Intersex Individuals

[gregulus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/20/what-sex-is-caster-semenya

It's the first question any parent asks after the birth of their child: is it a girl or a boy? In very rare cases, the midwife has to say honestly: "I don't know."

There are babies born who, left to grow up without medical intervention, will be both and neither. They have been called hermaphrodites, pseudohermaphrodites and intersex children but doctors now prefer to speak of sex development disorders, because a disorder can often be put right. These children do not have to live their lives in a state of sexual ambiguity. If the condition is identified early enough, they can be given help to grow up with a specifically male or female body.

In the past such babies were sometimes subjected to surgery verging on the brutal. Others will never have been detected or will have chosen to go through life without seeking medical help with little chance of ever having a child themselves. Some, particularly those called "over-virilised" women, may have sporting potential because of their unusual strength. At the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 eight female athletes failed sex tests but were cleared on appeal and seven of them were found to have physically developed as neither fully female nor male.

The International Association of Athletics Federations is going to muster a host of experts to decide whether Caster Semenya is a man or a woman. According to Professor Wiebke Arlt, professor of medicine at Birmingham University, the question of which is the most appropriate sex when a child is born is a relatively straightforward one.

Aside from very rare exceptions, all of us have 46 chromosomes, plus the pair which, in most cases, decides our sex. Either we have what they call 46,XX and are female or 46,XY and are male. But sometimes there is a mismatch between the body's male and female hormones and those key chromosomes. Sometimes that can be corrected so that the chromosomes decide the sex, but sometimes it cannot and the hormones have to prevail.

One of the more common disorders but which only occurs in one in 15,000 births, has made great beauties of women who technically were born male. (There has been unsubstantiated speculation that actors Marlene Dietrich and Greta Garbo had this disorder, although such rumours could easily be explained by people's discomfort with their androgynous appearance.) Their chromosomes are 46,XY and they have male hormones, but those hormones cannot act because of a mutation in the protein to which they are supposed to bind. "They would look and behave like a girl," said Arlt. "Many models and film stars have this disorder. They are very tall and slender featured, very beautiful with peachy skin.

"They usually find out because their period doesn't start. They do not have a uterus: the vagina ends blind. They have testicles in the abdomen which must be removed or they can become cancerous.Apart from the fact that they can't bear children, they are completely female." Yet these women have XY chromosomes. If sex testing were limited to chromosomes, they would be declared male.

At the other end of the spectrum are those who are 46,XX and should be female, but have too much action from male hormones, because of a deficiency of the stress hormone, cortisol. Somebody with this condition, called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, "may look on the outside like a boy," said Arlt, "but once a month they may have blood in their urine. "The genitalia doesn't need to be completely male, it can be somewhere in between. These days, doctors would do genital corrective surgery quite early on." Normally somebody with this condition would be assigned a female identity but Arlt has had such patients in her care who were raised as boys and are now middle-aged men with families. Hormones are key to sex, but levels vary from person to person. "There will always be women who are more muscular and have more male movement," said Arlt. It doesn't have to mean they are men.

For those of you who might not be aware, Caster Semenya was almost disqualified from the 800m championship race because she is not "entirely female", giving her an advantage over the other runners. As the article I posted points out, it is hard to distinguish what constitutes being "entirely" one sex or another. Should intersex individuals be allowed to compete in gender-specific sporting events? How should we define what sex an individual is?

[Iskandar]

I saw a documentary on this which convinced me pretty easily that intersex children should maintain their genital integrity. They should not be surgically "corrected" against their will, and they should not be raised with a strict gender identity. This only tends to inflict psychological and physical damage which leads to emotional trauma and identity confusion later in life.

As for how to best accommodate them, that's a whole other issue. We might see some precedent in our handling of transgender issues (which, let it be known are still not as enlightened as they should be. Case in point, this spell checker doesn't even recognize "transgender" as a word).

[fafafafa]

mine recognizes 'woman' but i guess that was just a plot by evil white dudes to make women think they are making progress

[RNR]

This makes me wonder how I would behave towards someone who was neither male or female. I feel differently talking to a male than with a female and although sometimes the difference isn't blatantly obvious I definitely behave differently towards a female than I do a male. With a transgender person it would either be one, the other or something completely new. Part of me thinks I would just put my head in my shirt and run away in whichever random direction I happened to depart in. The decent part of me hopes that I wouldn't have any prejudice but I can't know that for sure until I'm thrown into the situation.

[Iskandar]

Maybe it's time to throw your preconceived notions of male and female out the window and just talk to people like they are people.

[fafafafa]

but you dont want to sleep with people you want to sleep with girls thats why you talk to them differently

[Iskandar]

You don't want to sleep with all girls.

Do you treat your male and female friends the same?

[fafafafa]

no of course i dont

i flirt outrageously with the guys

[Iskandar]

Whatever turns you on.

[RNR]

Maybe it's time to throw your preconceived notions of male and female out the window and just talk to people like they are people.

That's easier said than done. It's not like it's the result of conscious reasoning or deliberation. Talking to women makes me feel different than talking to men and and that feeling tends to manifest itself in the way I behave, albeit subtly. I suppose part of it is sexual tension, sometimes, and the product of societal gender role, but it's difficult to describe. Even if I'm thinking "yo dis biatch aint neva gonna gimme sum" I'll still act in such a way, not to make her want to gimme sum, but so that she is more likely to say to other women "he's not my type/too young, etc but if you wanted to suck him off or something I would approve because he's a great guy". That's not the only thing I do differently but it's a good example.

[Mr. Ron]

Why is it bad to treat men and women differently? The feminine and the masculine are complimentary and different. They should be celebrated not homogenized.

[Iskandar]

Okay.

Gender roles are silly but being attracted to women is normal for you. Acting differently because you want to bed someone is a given; acting differently just because they're female is dumb.
Why is it bad to treat men and women differently? The feminine and the masculine are complimentary and different. They should be celebrated not homogenized.Because everyone is different.

[Mr. Ron]

Okay.

Gender roles are silly but being attracted to women is normal for you. Acting differently because you want to bed someone is a given; acting differently just because they're female is dumb.
Because everyone is different.
Of course everyone is different. However, there are good things that the masculine and the feminine bring to the table.

You're being silly because you act differently around females all the time, you may just not notice it.

[Aklerc]

I saw a documentary on this which convinced me pretty easily that intersex children should maintain their genital integrity. They should not be surgically "corrected" against their will, and they should not be raised with a strict gender identity. This only tends to inflict psychological and physical damage which leads to emotional trauma and identity confusion later in life.

As for how to best accommodate them, that's a whole other issue. We might see some precedent in our handling of transgender issues (which, let it be known are still not as enlightened as they should be. Case in point, this spell checker doesn't even recognize "transgender" as a word).
Couldn't have put it better myself.

We can only start dealing with accomodating for intersex [/aspects of transgender] needs (in so many situations other than sports) when people can start to think and comprehend people outside of the rigid binary gender roles that are drilled into us. And when you consider how uneducated people are (as proved by the fact transgender isn't recognised by your spell checker), we're a long way off that.

As awful as how they treated her was (regardless of the results), I hope it raises some awareness and some sympathy for trans/intersex communities, rather than this sick obsession society seems to has with needing to know what's not just in people's pants, but in their chromosomes as well. Also see Lady Gaga for similar, immature reactions.

This makes me wonder how I would behave towards someone who was neither male or female. I feel differently talking to a male than with a female and although sometimes the difference isn't blatantly obvious I definitely behave differently towards a female than I do a male. With a transgender person it would either be one, the other or something completely new. Part of me thinks I would just put my head in my shirt and run away in whichever random direction I happened to depart in. The decent part of me hopes that I wouldn't have any prejudice but I can't know that for sure until I'm thrown into the situation.
Yeah but the chances are if you think like this then you're either going to automatically label the person you're talking to in your head as male or female anyway without even knowing and just get on with it. You don't start talking to someone and they introduce themselves as "Hey, I'm intersex! Let's have a conversation!"

It's just a fairly typical heterosexist attitude.

Why is it bad to treat men and women differently? The feminine and the masculine are complimentary and different. They should be celebrated not homogenized.
Uhh because men can be feminine and women can be masculine as well. There's nothing in particular at all that makes a man a man or a woman a woman therefore why treat them differently?

[Iskandar]

I'm glad to hear that from a transgendered person.
Of course everyone is different. However, there are good things that the masculine and the feminine bring to the table.

You're being silly because you act differently around females all the time, you may just not notice it.
I don't know how I act differently around my female and male friends whom I have no sexual interest in.

Ron what's masculine? What's feminine? Are they group traits, or individual traits? Think about it.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't know how I act differently around my female and male friends whom I have no sexual interest in.

Ron what's masculine? What's feminine? Are they group traits, or individual traits? Think about it.
Idk, if you were playing football with a group of friends I'm sure you wouldn't tackle a female as hard as you would tackle a male. (depending on body size, of course).


They are largely group traits brought ab out by biology and some social factors. There are always exceptions like transgenders and whatnot.

[Iskandar]

Okay but biological traits aren't really what I'm talking about. The physical differences between men and women are manifest; our subjective ideas about what's masculine and feminine are not.

[RNR]

Isky makes a good point about the difference between everyone. Many males have classically feminine traits and vice versa, in the end it's meaningless.

I suppose my acting differently based on gender role actually ties into the element of sexuality. Come to think of it I behave similarly towards gay guys as I do to women who I have no chance with for the very same reason. So perhaps there's more of a conscious element to it than I thought.

[Iskandar]

Our ideas about male and female are generalizations, that's the problem.

RNR, I want to ask: would you treat a gay guy differently before and after you knew he was gay? Ie. you had no idea until he told you some time after meeting him.

[RNR]

Yes I would most likely try to charm him and get in his good books. Even if he didn't regularly talk to a lot of girls I know, gay guys usually know a lot of ladies which means that if we became friends he would introduce me to ladies or hook me up. It's a generalization that all gay guys are like that but I think that it's a fair one. If it turned out that there was no chance of that though I probably wouldn't make that extra effort to be charming.

BTW, It's a phase. I think. Let's not turn this into judging my ethics.

[Smokey D]

Why is it bad to treat men and women differently? The feminine and the masculine are complimentary and different. They should be celebrated not homogenized.

The masculine and feminine are social constructs not biological determinants.

By the way, people are probably as diverse within their genders and sexes as they are between them. Those differences should be celebrated.

Idk, if you were playing football with a group of friends I'm sure you wouldn't tackle a female as hard as you would tackle a male. (depending on body size, of course).

I don't think anyone here pretends to be immune to being enculturated in a way that treats women differently to men.

Of course it is an entirely social thing that says we can't hit women, though.

[Iskandar]

Yes Ron treat people as individuals not groups.

That doesn't mean groups don't exist or aren't valuable but that people are infinitely more diverse than the convenient categories we place them in.

[Pop music sucks]

I treat a person as an individual and not some preconception that society tends to instill.

That's mostly because I'm an open-minded person and partly because I have a slender frame for a guy. A guy with a slender frame isn't seen as 'masculine'.

[JohnXDoe]

only one solution: The Intersex Olympics

[Iskandar]

Adding credence to the notion that gender and attractiveness are subjective, both slim and muscular men have been considered desirable at one point or another as well as slender or curvy women.

[Mr. Ron]

Big ol' booty

[Pop music sucks]

Adding credence to the notion that gender and attractiveness are subjective, both slim and muscular men have been considered desirable at one point or another as well as slender or curvy women.Yeah but I've been confused for a woman on multiple occasions.

Anyways, gender is just a notion. I don't see people in strict gender. They're pangender to me since the younger generation is genderbending more openly than the prior generations have.

[Iskandar]

Big ol' bootyYeah that's something that differs between ethnic groups even.

And between individuals.
Yeah but I've been confused for a woman on multiple occasions.Do you have long hair? That's probably half the problem.
Anyways, gender is just a notion. I don't see people in strict gender. Sweet.

[Pop music sucks]

Yeah, my hair is long. I don't mind the confusion though, gender has no bearing on me, although I can recognize when someone wishes to be noticed as a gender they want to be seen.

[Ando!]

iskandar long hair is a gender role why don't you think b4 u speak silly

[Mr. Ron]

Is gender bad?

[Ando!]

whats the diff between gender and sex again

srs

[Neur0heiler]

intersex individuals = beta males

[Pop music sucks]

Gender is what you identify yourself as. (A woman identifying as a male or vice versa)

Sex is a biological definition. (A person born with female genitalia.)

[Neur0heiler]

but wouldn't you agree that being a beta male is the same as assuming the female gender

[Pop music sucks]

No because you're assuming that males are the only ones that identify as the other sex.

"Beta male" to me is a wrong definition. You're just placing the assumed emotions of a woman into the body of a man. Identifying as the other gender is deeper than that. They want others to see what they see themselves as.

[Neur0heiler]

you don't understand the art of the pickup do you

[Iskandar]

Is gender bad?Strict gender roles are because they enforce conformity instead of permitting individual expression.

[Pop music sucks]

I'm pragmatic. I see no point in spending effort to bed someone for a few nights.

[Neur0heiler]

yeah right you wish you could be an alpha male PUA like me

[Iskandar]

Casual sex can be fun.

[Mr. Ron]

Indeed.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

If you support strict gender roles, you practically supported the holocaust.

[Iskandar]

Very astute observation. The Nazis did support traditional gender roles. There is a clear link with authoritarian thinking.

[Mr. Ron]

Authoritarian thinking: Gets **** done while looking good.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Yeah, Ron loves efficiency, especially when it involves trying to eliminate an ethnic group.

[Mr. Ron]

They started it!

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

If only they stuck to the dominant male/submissive female formula...

[Mr. Ron]

If only they stuck to the dominant male/submissive female formula...
If only they stopped making their cheesecakes and bagels so god damned good.

[gregulus]

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/13/ilsashe_wolfssposter_2.jpg

Mr. Ron, I found your dream woman.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

if only they didn't morph into rodents at sun down.

[Mr. Ron]

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/13/ilsashe_wolfssposter_2.jpg

Mr. Ron, I found your dream woman.
Lets face it. I think all of us would at least once be dominated by a woman in an SS uniform. I mean, life is too short to not take part in such a thing.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

I heard when she's done with you, her vagina turns into an oven that she throws you in. True?

[Mr. Ron]

v v true

Ok I don't want to derail this thread anymore.

[Iskandar]

If only they stuck to the dominant male/submissive female formula...Sounds hot.
If only they stopped making their cheesecakes and bagels so god damned good.Mazel tov.

[DENEpants]

gender constructs are engrained in our society and it's unfortunate because i think if women and men were treated as equals we could get more of the intelligent population instead of resigning half of them to servitude.

[nator]

Casual sex can be fun.

how would you know

[Neur0heiler]

moderator Iskandar did it with Michelle Obama while the president was in Egypt

[DBoons Ghost]

I dislike predefined courses determined by gender and this is evident now that my daughter has begun to determine this by way of toys.

"Only boys can play with cars" or mostly "only girls can play with dolls" are common.

Honestly I do nothing to correct her. I'm not sure I should.

I prefer not to practice that myself but women in the workplace still define themselves as women by way of action or inaction.

I believe this will change as we move through generations, just as we have so far.

[Neur0heiler]

smackin dat black booty

[DENEpants]

I dislike predefined courses determined by gender and this is evident now that my daughter has begun to determine this by way of toys.

"Only boys can play with cars" or mostly "only girls can play with dolls" are common.

Honestly I do nothing to correct her. I'm not sure I should.

I prefer not to practice that myself but women in the workplace still define themselves as women by way of action or inaction.

I believe this will change as we move through generations, just as we have so far.

you may not be defining her as a girl/woman but children see things in black and white and when they get definitions from others, like in school, they apply those and begin culturally assimilating in that way. I think the kind of toys a child plays with define what kind of mind they will develop, if she says only boys can play with cars, correct her. because she can, she can choose not to but the choice is all hers.

[DBoons Ghost]

you may not be defining her as a girl/woman but children see things in black and white and when they get definitions from others, like in school, they apply those and begin culturally assimilating in that way. I think the kind of toys a child plays with define what kind of mind they will develop, if she says only boys can play with cars, correct her. because she can, she can choose not to but the choice is all hers.

Yeah I do correct her but not so much anymore. I am kinda happy she's a girly girl right now.

She does play very well with her cousin's toys too all the same. He's a boy.

I do not allow Bratz and some Polly Pocket stuff I have either returned or outright thrown away though. My wife and I disagree on Barbie dolls but I am a fan of fighting the battles worth fighting.

Luckily the wife agreed on the Bratz and some of the airhead dingbat Polly Pocket toys are just pathetic. A plane with a built in model runway? Why not just put a ****in stripper pole in the damn thing?

[Aklerc]

I dislike predefined courses determined by gender and this is evident now that my daughter has begun to determine this by way of toys.

"Only boys can play with cars" or mostly "only girls can play with dolls" are common.

Honestly I do nothing to correct her. I'm not sure I should.

I prefer not to practice that myself but women in the workplace still define themselves as women by way of action or inaction.

I believe this will change as we move through generations, just as we have so far.
I think it's important that children should known that they can play with whatever toys they want without it being weird or wrong. And that they grow up without expectations of what girls or boys should and shouldn't do just because of being a boy or girl.

That said, there's nothing wrong or regressive with girls only playing with 'girl' toys or vice versa. I mean in any situation kids need to know that being different isn't wrong, and society is moving forwards in a way that means gender is being considered in that too.

[DENEpants]

yea man, bratz are like barbies on crack hooking on the corner and as long as you teach your daughter what real beauty is barbies aren't too bad.
and Polly pocket's cool ok.. =[ maybe not the runway airplane but you can put her in your pocket and she has rubber clothes!
my niece is only a year and half and i'm determined to not let her gender be a hindrance to fun and learning. she's obsessed w/ books so i can't bitch about anything just yet.

[DBoons Ghost]

I agree Alex no doubt but with the wife and an old school wop family raised Roman Catholic I don't want to confuse her so I have to accept that certain things I tell her will be argued by other family members.

[DBoons Ghost]

yea man, bratz are like barbies on crack hooking on the corner and as long as you teach your daughter what real beauty is barbies aren't too bad.
and Polly pocket's cool ok.. =[ maybe not the runway airplane but you can put her in your pocket and she has rubber clothes!
my niece is only a year and half and i'm determined to not let her gender be a hindrance to fun and learning. she's obsessed w/ books so i can't bitch about anything just yet.

Yeah when I get home we sit with either an Atlas or Beatrix Potter books. Our new thing is fling the globe around and she stops it with a point and where her finger lands is where we learn about. She loves it.

I do dress her Polly dolls with her and I braid her ponies hair. We also play rough sometimes but my wife gets crazy about that.

My family is always "oh my pretty girl" and it freaks me out. Why not focus on her brains instead of getting her stressing about looks from so early on?

So much damage can be done from old school family members who mean well but just don't get it.

[Aklerc]

I agree Alex no doubt but with the wife and an old school wop family raised Roman Catholic I don't want to confuse her so I have to accept that certain things I tell her will be argued by other family members.
Yeah that's understandable. But I'm sure she's a smart kid and will figure it out for herself :) the world is getting better and more tolerant each day.

[DENEpants]

So much damage can be done from old school family members who mean well but just don't get it.
it's not irreparable damage, you're going to be a more solid influence than your entire extended family.

[DBoons Ghost]

Yeah that's understandable. But I'm sure she's a smart kid and will figure it out for herself :) the world is getting better and more tolerant each day.

It is. Glad to see you by the way, I dont see you much around these parts anymore. I fear the place is dying slowly.

[DBoons Ghost]

it's not irreparable damage, you're going to be a more solid influence than your entire extended family.

I sure hope so!

I'm working hard at it. I have to say my wife is a big fan of the predetermined gender roles not being reinforced to her as we're both big fans of the "do whatever you want" thing and not have it be gender specific.

[Aklerc]

It is. Glad to see you by the way, I dont see you much around these parts anymore. I fear the place is dying slowly.
I pop in every now and again, been quite busy with another forum and life recently but I go through mx phases every now and again.