Henry Gates [Archive] - Music & Musician Forums

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 03:40 PM

idk they might have been doing their job when they went there but why was he charged with disorder for insulting the cops (on his own property no less) thats just dumb

I disagree.

The cops had to investigate the suspected break in. How could they know that Gates lived there unless he proved it? He refused to prove it.

What would you have done if you were the cop? Gates did one thing and said another through his attorney. Cops did what they said they did.

So discounting the ignorance of your comment, who do you believe? The cop or Gates? That's what it boils down to.

Other cops were there. The only one supporting Gates' story is his lawyer. And now, the ****ing President. That's disgusting. What's worse is him being able to ramble on about racism in this country. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Light Flantastic

07-23-2009, 03:48 PM

thats not what he was arrested for

he was arrested for being disorderly

which is stupid considering it was in his house

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 03:59 PM

thats not what he was arrested for

he was arrested for being disorderly

which is stupid considering it was in his house

If that's how you choose to discuss this then don't waste my time.

He was arrested because he refused to identify himself. Maybe you should check out the state's laws before assuming you know it all.

If it was his house, all he had to do was prove it. Cops don't read minds.

Jude

07-23-2009, 03:59 PM

How is it disgusting for Obama to talk about racism

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 04:04 PM

How is it disgusting for Obama to talk about racism

Because in this instance, using this incident as a catapult, he was wrong, and made some absurd comments about an incident his buddy incited.

Light Flantastic

07-23-2009, 04:06 PM

He was arrested because he refused to identify himself. Maybe you should check out the state's laws before assuming you know it all.
did you even read the article

he was arrested for disorderly

they determined his identity before they arrested him

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 04:11 PM

did you even read the article

he was arrested for disorderly

they determined his identity before they arrested him

In that blog? Yeah thats what they said in the blog, but the cops have a different take.

The charges were dropped anyway to placate the liberal black loving guilt ridden scum who seem to be in charge right now, so it's pointless to discuss the arrest considering there's no arrest to speak of.

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 04:15 PM

Anyways Chad, you have no vested interest to care about this. You're just in it for the argument.

gregulus

07-23-2009, 04:32 PM

Do you have a real reason to care about this, or are you just in it for the argument as well?

In regards to the identification issue, gates supposedly did produce identification. The police report even indicates that whatever he did, it was convincing,

"While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence,” Sergeant Crowley wrote in the report, “I was quite surprised and confused with the behavior he exhibited toward me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/21gates.html

He was arrested for disorderly conduct, by the way.

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 04:34 PM

Yes I had been saying the same thing greg.

I had even asked Chad to look into the law as it's enforced in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

It would help him understand the cops didn't arrest him for insulting them. Though most cops have a charge for that too, since it does happen to be legal to verbally berate a law enforcement officer in certain cases.

I suppose I could have been wrong about if they arrested him before or after Gates identified himself, but once you start talking crap about a cop's mother, I think the jig is up.

gregulus

07-23-2009, 04:36 PM

Morbus

07-23-2009, 04:55 PM

didn't he have an id

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 05:20 PM

Chad said he was arrested for disorderly conduct, though. Chad was right. You said he was arrested for refusing to produce identification.

Well, my fault for not stating the charge. See, I assumed (like a moron) they charged him with disorderly for failing to produce his ID since there is no real charge for failing to produce identification. The dude wasn't driving so there's no way to charge him for that. I also knew he was more likely charged with disorderly because of how he reacted to the cops who were only trying to do their jobs. I should have stated I knew the charge, but instead argued why they charged it.

Either way, the charges were dropped. That's not the end of the discussion though. More black opportunistic grandstanding. Equal rights, not special rights. If it was me, I would have been put through the same exact routine.

DBoons Ghost

07-23-2009, 05:21 PM

didn't he have an id

He did but at first he preferred not to produce it.

Why should he? I mean, he's the President's close personal friend.

gregulus

07-23-2009, 05:24 PM

He did but at first he preferred not to produce it.

Why should he? I mean, he's the President's close personal friend.

That's not what he says. Nor does the police report state this. Regardless, the police officer was convinced by something that the house was Graves'.

Catfish BROnes

07-23-2009, 05:33 PM

/cue Al Sharpton crashing through the roof

lukeskywalkertakingadump3

07-23-2009, 05:55 PM

From what I've read this is just stupid. If the guy identified himself as the homeowner and got arrested that's just ridiculous. If he refused to show identification and acted hostile i can see why the cops would arrest him.

YDtoad

07-23-2009, 07:36 PM

How is it disgusting for Obama to talk about racism

I don't see how anyone can reasonably conclude that racism was involved here. For one, have you seen the picture--one of the arresting officers is black. They arrested him because he was being extremely aggressive and uncooperative, and tbh it doesn't matter what color he was. If I did that to a cop, there's a good chance I'd get arrested.

And this is the central problem in Gates, Obama etc. line. It's at most like a much less severe version of that video from a few months back, where the officer threatens to mess with someone's life over them parking in a deserted parking lot at night.

As for the person who called the police, I think her action was entirely reasonable. If you see someone forcibly gaining access to a house, it's logical to suspect that there might be a crime being committed.

gregulus

07-23-2009, 08:30 PM

I want to know how she didn't know that Gates was her neighbor. Even if you don't ever talk to your neighbors, it seems likely that you would at least know who they are or what they look like.

YDtoad

07-23-2009, 08:47 PM

I want to know how she didn't know that Gates was her neighbor. Even if you don't ever talk to your neighbors, it seems likely that you would at least know who they are or what they look like.

I don't know what some of my neighbors look like. I think it's fairly common.

Light Flantastic

07-23-2009, 08:51 PM

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/conservative_activist_forwards_racist_pic_showing. php

i think this is a funnier/more ridiculous cry of racism

Light Flantastic

07-23-2009, 08:54 PM

oh its not working

http://bit.ly/txDxo

there we go

YDtoad

07-23-2009, 08:58 PM

Angmar

07-23-2009, 09:42 PM

Don't forget the idiotist remarks about Palin!

Smokey D

07-23-2009, 11:57 PM

Well, it was a terrible idea for Obama to comment at all.

Pretty much everyone here is at fault, except maybe the neighbour although it's pretty laughable that he thought at 67 year old man dressed like a don was breaking into a house.

When the cops turned up, it should have been a simple matter of establishing that Gates was in fact the true owner and was not breaking in. I don't know what they did, but it's possible they didn't believe him or allow him to prove his ownership clearly, in which case he might have been entitled to get angry. If not, then yelling at them and calling them racist was stupid.

The most serious thing is not the racism accusations it's that the president would deign to comment on an individual, albeit high profile, non-incident.

cobert

07-24-2009, 12:54 AM

Neighbors calling cops because a

67 year old man dressed like a don

was pushing a door probably wouldn't have happened if he was white, cops aren't really doing anything racist (although the fact that he was arrested is absolute bullshit, just doesn't seem like racially charged bullshit), dude has every right to be extremely pissed that he was accused of unlawfully entering a house that he owns.

Rightfully pissed professor, cops are dickheads, neighbors are racist.

Rams

07-24-2009, 01:15 AM

lol
oh no

A better artistic rendering than the watermelon one.

For argument's sake: is it really worse to have a racist depiction of Obama than an ageist depiction of McCain? Obama staffers were constantly making ageist remarks behind the scenes about McCain.

Besides the health problems and mental degradation I can't think of anything that differentiates being black and being old.

Police ****ed up for arresting Gates. Obama messed up by commenting on it.

YDtoad

07-24-2009, 07:39 AM

The most serious thing is not the racism accusations it's that the president would deign to comment on an individual, albeit high profile, non-incident.

I think you're right here and this is what a few law blogs emphasized.

was pushing a door probably wouldn't have happened if he was white

That sounded like you were saying that he wouldn't have had to break into his own house if he wasn't black, which I'm sure wasn't what you were trying to say :p

Black or white, imo, had little to do with it. If I'm riding through a neighborhood and I see a pair of guys using a crowbar to gain access to a house, I'm going to think there's a breakin happening (especially if the neighborhood has had a recent problem with breakins, which that neighborhood had). It doesn't matter if it's a 60 year old or a 26 year old--if two guys are gaining forceful entry, the most logical thing is to think "uh oh, crime going down."

I remember back in high school when I was locked out of my house and my friend and I got in through a window. We were really concerned that the police might be called, because that would be an entirely logical response. As it so happens, my neighbors really don't care--that's not preferable, because indifferent neighbors opens up the opportunity for another Kitty Genovese.

DBoons Ghost

07-24-2009, 08:08 AM

I have to say after more fact finding I have come to this conclusion:

Gates reacted poorly to the police officer. If the cop was black or asian, would this have even happened?

The policeman reacted poorly to his ego bruise. If the cop were black or asian, it's likely there would never have been an arrest.

I think the cop was wrong for arresting Gates. I might have said something to the contrary yesterday. The cop could have walked away once he found out who the man was, regardless of the racist taunts Gates made to the cop.

Gates should be scolded for his racist stance for immediately defaulting to the "can't a black man live?" routine.

A lot of stupidity to go around for everyone. Though I learned that it's not illegal to yell at a cop, and it wouldn't otherwise warrant an arrest unless the cop is an egomaniac.

Morbus

07-24-2009, 08:50 AM

A lot of stupidity to go around for everyone. Though I learned that it's not illegal to yell at a cop, and it wouldn't otherwise warrant an arrest unless the cop is an egomaniac.

Well this is a big "unless"

DBoons Ghost

07-24-2009, 09:18 AM

Well this is a big "unless"

I agree.

It's one that has plagued cops forever. The whole "respect my authority" thing really diminishes their reputation. That, and the fact that they will lie on their police reports to have it swing their way. Judges are getting keen to it.

Probably why they dropped the charges so quickly, but part of that I'm sure had to do with PR for the President's buddy.

siva_chair

07-24-2009, 09:20 AM

I agree.

It's one that has plagued cops forever. The whole "respect my authority" thing really diminishes their reputation. That, and the fact that they will lie on their police reports to have it swing their way. Judges are getting keen to it.

Probably why they dropped the charges so quickly, but part of that I'm sure had to do with PR for the President's buddy.

Well yeah enforcement power like that tends to attract egomaniacs and psychopaths. Same with politicians.

Light Flantastic

07-24-2009, 09:26 AM

wasnt there a study that discussed the idea that megalomaniacs (or similar) are more likely to choose a career in politics or the police force or whatever and hence why both sectors are full of dickery

i forget where it was from

but thats why you should say literally nothing in any interaction with the police, innocent or otherwise

siva_chair

07-24-2009, 09:29 AM

YDtoad

07-24-2009, 09:32 AM

DBoons Ghost

07-24-2009, 09:48 AM

I think that the cop would've been better advised to just let it go, but at the same time, I do think it's within the scope of his authority to arrest someone for belligerent, verbally abusive, and uncooperative behavior.

I agree with the last line, when there is legal merit for it, but in the state of Massachusetts, the cop would lose in court, and be subject to scrutiny from his peers and potential charges from the Judge. It all depends on what charge is applied and in what manner. Here in NY, you can be arrested for abusing a cop. There is zero tolerance. In other states, it's different.

Unless the cop lies on the police report and has enough to make it stick, and the person in question has no recourse or witnesses. Cops who lie for the sake of their ego and reputation have already done enough damage to the justice system and it's credibility. In the past, most Republican Judges side with the cop come hell or high water, and people are wrongfully prosecuted enough as it is. Liberal Judges have at least, had enough of that nonsense.

maxwell_1888

07-26-2009, 06:02 PM

Gates should be scolded for his racist stance for immediately defaulting to the "can't a black man live?" routine.

Yeah...what a racist thing to say!! :confused:

I'm sorry but you've thrown the word racist at Henry Gates a couple of times and I don't really see why. Infact, the word I would use to describe Henry Gates in the incident is exactly what I would use to describe your behaviour in this thread. Overreaction.

"Can't a black man live?" is so far from racism it's not even funny.

I don't know if you're like this all the time but you seem to be needlessly emotional and full of hate in here.

Mr. Ron

07-26-2009, 06:29 PM

if anything he deserves to get pepper sprayed for even saying "do you know who I am?"

Dave de Sylvia

07-26-2009, 08:57 PM

I'm sorry but you've thrown the word racist at Henry Gates a couple of times and I don't really see why. Infact, the word I would use to describe Henry Gates in the incident is exactly what I would use to describe your behaviour in this thread. Overreaction.
One of the functions of racism is to assume racist behaviour in those around you. While I'm sure Gates probably has a history with racial prejudice (judging by his reaction), he also seems to have some sort of race-based paranoia ingrained in him.

Obama's opinion on the matter was dead on. It's neither his nor Gates's fault that the cop is a fascist.

Mr. Ron

07-26-2009, 09:17 PM

it wasn't an opinion it was a knee jerk reaction to which he did not even have the details of

plus stop throwing the word "fascist" around

cobert

07-26-2009, 10:58 PM

That sounded like you were saying that he wouldn't have had to break into his own house if he wasn't black, which I'm sure wasn't what you were trying to say :p

Yeah that looks confusing, but it was like *part 1 of sentence* then *quote from smokey who described gates' appearance well* and then *part 2 of sentence* but it looks like part 2 might be the start of a new sentence and it sounds awkward.

To be more relevant to the topic - Obama saying the cop acted "stupidly" might be true, but the president should be far more tactful than that.

Dave de Sylvia

07-26-2009, 11:41 PM

it wasn't an opinion it was a knee jerk reaction to which he did not even have the details of

plus stop throwing the word "fascist" around
It's the first time I've done it. In order for me to stop, a trend must already have developed.

It would have been more correct to ask me not to start throwing the word "fascist" around.

Mr. Ron

07-26-2009, 11:44 PM

It's the first time I've done it. In order for me to stop, a trend must already have developed.

It would have been more correct to ask me not to start throwing the word "fascist" around.
lol you're seriously going to do this

Dave de Sylvia

07-26-2009, 11:45 PM

I already did!

siva_chair

07-26-2009, 11:46 PM

fascists ITT

Mr. Ron

07-26-2009, 11:47 PM

I already did!

Were you just really bored when you made that post that is the only rational explanation I can think of

Dave de Sylvia

07-26-2009, 11:51 PM

The original post? Fascist was probably a silly word to use.

die of starvation

07-27-2009, 12:42 AM

the cop was stupid

most cops are stupid
obama could pick out any random cop and call them stupid and odds are he would be right

same for racist most cops are racist so is this one

DBoons Ghost

07-27-2009, 11:08 AM

Yeah...what a racist thing to say!! :confused:

I'm sorry but you've thrown the word racist at Henry Gates a couple of times and I don't really see why. Infact, the word I would use to describe Henry Gates in the incident is exactly what I would use to describe your behaviour in this thread. Overreaction.

"Can't a black man live?" is so far from racism it's not even funny.

I don't know if you're like this all the time but you seem to be needlessly emotional and full of hate in here.

I am very sure if the cop was black, this wouldn't be a story.

It's unheard of for black people to be racist. Is it?

You and a lot of other people in this thread are clueless.

DBoons Ghost

07-27-2009, 11:11 AM

One of the functions of racism is to assume racist behaviour in those around you. While I'm sure Gates probably has a history with racial prejudice (judging by his reaction), he also seems to have some sort of race-based paranoia ingrained in him.

Obama's opinion on the matter was dead on. It's neither his nor Gates's fault that the cop is a fascist.

I like this post.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:16 AM

I guess they're going to release the 9/11 call and the audio from the police themselves that were at the scene.

gregulus

07-27-2009, 11:20 AM

I guess they're going to release the 9/11 call and the audio from the police themselves that were at the scene.

9/11 really was an inside job, huh?

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 11:25 AM

I don't understand what there is to discuss about this. If the guy was being hostile I see why the police arrested him. If he wasn't and he showed ID then, the cops are just stupid like usual. I would have liked the story better if the black dude shot both the police officers.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:26 AM

Silly, silly gregulus. The reptillians did 9/11, not the U.S. Government.

P.S. I think all of the police bashing in this thread is pretty childish.

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 11:30 AM

I think being a drunkard and looking down on drug users is hypocritical and childish.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:39 AM

lol what I hardly drink

gregulus

07-27-2009, 11:41 AM

Silly, silly gregulus. The reptillians did 9/11, not the U.S. Government.
Mr. Ron, you're the one who just said that they are going to release phone calls related to the police force and 9/11. Are you implying that the police are reptillians? I smell a scandal coming.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:42 AM

Of course I am.

gregulus

07-27-2009, 11:48 AM

Holy ****. I'm voting for Ron Paul.

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 11:49 AM

the police generally suck i think you should all bash away

Every experience I have had with a police officer has been horrible. Take these pigs to the slaughter house!!!:smash::smash::smash::smash:

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:53 AM

Holy ****. I'm voting for Ron Paul.
*Ron Paul bumper sticker suddenly materializes out of thin air and falls onto your lap*

gregulus

07-27-2009, 12:10 PM

Ron Paul is so magical and god-like that he can manipulate nature like that.

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 12:12 PM

Ron paul only has 9 fingers but they are all dixx.

gregulus

07-27-2009, 12:59 PM

That means he can **** 10 chicks at once. That's another reason why he is our Savior.

TerranYouApart

07-27-2009, 02:55 PM

9/11 was an inside job. bush thought the twin towers looked old and boring.

maxwell_1888

07-27-2009, 04:25 PM

It's unheard of for black people to be racist. Is it?

When the hell did I suggest that? :rolleyes:

YDtoad

07-27-2009, 05:44 PM

So much for the notion that the caller was like "oh no, black people!"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a41VIvFsbClU

"A woman who called the police to report two men trying to break in to the home of Harvard University Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. didn’t mention the suspects’ race, according to a police recording.

Police in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where Harvard is located, made the recording public today without commenting on it. The caller reported “two gentlemen trying to get into a house,” according to the recording. "

Obama owes the country an apology.

Maxibon

07-27-2009, 05:50 PM

Obama owes the country an apology.
+ a few trillion $

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 05:58 PM

If only hope & change dollars were accepted

YDtoad

07-27-2009, 06:00 PM

hey ron are you regretting your vote yet?

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 06:01 PM

Shut up steve it was a weak moment and I was confused

:(

YDtoad

07-27-2009, 06:02 PM

Shut up steve it was a weak moment and I was confused

:(

hehehehehehehehe

Maxibon

07-27-2009, 06:05 PM

its ok he dropped like 10 approval points this month and now he has a majority disapproving

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 06:08 PM

like my vote mattered anyways lol

YDtoad

07-27-2009, 06:09 PM

like my vote mattered anyways lol

that doesn't excuse bad choices :o

Maxibon

07-27-2009, 06:09 PM

well now i think less of you so ya it mattered a whole lot didnt it

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 06:10 PM

9_9

P13

07-27-2009, 06:15 PM

Why is it racist that the neighbour called the police?

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 06:16 PM

+ a few trillion $

I want that money. You know I will spend it responsibly.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 06:17 PM

because using the phone is symbolic of a person thinking their race is superior to others

this isn't rocket science

P13

07-27-2009, 06:22 PM

you aren't making sense

Smokey D

07-27-2009, 06:27 PM

lukeskywalkertakingadump6

07-27-2009, 06:31 PM

It is police nature to act stupidly, they don't know any better they are like wild animals.

YDtoad

07-27-2009, 08:23 PM

He said the cop acted stupidly for arresting him not that the woman was stupid for calling the police.

PS the cop did act stupidly, since he arrested someone for a crime which hadn't been committed.

The allegation, by both Obama and Gates, was that race played a role, when it clearly did not.

gregulus

07-27-2009, 08:42 PM

It's about as cool to hate Obama right now as it was to love him in November.

jaredong

07-27-2009, 09:05 PM

honestly, i think its all overblown.

This is just another of those things that the media jumps to another issue. Cant wait for some other celebrity death, hurricane, scandal or epidemic to buzz about.

I think its weird how, on one hand, we hold the president to higher standards than all of us (having to deal with the ton of responsibilities a president does), and then at the same time criticize him for not being one of us and elitist. He cant be both perfect and an everyman at the same time.

I think Obama not having all the information when making a comment is somewhat analogous to lots of people forming strong opinions about this issue when they themselves dont have all the issues when making comments here.

I've made (and will make) a lot of dumb statements in my life. He said something silly. Oh well! What other one zillion things is Obama doing right now thats 10x more important but nobody knows/cares about.

Smokey D

07-27-2009, 09:08 PM

The allegation, by both Obama and Gates, was that race played a role, when it clearly did not.

Well, I'm not sure it's entirely unreasonable that Gates thought race played a role.

And you can't infer an allegation of racism by Obama towards the caller from what he said about the cop.

And it still doesn't change the fact that the cop did in fact act stupidly and outside the law.

Iskandar

07-27-2009, 10:36 PM

P.S. I think all of the police bashing in this thread is pretty childish.The dumb actions of one cop don't impugn law enforcement in general.

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:21 PM

He was disorderly

his fault

the only thing thats stupid is the fact that this is even being reported.

freeliminator

07-27-2009, 11:24 PM

what did the cop do iskandar

Mr. Ron

07-27-2009, 11:25 PM

amazing avatar, nick lol

die of starvation

07-28-2009, 01:24 AM

TerranYouApart

07-28-2009, 01:29 AM

obama is the devil.

(i worship satan)

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 03:51 AM

He was disorderly

his faultit was his house wtf

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 07:51 AM

it was his house wtf

You can not be disorderly on your own property. If you play very loud music, you can be cited for a violation. And if you continuously shout insults at police officers who come to investigate a complaint, both in and out of your house, you can be arrested.

Well, I'm not sure it's entirely unreasonable that Gates thought race played a role.

As soon as the police showed up, he started shouting racist insults. Gates is the racist.
oh and:
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=7406
http://tinyurl.com/l6cc8a

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 08:01 AM

playing loud music prevents other people from enjoying their property

insulting people who are on your property is different, they can leave if they dont like it

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 08:03 AM

playing loud music prevents other people from enjoying their property

Shouting obscene and insulting things at other people, police officers in particular, does, too.

insulting people who are on your property is different, they can leave if they dont like it

The difference is the police have the authority and the cause to be there, whereas you can demand a private citizen leave your property.

DBoons Ghost

07-28-2009, 08:03 AM

it was his house wtf

The same thing happened to me with my car when I was a teenager. It was my car, unregistered parked on private property. The cop told me the car was stolen, but it wasn't. I had the title. It happened to have old plates on it. He claimed I was lying and stole the car to mess with me, and goad me into allowing him to arrest me so they could spend the day back in the house doing paperwork on my expense. I freaked out on the cop. He threw me a beating, him and his partner.

I was arrested and spent the weekend in jail. Monday evening, I was released with a DAT.

On the arrest report, the cops lied and said they pulled me over when in fact the car was parked in my project parking lot. Someone complained about the noise. The car had no exhaust and was straight headers.

I had marks on my face. I tried to explain the cops beat me up but they denied it and said it must have happened in central bookings. The court appointed idiot assigned to me told me to shut up and it will end here.

I later tried to file a complaint but the cops told me to take a hike because of the completely fabricated police report.

If anything, Gates is lucky to have friends and lawyers and because he's a black opportunistic lying scumbag, he will probably sue and win and I have never seen a more racist piece of scum.

Stuff like this happens due to class, not race. You guys make me sick with all your textbook absurdity about racism. None of you have a clue.

Spend some time in a hood. Live there and be a low class scum. THere is no black and white out there, only poor people.

Idiots.

DBoons Ghost

07-28-2009, 08:07 AM

Also yeah it was his house. All he had to do was prove it without talking about the cops mother.

That's exactly how I would expect a professor to behave eh? Harvard professor!

If a white Harvard professor talked about a black cop's mother and behaved like Gates did, he would be fired immiediately and puiblicly lambasted.

Gates is a filthy low brow affirmative actioned dirty nigga. No other way to say it.

This is the worst example of racial double standards I have ever witnessed. You pathetic sheep want to be enlightened in racial awareness but not realizing you're all selling your pathetic souls out of guilt you didn't even garnish. Stupid dopes.

Gates should be fired from Harvard. Just like a white professor would be. People should be ashamed for him, but they aren't.

Sheeple.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 08:24 AM

Shouting obscene and insulting things at other people, police officers in particular, does, too.
who is that affecting other than the people on his property

all the police had to do was leave the property to stop the 'disturbance'

The difference is the police have the authority and the cause to be there
not after they had determined it was his house

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 08:40 AM

who is that affecting other than the people on his property

all the police had to do was leave the property to stop the 'disturbance'

So, if the police show up to investigate something, and the person inside/outside is loud and belligerent, the cops should simply turn around and leave? They had a responsibility to complete a thorough investigation on a legit report. While doing so, Gates was aggressively belligerent, shouting racist remarks.

not after they had determined it was his house

At that point they were ready to leave and he followed them outside, continuing his racist shouting. And that's when he was arrested.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 08:46 AM

they completed the investigation at the point they found out it was his house

and yes they should leave after that, regardless of what he's saying to them

DBoons Ghost

07-28-2009, 09:10 AM

That is kinda true. The cops should have just left.

It's egomaniacal and wholly fascist on the part of the cop, to stay and take abuse just to validate an arrest.

Mr. Ron

07-28-2009, 10:40 AM

it was his house wtf
I realize this, and I respect private property. However, if he wasn't such a giant cry baby and just calmed down none of this would have happened.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 10:58 AM

no thats irrelevant if you dont have the freedom to be a dick (without harming other people) then you arent free at all since what constitutes being a dick is entirely subjective

Iskandar

07-28-2009, 11:35 AM

Define harm.

DBoons Ghost

07-28-2009, 11:45 AM

Yeah I mean, harmful words are harmful.

If the cop said "hey nigga get outside" I would take a gander at the harm there. Would you say those words would be harmful? Anymore so then talkin 'bout a cop's mom?

So maybe the cop's mom wasn't present to talk to the esteemed professor angryblackman outside, I would still guess that was harmful as well.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 11:47 AM

insults dont harm a psychologically sound person

call people a ****** if you want i dont care

Catfish BROnes

07-28-2009, 12:34 PM

neighbors are racist.

Someone please explain to me how what the neighbors did was racist at all. If I saw anyone (white/black/hispanic) doing what Gates was doing I probably would have called the cops too. They were just doing the responsible thing. It doesn't mean they're racist, it means that they aren't ok with what may have looked like a break in.

The only racist in this situation is Gates. I think the article Dboon posted about the cop teaching a racial-profiling class rules them out as being racist too as far as being racists and what not.

The cops probably overreacted, but to call them racists or to scold them in any way is profoundly retarded.

Obama should have never commented on this. It's not that he isn't allowed to have an opinion, it's just that in situations like this, a black president is only going to stir up more trouble than is necessary. I'm sure the NAACP could handle that job by themselves anyway.

Basically this is just another example of blacks in America trying to get back at whitey by blowing minute things like this way out of proportion. If two black cops had arrested a white professer from harvard in a similiar scenario like this do you think it would be all over the news? No, absolutely not.

TerranYouApart

07-28-2009, 12:41 PM

i like how the right wing has stirred this all up to derail obama's trying to forge new policy. so dumb.

catfish, do you know what your neighbors look like? would it cross your mind for a second if you had a black neighbor that it might be him? people are just so ready to dial 911 it is dumb they don't realize they waste tax money every time they do that ****.

Catfish BROnes

07-28-2009, 12:48 PM

catfish, do you know what your neighbors look like? would it cross your mind for a second if you had a black neighbor that it might be him? people are just so ready to dial 911 it is dumb they don't realize they waste tax money every time they do that ****.

I do know what my neighbors look like. But whose to say the same for this situation? It's pretty obvious that there was no racism involved in the phone call to 911, so what since does it make for the neightbors to call the cops on someone they knew? They didn't. They called the cops because they saw someone they obviously didn't recognize appearing to be breaking into a home. I'm sure they would have done the same for anyone of any color/nationality.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 12:52 PM

cents*

Catfish BROnes

07-28-2009, 12:53 PM

Yes, I made a spelling error. My mistake.

Maxibon

07-28-2009, 12:56 PM

its because you're a racist

TerranYouApart

07-28-2009, 12:57 PM

but he spelled it correctly he just talks like a negro man.

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 05:00 PM

tbh the gates case in and of itself is really secondary to the main issue of the president wading into a local case, acknowledging his own ignorance of the case, and then proceeding to pass a coarse judgment and infer that police officers are racist. It's very harmful on virtually every single level.

TerranYouApart

07-28-2009, 05:05 PM

wow how are you comfortable with yourself just spouting out lies like that? unless you can direct me to where obama said all cops are racist and admitted his own ignorance.

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 05:09 PM

wow how are you comfortable with yourself just spouting out lies like that? unless you can direct me to where obama said all cops are racist and admitted his own ignorance.

I didn't claim that Obama said all cops are racist.

Well, let's examine his response:
"But let's say my old house in Chicago -- (laughter) -- here I'd get shot. " (translation: police shoot black people lol)

"And number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcing disproportion ately. That's just a fact.

As you know, Lynn, when I was in the state legislature in Illinois, we worked on a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that blacks and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately. And that is a sign, an example of how, you know, race remains a factor in the society."

Inference: cops are stupid racists.

TerranYouApart

07-28-2009, 05:17 PM

cops are stupid and racist are you dumb or just blind?

YDtoad

07-28-2009, 05:17 PM

lol

Smokey D

07-28-2009, 06:28 PM

He was disorderly
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=17395458
his fault

No, there is no provision in Massachusetts law to arrest someone for yelling at a cop.

You can not be disorderly on your own property. If you play very loud music, you can be cited for a violation. And if you continuously shout insults at police officers who come to investigate a complaint, both in and out of your house, you can be arrested.

No there is no provision in Massachusetts laws to arrest someone for yelling at a cop.

As soon as the police showed up, he started shouting racist insults. Gates is the racist.

Yeah maybe I dunno.

oh and:

Gimme a run down of what happens.

Stuff like this happens due to class, not race. You guys make me sick with all your textbook absurdity about racism. None of you have a clue.

Um, class and racism are closely connected so that's neither suprising nor contentious.

The only racist in this situation is Gates. I think the article Dboon posted about the cop teaching a racial-profiling class rules them out as being racist too as far as being racists and what not.

It's pretty funny that you think this would in fact stop racist cops from being racist.

"And number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcing disproportion ately. That's just a fact

Um, he's right.

Catfish BROnes

07-29-2009, 08:34 PM

It's pretty funny that you think this would in fact stop racist cops from being racist.

I don't. I do think that it makes it seem much less likely that the cops acted in a racist manner though.

Maxibon

07-29-2009, 08:35 PM

pretty sure thats what cops do to protect themselves

if a guy gets a few complaints about it they'll stick him on the anti racism board or something

its a bit like the but one of my best friends is black argument

Catfish BROnes

07-29-2009, 08:39 PM

You make a good point. It's possible.

Danger Bird

07-29-2009, 08:46 PM

Well, let's examine his response:
"But let's say my old house in Chicago -- (laughter) -- here I'd get shot. " (translation: police shoot black people lol)
I don't think you get the joke

Smokey D

07-29-2009, 11:48 PM

I don't. I do think that it makes it seem much less likely that the cops acted in a racist manner though.

How do you figure.

cobert

07-30-2009, 12:34 AM

Someone please explain to me how what the neighbors did was racist at all.

k

If I saw anyone (white/black/hispanic) doing what Gates was doing I probably would have called the cops too.

Good, this means you're sane.

They were just doing the responsible thing. It doesn't mean they're racist, it means that they aren't ok with what may have looked like a break in.

Old dude with cane, nice neighborhood, luggage on porch, daylight...nothing about this looks like a break in unless you factor in the stereotype of a black criminal.

The cops probably overreacted, but to call them racists or to scold them in any way is profoundly retarded.

The cops acted like dicks. You just used nicer words to say it, but I don't think you would call yourself profoundly retarded.

Basically this is just another example of blacks in America trying to get back at whitey by blowing minute things like this way out of proportion. If two black cops had arrested a white professer from harvard in a similiar scenario like this do you think it would be all over the news? No, absolutely not.

It might have made a brief stir over how ridiculous the situation is, but it wouldn't have made for commentary about race in America, like this did. So no, it wouldn't have, but to realize why this made a splash and then crying because 'a white guy wouldn't have gotten the same attention!' is pretty dumb.

EDIT: also the lady didn't say anything about race, but that doesn't mean she wasn't influence by his skin color to call. I think of people who get angry at black people being loud and calling them "idiots" (race neutral) when a group of loud white people would get off because they're "just having fun."

cobert

07-30-2009, 12:49 AM

Stuff like this happens due to class, not race. You guys make me sick with all your textbook absurdity about racism. None of you have a clue.

These things are connected.

Spend some time in a hood. Live there and be a low class scum. THere is no black and white out there, only poor people.

True, but this didn't happen in a poor neighborhood.

Also yeah it was his house. All he had to do was prove it without talking about the cops mother.

1. poor white man is assaulted by police in his younger years.
2. poor white man gains understanding of how police abuse power.
3. poor white man gets internet.
4. black man is subject of police abusing power
5. black man notes that black people go through things like this ever day.
6. poor white man uses internet to say that the black man should have kept his mouth shut and licked the police officer's boots.

If a white Harvard professor talked about a black cop's mother and behaved like Gates did, he would be fired immiediately and puiblicly lambasted.

If the white professor had been teaching at the university for almost 20 years like Gates, I doubt he would be fired.

Gates is a filthy low brow affirmative actioned dirty nigga. No other way to say it.

There are plenty of ways to make ridiculous falsities, actually. There are a lot less ways to tell the truth.

This is the worst example of racial double standards I have ever witnessed. You pathetic sheep want to be enlightened in racial awareness but not realizing you're all selling your pathetic souls out of guilt you didn't even garnish. Stupid dopes.

Gates should be fired from Harvard. Just like a white professor would be. People should be ashamed for him, but they aren't.

Sheeple.

lol

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 07:09 AM

These things are connected.

No. They aren't, because black people aren't the only ones who are poor. Latinos arent the only ones who are poor.

True, but this didn't happen in a poor neighborhood.

It didn't have to. The point of the statement was to assure you morons that it happens to everyone who lives in a lower class neighborhood, which for some retarded reason you assume white people don't live in these areas. They do, and the same thing happens to them. They just don't make a huge stink about it. Your ignorance spills out all over your point here, because if it didn't ever happen to you, it doesn't happen. I assume you combed all stats for the last 50 years of police activity.

1. poor white man is assaulted by police in his younger years.
2. poor white man gains understanding of how police abuse power.
3. poor white man gets internet.
4. black man is subject of police abusing power
5. black man notes that black people go through things like this ever day.
6. poor white man uses internet to say that the black man should have kept his mouth shut and licked the police officer's boots.

I don't know what this means or what it's supposed to provide a retort for. Seems ignorant babble to me. No one licks anyone's boots.

However, we all know and have proven this, that all Gates had to do was do what the officer told him, and none of this would have ever happened. You want to make assumptions based on things that matter little to cops, which is why you will never be a cop, and you'll be stupid for the rest of your life possibly. A cop HAS TO INVESTIGATE TO THE FULL EXTENT. A neighbor called 911. The neighbor has obligated the Cambridge police to serve her needs. The cop was doing that to the best of his ability. You fail that because of some level of ignorance I have seen before. I don't know what to tell you in that regard, because I think your ignorance is at a level I have not seen in some time. Maybe you should do some research? Can't neglect to one to grovel to the other can you?

If the white professor had been teaching at the university for almost 20 years like Gates, I doubt he would be fired. Really? You doubt a white professor wouldn't be fired from Harvard if he took a racist stance towards a black cop? Really?

There are plenty of ways to make ridiculous falsities, actually. There are a lot less ways to tell the truth.

Ok? People like Gates make someone like me sick, and he embarrasses his own people in the same way I have to assume responsibilty for people like David Duke. I'm not white but all black parties in NYC agreed the man acted a fool, and acted very unprofessional, unfortunatly proving most stereotypes. Keep suckin his dick though like the ignoramus you are.

lol

I'll lol your mama!

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 07:15 AM

It bugs me you guys refuse to admit the only racial profiling that occured here was by Gates when he assumed Crowley was a white cop there to harrass him.

You're all brainwashed sheep.

Smokey D

07-30-2009, 07:19 AM

No. They aren't, because black people aren't the only ones who are poor. Latinos arent the only ones who are poor.

To say they're related isn't to say it's a 1 for 1 relationship.

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 07:36 AM

They aren't related at all.

Race doesn't contribute to class the same way class isn't defined by race.

Even that statement is bogus. It bothers me the educational system has forced anyone to believe there is any relation, and the fact they do is why people like cobert and sometimes you, will never get it.

Smokey D

07-30-2009, 08:20 AM

Race is constructed or refracted through classist terms. There is a tendency to treat well off black people as honourary whites, rather than to validate them on their own terms.

And of course they're related.

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 08:57 AM

I've seen you say the same things in other discussions and it's like you're regurgitating college professorisms verbatim.

I bet you have no experiences of your own to support that statement. Because everything I've experienced in regards to race and class defy that statement.

I am also curious what data was used to draw such conclusions. Or is it someone's theory based on statistics?

cobert

07-30-2009, 12:56 PM

No. They aren't, because black people aren't the only ones who are poor. Latinos arent the only ones who are poor.

I didn't say that?

It didn't have to. The point of the statement was to assure you morons that it happens to everyone who lives in a lower class neighborhood, which for some retarded reason you assume white people don't live in these areas. They do, and the same thing happens to them. They just don't make a huge stink about it. Your ignorance spills out all over your point here, because if it didn't ever happen to you, it doesn't happen. I assume you combed all stats for the last 50 years of police activity.

We're not saying "awwww the rich black dude should get away with it because he's black!" The issue lies with police, race, and poverty, although poverty doesn't play into this situation.

Also you don't know about my life. You weren't the only white person in the world that lived in a poor area.

I don't know what this means or what it's supposed to provide a retort for. Seems ignorant babble to me. No one licks anyone's boots.

I was pointing out how you know that cops can be, but when it happens outside of poverty and relates strictly to race how you hold it to a completely different standard.

However, we all know and have proven this, that all Gates had to do was do what the officer told him, and none of this would have ever happened.

Except the cop shouldn't have arrested him for anything because the "disorderly conduct" was only caused by the cop (who was only doing his job). If a cop throws a tomato at me and I get angry, then he arrests me for getting angry...

A cop HAS TO INVESTIGATE TO THE FULL EXTENT. A neighbor called 911. The neighbor has obligated the Cambridge police to serve her needs. The cop was doing that to the best of his ability.

I'm only attacking the police for arresting him for disorderly conduct. Other than that, they were really only responding to the neighbors call. It's not like they did anything wrong by showing up, they weren't the ones that saw an old man with luggage in broad daylight pushing the door.

I'll lol your mama!

ooooh you!

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 01:06 PM

it is in a cop's nature to be racist. they are taught how to profile when they join the force. isn't this common sense?

i can empathize with a black man who was alive when he had to drink out of a separate water fountain, and was alive to see MLK assassinated

dboon you go on and on about how you were poor, but you don't know **** about being a minority so you have no ****ing place in this discussion as far as i'm concerned.

Mr. Ron

07-30-2009, 01:10 PM

lol oh man

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 01:17 PM

yeah, i'm of jamaican descent so i know more about being a minority than all of you honkies.

Mr. Ron

07-30-2009, 01:19 PM

saying cops are inherently racist is a bit of a stretch

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 01:21 PM

they are though i don't understand why you have to deny such obvious positions on the basis of political correctness or controversial..ness?

they also profile based on age, hair style, and style of clothing too are you going to deny this?

Mr. Ron

07-30-2009, 01:43 PM

alakazam9891

07-30-2009, 01:44 PM

The black agenda strikes again.

JohnXDoe

07-30-2009, 01:56 PM

this whole thing kind of irks me. national attention at the presidential level is a bit much

and the woman who called the cops initially even had a press conference. seemed like a self important windbag to me. she just wanted to make sure everyone knows SHE is not a racist, loves all peoples, was brought up to respect all peoples, and has suffered many wounds over the past couple weeks from people thinking bad things about her. she was practically in tears over making an innocent phone call, and its RACIST implications :/

its was kinda dumb and overblown

and for those who don't watch the tonight show or vist the thread....this is lol

http://www.tonightshowwithconanobrien.com/video/clips/blue-and-black-lager-072909/1140390/

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 02:03 PM

dboon you go on and on about how you were poor, but you don't know **** about being a minority so you have no ****ing place in this discussion as far as i'm concerned.

Lol, I have no idea what it's like to be black.

However, I was the only white kid in my crowd.

You aint black either, and 8 pages of people who are neither black and some of whom aren't even American, have no place in this discussion either.

Can't learn this stuff from a textbook junior. From all of your posts I have ever read you know absolutley nothing about anything. You're a decent troll though I'll give you that.

DBoons Ghost

07-30-2009, 02:06 PM

I didn't say that?

We're not saying "awwww the rich black dude should get away with it because he's black!" The issue lies with police, race, and poverty, although poverty doesn't play into this situation.

Also you don't know about my life. You weren't the only white person in the world that lived in a poor area.

I was pointing out how you know that cops can be, but when it happens outside of poverty and relates strictly to race how you hold it to a completely different standard.

Except the cop shouldn't have arrested him for anything because the "disorderly conduct" was only caused by the cop (who was only doing his job). If a cop throws a tomato at me and I get angry, then he arrests me for getting angry...

I'm only attacking the police for arresting him for disorderly conduct. Other than that, they were really only responding to the neighbors call. It's not like they did anything wrong by showing up, they weren't the ones that saw an old man with luggage in broad daylight pushing the door.

ooooh you!

It seems like we're saying the same things just in a different manner.

The cop shouldn't have arrested Gates, but Gates should have repsected the man who was there to protect his home.

Gates profiled a white cop. It's still a racist thing to do. Just because Gates is black doesn't mean it's not racist what he did.

If it were a black cop, he wouldn't have done that and we'd be argueing about something else. Or discussing, since I'm not arguing. I have no right to have an opinion because I'm not black.

Truth be told, cops brought this all on themselves. It will take generations to correct, and even then maybe not.

alakazam9891

07-30-2009, 02:45 PM

I'm not black either.

alakazam9891

07-30-2009, 02:46 PM

But personally, I think the cop was right in arresting Gates because what if he was lying?

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 03:50 PM

Lol, I have no idea what it's like to be black.

However, I was the only white kid in my crowd.

You aint black either, and 8 pages of people who are neither black and some of whom aren't even American, have no place in this discussion either.

Can't learn this stuff from a textbook junior. From all of your posts I have ever read you know absolutley nothing about anything. You're a decent troll though I'll give you that.

my grandma is black, my skin is white, but i can identify with black people. also i grew up a portion of my childhood in norcross georgia. the hood, if you will. riding marta. not being out after dark, ever. then we moved to an upper middle class area where i was again the minority. divorced parents. getting the free lunch at school.

i can identify with minorities. you're just a closet racist. personally i wish you would just grow a pair and say i hate lazy ******s but i know you won't, pussbag.

Mr. Ron

07-30-2009, 03:54 PM

poor whites live the same life, terran

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 03:56 PM

what does this thread have to do with poor people at all?

Mr. Ron

07-30-2009, 04:00 PM

You seem to think that that sort of life is exclusive to poor blacks? I could have misunderstood you.

TerranYouApart

07-30-2009, 04:02 PM

i'm saying i know where the black guy is coming from when he sees a cop and is like "oh **** 5-0 I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING GO AWAY i just want to live" i'm just saying i can empathize with him.

when you're a minority it's hard sometimes to feel that you aren't being centered on. you can't blend in. and sometimes we as humans need that. after an entire life of that, it builds spite and disdain inside an individual.

Smokey D

07-30-2009, 05:58 PM

I've seen you say the same things in other discussions and it's like you're regurgitating college professorisms verbatim.

I bet you have no experiences of your own to support that statement. Because everything I've experienced in regards to race and class defy that statement.

Um, okay but your personal experiences are largely irrelevant.

I am also curious what data was used to draw such conclusions. Or is it someone's theory based on statistics?

I could cite you like half a trillion sociology journals if you really wanted to read them.

die of starvation

07-31-2009, 02:11 AM

You seem to think that that sort of life is exclusive to poor blacks? I could have misunderstood you.

gates isn't poor that's the whole point
rich white people never get arrested for being in their own house

also poor white people get arrested on their front lawn for being high on meth not in their house for being loud

DBoons Ghost

07-31-2009, 07:28 AM

my grandma is black, my skin is white, but i can identify with black people. also i grew up a portion of my childhood in norcross georgia. the hood, if you will. riding marta. not being out after dark, ever. then we moved to an upper middle class area where i was again the minority. divorced parents. getting the free lunch at school.

i can identify with minorities. you're just a closet racist. personally i wish you would just grow a pair and say i hate lazy ******s but i know you won't, pussbag.

Bait me! You don't know me and I don't know you. I am not a closet anything.

Shut up and troll, fool. You sound like a wannabe.

DBoons Ghost

07-31-2009, 07:29 AM

Um, okay but your personal experiences are largely irrelevant.

I could cite you like half a trillion sociology journals if you really wanted to read them.

My personal experience is now and will forever be relevant to me. I don't need to read journals.

Reality is your friend.

alakazam9891

07-31-2009, 09:51 AM

A lot of black people are poor!

Iskandar

07-31-2009, 01:44 PM

My personal experience is now and will forever be relevant to me. I don't need to read journals.

Reality is your friend.It might be to you, but it means **** in an argument.

Pray tell, what do academics study if not reality? I'm not talking about some post-modern pseudo-intellectual fluff, I mean sciences like sociology.

DBoons Ghost

07-31-2009, 02:33 PM

It might be to you, but it means **** in an argument.

Pray tell, what do academics study if not reality? I'm not talking about some post-modern pseudo-intellectual fluff, I mean sciences like sociology.

Dude I don't come here to argue anymore. I just come here to kill time. If it makes you feel better I'll slow my roll bustin on academics.

I can't argue that last statement because I haven't taken anything past basic sociology and I found that hogwash because my experiences with people usually go against what they've attempted to teach.

Like that bile that Smokey spews. It's nonsense to me. It means something to you, and to anyone else who studies human beings, but what can be learned about people when you're not really studying people, but instead coming to conclusions based on circumstances without ever talking or meeting with the very people you're gathering data on.

Honestly sociology seems a pretty good scam academia played on everyone in order to create one more useless field in which to study and shove empirical data down people's throats. The very same people you claim to study, you are out of touch with and know nothing about, yet claim you do based on sweeping generalizations and absurd conclusions that sometimes make sense.

All the social research done to inform politicians of social issues and form public policy to create social awareness have failed so miserably because they all make real human issue into a science, and most if not all of it has failed the very people it claims to study.

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 02:49 PM

It might be to you, but it means **** in an argument.

wait what

personal experiences > information you looked up on wikipedia

alakazam9891

07-31-2009, 02:57 PM

You're all god damn retards!!!

Henry Gates is just part of THE BLACK AGENDA! It's an organization that whites and other races aren't supposed to know about. The Black Agenda's goal is to completely disarm and immobilize the white race. Henry Gates isn't even REAL, it's just another attempt the Black Agenda is doing to bring the white race further down the totem pole.

cobert

07-31-2009, 03:00 PM

alakazam9891

07-31-2009, 03:01 PM

Just accept it. The Black Agenda is getting stronger. Soon, white men will be riding at the back of the bus. It started in the 60's with MLK, Malcolm X, and Ray Charles, and now that all of them have been killed, people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Chris Rock are picking up the torch.

In fact, this thing has been in the works since the days of Harriet Beacher Stowe.

Iskandar

07-31-2009, 03:29 PM

wait what

personal experiences > information you looked up on wikipediaUm, no. It doesn't work that way. It's more like academic sources > Wikipedia > personal experience as far as reliability goes. You can make up any **** you want and I don't know how trustworthy it is. It's a lot harder to do that when you have to use rigorous processes and submit your work for peer review.

Chris Is Gay

07-31-2009, 03:36 PM

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 04:04 PM

Um, no. It doesn't work that way. It's more like academic sources > Wikipedia > personal experience as far as reliability goes. You can make up any **** you want and I don't know how trustworthy it is. It's a lot harder to do that when you have to use rigorous processes and submit your work for peer review.

So you're saying that all personal experiences are "made up"? I may be interpreting what you said wrong, but nice logic regardless.

How is something you read about but have not dealt with personally going to be more useful than a personal experience in regards to reliability.

You're not making any sense, Alex.

DBoons Ghost

07-31-2009, 04:04 PM

Um, no. It doesn't work that way. It's more like academic sources > Wikipedia > personal experience as far as reliability goes. You can make up any **** you want and I don't know how trustworthy it is. It's a lot harder to do that when you have to use rigorous processes and submit your work for peer review.

You do whatever you have to do to make you feel better about the things you've learned and the sources you've learned them from. I practice the same. I'm not going to run away crying because a couple of guys on a forum board won't validate what I have to say. I respect that you require handbooks to formulate any opinion you may ever have.

I made it this far. I've accomplished much. It has clearly worked very well indeed.

die of starvation

07-31-2009, 04:07 PM

So you're saying that all personal experiences are "made up"? I may be interpreting what you said wrong, but nice logic regardless.

well in this case dboon's "personal experiences" are lies but even if they were true statistical principles would make them meaningless when considered against a broad survey with contrary indications

JohnXDoe

07-31-2009, 04:26 PM

Dude I don't come here to argue anymore. I just come here to kill time. If it makes you feel better I'll slow my roll bustin on academics.

I can't argue that last statement because I haven't taken anything past basic sociology and I found that hogwash because my experiences with people usually go against what they've attempted to teach.

Like that bile that Smokey spews. It's nonsense to me. It means something to you, and to anyone else who studies human beings, but what can be learned about people when you're not really studying people, but instead coming to conclusions based on circumstances without ever talking or meeting with the very people you're gathering data on.

Honestly sociology seems a pretty good scam academia played on everyone in order to create one more useless field in which to study and shove empirical data down people's throats. The very same people you claim to study, you are out of touch with and know nothing about, yet claim you do based on sweeping generalizations and absurd conclusions that sometimes make sense.

All the social research done to inform politicians of social issues and form public policy to create social awareness have failed so miserably because they all make real human issue into a science, and most if not all of it has failed the very people it claims to study.
jeez dude write a book

:p :D :p :cool:
You do whatever you have to do to make you feel better about the things you've learned and the sources you've learned them from. I practice the same. I'm not going to run away crying because a couple of guys on a forum board won't validate what I have to say. I respect that you require handbooks to formulate any opinion you may ever have.

I made it this far. I've accomplished much. It has clearly worked very well indeed.
what did you say dboon?

let me have a look-see

brb

k back

well from what i can gather dboon was saying the cop was just "doing his job"

i would have to tend to agree, as Mr Gates was belligerent and uncooperative and in a state which could be considered a threat or potentially harmful to others or himself if emotions rose and tempers were to flare, etc

i think cuffing him and sitting him down to calm him would have sufficed, however. no need to take him down to the station and charge him. unless that failed. and i think it may have

if i were an officer in that situation and someone was real heated up and not willing to calm down or cooperate fully...i may have to take them in for a bit, too. just to work things out

i saw Gates call this guy a "rogue cop" after the incident. although Gates was not treated badly and his rights not violated. so..his perception of reality might be somewhat....askew

maybe he's never seen the Rodney King tape...

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 05:21 PM

well in this case dboon's "personal experiences" are lies but even if they were true statistical principles would make them meaningless when considered against a broad survey with contrary indications

You're taking what I was trying to say out of context. /:

gregulus

07-31-2009, 05:47 PM

my personal experiences tell me that atoms do not exist, therefore chemistry is based on lies and chemistry professors are just brainwashed know-it-all's trying to brainwash other people.

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 06:59 PM

that's an illogical example and you know it

Smokey D

07-31-2009, 07:03 PM

I didn't experience World War II, therefore it didnt happen.

alakazam9891

07-31-2009, 07:06 PM

Yes it did happen you god damn retard.

If you guys would listen, you'd know that this all a scheme over THE BLACK AGENDA. Look it up!!!~

Against Miik!

07-31-2009, 07:08 PM

o shi.

Personal experiences can be lies because we all have limited experiences and we take our own prejudices into them. So yeah.

alakazam9891

07-31-2009, 07:09 PM

What are you guys even talking about? You've gotten so god damn far off from the actual subject! HENRY GATES! Not god damn PAST EXPERIENCES.

THE BLACK AGENDA. Case god damn closed.

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 07:15 PM

I can't even seriously discuss this with you guys because your retorts are both illogical and immature. <_<

Maybe your idea of personal experience is different than mine.

Maybe you're just dumb.

Against Miik!

07-31-2009, 07:17 PM

Or maybe you are...

hm???

Smokey D

07-31-2009, 07:19 PM

If I haven't seen something first hand, I can't believe it.

Especially if some academic ivory tower egg heads have written about it.

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 07:19 PM

I guess we can just agree to disagree. I'm not disregarding "book knowledge" as useless, because it obviously isn't. I'm just saying that when it comes to certain situations, if you have had previous experience in dealing with it and were successful, why would you revert to Wikipedia to figure out how to handle it.

STREET SMARTS

Smokey D

07-31-2009, 07:20 PM

Yeah and I'm saying that race and poverty are related. I don't see how this could possibly be rejected as 'book knowledge'.

Against Miik!

07-31-2009, 07:21 PM

So if you had only met one black person in your life and they happened to be scum, would you take that with for the rest of your life?

at brones

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 07:26 PM

Yeah and I'm saying that race and poverty are related. I don't see how this could possibly be rejected as 'book knowledge'.

I not sure I even know what I'm arguing over here.

Race and Poverty are related. I mean, you could learn that from personal experience, but it's pretty well recorded as well.

You'll have to excuse me I'm a bit high right now.

So if you had only met one black person in your life and they happened to be scum, would you take that with for the rest of your life?

at brones

Most likely until I met one that isn't. But that's not possible so pick a better example.

Smokey D

07-31-2009, 07:28 PM

Race and Poverty are related. I mean, you could learn that from personal experience, but it's pretty well recorded as well.

Yah well that was the proposition Dboon rejected on the basis of his personal experience, which started this part of the thread.

Against Miik!

07-31-2009, 07:38 PM

Most likely until I met one that isn't. But that's not possible so pick a better example.

If you managed to live through a plane crash you would probably be very hesitant to get on a plane again which is really kind of stupid because air travel is the safest form of transportation.

If you are a woman and you are raped you might be likely to believe that all men are scum.

If you take a trip and it rains every day you may come to the conclusion that the city you stayed in sucks but it probably doesn't.

These are all realistic conclusion that very shallow people would draw. A critical person realizes that their experiences are not the end all be all of the cumulative human experience. If something happens to you, it is one of very many possibilities that only came to fruition through circumstance after circumstance.

There are also exceptions, which you can feel free to offer. For example, single events can probably be exempt, since the experience is isolated. Like 9/11 for example. Ask most people if 9/11 sucked, and most will be like yeah 9/11 pretty much sucked.

Catfish BROnes

07-31-2009, 07:38 PM

Oh well I was just trying to argue that in certain situations personal experience can be the most reliable source to go by.

But I must say I disagree with Dboon's opinion on race and poverty.

JohnXDoe

07-31-2009, 07:58 PM

Yeah and I'm saying that race and poverty are related. I don't see how this could possibly be rejected as 'book knowledge'.
so poor whites are poor for the same reason as poor blacks? or for different reasons, maybe?

if in America race and poverty are "related" how do we distinguish white poverty and minority poverty? are poor whites just lazy and stupid? because whites hold all the power according to some. they have ALL the opportunity and money. or are poor whites just not poor like poor minorities? somehow, they are poor for other reasons

i don't disagree so much with your statement as i do the way it is used by some...and perhaps even by you, if i understand correctly

now, racism and poverty may be related. we see how institutionalized racism kept some people down in this country for many years. but a persons race has no bearing on how hard they can work or what they can learn these days

if you are poor these days...make the right decisions, shed your past and your peoples history, and move up. black, brown, white, purple...race has nothing to do with an individuals ability to do that if willing to learn, try, and sacrifice for themselves. and to be a little smart about life and how to live it

Against Miik!

07-31-2009, 08:03 PM

now, racism and poverty may be related. we see how institutionalized racism kept some people down in this country for many years. but a persons race has no bearing on how hard they can work or what they can learn these days

Being the smartest man in the world doesn't pay the bills, and it doesn't necessarily earn respect. So yes race and poverty are linked because race and racism are (obv) linked.

JohnXDoe

07-31-2009, 08:09 PM

you don't have to be real smart to work a job. some people are "working poor" yeah. smarts? nah that won't do much. but education, training, and hard work has lifted many. if not right out of poverty, at least to a better standard of living

race and poverty used to be linked. we have history to come out from under. but people have to realize its history first...

thats up to the individual. not any racist or government body

Smokey D

07-31-2009, 08:43 PM

I'll answer in more detail later, but I want to make it clear that I never said the relationship between race and poverty was necessarily a causal one. I was simply pointing out that there is a statistical and perceived correlation between them. It may even be that it's more perceived than real.

1338 h4x0r

08-01-2009, 05:30 AM

why are we still on about this angry nigglet

DBoons Ghost

08-03-2009, 09:48 AM

Yeah and I'm saying that race and poverty are related. I don't see how this could possibly be rejected as 'book knowledge'.

I didn't reject it as book knowledge. I rejected it as asinine and wrong.

If race and poverty are related and you can so readily explain why black people and poor people go hand in hand, why is it that an equal majority of poor people in America are white and/or other?

Black people are 12.4% of the population. They aren't all poor. 20% are poor. Hispanics are 20% poor. Asians are 10.2% poor. There is no other data for races within the caucasion umbrella. That's just as racist as just gathering data on blacks.

If you looked a State poverty rates in the United States, you'd find many holes in that theory. Many indeed. Are certain States of the Union still racist? Maybe.

Honestly for the sake of me being wrong, since I don't care if I'm right, were the conclusions in your sociology journals based on census bureau numbers?

The poverty rate within the US has only been measured since the 1960s and all numbers have dropped for all measured races, since only certain races are measured.

You always fail to mention the many ingredients to the potential formula. Poverty varies state to state, region to region, and it's never determined by the race who lives there.

I'm not trying to debunk all of sociology, I just question the methods. It seems fairly biased to me, and most conclusions defy common sense.

1338 h4x0r

08-03-2009, 10:17 AM

Could it be that the conditional probability a person will be poor is higher if they're a nigglet?

DBoons Ghost

08-03-2009, 10:22 AM

Could it be that the conditional probability a person will be poor is higher if they're a nigglet?

That's not the statement Smokey generally makes, and yes. I would say the above is a factual statement. However, 3 or 4 generations after the fact, a lot of immigrants if they were looked at as closely as the liberal academics look at black people, they would find that to be the very same among those races who immigrated here and found poverty upon initial arrival. I mean, we get it. We stole them and brought them here in chains and forced them into poverty for more generations I would like, but they are coming out of it and have been steadily since the 1990s.

However, the formula you state, you could apply regional to that, and regardless of race living in said region, metropolitan or not, and have the same information. The same goes for certain states, and so on and so forth.

1338 h4x0r

08-03-2009, 10:33 AM

Certainly

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 10:42 AM

So you're saying that all personal experiences are "made up"? I may be interpreting what you said wrong, but nice logic regardless.You are 'cause I never said it was all made up, just that it's pretty easy to lie.
How is something you read about but have not dealt with personally going to be more useful than a personal experience in regards to reliability.I just explained why. Academics are supposed to be neutral; you and I are not neutral.
You do whatever you have to do to make you feel better about the things you've learned and the sources you've learned them from. I practice the same. I'm not going to run away crying because a couple of guys on a forum board won't validate what I have to say.It's nothing personal, as you seem to enjoy thinking. My personal experiences with black people aren't any more relevant than yours.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 10:45 AM

well yours are probably worse because you have a huge prejudice against them but there you go

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 10:46 AM

Yeah, I hate the darkies. Also the Jews.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 10:47 AM

you dont have to hate people to be racist

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 10:48 AM

I feel being unsympathetic to the issues facing people of colour is far more racist than not, but whatevskis.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 10:55 AM

saying that all people of colour face the same issues is racist by definition

instead you could just say poor people

DBoons Ghost

08-03-2009, 10:58 AM

I feel being unsympathetic to the issues facing people of colour is far more racist than not, but whatevskis.

To me, that is an insult to them and if you knew any black people living in a ghetto in America you would know that. The issues facing people of color are the same issues every minority immigrant group has faced and deals with to this day. Of course they have to carry the burden of slavery, and they get to use that to their advantage when they feel they are being discriminated against which is more a defense mechanism that is constantly purported by people like you who think they know, but know very little.

Sympathy is not what they want, nor do they want to be studied like mole rats in cages. They have to fight the adversity like everybody else did when they arrived in this country.

This obviously takes liberty to discount the past years that areas of this country to this day refuse to integrate, but it's not just black people they discriminate against but people have their heads so far up a nigga's *** they don't see it that way.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 11:04 AM

iskandar is a middle class warrior for black people

because black people are too dumb to help themselves obviously they need some white dude in college

DBoons Ghost

08-03-2009, 11:10 AM

iskandar is a middle class warrior for black people

because black people are too dumb to help themselves obviously they need some white dude in college

To no fault of his, I agree this seems to be the case. It's cute for sure though!

It angers black folks to no end people like him exist, but since I am not black, and I wasn't taught it in school, I am sure your opinion and mine will be dissmissed for lack of empirical data.

1338 h4x0r

08-03-2009, 11:15 AM

To me, that is an insult to them and if you knew any black people living in a ghetto in America you would know that. The issues facing people of color are the same issues every minority immigrant group has faced and deals with to this day. Of course they have to carry the burden of slavery

Ah done robbed dat bank acuz of slavery

JohnXDoe

08-03-2009, 11:19 AM

Could it be that the conditional probability a person will be poor is higher if they're a nigglet?
could it be that the conditional probability a person will be poor is higher if they're white and live in Appalachia or the Rust Belt?

i think so. but again, i guess those are just stupid, dumb white people. and of course if racism didn't exist ALL blacks would be intelligent and succussful. unlike the stupid white people

this thread proves one thing to me: if you are white and poor you are less then a black

dumb whitey has NO excuses! :smash:

DBoons Ghost

08-03-2009, 11:21 AM

JxD nailed it.

Dumb whitey has no excuse, and no entitlements, and no symapthetic college kids fighting for their cause.

Oh whatever shall they do. Affirmative action can't help you! Go back to Serbia!

1338 h4x0r

08-03-2009, 11:26 AM

I'm not in favor of either radical or moderate affirmative action

Let's get that clear now

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 11:27 AM

White people are doing pretty badly, I agree.
saying that all people of colour face the same issues is racist by definition

instead you could just say poor peopleI never said that though.

PS. that'd be classist.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 11:33 AM

PS. that'd be classist.class generally imbues you with certain characteristics, so do countries, race does not

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 11:33 AM

That's classist and jingoistic Chad. You should know better by now.

Haliburton

08-03-2009, 11:41 AM

i thought you were a collectivist

a person is a product of environment and all that

ie class and culture

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 12:31 PM

Their environment shapes them but they also shape their environment.

Unlike libertarians, I don't think life choices are made in a vacuum.

What would be desirable is if people were empowered so they could have equal opportunities in practice instead of just under the law.

siva_chair

08-03-2009, 11:34 PM

Their environment shapes them but they also shape their environment.

Now you are starting to get it poor people are often poor because they perpetuate that kind of environment. Your constant victimization of them certainly doesn't help them, either, and if I were in their position, I would be very insulted.

Unlike libertarians, I don't think.

FYP

What would be desirable is if people were empowered so they could have equal opportunities in practice instead of just under the law.

Yeah it is definitely desirable to have quadriplegic firemen (sorry....firepeople) and brain surgeons with down syndrome. Sweet idea man.

People aren't going to ever have equal opportunities because people aren't equal, despite your egalitarian fantasies. Short of turning people into impoverished, uncreative, mindless ants, it just isn't going to happen. People like you who push to instil egalitarianism by the heel of a jackboot are calling for a crime against nature itself.

TheDarkHorse

08-03-2009, 11:36 PM

Siva would you just shut up?

Man, that felt good.

siva_chair

08-03-2009, 11:37 PM

Siva would you just shut up?

No.

Iskandar

08-03-2009, 11:46 PM

Now you are starting to get it poor people are often poor because they perpetuate that kind of environment. Your constant victimization of them certainly doesn't help them, either, and if I were in their position, I would be very insulted.You might think that.

But you don't speak for poor people do you.
FYPFor a bunch of self-described individualists, libertarians have quite the hive mind going on. It's kind of creepy actually.
Yeah it is definitely desirable to have quadriplegic firemen (sorry....firepeople) and brain surgeons with down syndrome. Sweet idea man.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_fallacy
People aren't going to ever have equal opportunities because people aren't equal, despite your egalitarian fantasies.That's an argument against equal outcomes not equal opportunities.
Short of turning people into impoverished, uncreative, mindless ants, it just isn't going to happen. People like you who push to instil egalitarianism by the heel of a jackboot are calling for a crime against nature itself.And here I thought Murray Rothbard was dead.

siva_chair

08-03-2009, 11:56 PM

You might think that.

But you don't speak for poor people do you.

But you do, right?

You are right, people generally enjoy being told they are useless and can't help themselves and they need you, the great white avenger to help them because they are powerless to their environment.

For a bunch of self-described individualists, libertarians have quite the hive mind going on. It's kind of creepy actually.

Yeah smart people are usually attracted to the truth and rational thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_fallacy

No you said people should have equal opportunity in practice. Now are you going to deny Legless Larry his dream of being a firefighter?

That's an argument against equal outcomes not equal opportunities.

Umm no see by subsidizing the poor, "creating an equal playing field" (which is really just code for everything should be redistributed so everyone has the same amount of stuff), etc, you are trying to force equality of outcomes. You can try and dance around that all you want, but you aren't going to fool anyone with half a brain.

And here I thought Murray Rothbard was dead.

Good ideas don't die.

Iskandar

08-04-2009, 12:25 AM

But you do, right?

You are right, people generally enjoy being told they are useless and can't help themselves and they need you, the great white avenger to help them because they are powerless to their environment.Do I really need to link you to more Wikipedia articles on fallacies. There are too many here for me to look them all up right now.
Yeah smart people are usually attracted to the truth and rational thought.Of course libertarians are smart and what they believe is true and rational, because you said so.
No you said people should have equal opportunity in practice. Now are you going to deny Legless Larry his dream of being a firefighter?He can apply for the job.

But he won't get it.
Umm no see by subsidizing the poor, "creating an equal playing field" (which is really just code for everything should be redistributed so everyone has the same amount of stuff), etc, you are trying to force equality of outcomes. You can try and dance around that all you want, but you aren't going to fool anyone with half a brain.Or just increasing social mobility.

If we wanted to really produce equal outcomes we could do that much more efficiently by just confiscating everyone's wealth, dividing it by the population and giving an exactly equal share to every citizen.

But that's retarded why would we do that.
Good ideas don't die.A lot of Marxists probably thought that too.

PS. being told you sound exactly like some other guy would be kinda insulting for me. Not sure if you find it flattering or what.

siva_chair

08-04-2009, 12:40 AM

Do I really need to link you to more Wikipedia articles on fallacies. There are too many here for me to look them all up right now.

No you can just go on victimizing poor people if you want.

Btw how much money have you given lately to the poor Iskandar?

Of course libertarians are smart and what they believe is true and rational

You said it boss.

He can apply for the job.

But he won't get it.

Oh but that is discrimination how dare you?!?!?

Protip: He can already apply for the job today, just like any poor person can apply for a high paying job as an investment broker. Doesn't mean he will get it.

Or just increasing social mobility.

Yes by hindering others'. Awesome dude. You people are too successful, so let's forcibly take your **** and give it to people who aren't as successful.

Hint: Welfare and social programs don't increase social mobility for the poor. If anything it just turns them into chronic dependants.

If we wanted to really produce equal outcomes we could do that much more efficiently by just confiscating everyone's wealth, dividing it by the population and giving an exactly equal share to every citizen.

But that's retarded why would we do that.

I don't know but that is essentially what is being done when you are taxed for social programs. Sounds a lot like what you are advocating to me.

A lot of Marxists probably thought that too.

Except Marxists are utopian lunatics with no understanding of economic laws.

PS. being told you sound exactly like some other guy would be kinda insulting for me. Not sure if you find it flattering or what.

I have no problem with being told I am correct, no.

Iskandar

08-04-2009, 12:55 AM

No you can just go on victimizing poor people if you want.Because this is fun, I saw a tu quoque, strawman and ad hominem for starters. That's at a cursory glance. There were probably more had I cared to look them up. All said, quite impressive.
Btw how much money have you given lately to the poor Iskandar?Not that it's relevant but I work for an immigrant services center, helping impoverished people resettle and start new lives in Canada. Would you like me to write a check too though.
Yes by hindering others'. Awesome dude. You people are too successful, so let's forcibly take your **** and give it to people who aren't as successful.

Hint: Welfare and social programs don't increase social mobility for the poor. If anything it just turns them into chronic dependants.
Arguing from ideology, nice.
Except Marxists are utopian lunatics with no understanding of economic laws.You think that about Marxists, I think that about anarcho-capitalists. Whatever floats your boat.

(And I think that about Marxists too. Gotta be fair.)
I have no problem with being told I am correct, no.So you're correct because your opinions are in line with someone whom you think is correct. Seriously, what.

Non sequitur. Does Not Follow.

siva_chair

08-04-2009, 01:11 AM

Because this is fun, I saw a tu quoque, strawman and ad hominem for starters. That's at a cursory glance. There were probably more had I cared to look them up. All said, quite impressive.

I figured I'd give your way of arguing points a try. You don't seem to understand any other way. I suppose the next step would be to just respond to everything with "well, that is like, just your opinion."

Not that it's relevant but I work for an immigrant services center, helping impoverished people resettle and start new lives in Canada. Would you like me to write a check too though.

Do you work for this service for pay or is it strictly pro bono?

I'm simply curious how much you actually donate considering you keep insisting I hate poor people or some crap like that.

Arguing from ideology, nice.

I said nothing incorrect. And if so, please show where instead of responding with the above horseshit.

You think that about Marxists, I think that about anarcho-capitalists. Whatever floats your boat.

(And I think that about Marxists too. Gotta be fair.)

Only difference is that you have regularly demonstrated that you are as handicapped when it comes to economic thought as the Marxists are. If you wish to claim that ancaps are mistaken economically, it would be wise to point out how.

So you're correct because your opinions are in line with someone whom you think is correct. Seriously, what.

Non sequitur. Does Not Follow.

See your problem is that you view everything as simply a matter of opinion, when it isn't.

Iskandar

08-04-2009, 01:20 AM

Do you work for this service for pay or is it strictly pro bono?Pro bono. I'm planning to use the experience to get a paying job in the field when I graduate.

Satisfied?
Only difference is that you have regularly demonstrated that you are as handicapped when it comes to economic thought as the Marxists are. If you wish to claim that ancaps are mistaken economically, it would be wise to point out how.The entire Austrian School's flaws are a thread unto themselves.

But foremost is their insistence on strict methodology (or "praxeology" as they call it) as opposed to reliance on empirical data, which renders Austrians' arguments as fundamentally unfalsifiable and thus unscientific. If you recall, this was exactly the criticism Karl Popper had of Marxism and other utopian movements in The Open Society and its Enemies.
See your problem is that you view everything as simply a matter of opinion, when it isn't.See your problem is that you view your ideology as the only correct or even valid one, which leads to stubborn doctrinaire arguing and an inability to consider the opinions of others or even lend them credibility.

Seriously consider this before firing off a response because I think it's something you need to ponder.

siva_chair

08-04-2009, 01:42 AM

Pro bono. I'm planning to use the experience to get a paying job in the field when I graduate.

Satisfied?

Yes. I was just curious is all.

The entire Austrian School's flaws are a thread unto themselves.

Well everytime you assert its supposed flaws you never back them up.

But foremost is their insistence on strict methodology (or "praxeology" as they call it) as opposed to reliance on empirical data, which renders Austrians' arguments as fundamentally unfalsifiable and thus unscientific. If you recall, this was exactly the criticism Karl Popper had of Marxism and other utopian movements in The Open Society and its Enemies.

Already covered this but I see you just ignored it.

The Austrian school does not reject empirical data, it rejects positivism. It states that economics, like logic and mathematics, is not derived from experience, it is prior to experience.

Non-praxeological schools of thought mistakenly believe that relationships between certain events are well-established empirical laws when they are really necessary and logical praxeological ones. This leads them to behave as if the statement "a ball cannot be blue and non-blue all over at the same time" requires testing in Europe, America, Africa, Asia and Australia.

See your problem is that you view your ideology as the only correct or even valid one, which leads to stubborn doctrinaire arguing and an inability to consider the opinions of others or even lend them credibility.

Seriously consider this before firing off a response because I think it's something you need to ponder.

I welcome you to critique any of my arguments with actual rational arguments, but simply saying "that is just your opinion" just doesn't cut it.

And I don't see much value in considering the opinions of people who refuse to back them up with actual argumentation and reason. That is the way we establish truth: through discourse and reasoning.

Iskandar

08-04-2009, 01:49 AM

The Austrian school does not reject empirical data, it rejects positivism. It states that economics, like logic and mathematics, is not derived from experience, it is prior to experience.Economics is a social science, not a hard science and is not subject to the same processes as say mathematics.

Austrians admit the subjectivity of value so how can they claim economic laws are absolute even as they acknowledge the highly subjective nature of human preferences.
And I don't see much value in considering the opinions of people who refuse to back them up with actual argumentation and reason. That is the way we establish truth: through discourse and reasoning.You appear to have already made up your mind on what is true (Austrian economics, and by extension anarcho-capitalism) and as I'm aiming to demonstrate, the Austrian system is antithetical to rational argument because it's fundamentally untestable theorizing.

Smokey D

08-04-2009, 02:04 AM

I didn't reject it as book knowledge. I rejected it as asinine and wrong.

If race and poverty are related and you can so readily explain why black people and poor people go hand in hand, why is it that an equal majority of poor people in America are white and/or other?

Black people are 12.4% of the population. They aren't all poor. 20% are poor. Hispanics are 20% poor. Asians are 10.2% poor. There is no other data for races within the caucasion umbrella. That's just as racist as just gathering data on blacks.

If you looked a State poverty rates in the United States, you'd find many holes in that theory. Many indeed. Are certain States of the Union still racist? Maybe.

Honestly for the sake of me being wrong, since I don't care if I'm right, were the conclusions in your sociology journals based on census bureau numbers?

The poverty rate within the US has only been measured since the 1960s and all numbers have dropped for all measured races, since only certain races are measured.

You always fail to mention the many ingredients to the potential formula. Poverty varies state to state, region to region, and it's never determined by the race who lives there.

I'm not trying to debunk all of sociology, I just question the methods. It seems fairly biased to me, and most conclusions defy common sense.

Well, as I said, I never said race or racism are the cause of poverty. The point is that racism and poverty are probably in some sort of complex and multifaceted relationship. It is significant, I think, that people are inclined to equate poverty and race in minorities but not in the majority. Part of this probably comes from the fact that a substantial amount of people's exposure to minorities does not in fact reflect what actually happens in minority groups, because it is the unusual and exceptional which stands out.

I'm not trying to debunk all of sociology, I just question the methods. It seems fairly biased to me, and most conclusions defy common sense.

How is it biased to say race, racism and poverty seem to be related in some way.

Your point would only begin to make sense if the percentage of poor black people was not in fact disproportionate to their percentage of the general population. As you pointed out, there is an 8% discrepancy.

The issues facing people of color are the same issues every minority immigrant group has faced and deals with to this day.

Yeah probably so what?

class generally imbues you with certain characteristics, so do countries, race does not

Well, if you change race for culture, that's debatable.

Now you are starting to get it poor people are often poor because they perpetuate that kind of environment. Your constant victimization of them certainly doesn't help them, either, and if I were in their position, I would be very insulted.

This is true. But the problem is that the effects are compounded, and most of the time no single decision can be said to be the cause of poverty or perpetuating the cycle of poverty. So rational decisions at local levels when aggregated produce a suboptimal result.

But I don't agree with the idea that we should 'sympathise' necessarily.

Yeah it is definitely desirable to have quadriplegic firemen (sorry....firepeople) and brain surgeons with down syndrome. Sweet idea man.

But those differences are specifically relevant to their condition and occupation.

There's nothing bad about having a poor black man be a surgeon so long as he's qualified. And there should be nothing to prevent him from becoming qualified.

siva_chair

08-04-2009, 02:49 AM

Economics is a social science, not a hard science and is not subject to the same processes as say mathematics.

Wait so it is subject to the same processes as natural sciences like physics? Hmm....

Economics is the science of exchange.

Austrians admit the subjectivity of value so how can they claim economic laws are absolute even as they acknowledge the highly subjective nature of human preferences.

Because the goal of Austrian economics isn't to predict subjective human preferences (something positivist based economics does). The truths of economics involve the formal relation between ends and means, and not their specific contents.

Austrians view the laws of economics as conceptual truths, and economic truth is grounded in praxeology, or the “logic of action.” Basically praxeology is the study of those propositions concerning human action that can be grasped and recognized as true simply in virtue of an inspection of their constituent concepts, much like mathematics in this respect.

They don't reject empiricism in the classical sense of using induction as a means of forming conceptual truths which are then operated upon deductively to form the school's various theories, they reject positivism and the idea that economics can be treated like a naturalistic science. Nor do they reject the value of empiricism for historical work, either.

Your gripes with the Austrian school come from a misunderstanding of it on your part.

You appear to have already made up your mind on what is true (Austrian economics, and by extension anarcho-capitalism) and as I'm aiming to demonstrate, the Austrian system is antithetical to rational argument because it's fundamentally untestable theorizing.

Rational argument /= positivism.

Plus, positivism is a self-defeating idea anyway.

siva_chair

08-04-2009, 02:55 AM

This is true. But the problem is that the effects are compounded, and most of the time no single decision can be said to be the cause of poverty or perpetuating the cycle of poverty. So rational decisions at local levels when aggregated produce a suboptimal result.

I never said it was a singular decision that causes perpetual poverty. In fact, I mentioned before it was often a lifestyle choice (which is many decisions) that has a high time preference that is the most likely reason for perpetual poverty.

But those differences are specifically relevant to their condition and occupation.

There's nothing bad about having a poor black man be a surgeon so long as he's qualified. And there should be nothing to prevent him from becoming qualified.

No, but there is something bad about giving a poor black man the job of surgeon on the basis that he is poor and black.

It is also not right for a group of men to rob others so that this poor black man can become qualified, either.