Democracy, the Worst Form of Government Ever Tried

[Meatplow]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu6.html

Just happened to be doing a brief investigation of several forms of government and came across this article. I would just like a detailed response for or against democracy, thankyou.

[Light Flantastic]

According to the right wing, global interventionist Freedom House
what

[Iskandar]

It's LewRockwell.com. Who gives a damn.

Anyway I'm not gonna do your homework for you or whatever but you could start with The End of History and the Last Man.

[Radiobass81]

I wouldn't say it's the worst form of government. It has it's flaws, just like any other system. It seems the "most just" since theoretically everyone has the same (electoral) power as the other, but, you know, I'm not a fan. It's just as easiliy used for personal interest.

It's the real life.

EDIT: This is a great quote, worth clicking on the link :p.

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

~ Winston Churchill

[Radiobass81]

One can only wonder what "rigorous analytical standards" Freedom House employed when it classified Bush II's post-911 "Secure Homeland" as "Free" and awarded it a rating of 1 for Political Rights and 1 for Civil Liberties; while awarding mainland China, which takes from "Unfree" Chinese less than a third of what the US federal government takes from "Free" Americans in taxes, a rating of 7 for Political Rights and 6 for Civil Liberties.

One can only wonder what "rigorous analytical standards" Freedom House employed when it classified Taiwan, with its unelected US puppet squatting in the ROC Presidential Palace since May 20, 2004, as "Free" and awarded it a rating of 2 for Political Rights and 1 for Civil Liberties; while classifying transparent, uncorrupt Singapore as "Partly Free" and awarding it a rating of 5 for Political Rights and 4 for Civil Liberties.

Yeah. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Light Flantastic]

nah he's right most of these indexes are stupid and biased

[Radiobass81]

nah he's right most of these indexes are stupid and biased

Yeah, but would anyone actually dare to wonder why China wasn't voted Free?

I'd say the essay is pretty bad but with a good amount of bibliography...

[1338 h4x0r]

It's LewRockwell.com. Who gives a damn.

Anyway I'm not gonna do your homework for you or whatever but you could start with The End of History and the Last Man.

lol Francis Fukuyama

[Light Flantastic]

economic freedom is part of overall freedom

its the weighting thats arbitrary (hence the index being stupid), so yeah its feasible that china could be freer than a lot of western states

[Iskandar]

lol Francis FukuyamaYou didn't actually bring up anything related to his thesis at all but sent me some random crap about transhumanism. Was this supposed to be a smear.

[1338 h4x0r]

You didn't actually bring up anything related to his thesis at all but sent me some random crap about transhumanism. Was this supposed to be a smear.

No I was just lol'ing at him for the sake of lol'ing

"In the early days, a common reaction was "this is just science fiction". But in the last several years, academia (and to some extent the wider public) has been begun paying attention to the possibility of using our growing technological powers not only to change the world around us but also to change ourselves by enhancing some of our basic biological capacities - for example, prolonging healthy lifespan, augmenting elements of cognition such as memory, concentration, and mental energy, and improving emotional well-being.

Discussions are no longer stuck on whether human enhancement will ever be possible. Instead, the focus is increasingly on ethics: whether it ought to be done. This is a bit of progress. Hopefully, a few years hence, we will finally enter the constructive phase where we ask, not whether human enhancement is in general good, yes or no, but rather questions like: Which particular enhancements are worth pursuing now? How do we overcome the various technical problems? What kind of regulation, public policy, and funding priorities do we need?"

Bostrom > Fukuyama

[Iskandar]

Okay.

China is definitely more economically and politically free than Canada what with the state-directed economy and single-party monopoly on political power.

[1338 h4x0r]

If you're a factory lord or a rich amoral expat or something China is def. a free country!

[Iskandar]

If you're a factory lord or a rich amoral expat or something China is def. a free country!That's every country.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont know about china but singapore probably is

[Iskandar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

[Light Flantastic]

I think you could have linked to far worse than some white dude getting caned. America has the death penalty too and yet it ranks as free as possible on the index. Like I said, the index is stupid.

I don't know if punishment for crimes you did commit counts as freedom though really.

[Iskandar]

Of course I could have. It's Singapore. This is a country that fines people for spitting gum on the sidewalk.

The point is that he received cruel and unusual punishment for a crime he only confessed to in the belief he would be granted clemency.

[Light Flantastic]

You don't believe you should be fined for spitting gum on the sidewalk?

[Iskandar]

You don't believe you should be fined for spitting gum on the sidewalk?No that's stupid.

[Light Flantastic]

True, the taxpayer should pay for cleaning it up.

[Iskandar]

You're acting in a most decidedly statist way. I believe you are attempting to troll, user Light Flantastic. I bid you adieu.

[Light Flantastic]

But I want to change.

[Benzum]

Iskandar can I be a legendary too?

[Meatplow]

I have to ask is anarchy just a pipe dream or is there some merit to being drawn towards the idea?

[McP3000]

no youre right, people that smoke pipes often get dreams of anarchy

[Smokey D]

You're acting in a most decidedly statist way. I believe you are attempting to troll, user Light Flantastic. I bid you adieu.

Wait. Exactly who do you think should tidy up litter? The litterer or people who happen to be under the power of the state?

[Iskandar]

Wait. Exactly who do you think should tidy up litter? The litterer or people who happen to be under the power of the state?The litterer is under the power of the state.

And they should clean up their own damned mess.

But spitting out some gum is hardly overturning a bunch of trash cans.

[McP3000]

are you saying that Chad is littering?

[Iskandar]

Is he? I'm not in wherever the hell he lives.

[Smokey D]

The litterer is under the power of the state.

And they should clean up their own damned mess.

But spitting out some gum is hardly overturning a bunch of trash cans.

Presumably if everyone spat out every piece of gum they ever ate, it could create quite a lot of mess.

[Iskandar]

Presumably if everyone spat out every piece of gum they ever ate, it could create quite a lot of mess.Okay Kant. I'm not gonna bite.

[McP3000]

yeah you dont want to bite more than you can chew

[Smokey D]

Okay Kant. I'm not gonna bite.

That's because you have no answer.

The person at fault has a responsibility to fix the problem. I don't see why chewing gum should be any different to any other form of litter.

[TerranYouApart]

the problem with our democracy is that money casts a larger vote than any individual's

[Iskandar]

I didn't say otherwise.

But gum is so inconsequential there must be some obscure legal term (in Latin no less) for minor offenses that don't actually harm anyone. This is your province.

[Smokey D]

I didn't say otherwise.

But gum is so inconsequential there must be some obscure legal term (in Latin no less) for minor offenses that don't actually harm anyone. This is your province.

It's only inconsequential because not many people do it and because the state uses tax payer money to pay cleaners to get rid of it before it becomes a problem. Why tax when you can fine? User pays.

[Iskandar]

It's only inconsequential because not many people do it and because the state uses tax payer money to pay cleaners to get rid of it before it becomes a problem. Why tax when you can fine? User pays.Why take the trouble to track down everyone who spits their gum out and fine them.

[Smokey D]

Why take the trouble to track down everyone who spits their gum out and fine them.

That's not how it works. It's like speeding. If you get caught, you get fined.

Except it makes even more sense than fining speeding since speeding is only a problem sometimes.

[Iskandar]

Speeding is far more likely to cause bodily harm and endanger life than gum.

At least any gum I've ever heard of.

[TerranYouApart]

america is the worst form of democracy ever tried

speed limits don't save lives, do some research on that subject. speed limits are a money making scheme, just like half the other beaurocratic bullshit you have to do or else you get fined.

[McP3000]

america is the worst form of democracy ever tried
1. No

speed limits don't save lives, do some research on that subject. speed limits are a money making scheme, just like half the other beaurocratic bullpoop you have to do or else you get fined.
2. speed limits have always been about Ticket revenue

[Aaron]

america is the worst form of democracy ever tried

speed limits don't save lives, do some research on that subject. speed limits are a money making scheme, just like half the other beaurocratic bullpoop you have to do or else you get fined.
What sources do you have to make that statement?

[Iskandar]

america is the worst form of democracy ever triedYou must not know much about politics because there are some pretty crappy democracies out there, ie. whose status as democracies at all is questionable to say the least.

[Smokey D]

Speeding is far more likely to cause bodily harm and endanger life than gum.

At least any gum I've ever heard of.

Speeding is only a problem when you hit someone.

Spitting out gum in the street always causes a mess.

[Aaron]

Hyperbole is so passe guys. There's not polar good and bad in politics and social issues, there's varying degrees of success. At least try and justify statements if you make them.

[Iskandar]

Speeding is only a problem when you hit someone.

Spitting out gum in the street always causes a mess.Do you even notice most of the time.

Speeding is emphatically a problem when it endangers others and causes reckless driving which could in turn lead to a multicar pileup behind you. Can a wad of a gum do that.

[TerranYouApart]

germany has way lower fatality rates on their autobahns with no speed limits. i thought everyone knew that. going 90 through a neighborhood should be punished, but freeway speed limits are dumb. if someone is dumb enough to drive around at 120 mph and kill themselves then so be it.

america is a democracy where the dollar gets the vote. our government is absolutely awful. nearly everything it does is superfluous and unproductive. our government is in the business of staying on top of the world, not serving the people it "represents". it sucks

[Aaron]

germany has way lower fatality rates on their autobahns with no speed limits. i thought everyone knew that. going 90 through a neighborhood should be punished, but freeway speed limits are dumb. if someone is dumb enough to drive around at 120 mph and kill themselves then so be it.

america is a democracy where the dollar gets the vote. our government is absolutely awful. nearly everything it does is superfluous and unproductive. our government is in the business of staying on top of the world, not serving the people it "represents". it sucks
I bet you're one of those people that drives right on the speed limit right?

Speed limits, and fining people for breaking them, isn't just about revenue or minimising risk to self and others. It's also about education for those who are in the car with the driver, ie kids, to drive safely. If people we're fined for speeding, then it'd promote other reckless ways of driving to everyone witnessing it.

[Smokey D]

Do you even notice most of the time.

This is because we have people tidying it up.


Speeding is emphatically a problem when it endangers others and causes reckless driving which could in turn lead to a multicar pileup behind you. Can a wad of a gum do that.

No it's only a problem if you are a bad driver or whatever. Speeding is of course a bigger potential problem, but littering is always an actual problem and therefore it makes at least as much sense to fine people for littering as it does for speeding.

[TerranYouApart]

i never said you shouldn't get tickets for endangerment. note the part about the neighborhoods. and if you're wondering, i always drive around the speed limit. normally it's obvious how fast is too fast. freeways in bum**** nowhere having a speed limit is absolutely retarded. any freeway actually

[P13]

I'm pretty sure that theocracies, monarchies, Stalinist states, Taliban controlled states, and imperialism are worse than democracy.

i never said you shouldn't get tickets for endangerment. note the part about the neighborhoods. and if you're wondering, i always drive around the speed limit. normally it's obvious how fast is too fast. freeways in bum**** nowhere having a speed limit is absolutely retarded. any freeway actually
driving above the speed limit endangers people no matter where you're driving.

[Iskandar]

Imperialism isn't a form of government.

[P13]

****, i meant a government run by an emperor. which is pretty much a monarchy

[TerranYouApart]

driving above the speed limit endangers people no matter where you're driving.

so why aren't there speed limits on private property (where drugs, unregistered firearms etc.. are also illegal)

basically, what you said isn't true. if it takes the government to tell you to drive slow, maybe you're one of those guys that should have tasted the sweet nectar of darwin by now

[P13]

I'd agree with you if the person driving too fast was the only one capable of getting hurt, but they can hurt others so...

[Iskandar]

****, i meant a government run by an emperor. which is pretty much a monarchyAn empire.

[P13]

for some reason it didn't seem like the right word when i was writing the post.


:\

[TerranYouApart]

I'd agree with you if the person driving too fast was the only one capable of getting hurt, but they can hurt others so...

this is a dumb argument. if someone endangers someone else they should get a ticket, just because i drive at 75 mph in the left lane on the freeway doesn't mean anybody is in danger. http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_HMCs.htm


that is so dumb you think empires are only run by emperors hahaha

[P13]

or the equivalent, I was trying to talk about governments that have emperors, and that's why i didn't say empires. **** someone needs to make a word for it

[TerranYouApart]

aristocracies? that's probably wrong, but a guess nonetheless

[P13]

Iskander? Do you know?

[TerranYouApart]

i think i was right, bro

[P13]

yeah but the leader isn't considered divine in aristocracies

[TerranYouApart]

um yeah they are (by force or not) or they wouldn't be in power for more than a year or two.

[P13]

I thought aristocratic leaders were in power because they owned the land/had more money than everyone else and they just came in to power that way

[TerranYouApart]

normally they seize power by force and hereditary rule goes from there. the roman empire was an aristocracy. north korea is an aristocracy.

[Mr. Ron]

to tell you the truth I'd much rather have an enlightened council that decided things instead of what we have now

[TerranYouApart]

until they decided to kill you, but it's for the best

[Mr. Ron]

No I am valuable to society. They can kill the ones that deserve to be killed though if they want.

[TerranYouApart]

no see a leader with absolute power doesn't want people with confidence in his country. you would be killed

[Mr. Ron]

No see this isn't a realistic thing at all I'm talking about ideal situations. An enlightened council that had the best outlook for society.

[TerranYouApart]

oh, so you're a libertarian then.

[just joshin bro]

[Mr. Ron]

lol what no.

[TerranYouApart]

yeah i knew u weren't when you could admit that you weren't discussing reality

[Mr. Ron]

but seriously democracy is iffy in my book


so many idiots

[Smokey D]

Democracy is less important for its substantive outcomes than because it reduces the ability of the government to **** with you. Presumably there are other types of government where the government was similarly restricted, but experience tells us most of them don't work.

Also, I think the dim-wittedness of the plebeian mass is greatly overstated, especially since the kind of things which people base election decisions on do not require a great deal of intelligence.

PS a state with an emperor is called an empire but the word empire isn't limited to describing a state with an emperor.

PPS An emperor ruled empire is a monarchy, which may or may not include features of aristocracy, republicanism or theocracy.

PPPS An aristocracy means rule of the best, not rule of the wealthy.

[die of starvation]

the liberal constitution thing is more important than the elections but I guess they don't hurt. a lot of money gets wasted though.

as long as you don't let people vote on ballot initiatives those are a bad idea everyone votes for more programs and less taxes. And to take away other people's rights.

[Light Flantastic]

But gum is so inconsequential there must be some obscure legal term (in Latin no less) for minor offenses that don't actually harm anyone. This is your province.
It costs something like $250,000,000 a year to clean up here. Not really inconsequential.

driving above the speed limit endangers people no matter where you're driving.Have you ever actually driven anywhere, in a lot of places if you drive below the speed limit you'll probably have an accident faster.

And ya its true the limitless sections of autobahn are safer than other highways etc etc.

[Noku]

Usually in democracies that don't work the people can expect that, the American democracy is an exception for the rule though, people don't even realize it doesn't work for them.

[Iskandar]

An aristocracy means rule of the best, not rule of the wealthy.In origin but then a dictator was originally just someone with emergency powers.

It shows that "best" became conflated with "wealthy."
No see this isn't a realistic thing at all I'm talking about ideal situations. An enlightened council that had the best outlook for society.Philosopher kings.

This is also a silly idea because I fail to see how this enlightened council could be smarter and do a better job than elected politicians (who are contrary to popular belief, usually quite well-educated) and who have the benefit of being removed when we've had enough of them. Long story short, all government sucks. It's a question of the government that sucks the least.

[die of starvation]

Usually in democracies that don't work the people can expect that, the American democracy is an exception for the rule though, people don't even realize it doesn't work for them.
ya the american public is really getting a raw deal, getting to live in the best country in the world with a multitude of opportunities for people who have talent and/or try hard

[Light Flantastic]

(who are contrary to popular belief, usually quite well-educated) We all know an unrelated degree qualifies you to run a country, after all.

[Iskandar]

We all know an unrelated degree qualifies you to run a country, after all.Heads of state don't have degrees in biochemistry, they have degrees in law or political science.

[Light Flantastic]

there are obviously more factors in what makes someone a good politician than a cursory education in the status quo

[die of starvation]

I fail to see how this enlightened council could be smarter and do a better job than elected politicians
because sometimes the correct decision can be unpopular, which disincentivizes elected politicians but has no effect on the philosopher kings

[Light Flantastic]

well ya people have some dumb sense of entitlement though they might get real mad about being powerless and kill the philosopher kings

[Mr. Ron]

In origin but then a dictator was originally just someone with emergency powers.

It shows that "best" became conflated with "wealthy."
Philosopher kings.

This is also a silly idea because I fail to see how this enlightened council could be smarter and do a better job than elected politicians (who are contrary to popular belief, usually quite well-educated) and who have the benefit of being removed when we've had enough of them. Long story short, all government sucks. It's a question of the government that sucks the least.
there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.

[TerranYouApart]

wisdom doesn't win wars.

[Mr. Ron]

the Vietcong beg to differ.

[die of starvation]

well ya people have some dumb sense of entitlement though they might get real mad about being powerless and kill the philosopher kings
we have thought control now that doesn't happen anymore unless you're lazy about your indoctrinating

[Iskandar]

there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.Naturally since wisdom is the product of intelligence.

That aside, explain to me how we're going to choose these philosopher kings and what happens when they do stuff we don't like.

[McP3000]

we kill them and elect a new philosopher king

[Iskandar]

We elect them, eh. Sounds like democracy.

[McP3000]

it was a joke geddit

[Iskandar]

K.

We don't have to kill our leaders in a democracy. We generally have to kill unelected leaders we don't like though, or depose them some other way.

[McP3000]

but it's a philosopher KING. if he's the smartest person alive running the world then he would obviously know how to get and keep power

[Iskandar]

I'm not running the world though.

[Light Flantastic]

We generally have to kill unelected leaders we don't like though, or depose them some other way.

take out the unelected then its true

[Iskandar]

I agree. We can't vote elected leaders out, but when faced with a dictator we can just ask them to politely step aside.

[McP3000]

mr philosopher king will you just kindly give away all the power in the world we dont like how you brush your teeth with your left hand

[Iskandar]

What are you even talking about.

[1338 h4x0r]

You don't believe you should be fined for spitting gum on the sidewalk?

FINES = THEFT

SIDEWALKS SHOULD BE PRIVATIZED i

[Light Flantastic]

see this is the kind of thing i mean when i say frothing iskandar

[Iskandar]

Except Chris said that, not me.

[1338 h4x0r]

see this is the kind of thing i mean when i say frothing iskandar

FINES R THEFT

LET THE FREE MARKET DECIDE SIDEWALK GUM-SPITTING PENALTIES

RAWN PAWL 2012 i

[Light Flantastic]

i think ron paul will be dead by 2012

he has a son named after the great one though

[Iskandar]

Let the market decide who's elected.

[Light Flantastic]

that is what we do already

[Iskandar]

No because the muds have the vote. If we let the market determine the price of ballots, they wouldn't be able to afford it.

[Light Flantastic]

that sounds a bit racist iskandar

[Iskandar]

Nonsense. I just happen to be a young white male on the internet. Libertarianism came naturally to me.

[Light Flantastic]

it would seem that individualism is the antithesis of racism by its nature

[Iskandar]

Now you're paraphrasing Dr. Paul.

On the contrary, user Light Flantastic, there is a lot of racist thought that chimes well with Social Darwinism.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://i26.tinypic.com/33e4cao.png

[Light Flantastic]

dr paul was quoting the great one you are misattributing that idea

[guitarded_chuck]

socialism
socialism
socialism

[iamtherobots]

That's every country.

MERICA IS FREE AS DEY COME

fool

[Iskandar]

I don't really know what you're talking about.

If this is your attempt at being a libertarian troll, you're pretty bad at it.

[McP3000]

Now you're paraphrasing Dr. Paul.

On the contrary, user Light Flantastic, there is a lot of racist thought that chimes well with Social Darwinism.
So now we've sunk as low to say that being libertarian means you are inherently racist.

cute

[Against Miik!]

I don't see how social darwinism can inherently be racist.

Also, I like democracy, but most people are too dumb to live under it. Most the "they tirk errr jobsss" type people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brj2UkUPjCI

lol

[Iskandar]

It's not but Social Darwinism and racism are perfectly compatible.

Besides that, both are completely bogus ideas with no empirical foundation.
Most the "they tirk errr jobsss" type peopleHow many people are there like that though, realistically.

First person to say "come to America and you'll see them" gets a weeklong ban.

[Iskandar]

So now we've sunk as low to say that being libertarian means you are inherently racist.

cuteThat actually isn't what I said at all but it's interesting how your mind jumped to that conclusion.

[Against Miik!]

I don't know how many people have actually uttered that phrase, but quite a few border on that level of intelligence.

A lot of people just want to make an honest living, and don't bother anyone, thinking they know about politics and issues when they don't, but that doesn't mean they are capable of self determination. Remember, Sarah Palin was a few percentage points and a heartbeat from being the most powerful person in the world, all thanks to this wonderful thing we call democracy.

Also, yeah, social darwinism and racism are compatible, but definitely aren't synonymous. I'm trying to think of a good metaphor, not that its needed.

[Iskandar]

You mean John McCain was.

[Against Miik!]

He was, but I added the heartbeat part for Sarah Palin. No way does John Mccain stay sane for 4 more years (rhyme)

[Iskandar]

You mean alive.

As well Sarah Palin appealed to a lot of idiots but it's not my fault your country has so many idiots. Americans have this thing about treating their own country like it's the only democracy ever.

[Against Miik!]

Yeah I meant to say "alive much less sane".

And I hope Sarah Palin or an equivalent wins the presidency one of these days. Honestly, the US will go to hell in hand basket eventually (inevitable), and they would be the most entertaining way for it to happen.

[TerranYouApart]

i think people like to see themselves in their leader. (average joe)

which probably isn't a good case.

but i'd make the best president there ever was..

[Against Miik!]

I wish we would get over this "leader we can relate too thing". I don't want to be able to have a drink with my president. I want them to be elite as ****

[TerranYouApart]

okay well start your campaign now

[Against Miik!]

They should be way more elite than myself. Like Amit level.

[Iskandar]

Obama is brown, so.

[snorfledumpkins]

I'm not reading any of your guys' arguments or points because I don't want to go through 7 pages, but I'm still going to chime in.

I think Democracy is idealistically good, in the way that everyone gets their voice heard and it's completely fair. However, in real life it can't work very well, many people are stupid, uninformed, and look at the small scale effects of what they're voting for. Representatives are necessary so that they can see what the people want, try to get it for them, and it can be challenged and argued in congress to find what's hopefully best for the country. That ther is why a republic is reel gud.

[McP3000]

That actually isn't what I said at all but it's interesting how your mind jumped to that conclusion.
you can insinuate something without actually saying it

[die of starvation]

libertarians are all coincidentally racist not inherently racist