Is the pentatonic scale inherent in humans?

[Berner]

http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/08/the_pentatonic_is_fundamental.php

The video is the important part here.

Judging by how the crowd just "got" what note came next in the sequence, is it possible that the pentatonic scale is just part of who we are? Does this explain why so many guitar players can't seem to not play it all the time?


Discuss

[DBoons Ghost]

One could argue they were simply the next notes in the sequence based on the space between the pitch he himself assigned at the beginning of the "exercise".

Pretty cool nonetheless. It's a very natural progression too. Even when humming a tune. People often take it for granted.

[Mr. Ron]

Very cool video.

[spitfirejunky]

This kind of constructive overlap of waves that occurs in audible sound can be made sense of mathematically (and thus intuitively) so this isn't that surprising. Cool nonetheless.

[RNR]

Agreed. Plus people who listen to blues-based music will quickly pick up on which notes come next in sequence. Something like the pentatonic scale isn't inherent in humans, it's learned logic. Just like most music theorists agree that the major scale is the most "perfect" and plain sounding scale.

This thread is enraging B.F. Skinner's ghost. Good job, now he's going to haunt you.

[Berner]

**** Skinner he can kiss my ***.

I can definitely see how it is learned though. I more or less just really liked the video.

[Moon Flavor]

Eh I doubt it's inherent I think it's just how music has been ingrained in everybody's heads since they were born.

Just like how the "natural" time signature is 4/4. It's just what everybody grew up with so that's what most people normally make music in.

Sweet vid though

[Jude]

Something like the pentatonic scale isn't inherent in humans, it's learned logic.
You assert this based on what evidence



This thread is enraging B.F. Skinner's ghost. Good job, now he's going to haunt you.

With what? A couple decades of misguided psychology which some of the social sciences STILL are mired in?

[Neur0heiler]

well idk maybe

I wonder the same thing about the swastika

it would explain why I'm always drawing it on the sides of synagogues

[Jude]

no that's because you have douchebag genes

[here comes the bird flu]

Eh I doubt it's inherent I think it's just how music has been ingrained in everybody's heads since they were born.

Just like how the "natural" time signature is 4/4. It's just what everybody grew up with so that's what most people normally make music in.

Sweet vid though

^^^

[Neur0heiler]

no that's because you have douchebag genes

do you think I'm serious

there aren't any synagogues on my white nationalist compound

[Agr1m]

I honestly think if the demonstration had not been carried out by a black man, the audience would have been lost.

[YDtoad]

You assert this based on what evidence


You can look at the fact that it is not inherent to all humans. Some people just don't get notes, and won't be able to come up with the next one. Some people don't differentiate tones.

[Pop music sucks]

Steve I feel guilty in that I laughed a little when I remembered my association with you and dead notes.

:(

[YDtoad]

Steve I feel guilty in that I laughed a little when I remembered my association with you and dead notes.

:(

:angry::p

I can't hum a pentatonic scale, actually, or any scale. I can hear it in my head, and music theory comes pretty easily to me, but I can't translate that into vocal expression.

[Pop music sucks]

It's alright there's only like two people that will get that:p

Me too. I'm so horrible at coming up with vocals.

[P13]

I remember watching this, it's pretty interesting
it'd be cool to try this out with people

[Neur0heiler]

:angry::p

I can't hum a pentatonic scale, actually, or any scale. I can hear it in my head, and music theory comes pretty easily to me, but I can't translate that into vocal expression.

this might change if you start jerking off steve

just try it

[Jude]

You can look at the fact that it is not inherent to all humans. Some people just don't get notes, and won't be able to come up with the next one. Some people don't differentiate tones.

Well, "inherent to all humans" doesn't include EVERYBODY, just like "human universal" doesn't. In this case, it would exclude people who aren't neurologically normal

anyway I didn't actually read any background on this to see if they have other empirical grounds for saying it's innate to all humans I'm just saying it could well be

[RNR]

You assert this based on what evidence



With what? A couple decades of misguided psychology which some of the social sciences STILL are mired in?

If someone has listened to blues-based music they'll be able to pick out the next logical note in the pattern more easily, as the minor pentatonic scale is all they ever use in blues-based music.

Also I was being facetious about the Skinner thing.

[sweboy]

It would be interesting to test it on i.e Indian people who have grown up with different scales.

[Neur0heiler]

RNR why the hell do you hate behaviorism so much it's like you despise reality or summat

[Neur0heiler]

Anders jag vill prata med dig

[RNR]

RNR why the hell do you hate behaviorism so much it's like you despise reality or summat

I don't hate behaviorism, I find merit in much of it and find fault in much of it was well, just like anyone. B.F. Skinner's ghost just tends to haunt people who don't agree with his radical views so I was giving a warning. Because nobody likes to get haunted. It sucks.

[Neur0heiler]

essentially, behaviorism is better than any other psychological paradigm

pretty much every researcher uses it in some form or another, though not exactly in the original sense

[Berner]

essentially, behaviorism is better than any other psychological paradigm


Surely you can't also be lumping biological psychology into that as well.

[Neur0heiler]

in the sense that it looks at measurable behaviors rather than making stuff up like Freud and Jung yes

behaviorists stopped denying that the internal mental states exist decades ago, clue into the nineties please

[Berner]

But don't behaviourists just think it's all about the environment and not the biology of the person?

[Neur0heiler]

no

some of them used to, but then neuroscience and cognitive science started to get rolling and they had to revise their beliefs

now we look at external and internal behavior

modern behaviorism is just about banishing bullpoop from the study of mind

[Berner]

Ah ok then that's something I can get behind. Most of the psych I took in University never really discussed about modern behaviourism just about the old guys (Watson, Skinner etc).

[Neur0heiler]

tbh even Skinner came along late enough to know better than claiming "the mind doesn't really exist, let's forget about it"

that was more Watson, and we can sympathize with his approach because neuroscience was really really new at the time plus psychoanalysis was still all the rage ... he was reacting against it

and sorry about the abrasive tone of my posts I was in an argument with crypto-creationists just recently

http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-science/5583-veracity-evolution-10.html#post86050

[Berner]

Understandable. I always want to kill everyone after talking to those vapid morons.

[Berner]

Also since he's arguing that whole non-life to life thing, show him this.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/biologists-on-t.html?npu=1&mbid=yhp

[Neur0heiler]

"Lol, so typical of the dogmatic E-theorist cult member, why not at least try some original fallacious arguments? I have an excellent science education, but please, assume I don't so you can further establish yourself as a know-it-all, disrespectful jackass."

yeah hey damn I realized I was being a know-it-all jackass I mean clearly this guy was expressing only the deepest humility in challenging thousands of biologists who know better than him

[Neur0heiler]

I showed that guy rich the thing about the M. genitalium genome being replicated but not this, I never saw it before pretty siqq bro tack som fan

[Neur0heiler]

personally I can't wait until we can make something that can have a thick Dutch accent and quote Blake

[McP3000]

i am against pentatonic scales i am too progressive of a musician

[gregulus]

It would be interesting to test it on i.e Indian people who have grown up with different scales.

This.

[McP3000]

isnt music relatively based in an abstract form of math? wouldnt it just make sense that the scale isnt embodied in humans, but the next logical progression from the last note?

[Berner]

"Lol, so typical of the dogmatic E-theorist cult member, why not at least try some original fallacious arguments? I have an excellent science education, but please, assume I don't so you can further establish yourself as a know-it-all, disrespectful jackass."

yeah hey damn I realized I was being a know-it-all jackass I mean clearly this guy was expressing only the deepest humility in challenging thousands of biologists who know better than him


I lol'd and head slapped myself at this

Hmmmm that looks like the exact same graph as scientists who supported the fertility drug thalidomide.


What an idiot. He doesn't even understand that that was just due to poor enantiomer selection and testing.

[fingers mccoy]

This.

indian people have grown up with the pentatonic scale tho

[spitfirejunky]

You assert this based on what evidence

The intervals follow a pattern in a mathematical way, much the same way that if I count 4 consecutive natural numbers, you'll be able to tell me the 5th. Only sound is based on frequency ratios.

isnt music relatively based in an abstract form of math? wouldnt it just make sense that the scale isnt embodied in humans, but the next logical progression from the last note?

In this case yeah. But I can just as easily be facetious and say that the next number in the sequence 1, 2, 3, 4 is 4.1 . Most people will be able to reason that it's 5 if you stick to the interval pattern.

[Neur0heiler]

I lol'd and head slapped myself at this

you should totally join this forum

look at how I smacked down California guy again

http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-science/5583-veracity-evolution-11.html#post86086

[Berner]

I don't study enough philosophy to join a forum devoted to it. I am however getting interested in the topic and am probably going to be checking some out soon. I've got a couple of Nietzsche books at home. I want to check out some Kant and Spinoza too. I've also got some Descartes and Pluto kicking around my room from that Philosophy class I took (where I didn't read any of it).

[Neur0heiler]

you can just troll anti-science people that's what I usually do

Plato btw lol

[Berner]

It was supposed to be reading for the course. It's his 5 dialogues.

[sweboy]

a general rule-of-thumb that i use to evaluate philosophers i haven't read: if he's dead, he was probably wrong

[Neur0heiler]

just read Meno or something that's nice and short

tbh they don't really care whether you read Plato or whoever in great detail there I just troll

@ Berner

[Neur0heiler]

lol Sweboy

[Jude]

no

some of them used to, but then neuroscience and cognitive science started to get rolling and they had to revise their beliefs

now we look at external and internal behavior

modern behaviorism is just about banishing bullpoop from the study of mind
Well that's not even really behaviorism in anything but name so

[Neur0heiler]

yes it is

the definition just changed

the qualia of consciousness are still not understood, they're not behavior, we can't study them

[Berner]

just read Meno or something that's nice and short

tbh they don't really care whether you read Plato or whoever in great detail there I just troll

@ Berner


Ok I registered but I put gregulus as my referrrer.


lol

[Jude]

yes it is

the definition just changed


Yeah to something that's not behaviorism

I mean I could be like "Nazism is a central part of American political discourse, but it's a Nazism that's abandoned all the racist doctrines and adopted a democratic outlook" but then I'd just be stupid

or I could start calling an elephant a tree and it would be the same thing

[Neur0heiler]

http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-mind/4403-consciousness-biological-problem-66.html#post86289

[Neur0heiler]

Yeah to something that's not behaviorism

how is it not behaviorism

[Ceminon]

I don't think I'm all that impressed by that video.

[TerranYouApart]

sounds like "paint it black"

[Jude]

how is it not behaviorism

how did you not read my post

[Neur0heiler]

it's behaviorism revised

Juden raus!

[Jude]

It's not "behaviorism revised" it's something completely other than behaviorism

definitions only have their meaning by common agreement, and while you can make up new definitions for whatever words you want and then base stupid semantic arguments on them, nobody else is going to listen to it if your made-up definitions are so bizarre that they don't have any relation to the commonly agreed on definition

[gregulus]

But really. Has this same behavior been exhibited in people who haven't grown up in the western tradition of music?

[Neur0heiler]

It's not "behaviorism revised" it's something completely other than behaviorism

definitions only have their meaning by common agreement, and while you can make up new definitions for whatever words you want and then base stupid semantic arguments on them, nobody else is going to listen to it if your made-up definitions are so bizarre that they don't have any relation to the commonly agreed on definition

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/behaviorism/

Skinner claimed that neural activities subserve behavior/environment relations and that the organism's contribution to these relations does not reduce to neurophysiological properties. But this does not mean that behaviorism cannot gain useful alliance with neuroscience. Reference to brain structures (neurobiology, neurochemisty, and so on) may help in explaining behavior even if such reference does not displace reference to environmental contingencies in a behaviorist account.