protect and serve

[Raayl]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/32414436/ns/today-today_people/?GT1=43001

ya its another helpless innocent victim tasered story, why is this relevant?

1) just another example of how the police are never on your side

2) another example of how anybody can be a victim of police brutality - law abiding or not (and yes, i consider 50,000 volts of electricity through your heart and CNS brutality)

3) goes to show the relevance of the average cop's psychology. a pussy with a gun.

further

here is an article which contains reference material to the study of the impact of a stun gun on the human body

http://scienceline.org/2007/08/06/ask-sergo-tasers/

[Chris Is Gay]

respect my authoritah

[Raayl]

if you have to taser a soccer mom on the way home from wrestling practice to protect yourself then you're a pussy

[die of starvation]

the alternative is worse for her
just don't resist arrest

[Raayl]

oh great here we go the influx of devil's advocates who are going to placate this kind of behavior from law enforcement

why should i expect any different of MX

did you read the article she wasnt under arrest its a routine traffic stop nor did she pose any threat this was all documented by the camera

[die of starvation]

she wasn't under arrest when she was tasered because she was resisting arrest
just don't do that

[TerranYouApart]

how can you resist arrest if you're never placed under arrest. don't even bother on this one please, tway.

[die of starvation]

you resist being placed under arrest
resisting arrest
that's what it is that's what she was doing

[TerranYouApart]

we don't live in a police state dude the cop has to have a reason to place you under arrest. all he had to do was so i mistook you for talking on your phone

weren't you just in another thread reciting the constitution, and you're going to defend the officer?

[Danish]

Tasers aren't non-lethal weapons. They are less lethal. The rules regarding their deployment should be the same as the rules regarding firearms. I don't trust the police any further than I could throw them.

[suspect device]

****ing pigs at it again, authority abused, power tripping bastards

[fafafafa]

any measurement of trust would not be distance based i think thats a very silly thing to say

[Danish]

any measurement of trust would not be distance based i think thats a very silly thing to say

It's an old cliche. Since the police would be very heavy and I'm only one person, I wouldn't be able to throw them very far, hence...

Maybe it's a little before your time? ;)

[fafafafa]

far in comparison to what?

its subjective, you might be able to throw them far as far as throwing police officers goes

if someone throws a shot put a few feet we dont say they didnt throw it far, because its heavy

i recommend the elimination of this figure of speech from your vocabulary

[Danish]

I'll take it under advisement...

Hmmm now I'm remembering why I haven't posted on here in 3 years.

[jaredong]

come back danish! =(

the drones need you, they look up to you

[Danish]

lol Yea right. The problem with forums like this is that no one listens. It's too easy for people to disrespect each other.

[fafafafa]

you're a sensitive boy if you think that was disrespect

[Mr. Ron]

cool another thread where a few cops **** up and some how make all cops bad

[Zakath]

protect and serve lol more liek punish and enslave

[suspect device]

cool another thread where a few cops **** up and some how make all cops bad

acab or didn't you know

[Mr. Ron]

what

[Raayl]

cool another thread where a few cops **** up and some how make all cops bad

I was waiting for somebody to say this. oh goodie, I'm so glad it was you.

I've never met a cop I liked. I've never been treated with respect, dignity, or professionalism by the police. Nor has anyone I know in my immediate circle of acquaintances

Now, explain to me why I should give a flying **** about these mythological "good cops" that you claim exist somewhere

they aren't here, they aren't handling my town, they aren't handling me or my friends and family. what "good" are they if they're always somewhere else.

sometimes, things are just as bad as they seem. there isn't always some exceptional majority doing the right thing

and with cops i most certainly think this kind of behavior is the majority. what do i base this claim on? my experiences. why? because, well - lets be honest thats all that matters to me. again, dont give a **** about these magical wonderful stoic heroes of the law that exist on some other planet what ****in good do they do me

[Raayl]

some girl in my ethics of criminology course had such a fun little story about the police

she was arrested for drunk driving but her BAC was well below the legal limit. she was abused and mistreated by the police and spent her entire stay in jail crying her eyes out begging to call her parents - which of course they wouldnt let her do

she's a nice girl. very respectable and intelligent and kind. and she said "I always thought the police were on your side. Till I met one up close."

anecdotal, yeah - it is. i'm not trying to prove some greater scheme or conspiracy, merely d0cumenting my experiences and how little it matters to me that some cops "out there" are professionals who rise above petty belligerence and power trips.

[Mr. Ron]

I was waiting for somebody to say this. oh goodie, I'm so glad it was you.

I've never met a cop I liked. I've never been treated with respect, dignity, or professionalism by the police. Nor has anyone I know in my immediate circle of acquaintances

Now, explain to me why I should give a flying **** about these mythological "good cops" that you claim exist somewhere

they aren't here, they aren't handling my town, they aren't handling me or my friends and family. what "good" are they if they're always somewhere else.

sometimes, things are just as bad as they seem. there isn't always some exceptional majority doing the right thing

and with cops i most certainly think this kind of behavior is the majority. what do i base this claim on? my experiences. why? because, well - lets be honest thats all that matters to me. again, dont give a **** about these magical wonderful stoic heroes of the law that exist on some other planet what ****in good do they do me
Idk, I've always been treated nicely by cops. You're just throwing a temper tantrum because you bumped into a few wrong cops. To generalize that all cops are dicks is silly.


lol at the last paragraph. "Nothing matters but me!"



some girl in my ethics of criminology course had such a fun little story about the police

she was arrested for drunk driving but her BAC was well below the legal limit. she was abused and mistreated by the police and spent her entire stay in jail crying her eyes out begging to call her parents - which of course they wouldnt let her do

she's a nice girl. very respectable and intelligent and kind. and she said "I always thought the police were on your side. Till I met one up close."

anecdotal, yeah - it is. i'm not trying to prove some greater scheme or conspiracy, merely d0cumenting my experiences and how little it matters to me that some cops "out there" are professionals who rise above petty belligerence and power trips.
this doesn't mean anything to me.

[fafafafa]

she's not very smart if she was crying for being in jail

and lying about her bac

you know they have machines bro

[Raayl]

she's not very smart if she was crying for being in jail

and lying about her bac

you know they have machines bro

she wasnt lying thats what the machine said

and shes not very smart for crying after being abused by people she thought she was supposed to trust? wow.

[Raayl]

Idk, I've always been treated nicely by cops. You're just throwing a temper tantrum because you bumped into a few wrong cops. To generalize that all cops are dicks is silly.


lol at the last paragraph. "Nothing matters but me!"




this doesn't mean anything to me.

...you didnt answer my question. i simply do not care if good, honest, professional police officers exist somewhere else. point is, they aren't here. when they arrive, i'll be sure to let you know. until then, why am i supposed to care

arent you the guy who said "all sociology classes are a joke, cause i took one once?" or something to that effect? and now you're going to pull the generalization fallacy card? hahahaha. nice move slick.

[fafafafa]

what did the machine say

[Mr. Ron]

she wasnt lying thats what the machine said

and shes not very smart for crying after being abused by people she thought she was supposed to trust? wow.
what exactly is "abused and mistreated"?

[Mr. Ron]

...you didnt answer my question. i simply do not care if good, honest, professional police officers exist somewhere else. point is, they aren't here. when they arrive, i'll be sure to let you know.

arent you the guy who said "all sociology classes are a joke, cause i took one once?" or something to that effect? and now you're going to pull the generalization fallacy card? hahahaha. nice move slick.
there are good cops everywhere. if they were all abusive animals there would be more incidents. There isn't.


No, I'm not that guy. Nice move sounding like 13 year old with too many Rage against the machine posters in his room.

[fafafafa]

mr ron u oppressa' of peoples

[Raayl]

what exactly is "abused and mistreated"?

denied miranda rights denied phone call taunted laughed at psychologically abused not physical but abuse none the less

she isnt a very strong person by nature and thats why im citing this because, again, it doesnt matter whether it's a foul-mouthed deviant like me or a civic-minded soccer mom the police simply dont seem to care about your rights

[Raayl]

there are good cops everywhere. if they were all abusive animals there would be more incidents. There isn't.


No, I'm not that guy. Nice move sounding like 13 year old with too many Rage against the machine posters in his room.

no, it was definitely you

further: I never made the claim "all cops are animals" they most certainly aren't. i'm perfectly open to the concept that in this world of billions there exist honest hard working law enforcement officers

do i know any? nope

thats all im saying, Mr. Ron. Well, I'm also saying that it doesn't matter to me if good cops exist somewhere else - I mean, why should it. But I know, I know - you want to make me seem like I'm saying a certain thing so you can pull the fallacy checkmate. so slick so slick indeed

[fafafafa]

theres no miranda until you are questioned

and they dont have to grant you the phone call immediately

wtf you're dumb

what did the machine say

[Mr. Ron]

denied miranda rights denied phone call taunted laughed at psychologically abused not physical but abuse none the less

she isnt a very strong person by nature and thats why im citing this because, again, it doesnt matter whether it's a foul-mouthed deviant like me or a civic-minded soccer mom the police simply dont seem to care about your rights
You're still acting silly. You have had bad luck with cops in the past and you are butthurt over it. But, I guess a "foul-mouthed deviant" like yourself is living each day on the edge, though. So I can see why the cops would be after you.

[fafafafa]

itt raayl makes up the law again, basically

[Raayl]

You're still acting silly. You have had bad luck with cops in the past and you are butthurt over it. But, I guess a "foul-mouthed deviant" like yourself is living each day on the edge, though. So I can see why the cops would be after you.

I was being self deprecating to placate your insults nice way to pick up on that nothing gets by you does it

further, none of my experiences have ever entailed myself doing something wrong i am a law abiding citizen

[Raayl]

itt raayl makes up the law again, basically

what are you talking about her BAC was < .08 legal limit end of story

[fafafafa]

dear raayl

please oh please tell me what the machine said

i am dying to know

- your friend, fafafafafa

[fafafafa]

what are you talking about her BAC was < .08 legal limit end of story

how old were you

how old was she

14 year olds always making up stories about stuff

[Raayl]

how old were you

how old was she

14 year olds always making up stories about stuff

umm she's 22

[Mr. Ron]

I was being self deprecating to placate your insults nice way to pick up on that nothing gets by you does it

further, none of my experiences have ever entailed myself doing something wrong i am a law abiding citizen
oh am I supposed to sense your emotions through a computer screen my bad

[fafafafa]

was

[fafafafa]

anyway what are you saying raayl

that one of the cops got super drunk and did the evidence test for her

[fafafafa]

cuz i mean that sounds far more realistic than she just made it up

[Raayl]

oh am I supposed to sense your emotions through a computer screen my bad

now now, let's settle down here mr. ron

to recap:

1) i agree with you, not all cops are bad

2) my personal bias would say a majority are, but we can debate that pointlessly

3) it doesnt matter that good cops exist cause they havn't helped me or my friends and family out any

ok, so. there it is.

[fafafafa]

how do we know you and your associates dont ask for trouble

a: we dont

im of the opinion that you'd deserve a tasering right now, and im not even having to deal with you in person!

[Raayl]

cuz i mean that sounds far more realistic than she just made it up

right because cops dont lie in court to serve the state's case ever

the arresting officer didn't even show up and the charges were of course, dropped

that doesnt change the fact she was jailed and not properly mirandized does it

you're focusing on the crime of drunk driving itself, not the arresting procedure, the protocol, and the ethics of enforcing the law and these are the real issues

[Raayl]

how do we know you and your associates dont ask for trouble

a: we dont

im of the opinion that you'd deserve a tasering right now, and im not even having to deal with you in person!

how about cause i don't commit crimes does that count

but you're right we should arrest everyone alive including yourself we dont know who could be up to mischief now do we!

[fafafafa]

right because cops dont lie in court to serve the state's case ever
explain to me how an officer lying can fake a BAC test

that doesnt change the fact she was jailed and not properly mirandized does it
i just told you you dont get miranda until you're questioned hurr

[fafafafa]

but you're right we should arrest everyone alive including yourself we dont know who could be up to mischief now do we!
somehow i've managed to avoid trouble with the police

i dont know, maybe its because im a respectable member of society

[fafafafa]

Imagine that thread.

the preferable outcome being he cant make threads

if you know

what im saying

[Raayl]

explain to me how an officer lying can fake a BAC test


i just told you you dont get miranda until you're questioned hurr

he was lying to arrest her it isnt his job to prosecute her like i said charges dropped

yeah i can see this conversation is gonna go real far

[fafafafa]

how is that related to you whining about miranda when she shouldnt have been given miranda at all

dont try and sidestep out now that you look stupid, answer my questions

[Raayl]

how is that related to you whining about miranda when she shouldnt have been given miranda at all

dont try and sidestep out now that you look stupid, answer my questions

i'm not side-stepping anything you're simply ignoring everything i said about the situation and making stuff up as you go

she was jailed post being questioned by the police and was not listed her rights

aka

not mirandized

i thought i made that clear but with you chad who knows

[fafafafa]

now you're just adding that she was questioned

what exactly did they have to question her about with a positive test result

i think you are lying, why would you lie to your friends on the internet

[fafafafa]

ps you've still to tell me how they faked the bac test

[Raayl]

now you're just adding that she was questioned

what exactly did they have to question her about with a positive test result

i think you are lying, why would you lie to your friends on the internet

she was suspected of drunk driving tbqh i'm not sure when or where the test was administered i do not think it was at the scene rather at the station but this also brings up the issue of chemical test rights

she could have been lying about being mirandized. this was all word of mouth, i didnt talk to her lawyer. so sure, ill give you that chad. but i dont think she was lying about the trauma she experienced as a result of this. that much is pretty clear.

end result is she wasn't intoxicated and the charges were dropped. yet she was still verbally harassed by the police during questioning and while jailed. did they inform her of her rights during this process? maybe, maybe not. her and her lawyer claim not.

[Raayl]

ps you've still to tell me how they faked the bac test

they didn't fake the BAC test that is what exonerated her i already said that, chad - please refer to my post where i clearly state this is not about the crime of drunk driving itself but the ethics of the arresting and questioning process

[fafafafa]

pretty sure she was intoxicated if the test said she was intoxicated

they keep the results its not like they're gonna say hey yeah she was drunk and the judge is gonna say ok cool i dont need to see the results man thats not how it works

[fafafafa]

they cant just arrest people who pass the test they keep a record what

all she'd have to do is make a complaint and they'd look up the result which would apparently prove her innocence and the officers would be reprimanded

but nooooo

[Mr. Ron]

now now, let's settle down here mr. ron

to recap:

1) i agree with you, not all cops are bad

2) my personal bias would say a majority are, but we can debate that pointlessly

3) it doesnt matter that good cops exist cause they havn't helped me or my friends and family out any

ok, so. there it is.
I want you to take a step back from everything, read this sentence a few times and ponder how ridiculous and egotistical this sounds.

[Raayl]

I want you to take a step back from everything, read this sentence a few times and ponder how ridiculous and egotistical this sounds.

thats exactly why i said it why would any reasonable person care about good work done when all they receive is exactly the converse?

[Raayl]

they cant just arrest people who pass the test they keep a record what

all she'd have to do is make a complaint and they'd look up the result which would apparently prove her innocence and the officers would be reprimanded

but nooooo

chad, have you ever been to america? a cop reprimanded in the day and age of drunk driving hysteria? he probably got a pat on the back.

pretty sure she was intoxicated if the test said she was intoxicated

they keep the results its not like they're gonna say hey yeah she was drunk and the judge is gonna say ok cool i dont need to see the results man thats not how it works

and i can clearly see you simply do not have time to read other people's posts - so with that in mind, good day, sir!

[fafafafa]

stop avoiding my points

why didnt she make a complaint

is it because she made it up

maybe she doesnt exist, maybe you made it up!

[Against Miik!]

Yeah you don't know America very well then

[Raayl]

Yeah you don't know America very well then

this

[Mr. Ron]

thats exactly why i said it why would any reasonable person care about good work done when all they receive is exactly the converse?
really, you have to go out of your way to get in trouble with the cops. If you just use common sense there will not be any problems.

[fafafafa]

Yeah you don't know America very well then
people can sue for spilling coffee on themselves

you dont know america it seems

[fafafafa]

im still waiting for an answer to my question

if she made a complaint the evidence would be irrefutably in her favour

she cant lose

so why didnt she if she wasnt making it up

[Raayl]

really, you have to go out of your way to get in trouble with the cops. If you just use common sense there will not be any problems.

I did nothing wrong. I was respectful and polite and not guilty of any crime. Funny, those facts didn't seem to help me any.

Most of the time, Ronny, I'm sure you're right. Not committing crimes is a really easy way to avoid contact with the police. I don't even have so much as a speeding ticket on my record, yet I still have bad police experiences. Wouldn't that point towards an error in the behavior of law enforcement? I certainly think that is a reasonable claim.

For the record, my negativity is towards law enforcement, not the law itself.

[fafafafa]

but u dont know amrca!!!

[Mr. Ron]

I did nothing wrong. I was respectful and polite and not guilty of any crime. Funny, those facts didn't seem to help me any.

Most of the time, Ronny, I'm sure you're right. Not committing crimes is a really easy way to avoid contact with the police. I don't even have so much as a speeding ticket on my record, yet I still have bad police experiences. Wouldn't that point towards an error in the behavior of law enforcement? I certainly think that is a reasonable claim.

For the record, my negativity is towards law enforcement, not the law itself.
I can't really say since I don't know who you are in your personal life.

[fafafafa]

you havent done anything illegal to me but i still think you're a douche lets be honest if i had the power to upset you more than i am now i would

[Against Miik!]

people can sue for spilling coffee on themselves

you dont know america it seems

It's different when the police are involved. The legal system will almost always take their side.

[fafafafa]

It's different when the police are involved. The legal system will almost always take their side.

and you have statistical evidence for this, right

[Against Miik!]

It's really whatever though I'd have a hard time not tazing people who were acting like assholes

[Against Miik!]

and you have statistical evidence for this, right

No it would be impossible to do a study of any sort on that.

[fafafafa]

no it wouldnt

you take number of cases won by defendants

vs

number of cases won by plaintiffs

and level of evidence

[Already_Taken]

cops are generally really douchebaggy people. i don't see how this is even in question.

[suspect device]

what

all cops are bastards, i've never met one that wasn't. and i know you're going to say gross generalisation and stuff and maybe so but its my reality

[Mr. Ron]

ok I'll just take your personal opinion with no real evidence

[Already_Taken]

my reality as well. i interacted with two cops yesterday. both of them bludgeoning idiots on a power trip. the way they talk was so condescending from the start, even though i had done nothing wrong. like they were talking to a 4 year old boy who pushed a girl.

[Mr. Ron]

my reality as well. i interacted with two cops yesterday. both of them bludgeoning idiots on a power trip. the way they talk was so condescending from the start, even though i had done nothing wrong. like they were talking to a 4 year old boy who pushed a girl.
they were really reptilian knight Templars

[Already_Taken]

no they were both meathead square-jawed rednecks with a hard-on for being the boss but no natural talent for it.

[Mr. Ron]

ok whats your point you met some rude cops

[sLarkin20]

Don't do bad stuff and you won't have to interact with them you ****faces.

[Already_Taken]

it was for my new job. a cop came to talk about serving alcohol to minors. it was hilarious.

then i got pulled over on the way home for my inspection sticker being out on a 2006 model car. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Ron]

it was for my new job. a cop came to talk about serving alcohol to minors. it was hilarious.

then i got pulled over on the way home for my inspection sticker being out on a 2006 model car. :rolleyes:
what was so bad about a cop talking about you being responsible



and its your fault for not getting it inspected in time

[stevensonmat2]

Don't do bad stuff and you won't have to interact with them you ****faces.

Unless they pull you over for no reason, **** with you, and then let you go. Kind of like what happened to me once.

Obviously there are good cops, but it has to be realized that the majority of people who end up cops are idiots.

[die of starvation]

we don't live in a police state dude the cop has to have a reason to place you under arrest. all he had to do was so i mistook you for talking on your phone

weren't you just in another thread reciting the constitution, and you're going to defend the officer?
no i wasn't
also the constitution allows officers of the law to arrest people

[suspect device]

ok I'll just take your personal opinion with no real evidence

yeah, i'm cool with that. not out to prove a point, just that any cop i met was a pig. no respect, if you're a criminal then you are dirt, if you are not then you are just a nuisance, to be dismissed

[Mr. Ron]

yeah, i'm cool with that. not out to prove a point, just that any cop i met was a pig. no respect, if you're a criminal then you are dirt, if you are not then you are just a nuisance, to be dismissed
well yeah, in a lot of cases they are

[sLarkin20]

lol how dare they treat scum like dirt

[Chu]

cool another thread where a few cops **** up and some how make all cops bad
Don't worry, typical MX to generalise over a few cases.

I don't think anyone here has any concept of the kind of pressure a cop has to go through, it's all easy to judge, but when you're in their position, I think you may find their actions justified.

[Already_Taken]

Don't worry, typical MX to generalise over a few cases.

I don't think anyone here has any concept of the kind of pressure a cop has to go through, it's all easy to judge, but when you're in their position, I think you may find their actions justified.

the thing is... they chose to be there. nobody forces anyone to be a cop, and if they don't like it they can quit.

[Chu]

That's true.

I haven't even read the story, and I'm not defending them per say, I just find it funny certain people seem to think they could do better, or they know better.

[1338 h4x0r]

It's true a lot of people who want that power shouldn't actually have it but idk some cops are alright I guess

I remember being stopped on two occasions for strange but harmless behavior and in these cases the officers were just concerned with my well-being, that was pretty cool

[cptracks]

What they couldn't take her down without the taser. That's ridiculous

[sLarkin20]

More like awesome.

[DENEpants]

to become a cop you must have a stunted view of justice, you pretty much have to only view laws in black and white. and ive never done something seriously wrong but everytime ive spoken to a cop, in or out of uniform they 1 have a douchebag voice, and 2 speak with a hint of arrogance.

[1338 h4x0r]

it varies but yeah that is true sometimes

why do they often have deep south accents well above the Mason-Dixon line that's what I want to know

[DENEpants]

because racism and deep south accents go hand in hand.

[1338 h4x0r]

good point

[deadinholywood]

I am a serving police member, I am happy to answer any question's that people here have regarding my line of work.

[fafafafa]

why do you think its your business what other people put in their bodies

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

One more, is it possible to have great experiences overall while using illegal chemicals?

[sLarkin20]

I am a serving police member, I am happy to answer any question's that people here have regarding my line of work.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

What is a police?

[TerranYouApart]

I am a serving police member, I am happy to answer any question's that people here have regarding my line of work.

do you agree with every single law you are sworn to uphold?

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

I am a serving police member, I am happy to answer any question's that people here have regarding my line of work.
Are you a cop man

[sLarkin20]

Come on, do I look like a cop?

Now....what can I get for a 20?

[jaredong]

do you agree with every single law you are sworn to uphold?

I am not sure what he would say but, the job of the cop is not extactly to question the laws but to uphold them. Its the difference between the legislative and executive branches of government.

[fafafafa]

i dont think that was the point of the question

[sLarkin20]

I agree with every single law.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

the only people allowed to question authority are those with spikey belts and hair

[suspect device]

I am a serving police member, I am happy to answer any question's that people here have regarding my line of work.

are you working now pig?

[Metal_head]

I think that the idea of using non lethal weapons in policing and warfare is a very good idea from the following reason:
1. It saves the cop from killing an innocent victim, or a valuable target, that can be useful for information.
2.It puts more friendlier face to cops and it will improve the relationship between the police and the community, whereas killing someone and trying to cover it just strains the relationship and the trust between police and the community, e.g. the Britsh police officer or "Bobies" are a perfect example for the police force.
3.Both in military terms and policing terms the ability to subdue your enemy without using too much physical strength or a fired bullet is considered as very good leadership and profesionalism.
And as for crooked cop, honest cop there always be such a division.

[fafafafa]

no i dont think people are upset because they wanted the cops to shoot her instead of just tazing her

[suspect device]

I think that the idea of using non lethal weapons in policing and warfare is a very good idea from the following reason:
1. It saves the cop from killing an innocent victim, or a valuable target, that can be useful for information.
2.It puts more friendlier face to cops and it will improve the relationship between the police and the community, whereas killing someone and trying to cover it just strains the relationship and the trust between police and the community, e.g. the Britsh police officer or "Bobies" are a perfect example for the police force.
3.Both in military terms and policing terms the ability to subdue your enemy without using too much physical strength or a fired bullet is considered as very good leadership and profesionalism.
And as for crooked cop, honest cop there always be such a division.

a sponge baseball bat is non lethal, tasers are less lethal, there is a difference

and weapons won't change peoples perspective of pigs....pigs are the only ones that can do that and they aint interested

[Mr. Ron]

I think that the idea of using non lethal weapons in policing and warfare is a very good idea from the following reason:
1. It saves the cop from killing an innocent victim, or a valuable target, that can be useful for information.
2.It puts more friendlier face to cops and it will improve the relationship between the police and the community, whereas killing someone and trying to cover it just strains the relationship and the trust between police and the community, e.g. the Britsh police officer or "Bobies" are a perfect example for the police force.
3.Both in military terms and policing terms the ability to subdue your enemy without using too much physical strength or a fired bullet is considered as very good leadership and profesionalism.
And as for crooked cop, honest cop there always be such a division.
lol British Police are a joke. They're literally told to "run away" from violent crimes and radio in to the department. Massive failure.

And your third point is stupid. You kill your enemy.



a sponge baseball bat is non lethal, tasers are less lethal, there is a difference

and weapons won't change peoples perspective of pigs....pigs are the only ones that can do that and they aint interested
Still making massive, unfounded generalizations, I see. I guess you ain't interested in being intelligent.

[Metal_head]

a sponge baseball bat is non lethal, tasers are less lethal, there is a difference

and weapons won't change peoples perspective of pigs....pigs are the only ones that can do that and they aint interested
I agree,
Here why I think why everybody doesn't think good of the police, and how the view of policemen/women can improve:
Well, I believe that change in policing methods can improve the viewpoint of policemen and policewomen.
The problem is in the laws and statues and ROE (rules of engagement)that policemen/women operate, and the ones who issue the orders.
The reason why there is no change in the way how police works is that the methods the police use have produced positive effects e.g. low crime rate, and the number of how many criminals are put in jail.
The problem lies in the fact that time follows the rules i.e. a law that is old 100 years old doesn't need changing because it produces a positive effect.
Nobody is putting the issue of community-police relations in America.

[Mr. Ron]

I agree,
Here why I think why everybody doesn't think good of the police, and how the view of policemen/women can improve:
Well, I believe that change in policing methods can improve the viewpoint of policemen and policewomen.
The problem is in the laws and statues and ROE (rules of engagement)that policemen/women operate, and the ones who issue the orders.
The reason why there is no change in the way how police works is that the methods the police use have produced positive effects e.g. low crime rate, and the number of how many criminals are put in jail.
The problem lies in the fact that time follows the rules i.e. a law that is old 100 years old doesn't need changing because it produces a positive effect.
Nobody is putting the issue of community-police relations in America.
idk maybe if you aren't dumb and commit crimes there would be no problems

[Metal_head]

And your third point is stupid. You kill your enemy.

Well if you've read Sun Tzu's Art of War he would state the ability to win conflicts by not firing lot a rounds, the best plan is won by less bullets fired. The issue is how you project your force and resources.

Well I won't making such a generalization that the "Bobie" is a wuss, the British police is highly respected organization and they do have a very big arsenal for quelling down riots and disturbances.

Still making massive, unfounded generalizations, I see. I guess you ain't interested in being intelligent.[/QUOTE]

[Metal_head]

idk maybe if you aren't dumb and commit crimes there would be no problems

Well, if there wasn't crimes there won't be need for governments and stuff.

[Mr. Ron]

And your third point is stupid. You kill your enemy.

Well if you've read Sun Tzu's Art of War he would state the ability to win conflicts by not firing lot a rounds, the best plan is won by less bullets fired. The issue is how you project your force and resources.

Well I won't making such a generalization that the "Bobie" is a wuss, the British police is highly respected organization and they do have a very big arsenal for quelling down riots and disturbances.

Still making massive, unfounded generalizations, I see. I guess you ain't interested in being intelligent.[/quote]
Yeah if someone is trying to kill you, you kill them first. You do not give them any quarter whatsoever.

I own 2 copies Art of war. Yes, it is better to avoid fighting, however in most war when both sides are going at it you're not going to consider using "less than lethal" weaponry when they're actively trying to kill you. That is ridiculous. Its war.



Well, if there wasn't crimes there won't be need for governments and stuff.

lol

There are other reasons why we have government besides combating crime.

[nator]

quelling down riots and disturbances

what are those like raves or something

[Metal_head]

Yeah if someone is trying to kill you, you kill them first. You do not give them any quarter whatsoever.

I own 2 copies Art of war. Yes, it is better to avoid fighting, however in most war when both sides are going at it you're not going to consider using "less than lethal" weaponry when they're actively trying to kill you. That is ridiculous. Its war.[/QUOTE]

Well, i've never stated that the cops shouldn't be carrying lethal weapons like a 9 mm. in case there is a prospect of being killed.

[fafafafa]

you cant really say 'dont commit crime' when the code is so huge that you wouldnt even know if you were committing a crime and most of it is stupid and shouldnt be a crime in the first place

and we dont need government for anything i think you guys have parental issues

[Metal_head]

what are those like raves or something

Like bunch of Arabs protesting with the presence of Bobies and APCs.

[suspect device]

a bunch of arabs


is that an official term?

[deadinholywood]

do you agree with every single law you are sworn to uphold?

No, particularly regarding the personal use of some drugs. I do not understand how some drugs can be deemed to be good and acceptable but others aren't. Where I work at the moment we have huge issues with people getting very drunk and getting into fights. there would be at least 10 life threatening assaults occurring every weekend as a result but is alcohol banned..... no.

[Metal_head]

a bunch of arabs


is that an official term?

I dunno

[Metal_head]

No, particularly regarding the personal use of some drugs. I do not understand how some drugs can be deemed to be good and acceptable but others aren't. Where I work at the moment we have huge issues with people getting very drunk and getting into fights. there would be at least 10 life threatening assaults occurring every weekend as a result but is alcohol banned..... no.

Therefore, in this case there is no need of using firearms. Everytime you introduce a new equipment you need to train with it to know how to use it, this probably need to be the rule when using Tasers or any other equipment.
But when doing raids and other ops cary a vest and a firearm.

[suspect device]

Still making massive, unfounded generalizations, I see. I guess you ain't interested in being intelligent.

well i certainly don't see how they are interested in changing peoples perception. how often do we see them come out and admit they got it wrong and make proper reparations to those who were wrongly accused and convicted. the policy probably comes from the top " we can't admit we are wrong because it would undermine the foundation upon which "protect and serve" is founded.

No, particularly regarding the personal use of some drugs. I do not understand how some drugs can be deemed to be good and acceptable but others aren't. Where I work at the moment we have huge issues with people getting very drunk and getting into fights. there would be at least 10 life threatening assaults occurring every weekend as a result but is alcohol banned..... no.

thats because they have figured out how to tax it, just like cigarettes and gambling. once drugs are similarly managed then we will have legal use all over the place. the anger and hate that comes out in people is always there, even when sober. given enough time sober it would surface in the absence of drugs

[Metal_head]

thats because they have figured out how to tax it, just like cigarettes and gambling. once drugs are similarly managed then we will have legal use all over the place. the anger and hate that comes out in people is always there, even when sober. given enough time sober it would surface in the absence of drugs

Yeah, thats right, at one time they were thiinking about legalizing Marijuana in Canada but they had to scrap the program. Here in Canada we have safe injection sites for heavy heroin addicts. I don't have the statistics, on the succesfullnes of those injection sites.
The reason why people get into fights when drunk is because drugs and alcohol, bring out what you try to hide in yourself.

[deadinholywood]

thats because they have figured out how to tax it, just like cigarettes and gambling. once drugs are similarly managed then we will have legal use all over the place. the anger and hate that comes out in people is always there, even when sober. given enough time sober it would surface in the absence of drugs

Yes but this does not mean that associated crimes and health problems would just go away because drug use was legalised. And I'm not saying that these issues would increase or decrease as a result.

[suspect device]

Yes but this does not mean that associated crimes and health problems would just go away because drug use was legalised. And I'm not saying that these issues would increase or decrease as a result.

yes, but like any trend in society they will be able to better regulate consumption, ensure better quality in the supply chain, better prepare for the consequences and use a portion of the extra taxes to improve counselling services and health services - its win win win


drugs means jobs

[fafafafa]

um

isnt most drug violence done by gangs

if gangs no longer have funding how will they exist

and who cares about the health problems if people want to **** themselves over then thats their business

[deadinholywood]

yes, but like any trend in society they will be able to better regulate consumption, ensure better quality in the supply chain, better prepare for the consequences and use a portion of the extra taxes to improve counselling services and health services - its win win win


drugs means jobs

I do not dispute that this is a decent idea however there are a few issues that would need to be sorted out.
Who would be producing the drugs? If it is the government how do you think the organised crime bodies currently pushing a lot of the product are going to react to it?

I do not care that people take drugs, if that is what they want to do it is none of my business. My issue is that some users of some drug types commit robberies, burglaries, thefts etc etc against decent hardworking people to fuel their habit. Unless the government in your example is planning to give away drugs for a very cheap price these issues are not going to stop.

[fafafafa]

so punish theft and those crimes more harshly im not seeing a problem

ps once drug making is legal its very likely the price will go way down

i mean shitty little farmers in south america can produce coke for pennies and they're using manual labour

[suspect device]

um

isnt most drug violence done by gangs

if gangs no longer have funding how will they exist

and who cares about the health problems if people want to **** themselves over then thats their business

i'm sure there is a fair amount of drug related violence enacted by drug users. and gangs will only disappear if the industry is regulated. and health problems are an issue for society in general. society cares, we may not

I do not dispute that this is a decent idea however there are a few issues that would need to be sorted out.
Who would be producing the drugs? If it is the government how do you think the organised crime bodies currently pushing a lot of the product are going to react to it?


i don't really know how they would deal with the criminals. because they have left it for so long as a black market then introducing regulation would probably have to come with some incentives such that existing businesses could be legitimised. probably need some sort of amnesty too


I do not care that people take drugs, if that is what they want to do it is none of my business. My issue is that some users of some drug types commit robberies, burglaries, thefts etc etc against decent hardworking people to fuel their habit. Unless the government in your example is planning to give away drugs for a very cheap price these issues are not going to stop.

hunger also causes people to steal. having no money, or not enough, causes people to break the law all the time. there will alwsy be people breaking the law to steal in order to feed their alcohol habit. drugs won't be any different

so punish theft and those crimes more harshly im not seeing a problem

ps once drug making is legal its very likely the price will go way down

i mean poopty little farmers in south america can produce coke for pennies and they're using manual labour

i can agree with this

[Metal_head]

um

isnt most drug violence done by gangs

if gangs no longer have funding how will they exist

and who cares about the health problems if people want to **** themselves over then thats their business

Well, the reason why there are gangs is because society lacks something i.e. lack of jobs and law and security or if there is overbundance of thing i.e. guns. In the cae of USA (LA) is because of the lack of jobs and lack of law and security.
I don't think making drugs accesible by legalising would solve the problem, it would lead to the dissapearance of gangs. If you want to do it you're right that is somebody's else's problem.
The solution lies somewhere else, in creating jobs and properly raising your children, better education and better parental care.

[fafafafa]

In the cae of USA (LA) is because of the lack of jobs and lack of law and security.
um

the things gangs do are illegal

the police have plenty of resources

in fact the war on drugs budget is ridiculous

or if there is overbundance of thing i.e. guns.

yeah thats right countries that ban guns have no gangs

oh no wait thats retarded and they do

and some of the countries with the highest gun ownership rates in the world also have the lowest crime

[Metal_head]

um

the things gangs do are illegal

the police have plenty of resources

in fact the war on drugs budget is ridiculous



yeah thats right countries that ban guns have no gangs

oh no wait thats retarded and they do

and some of the countries with the highest gun ownership rates in the world also have the lowest crime

Nobody is stating the opposite fafafafa. Nobody is doing to prevent future gang violence. We always think that the best thing to combat crime is to become more strict, which is wrong because we don't address the main reason why gang violence occurs.
Most of the gang members come from poor neighborhoods, where there is lack of jobs, and security.
We have gangs in Toronto, but most of the guns and drugs come smuggled from the US.The gang members are mostly from Jamaica and other countries, which are extremly poor..
Yeah, there are gangs in Toronto, but the guns are smuggled from the USA. The gun crime has dropped seriously in Canada, except for the gang violence, which has risen because guns are smuggled from the USA, where the law are too lax.

[suspect device]

how do you mean "the law is too lax"?

[fafafafa]

Yeah, there are gangs in Toronto, but the guns are smuggled from the USA. The gun crime has dropped seriously in Canada, except for the gang violence, which has risen because guns are smuggled from the USA, where the law are too lax.
gun laws and violence dont really have a correlation

the uk has gangs and it has some of the strictest (read: most retarded) gun laws in the world. the same goes for japan

switzerland gives everyone a free rifle and there's hardly any crime

so try again

[Metal_head]

how do you mean "the law is too lax"?

Well, I watched a feature about guns in the States. Most of the gun shops in the States don't do background checks on the persons that buy the guns. Most of the guns that are on the streets of Canada come illegaly from the States, i.e. Virginia and Georgia. And most of them have been used in some sort of crime i.e. robery or murder.

[fafafafa]

without guns people just stab each other

guns dont cause crime despite their use in crime

and banning them only prevents law abiding citizens from using them for defense because durr criminals dont care about the law

[Mr. Ron]

Well, I watched a feature about guns in the States. Most of the gun shops in the States don't do background checks on the persons that buy the guns. Most of the guns that are on the streets of Canada come illegaly from the States, i.e. Virginia and Georgia. And most of them have been used in some sort of crime i.e. robery or murder.
Bullshit. Federal law requires shop owners to do background checks on all gun sales.

[Metal_head]

gun laws and violence dont really have a correlation
the uk has gangs and it has some of the strictest (read: most retarded) gun laws in the world. the same goes for japan

switzerland gives everyone a free rifle and there's hardly any crime

so try again
Yes they do, because in America where the cowboy and the cowboy way of life has been sung into immortality and how to achieve success has created the template how to succeed in life. In Europe there are crimes and gangs, but the methods and tools are different than the US.
Also I agree guns aren't always the primary weapon gangs, still it has to deal with the background of the criminal.
For example the cases with Enron and Bernie Madoff, claerly support your claim. In this crime which was commited by businessmen the crime was victimless but still a lot of people suffered. The reason to commit these crime was greed.
Gangs members are primarily people that live on the outskirts of towns or places where there are no jobs or security, or the police doesn't want to patrol those areas. Because of this vacuum gangs setup their operations and start to function as governments.
For example the Mafia started as a revolutionary movement in Sicily against the Spanish rule of the Island. Russian mafia is run by former KGB members and is supplying the people with food and consumer goods and security.

[Metal_head]

Bullpoop. Federal law requires shop owners to do background checks on all gun sales.

Well, It seems like the gun shop owner didn't do those background checks, because nobody is enforcing that law because of pressure from the NRA.

[sLarkin20]

How many firearms have you bought in the U.S.?

I've had to do a background check each and every time, whether it was at a pawn shop or mass retail store. I've also had to wait the mandatory 3 days any time it was a handgun.

"Most of the gun shops in the States don't do background checks on the persons that buy the guns." is bullshit.

[fafafafa]

Yes they do

no they dont because you cant have correlation using just one country thats not how statistics work what

to say that guns cause crime you need to look at the stats for a variety of countries that have different restrictions on gun ownership and if we do that we see that some of the countries with the highest number of guns per capita have the lowest rates of violent crime and the countries with the tightest gun laws still have plenty of violent crime

[Mr. Ron]

Well, It seems like the gun shop owner didn't do those background checks, because nobody is enforcing that law because of pressure from the NRA.
Um what. The ATF and FBI will shut you down if you do not do background checks. They know when you're not doing them. My father used to own a gun shop.

[sLarkin20]

But guys he watched a feature about guns in the United States.

[Metal_head]

Um what. The ATF and FBI will shut you down if you do not do background checks. They know when you're not doing them. My father used to own a gun shop.

Well, in what was shown on our TV screens by Canadian TV Station CBC Fifth Estate was shown that one of the guys that was selling guns, had 422 guns unaccounted for.
But if that isn't the case thats different, he was shut down by the government but he kept selling using his mother as a seller.

[Metal_head]

no they dont because you cant have correlation using just one country thats not how statistics work what

to say that guns cause crime you need to look at the stats for a variety of countries that have different restrictions on gun ownership and if we do that we see that some of the countries with the highest number of guns per capita have the lowest rates of violent crime and the countries with the tightest gun laws still have plenty of violent crime

Yes, because they're smuggled in and thats the main reason, why there is gun violence in countries with strict gun laws. Here in Canada, you're still allowed to own a gun, but you have to register it with the government, which has a national gun registry which is used by the police, when they're searching or apprehanding a suspect.
Couple of years ago, there was a shooting death of four Mounties with an assault rifle, that was the gun registry was on.
The problem was that the Mounties didn't have their bulletproof vest with them.

[fafafafa]

no can you stop making stuff up guns have nothing to do with the rate of violent crimes i've already told you why its not correlated you cant say something is correlated by examining one country when all the other countries in the world contradict what you're saying

you seeing it on tv one time doesnt mean anything

[robertsona]

good thread

[Metal_head]

How many people have been killed in self defence by a gun or knife?
What I'am arguing the reason why there is violence in the States and other Countries is because the society something lacks, or has too many laws. French sociologist Emile Durkheim did a study on suicides amon Frenchmen. The answer is that French society was too strict, it needed to loosen up, because it suffered from anomie.We always seem to forget the root cause of violence, something that we always overlook.
The answer isn't always throwing more money into policing, when the criminal always ends up again in jail. Maybe if we start opening those jobs at home that require a semi skilled labour, and reform education, and start spending more quality family time at home it would pay off. If the community gets involved and offer alternative to crime, then we can see what is the right way into combating crime.

[fafafafa]

a lot of people have been killed in self defense by guns and knives and rightly so whats your point

and you're not arguing anything you're making some retarded bare assertion about guns or the availability of guns causing violent crime but we know that guns dont cause violent crime because theres no correlation there and if violence exists in a country for whatever reasons you are suggesting that doesnt really have anything to do with guns so you never should have brought up guns in the first place at all

[Metal_head]

a lot of people have been killed in self defense by guns and knives and rightly so whats your point

and you're not arguing anything you're making some retarded bare assertion about guns or the availability of guns causing violent crime but we know that guns dont cause violent crime because theres no correlation there and if violence exists in a country for whatever reasons you are suggesting that doesnt really have anything to do with guns so you never should have brought up guns in the first place at all

Well i used guns as an example not as the only means of peroforming violent acts.
The reason why guns are easily obtainable is because there a lots of them and there are people who sell them illegaly like to make a quick profit without paying taxes or setinng up legal operations. It is because you're taught you don't need government, no government regulations etc.
What I'am trying to say you maybe need change in the way of how society works.

[fafafafa]

guns being easily obtainable has nothing to do with violent crime rates

in switzerland the government hands out assault rifles to every household and you couldnt get shot in switzerland if you tried

It is because you're taught you don't need government, no government regulations etc.

i did find this part extra amusing though

[Mr. Ron]

Well i used guns as an example not as the only means of peroforming violent acts.
The reason why guns are easily obtainable is because there a lots of them and there are people who sell them illegaly like to make a quick profit without paying taxes or setinng up legal operations. It is because you're taught you don't need government, no government regulations etc.
What I'am trying to say you maybe need change in the way of how society works.
huh?

[Metal_head]

guns being easily obtainable has nothing to do with violent crime rates

in switzerland the government hands out assault rifles to every household and you couldnt get shot in switzerland if you tried

Yes because it would cost the Swiss too much to have standing army, and that is their way of keeping Switzerland neutral.

i did find this part extra amusing though

What is your social status?

[fafafafa]

so you agree that the availability of guns has absolutely no correlation with violent crime

cool

[Metal_head]

so you agree that the availability of guns has absolutely no correlation with violent crime

cool

Yes and no, this is why.The other side, why there is no gun violence in Switzerland, is because there is law and order provided by the government, and ample jobs.
In the ghettos where crime is rampant there is no law and order. Law and order is provided by the gangs. There are no jobs for the youths and many others, so in order to get income and have some sort of a future for themselves, they turn to gang life. The reason is because we don't want too much government involvment in our lives or to pay high taxes.

[fafafafa]

but thats totally irrelevant to the availability of guns

if people in america are more into gangs they're more in to gangs whether they can go buy a gun or not, if i want to kill you i want to kill you whether i have a gun to do it with or not

the motives and causes for violence have nothing to do with the availability of guns

at all

[Metal_head]

but thats totally irrelevant to the availability of guns

if people in america are more into gangs they're more in to gangs whether they can go buy a gun or not, if i want to kill you i want to kill you whether i have a gun to do it with or not

the motives and causes for violence have nothing to do with the availability of guns

at all

Yes, they do, if you want to prevent future crime.

[fafafafa]

what

are you talking about

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Future crime is the number one violent crime on the rise.

[Metal_head]

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel or the SIG 510 rifle and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place.[2] The ammunition are intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Yeah but how are you going to prevent future crime?

[fafafafa]

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel or the SIG 510 rifle and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place.[2] The ammunition are intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

isnt that what i just said why are you pasting it from wiki to confirm what im saying

[Metal_head]

Yeah but how are you going to prevent future crime?

If you do crime statistics and do a case study of why certain crime is on the rise you try to figure a way how to prevent future episodes. In some cases ENGAGE THE YOUTH, INTO SPORTS, RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES, AFTER SCHOOL ACTIVITIES, SPEND MORE TIME WITH CHILDREN.
Its not fullproof, but reduces the possibility of high crime rates, and also FUTURE CRIMES.

[Metal_head]

[edit] Gun crime
Further information: Gun violence and Crime in Switzerland
Police statistics for the year 2006[13] records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. Some 300 deaths per year are due to legally held army ordinance weapons, the large majority of these being suicides. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence are perpetrated with army ordnance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.[14]

[Metal_head]

[edit] Buying guns

[edit] Conditions under the 1999 Gun Act
To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.
To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed, but the seller is expected to establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill the above-mentioned conditions (usually done through a Criminal Records Bureau check). The participants in such a transaction are required to prepare a written contract detailing the identities of both vendor and purchaser, the weapon's type, manufacturer, and serial number. The law requires the written contract to be kept for ten years by the buyer and seller. The seller is also required to see some official ID from the purchaser, for such sales are only allowed to Swiss nationals and foreigners with a valid residence permit, with the exception of those foreigners that come from certain countries (Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Albania, Algeria), to whom such sales are not allowed even if they do have a residence permit. Foreigners without a residence permit or from countries on the ban list must ask for a special permit.
After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms"). Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters, and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.
Basically, the sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessoires such as sound suppressors ("silencers") is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker.
Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

[Metal_head]

[edit] Changes due to the Schengen treaty
The rules laid out above were changed on 1 December 2008 as Switzerland joined the Schengen treaty; and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:

Unlawful possession of guns will be punished.
Gun trade among individuals will require a valid weapon acquisition permit: this is, from a Swiss point of view, a radical restriction that is assumed will undercut private gun trade dramatically.
Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.
Airsoft guns and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law.
Only one weapon may be purchased per weapon acquisition permit: Presumably, this will dry out the market for relatively cheap used guns, including popular collector's items such as Swiss army revolvers from the late 19th/early 20th century.
Weapons acquired from an individual in the last ten years (which did not require a weapon acquisition permit) have to be registered. As a central weapons register was politically unfeasible, the authorities hope to get an overview of the market through this registration requirement.
While the above mentioned "free arms" remain exempt from the weapon acquisition permit, the vendor is required to notify the local arms bureau of the sale.

[edit] Buying ammunition

Ready ammunition of the Swiss Army. Every soldier equipped with the Sig 550 assault rifle used to be issued 90 rounds of ammunition in a sealed box, to be opened only upon alert. The ammunition was to load into the rifle magazine for use by the militiaman should any needs arise while he was en route to join his unit. Any other use than this, or even unsealing was strictly forbidden. This practice was stopped in 2007 due to safety concerns.The government subsidizes the production of military ammunition and then sells the ammunition at cost. Swiss military ammo must be registered if bought at a private store, but need not be registered if bought at a range. Registration consists of entering your name in a log at the time of sale. No serial numbers are present on the individual cartridges of ammunition. Technically, ammunition bought at the range must be used at the range, but according to David Kopel "the rule is barely known and almost never obeyed."[2] Ammunition for long gun hunting is not subsidized by the government and is not subject to any sales control. Non-military non-hunting ammunition more powerful than .22 LR (such as custom handgun ammunition) is registered at the time of sale.[10]

[fafafafa]

dude im not reading this i dont know why you've gone crazy and are pasting it

Yeah but how are you going to prevent future crime?


havent you seen that tom cruise movie

[Mr. Ron]

Yes and no, this is why.The other side, why there is no gun violence in Switzerland, is because there is law and order provided by the government, and ample jobs.
In the ghettos where crime is rampant there is no law and order. Law and order is provided by the gangs. There are no jobs for the youths and many others, so in order to get income and have some sort of a future for themselves, they turn to gang life. The reason is because we don't want too much government involvment in our lives or to pay high taxes.
I think you have a totally warped view of "law and order" when it comes to lower income areas. You don't even live in the ghetto.

Plus this has nothing to do with guns.

[Metal_head]

Homicide rates among 18- to 24-year-olds have declined since 1993, but remain higher than they were prior to the 1980s.[16] In 2005, the 17 through 24 age group remains significantly overrepresented in violent crime statistics, particularly homicides involving firearms.[29] In 2005, 17- through 19-year olds were 4.3% of the overall population of the United States.[30] This same age group accounted for 11.2% of those killed by firearm homicides.[31] This age group also accounted for 10.6% of all homicide offenses.[32] The 20- through 24-year-old age group accounted for 7.1% of the population,[30] while accounting for 22.5% of those killed by firearm homicides.[31] The 20 through 24 age group also accounted for 17.7% of all homicide offenses.[32] Those under age 17 are not overrepresented in homicide statistics. In 2005, 13- through 16-year-olds accounted for 6% of the overall population of the United States, but only accounted for 3.6% of firearm homicide victims,[31] and 2.7% of overall homicide offenses.[32]

People with a criminal record are also more likely to die as homicide victims.[10] Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record.[33] In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996.[10][34] In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.[35]

In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified.[36] Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a gun.[37] The mortality rate for gunshot wounds to the heart is 84%, compared to 30% for people who sustain stab wounds to the heart.[38]

[Mr. Ron]

stop copy and pasting stuff no one cares, use your own arguments.

[Shadows Within]

I just like the fact that me makes the claim that most cops are corrupt and then he base's his "experience" from his own town and nothing else :lol:

i've never had a reason to distrust cops and they've always been cool to me, at least up here.

[Metal_head]

[QUOTE=Mr. Ron;17505608]I think you have a totally warped view of "law and order" when it comes to lower income areas. You don't even live in the ghetto.

Plus this has nothing to do with guns.[/QUOTE

If lower income doesn't play a role in crime in the world, then I'am wrong.
I'm not saying that we should kill all the poor.
The problem what I'am saying you won't solve anything by putting more boots on the ground, the police and the city needs to reach out like in New York City.

[Metal_head]

stop copy and pasting stuff no one cares, use your own arguments.

Then we have problem.
Do you read the newspapers, or read any books?

[Mr. Ron]

Then we have problem.
Do you read the newspapers, or read any books?
yeah we do have a problem when all you do is just copy and paste


[quote=Mr. Ron;17505608]I think you have a totally warped view of "law and order" when it comes to lower income areas. You don't even live in the ghetto.

Plus this has nothing to do with guns.[/QUOTE

If lower income doesn't play a role in crime in the world, then I'am wrong.
I'm not saying that we should kill all the poor.
The problem what I'am saying you won't solve anything by putting more boots on the ground, the police and the city needs to reach out like in New York City.
Actually more police probably would help with a lot of things.

how do you suggest they reach out

[fafafafa]

poor people commit crimes

therefore the solution is to ban guns

which will stop poor people committing crimes

apparently

or something

[sLarkin20]

Maybe we should try banning poor people instead.

[TerranYouApart]

poor people commit crimes

therefore the solution is to ban guns

which will stop poor people committing crimes

apparently

or something

quit acting like guns make it just as hard to kill someone as a knife or fists. a gun makes it too easy, point and click. no matter who the other person is, no matter what they did, all you do is point and click. that is the issue, not that crime exists.

[fafafafa]

well, im going to commit what is ostensibly the most serious crime under the law

a crime which i could be executed for

but of course im going to be thinking about all the less serious laws i'd be breaking by carrying a gun

i wont kill him in his house either - that'd be trespassing

i mean what do you think i am, a criminal?

[TerranYouApart]

let me put it this way.

a 2 year old can't kill you with a knife or their hands. a 2 year old can kill you with a gun.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

guns are dangerous cant deny that

[fafafafa]

as we know 2 year olds kill many people

with guns

and high explosives

[fafafafa]

and cars too lets ban cars im sure they can work the pedals with their hands

[TerranYouApart]

the point was guns make it too easy to kill someone in a fit of rage when maybe all you would have done was kick their ***.

who said anything about banning guns? lol damn man you get carried away

[fafafafa]

if you get mad enough to shoot people in your day to day life i dont think you need to be in society

actually if you get mad enough to fight people too thats pretty dumb

at least if everyone has guns they can defend themselves against the tiny number of crazy people that are actually like that

[TerranYouApart]

:rolleyes:

i would kill lots of people if i could, trust me.

guns aren't really defense against guns. i mean i don't know if you know how it works but 1 person shoots first and normally the aggressor has the gun drawn first. not much room for defense against guns.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

if you get mad enough to shoot people in your day to day life i dont think you need to be in society

actually if you get mad enough to fight people too thats pretty dumb

at least if everyone has guns they can defend themselves against the tiny number of crazy people that are actually like that
who do you think would have a better control of the weapon and who is it that would be prepared for the situation in this gunful world, the crazies or the 99% who would never imagine these things happening to them?

[fafafafa]

its not supposed to be a perfect defense against a gun its supposed to make a confrontation equal which otherwise (without guns) would be based on physical superiority alone

and that people should train themselves in appropriate use of their weapon is a given but generally criminals dont do that and if some dude goes into a mcdonalds and starts shooting people and theres just one dude there who knows how to shoot and is concealed carrying he can end it and save lives despite the other people there not knowing **** about how to defend themselves

[Metal_head]

I just like the fact that me makes the claim that most cops are corrupt and then he base's his "experience" from his own town and nothing else :lol:

i've never had a reason to distrust cops and they've always been cool to me, at least up here.

The reason why there is corrupt cops is the fact that they (cops) are paid low, and that is the problem of having too many cops and a small police budget.

[Metal_head]

its not supposed to be a perfect defense against a gun its supposed to make a confrontation equal which otherwise (without guns) would be based on physical superiority alone

and that people should train themselves in appropriate use of their weapon is a given but generally criminals dont do that and if some dude goes into a mcdonalds and starts shooting people and theres just one dude there who knows how to shoot and is concealed carrying he can end it and save lives despite the other people there not knowing **** about how to defend themselves

And that is why he won't decide to shoot at cops?

[Mr. Ron]

let me put it this way.

a 2 year old can't kill you with a knife or their hands. a 2 year old can kill you with a gun.
this is so stupid


:rolleyes:

i would kill lots of people if i could, trust me.

guns aren't really defense against guns. i mean i don't know if you know how it works but 1 person shoots first and normally the aggressor has the gun drawn first. not much room for defense against guns.
lol what are you some sort of sociopath



Oh and you assume the aggressor will always kill you first or hit you. Ever hear of a firefight? You know, when two people shoot at each other for a length of time?

[TerranYouApart]

mr. ron you took it out of context. i was arguing that guns make it too easy to kill someone. to naturally kill someone it normally takes a lot of force. with a gun it takes the contraction of 1 or 2 fingers. i was merely stupifying my argument to chad's level of argumentative stupidity so he could catch my point.

[Mr. Ron]

mr. ron you took it out of context. i was arguing that guns make it too easy to kill someone. to naturally kill someone it normally takes a lot of force. with a gun it takes the contraction of 1 or 2 fingers. i was merely stupifying my argument to chad's level of argumentative stupidity so he could catch my point.
Who cares. Really. This is such a dumb argument. Your problem isn't with guns but with how much work a person has to go through to kill someone lol.


Oh and shooting someone is a normal way of killing someone. Plus it actually doesn't take a lot of force to break someone's neck or smash their skull in.

[Metal_head]

mr. ron you took it out of context. i was arguing that guns make it too easy to kill someone. to naturally kill someone it normally takes a lot of force. with a gun it takes the contraction of 1 or 2 fingers. i was merely stupifying my argument to chad's level of argumentative stupidity so he could catch my point.

I agree it is too easy to kill with a gun than with a knife. For a knife you have to be physically fit and also good with hand to hand combat.

[Mr. Ron]

I agree it is too easy to kill with a gun than with a knife. For a knife you have to be physically fit and also good with hand to hand combat.
lol what no you don't.

[sweboy]

Who cares. Really. This is such a dumb argument. Your problem isn't with guns but with how much work a person has to go through to kill someone lol.


Oh and shooting someone is a normal way of killing someone. Plus it actually doesn't take a lot of force to break someone's neck or smash their skull in.

The more work you have to through to kill someone, the lower the number of people who are going to be able to and/or motivated to go through with killing someone.

[Anglachel]

I agree it is too easy to kill with a gun than with a knife. For a knife you have to be physically fit and also good with hand to hand combat.
have you ever even held a firearm srs

[Mr. Ron]

The more work you have to through to kill someone, the lower the number of people who are going to be able to and/or motivated to go through with killing someone.
This is highly situational.

[Metal_head]

lol what no you don't.

well a gun can go off even without firing, and don't point guns at other people, even when is empty.

[Metal_head]

have you ever even held a firearm srs

Yeah an Air Rifle.

[Mr. Ron]

well a gun can go off even without firing, and don't point guns at other people, even when is empty.
yeah maybe a weapon made in the early 1900's or something. I've been around guns since I was little, modern weapons do not do this.

[sweboy]

This is highly situational.

Yes, but given many situations you can make statistical generalizations.

[fafafafa]

The more work you have to through to kill someone, the lower the number of people who are going to be able to and/or motivated to go through with killing someone.
thats why most crime is directed towards the weaker members of society (women, old people, etc)

the point of a gun is that it gives someone who has inferior physical ability equal power to stop their assailant, and it makes them harder to kill and it ups the risk of the criminal being killed and thats the disincentive to commit crime

[TerranYouApart]

just think of gang fights, except with knives. is that a video game yet?

[Angmar]

You can't really blame all of the US's murder problems on guns alone, the fault lies with the people who commit the crimes, just imagine if guns became illegal, it would be like prohibition all over again, which definitely did not work.

[Metal_head]

You can't really blame all of the US's murder problems on guns alone, the fault lies with the people who commit the crimes, just imagine if guns became illegal, it would be like prohibition all over again, which definitely did not work.

I'am not exonarating everybody. Where is the responsibility of the person that sells the gun illegally or legally? Gun ownership in Canada isn't banned but is regulated, the only gun violence is gang related. The crime rate in T.O. where most gangs are has dropped 30%.
The issue and my argument lies why there is criminal gangs. That is because of lack of jobs and government which would provide security and certain rules where business can flourish and we can live peacefully.
For example the Hispanics are living in a barrios which are exclusivlly Hispanic-only they are closing themselves. They come from countries which are unstable don't have law and order and governments don't provide the basic services to them i.e. health care education, jobs and law and security.
Bernie Maddoff and other white-collar criminals although their crimes are insignificant have been sent to jail. The system works.

[fafafafa]

Where is the responsibility of the person that sells the gun illegally or legally?

he shouldnt have one

just like the car dealer shouldnt get in trouble if you're an idiot and decide to drive drunk and kill someone

[Metal_head]

he shouldnt have one

just like the car dealer shouldnt get in trouble if you're an idiot and decide to drive drunk and kill someone

So you're willing selling Iran a nuclear weapon? You're missing my point, there should be some responsibility and accountabillity and punishment. Selling guns illegally or under the table should be persecuted and punished severely.
Or whom are you going to sue if a car that you drive gets involved in an accident and in the process the driver gets killed. Who should be liable: You, The person that sells you the car or the person that manufactured the car?

[fafafafa]

yeah i'd sell iran a nuclear weapon, why not


Selling guns illegally or under the table should be persecuted and punished severely

no it shouldnt be regulated at all and there should be no responsibility apart from for the person who commits the crime

well maybe they should only be sold to people who can achieve psychological adulthood because of the rights they get at that point but other than that no why should the seller of an item be responsible for what you do with it thats just dumb


Who should be liable: You, The person that sells you the car or the person that manufactured the car?

who should be liable:

the gun shop owner who sold to the end user

the gun company distributor for selling to an irresponsible gun shop owner

the gun company for not vetting its distributors

the steel company for selling to an irresponsible gun company

the miners for working for an irresponsible steel company

the person who actually had the mens rea to commit the crime and carried it out

[Angmar]

the miners I'd say

[sweboy]

thats why most crime is directed towards the weaker members of society (women, old people, etc)

the point of a gun is that it gives someone who has inferior physical ability equal power to stop their assailant, and it makes them harder to kill and it ups the risk of the criminal being killed and thats the disincentive to commit crime

Is it really the case that most crime is directed towards old women? These stats I found say that young males are heavily overrepresented as homicide victims:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_02.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_02.html

[fafafafa]

thats homicide only, which includes inter-gang violence where its mostly young dudes that are involved and its a two party fault thing instead of criminals targeting the innocent

you've got mugging and rape and home invasion and all that

[Metal_head]

yeah i'd sell iran a nuclear weapon, why not




no it shouldnt be regulated at all and there should be no responsibility apart from for the person who commits the crime

well maybe they should only be sold to people who can achieve psychological adulthood because of the rights they get at that point but other than that no why should the seller of an item be responsible for what you do with it thats just dumb




who should be liable:

the gun shop owner who sold to the end user

the gun company distributor for selling to an irresponsible gun shop owner

the gun company for not vetting its distributors

the steel company for selling to an irresponsible gun company

the miners for working for an irresponsible steel company

the person who actually had the mens rea to commit the crime and carried it out

Well if the word goes out that GM is making bad cars there is always some sort of a recall or a remedy, even though GM cars are sold by a middlemen it would be GM's fault at the end, for upholding to a manufacturing car standards.

[fafafafa]

because it was gm that did it

durr

gm wouldnt get into trouble if in the next step the car dealer broke it would they

no because the car dealer is responsible for his own actions

just like a murderer is

[Metal_head]

Yes but GM would be punished both by the government and the consumers because of selling unsafe products. And that can lead into ruin or in some cases bankruptcy, while the middle men the car dealer will survive because he will change shirts.
That is why regulation can save the gun industry rather than destroy it.

[fafafafa]

gm would be punished

because its gm's fault

if it was not gm's fault then gm would not be punished

you're not a very smart guy

[Metal_head]

gm would be punished

because its gm's fault

if it was not gm's fault then gm would not be punished

you're not a very smart guy

But then bad reputation would follow GM, and it would take a lot to repudiate your bad reputation. Regardless of what somebody should face individual responsibility something that is instilled in you from your parents, teachers and society.
Society without noone to be held accountable is called anarchism.

[fafafafa]

dude

you're like

not even reading the posts

and you dont know what anarchism is either

so im going to stop replying

[Metal_head]

Anarchism is a state of no government, achieving it by breaking the bonds of family and stressing on individualism over the state.
While fascism is concetration of power and the state into being and corporatism i.e. incorporation of Church, State and Business into a single representative institution.
While liberalism is a system of individualism and the family as the basis of society, the rule of law and the town dwellers and the middle class joined together against the central authority the state, or the monarch.

[fafafafa]

this is why pnwi is terrible

really

[Metal_head]

First thing there is no fool proof system.The reason why the gun industry should be regulated because there would some sort of industry standards is because you'll be able to protect the gun manufacturer from lawsuits and also protect the life of a police officer by doing oversight over the gun seller.

[suspect device]

**** da pigs

you can come up with a better reason than that if you try

[James Tiberius Kirk]

Off-topic at this point but...

Anyone who trusts cops blindly is a moron. Just because they have a badge and a gun doesn't make them better citizens, it just means that idiots who become cops are more dangerous than anyone else. Sadly, many, many cops are morons.

On that note, if you get into a confrontation with a police officer, be they a good cop or a douche, if you act aggressively because you think all cops are dicks, you're going to come off as dangerous and you deserve to be electrocuted.

[fafafafafa]

this video is old but still has good advice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

[James Tiberius Kirk]

That's actually a really good link.

[Raayl]

this video is old but still has good advice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

great link, favorited it + linked it to some of my classmates

[Metal_head]

Off-topic at this point but...

Anyone who trusts cops blindly is a moron. Just because they have a badge and a gun doesn't make them better citizens, it just means that idiots who become cops are more dangerous than anyone else. Sadly, many, many cops are morons.

Well then we don't laws or courts, we need to empower every individual with a rifle.


On that note, if you get into a confrontation with a police officer, be they a good cop or a douche, if you act aggressively because you think all cops are dicks, you're going to come off as dangerous and you deserve to be electrocuted.

Not in all cases you can file a complaint.