Hey! I actually agree with Libertarians on something!

[Det_Nosnip]

Although their views on economics and the role of government are often laughable, I do agree with the Libertarian party on a number of social issues, namely:

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libertarian_Party_Immigration.htm

Discuss ideas that you agree with that groups you normally disagree with happen to hold.

[Light Flantastic]

what do you take issue with economically

[misterfitch]

oh no :(

[Light Flantastic]

well he abandoned his thread awfully quickly

[misterfitch]

he probably changed his mind about disagreeing with libertarians economically.

[Light Flantastic]

another convert under my belt

[cobert]

I'm in the middle of writing a huge essay about socialism, and in one part I'm trying to explain how left-anarchism is an unachievable utopia, where I cite Ayn Rand on her idea that beauracracies are difficult to take down.

[Det_Nosnip]

well he abandoned his thread awfully quickly

Jeez...some people have lives. :p

Libertarian free market fundamentalism and calls for an abandonment of the social-security net are recipes for disaster. But let's focus on what you guys got right!

[Light Flantastic]

where to start where to start

why do you think its ok to steal

[McP3000]

yes

[Iskandar]

Although their views on economics and the role of government are often laughable, I do agree with the Libertarian party on a number of social issuesToo bad these are superficial window dressing for their real agenda.

[Light Flantastic]

iskandar has no real arguments so he always resorts to smearing libertarians with some weird statement about how they're all gay hating racists or something

[McP3000]

Too bad these are superficial window dressing for their real agenda.
haha and what is that,

TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD?

[Light Flantastic]

what else does he always say

something about how all libertarians are just neocons pretending to like freedom

but really they dont because they are socially conservative in secret

[Benzum]

they basically hate all authority

[Light Flantastic]

apart from dollar bills

no i mean gold backed reserve certificates

[Benzum]

certificates of power

power that you wish you had

[Light Flantastic]

im going to buy you

[Iskandar]

haha and what is that,

TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD?Nothing less than the complete and utter destruction of the commie-Nazi welfare state.

And reinstating child labour.

I can see why this appeals to sexually frustrated young white males with a penchant for badly written sci-fi novels.

[Benzum]

im going to buy you

keep dreamin'

[Light Flantastic]

statists get so mad when someone disagrees with them its weird

ironically especially them tolerant liberal types

[Iskandar]

Chad has no real arguments so he always resorts to smearing liberals with some weird statement about how they're all freedom hating statists or something.

[Light Flantastic]

yeah but my remarks are related to the topic you and chris are always frothing personal attacks for some reason calm down you'll give yourself an ulcer

[Iskandar]

I'm cold as ice baby.

I'm about as worked up as a fervent Libertarian Party supporter at a stump speech during election season.

[beso negro]

where to start where to start

why do you think its ok to steal

once he gets a real job he will understand

it's amazing how a $2,000 paycheck can turn into a $1,500 paycheck after the government gets it's hands on it

[griftadan]

statists get so mad when someone disagrees with them its weird

ironically especially them tolerant liberal types

i'm really liking this new satire

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

once he gets a real job he will understand

it's amazing how a $2,000 paycheck can turn into a $1,500 paycheck after the government gets it's hands on it

yeah but the gov't (theoretically) spends the money on more important things than you would spend it on

[beso negro]

oh you mean like funding the drug war and killing arabs?

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

(theoretically)

When was the last time you used "your money" to fix a road

[McP3000]

what he choses to spend his money on is his choice

i thought liberals were all about choice

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

yeah let's let infrastructure crumble in the name of "choice" and "freedom" that sounds awesome

[gregulus]

statists get so mad when someone disagrees with them its weird

ironically especially them tolerant liberal types

Chad has no real arguments so he always resorts to smearing liberals with some weird statement about how they're all freedom hating statists or something.

Very constructive posts.

[McP3000]

yeah they're both hypocrits when they talk to each other whats new

[Iskandar]

once he gets a real job he will understand

it's amazing how a $2,000 paycheck can turn into a $1,500 paycheck after the government gets it's hands on itIt's called taxes. They've been around for a while. You should look them up on Wikipedia.
oh you mean like funding the drug war and killing arabs?These are the only two things a government can do, ever.

[McP3000]

oh theres more pleasantries the government funds do you want us to list it

[Iskandar]

oh theres more pleasantries the government funds do you want us to list itYours or mine.

[McP3000]

i dont know what Canada funds outside of Mounties and Welfare/Healthcare

[Iskandar]

i dont know what Canada funds outside of Mounties and Welfare/HealthcareAll good things.

It's a dumb argument because government funds lots of bad stuff and lots of good stuff and which is which depends entirely on your point of view. Aside from that, I can name lots of bad stuff which private business funds but it's sort of irrelevant.

[McP3000]

yes because private businesses don't pretend to work for the people and not everyone has to pay to them a portion of their income

[Iskandar]

yes because private businesses don't pretend to work for the people and not everyone has to pay to them a portion of their incomePrivate business isn't accountable to anyone but their shareholders.

Or they would be if Big Gummint didn't assert itself.
not everyone has to pay to them a portion of their income
This is irrelevant btw.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

honestly I agree with libertarians/republicans that a lot of gov't spending is probably wasteful

I made 8.35 an hour sitting on my *** at a public pool today, that's a waste of tax dollars, sure

I don't think anyone ever said the government has never wastefully spent

[McP3000]

Private business isn't accountable to anyone but their shareholders.

Or they would be if Big Gummint didn't assert itself.
This is irrelevant btw.
private corporations love to pay dividends to their shareholders otherwise they would get a bad reputation and their stock prices would plummet.

big government has little to do with it

[Iskandar]

private corporations love to pay dividends to their shareholders otherwise they would get a bad reputation and their stock prices would plummet.

big government has little to do with itIt's cute you think it's this simple in real life.

Have you considered the problems with transparency created by multinational firms with more money than God and a plethora of offshore bank accounts.

[TerranYouApart]

dude he's a libertarian

[no]

[BridgeToSolace]

When was the last time you used "your money" to fix a road

When's the last time the government used my money to fix a road?

[die of starvation]

the government makes modern life possible so that makes their 'stealing' ok

i agree with fundamentalist christians that fundamentalist muslims are bad

[Light Flantastic]

(theoretically)

When was the last time you used "your money" to fix a road
Stupid argument. I don't pay for these things because I'm already paying for them (through no choice of my own) in taxes. It would be stupid to double-pay. I already do for healthcare but that's so I don't die, which is important, obviously.

[BridgeToSolace]

Stupid argument. I don't pay for these things because I'm already paying for them (through no choice of my own) in taxes. It would be stupid to double-pay. I already do for healthcare but that's so I don't die, which is important, obviously.

It's not a stupid 'argument' because it's not a literal question. Of course you haven't directly paid for roads.

It's more making the point "Government does basic things that we don't think about" and "wud u relly pay for t3h roads if teh gubberment wasn't?"

Which is actually valid. Perhaps misguided, but valid from an argumentative perspective.

[Light Flantastic]

I'm pretty sure I'd pay for roads if the government wasn't since I need to go places and I need to buy things which come to me on roads, the producers of which would inevitably therefore also pay for roads and since I'm paying them I'd be indirectly paying for roads even if I weren't using them myself. Unless we're to assume that people don't want these things unless the government reminds them that they do. Which would be stupid.

But it's also stupid because if government disappeared and I didn't pay for roads that'd mean I don't want them and therefore there's not even a problem.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

but dude if we had to buy roads ourselves our $2000 paycheck might turn into $1500

people are such crooks

[Light Flantastic]

I think you're missing the glaring point that one is voluntary and the other is not.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

but free will doesn't exist anyway so who cares

[Light Flantastic]

You're being evasive because you were wrong.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

no nothing is voluntary in the absence of free will, so spending your own money is only hypothetically voluntary

"freedom" to me means the same thing as it means to most americans: raising a flag, saying things like "I hope the troops come home okay," and watching fireworks

[Light Flantastic]

Still being evasive, I could cop out of every argument on this forum by saying we don't even know whats real, man, but that would be dumb.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

would you rather me say "the government is probably more efficient at infrastructure repair because that's part of their job, whilst the people lack sufficient organization/willingness to pool funds to contract jobs"

[Light Flantastic]

Say it if you like but it's incorrect.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

prove it

[Light Flantastic]

Prove what, that government is less efficient than private entities in competition with each other?

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

in the specific area of repairing public infrastructure, yes

[Light Flantastic]

I don't see how the specificity matters.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

because the people are obviously better suited to buy things like food themselves

[Light Flantastic]

You're not making sense. It's basic economics that entities in competition are more efficient. Government has no magical ability to repair roads any better than a private company does.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

Government generally contracts private companies

[Light Flantastic]

Government generally contracts private companies

So you concede private companies can repair roads just fine. Cool.

[Iskandar]

Government has the ultimate in economies of scale.

But who gives a damn if they subcontract out services to someone who can do them better.
I think you're missing the glaring point that one is voluntary and the other is not.Since you're going to be paying either way, the difference seems rather academic.

[die of starvation]

the involuntary nature of the government is an asset, compelling conformity is essential to modern life
you can't leave decisions that affect the social fabric up to the whims of individuals

[Light Flantastic]

Government has the ultimate in economies of scale.
Economies of scale are irrelevant for the reasons I gave you in the other thread.

But who gives a damn if they subcontract out services to someone who can do them better.Nobody. What he originally said was that private roads are unfeasible because the government is imbued with some special ability to repair roads that a private company doesn't have. Then he said no no no the government contracts private companies, so he contradicted himself.

[Light Flantastic]

you can't leave decisions that affect the social fabric up to the whims of individuals

What decisions can a single individual make that would affect society on any meaningful scale.

There wasn't even an argument against government in this thread it was about taxation.

[Iskandar]

What decisions can a single individual make that would affect society on any meaningful scale.No individual has power remotely comparable to government.

Granted that the executive branch is composed of individuals.

[Light Flantastic]

no individual has power remotely comparable to government.

there wasn't even an argument against government in this thread

   

[die of starvation]

What decisions can a single individual make that would affect society on any meaningful scale.

most or many individuals making self interested decisions would have all manner of effects
for example a group of people could decide that they never wanted roads or airports and would rather live in isolation so they would be allowed to deteriorate, certain areas would become isolated and national cohesion would be threatened. overall development and standard of living in the area would decline and the whole planet would be hurt by the lost production


There wasn't even an argument against government in this thread it was about taxation.
without even arguing funding; how can it not be ok for the government to 'steal' but ok for them to coerce you otherwise?

[Light Flantastic]

most or many individuals making self interested decisions would have all manner of effects
for example a group of people could decide that they never wanted roads or airports and would rather live in isolation so they would be allowed to deteriorate, certain areas would become isolated and national cohesion would be threatened. overall development and standard of living in the area would decline and the whole planet would be hurt by the lost production
that seems tenuous, i doubt there are enough people who dont want to be part of modern society for that to happen

without even arguing funding; how can it not be ok for the government to 'steal' but ok for them to coerce you otherwise?
they can coerce to prevent you from coercing

[sweboy]

What decisions can a single individual make that would affect society on any meaningful scale.


Which amounts of antibiotics to use - the more antiobiotics are used, the more resistant bacteria become to them thus making them more dangerous for everyone over the long them.

[BridgeToSolace]

Prove what, that government is less efficient than private entities in competition with each other?

There's more to a road than who can do it for the least amount of money. It's about a consistency and foresight.

For example, a large portion of Boston's roads are just based on cattle paths because they were made before there was a substantial gubberment. The newer areas are based on a grid formation that makes it significantly easier to navigate. You think individuals would magically have had the foresight and desire to pay for a logical and consistent road, or would the chaotic sprawl have just continued?

Since there's no such thing as true competition on a large scale, I'd rather be the government's bitch than a company's bitch. You know, a group that at least TRIES to be moral rather than a group that just wants money. I group that I have some minute pull in rather than one I have no control over.

"Efficiency" is overrated.

[Light Flantastic]

Which amounts of antibiotics to use - the more antiobiotics are used, the more resistant bacteria become to them thus making them more dangerous for everyone over the long them.

i don't see how that affects the fabric of society though i mean maybe it affects society in that it might kill off a lot of people but i don't think it'd change the nature of society itself or threaten our modern lifestyle

[Light Flantastic]

There's more to a road than who can do it for the least amount of money. It's about a consistency and foresight.

"Efficiency" is overrated.
efficiency is the ability to provide the same service at a lower cost


For example, a large portion of Boston's roads are just based on cattle paths because they were made before there was a substantial gubberment. The newer areas are based on a grid formation that makes it significantly easier to navigate. You think individuals would magically have had the foresight and desire to pay for a logical and consistent road, or would the chaotic sprawl have just continued?because it was computers and magical robots that planned those modern roads built by government

Since there's no such thing as true competition on a large scale, I'd rather be the government's bitch than a company's bitch. You know, a group that at least TRIES to be moral rather than a group that just wants money. I group that I have some minute pull in rather than one I have no control over.yeah i mean your single vote holds more power than making the choice to switch companies

[Iskandar]

Switching governments is far more important on a macro level than switching companies.

[Light Flantastic]

maybe if you actually had enough influence as an individual to bring an independent party to power or something

but switching companies is 100% effective

[Iskandar]

Independent parties are useless and never win for a reason.

I don't know if you're trying to imply that the major parties are all the same 'cause they're really not. Maybe in your crappy country.

[Light Flantastic]

they're all the same in the way they build roads which is all that matters in this situation since thats what we want to change

[Iskandar]

If they're all the same, why bother switching.

[Light Flantastic]

well yeah i doubt you'd have any real reason to switch with a private road company either but at least you're more likely to have that option in the hypothetical situation that was presented

[Iskandar]

Okay.

[Light Flantastic]

http://books.google.com/books?id=sYAxKrpSjOsC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&source=bl&ots=-R0YqAgb9_&sig=WLl0bKLoKBlWY6Gg9MONU_epYcI&hl=en&ei=qsBXSoT3DaehjAeW_8HNDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

because i know how much you like sweden

[Iskandar]

Great.

[Light Flantastic]

its ok you can admit your socialist paradise implemented libertarian principles and it worked i know it hurts

[Iskandar]

Sweden is one of the most liberal societies on earth so I don't really know why you're doing this.

[Light Flantastic]

depends what you mean by liberal but thats irrelevant to private roads working there

[Iskandar]

K.

Libertarian principles work all the time so you're arguing to an empty room.

[McP3000]

K.

Libertarian principles work all the time so you're arguing to an empty room.
quoted for future generations

[Light Flantastic]

you've told me private roads cant work in the past iskandar i just find it ironic that of all places theres a shining example in sweden though

[Iskandar]

quoted for future generationsWhy.

Libertarian ideas can work. It's libertarianism does not work.

you've told me private roads cant work in the past iskandar i find it ironic that of all places the shining example is sweden thoughI don't think I did say they couldn't work but that they wouldn't be any better than public roads.

[Light Flantastic]

you can see what happens if libertarianism is taken too far - just look at somalia

[McP3000]

Why.

Libertarian ideas can work. It's libertarianism does not work.
socialist ideas can work. it's socialism does not work.

[Light Flantastic]

I don't think I did say they couldn't work but that they wouldn't be any better than public roads.

well i gave you something nice to read that says they are i think you're being mighty impolite by not reading it

[Iskandar]

you can see what happens if libertarianism is taken too far - just look at somaliaThat's not libertarianism but that does show what happens when the state is too weak.
socialist ideas can work. it's socialism does not work.Yeah exactly what's your point.

No one ideology has all the answers and anyone who thinks so is probably an idiot.

[die of starvation]

that seems tenuous, i doubt there are enough people who dont want to be part of modern society for that to happen

not in america or other decent countries, thanks to the strong coercive government effectively enforcing conformity but weaker governments have seen substantial anti-modernist movements among indigenous populations, tribals, warlords, religious extremists and whatnot


they can coerce to prevent you from coercing
why draw the line there

[iamtherobots]

you've told me private roads cant work in the past iskandar

:lol: are you serious?

[Iskandar]

Read the thread dammit.

[Light Flantastic]

not in america or other decent countries, thanks to the strong coercive government effectively enforcing conformity but weaker governments have seen substantial anti-modernist movements among indigenous populations, tribals, warlords, religious extremists and whatnot
yeah and those societies arent ready for extremely limited government perhaps

but westerners have already had the good **** modernizing has to offer i doubt that many of them would want to give it up after experiencing it


why draw the line there
because that minimizes the amount of negative coercion overall it would seem to be an axiomatically beneficial thing to do

:lol: are you serious?
ya he has definitely said it for sure

[Sideshown Boob]

chad is right just saying

[Iskandar]

There's just no reasoning with the hive mind of internet libertarians.

[Light Flantastic]

you just want to be in the club

[Det_Nosnip]

I like how I started a thread with the premise of finding common ground with people you disagree with, and within half a page it descended into pointless squabbling and name-calling. Nice, guys. :rolleyes:

[iamtherobots]

There's just no reasoning with the hive mind of internet libertarians.

There is nothing but reason.

[Light Flantastic]

I like how I started a thread with the premise of finding common ground with people you disagree with, and within half a page it descended into pointless squabbling and name-calling. Nice, guys. :rolleyes:

we did find common ground we found out that private roads are mega awesome

[iamtherobots]

Hey everybody look up PennDOT.

This is how awesome public roads are!!!!

[Light Flantastic]

sounds lame

[iamtherobots]

Pennsylvania roads are horrible.

Potholes everywhere, or if they fix a pothole it's just covered up half-assedly and completely unevenly with tar.

[iamtherobots]

http://kdka.com/safedrivers/bad.roads.Overdrive.2.386474.html
Magazine: Pa. Has Second Worst Roads In U.S.
Click here to see the full Overdrive Magazine story.
PITTSBURGH (KDKA) ―

[Click to zoom.] Click to enlarge
1 of 1

AP

Close

numSlides of totalImages
A trucking industry magazine ranks Pennsylvania as having the second worst roads in the U.S.

Overdrive Magazine says Louisiana has the worst roads, followed by Pennsylvania, Missouri, Arkansas and Michigan.

The Magazine polls more than 700 truck drivers across the nation each year asking them to rate the nation's roads, state by state.

The survey includes opinion about the quality of the roads, the smoothness of the surface, road markings, construction detour availability and more.

Public roads ftw.

[Light Flantastic]

you better smash the state in a hurry

[1338 h4x0r]

Hey everybody look up PennDOT.

This is how awesome public roads are!!!!

What about svenska roads

[iamtherobots]

you better smash the state in a hurry

I'm going to **** on my congressman's chest.

[1338 h4x0r]

o/ o/ o/

[Light Flantastic]

What about svenska roads

what about them

[1338 h4x0r]

they're pretty good not sure if you knew

I guess they'd be even BETTER without Big Gummt

[Light Flantastic]

they're pretty good not sure if you knew

I guess they'd be even BETTER without Big Gummt

you know if you read the thread you'd find out why this post is rather amusing

[1338 h4x0r]

nah I didn't bother

[Light Flantastic]

let me summarize

me: hey iskandar did you know most of the roads in sweden are privately owned and super efficient and stuff because of it
iskandar: okay

[some posts later]

you: ya well what about roads in sweden they are all socialist to the max and if you havent noticed they're pretty good

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.seriforum.org/skrivutprojektaktuellt.asp?ID=2


The Swedish road network totals about 420,000 km (261,000 miles). Two thirds of this consist of private roads, primarily unpaved forestry roads. Most private roads are open for use by the general public. The total length of State-owned roads is 98,000 km (61,000 miles), while municipal road and street networks total about 40,000 km (25,000 miles).

:lol:

And the Vägverket osv still oversee the whole of the road system including private roads

derp

[Light Flantastic]

you're trying to dodge the point

but i will save this quote for later use

[private roads; ] they're pretty good not sure if you knew

[misterfitch]

****ing assholes. i hope this ****ing thread catches on fire.

[1338 h4x0r]

you're trying to dodge the point

but i will save this quote for later use

The most heavily trafficked roads in Sweden are public

[Light Flantastic]

irrelevant to whether the private road system works or not

[TerranYouApart]

the roads in texas are great. like we have ****ing awesome roads. the widest lanes in the USA. and most of our highways are concrete. sup? (we don't pay state income tax either)

[1338 h4x0r]

Chad, if you want to tout the successes of the private road system, you'll have to cite more than low-traffic ****ing dirt paths out in the woods in Sweden which are still overseen by the gummt road administration

[Iskandar]

I'd like to see how well the US interstate system could be privatized.
The entire system, as of 2006, has a total length of 46,876 miles (75,440 km), making it both the largest highway system in the world and the largest public works project in history.
Interesting.

[TerranYouApart]

1338, if you want to save some of your dignity you would have stopped posting two posts ago. everyone knows 100% private roads aren't feasible. upkeep would just not happen and they would all crumble.

[Light Flantastic]

Chad, if you want to tout the successes of the private road system, you'll have to cite more than low-traffic ****ing dirt paths out in the woods in Sweden which are still overseen by the gummt road administration

um if you even glance at those statistics its entirely possible that the majority of all roads in sweden are dirt paths because of their expansiveness in rural areas

but there are plenty of paved roads and PRAs that represent thousands of homes a piece

as for the overseeing, thats just regulation, which i also disagree with, but it doesnt take away from the fact that they are privately owned and maintained for the most part - and twice as cost efficient as a result

[TerranYouApart]

when does it become "worth it" to fix a road?

when it is impassible, no?

when does a road start sucking?

long before it is impassable.

reality, bro. stop arguing from ideology for once, can you?

[Light Flantastic]

yeah man i only fix my house when its uninhabitable too

[TerranYouApart]

a road has 1 facet. the surface.

a house has a zillion. the walls, the floor, the ceiling, appliances doors ETCETERA.

try again

[1338 h4x0r]

um if you even glance at those statistics its entirely possible that the majority of all roads in sweden are dirt paths because of their expansiveness in rural areas

They are

But most of these dirt roads are rarely trafficked and used mainly for forestry, so you aren't making a good argument at all

You seem to be under the impression that the population of Sweden is pretty evenly spread out over the country, and if that's the case, you're a bigger fool than I thought

(And I already thought you were a pretty substantial fool.)

[TerranYouApart]

what kind of idiot isn't completely familiar with the population density of sweden?? i mean seriously. like you idiot. seriously

[Iskandar]

I seriously doubt the roads in Stockholm, Malmö and Göteborg are dirt paths.

Nor that the forestry roads in northern Sweden receive ten times as much heavy traffic.
what kind of idiot isn't completely familiar with the population density of sweden?? i mean seriously. like you idiot. seriouslyOne glance at a map will tell you.

[Light Flantastic]

a road has 1 facet. the surface.

a house has a zillion. the walls, the floor, the ceiling, appliances doors ETCETERA.

try again

how is that even related to anything

nobody will take care of a piece of property better than its owner

But most of these dirt roads are rarely trafficked and used mainly for forestry, so you aren't making a good argument at all

im not talking about the dirt roads, just because dirt roads make up the majority of privately owned roads doesnt mean there arent plenty of paved higher volume roads that are working just as well under private ownership

[1338 h4x0r]

@ Terran He lives in Europe; he should be at least vaguely familiar with the fact that Sweden's population is pretty much concentrated in a few cities

im not talking about the dirt roads, just because dirt roads make up the majority of privately owned roads doesnt mean there arent plenty of paved higher volume roads that are working just as well under private ownership

Where

[Light Flantastic]

One glance at a map will tell you.i dont think thats the kind of thing maps tell you

[TerranYouApart]

how is that even related to anything

nobody will take care of a piece of property better than its owner


because a pothole in a road isn't the same as a hole in your roof. how can you be so dense?

have you ever worked for a boss who was really cheap and cut corners everywhere to save money?

what makes you think road owners would be different?

then what happens when someone's like, man route 288 sucks and joe won't fix it and we can't do anything about it, let's just build a road right next to it that's better. how does that situation work?

(the free market decides and everyone uses the good road with a shitty empty road right next to it) (the pinnacle of efficiency huh? :rolleyes:)

[1338 h4x0r]

@ chad

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/sweden_pop_1973.jpg

durr hurr

[Iskandar]

This map certainly does.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/images/dynamic/ew/v08n39/040923_nvfig4.gif

[Light Flantastic]

because a pothole in a road isn't the same as a hole in your roof. how can you be so dense?
pretty sure it is the same as in its detrimental to me if im running a tolled road for example and people are choosing not to use it

have you ever worked for a boss who was really cheap and cut corners everywhere to save money?hint: your boss at burger king doesnt actually own burger king

then what happens when someone's like, man route 288 sucks and joe won't fix it and we can't do anything about it, let's just build a road right next to it that's better. how does that situation work?
there are already multiple routes to any one destination

[Light Flantastic]

yes i know about population charts and i did know about the population of sweden before i was being intentionally dense about the maps thing calm down

[TerranYouApart]

i'd also like to see a city that was made with all private roads. like one rich guy builds a road from his house to his job and another guy does the same, it would look worse than the spider web that is Rome (the city). lol wake up chad, wake up

[Light Flantastic]

yeah because buying land in a straight line through a city is really feasible for your personal road to work

[Iskandar]

yes i know about population charts and i did know about the population of sweden before i was being intentionally dense about the maps thing calm downSo now prove that the road system in Stockholm and Malmö can be managed just as well as a few remote logging routes.

[TerranYouApart]

pretty sure it is the same as in its detrimental to me if im running a tolled road for example and people are choosing not to use it
okay, so people have to pay to use these private roads. cool just like i pay to use the centrally planned roads here.


hint: your boss at burger king doesnt actually own burger king

no but he gets a bonus when he cuts costs. douche.

there are already multiple routes to any one destination
thank you government, for laying the infrastructure for chad's dream society?

i've never actually had a discussion with you, and i never will again. you are so disconnected from reality it's just a mind **** in itself before i can even respond.

[Light Flantastic]

So now prove that the road system in Stockholm and Malmö can be managed just as well as a few remote logging routes.

well its just scaling the principles are the same

but there are plenty of super high volume toll roads that work just fine i dont see any reasonable barrier in extending that

[Iskandar]

No, it's not the same. The road system in a major city is infinitely more complex with far heavier traffic, more careful planning needed, more frequent repairs and more expensive upkeep in general.

[Light Flantastic]

okay, so people have to pay to use these private roads. cool just like i pay to use the centrally planned roads here.
no one is voluntary thats an important point

no but he gets a bonus when he cuts costs. douche.
umm he still doesnt own it which means he doesnt have the ownership incentive for upkeep being the point



i've never actually had a discussion with you, and i never will again. you are so disconnected from reality it's just a mind **** in itself before i can even respond.
idk your responses are pretty disjointed but ok

[TerranYouApart]

using roads isn't a voluntary thing; it is necessary.

the owner is the 'boss' i was referring too but thank you for your semantics argument

and nice dodge, btw.

[Light Flantastic]

No, it's not the same. The road system in a major city is infinitely more complex with far heavier traffic, more careful planning needed, more frequent repairs and more expensive upkeep in general.

i told you, it scales

just because costs increase doesnt mean the premise changes

the PRA members would be businesses, shops, etc; they can pay more

[Light Flantastic]

using roads isn't a voluntary thing; it is necessary.
voluntarily paying for them in proportion to your usage is different than having the government take your money regardless

[Iskandar]

i told you, it scales

just because costs increase doesnt mean the premise changes

the PRA members would be businesses, shops, etc; they can pay more
I told you that planning is completely different due to the complexities of a cityscape and far heavier traffic. How do private contractors work around this? The state owns all the roads; they can plan as they see fit.

[TerranYouApart]

voluntarily paying for them in proportion to your usage is different than having the government take your money regardless

well i am all for a consumption tax. but is all the bureaucracy that is added by this idea even worth it? every single road a toll road? dude... have you ever used a toll road?

once again, in principle it makes sense, but it doesn't ****ing apply to our reality dude.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont know in europe we have pretty modern toll roads they make no difference to ease of use

[TerranYouApart]

yeah i guess all those cameras and paperwork and tolltags are free in europe. cool

[Light Flantastic]

you're not making sense

[TerranYouApart]

okay cameras, toll booths and paperwork are not conducive to efficiency when all a road is for is transportation.

[Light Flantastic]

like i said there are toll systems that dont inhibit ease of use

you drive through without stopping like its a normal road

at the end of the month you get a bill like you do for electric or something

[TerranYouApart]

paperwork, cameras, and people to take care of the paperwork are not necessary for a centrally planned road.

that's the third time i've said this.

[Light Flantastic]

yeah the government just builds roads on a whim and lets anything use them, no paperwork involved, no licensing, no speed cameras, no traffic cops, none of that

even if that were so i fail to see how its relevant to anything

you're still not making sense

[TerranYouApart]

i bet anyone else who's just a little less dense than you understands what i'm saying.

paying every time you use a road isn't as efficient as everyone paying into a central fund that plans an efficient network.

have you ever read about the united states interstate system? maybe you should. i'm done with you.

[McP3000]

TerranYouApart, you're so wise. Teach me.

[1338 h4x0r]

Actually the US highway system is pretty ****ing inefficient as it isn't scale-free

[TerranYouApart]

TerranYouApart, you're so wise. Teach me.

he who speaks softest hears best

1338, that's a nice opinion, but try to consider it was engineered 60 years ago.

but don't worry, we know you're sooooo much smarter than all those dumb engineers.

[1338 h4x0r]

The scientist Alberto-Laszlo Barabási was probably the first to point this out that the US highway system sucks for this reason

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale-free_network

Read

[TerranYouApart]

The scientist Alberto-Laszlo Barabási was the first to point this out that the US highway system sucks for this reason

yeah man and in 60 years the best computer you can buy today will suck *** too.

i already tried to read that article the first three times you whored scale free networks in other threads and really i don't care. :)

[1338 h4x0r]

lol the US highway system sucks

In the greater Atlanta area alone, the sum of all daily commutes would easily reach the sun

A good highway system should be simple and not doing a lot of work

Canada is a better example

[TerranYouApart]

quit trolling. the u.s. highway system was genius. granted the germans invented the overpass and exit systems but it was groundbreaking and the same principles are still in use today in other country's freeway systems.

[1338 h4x0r]

In terms of how we (usually) keep together the huge pile of **** we have now, the US highway system is pretty incredible, but it's also extremely wasteful and dumb from an engineering perspective

Keep It Simple Stupid

[TerranYouApart]

... you've yet to explain how it is wasteful and dumb. it connects every major city in our country without you ever having to stop (in theory).

how do you make it simpler without making it less effective? (it was developed for national security if you didn't know. cool fact. all interstate highways within 150 miles of our borders are 10 feet thick so they can support tanks.)

[Iskandar]

It may have serious designs flaws (I wouldn't know, I'm not an engineer) but it is very effective.

[TerranYouApart]

one major flaw is that the roads are dead straight for miles on end. this is proven to increase driver drowsiness and in turn crashes. In germany all autobahns have consistent but wide turns or oscillations in them to keep the driver's attention.

cars and highways and airplanes have always fascinated me i could go on all night.

[1338 h4x0r]

... you've yet to explain how it is wasteful and dumb. it connects every major city in our country without you ever having to stop (in theory).

Redesigning the US highway system around a scale-free model would increase reliability (provided the major hubs were well taken care of) and probably diminish waste.

I'd have to ask a mathematician about this, but since scale-free networks tend to look more orderly, "tree-like" (if not actually trees by the formal definition) than ****ing piles of spaghetti, the introduction of a scale-free highway system would probably save resources in the long run.

(That's a real interesting question, actually.)

[TerranYouApart]

(That's a real interesting question, actually.)

funny you always bring in your pseudo intellectual ideas yet you don't even know how they apply to reality.

and your point about atlanta has nothing to do with the interstate system. unfortunately for you i've lived there half of my life and i know damn well that it is not the road's fault that commutes there take an hour. it is because the only place you can find a desk job is in downtown and the population of Atlanta itself has barely eclipsed 400,000 while the metroplex is one of the largest in the states.

urban sprawl; i'd link you to the wikipedia article, but you're such a genius i know you already know what that is. ;)

[1338 h4x0r]

funny you always bring in your pseudo intellectual ideas yet you don't even know how they apply to reality.

I told you one definite advantage of restructuring the highway system and speculated about another, honestly admitting that I didn't know it for sure.

What the **** is with this personal attack ****, huh?

and your point about atlanta has nothing to do with the interstate system.

Atlanta highway system engenders sprawl:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Arg-DU8tQF8C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=atlanta+sprawl+highways&source=bl&ots=nNmLHYqjxF&sig=PR9u6lfNGNyzKUz4FaWNvV_Dvvg&hl=en&ei=BjZYSufpOoqEtwfEkcXdCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

This isn't just in Atlanta either, there are whole books about the phenomenon:

http://www.amazon.com/Twentieth-Century-Sprawl-Reshaping-Landscape/dp/0195141415

dai-uh, dai-uh, dai-uh, which way did 'ee go, George, which way did 'ee go?

[McP3000]

he who speaks softest hears best
thats actually a good quote. props

[1338 h4x0r]

thats actually a good quote. props

Personally I think this is a good quote from TerranYouApart

"DAI-UH DAI-UH DAI-UH WHY DO YA HAFTA BE RIGHT ALL THA TIME, UR A MEANIE"

[TerranYouApart]

Atlanta highway system engenders sprawl:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Arg-DU8tQF8C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=atlanta+sprawl+highways&source=bl&ots=nNmLHYqjxF&sig=PR9u6lfNGNyzKUz4FaWNvV_Dvvg&hl=en&ei=BjZYSufpOoqEtwfEkcXdCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

This isn't just in Atlanta either, there are whole books about the phenomenon:

http://www.amazon.com/Twentieth-Century-Sprawl-Reshaping-Landscape/dp/0195141415

dai-uh, dai-uh, dai-uh, which way did 'ee go, George, which way did 'ee go?

what does that first link you posted have to do with anything??? haha i know all that **** as i was a resident of gwinett and fayette county for 10 years combined. you just google search **** constantly and post it up like you know this stuff. get over yourself dude, we all have the internet.

also, i live in a separate metroplex now with a very similar interstate system (dallas/ft worth) and the congestion here is not nearly on the level of atlanta. keep fishing, stupid.

smokey d, bro, did i make a punctuation error? lol

[TerranYouApart]

thats actually a good quote. props

thanks.

you might be surprised at the number of people that have known me intimately to tell me I am "wise beyond my years". i've been through a lot, and i've seen a lot of things for age 20.

[Smokey D]

Tone it down

[TerranYouApart]

i'm sorry i just think it was hilarious he called me out on personal attacks when he called me stupid first.

i mean, that's funny right? (i'm on #7 as well ;))

[McP3000]

its PNWI all the big dicks are hypocrits

other than smokey d xoxoxox

[Smokey D]

Um, Keep It Simple Stupid is a rule of thumb for design, I don't think it was a personal attack.

other than smokey d xoxoxox

ilu 2

[1338 h4x0r]

you just google search **** constantly and post it up like you know this stuff

No

Regardless, I don't see how that would even be a bad thing. I tend to remember things I Googled (or read about in an encyclopedia, or heard about on news radio, or ...) before. You have to start somewhere, right?

btw are you confirming or denying that the highway system indulges sprawl?

i'm sorry i just think it was hilarious he called me out on personal attacks when he called me stupid first.

When did I call you "stupid"?

Citing the KISS principle is not really the same thing as calling someone "stupid".

Stop taking things so literally.

[TerranYouApart]

sorry, i'm not a fashion design major. seriously, i'm so sorry. so. sorry.

the highway itself was engineered in a brilliant way and whether it indulges sprawl or not has nothing to with the system itself. i can neither confirm nor deny anything dealing with unrelated claims, and as a benefit to the intellectually honest of this forum i will refrain from posting my google searches.

[1338 h4x0r]

the highway itself was engineered in a brilliant way and whether it indulges sprawl or not has nothing to with the system itself

Oh ok, I'm not saying it didn't require brains to build but it is hugely wasteful.

and as a benefit to the intellectually honest of this forum i will refrain from posting my google searches.

There's nothing wrong with using Google.

[TerranYouApart]

Oh ok, I'm not saying it didn't require brains to build but it is hugely wasteful. and you've still not claimed how so except for "it doesn't use scale-free networks" like that means anything.



There's nothing wrong with using Google.

you are so obnoxious with google because you act like you knew all of this stuff and you demean people like me who post from their brain when they get something wrong.

[Smokey D]

Trading jibes will lead to bans, mmk.

[1338 h4x0r]

and you've still not claimed how so except for "it doesn't use scale-free networks" like that means anything.

That has to do with the robustness of the network, and possibly how efficient it is, at least in this case. If you look at the Internet and air traffic system, you'll notice they don't have to cater to sprawl, and so organize themselves robustly and efficiently, not looking like plates of spaghetti.

And there's the other thing, sprawl. Sprawl tends to encourage the construction of more and more highways until they turn into zillion-lane asphalt aortas like in Los Angeles and the traffic STILL doesn't move much faster than a snail at peak hours.

If think we can learn from the example of western Europe, where they tend not to have these issues, what with cities being dense and the abundance of mass transit and all. Having to spend hours a day commuting really isn't cool.

...but upon thinking a smidge further, i suppose it is funny that you care so much about what random people on the internet think of your intellect. honestly i think you're a rather piddly and insecure excuse.

Is there any reason I should indulge personal attacks? Please give me a good reason to do so.

[TerranYouApart]

sorry i'm a sarcastic mf'er but it gets the point across

public transit is a completely different issue from engineering highways. i agree, public transportation in the usa sucks completely hardcore sucks

[1338 h4x0r]

Ideally, the highway system should be kept to a bare minimum. Having a two-ton vehicle for every handful of people (frequently just ONE) is retarded. Look at how many people this system kills every year, especially with all of those on the road (and you see them everyday) who are really not fit to operate these kinds of machines.

sorry i'm a sarcastic mf'er but it gets the point across

No it just cheap rhetoric that pisses people off and doesn't make much of a point

[Light Flantastic]

paying every time you use a road isn't as efficient as everyone paying into a central fund that plans an efficient network.

um

its the same thing

[TerranYouApart]

if it weren't true it'd probably piss you off less ;)

oh, hey chad, it's the same thing now, cool libertarianism and stealing are synonymous terms now sweet

[Light Flantastic]

no you said

paying into a central fund is more efficient

where do you think toll money is going

[TerranYouApart]

tolls are bullshit in the united states because i already pay taxes for roads so i can't even answer that question. i go out of my way to avoid toll roads here.

toll money in your system would go to an individual corporation or business. of which there would be thousands of for individual roads. which all share the same land and destinations.

but i'm done arguing with you about this, i already said that. i understand your point, however, outside of geometry and sudoku, your logic doesn't hold weight.

[1338 h4x0r]

if it weren't true it'd probably piss you off less ;)

I find that falsely ascribing ulterior motives to someone's behavior and then insisting you're right is actually pretty ****ing annoying

[Light Flantastic]

toll money in your system would go to an individual corporation or business. of which there would be thousands of for individual roads. which all share the same land and destinations.


a central corporate fund is still a central fund dummy

[TerranYouApart]

ban this guy please, or at least edit his post :)

a central fund would imply there only exists ONE (1)

[Light Flantastic]

no it implies that its centralized in some way

ps do you think the fed designs and maintains roads or something because no its mostly states

[TerranYouApart]

um states receive road funding from the federal government via income taxes. please dude, you don't know more about this than me, i'm sorry, but you don't. WTF does the fed have to do with anything??? haha and aren't you from GB??? why do you live in a place with a 40% tax rate anyways?

since i'm getting a real kick out of this, let's keep it going.

and centralized means 1. central government is one single government. central planning is a single plan. central is the center, a compromise of all ideas, into 1 reality.

[Light Flantastic]

um states get funding but the federal government doesnt plan or maintain anything which is what you were saying

a central fund that plans an efficient network.



and idk tax rates are lower here for certain things and avoidance is pretty easy

[TerranYouApart]

the interstate system is named after dwight ****ing eisenhower. are you aware who that man was and his position in the government?

[Light Flantastic]

was his name dwight interstate eisenhower

[TerranYouApart]

100% privatized roads are a pipe dream. every country knows this, and i know you wish you could bend reality to fit this into your ideology but such is not the case.

some things need to be delegated to the central government. there isn't a person in this country who has never used a road either directly or indirectly so being taxed for it is fair, maybe not perfectly fair, but life (reality) isn't fair.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont know what the point in arguing with someone who seems to be making an effort to insert a fallacy in every post is

stick to envying your boss at mcdonalds

[TerranYouApart]

i dont know what the point in arguing with someone who seems to be making an effort to insert a fallacy in every post is
i win

stick to envying your boss at mcdonalds

burger king*

[Light Flantastic]

nah you're just not making any sense ill wait for someone else to come up with a real point

but if you want to think you won thats cool man

[TerranYouApart]

all your base are belong to us

[Angmar]

flawless victory

[Light Flantastic]

everyone knows i won

[Der Übermensch]

Discuss ideas that you agree with that groups you normally disagree with happen to hold.

Nazi's had good fashion sense.

[gregulus]

Nazi's had good fashion sense.

Riding pants? Small mustaches?

[beso negro]

It's a dumb argument because government funds lots of bad stuff and lots of good stuff and which is which depends entirely on your point of view. Aside from that, I can name lots of bad stuff which private business funds but it's sort of irrelevant.

i just don't think there should be penalties for being smart and hard working that's all

[Angmar]

I do, who do those guys think they are anyway! :mad:

[Iskandar]

i just don't think there should be penalties for being smart and hard working that's allThat was only completely irrelevant to what I was saying but okay.

If you're stoically convinced all taxes serve as penalties, there isn't much more we can do here.

[Light Flantastic]

well progressive tax certainly penalizes you for being successful

why tax the people who provide more jobs and stuff like that its stupid

[Angmar]

Taxing the poor is a much better idea.

That's where all the money is!

[Light Flantastic]

pretty sure the upper tax band is a fair bit above what you could safely call poor

[Angmar]

Abolish taxes.

Private courts!

[Light Flantastic]

run out of steam now i see

[Angmar]

Nah arguing with you is like running on a hamster wheel I really didn't start in the first place tbh.

[Light Flantastic]

ya you did you said something dumb i called you on it so you reverted to overtly dumb in an effort to brush it off

[Angmar]

My e-brain just died :(

[Angmar]

**** chad why you always gotta say those things makin me all self conscious and RAGED

[Det_Nosnip]

Nazi's had good fashion sense.

lol.

I wish a mod would close this.

[Iskandar]

well progressive tax certainly penalizes you for being successful

why tax the people who provide more jobs and stuff like that its stupidThey have more money.

Actually it's because we view relative income equality as a desirable end in itself, or at least better than high levels of income disparity.

Now prove progressive taxation hinders their ability to provide jobs.

[McP3000]

lol.

I wish a mod would close this.
oh the irony

[die of starvation]

yeah and those societies arent ready for extremely limited government perhaps

but westerners have already had the good **** modernizing has to offer i doubt that many of them would want to give it up after experiencing it

why give anyone the choice


because that minimizes the amount of negative coercion overall it would seem to be an axiomatically beneficial thing to do

what do you mean negative coercion
forcing people to do the right thing is positive

[beso negro]

Actually it's because we view relative income equality as a desirable end in itself, or at least better than high levels of income disparity.

Or in other words it's ok to take money from smart hardworking people because it's not fair to the dumb lazy portion of society.

why give anyone the choice

why are you so willing to help dumb people. let them rot away.

forcing people to do the right thing is positive

forcing poor people to give up crack isn't positive. it's better for society to let them rot away then waste money paying for help.

in case you didn't realize i hate poor people

[1338 h4x0r]

I grew up poor and can testify that not every poor person smokes crack js

[RNR]

It's pretty immature to, rather than want to fix government waste and strive for more efficiency, just call for the abolition of government influence, as if that will somehow make everything better.

[Light Flantastic]

that could well be the stupidest post yet in this thread

[RNR]

No u.

[Light Flantastic]

what do you mean negative coercion
forcing people to do the right thing is positive
maybe in a simplistic way but forcing them could lead to less positive effects in the long run

like taxing success can stagnate advancement

and other similar things

[Light Flantastic]

No u.

things are immature because i disagree with them

[RNR]

Yeah I call them immature. "I don't like it so let's kill it". Rather than fix it.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont think you know very much about libertarianism

the point is that large government can only be bad, making is smaller -is- fixing it

[RNR]

Oh okay that's different than what I thought it was. Would the american libertarian party platform be a good place to read about it?

[Light Flantastic]

maybe but that will probably be patronizing political party stuff

http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/l/i/Libertarians.html

this one has a sharp dressed lady so it must be good

[Iskandar]

It's a lie, all libertarians are white bourgeois males.
the point is that large government can only be bad, making is smaller -is- fixing itThis is your opinion.

Mine is that the dichotomy between big and small government is pointless and not very helpful at all.

[Light Flantastic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Elder

[Light Flantastic]

actually i dont want to be associated with him he has bad taste in suits

[Iskandar]

Token black guy.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont think black people like politics in general

[Light Flantastic]

too busy stealing cars obviously

[sweboy]

eating chicken selling drugs making rap videos

[Mr. Ron]

you guys are being quite mean!