[QUOTE]the 6/7 day period.[/QUOTE]
I have a good question for you, it's been buggin me for a while:

If a day is simply one rotation of the Earth, how can you define "day" if the Earth, at one point during this whole 8 day period thing, didn't exist?

A day is also 24 hours.

[QUOTE=Hive]I have a good question for you, it's been buggin me for a while:

If a day is simply one rotation of the Earth, how can you define "day" if the Earth, at one point during this whole 8 day period thing, didn't exist?[/QUOTE]

Not sure. Good question. It's shaky no matter which way you look at it. Either God made the heavens and the Earth (in one pretty, light filled gesture), and immediately thereafter designated the rotation of this new planet...a day (seperating the light from the dark).

Or, the Earth was already there after the formation of the Universe (which could have taken billions of years) and God returned to it, to define the day/night cycle. Sounds...better, but ultimately it's still flawed, surely, because it means that everything after the first day, takes place within 3 or 4 24 hour cycles. Just the minor details like:

Sky
Land masses/mountains/islands
Flaura/Fauna

Which in reality would have taken a long...long time to appear. Not a few days.

[QUOTE=Hive]I have a good question for you, it's been buggin me for a while:

If a day is simply one rotation of the Earth, how can you define "day" if the Earth, at one point during this whole 8 day period thing, didn't exist?[/QUOTE]


You're confused. He created the Heavens and the Earth. [B]THEN[/B] sometime afterward he started the week. I may have got that wrong but for reasons beyond my understanding, the first day wasn't until he started creating the earth. Your conclusion makes sense, but it seems there's something missing here, but I'm pretty sure I got it right.
(chimp's 2nd explanation makes pretty good sense)

[QUOTE=chimp_spanner]Not sure. Good question. It's shaky no matter which way you look at it. Either God made the heavens and the Earth (in one pretty, light filled gesture), and immediately thereafter designated the rotation of this new planet...a day (seperating the light from the dark).

Or, the Earth was already there after the formation of the Universe (which could have taken billions of years) and God returned to it, to define the day/night cycle. Sounds...better, but ultimately it's still flawed, surely, because it means that everything after the first day, takes place within 3 or 4 24 hour cycles. Just the minor details like:

Sky
Land masses/mountains/islands
Flaura/Fauna

Which in reality would have taken a long...long time to appear. Not a few days.[/QUOTE]

So your saying even if there was a God of the universe, even he wouldn't have the power to bring up vegetation?

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]MattSharp up above states that dinosaur fossils "hundreds of millions of years old" and a "6000 year old" Earth is a mystery. Think about it. If I keep the time the same way God did in the first few <a href='http://consumeralertsystem.com/cas/zx-hclick.php?hid=64' target='_blank'>books</a> of the Bible, then someone's lying. [/QUOTE]


I agree with the 'someone's lying', but I mean, the bible is filled with things that don't make sense, and things that don't fit. Hardly anything that scientists say go along with the bible, but how do we know which is correct?

[QUOTE=Carly9]I agree with the 'someone's lying', but I mean, the bible is filled with things that don't make sense, and things that don't fit. Hardly anything that scientists say go along with the bible, but how do we know which is correct?[/QUOTE]
You agree with him?

jesus, i leave for st. thomas for a week, and i come back to find threads like this...

[QUOTE=Hive]I have a good question for you, it's been buggin me for a while:

If a day is simply one rotation of the Earth, how can you define "day" if the Earth, at one point during this whole 8 day period thing, didn't exist?[/QUOTE]
because the ancient humans who sat around camp fires thinking these stories up to pass down to their children had nothing else. They didnt know that the sun rotates around the sun and the earth and moon rotate around a common axis, etc. Its something they could relate to tell the stories. Look at all of the humanizations and personafications of the God idea. Just like an all powerful being saying.."whew..I've worked so hard,I'm gonna take a break on the seventh day" Give ME a break. And like God making rainbows as a reminder that he'll never get quite so pissed off as he did then and murder so many innocent women and children because he supposedly forgot about his perfect omnisicent and omnipotence. I can make a friggin rainbow in the backyard with a water hose...or a glass prism.

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]So I was thinking. And I have came to a roadblock in my thoughts. Biblically, man first appeared on the Earth in roughly 4004 B.C. That is if you take the Bible literally. Now it could have been around any amount of time before that. In the seven day period God created the planet though, it was 4004 B.C.

So where do dinosaurs come in? Were dinosaurs alive during the time of man? That is/was my guess. As I thought more though, I decided that dinosaurs may well not have even existed. It may in fact be one of the most elaborate hoaxes, or sinister, known to man.

Here's a thought: Assuming you believe in God, did Pangaea exist? What is the similarity between the shorelines of all the continents? Did God have a hand in this 'Pangaea' or was it by coincidence?

On with the dinosaurs though, where did they come from? Was it a creation of God, or did Satan have an influence? I'd like to add in at this point that the fallen angels, the Nephilim, who spawned most of the Earth's inhabitants, may have had a more sinister plan for the Earth. When God destroyed the population in the Great Flood (minus Noah and his), it was a sort of cleansing for the population. If Pangaea was real, it may have seperated during this great catastrophe. All the dinosaurs may have been destroyed, too.

In retrospect, I have a hard time straying away from the idea that dinosaurs never existed. I think it may have been a hoax. I have no reason to believe God sat them here, and if they did exist, I wouldn't be surprised if He didn't.

Comments?[/QUOTE] :lol:
Dinosaurs...an elaborate sinister hoax perpetuated by satan...to confuse and befuddle of course...to lead you astray.
:lol:

the nephilim? You would think that god wouldnt make angels that could actually copulate with humans. That is if he forgot that he knew what they would do before he created them in the first place, he seems to forget his omnipotence alot. Funny how the nephilim came after the women because they were beautiful. Lust? from angels...based on the human body and features? And where were the female angels going after the male humans? Oh, or were there no female angels in the chauvenistic creation stories of old? guess not, unless they were lesbos "finding the women beautiful".
More biblical nonsense.

The nephilim story is the only religious way of speaking about what every culture has recorded. We have been vistited. If you dont tie it in with your religion then religion loses its power because us humans become less special, and too many questions arise. So these stories have to be brought in an wrapped into a religious explanation. Just like God descending from the sky and landing on top of a mountain in smoke. Why does god have to descend from the sky? Why use the sky..why not come up from the earth? Spinning wheels within a wheel with lights and "eyes all about", and God leading people at night by a light in the sky and a cloud in the day time...as if the all mighty creator cant appear before people any better than this. These are only ancient peoples explanations as best as they could within the narrow minded confines of their religious thought processes.

But you have to be cloaked. You cant have the people seeing a shape that can be recorded in history and later compared to future shapes...and have this supposedly had been god. Why couldnt god be a bird, or another talking donkey for crying out loud, or a symbol in the sky. I know why...it wasnt god.

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]Oh, yeah? Well I've seen and heard of people born with a third nipple, a sixth finger, a sixth toe, and many other abnormalities.

By golly!! I bet it's evolution!! :wave:



No, you're an idiot. The chances of being born without an appendix are less than for me to get struck by lightning. As is a sixth finger or third nipple. You ask me to research evolution before I argue it. Why don't you read the thread first before coming in on the [B]12th page[/B] to give me your half-baked opinion?

Seriously, birth without an appendix proves no more than a third nipple. And I'm sure that I could school you in anything science related. So why don't you move along.[/QUOTE]

:lol: I read the thread. Read my other post, the one before the appendix. Stop being so ignorant towards others opinions. I mean as a christian you're supposed to be tolerant of others beliefs, after all christianity is the most forgiving and tolerant religion :lol:.

I forgive you for calling me an idiot, I mean it's coming from a guy that dosen't believe the dinosaurs existed and maybe not even the universe! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[QUOTE=PianoDan]



You go to God's Heaven if you are a Christian. You do not go to God's Heaven (and go to Hell, the place of destruction of the soul) if you are not a Christian.

[/QUOTE]

Christianity is pretty biggoted. Truth ++

[b]"So your saying even if there was a God of the universe, even he wouldn't have the power to bring up vegetation?"[/b]

Missed the point entirely. Set that aside - the Bible tries to imply that the process of sculpting the face of the Earth as we know it today took place within 2 or 3 days, around 6000 years ago (according to you). That, is absurd. Did he put fossils in the rocks too, just for the heck of it? Primitive man may have thought mountains are attributable to God. Now we know it is the result of the collision of tectonic plates driving rock and crust upwards into mountain ranges which yet again, takes a very long time. Do you deny this, also? A lie by scientists? And vegetation I mentioned, only because alot of modern day Christians like to attribute the processes nessacary to create life, to God, as opposed to attributing its direct creation to him (the whole intelligent design thing). Even if that was the case, plants didn't appear for a very, very long time after the Earth came into being. And it's taken thousands and thousands of years for them to reach the stage they have, starting from the most primitive grass like plants which would have been the dominant type, all the way up to the countless types we have now.

All of which is incompatible with your idea that man appeared around the same time that all of this was supposedly occurring - some 6000 years ago. Simply not possible.

The reason I'm stating this (there is a reason) is that all the evidence shows that the Earth has been around for millions of years, during which time it's probable that the planet saw life flourish, and die, perhaps more than once. The Dinosaurs were part of this process. Even though you may not trust/like the idea of Carbon dating because...well...you just don't want to, the results prove that Dinosaurs fit nicely into the overall development of the planet and all the life on it.

[QUOTE=Merkaba-1]
the nephilim? You would think that god wouldnt make angels that could actually copulate with humans. That is if he forgot that he knew what they would do before he created them in the first place, he seems to forget his omnipotence alot. Funny how the nephilim came after the women because they were beautiful. Lust? from angels...based on the human body and features? And where were the female angels going after the male humans? Oh, or were there no female angels in the chauvenistic creation stories of old? guess not, unless they were lesbos "finding the women beautiful".
More biblical nonsense. [/QUOTE]

The nephilim aren't angels, they are the giant offspring of the wicked. Angels do not mate because they are asexual.

They arent asexual are they? God makes em.

[Quote=PianoDan] You go to God's Heaven if you are a Christian. You do not go to God's Heaven (and go to Hell, the place of destruction of the soul) if you are not a Christian.[/Quote]

I'm Jewish, I guess I'm going to hell. :wave:

I believe differently from most ppl on how god created the universe. I think he created the big bang and let everything evolve out on its own. Helping certain things to evolve (ex: cells, the complex things that make the cell work) I think the bible is just really a metaphor of how he really created the heavens and earth. Maybe days are just time periods. Time periods that could be millions of years long.

I believe that dinosaurs existed and pangea existed, but I still believe in god. He just simply made these things and let them happen.

[QUOTE=amostbitterseason]Hey guys, check this out. Satan's plan to mislead humans!

[url]http://www.ananova.com/images/web/76416.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]

rofl

This guy's like Flying Barron and Fenwood & tarico before him; borderline-retarded trolls who don't even read posts before they repeat themselves.

The average Christian doesn't take the bible literally.
Bad thread.

[QUOTE=MegaPhony]The average Christian doesn't take the bible literally.
Bad thread.[/QUOTE]

Mr Flush seems to

[QUOTE=PyRoMaNiA674]I believe differently from most ppl on how god created the universe. I think he created the big bang and let everything evolve out on its own. Helping certain things to evolve (ex: cells, the complex things that make the cell work) I think the bible is just really a metaphor of how he really created the heavens and earth. Maybe days are just time periods. Time periods that could be millions of years long.

I believe that dinosaurs existed and pangea existed, but I still believe in god. He just simply made these things and let them happen.[/QUOTE]

See? Good, this is an example of taking the bible metaphorically. Much more believable then the literal aspect and something that the majority of christians do not seem to do.

[QUOTE=camelfarmer]They arent asexual are they? God makes em.[/QUOTE]

They do not have a sex. They are neither male nor female. Yes God makes them.

[QUOTE=Katana]rofl

This guy's like Flying Barron and Fenwood & tarico before him; borderline-retarded trolls who don't even read posts before they repeat themselves.[/QUOTE]


123

[QUOTE=Metal_Licker]Mr Flush seems to[/QUOTE]


123


I think it' funny how I get flack for being a Christian. I post in a thread, and I'm immediately criticized by 20 atheists. Come on guys, we can do better than that. :)

We ought not be so divisive. United we stand, divided we fall.

For as much as I've proclaimed my Atheism on this board, perhaps I've mis-used the term. I believe that there are things about life that can't be explained by our [i]current[/i] scientific knowledge. I emphasise current because I like to believe that there are other aspects of our reality that lie beyond our perception. Maybe there are forces at work that, to us at this time, could be described as divine, magical, whatever, but that also obey certain laws relative to the domain in which they exist. And these forces have a direct influence on the reality we experience. Does that imply higher intelligence, spiritual planes, and other such stuff? Pff, don't ask me! I'm just "making up" my own theory too ;) It just doesn't fit in with mainstream religion.

I'm not attacking you for being Christian man - sorry if it appeared that way! It just seems to me like you've yet to learn alot of stuff (example: because you don't know, or haven't been taught about the principles behind evolution, you just assume there's no evidence?? Genes, DNA, cellular division and mutation, etc.?? Just because you don't know that stuff doesn't make it a lie) and by one comment you made, it sounds like you live in a pretty sheltered, small town where they don't have no fancy museums with giant bones ;) But so do I! Proper turd-hole town *cries* But we're on the net! That's the biggest resource available to you. Open your mind and accept new possibilities. It's just a very argumentative and bold gesture to try and rubbish what most people would argue as "the facts" using nothing but your blind faith. That won't get us anywhere. But no, I'm not attacking you for being Christian.

Gunna go eat bacon now :)

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]Evolution doesn't exist. It's ridiculous to think so. If you want a good defense of science's credibility, why not take the polio virus? That accounts for some credibility. I don't deny the vaccine. So to some extent I believe in science. You say that though you never have seen a bat, you're sure they exist. Why not the same blind faith with God?

The barrier here is I don't believe in evolution and to try to back it up using science which I don't altogether agree with either is going nowhere. If you can prove to me evolution is logical, I still won't believe it but it will be a lot more feasible.
[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]Evolution doesn't exist. It's ridiculous to think so.[/QUOTE]

Evidence? There's plenty to support evolution if you open your eyes.

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]That goes against your claimed '99.9% accuracy'. Science looses credibility when it supports hair-brained schemes at undermining Christianity.[/QUOTE]

Science never made an attempt to undermine any religion. Many scientists were Christians. Science merely attempts to describe the world as we see it, and work out the principles underlying it. Sometimes this comes at odds to things written in the Bible and other religious texts. In this case, it tends to be religion which tries to undermine science. (Consider Galileo, kept under house arrest by the Catholics)

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]You say that though you never have seen a bat, you're sure they exist. Why not the same blind faith with God?[/QUOTE]

It's not blind faith I have in evidence of a bat's existance. I've seen many pictures, I've seen things about them on TV and in books. The general consensus is that they exist, and if I were to decide that I believed bats don't exist, someone could prove me wrong by borrowing one from a zoo and showing it to me. At this stage I would be forced to change my mind or decide that my senses couldn't be trusted.

If I say God doesn't exist, could you ask him to show himself to me? To prove his existance? You couldn't, because there is no evidence for Him here. That doesn't disprove his existance. Some argue that a perfect God wouldn't leave any evidence of his being here because a perfect system wouldn't need constant intervention.

[QUOTE=Volumnius Flush]The barrier here is I don't believe in evolution and to try to back it up using science which I don't altogether agree with either is going nowhere.[/QUOTE]

Yes. And that means you're predisposed to reject evidence in favour of it, no matter how strongly evolution is supported.

As for a logical system (and one compatible with the biblical teachings!), I posted this on page 16, in response to your arguement that evolution couldn't happen because each species only breeds with its own:

[quote=the_uber_penguin]It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that whenever a cell divides there is a chance of a random mutation. It is these random mutations that cause cancer.

However, sometimes these mutations are useful.

Mutations which give an organism an advantage allow it to thrive, and soon its offspring with the mutation will dominate the population. This is an observable process.

When two colonies of the same species (i.e. birds living on different islands, monkeys living in different forests) have very little breeding between colonies, the advantages gained by each are very unlikely to be the same. By this method, they grow more and more different until (and no-one is quite sure where to draw the line here) they are different species. This is also an observable process (and is the bane of researchers trying to come up with new anti-biotics, because they keep seeing new species of bacteria appearing)

This means it doesn't matter that species only breed with their own kind. In fact, if the interbreeding you imply is necessary for evolution actually happened, there would be no diversity of life. Just one very mixed species of organism.
In fact, it is the "only breeding with their own kind" that causes small changes to get exaggerated into the big changes that show up as evolution.[/quote]

I think the difference between our two arguements is that you're asking for a blind leap of faith, while the scientists are putting forward various reasons, however creditable or otherwise, for their case.

If you were to argue [b]for the case of God, instead of against the case of science[/b] I think you would make more ground, as people tend to go with what they can see, and beyond your first post I don't see any arguments that may support the case of God.

[QUOTE=Metal_Licker]You take the bible too literally. Take it metaphorically instead and remember that the bible is a story, it is not gods writings, it is the writings of man. The bible is a guideline for how the authors thought life should be lived. Do you remember the story that someone may have told you as a child of the chicken who wanted the other farm animals to help make bread. None of them did but when the bread was finished they all wanted some but the chicken would not share as they did not help? That is a story but it teaches you that if you want someone to help you, you have to help them. Does anyone take this story literally? Did a chicken really make bread? No of course not you have to take the story metaphorically, same with the bible, to really understand that it is only a story but also an example of how to be a good person. I am not attacking you this is directed to everyone and I am not trying to start an argument but trying to get people to question their own beliefs and realize the obvious. Only by questioning what you already know and then deciding for yourself wether or not you chose to believe it can you really understand what all this is about. BTW incase any of you ask no I am not christian, I was raised to be but I have my own beliefs, I believe in being a good person and that is all. I mean its pretty selfish if you live your life being false to people because you want to go to heaven. Be a good person for the sake of being a good person and not for your own gain.[/QUOTE]

My beliefs. Volumnius Flush I apologise if it appeared i was attacking you because you're christian. This post is from a couple pages back and I wanted you to read it, maybe you'll see from a different perspective on your beliefs and realize that it is much more important being a good person then a good christian.

The Bible is a brilliant moral guide (the New Testament at least - the Old Testament is a bit outdated, with its whole "eye for eye" thing).

While there was a preacher called Jesus, who was born around the right time, there is evidence to suggest the Bible is any truer then the Greek myths, Aesops fables, or Jesus' parables, and, IMO, shouldn't be taken as any more then that. At that stage you're jumping to conclusions.

[QUOTE=the_uber_penguin]Evidence? There's plenty to support evolution if you open your eyes.[/QUOTE]

The same could be said about God.

[QUOTE=siva_chair]The same could be said about God.[/QUOTE]

Faith would not be considered evidence by a court of law Siva.

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]Faith would not be considered evidence by a court of law Siva.[/QUOTE]


That wasn't my point. My point was, I could say there is proof of God if you opened your eyes. Have you ever thought that the reason you do not believe in God is because you have not sought him?

Plus, I have lost quite a bit of faith in our modern court of law. Look at some of the latest crap that has happened in them.

But I have sought him... I just have never found anything that says to me I should believe in him, nor has he "revealed himself" to me...

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]But I have sought him... I just have never found anything that says to me I should believe in him, nor has he "revealed himself" to me...[/QUOTE]


Perhaps you have not sought hard enough?

I know that if you seek Him, you will find Him. I promise you. It may be a difficult road and you may have your doubts (we all go through doubt), but you will find what you seek.

Well, I've settled into solipsism. Its a much nicer way to explain everything. There is absolutly no inconsistencies :p

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]Well, I've settled into solipsism. Its a much nicer way to explain everything. There is absolutly no inconsistencies :p[/QUOTE]

There is no inconsistencies with my belief either.

You believe as such, but people can try to find some, and then you defend them, as is often the case in many threads.

With solipsism, you can't even find any. Its solid 8)

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]You believe as such, but people can try to find some, and then you defend them, as is often the case in many threads.

With solipsism, you can't even find any. Its solid 8)[/QUOTE]

And have I ever not been able to defend them adequately?

To a satisfactory degree, but remember, regardless of what they say, might does not make right.

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]To a satisfactory degree, but remember, regardless of what they say, might does not make right.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean might does not make right?

I mean, of course, in this instance.

Just because you are one of the smartest posters on here and can run circles around merkaba, doesn't mean you are correct int he global sense.

A guilty man can be found not guilty if his lawyer is the better one.

[QUOTE=NOFXFreak]Just because you are one of the smartest posters on here and can run circles around merkaba, doesn't mean you are correct int he global sense.

A guilty man can be found not guilty if his lawyer is the better one.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I know, but I have yet to find any contradictions that don't have a reasonable and logical explanation to them.

Did you ever get back on the roman rulership and tax laws...?