an as[i][/i]shole.

TO EVERYONE: Compare grammar structure and word usage to TSZ's posts. Big imposter here.

:thumb:

Spastic, can you write up a lesson based on the scale implimentation thing you learned while at the Berklee class? I forget what it was, and I forget if I know it or not :o

tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor

Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by manuscriptreplica [/i]
[B]tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor [/B][/QUOTE]

True, if the scale is played straight through. But in jazz, usually it's used to play a V7 chord that can resolve to a minor 1 chord. The natural 7th allows this.

Also, sorry zerokewl, but the one scale implementation clinic they gave was [i]way[/i] out of my league :( None of the students there got it, save 2 or 3 guys that were around 30 :p

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BirdsOfFires [/i]
[B]Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, the entire jazz crew is pretty young :thumb:.

[QUOTE]
Also, sorry zerokewl, but the one scale implementation clinic they gave was way out of my league None of the students there got it, save 2 or 3 guys that were around 30
[/QUOTE]

:lol: Ah, I read through the summary you wrote about it in the berklee thread, I think I read something similar before, if I remember correctly it's about using the lydian dominant scale over a V7 chord...I need to practice improv more :o

Well they did go over that:

Lydian Dominant (1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7) or Lydian b7 is used mainly used with tritone substitution. It works because the #4 doesn't conflict with the 3rd of the dominant chord like the natural 4 does in Mixolydian.

BUT

The lecture they gave was quite a bit more complex. It started out with the seperation of altered extended chords and how to use the extensions to form diminished scales. Then it went on and I got even more :confused:

:thumb: