militarization of neuroscience

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/columnists/hugh-gusterson/the-militarization-neuroscience

According to Jonathan Moreno's fascinating and frightening new book, Mind Wars: Brain Research and National Defense (Dana Press 2006), the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency has been funding research in the following areas:


Mind-machine interfaces ("neural prosthetics") that will enable pilots and soldiers to control high-tech weapons by thought alone.
"Living robots" whose movements could be controlled via brain implants. This technology has already been tested successfully on "roborats" and could lead to animals remotely directed for mine clearance, or even to remotely controlled soldiers.
"Cognitive feedback helmets" that allow remote monitoring of soldiers' mental state.
MRI technologies ("brain fingerprinting") for use in interrogation or airport screening for terrorists. Quite apart from questions about their error rate, such technologies would raise the issue of whether involuntary brain scans violate the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
Pulse weapons or other neurodisruptors that play havoc with enemy soldiers' thought processes.
"Neuroweapons" that use biological agents to excite the release of neurotoxins. (The Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention bans the stockpiling of such weapons for offensive purposes, but not "defensive" research into their mechanisms of action.)
New drugs that would enable soldiers to go without sleep for days, to excise traumatic memories, to suppress fear, or to repress psychological inhibitions against killing.


The main reason I'm opposed to this is because I'm opposed to the military in general. I'm not overly concerned about violations of quaint vitalist notions of personhood

But there must be some neoconservatives here who could offer reasons why this is a good idea

What could be the outcome of an arms race in this field?

What benefits could neuroweapons bring us, and at what cost? Will they really make us safer?

What about the potential for violation of the 5th amendment (freedom from self-incrimination) from examining someone's mental states against their will?

etc.

[Aaron]

But there must be some neoconservatives here who could offer reasons why this is a good idea
I'm no neocon, but I can see why one reason is good; military gets funding, which means there's be more funding into the field of neuroscience.

Science + funding = fun times.

[1338 h4x0r]

The ideas mentioned in the review look pretty ghoulish but I can see them presenting positive externalities

In the same way that the Internet started out strictly for military use, defense neuroscience research could and probably will eventually spill out of the military into the society at large, and contribute to the ultimate social reform: remaking ourselves at the level of the brain

[Aaron]

Exactly what I was alluding to dudebro.

[1338 h4x0r]

Cool. Anyway, does anyone find the current direction of the research a little ghoulish? Russia and China are not really scientific powerhouses, at least not now, but you can imagine that ethical concerns might be abandoned hastily if they did kick it up a notch and get into a neuroscience arms race with us.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

remotely controlled soldiers is a scary thought to me, mostly because humans are built to be single, self-sentient beings.

[Aaron]

Remote controlled? Like they recieve orders from someone else via like, a radio, and carry them out?

[Jonny]

remotely controlled soldiers is a scary thought to me, mostly because humans are built to be single, self-sentient beings.

Oh come on, that's ridiculous- who would volunteer for that? "Yes, I want you to take full control of my body and send me into a war zone".

Of course, if they did it with corpses...




/goes to write awesome zombie screenplay

[1338 h4x0r]

remotely controlled soldiers is a scary thought to me, mostly because humans are built to be single, self-sentient beings.

Then why are so many of them little more than unthinking sheep?

Try being truly independent-minded for a month and see how much **** you take for it

Remote controlled? Like they recieve orders from someone else via like, a radio, and carry them out?

Yeah

Oh come on, that's ridiculous- who would volunteer for that? "Yes, I want you to take full control of my body and send me into a war zone".

Errr ...... people have volunteered for some pretty insane stuff

Having your mind controlled on the battlefield isn't quite as ridiculous as a kamikaze or other suicide mission

In fact, if you're under level-headed control from someone or something with fuller command and understanding of the battlefield than an ordinary human could have, you may be more likely to survive.

[Aaron]

Yeah
Cause that already happens now.

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

Then why are so many of them little more than unthinking sheep?

Try being truly independent-minded for a month and see how much **** you take for it



god you're an idiot

[Against Miik!]

New drugs that would enable soldiers to go without sleep for days, to excise traumatic memories, to suppress fear, or to repress psychological inhibitions against killing.

wow that is so f'd up. I wholeheartedly support this research. Not with money or anything. But I'm there in spirit.

[1338 h4x0r]

god you're an idiot

It's the truth: step back, take a look around

There's plenty of sheeple all over

You just demonstrated my point: whenever someone brings up something true, but counterintuitive and unpleasant, he takes a bunch of **** for it

wow that is so f'd up. I wholeheartedly support this research. Not with money or anything. But I'm there in spirit.

I still have time to make up my mind over what I want to pursue in grad school

Could be neuroscience!

[Against Miik!]

****in make that **** i'll lobby the **** out of it.

I'll use the classic Peter Griffin argument, that what we forget is that anyone who doesn't support these technologies is gay

[wartomods]

not in 100 years

[1338 h4x0r]

What do you mean "not in 100 years"? Do you mean you'll never support the technology, or that you believe it is unfeasible?

I don't think you know just how fast progress in this field is

[Against Miik!]

Once that **** is out there its not like you can put it back in the bag.

Some of this stuff is a ways away from being commonplace though. Making something work in a lab is one thing. Making it safe, mass producible, cheap, efficient etc... is another

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

It's the truth: step back, take a look around

There's plenty of sheeple all over

You just demonstrated my point: whenever someone brings up something true, but counterintuitive and unpleasant, he takes a bunch of **** for it



i wasn't really disagreeing

i was more referring to the fact that you said something mostly irrelevant and decided to tell me your progressive and saavy world views about the nature of man

people are influenced by culture, yes. but man's "fundamental unit of operation," so to speak, is still the individual, as opposed to something like Orson Scott Card's buggers.

[1338 h4x0r]

Once that **** is out there its not like you can put it back in the bag.

Some of this stuff is a ways away from being commonplace though. Making something work in a lab is one thing. Making it safe, mass producible, cheap, efficient etc... is another

How many major scientific breakthroughs haven't eventually found their way into the commercial world?

Well there's nuclear fusion...

Most of them don't stay into the laboratory bubble indefinitely. The main reason we see a lot of this new stuff as ivory tower academic wanking is because we take everything for granted that came out of that environment and eventually embedded itself in the society

people are influenced by culture, yes. but man's "fundamental unit of operation," so to speak, is still the individual, as opposed to something like Orson Scott Card's buggers.

Frankly I think there's a lot of mind control (or at least very powerful suggestion) going on in the mass media and commercial spheres right now

You ought to watch a documentary like The Century of the Self or one of Noam Chomsky's social commentaries tbh

[Against Miik!]

Yeah thats what I mean. Like, these things totally exist now, but it seems like it will be a while before we are actually using them practically.

There are some moral issues though, with the things you listed. I think we'll get over that though.

[1338 h4x0r]

A number of these technologies are likely to become a practical reality in 2020~2025 neighborhood, IMO

Just a guess but I think a 10~15 year time frame has applied to a lot of past innovations

[Light Flantastic]

It's the truth: step back, take a look around

There's plenty of sheeple all over

You just demonstrated my point: whenever someone brings up something true, but counterintuitive and unpleasant, he takes a bunch of **** for it


well arent you a unique little snowflake

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah pretty much, I'm not too modest about it either

Now post on topic please

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

so the fact that people live within culture justifies someone else remotely controlling their actions? bullshit

[Light Flantastic]

but these topics about robots are old i dont want to post on topic

obama is a socialist

[GorgeousGabe]

They are making sound weapons as well... those are also extremely ****ed up, and also have the potential to create much more ****ed up things

[1338 h4x0r]

so the fact that people live within culture justifies someone else remotely controlling their actions? bullshit

How is this much different from the status quo in the military?

You do whatever you're told

They're just working on a more direct route to the soldier's brain

but these topics about robots are old i dont want to post on topic

obama is a socialist

Obama is a center-right politician

Neuroscience isn't about robots, unless you consider humans biological machines, which is actually pretty accurate

[Light Flantastic]

obama is left in america which is all that matters

unless poor people in america are actually mega rich by world standards

[1338 h4x0r]

obama is left in america which is all that matters

unless poor people in america are actually mega rich by world standards

By world standards (50% of the world's population are malnourished, about 2/3 do not have access to sanitary water and plumbing facilities) we're pretty wealthy

[Light Flantastic]

thats what i was saying though the point is you still dont call poor people wealthy in common speech because you ignore the rest of the world like you should with national politics

[1338 h4x0r]

Alright but that's besides the point because this thread isn't about property rights, which will not be the most important issue in the 21st century anyway

[Against Miik!]

Wow, neuroscience to property rights in less than two pages. Thats impressive.

[Light Flantastic]

well people already generally support property rights there isnt really a need for revolution

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

How is this much different from the status quo in the military?

You do whatever you're told

They're just working on a more direct route to the soldier's brain


well, if you want a problem with that, there's the increased potential for abuse for one

[1338 h4x0r]

Really? How so

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

responding to me?

[1338 h4x0r]

Yes

I refuse to let this thread be about ****ing libertarianism and encourage everyone to ignore chad's posts

[Light Flantastic]

the only person who didnt ignore them was you

[Light Flantastic]

plus it was you who brought up libertarianism idk all i said was obama was leftist

[Against Miik!]

How dare you

[Light Flantastic]

obama will use neuroscience to subvert property rights and turn the us into a communist dystopia

ok now we're back on topic

[1338 h4x0r]

I believe these programs are aimed for the military alone

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

Yes

I refuse to let this thread be about ****ing libertarianism and encourage everyone to ignore chad's posts

Ok, what I meant was, while being absolutely coordinated is good as long as the plan is good, then that's great, but if it's a bad plan, the results are all the more disastrous

also, lyndie england, acting ultimately of her own accord, was a major embarrassment for the US. How much worse would a group of remotely controlled soldiers be in a situation like that? (admittedly, it does seem unlikely that someone like that would be placed in charge of others actions)

also, the "pawns in chess" idea eats at me a little, too: If I were a soldier, I think I'd rather my life remain in my own hands, since I value my own life much more than anyone else does.

[1338 h4x0r]

I remember a WWII veteran saying "War is a series of mistakes. Whoever makes the least mistakes wins!"

I think neuroweapons and information-centric warfare, which DARPA is really interested in now, would eliminate more mistakes. Whether that's good or bad is up in the air

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

I'm not sure. Are higher-ups less prone to mistakes than their underlings?

[1338 h4x0r]

No, maybe not, but being very level-headed and having a fuller command of the data, etc. make it easier to make less mistakes

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

I think in an environment where soldiers are putting their lives on the line, it's immoral to strip them of their self-interest.

Although i suppose that control might merely be illusory, and a soldier (statistically anyway) is probably better off that way

[1338 h4x0r]

Well what about remote-controlling lower animals as has been done with rats

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

who cares they're rats

[1338 h4x0r]

Oh ok I was thinking we might have an animal rights angle here ...... what about dogs?

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

I'm a little less okay with it but they aren't humans

[GorgeousGabe]

I too am a little less OK with that but there are too many dogs anyway and we kill them anyway

The mind reading brain scan technology scares me most of all though. Can we talk about how twisted the potential to use a person's thoughts as evidence is?

[Light Flantastic]

well i assume it would be inadmissible since there is the whole constitution thing

[GorgeousGabe]

there is also this patriot act thing

[andyneverstoppingmachine]

i don't think the patriot act can be interpreted to apply there, and i mean the neocon is a dying breed anyway

[Light Flantastic]

constitution is the highest law in the land sonny

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah it seems like a Phillip K. Dick thing

I guess if brain scans were 100% accurate though couldn't the evidence produced convict or acquit perfectly fairly?

Oh and did you see the video of the guy twittering with his brain waves?

[GorgeousGabe]

it isn't always

the constitution also wasn't written to acknowledge the possibility of things like mind control or mind reading

[GorgeousGabe]

Someone twittered with their brain waves?

now that is cool

I've seen videos of chimps controlling robot arms with their brains, and of a guy playing pong with his brain. In fact I watched a whole program about these new kinds of man machine interface things

[Black Ink]

I remember a WWII veteran saying "War is a series of mistakes. Whoever makes the least mistakes wins!"

I think neuroweapons and information-centric warfare, which DARPA is really interested in now, would eliminate more mistakes. Whether that's good or bad is up in the air
"A Patriot isn't someone who dies for his country, its someone who makes the other guy die for his."

Back in my day we killed people with bullets and used propaganda for mind control and damn it did the job!

[1338 h4x0r]

@ Gabe

Yeah it's on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=205dHV55XWQ

No sound or explanation, you can find out all the details tho

[Light Flantastic]

technology is good because its exponentially advancing and the (vaguely) good guys (us) are already ahead so we'll continue being awesome forever and ever the end

[GorgeousGabe]

We are all 'us'

[Light Flantastic]

well thats a nice thought but no

[Raayl]

so nobody answered me. is light flantastic THE chad, the spammer chad, the scourge of MX chad?

[Light Flantastic]

ya why

[GorgeousGabe]

I would say it's a 'nice thought' that our nationality or culture can separate us from the fact that we are human beings

[Raayl]

ya why

seriously?

[Light Flantastic]

ya why

[Raayl]

idk cause you were like

the scourge of mx

and it all makes so much sense now

why did you do the things you did

[Light Flantastic]

i am very sorry for all the pain and distress i have caused

i am also very sorry that you are ruining this thread because of the pain and distress i have caused

[1338 h4x0r]

I would say it's a 'nice thought' that our nationality or culture can separate us from the fact that we are human beings

Yeah but there are real "us" / "them" rifts and I would expect the kinds of technology that fall under the rubric of this thread to make them vastly wider

[TerranYouApart]

well thats a nice thought but no

it would take being invaded by a space civilization for you to recognize that you are wrong, and then we'd probably just kill you.

[Noku]

Frankly I think there's a lot of mind control (or at least very powerful suggestion) going on in the mass media and commercial spheres right now

Has any of you served in military? Because the amount of mind control there is in my opinnion much more fine tuned than anything the crappy advertisement people could do.

A number of these technologies are likely to become a practical reality in 2020~2025 neighborhood, IMO

Just a guess but I think a 10~15 year time frame has applied to a lot of past innovations

Or they might also drop in the gap of always being practical in the next 30 years...



This forum has devolved so much during past few years. We have mods who should be trying to keep things from going off topic because of spammers but instead they seem to be enjoying it. Or it might be that some people just can't get along. Anyway, the direction of progress is sad but on the other hand there is still possibility for "intelligent discussion". Probably this forum has gone more towards being a community, accepting also the non serious discussion, which might be good but it also damages the threads that might be interesting, on the other hand the spam also keeps up the threads that otherwise could be forgotten as uninteresting.

And please mods, don't delete this message, it does no harm for you... I am just a bit dissapointed to the amount of off-topic messages in threads today.

[1338 h4x0r]

If the a lot of the prototypes already work, 10~15 years is a good timeframe

It's not like harnessing nuclear fusion where we have been at a standstill for years