Honduras coup

[misterfitch]

my first thought when i read this was whether the CIA was involved in this, especially because of the bolded stuff:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-28-voa22.cfm

Honduran military forces have ousted President Manuel Zelaya and exiled him to Costa Rica hours before a controversial constitutional referendum vote was set to begin. Organization of American States met in emergency session while the Obama administration expressed concern over events in the Central American nation.

President Zelaya says Honduran troops forcibly removed him from his home in the dead of night and sent him to Costa Rica in his pajamas.

The expulsion came on the day Mr. Zelaya had chosen for a referendum on whether to change the constitution to allow him to run for a second term in office. The president pressed ahead with the vote in defiance of Honduras' Supreme Court, which had declared the measure illegal.

In a news conference at the airport in San Jose, Costa Rica, Mr. Zelaya said he is the victim of a coup d'etat.

The Honduran leader said he has been kidnapped with violence and brutality, which he termed an affront to the entire world that brings back memories of past dictatorships in the Americas. Appearing alongside Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, Mr. Zelaya said he wants to return to Honduras as president and that he is counting on the support of all democratic governments, including that of the United States.

In Washington, President Obama issued a statement saying he is "deeply concerned" by events in Honduras. He urged all political and social actors in the country to respect democratic norms, the rule of law, and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called on Hondurans to respect their country's constitutional order.

Blocks away from the White House, the Organization of American States met in an emergency session. Honduras' ambassador to the body [Carlos Sosa Coello] demanded what he termed an 'emphatic condemnation" of the coup.

OAS Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza echoed the call:

Inzulza said what has occurred is a military coup that must be condemned with energy. He said the OAS must issue a clear demand for a return to constitutional order and insist that human rights be respected.

President Zelaya is a political ally of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez, who pledged to do everything possible to reverse the coup.

Honduras is to hold presidential elections in November. The country's 1982 constitution bans Mr. Zelaya's re-election.

chavez thinks so too
http://www.escambray.cu/Eng/news/Wchavez090628152.htm
Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez requested Sunday that US President Barack Obama pronounce against the military coup in Honduras, which he considered is carried out with the participation of the Central Intelligence Agency.

In statements to television channel Telesur, Chavez stated that he rejected the coup "right from its bone marrow" and asked the Honduran military troops not to face the people that went out to the streets to request the return of President Manuel Zelaya.

"The United States has a lot to do with this, Obama should be pronounced to reject the coup right from the marrow," the Venezuelan leader stated.

He specified that elements, such as the fact that the Honduran press media are braodcasting cartoons instead of information, corresponds with the format of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for the coup.

The format is to misinform the people, if it were not for Telesur that is locating in the heroic level in this battle, the images of the coup would not be transmitting, Chavez said.

The South American leader assured that behind the coup, it is the bourgeoisie and the rich people that transformed Honduras into a banana republic, a political, military and terrorist base of the US and of the US empire.

Chávez added that the coup was caused because he wanted to consult the people and asked the military troops to meditate and not to generate a genocide.

He also said that the Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of Our America (ALBA), of which nine countries are already members, among them Honduras and Venezuela, are in consultation and elaborating an anticoup strategy.

but since i learned that pretty much the entire congress and supreme court of Honduras is against what Zelaya is tying to do i'm not so sure about the CIA involvement. it wouldn't surprise me but i doubt their encouragement was necessary

express general opinion and CIA in latin america stuff etc

[Iskandar]

The expulsion came on the day Mr. Zelaya had chosen for a referendum on whether to change the constitution to allow him to run for a second term in office. The president pressed ahead with the vote in defiance of Honduras' Supreme Court, which had declared the measure illegal.Don't see why that would make you think the CIA had something to do with it, but it does seem like he's a pretty bad dude.

[TheDarkHorse]

When I first read this, I was kinda surprised that coups still happened. It does have striking similarities to the Chavez coup in 2002, and can very well be argued to be the work of the Agency, but my question is: why?

I'm not too familiar with Honduran politics in particular, but do you know what interest the U.S. has in Honduras? To point out, its also strange that he would be detained after a proposed referendum, especially when the population is (supposedly) in opposition.

[Iskandar]

I'm assuming Honduras has a left-wing government like most of Latin America so that's probably why.

[misterfitch]

Don't see why that would make you think the CIA had something to do with it, but it does seem like he's a pretty bad dude.

because it sets a dangerous precedent for a chavez-like unlimited presidential term

the CIA (and probably a lot of other people not necessarily without reason) would rather have temporary military rule and chaos than to allow latin america to edge closer to the examples set by venezuela and sort of cuba, and looking at his wikipedia page it looks like Zelaya was a little uncomfortably leftist for the US

When I first read this, I was kinda surprised that coups still happened. It does have striking similarities to the Chavez coup in 2002, and can very well be argued to be the work of the Agency, but my question is: why?

I'm not too familiar with Honduran politics in particular, but do you know what interest the U.S. has in Honduras? To point out, its also strange that he would be detained after a proposed referendum, especially when the population is (supposedly) in opposition.

well the US in general has interest in stopping Latin America from becoming socialist/communist both for economic reasons and because they are our neighbors and communist dictators are scary. honduras specifically is a big coffee exporter and i'm sure clothing exporter.

yeah it seems completely irrational to oust him just because he was trying to pull this off... honduras is a democracy so it seems like there must be some other way to stop him than a military coup?

[Iskandar]

because it sets a dangerous precedent for a chavez-like unlimited presidential termSort of but not really, though it's possible.
well the US in general has interest in stopping Latin America from becoming socialist/communist both for economic reasons and because they are our neighbors and communist dictators are scary.Ya but these guys aren't communist so I'm thinking it's more for strategic reasons. Chavez and friends aren't known to be friends of the United States.

[misterfitch]

Sort of but not really, though it's possible.

uh yeah how do you think they do it? it's always one step at a time, chavez did the constitutional referendum thing too. Zelaya is probably trying to be just like Chavez but the honduran populace won't have any of that ****


Ya but these guys aren't communist so I'm thinking it's more for strategic reasons. Chavez and friends aren't known to be friends of the United States.

yeah, again i don't think the CIA had much if anything to do with this one... i'm not sure what you mean by strategic reasons as that encompasses pretty much everything but yeah we are probably in agreement. the US government wouldn't want another venezuela that will hate on/resist all our free-trade tactics.

[Iskandar]

uh yeah how do you think they do it? it's always one step at a time, chavez did the constitutional referendum thing too. Zelaya is probably trying to be just like Chavez but the honduran populace won't have any of that shitI know. But it's not a referendum abolishing term limits and appointing him president for life. It's a possible stepping-stone to that.
yeah, again i don't think the CIA had much if anything to do with this one... i'm not sure what you mean by strategic reasons as that encompasses pretty much everything but yeah we are probably in agreement. we don't want another venezuela that will hate/resist on all our free-trade tactics.Ya.

[misterfitch]

I know. But it's not a referendum abolishing term limits and appointing him president for life. It's a possible stepping-stone to that.


well yeah. but that's exactly the way chavez did it. http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0257575220071102

[Iskandar]

Chavez isn't a dictator-for-life. But nor is Venezuela a paradigm of democratic choice.

[misterfitch]

he isn't now but i don't see him giving up his blossoming cult of personality when his terms are up, and he's had a lot of success getting rid of venezuela's established dictator protection so far

[TheDarkHorse]

Makes sense.

I'm just surprised to see a coup(a military one, mind you) in this day and age.

Evidently he isn't as popular as he thought

[Cesar21]

I'm just surprised to see a coup(a military one, mind you) in this day and age.


This.

[YDtoad]

The military was doing it's duty and upholding the constitution against the threat of a dictatorship. So yay to Honduras, now they can restore democracy. And boo to the cowardly Obama administration again embarrassing us. Obama couldn't take a strong stand on the stolen Iranian elections but he tried to keep a leftist proto-tyrant in power in Honduras. Disgraceful.

[misterfitch]

i agree that zelaya shouldn't get the referendum that he wants, but in a stable democracy there are/should be less chaotic and politically damaging ways to prevent dictatorships than through a military coup. but i don't know, maybe it will work out for the better.

[YDtoad]

i agree that zelaya shouldn't get the referendum that he wants, but in a stable democracy there are/should be less chaotic and politically damaging ways to prevent dictatorships than through a military coup. but i don't know, maybe it will work out for the better.

I think it will. And yeah, in a stable democracy there certainly are. But Honduras isn't a stable democracy :p

[Smokey D]

Um, the military doesn't have a constitutional duty to act contrary to the political process and prevent a constitutional amendment.

[YDtoad]

Um, the military doesn't have a constitutional duty to act contrary to the political process and prevent a constitutional amendment.

the constitutional amendment wasn't legal and was being forced through by an unpopular leader trying to become a tyrant, so of course they do. The military's number one duty is to protect the country, and that includes from threats from within. If Obama tried to make himself dictator, the US military would have a duty to remove him from power.

[Radiobass81]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-gE4UDVsYc

Watch the video before anyone else says he's "not as popular as they though." More specifically, the people intervening with the soldiers.

For any comments regarding the "danger" of unlimited reelection, I really hate how people see it as such a tabu if it concerns Latinamerica but it's OK in Europe, where most countries do it.

This coup has been internationally looked down upon. I haven't read one positive opinion, thank god. And I highly doubt it was the CIA, but who knows. The military has been expressing doubts on the referendum for a few days before that. And as much as they want to say it's protecting the constitution, it's an attack to the left. The embassadors for Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua were also kicked out.

The military also blocked off communications. Way to protect democracy, huh?

Zelaya is a buddy of Chavez, but he isn't anywhere near as far to the left.

And as for defendind the constitution, if the people want to change it, why impede it? Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, have all changed the constitution democratically, with the mayority wanting the change. THAT is democracy.

Contra el golpe militar. CONTRAGOLPE POPULAR!

[Radiobass81]

the constitutional amendment wasn't legal and was being forced through by an unpopular leader trying to become a tyrant, so of course they do. The military's number one duty is to protect the country, and that includes from threats from within. If Obama tried to make himself dictator, the US military would have a duty to remove him from power.

Being forced? Unpopular leader?

You probably knew nothing of Honduras before the coup happened.

[YDtoad]

Being forced? Unpopular leader?

You probably knew nothing of Honduras before the coup happened.

He was the most unpopular president in Latin America.

[Ando!]

the constitutional amendment wasn't legal and was being forced through by an unpopular leader trying to become a tyrant, so of course they do. The military's number one duty is to protect the country, and that includes from threats from within. If Obama tried to make himself dictator, the US military would have a duty to remove him from power.

maybe that's what you think but legally i doubt it

[Radiobass81]

The military was doing it's duty and upholding the constitution against the threat of a dictatorship. So yay to Honduras, now they can restore democracy. And boo to the cowardly Obama administration again embarrassing us. Obama couldn't take a strong stand on the stolen Iranian elections but he tried to keep a leftist proto-tyrant in power in Honduras. Disgraceful.

http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Golpe/militar/Honduras/6580-1/elpgal/

[TheDarkHorse]

The military was doing it's duty and upholding the constitution against the threat of a dictatorship. So yay to Honduras, now they can restore democracy. And boo to the cowardly Obama administration again embarrassing us. Obama couldn't take a strong stand on the stolen Iranian elections but he tried to keep a leftist proto-tyrant in power in Honduras. Disgraceful.

The irony of this is that they DIDN'T let democracy take its course by letting the referendum go to a vote

[Smokey D]

the constitutional amendment wasn't legal and was being forced through by an unpopular leader trying to become a tyrant, so of course they do. The military's number one duty is to protect the country, and that includes from threats from within. If Obama tried to make himself dictator, the US military would have a duty to remove him from power.

Um, whatever he was doing it was way less illegal than overthrowing the president. Don't you get how this works.

[Iskandar]

Or that abolishing term limits isn't the same as declaring yourself Emperor even if it may be a stepping stone to that eventuality.

[Radiobass81]

Or that abolishing term limits isn't the same as declaring yourself Emperor even if it may be a stepping stone to that eventuality.

Most European countries have unlimited term limits, too.

"El sur también existe" (The South also exists) - Benedetti

[Smokey D]

Okay but you have to admit European countries have a far better democratic record than Honduras or whatever.

[TheDarkHorse]

Okay but you have to admit European countries have a far better democratic record than Honduras or whatever.

...um how is this at all relevant?

[Radiobass81]

Okay but you have to admit European countries have a far better democratic record than Honduras or whatever.

The USSR died not to long ago, and I'm going to count it :p. And most of the democratic problems in Latinamerica in the past were due to outter interests.

"I wonder what would be of Latinamerica if nobody gave a damn about coke or communism." - James Bond

As for Honduras, Honduras hasn't had a bad record democratically until know. That the past presidents have been crap is another thing.

[Smokey D]

...um how is this at all relevant?

So unfixed terms are less likely to become an issue.

The USSR died not to long ago, and I'm going to count it

Um, sure but no one ever said that was a democracy.

And most of the democratic problems in Latinamerica in the past were due to outter interests.

Er, you mean like Mexico, Argentina, Brazil and Chile?

[Radiobass81]

Um, sure but no one ever said that was a democracy.

True.


Er, you mean like Mexico, Argentina, Brazil and Chile?

And Puerto Rico, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Bolivia to an extent, etc.

EDIT: Forget Haiti, actually. They've had problems from all over.

[Iskandar]

So unfixed terms are less likely to become an issue.In Latin America frequent coups, revolutions and other reversals of power have historically been a much bigger issue js.
Um, sure but no one ever said that was a democracy.Think he means the ex-Soviet states which became democracies. Except Belarus. Lol.

[Smokey D]

In Latin America frequent coups, revolutions and other reversals of power have historically been a much bigger issue js.

Thanks man.


Think he means the ex-Soviet states which became democracies. Except Belarus. Lol.

And?

[Iskandar]

Thanks man.Glad to be of service.
And?They weren't democracies until like 20 years ago that's all.

[Smokey D]

They weren't democracies until like 20 years ago that's all.

That's pretty irrelevant.

[Iskandar]

That's pretty irrelevant.In comparing the democratic records of Europe and Latin America, sure cause most Latino countries weren't democracies either until recently.

[Smokey D]

European countries have far less powerful executive governments than Latin American ones.

[Iskandar]

Given that, neither Latin America nor Eastern Europe has a strongly entrenched tradition of democratic stability and rule of law.

But both seem to be doing pretty okay at it despite that.

[Radiobass81]

European countries have far less powerful executive governments than Latin American ones.

Well, there's Castro, Uribe, and Chavez, true, but it's not a widespread thing.

[Smokey D]

Given that, neither Latin America nor Eastern Europe has a strongly entrenched tradition of democratic stability and rule of law.

But both seem to be doing pretty okay at it despite that.

Um, Eastern Europe is doing way better haven't you seen this thread.


Well, there's Castro, Uribe, and Chavez, true, but it's not a widespread thing.

It's more to do with the structure of their political arrangements. In Europe, there is a lot more reliance by the executive on parliament. Latin America has adopted a presidential model, which is more problematic.

Also, the EU is far better at exerting soft power pressure to comply with democratic norms than anything in Latin America.

[Radiobass81]

Um, Eastern Europe is doing way better haven't you seen this thread.



It's more to do with the structure of their political arrangements. In Europe, there is a lot more reliance by the executive on parliament. Latin America has adopted a presidential model, which is more problematic.

Also, the EU is far better at exerting soft power pressure to comply with democratic norms than anything in Latin America.

Yeah, but the equivalent of the EU in Latin America is the OEA (not sure of it's abbreviation in english), which, as Castro has said for ages and now the rest of the continent is picking up, has just been a puppet for the US interests. Perfect example is removing Cuba from the organization for "democratic" reasons whilst having Chile all throughout the Pinochet period.

However, Latin America is now putting pressure, and rapidly after the coup the OEA united and disapproved of the coup and of the "new government."

And you also have to take into consideration the fact that Europe never was a colony. Colonialism/Postcolonialism is something that's hard to break, and which some places still haven't broken with.

As for the presidential model, that's true. There are some cases in which there's a parliamental system (Cuba, Bolivia), but, well, they're not as even as in Europe.

And Eastern Europe is doing better, but you can't just forget about the Serbia/Kosovo/South Ossetia conflicts.

[Iskandar]

Um, Eastern Europe is doing way better haven't you seen this thread.Haven't you seen Ukraine until 4 years ago. How about Georgia and Armenia.

One coup isn't indicative of instability being endemic throughout the region.

Also please stop prefacing your posts addressed to me with "um". It's condescending and hurts my feelings.

[Smokey D]

And you also have to take into consideration the fact that Europe never was a colony. Colonialism/Postcolonialism is something that's hard to break, and which some places still haven't broken with.


Well, I'm not entirely sure about that. Europe was comprised of like 8 states at the start of the 20th century.

Also, I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for Latin America's democratic deficit. I'm just saying that as a matter of fact it is a less stable democratic region than Europe.


And Eastern Europe is doing better, but you can't just forget about the Serbia/Kosovo/South Ossetia conflicts.

When I say Europe, I really mean the EU.


Haven't you seen Ukraine until 4 years ago. How about Georgia and Armenia.

I mean the EU. But Georgia and Armenia aren't really part of Europe.


One coup isn't indicative of instability being endemic throughout the region.

Uh. Do you want me to list all the unstable countries in the region?


Also please stop prefacing your posts addressed to me with "um". It's condescending and hurts my feelings.

Man up.

[Iskandar]

When I say Europe, I really mean the EU.

I mean the EU. But Georgia and Armenia aren't really part of Europe.Should've said that. But being a stable democracy is a prerequisite for joining the EU so it's much less impressive.
Uh. Do you want me to list all the unstable countries in the region?They're much more stable than they were historically.

Comparing them with Europe is kinda silly because no place is as stable as the EU except North America, Anzac and maybe a few others.
Man up.What if I told you I've been a girl all along. Alex is short for Alexandra.

[Stig Caraveo]

what the **** are we talking about.

[Smokey D]

Should've said that. But being a stable democracy is a prerequisite for joining the EU so it's much less impressive.

What? My point all a long was that European countries have better democracies than Latin America. Of course there are reasons for this. It didn't come out of nowhere, and I never suggested it did.

They're much more stable than they were historically.

Comparing them with Europe is kinda silly because no place is as stable as the EU except North America, Anzac and maybe a few others.

No it's not, since my entire point was that Europe was in better shape than Latin America.


What if I told you I've been a girl all along. Alex is short for Alexandra.

It wouldn't surprise me.

[Iskandar]

International relations, go back to Russia.

[Iskandar]

What? My point all a long was that European countries have better democracies than Latin America. Of course there are reasons for this. It didn't come out of nowhere, and I never suggested it did.

No it's not, since my entire point was that Europe was in better shape than Latin America.Mine was that both have made great progress in a relatively short length of time. Not necessarily incompatible.
It wouldn't surprise me.How would you know. How would you know any of the "personal" details I reveal about myself are really true.

[Radiobass81]

When I say Europe, I really mean the EU.

Well then, by Latin America, I mean Chile :p.

But if it's the EU, not much arguing then.

[Iskandar]

Okay my definition of Latin America excludes Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador and Cuba then.

[Smokey D]

How would you know. How would you know any of the "personal" details I reveal about myself are really true.

I gotta say I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about it.

Okay my definition of Latin America excludes Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador and Cuba then

Do you want to average all European countries and all Latin American ones and see who comes out tops? I bet I can guess.

[Stig Caraveo]

here's a question: how much of the differences can be explained by genetics?

[Iskandar]

I gotta say I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about it.I hope so, because you lose enough sleep over me already.
Do you want to average all European countries and all Latin American ones and see who comes out tops? I bet I can guess.Do you want to average all European countries and all Latin American ones by the date of their democratic transitions and see who comes out tops?

[Stig Caraveo]

That would actually be really interesting to see. Do it.

[Smokey D]

Do you want to average all European countries and all Latin American ones by the date of their democratic transitions and see who comes out tops?

What would that prove?

[TheDarkHorse]

here's a question: how much of the differences can be explained by genetics?

none

We have South Korea, which is a democracy, and North Korea, which is a communist state.

We had West Germany, a democracy, and East Germany, a communist state.

Shall I continue?

My point: Genetics has little to do with it

[Smokey D]

(I think he might be trolling)

[Stig Caraveo]

I was joking, not trolling. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.

[Iskandar]

What would that prove?Europe has lots of countries that have been democratic since like ever (I mean, France) and this skews the results in their favour.
I was joking, not trolling. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.I just thought you were trolling but then we get all kinds of nutbars in here.

[TheDarkHorse]

(I think he might be trolling)

I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Its a common argument, and a good one when seen at the surface.

[Iskandar]

Genetics is a bogus argument for pretty much anything.

[Stig Caraveo]

To be fair you gave a better counter-argument that I was expecting.

[TheDarkHorse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-gE4UDVsYc

Watch the video before anyone else says he's "not as popular as they though." More specifically, the people intervening with the soldiers.


Just caught this

Not as popular /= No supporters.

Fact is he overplayed his hand, and caught the unfortunate side of it.

[lukeskywalkertakingadump]

I went to Honduras with my church when I was in like the tenth grade and still went to church. any way me and two of my buddies got caught smoking cigarettes and were forced to carry cement blocks up steep inclines in the hot Honduran sun. it was like being in a slave labor camp. **** honduras, i have never gone back to church since.

[Smokey D]

So I understand he did violate a Supreme Court order.

Question: what are we supposed to do when the government disobeys a court?

[BridgeToSolace]

Dissolve and repopulate the government.

A government without checks is a government run awry.

[Smokey D]

How do you dissolve a government which proven itself as not listening to the law? Isn't that just what the army was doing?

[BridgeToSolace]

How do you dissolve a government which proven itself as not listening to the law? Isn't that just what the army was doing?

Say please?

[Radiobass81]

Anyone still following?

They didn't let Zelaya on to Honduras, atleast 2 dead from the crowds who went to meet him, etc etc.