[QUOTE=axgrinder]I've been playing guitar for about 12 years, and only recently have i gotten into jazz playing. My short term goal is to be able to successfully improvise in a ii V i progression (one of the main jazz progressions). I've learned my major 7th, minor 7th, dom 7th, 6th, 9ths chords and i know that i should focus around the chord tones while improvising (primarily the 3rds and 7ths).

My question is: When improvising jazz solos, do i use any scales/modes or can i just play anything, as long as i focus around the chord's target notes? I notice alot of jazz solos use chromatic notes, which makes me wonder if any scales are used. What can i do to make my jazz improv sound more "jazzy", as to my current approach, which is using the major/minor scales over this progression?

Example of what i'm doing over ii V i Progressions...

Dm7 > D Dorian, focusing on F notes (the 3rd of D)
G7 > G Mixolydian, focusing on F (the 7th of G)
Cmaj7 > C Major, focusing on E (the 3rd of C)

This just doesn't sound "jazzy" to me. Should i just forget about scales and concentrate on just playing anything (chromatic lines) between target notes?[/QUOTE]

well, you're doing everything by the book i must say...do keep up the scales exercises, but also add chromaticism. that helps resolve notes to other chords. try different kinds of 2-5-1's, too (minor, diminished, etc.). and i don't know if i would start with 2-5-1's...i would start with easy blues - that is, if you're just starting to improvise. and the key to playing jazz is to listen. you should really listen to players in order ro get things into your head - ideas and such. for Dm7, don't stay in dorian. you can also go to locrian, or use the blues scale, or the penatonic scale, or diminished scales, or anything. chromaticism, too! and i would suggest going through a song and finger-picking the 1, 3, 5, and 7 of each chord in an eighth note pattern just to get it in your head. for example (just an example):

C7 D-7
/ / / / |/ / / / |
CEGBbGEC |DFA CA FD |
1+2+ 3+4--|1+2 +3 +4-- |

then go to first inversion, second, third. that'll really help get it under your fingers. just a bit of advice to get those chord notes in your head :)

don't limit yourself to anything. you CAN play anything. whatever sounds good to you. resolving notes are a good thing to use to help jazz it up. and transcribing solos is a good thing, too. listening will really help you, i think.

hope that helps

rat pack lives

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]

don't limit yourself to anything. you CAN play anything. whatever sounds good to you. resolving notes are a good thing to use to help jazz it up. and transcribing solos is a good thing, too. listening will really help you, i think.

hope that helps

rat pack lives[/QUOTE]

^^^ good advice.

when you are playing, you dont have to just focus on chord tones. you can use tensions notes (notes that arent in the chord) to color your improvisation. like, if you held an A over a G7. it sounds interesting.

you dont want to resolve to chord tones ALL the time because it gets monotonous after a while.

To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???

[QUOTE=axgrinder]To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???[/QUOTE]

i'm not too familiar with many jazz guitarists...at least not off the top of my head. :D the ones that come to mind are pat metheny, wes montgomery, and george benson. but you shold also listen to players of dirrerent instruments to get more ideas. although it's not guitar, bass guitar can sometimes help. victor wooten is an AMAZING bass player. you could also check out charles mingus or jaco pastorius for some good big band playing with a star bassist. for bebop, go with charlie parker, clifford brown, cannonball adderley, or dizzy gillespie. for soul, i love cannonball. he's so ****ing good it hurts. umm...well i'm blanking out right now, but you get the idea.

also, the reason they sound out of key is because there are many "rules" in jazz that aren't in rock or whatever. a lot of it has to do with modes or inversions and, like you said, chromaticism and tension. for instance, you will rarely use a flat 9th in a rock song. it just makes it sound out of key (unless the song calls for some weirdness ;) ). just listen A LOT and learn your modes and inversions. that little exercise i mentioned in my last post is a good way to learn your inversions.

could someone explain to me the twelve-tone technique (or dodecaphony, if that helps at all).

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique[/url]

[QUOTE=quatre07][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique[/url][/QUOTE]

thats funny, because thats where i first heard of this technique and thats the explination i dont really understand. i had a friend explain it to me somewhat. he told me you had to play all 12 notes in the scale before you could repeat notes. was just wondering if there was anything else to it. and if someone could possibly explain the charts/tables it gives you.

if anyone has any other insights on composing and playing atonal music then that would be awsome. this subject has just sparked my interest is all.

[QUOTE=axgrinder]To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???[/QUOTE]
Wes Montgomery
Charlie Christian -although they sound similar but don't limit yourself to guitar players there are great saxophone players as well as other instrumentalists that are just as good if not better

i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?

for any of you jazz guys that have been gigging for a while- what are the scales you woudl reccomend that i learn if i want to be a gigging jazz bassist? i know alot about harmony etc, but i just dont want to waste my time learning some obscure scale that ill never use. i also dont want to come to a situation and not be prepared, i hate that feeling.

thanks!

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?[/QUOTE]

um...they're used for augmented chords...what are you talkin about?

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]for any of you jazz guys that have been gigging for a while- what are the scales you woudl reccomend that i learn if i want to be a gigging jazz bassist? i know alot about harmony etc, but i just dont want to waste my time learning some obscure scale that ill never use. i also dont want to come to a situation and not be prepared, i hate that feeling.

thanks![/QUOTE]

learn all of them. walking is real important. and learning styles is important. IN ALL KEYS!

[QUOTE=spastic]Not much, just finishing sophomore year of high school. Once school is over, I'll be able to focus much more on music. This summer I'm taking the 5 week performance course at Berklee, hopefully that will be a good experience.[/QUOTE]


cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there

[QUOTE=what again]cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there[/QUOTE]

5th!

Hopefully I'll see you guys around. What instruments do you guys play? I'm going for (electric)bass.

I dont very much care for the musical stylings of jazz. They just dont seem to interest me very much.

[QUOTE=what again]cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there[/QUOTE]
I have a friend going there his name is Andy Ma'fua he's from New Zealand going over there to do the five week course
He plays gat but is brilliant on the keys

[QUOTE=PuNk]I dont very much care for the musical stylings of jazz. They just dont seem to interest me very much.[/QUOTE]

well, most cockmunchers don't like jazz...let me guess, you like punk rock? :lol:

you havent found the right type of jazz for your styles. Its none of it is as mindless as punk, but comtemporary smooth jazz comes close

so I was just stumbling across this forum, recommended by my friend. I'm a member of the forum at [url]http://www.allaboutjazz.com[/url], its an awesome forum for jazz if anyone is interested. Anyway, I've been debating over this question fro some time, and I decided to try and get some more opinions on it.

Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring, and choppy when it comes to skipping around in the positions.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.

The idea I came up with was to learn to solo using only chord tones at first, because they are the bones and foundations that hold jazz solos together. However, to avoid simply invisioning five arpeggio forms across the neck would also defeat the purpose. The only solution I've seem to come up with to figure out how to break out of the guitar-box form is to think in terms of notes. IE, a Cmaj7, play C E G B all over the neck. not simply an ionian scale form, or a major arpeggio form.

anyone have thoughts on this?

sorry if something like this has been covered in this thread, but I really dont have the time to read through 14 pages :P

[QUOTE=TheSeanKelly]so I was just stumbling across this forum, recommended by my friend. I'm a member of the forum at [url]http://www.allaboutjazz.com[/url], its an awesome forum for jazz if anyone is interested. Anyway, I've been debating over this question fro some time, and I decided to try and get some more opinions on it.

Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring, and choppy when it comes to skipping around in the positions.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.

The idea I came up with was to learn to solo using only chord tones at first, because they are the bones and foundations that hold jazz solos together. However, to avoid simply invisioning five arpeggio forms across the neck would also defeat the purpose. The only solution I've seem to come up with to figure out how to break out of the guitar-box form is to think in terms of notes. IE, a Cmaj7, play C E G B all over the neck. not simply an ionian scale form, or a major arpeggio form.

anyone have thoughts on this?

sorry if something like this has been covered in this thread, but I really dont have the time to read through 14 pages :P[/QUOTE]

well, what ive found is that when i first started learning the modes i was very stuck to playing in the "boxes". but as you practice more, the barriers just melt away until you dont really need to follow the scale positions anymore.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not exactly sure what they're for, but I was just thinking about all the chords that could be substituted over them. Say, C augmented, wouldn't E7 and Amaj7 both work pretty well?

Meh, I'm still not good at figring out good chord substitutions, besides the tritone.

[QUOTE=TheSeanKelly]
Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.


anyone have thoughts on this?

:P[/QUOTE]

Nearly every good jazz player will eventually learn to just play the melodies they hear in their heads rendering 'boxes' sort of irrelevant. Put down your instrument for a little bit and listen to a chord progression. Once you get the feel of it start singing a melody and keep singing until you run out of ideas. Ideally what you just sang should be what your solo over this progression sounds like because you came up with this without the limitations and habits that go with your instrument. With practice you should be able to play melodies like this while you sing them, composing in your head and working out the fingerings simultaneously.

This may take months or years to nail but it should be the ultimate goal of any aspiring jazzer. Personally I haven't quite mastered it but I'm well on the way.

Okay, I didn't understand much of that, but it looked interesting. Imma try to grasp it later today.

is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?[/QUOTE]

yes, it is common.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?[/QUOTE]

No. Lydian is commonly employed over maj7#11 chords. Lydian doesn't have a b5, it has a #4. True, the interval is enharmonic, but they function completely differently.

Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.

[QUOTE=Tom]Someone please explain quartal harmony please, and give me a few diagrams for them for guitar.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Quartal harmony is the harmony used in Eastern music (Western music uses the "Tertiary" system). "Quartal" means 4 (as you can probably tell), which means four notes in the basic chord as opposed to three. Another difference is found in the design of chords-- QH doesn't involve the same basic triads plus another note or something of that type:

The chords of this type of harmony are based on stacked perfect intervals. The perfect intervals include the p4, p5, octave, and unison. So, if we stack fourths starting with B, we get this chord:

B, E, A, D (B, D, E, A in ascending order. However, qurtal harmony does not use the ascending order system, which is why a piano is inconvenient for this type of music).

10-
10-
9--
9--
---
---

If we add yet another p4 interval, we get a G. The chord is then B, E, A, D, G. Oddly enough, thie is a mode of the G major pentatonic scale. If you were to employ this as a scale or arpeggio, it could be played as such:

-----------------------7-
------------------8-10---
--------------7-9--------
----------7-9------------
-----7-10----------------
7-10---------------------

And you can get interesting "Oriental" sounds in your jazz soloing with scales like that. In particular, this mode:

--------------------5-7-
----------------5-8-----
------------4-7---------
--------5-7-------------
----5-7-----------------
5-7---------------------

[Some user asks a question about removing the 9th and 11th from the 13 chord]

[QUOTE=Saxamassima]it's called a major 6 chord. think of the chord as a dominant 7th chord with the seventh lowered again - C E G A (Bbb). it would most likely be written as C6 or C13 and usually incorporates the major scale when improvising. you don't ALWAYS have to layer thirds on top of eachother to create a chord.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry.... but nearly everything that you said is wrong or a half-truth:

A dominant 13 chord's degrees are as such: 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13

As a guitarist, tone omission is a necessity. The first [b]extension[/b] tone that would be removed is the 11th (4th/3rd interaction is bad). 1-3-5-b7-9-13

And then the 9th. It and the 13 are on equal standings as far as importance to he dominant chord, but as this is a 13 chord, the 9th should first be omitted. 1-3-5-b7-13.

And the weakest tone of all (the 5th) can go. 1-3-b7-13 is STILL a 13 chord. The most common voicing is:

-
5
4
3
-
3

Or (with the 9th)

5
5
4
3
-
3

Those are both G13 chords, with or without the 9th or 5th or 11th! The point is: function.

Tones are omitted for two reasons: 1. Finger convenience and 2. Sound of chord and voicing. If you were to retain all tones of a dom13 chord (G again), you have: G, A, B, C, D, E, F. This is the G Mixolydian mode! Playing a scales notes all at once (in the same octave) is never a good thing. Granted, the notes are spaced out and a G13 chord is really G-B-D-F-A-C-E. But that weakens the 13 extension and is, again, NON practical for any harmonic instrument.

So, a G13 is theoretically 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13. In practicality? No. Among a community of guitarists and pianists, the 11th is not vital by ANY means (or the 9th, or the 5th) to the 13 chord.

(For the record, the tones of a chord in order of strength and importance are as such (greatest to least): Third, Extensions, Seventh, Root, Fifth. Surprising at first, but true if you look at it and lay it out).

EDIT: That Bbb thing is NOT a good way to look at things.

Bbb is a bb7. Not a 6. Enharmonic, yes, but by no means similar in function. NOt even good to think about it that way.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]
Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.[/QUOTE]


my mistake :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]No. Lydian is commonly employed over maj7#11 chords. Lydian doesn't have a b5, it has a #4. True, the interval is enharmonic, but they function completely differently.

Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.[/QUOTE]


so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?[/QUOTE]
all of lydian will work because in the chord you have a 1,3,5,7,and#11, so a 5 will still work along with the #11.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?[/QUOTE]

Lydian in jazz is played almost exclusively over maj7#11 chords.

Look at the scale degree formula and the chord formula:

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

maj7#11: 1 3 5 7 9 #11

The #11 and #4 are identiacal. Lydian has a perfect fifth, the most common chord it's played over has a perfect fifth, there's nothing to worry about with the 5th. Like all three major modes, Lydian has a major triad. Don't see the #4 as a fifth of any kind. See it as a #4. This means that Lydian should be avoided over chords with a 4 or 11 in them. Not a p5 or #11.


Because maj7#11 chords aren't extremely common (they pop up here and there) here's the best way to use a Lydian-esque mode in jazz:

Take a G dominant chord (G7, G9, whatever). The best (most sensible) scale to employ over this chord is G Mixolydian. However, you can make a 10x more interesting sound using the Mixolydian scale a tritone up (Db Mixo). However, there's one problem: the p4 in Db Mixolydian (F#) will clash horribly with the G7 chord. So, we can raise this 4 to a #4 to make this a Lydian scale. This is actually called "Lydian Dominant" because it still has a b7 (remember, "dominant" means a major triad and a b7, which this scale has). This also happens to be the 4th mode of Melodic minor.

That's the most common Lydian melodic substitution.