cars

[pedro durruti]

do you people think we should start doing something with these? like regulating them in either a government or nongovernment way?

[Iskandar]

Stop relying on them so much. Use them for long-distance travel (as an alternate to trains/planes/buses) and not in cities where we can walk, bike and take the subway. Stop buying so many of them and when we do, buy smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. Stop living in suburbs and commuting and contributing to urban sprawl.

That answer your question?

[misterfitch]

yeah cars are cool. i think public transportation should be improved though.

Stop relying on them so much. Use them for long-distance travel (as an alternate to trains/planes/buses) and not in cities where we can walk, bike and take the subway. Stop buying so many of them and when we do, buy smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. Stop living in suburbs and commuting and contributing to urban sprawl.

That answer your question?

i find this response unnecessarily rude

[pedro durruti]

i'm not asking a question

[indietrashrock]

Stop relying on them so much. Use them for long-distance travel (as an alternate to trains/planes/buses) and not in cities where we can walk, bike and take the subway. Stop buying so many of them and when we do, buy smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. Stop living in suburbs and commuting and contributing to urban sprawl.

That answer your question?

this but use buses instead of cars for long-distance travel when possible. this would mean better bus routes, NORWAY.

[Iskandar]

yeah cars are cool. i think public transportation should be improved though.Cars are used way too much and other means of transportation are better in many situations.
i find this response unnecessarily rudeI find it necessarily realistic.

If we want to survive as a species we have to make some major lifestyle adjustments.

[indietrashrock]

i'm not asking a question

yes you are. two actually.

do you people think we should start doing something with these? like regulating them in either a government or nongovernment way?

[misterfitch]

i agree with you but your tone was a bit snippy.

[Iskandar]

this but use buses instead of cars for long-distance travel when possible. this would mean better bus routes, NORWAY.Yes I meant they are one option for that. I prefer trains myself for the relatively low cost although cars are more flexible.
yes you are. two actually.
Lol I like this guy.

[indietrashrock]

I prefer trains as well but my country is like literally a mountain so it's basically impossible to have railroad tracks everywhere.

[Iskandar]

Oh yeah. Norway.

Buses are good but needlessly expensive. People really get fleeced on booking fees.

[TheDarkHorse]

do you people think we should start doing something with these? like regulating them in either a government or nongovernment way?

Government regulation.

Increased fuel standards, safety standards, etc. should all be included. This is what American car companies need.

[Iskandar]

We already regulate safety and stuff so I assumed he meant should we do something more drastic like limit the number of cars people can own, which I should think would be a last resort and only useful in extreme situations.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

the energry economy of movement has to be scaled back by the government the thing that must be focused on is city planning and developing infrastructure in new and regulated ways, this dependence on cars is an issue that the whole world has to address, governments should be at the beginning of the response

[pedro durruti]

yes you are. two actually.
i wasn't asking the question iskandar was talking about.
We already regulate safety and stuff so I assumed he meant should we do something more drastic like limit the number of cars people can own, which I should think would be a last resort and only useful in extreme situations.
i'm talking about common daily activities, like riding a bike, hitchhiking, carpooling or throwing a brick. ba ha ha

[Iskandar]

i wasn't asking the question iskandar was talking about.

i'm talking about common daily activities, like riding a bike, hitchhiking, carpooling or throwing a brick. ba ha haOkay what does that government have to do with that.

If you were asking that you should have been more specific.

[pedro durruti]

nothing, that's a nongovernmnetal way
but something like the options you offered might be a little different

[Iskandar]

The government should invest in infrastructure if that's what you meant.

As for encouraging people to actually use alternative transportation they can't do that besides allowing it to be constructed. People have to want to change their habits themselves.

[misterfitch]

clearly it would be best if people took personal responsibility and government also stepped in

arguing about which should take precedence over the other is always stupid.

[Iskandar]

It's always better if people can do things for themselves instead of the government.

It's when they can't that the government should step in.

[cobert]

stop relying on them so much. Use them for long-distance travel (as an alternate to trains/planes/buses) and not in cities where we can walk, bike and take the subway. Stop buying so many of them and when we do, buy smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. Stop living in suburbs and commuting and contributing to urban sprawl.

‪‪‪

[GorgeousGabe]

I'm a huge fan of mass transportation. **** cars.

(also I don't have a license. . .)

[Gattsu347]

government should give massive grants to companies progressing solar and hydrogen technologies, if they dont already.

[1338 h4x0r]

What we need are arcologies

http://www.arcosanti.org/theory/arcology/intro.html

[beso negro]

Government regulation.

Increased fuel standards, safety standards, etc. should all be included. This is what American car companies need.

no they don't need that

[GorgeousGabe]

uhhh yeah they do

[Freiheit]

it won't mater when we can't meet the demand for oil lolololol

[wartomods]

or do what they do like in most european countries tax the **** out of higher cc/ wasteful cars

[GorgeousGabe]

What we need are arcologies

http://www.arcosanti.org/theory/arcology/intro.html

have you seen the idea for the mobile floating city thing?

[Freiheit]

I'm split on the issue. While anyone who doesn't work on a farm/is a contractor is retarded for owning a large truck or SUV, I don't like the idea of government regulation on them.

[stevensonmat2]

What we need are arcologies

http://www.arcosanti.org/theory/arcology/intro.html

I've got one of his sketchbooks, nice for the coffee table.

I'm split on the issue. While anyone who doesn't work on a farm/is a contractor is retarded for owning a large truck or SUV, I don't like the idea of government regulation on them.

Don't forget people with large cargo needs. As a drummer I can't get around without my SUV.

[GorgeousGabe]

Yeah, my drummer's mother has an SUV and that has been a total godsend

[1338 h4x0r]

I've got one of his sketchbooks, nice for the coffee table.

Implementing sustainable architecture, hard as it is now, is a lot more feasible than failing to do so

[Hollerdaddycaust]

I cannot stand this "lapping" culture which is incredibly popular amongst our youth in Australia.

That is, on friday and saturday night lets just lap up and down the main street of your town with all your friends in the car. That is not to mention, rattling bumper bars from their current life savings invested in an expensive subwoofer sound system that sucks anyway because a car is pretty much the worst sound environment you can get.

Way to waste petrol.

[GorgeousGabe]

Implementing sustainable architecture, hard as it is now, is a lot more feasible than failing to do so

Have you heard about the guy who devised a new kind of cement that absorbs CO2 from the air, and also uses CO2 in its production (as opposed to creating CO2 as a wasteful bi-product of its production)

[Freiheit]

What we need are arcologies

http://www.arcosanti.org/theory/arcology/intro.html

interesting stuff


most American architecture is so boring and uncreative...miles of strip malls and parking lots.

[1338 h4x0r]

Have you heard about the guy who devised a new kind of cement that absorbs CO2 from the air, and also uses CO2 in its production (as opposed to creating CO2 as a wasteful bi-product of its production)

That won't fix urban sprawl

[Freiheit]

I can think of a few ways to fix the spread of people :>

[1338 h4x0r]

Well, we could start by getting rid of ...... muds ......

[Freiheit]

And they marched shoulder to shoulder; down the culdesacs, the city streets and the meadows; their titanium exoskeletons as uncaring and cold as their mission.

[Led_Zep_Bonham]

Cars are great for land-walkers, yeah, but the civilizations in the ocean have so much more rooooooooom.

[1338 h4x0r]

And they marched shoulder to shoulder; down the culdesacs, the city streets and the meadows; their titanium exoskeletons as uncaring and cold as their mission.

What I'd really like to see is a T-600 stomping muds in a poor black neighborhood while this plays in the background:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDde1es7aoU

[McP3000]

Stop relying on them so much. Use them for long-distance travel (as an alternate to trains/planes/buses) and not in cities where we can walk, bike and take the subway. Stop buying so many of them and when we do, buy smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. Stop living in suburbs and commuting and contributing to urban sprawl.

That answer your question?
this response is retarded in so many ways

you really are economically illiterate

[Iskandar]

this response is retarded in so many ways

you really are economically illiterateI'm sorry but you are the one who appears to be environmentally illiterate.

[McP3000]

nothing we can do can stop global warming unless you want to devolve our world by 500 years

[Freiheit]

I do think that people need to walk/bike more.

[Iskandar]

Don't forget people with large cargo needs. As a drummer I can't get around without my SUV.Get a smaller kit.

I could fit mine in a hatchback if I needed to.

[Iskandar]

nothing we can do can stop global warming unless you want to devolve our world by 500 yearsWhat are you basing this on besides right-wing ideology.

Wait, I just answered my own question.

[Freiheit]

which reminds me, I need a new mountain bike....


What are you basing this on besides right-wing ideology.

Wait, I just answered my own question.

To be honest, we can't do much from what I understand. I don't think man created GM, we're only contributing to it.

[McP3000]

What are you basing this on besides right-wing ideology.

Wait, I just answered my own question.
umm put forth a way of stopping global warming without unrealistic alterations in everyday people's lives that wont ruin our economy or devolve our way of life.

please stop using strawmen to make yourself look intelligent. Youre supposed to be the mod of PNWI not a pitmember

[Iskandar]

umm put forth a way of stopping global warming without unrealistic alterations in everyday people's lives that wont ruin our economy or devolve our way of life.I just did. I said we should use cars less.
please stop using strawmen to make yourself look intelligent. Youre supposed to be the mod of PNWI not a pitmemberThat wasn't a strawman.

[1338 h4x0r]

umm put forth a way of stopping global warming without unrealistic alterations in everyday people's lives that wont ruin our economy or devolve our way of life.

please stop using strawmen to make yourself look intelligent. Youre supposed to be the mod of PNWI not a pitmember

Much of the world will become an intolerable hellhole and malaria could even start to make a strong presence in the southern US but AT LEAST WE GOT XBOX LIVE!!!!

I should note that, with superior technology and determination, which are supposed to be conservative values, we could go between the horns of the dilemma almost entirely.

Also "more efficient cars" are bunk because people just drive more in them

Also 10k posts bitch

[Iskandar]

I'm excited for peak oil.

[Freiheit]

peak already happened

[McP3000]

I just did. I said we should use cars less.
how is that realistic or economically feasible

try again

That wasn't a strawman.
Discounting my views immediately without any relevant points, simply for thinking my views are "conservative" (which isnt entirely true) is retarded nonetheless.

Much of the world will become an intolerable hellhole and malaria could even start to make a strong presence in the southern US but AT LEAST WE GOT XBOX LIVE!!!!
again insulting me doesnt do anything if you cant refute what i said
I should note that, with superior technology and determination, which are supposed to be conservative values, we could go between the horns of the dilemma almost entirely.
i do value that. Now please explain how to do this, you have my attention.
Also "more efficient cars" are bunk because people just drive more in them

lol so true

[Iskandar]

peak already happenedI'm already excited.
how is that realistic or economically feasible

try againI just told you. Use alternative means of transportation, and stop living in suburbs. Goddammit there is nothing more retarded than suburbs.

I live in a city and I don't own a car and I get along fine. It's not hard.

[Freiheit]

well one thing is for certain, relatively soon we're going to get a big shock at what its like when they can't supply enough oil for our demand.

[Raayl]

k, howabout this postulate

global warming isnt bad.

and why is everyone discussing cars like they are the real threat. lets discuss the meat industry. go.

[Freiheit]

I'm already excited.
I just told you. Use alternative means of transportation, and stop living in suburbs. Goddammit there is nothing more retarded than suburbs.

I live in a city and I don't own a car and I get along fine. It's not hard.

living in cities for the most part sort of sucks.

[Iskandar]

k, howabout this postulate

global warming isnt bad.Environmental degradation is bad and this isn't up for debate.
and why is everyone discussing cars like they are the real threat. lets discuss the meat industry. go.I'm a vegetarian.
living in cities for the most part sort of sucks.I couldn't live anywhere else, I'm sorry.

[Raayl]

Environmental degradation is bad and this isn't up for debate.
I'm a vegetarian.

Who said global warming is environmental degradation? Global warming throughout the biological history of life has been the primary support structure of the cultivation of life. Global ice ages have been the damage.

"It's not up for debate" isn't a very acceptable position to take, Iskandar.

Also - do you not know about the meat industry's contributions to fossil fuel emissions?

[Hollerdaddycaust]

What are we gonna do with all these hunks of junk when we run out of fuel

[Iskandar]

Who said global warming is environmental degradation? Global warming throughout the biological history of life has been the primary support structure of the cultivation of life. Global ice ages have been the damage.Oh no not you too. This is codswallop. The modern phenomenon of climate change is unnatural and due to human industrial activity.
"It's not up for debate" isn't a very acceptable position to take, Iskandar.Yes it is.
Also - do you not know about the meat industry's contributions to fossil fuel emissions?Yes, that's why I'm a vegetarian. I just told you.

[Raayl]

Prove it, Iskander. Provide me realistic data and a scientific thesis with comprehensive analysis of total fossil fuel emissions into earths atmosphere. Use a template of 1 million years. Go.

[stevensonmat2]

Get a smaller kit.

I could fit mine in a hatchback if I needed to.

That's an idiotic suggestion. Why don't you just bike your snare to the club and do rudiments for an hour?

[Iskandar]

Prove it, Iskander. Provide me realistic data and a scientific thesis with comprehensive analysis of total fossil fuel emissions into earths atmosphere. Use a template of 1 million years. Go.Actually only the last hundred years would be sufficient.

But it's the denialists like you who need to prove their viewpoints when they differ from the consensus.
That's an idiotic suggestion. Why don't you just bike your snare to the club and do rudiments for an hour.No it's perfectly reasonable. If you can't scale down your kit enough to fit into a small car, you either can't play or you play terrible music.

[Raayl]

Actually only the last hundred years would be sufficient.

But it's the denialists like you who need to prove their viewpoints when they differ from the consensus.

I'm not denying anything, I thought I made that clear. It is evident there is a warming trend. My opinion is that this trend is not dangerous but in fact the contrary. This is an interpretation of events, not a denial.

And no, the last hundred years would not be sufficient, because that would not give us an effective measure of how we relate to seismic and sulfuric emissions.

[Iskandar]

I'm not denying anything, I thought I made that clear. It is evident there is a warming trend. My opinion is that this trend is not dangerous but in fact the contrary. This is an interpretation of events, not a denial.

And no, the last hundred years would not be sufficient, because that would not give us an effective measure of how we relate to seismic and sulfuric emissions.No you're denying the scientific consensus that global warming is directly linked to human activity and has serious implications for environmentalism.

[Raayl]

No you're denying the scientific consensus that global warming is directly linked to human activity and has serious implications for environmentalism.

My data clearly shows an estimation of 3% contributions over a million year template. Does yours conflict?

Keep in mind, this template and model is based on venus - the only real example we know of where global warming would provide devastation. You seriously can't disagree that ice ages are just as dangerous, if not more so, than a few degrees of temperature increase. Can you?

[Iskandar]

My data clearly shows an estimation of 3% contributions over a million year template. Does yours conflict?

Keep in mind, this template and model is based on venus - the only real example we know of where global warming would provide devastation. You seriously can't disagree that ice ages are just as dangerous, if not more so, than a few degrees of temperature increase. Can you?Wait what data and how is Venus relevant again.

[Raayl]

Wait what data and how is Venus relevant again.

Head over to the Congress passed an energy bill thread and read my posts there. Sorry, I didn't realize you weren't posting there as well. Then we can discuss further.

[Iskandar]

Head over to the Congress passed an energy bill thread and read my posts there. Sorry, I didn't realize you weren't posting there as well. Then we can discuss further.Okay but
You seriously can't disagree that ice ages are just as dangerous, if not more so, than a few degrees of temperature increase. Can you?
I never even mentioned ice ages. I'm talking about warming.

[Raayl]

Okay but
I never even mentioned ice ages. I'm talking about warming.

Yeah, read my posts in the other thread. I think it may make a little more sense to you where I'm coming from.

Both threads are about the same thing, so I got confused. growl.

[stevensonmat2]

No it's perfectly reasonable.

Limiting what I can own and use based on difference of 5-7 mpg is not reasonable, especially considering the distance to a local show would only be 2-3 miles.


If you can't scale down your kit enough to fit into a small car, you either can't play or you play terrible music.

Tell that to any number of famous drummers from any genre of music.

[Iskandar]

Limiting what I can own and use based on difference of 5-7 mpg is not reasonable, especially considering the distance to a local show would only be 2-3 miles.How much stuff do you need again. If you're playing local gigs, I'd think you'd want to be able to transport and set up quickly and easily.
Tell that to any number of famous drummers from any genre of music.What about them. They can afford gas can't they.

They're also a tiny microcosm of the musical community.

[stevensonmat2]

How much stuff do you need again. If you're playing local gigs, I'd think you'd want to be able to transport and set up quickly and easily.

I only play a 4 piece. My bass (24") and floor tom (16") take up the back hatch (Toyota 4-runner 1994), and the rest fits in my back seat. If I really pack it in I can fit an amp as well. Also, the front passenger seat usually is carrying a band mate.


What about them. They can afford gas can't they.


My point is there are numerous drummers (famous and non) in every style who couldn't fit their kits into small car. John Bonham wouldn't have been able to fit his kit into a hatchback. Scaling down wouldn't have been appropriate given the kind of music he played, nor would it be appropriate for me.

[Iskandar]

I only play a 4 piece. My bass (24") and floor tom (16") take up the back hatch (Toyota 4-runner 1994), and the rest fits in my back seat. If I really pack it in I can fit an amp as well. Also, the front passenger seat usually is carrying a band mate.



My point is there are numerous drummers (famous and non) in every style who couldn't fit their kits into small car. John Bonham wouldn't have been able to fit his kit into a hatchback. Scaling down wouldn't have been appropriate given the kind of music he played, nor would it be appropriate for me.John Bonham's kit was quite large for his time and still is today. Most people don't play 26" bass drums and a set of tympani with a gong.

[Freiheit]

I couldn't live anywhere else, I'm sorry.

you like having people living on top of you? idk I value my privacy and clean air.

[stevensonmat2]

John Bonham's kit was quite large for his time and still is today. Most people don't play 26" bass drums and a set of tympani with a gong.

Before he had those he was playing club shows with a kit similar in size to my own. But that's all irrelevant to my point.

[Freiheit]

get a drum machine

[stevensonmat2]

check out this guy

[Hollerdaddycaust]

nobody plays drums

[Iskandar]

you like having people living on top of you? idk I value my privacy and clean air.I have nobody living on top of me and I have both.

[McP3000]

I just told you. Use alternative means of transportation, and stop living in suburbs. Goddammit there is nothing more retarded than suburbs.

I live in a city and I don't own a car and I get along fine. It's not hard.
great your life is full of love and lots, but not everyone can get a job nearby, or on a bus route, or similar. Not to mention that people choose to live in suburbs because its cheaper, far less crowded, and often have more favorable environments. The fact that you want to force people into overcrowding small areas is retarded.

[1338 h4x0r]

Many metropoles of the world are full of well-off people who don't have cars

[GorgeousGabe]

great your life is full of love and lots, but not everyone can get a job nearby, or on a bus route, or similar. Not to mention that people choose to live in suburbs because its cheaper, far less crowded, and often have more favorable environments. The fact that you want to force people into overcrowding small areas is retarded.

The fact that there are over 6 and a half billion people on this planet is retarded. . . we need to embrace a model that fits more into less because efficiency of finite resources will become a more and more and more important factor as we continue to advance as a species.

Water, land, fuel, food. . . these are resources that we MUST learn to use more efficiently if we are to avoid mass scale worldwide catastrophe

You can say that economically this is infeasible.

It is economically infeasible to rely upon finite resources, period. The way we are living is not infinitely sustainable. Hell, it isn't even sustainable on a scale of hundreds of years.

So OK. We already know this to be true.

We also know it to be true that to squander the earth's resources in an environmentally irresponsible manner will inevitably lead to climate change, environmental destruction, and ultimately disaster.

The way that we live as a species is NOT realistic. It is a pipe dream. Let us start talking about alternative REALISTIC models for living then.

[Iskandar]

great your life is full of love and lots, but not everyone can get a job nearby, or on a bus route, or similar. Not to mention that people choose to live in suburbs because its cheaper, far less crowded, and often have more favorable environments. The fact that you want to force people into overcrowding small areas is retarded.Suburbs are not cheap and they are not convenient either. People just want to live in model homes.

It's much more efficient to live in high-rises.

[McP3000]

Suburbs are not cheap and they are not convenient either. People just want to live in model homes.

It's much more efficient to live in high-rises.
you get so much more for your money in a suburb than in a high rise you have to be kidding me

[Iskandar]

you get so much more for your money in a suburb than in a high rise you have to be kidding meYou get more space you don't really need in exchange for wasting a lot of money on commuting.

The reason apartments are expensive is because of low supply which can be solved by building more apartments.

[GorgeousGabe]

The reason apartments are expensive is because of low supply which can be solved by building more apartments.

gtfo of greenpoint

[stevensonmat2]

You get more space you don't really need in exchange for wasting a lot of money on commuting.


Living in an apartment sucks. I get that theoretically it makes more sense for us to live in mass housing, but with that point we all may as well live in capsule hotels. Its nice having a yard or even some woods to enjoy. Besides, the commuting wouldn't even be an issue if we had improved public transit and alternative energy sources, and neither of those would degrade people's quality of life.

[GorgeousGabe]

1) alternative energy sources must be explored & conquered & put to use immediately
2) alternative & renewable fuel sources for cars must be employed
3) meat industry MUST BE DOWNSIZED
4) concrete production must be converted to GREEN concrete production

those are the biggest ones I think

[Iskandar]

Living in an apartment sucks. I get that theoretically it makes more sense for us to live in mass housing, but with that point we all may as well live in capsule hotels.Capsule hotels are fine for sleeping in for a few hours, not living in.
Its nice having a yard or even some woods to enjoy.I live right by two pretty big parks. Right by as in a short walk.
Besides, the commuting wouldn't even be an issue if we had improved public transit and alternative energy sources, and neither of those would degrade people's quality of life.Living an hour's drive from your workplace and commuting there is silly.

I don't get why people are saying I want to degrade our quality of life. I think alternative transportation would improve it by being cheaper (in the long run), simpler and greener. That's how it works for me.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I like driving fast cars that get shitty gas mileage.

[stevensonmat2]

Capsule hotels are fine for sleeping in for a few hours, not living in.
I live right by two pretty big parks. Right by as in a short walk.
Living an hour's drive from your workplace and commuting there is silly.

I don't get why people are saying I want to degrade our quality of life. I think alternative transportation would improve it by being cheaper (in the long run), simpler and greener. That's how it works for me.

Visiting a park is not the same as having land of your own. And I agree that alternative transportation would improve peoples lives. I just don't like the idea of everyone having to live in high-rises.

[Iskandar]

Visiting a park is not the same as having land of your own. And I agree that alternative transportation would improve peoples lives. I just don't like the idea of everyone having to live in high-rises.No not just high rises but people should live in or at least near the cities where they work.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Sometimes that's not possible.

[Iskandar]

But people choose to live in suburbs and bedroom communities and commute. It's such a waste of time and money to spend an hour driving to work just so you can live in a quiet little town.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Sometimes that's not possible.
That's why it's up to the government to plan the city properly.

[Mr. Ron]

Suburbs are not cheap and they are not convenient either. People just want to live in model homes.

It's much more efficient to live in high-rises.
idk I value privacy but you're a socialist so I guess it makes sense





<333333 :p

[Iskandar]

idk I value privacy but you're a socialist so I guess it makes sense





<333333 :pI'm a social democrat and I value privacy highly and I don't think I'd have less in an apartment building than I do in my childhood home (where, incidentally I hate all the neighbours).

If you're that desperate to avoid human contact you can always move to a secluded farm 20 km out of town but I don't see why anyone would ever do that.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm a social democrat and I value privacy highly and I don't think I'd have less in an apartment building than I do in my childhood home (where, incidentally I hate all the neighbours).

If you're that desperate to avoid human contact you can always move to a secluded farm 20 km out of town but I don't see why anyone would ever do that.
are you joking? there are people living above and below you, and on either side. You have to put up with snot nosed brats making noise, landlords, traffic noise and higher levels of polluted air.


I don't want to avoid human contact, I just want a decent amount of land with some trees where I can relax and not worry about stuff. I have that right now and I'm a few minutes drive to the nearest city so its not like I live on a farm or anything.

[Iskandar]

are you joking? there are people living above and below you, and on either side.I have neighbours in a house too.
You have to put up with snot nosed brats making noiseAnd they have children too
landlordsMortgage.
traffic noise and higher levels of polluted air.
Which is the fault of people driving cars, not living in apartments.
I don't want to avoid human contact, I just want a decent amount of land with some trees where I can relax and not worry about stuff. I have that right now and I'm a few minutes drive to the nearest city so its not like I live on a farm or anything.I have a park a short walk away. It's much nicer and larger than anything I could afford.

[1338 h4x0r]

Men seek retreats for themselves, houses in the country, at the seashore, and in the mountains; and you tend to desire such things very much. But this is a characteristic of the most common sort of men, for it is in your power whenever you will to choose to retreat into yourself. For nowhere either with more quiet or more freedom from trouble does a man retreat than into his own soul

[Mr. Ron]

ok but the woods kick ***, Chris. THE WOODS KICK ***

[Iskandar]

I'm telling you, I live right by the woods.

[Mr. Ron]

cities don't have woods

[Iskandar]

Urban green space.

[Mr. Ron]

lol those are parks

[Iskandar]

lol those are parksGreenspace refers to any natural protected area, including forests. There is one by my house.

[Mr. Ron]

well ok. Do you journey into it often?

[Iskandar]

well ok. Do you journey into it often?Ya sometimes. I also go canoeing. There's a small lake.

[Mr. Ron]

Ya sometimes. I also go canoeing. There's a small lake.
Canoeing is so fun. I have some lengthy camping/hiking vacations planned with friends this summer. Come with us. We shall make a blood pact and hunt bear with spear and bow.

[WhoDidTheElf]

But people choose to live in suburbs and bedroom communities and commute. It's such a waste of time and money to spend an hour driving to work just so you can live in a quiet little town.

I don't know were you live, but people don't live an hour away because they want to have a nice quiet little suburb. (do those even exist?) They do it because that's were they can make it. Living in a city costs at least 2 times as much as the burbs.

[Iskandar]

I don't know were you live, but people don't live an hour away because they want to have a nice quiet little suburb. (do those even exist?) They do it because that's were they can make it. Living in a city costs at least 2 times as much as the burbs.Cheaper housing with expensive transportation versus expensive housing versus cheap or free transportation, and saving time too.

Cities rule.

[WhoDidTheElf]

A house in the burbs costs about 750k. A house in the city is 7k a month, or triple that other amount.

The cost of travel is wayyyyyyy cheaper.

[Mr. Ron]

I bought a piece of land in the country already. I may build a small farm on it :>

[Iskandar]

A house in the burbs costs about 750k. A house in the city is 7k a month, or triple that other amount.

The cost of travel is wayyyyyyy cheaper.You don't pay 750k up front though you get a mortgage and how expensive is that.

There are lots of cheap houses in the city, especially older ones. You can rent a flat or even a room. One or two people don't need much space.
I bought a piece of land in the country already. I may build a small farm on it :>Bag End.

[Mr. Ron]

Alex, when I was in 7th grade (and going through a bit of a depression) I'd literally fantasize about living at bag end. Woah thats pretty creepy huh?

[Iskandar]

Alex, when I was in 7th grade (and going through a bit of a depression) I'd literally fantasize about living at bag end. Woah thats pretty creepy huh?Why Bag End is sweet.

[Mr. Ron]

idk i never told anyone that before :(

[Iskandar]

Escapism as a means of coping.

Like nerds playing Starcraft.

[WhoDidTheElf]

You don't pay 750k up front though you get a mortgage and how expensive is that.

Well I can tell you a 300k mortgage, with good credit, is 1.7k a month. (Min, I've seen it as much as 2.2k)

So I'd assume a 750k mortgage would be nearly triple that.

There are lots of cheap houses in the city, especially older ones. You can rent a flat or even a room. One or two people don't need much space.
Bag End.

Not in the cities were I live. You want a POS house in the city, be expected to drop at least a million. The land is worth too much.

A studio in San Francisco, was in 2006 around 5-8k a month. Prolly cheaper than that now, but I doubt a lot cheaper.

Unless it's Oakland, but who the **** wants to live in Oakland.

[Aaron]

Don't forget people with large cargo needs. As a drummer I can't get around without my SUV.
Yes you can.

[Iskandar]

Well I can tell you a 300k mortgage, with good credit, is 1.7k a month. (Min, I've seen it as much as 2.2k)

So I'd assume a 750k mortgage would be nearly triple that.I threw a number out there. I don't know how much a mortgage is.
Not in the cities were I live. You want a POS house in the city, be expected to drop at least a million. The land is worth too much.

A studio in San Francisco, was in 2006 around 5-8k a month. Prolly cheaper than that now, but I doubt a lot cheaper.

Unless it's Oakland, but who the **** wants to live in Oakland.San Francisco is relatively small and has lots of historic houses and ****.

[stevensonmat2]

Yes you can.

...

Not going to have this argument with you as well.

[Iskandar]

Because you're starting to think you're not right.

[stevensonmat2]

Right on what, exactly? The fact that my bass drum couldn't physically fit into most cars, let alone compacts?

[McP3000]

i think its preposterous that one would think something like SUVs should be banned

[1338 h4x0r]

No, but they should be discouraged and ridiculed, like Ugg boots

(and should never figure a ****ing penny into tax deductions)

[Iskandar]

i think its preposterous that one would think something like SUVs should be bannedEven more preposterous is that someone would think buying an SUV is a good idea.
Right on what, exactly? The fact that my bass drum couldn't physically fit into most cars, let alone compacts?Get a smaller one.

Until you do, stop complaining about how you need this giant kit (hint: you don't) and subsequently need a Hummer to transport it in.

[DBoons Ghost]

I have to admit this thread amuses me to no end.

Cars are a small part of this problem. Automakers can't afford to buy favor like airlines.

Anyways, the day the government tries to force me into a car, is the day I kill for my freedom.

I downgraded recently to a Civic coupe. If there is no need for huge stupid cars bought for status more then purpose, more people should follow suit.

Banning SUVs is absurd. I can list a few hundred uses for them in American urban scenarios but because you kids post from mommy's house you have no clue. Please stop being idiots and imagining you know about life. You don't. It's ridiculous. If there was no need for SUVs in any capacity, they wouldn't sell. Would they?

A lot of American areas do not have the public transportation infrastructures you idiots seem to think they do. Adversely, a lot of American idiots buy elaborate SUVs as a show of wealth and status. Attack them. Leave the families alone.

I do not own an SUV. As stated, I downgraded to a Civic 5 speed as my daily commuter. I can afford anything, but I chose to get a Civic.

The airline industry is getting a free ride. The shipping industry is getting a free ride.

Stop being stupid.

[McP3000]

~bUt iTS ThoSe eViL CorPorAtE sUVs kIlLINg mY PLanEt~

[DBoons Ghost]

Evil SUVs!

The day with the clearest skies and cleanest air in the last 100 years was September 12th, 2001.

Not a plane in the sky.

[1338 h4x0r]

I can list a few hundred uses for them in American urban scenarios

......

we're waiting

[McP3000]

......

we're waiting
It's not hard. Think about every single reasons anyone would buy an SUV without being cynical and immature

[DBoons Ghost]

......

we're waiting

Wait until you're an adult, maybe you'll get it without me having to waste my time.

[DBoons Ghost]

Actually the math really isn't that hard.

SUVs don't dominate the country. They are the exception more often than not. We can agree on that.

According to the US Bureau of Transit Statistics for 2006 there are 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the US.

Out of these roughly 251 million vehicles, 135,399,945 were classified as automobiles, while 99,124,775 were classified as "Other 2 axle, 4 tire vehicles," presumably SUVs and pick-up trucks.

Yet another 6,649,337 were classified as vehicles with 2 axles and 6 tires and 2,169,670 were classified as "Truck, combination."

There were approximately 6,686,147 motorcycles in the US in 2006.

So with these numbers, I'll work on getting population stats from the Census Bureau, do some math, and see if this problem is as "widespread" as you all seem to think.

I'm at work though, so I can't do it all at once.

[DBoons Ghost]

Actually we could do the same for Canada, even though the population density is vastly different, I would bet most Canadians not living in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal, drive trucks of some kind.

[Smokey D]

How are cars a small part of the problem. A small part of the problem is like 2%. Cars are like 20%.



The day with the clearest skies and cleanest air in the last 100 years was September 12th, 2001.

Not a plane in the sky.

Well, it's difficult to form a judgment off a small sample like that, but while we're at it we should reduce air traffic and improve high speed train services.


Also, I don't see how auto manufacturers are in less of a position to 'buy support' from government. Autos are one of the most politicised markets there is in America.

[McP3000]

well obviously the government owns 2/3rds of the american market

[DBoons Ghost]

How are cars a small part of the problem. A small part of the problem is like 2%. Cars are like 20%.

Fair point. 20% is still not 100%. For all the constant whining about cars, you would think they were solely responsible.



Well, it's difficult to form a judgment off a small sample like that, but while we're at it we should reduce air traffic and improve high speed train services.

Both sound good, but high speed train services would indicate there was train service to speed up to begin with, and most of suburban America has no such infrastructure. The cost to build and power would surely contribute and one must weigh the cost benefit right? Though, I would agree both need to be done.


Also, I don't see how auto manufacturers are in less of a position to 'buy support' from government. Autos are one of the most politicised markets there is in America.

True, and maybe it was a little bit of ignorance on my part to make such a statement.


However, I've been trying to find a breakdown of statistics regarding SUV sales. Compared to minvan sales, since they both use the same drivetrain/engine combinations. It would be a travesty for the American family to not be able to take to the open road.

SUVs would include 4 to 6 cylinder vehicles as well, since certain Jeeps, Fords, Dodges and the likes all have 4 cylinder models that fall into the SUV category.

So is this just about Hummer?

[GorgeousGabe]

Fair point. 20% is still not 100%. For all the constant whining about cars, you would think they were solely responsible.

How can you act like such an idiot while trying to tell others to stop being clueless and immature???

[DBoons Ghost]

How can you act like such an idiot while trying to tell others to stop being clueless and immature???

What is idiotic about that statement?

Am I not being as reasonable as others in this forum? 20% is not 100%. Seems pretty clear, devoid of idiocy.

[Mr. Ron]

No, but they should be discouraged and ridiculed, like Ugg boots

(and should never figure a ****ing penny into tax deductions)
^^^^^^^^^^^^

[GorgeousGabe]

20% of a HUGE problem is a HUGE part of the problem. Do we really have to debate this?

[DBoons Ghost]

20% of a HUGE problem is a HUGE part of the problem. Do we really have to debate this?

No. You should go back to the L&R thread in all honesty. You've provided nothing in this thread, typically when you have nothing you attack one little portion of the overall information I have provided, which means you have nothing.

I provided facts to the contrary. The solutions people are providing so far are unrealistic and mostly unattainable in my or your lifetime.

I am the only member of this forum with a family, a career, a wife with a career, and since I have been driving, commuting and living in the city with arguably the most developed public transportation system in the world, I think I have more of a valid position in this discussion then most other people.

So, 20% is a huge part of the problem. Now what?

So, is it Hummer? What immediate solution do you have for the average American family?

[Mr. Ron]

I think we can all agree that soccer moms owning trucks meant to haul heavy machinery on farms is a bit silly, no?

[DBoons Ghost]

I think we can all agree that soccer moms owning trucks meant to haul heavy machinery on farms is a bit silly, no?

That depends. Soccer moms (which is a horrid generaliation) owning Trucks meant to haul 4 children and all that goes with it might not be.

Have you ever gone food shopping for a family of 6? 2 adults and 4 children? Have you ever taken a weekend trip that YOU MUST DRIVE TO and fit everything you need in the trunk of a Civic? Should we all stop living to feed the liberal dementia?

If oil is running out, which is causing this panic, for every 20 articles you read about oil running out I read 40 that state it's not. Of course, liberals and environmentalists all preach the sky is falling and we're running out of resources, but the conservatives all claim we're better at finding and more efficient at refinfing.. etc..

Who do you believe and why? If that is not at the crux of this discussion, then if you keep attacking "soccer moms" and their needs for a Chevy Suburban, why not take a closer look at the family model?

I am trying to establish in all seriousness the problem with "SUVs" is not wastefulness which these vehicles represent. SUVs as a vehicle type come in all shapes and sizes. You guys keep attacking them with blind ferocity, and you all seem to think people could do more with less. Yet in all the posts I read, no one seems to mention any of what these vehicles cater to at all.

I mean, not one of you have a family. Sure you're a member of a family, but has anyone thought about it? Or are we just reading statistics.

Clearly, no one is even doing that at this point. There is obviously 80% of other industry at the root of this problem. Cars are going at the fastest rate possible to correct years of irresponsibility.

Is an 8 cylinder BMW 750i at fault? Most if not all Benzes are 8 cylinders. These are not American car makers. Only the American "SUV" is at fault, when most if not all of them are 4 to 6 cylinder.

[DBoons Ghost]

I forgot to mention my daughter played a full season of soccer this year, and not one of these "soccer moms", or dads for you ignorant morons, coming from Scarsdale, Bronxville and all other affluent rich areas of Westchester County, drove an SUV. The people who ran the league did though. It was actually a van, because the goddamn equipment doesn't fit in a Smart car, now does it?

[stevensonmat2]

Even more preposterous is that someone would think buying an SUV is a good idea.
Get a smaller one.

Until you do, stop complaining about how you need this giant kit (hint: you don't) and subsequently need a Hummer to transport it in.

Everybody loves condescension! And its just so cool of you to presume to know what sort of instruments I need for my music. Its no wonder you're a mod, you've shown yourself to be such a very likable and reasonable person. :thumb:

Also, I'm not complaining (I'm trying to reasonably explain), I don't drive a hummer (far from it), and if you want to talk about "need"s then you don't "need" a drum kit at all. Wasting gas to support your hobby? Pretty lame dude, think of the earth.

[Iskandar]

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem_fallacy

[Iskandar]

Anyways, the day the government tries to force me into a car, is the day I kill for my freedom.

I downgraded recently to a Civic coupe. If there is no need for huge stupid cars bought for status more then purpose, more people should follow suit.

Banning SUVs is absurd. I don't think anyone actually proposed this seriously. We just criticized how stupid it is to own an SUV and not use it for what it's meant for (serious outdoorsman stuff).
well obviously the government owns 2/3rds of the american marketI call BS on this one. America isn't a command economy.
I think we can all agree that soccer moms owning trucks meant to haul heavy machinery on farms is a bit silly, no?Soccer moms are ridiculous.

[DBoons Ghost]

I don't think anyone actually proposed this seriously. We just criticized how stupid it is to own an SUV and not use it for what it's meant for (serious outdoorsman stuff)..

I see. Well, that's cool.

Seriously though.. If an SUV, say.. a Jeep Liberty is more fuel efficient and cheaper to own then say.. a Chrysler Town and Country, should it still be stupid to own an SUV because it's an SUV and you're not buying it to off-road but more to have the room to fit 4 people's worth of groceries in the trunk, and still be able to sit your two kids in the back?

If you do a cost comparison between minivans, and SUVs, you'll see that sometimes the SUV is more practical, roomier, and uses less gas, and still meets your needs.

Do you honestly think SUVs are only status vehicles? If that was so, wouldn't they sell less? Wouldn't the minivan market still be thriving if the SUV wasn't competing with, and winning families over?

I'm just trying to discuss from the side of the family, which is not represented here on these forums.

[Iskandar]

Whatever's most efficient is best, whether it's a minivan or SUV. But neither is typically as fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly as a two-door sedan. The problem of course is that large, active families can't get by with a smaller vehicle but most people can.

[gregulus]

SUV's aren't solely a status symbol, but I'm not sure the "wouldn't they sell less" argument is as strong as you want to make it. While they may not be a status symbol, part of their success may be attributed to fads.

[Iskandar]

SUV's aren't solely a status symbol, but I'm not sure the "wouldn't they sell less" argument is as strong as you want to make it. While they may not be a status symbol, part of their success may be attributed to fads.Is the Lexus actually that good of a car or is it just a status symbol. I suspect it's both.

[DBoons Ghost]

Whatever's most efficient is best, whether it's a minivan or SUV. But neither is typically as fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly as a two-door sedan. The problem of course is that large, active families can't get by with a smaller vehicle but most people can.

I agree. I think you meant 4-door sedan, since a coupe is 2 door and a sedan is 4 door.

And you're wrong. I can name quite a few 4 door luxury sedans that are significantly less efficient and less environmentally friendly as most SUVs. These would all be the oversized luxury sedans, none of which are made by American automakers. They stopped competing in these classes years ago. We're talking the BMW 750i, the BMW 5 series, especially the M class. Many Mercedes Benz models, etc.. I could go on.

Although I admit I am not sure what you would deem "evironmentally friendly".

[Iskandar]

I agree. I think you meant 4-door sedan, since a coupe is 2 door and a sedan is 4 door.Crap. I knew something was wrong there.
And you're wrong. I can name quite a few 4 door luxury sedans that are significantly less efficient and less environmentally friendly as most SUVs. These would all be the oversized luxury sedans, none of which are made by American automakers. They stopped competing in these classes years ago. We're talking the BMW 750i, the BMW 5 series, especially the M class. Many Mercedes Benz models, etc.. I could go on.

Although I admit I am not sure what you would deem "evironmentally friendly".Well, granted but luxury cars are a different thing altogether. They're also expensive as hell.

[DBoons Ghost]

Is the Lexus actually that good of a car or is it just a status symbol. I suspect it's both.

There are varying degrees of measuring a good car.

Toyota makes Lexus. They have the fewest MBF rates of almost all automoble makers actually.

[Iskandar]

Really? I take it back, it's neither. It's just overpriced.

[DBoons Ghost]

SUV's aren't solely a status symbol, but I'm not sure the "wouldn't they sell less" argument is as strong as you want to make it. While they may not be a status symbol, part of their success may be attributed to fads.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee is arguably an SUV before there were SUVs. Not everyone who buys one is going off-roading. Jeeps have been high sellers since the 70s. That's one angle.

In my household, we have one snow going car (AWD, or 4WD), and one pratical car (FWD).

Because it snows and ice storms a lot in NY winters. It's nice to be able to get around when that happens. I wonder how many of you have driven your 4 cylinder econo-box out of 3 feet of snow, after the plow comes through, since not everyone has a garage and a lot of city dwelling people park on the streets. Winter is 6 to 7 months out of every year in most places with climates that drastically change. I cannot speak for someone who bought a Hummer H2 in Florida of course, but you see my point?

I do agree with you and I am sure we could make a pretty good argument from both sides, but the truth is, everyone owning a tiny 4 cylinder front wheel drive vehicle is absurd, impractical and silly. I mean, Suburu's for example, are decent AWD solutions to larger AWD trucks and SUVs, but they aren't well made autmomobiles in the end. Plus, I barely fit in any of them, and I've tried. I don't fit in my Civic either, but I don't spend enough time in it to care.

[DBoons Ghost]

Really? I take it back, it's neither. It's just overpriced.

I agree.

My approach when it comes to vehicles is one practical approach. My wife loves the status name cars, but I don't care what the name is. I want to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible. Why would you buy a Lexus when you can buy a Toyota? Leather seats? Toyota's have those. Power everything? Toyota's have that too.

Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, all made by Toyota, Honda, and Nissan respectively purposely made to appeal to a higher class. The only reason anyone buys any of those vehicles is so people can say "ohh they must be doing well, look what they drive.."

[mph4ever]

I am the only member of this forum with a family, a career, a wife with a career, and since I have been driving, commuting and living in the city with arguably the most developed public transportation system in the world, I think I have more of a valid position in this discussion then most other people.

*only if you're talking about new york man

[DBoons Ghost]

*only if you're talking about new york man

Ahh well dude you hadn't posted in this thread prior.

You're a good source to ask. I mean you've been to both, and without bias do you think London's public transportation is anything like NYCs?

Both times I was in the UK I stood in Canary Wharf a mere walk from where I was working.

[Iskandar]

I agree.

My approach when it comes to vehicles is one practical approach. My wife loves the status name cars, but I don't care what the name is. I want to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible. Why would you buy a Lexus when you can buy a Toyota? Leather seats? Toyota's have those. Power everything? Toyota's have that too.

Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, all made by Toyota, Honda, and Nissan respectively purposely made to appeal to a higher class. The only reason anyone buys any of those vehicles is so people can say "ohh they must be doing well, look what they drive.."I'm with you. I want the cheapest rust bucket I can afford.

Well not exactly but you get my drift.

[DBoons Ghost]

I'm with you. I want the cheapest rust bucket I can afford.

Well not exactly but you get my drift.


Hells yeah. Cheapest being all encompassing. Cheapest to maintain, cheapest to gas, cheapest to own throughout the vehicles lifesycle.

You are aware of the "loan" given to Tesla right?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/23/tesla.electric.cars/index.html

It's a start no?


I mean, I got too used to the GM business model, where they build a car that is destined to fail. Cars, much like a lot of the end of lifecycle throwaways that now plague our planet, shouldn't ever have been made to die, purposely to force us into buying new ones. I mostly lease because I know if I buy a car it's only going to last me a certain amount of time, and most cars cost double their price tag if you look at total cost of ownership through the car's life.

[mph4ever]

Ahh well dude you hadn't posted in this thread prior.

You're a good source to ask. I mean you've been to both, and without bias do you think London's public transportation is anything like NYCs?

Both times I was in the UK I stood in Canary Wharf a mere walk from where I was working.


yeah, i've used both. never had problems travelling in either. I found getting around manhatten to be so easy. also never have to worry about them stopping the service late at night in new york, there is always something available to get from a to b. london didn't have this, not sure they do now either. london underground always seems cleaner than the subway but i have never had issues with timing or anything. getting into london from the outskirts or further is simple with plenty of major railway stations covering the different areas and then being able to take a tube to almost anywhere with few changes required. not sure how new york stacks up here. new york cabs and buses are on a par with london. airports are a doddle in london, is there even a raillink for jfk yet? london has also benefitted from congestion charges where they tax the people clogging up the city with cars and invest the money in enhancements to public transport.

although i expect over the next few years for london to pull ahead due to the olympics in 2012. there will be a significant enhancement to its current capbilities

[beso negro]

I agree.

My approach when it comes to vehicles is one practical approach. My wife loves the status name cars, but I don't care what the name is. I want to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible. Why would you buy a Lexus when you can buy a Toyota? Leather seats? Toyota's have those. Power everything? Toyota's have that too.

Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, all made by Toyota, Honda, and Nissan respectively purposely made to appeal to a higher class. The only reason anyone buys any of those vehicles is so people can say "ohh they must be doing well, look what they drive.."

my approach is just the opposite

give me the best looking car I can afford i want everyone to know im very successful

gas mileage doesn't matter to me but neither does the engine. just looks and the electronics inside.

[DBoons Ghost]

yeah, i've used both. never had problems travelling in either. I found getting around manhatten to be so easy. also never have to worry about them stopping the service late at night in new york, there is always something available to get from a to b. london didn't have this, not sure they do now either. london underground always seems cleaner than the subway but i have never had issues with timing or anything. getting into london from the outskirts or further is simple with plenty of major railway stations covering the different areas and then being able to take a tube to almost anywhere with few changes required. not sure how new york stacks up here. new york cabs and buses are on a par with london. airports are a doddle in london, is there even a raillink for jfk yet? london has also benefitted from congestion charges where they tax the people clogging up the city with cars and invest the money in enhancements to public transport.

although i expect over the next few years for london to pull ahead due to the olympics in 2012. there will be a significant enhancement to its current capbilities

Still no rail to JFK or Laguardia, though there are buses as well as mandatory cab fare to both of the NYC airports, but there is a rail service to Newark airport in Jersey, which is 20 minutes from NYC assuming there's no traffic.

For travel outside of NYC, we have a Metro North train commuter train service that pulls into Grand Central Terminal for getting to the suburbs out of New York City and into Westchester County, all the way up to Rockland County, as well as a Railroad out of Penn Station to Jersey, and one to Long Island.

If you live in NYC there is really no reason to own a car at all. Buses and trains everywhere, and most if not all public transportation service is within walking distance.

Subways are still filthy, and the service has gotten worse, while the price has gone up. They get sued a lot, and the MTA's union consistently mismanage funds as there is a constant 40% of the workforce out on made up disability claims from faking injuries. I'm sure 10% are legit, but no one seems able to prove it.

[DBoons Ghost]

my approach is just the opposite

give me the best looking car I can afford i want everyone to know im very successful

gas mileage doesn't matter to me but neither does the engine. just looks and the electronics inside.

My sarcasm detector is confused.

If this is a truthful post, you should come around my way and meet my wife. You guys would get along well. Careful though, she comes with a mortgage.

[mph4ever]

Still no rail to JFK or Laguardia, though there are buses as well as mandatory cab fare to both of the NYC airports, but there is a rail service to Newark airport in Jersey, which is 20 minutes from NYC assuming there's no traffic.

you can get a heathrow express train that will get you city centre non stop in 15 minutes. you can get a tube, with stops, but as soon as you meet the first interconnection that you can get anywhere in the greater london area with ease.

For travel outside of NYC, we have a Metro North train commuter train service that pulls into Grand Central Terminal for getting to the suburbs out of New York City and into Westchester County, all the way up to Rockland County, as well as a Railroad out of Penn Station to Jersey, and one to Long Island.

sounds simlar to the major stations in londown ehading out in different directions. i have to say that just aboutwhere in the greater london area is easily accessible by train. i used to live in north london and worked in the far south east, a 25 minute tube ride, a single change at waterloo and i was in wrok within the hour. ran on time nearly everytime too.

If you live in NYC there is really no reason to own a car at all. Buses and trains everywhere, and most if not all public transportation service is within walking distance.

same as london then i guess but they forced the issue with congestion charges.

Subways are still filthy, and the service has gotten worse, while the price has gone up. They get sued a lot, and the MTA's union consistently mismanage funds as there is a constant 40% of the workforce out on made up disability claims from faking injuries. I'm sure 10% are legit, but no one seems able to prove it.
another shining example of the power of the unions

[Raayl]

SUV's are pointless

pickup trucks are not

SUVs on average cost about 20,000 dollars more than pickups

only difference is a few hundred dollars for a back cab and seating

ya omg has a point

[Iskandar]

give me the best looking car I can afford i want everyone to know im very successful

gas mileage doesn't matter to me but neither does the engine. just looks and the electronics inside.The worst part is that I don't doubt you're serious.

[JohnXDoe3]

wtf is going on itt? cars are good :)

oh and SUV's aren't cars. just to address some prior discussion i am interested in. they are motor vehicles and are similar. but not a car

somehow Detroit convinced the American buying public they wanted them instead of a really good car because they could be built on crude outdated truck platforms which led to high profit margins for the auto companies

but yeah cars are useful. i say we keep 'em

[beso negro]

The worst part is that I don't doubt you're serious.

yea but i deserve everything I have it's not like im some idiot getting lucky on wall street

instead i'm engineer making money doing important things. my current job is writing programs for cancer research scientists

[Iskandar]

yea but i deserve everything I have it's not like im some idiot getting lucky on wall street

instead i'm engineer making money doing important things. my current job is writing programs for cancer research scientistsYou have every right to spend your own money stupidly.

[1338 h4x0r]

It's not hard. Think about every single reasons anyone would buy an SUV without being cynical and immature

Whenever I see an SUV as I'm walking down the street, I take a look on the inside. There's usually one or two people on the inside and no heavy cargo.

I'd be surprised if the majority of SUV owners actually needed them.

Wait until you're an adult, maybe you'll get it without me having to waste my time.

**** you. You claimed there are "several hundred" legit reasons for someone to use an SUV. I called you on your bullshit; the burden of proof is on you.

[Iskandar]

He was exaggerating, obviously.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://books.google.com/books?id=JM6sNd1a5XsC&pg=PA68

Price elasticity of demand for SUVs estimated to be -2.5

(Which confirms my suspicion that they are generally nothing but penis enhancement tools.)

[Raayl]

http://books.google.com/books?id=JM6sNd1a5XsC&pg=PA68

Price elasticity of demand for SUVs estimated to be -2.5

(Which confirms my suspicion that they are generally nothing but penis enhancement tools.)

even though 99% of the people i see driving them are women

[1338 h4x0r]

*penis envy satisfiers

[Raayl]

*penis envy satisfiers

i dont disagree with you SUVs are pointless symbols of wealth and decadence

[Iskandar]

Lots of vehicles are.

Lots of possessions in general are.

[Raayl]

Lots of vehicles are.

Lots of possessions in general are.

yeah thats why i don't have an expensive elaborate vehicle or a lot of possessions i actually make it a point to live very lightly thanks

[Iskandar]

yeah thats why i don't have an expensive elaborate vehicle or a lot of possessions i actually make it a point to live very lightly thanksK sweet me too.

Except food. I spend a lot on food.

[Raayl]

K sweet me too.

Except food. I spend a lot on food.

do you spend a lot on healthy and clean food? thats the important part

cheap food in the end costs more in health care

[Iskandar]

do you spend a lot on healthy and clean food? thats the important part

cheap food in the end costs more in health careI know and I do.

[Raayl]

I know and I do.

good man

[Iskandar]

And I don't drive.

[Raayl]

well i have to drive because i live in america but were i in a place in europe with high population density of course i wouldnt

[Iskandar]

I live in Canada which has like three cities so.

[Smokey D]

But why would you ever leave those cities.

[Raayl]

dude i'd love to not have to drive i HATE cars and people who worship them but alas i have no choice

when i go to law school hopefully i'll live close enough that i don't have to drive.

[1338 h4x0r]

well i have to drive because i live in america

#1 reason I have to leave AmeriKKKa

[Iskandar]

But why would you ever leave those cities.Never, that's the point.

[Raayl]

#1 reason I have to leave AmeriKKKa

where do you live?

[1338 h4x0r]

Pennsylvania

"Location: 宾夕凡尼亚州"

[Iskandar]

What's the Chinese for "we can't read Chinese and are too lazy to use a translator". If I lived in Vancouver I could consult one of many native speakers, but I don't.

[Raayl]

All I see are little boxes of X code cause my computer is so advanced it has realized chinese is an obsolete language

[1338 h4x0r]

What's the Chinese for "we can't read Chinese and are too lazy to use a translator". If I lived in Vancouver I could consult one of many native speakers, but I don't.

I didn't tell him to use a translator

Just drawing attention to the fact that the characters in my Location: field mean "Pennsylvania"

GOD Alex

Also: 我们看不懂汉语，懒得甚至不愿用翻译软件

[Iskandar]

Subtext, Chris.

[1338 h4x0r]

wat

[GorgeousGabe]

yeah thats why i don't have an expensive elaborate vehicle or a lot of possessions i actually make it a point to live very lightly thanks

Less is more, my friend

This is something I try to figure out as best I can

It's really more respectable in my eyes to be able to live happily with less stuff, than it is to have lots and lots of expensive and useless **** just because you can afford it

[DBoons Ghost]

**** you. You claimed there are "several hundred" legit reasons for someone to use an SUV. I called you on your bullshit; the burden of proof is on you.

I accept that and deserve it but I was exaggerrating.

There are still very valid reasons for anyone to own an SUV, and you should seperate the fact that there are SUVs that aren't gas guzzling status symbols.

[1338 h4x0r]

The price elasticity of demand for SUVs suggest that they aren't super-duper necessary vehicles overall

Also they're extremely ugly and should be covered in tarps or something that conceal their ponderous outline

[DBoons Ghost]

The price elasticity of demand for SUVs suggest that they aren't super-duper necessary vehicles overall

Also they're extremely ugly and should be covered in tarps or something that conceal their ponderous outline

You can use that same approach for a lot of the automobiles and find the same results. I mean, that's one way to make an approach at proving SUVs aren't super necesarry but they make life easier to those who choose to go that route. Plus when are those numbers from? We've been in a weak economy with fluxuating gas prices for years now. Not the best time to pull numbers?

And we still haven't gotten past the SUV moniker without delving a little deeper into the various classes within the SUV label. You just keep saying SUV but in that class is a Hummer, and a Jeep Liberty.. two vastly different automobiles. Caddilac Escalade versus Ford Edge. Can you at least acknowledge there is a difference?

So, maybe they aren't super-duper necesarry, but they might be super-duper handy. Or maybe somewhat necesarry if you made a chart with super-duper being the highest level of need, and the lowest was something along the lines of couldn't-care-lesserer?

I am not against people being less wasteful. I am not against people being more conservative. I am not really clear on the end result.

We get away from oil and move to.. eletricity?

So Uncle Sam gives Tesla a half a billion dollars to make an electric car, yet America's production of electricity is almost as expensive as oil. Yeah maybe it's greener assuming it's all coal producing electricity, but my electric bill is 400 bucks a month. Imagine if I had to charge 2 cars every night?

So we take the power away from the evil rich oil men and give it to someone else?

[mph4ever]

So we take the power away from the evil rich oil men and give it to someone else?


thats a very interesting point. there is no such thing as a cheap replacement for any of the utilities that we recieve. oil is no different but wait until they have cars that we can charge at home, that would be like each of us getting our own gas pump, nirvana for the power companies. we'd be like alcoholics on intravenously fed vodka, never going to take that needle out.

[DBoons Ghost]

thats a very interesting point. there is no such thing as a cheap replacement for any of the utilities that we recieve. oil is no different but wait until they have cars that we can charge at home, that would be like each of us getting our own gas pump, nirvana for the power companies. we'd be like alcoholics on intravenously fed vodka, never going to take that needle out.

That's exactly it. I mean, General Electric are all of a sudden touting greener ways of doing things. Al Gore is pushing this agenda. Al Gore owns a lot of stock in GE. Soon Tesla will be public and whoever owns the controlling stock will push that agenda too.

Everyone's falling for it.

They will never give us that power I fear.

In other news, we got these in NYC now.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/06/29/2009-06-29_newest_bus_gives_you_service_with_a_smile.html

[mph4ever]

between that and the high cost of battery technology with the type of cells they are using then it will be a long time before its cheap. and they will only really shift to it when they have figured out the next wave of greener technology and play on our conscience once more to make the move to the new improved eco friendly expensive earth saving technology. like all the kids on here dissing suvs and cars, pre programmed for the next wave of change, fools

i wonder how long that bus will remain smiling in new york?

[GorgeousGabe]

You can use that same approach for a lot of the automobiles and find the same results. I mean, that's one way to make an approach at proving SUVs aren't super necesarry but they make life easier to those who choose to go that route. Plus when are those numbers from? We've been in a weak economy with fluxuating gas prices for years now. Not the best time to pull numbers?

And we still haven't gotten past the SUV moniker without delving a little deeper into the various classes within the SUV label. You just keep saying SUV but in that class is a Hummer, and a Jeep Liberty.. two vastly different automobiles. Caddilac Escalade versus Ford Edge. Can you at least acknowledge there is a difference?

You are honestly using escalades and hummers as examples to defend SUVs. . .?

We get away from oil and move to.. eletricity?

So Uncle Sam gives Tesla a half a billion dollars to make an electric car, yet America's production of electricity is almost as expensive as oil. Yeah maybe it's greener assuming it's all coal producing electricity, but my electric bill is 400 bucks a month. Imagine if I had to charge 2 cars every night?

So we take the power away from the evil rich oil men and give it to someone else?

Hahaha! I'm so glad you asked.

1) no wars have to be fought to secure this resource. honestly this is a reason that nobody has mentioned yet but it's HIGHLY relevant
2) electricity can be produced in a MYRIAD of green ways. you can even provide it yourself if you are even a little bit resourceful
3) 400 a month + 2 electric cars. . MINUS what you spend on gas
4) the technology will only get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. . . gas prices will continue to rise as we near peak oil

shall I go on?

[DBoons Ghost]

Don't go on.

I really wish you could give me the courtesy of reading my posts and at least trying to comprehend the words before replying half-witted and ignorantly without providing me anymore information then I already have.

Something tells me you're too stupid to post in this forum. We had an ongoing discussion in which you grabbed a few words out of context and replied.

Nothing is worse. You fail. Go away.

[GorgeousGabe]

I will if you can tell me why any of the facts I just gave you are for any reason illegitimate or irrelevant

You're just pissed off because you keep pulling **** out of your *** and people keep calling you out on it

[ridethelib]

he wasn't using hummers and escalades as a defense for suv's he was simply stating that SUV is a blanket term that covers many non-economical options as well as more feasible, economical options, a la jeep liberty gabe sometimes you are kinda dum

[DBoons Ghost]

I will if you can tell me why any of the facts I just gave you are for any reason illegitimate or irrelevant

You're just pissed off because you keep pulling **** out of your *** and people keep calling you out on it

Lol, wrong.

Dude please.. go back to the L&R thread. I'm so not pissed off. You keep trying to "call me out" but you keep failing. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'd be happy to debate you, so long as you don't suck.

Also, your assertions on electricity are beyond off.

[DBoons Ghost]

I cannot access my electric bill from here. I will prove to you how stupid you are when I get home. I will prove exactly how much per watt I pay. Tesla has given us some details on how many watts these batteries will require to charge. We can do simple cost analysis. I will prove I am correct, and you aren't.

Then, we can also compare the cost to run a propane generator, which I also own, since our electric infrastructure in NY at least, is in shambles and dies three times a year on average, and also cost analysis back to back and then we'll prove it's no more cost effective then gasoline. Our power lines are above ground in most suburban areas, and ice blows a transformer every winter. Summer, we use too much as is, but that's not even the point of this, you moron.

We can also show all the people that the electric company is no more efficient then any other means.

I mean tommorrow. TOMMORROW. Not when things get delevoped. If electric cars came out next year, or in 5 years, it won't work.

[Iskandar]

Children, play nicely in the sandbox.

[DBoons Ghost]

Children, play nicely in the sandbox.

Dude I'm trying.

The sandbox needs more comprehensive instructions so I don't have to suffer Gabe's idiocy.

We were having a perfectly civil discussion prior to his douchebaggery.

[GorgeousGabe]

EVEN SO

This is only the case because better technology for green electricity has not been pursued to the extent that gasoline driven cars have been! You're saying it would be MORE EXPENSIVE if the system was switched. Guess again, if electric cars became the standard, the technology would ensure that you wouldn't have to pay as much as you have to now to own an electric car.

How is that a bad thing??

How is it a bad thing that we won't have to deal with nations with highly questionable politics to ensure our oil clogged arteries flow smoothly?

How is it a bad thing that we could take polluting gas engines off the road and replace them with electric powered vehicles?

Yes but there are still 'hundreds of reasons' to own an SUV (another really stupid claim you made that you were called out on) and the MERE 20% of carbon emissions that vehicles are responsible for obviously does not warrant any 'whining' over the matter on my part

But, yeah I am an idiot. I mean compared to your brazen display of intelligence and reason, what the **** do I know?

[DBoons Ghost]

None of it is a bad thing.

I'm not trying to state any of it is bad.

I am making a case for the fact that the issue has been overblown, and overhyped. The automobile industry, namely SUVs and "soccer moms" as the blind masses love to spew, has been wrongly attacked as a culprit in this. Many battery producing companies like Tesla have been lobbying for years to get their share, not because they want to make a greener world, but so they can cash in on stupid kids like you.

Just as the issue with SUVs has been overblown and overhyped. Luxury sedans use more gas then SUVs. No one attacks BMW for making the least fuel efficient car ever, the 750i. No one gets on them. Just soccer moms and SUVs as if all SUVs are Hummers.

Most SUVs are 4 and 6 cylinder engines. No one has been able to "call me out" on that one have they?

I am all for ridding the world of the oil depedency at any cost, save moving from one dependency to another. Another utility already monopolized, but you wouldn't know because your mom and dad pay your bills, or don't they? You dorm? You still live at home? You know nothing about the reality of the situation. The cost to upgrade the entire country's electric grid to make all this electric car stuff a reality. Think they're gonna do it for free? Out of the kindness of their hearts? What do you care? You're a leech who knows nothing. Of course you don't care.

You're a moron if you don't think Con Edison is going to be happy to spend billions switching over to green electricity production at no cost to you. You're crazy if you think I want to move from one monopolized power source to another. You're a naive idiot if you don't think they'll freeze prices, and not raise prices if we move from oil dependency to electric dependency. Con Ed raises monthly bills if they have to repair anything anywhere. But they'll upgrade their entire infrasctructure for free because some clueless hipster on a forum board said so.

You're talking out of your behind kiddo. I'm all on board with care for the environment, and I practice all I can to do my part, but I'm not stupid like you.

This will not work, and if the government maintains control of GM and produces green cars, no one will buy them. It will fail. They have to spend trillions on infrastructure to even get to that point, and no one has produced anything close to a practical solution that is easy to implement and cheaper and more green then good ol' gas burning cars.

[GorgeousGabe]

Many battery producing companies like Tesla have been lobbying for years to get their share, not because they want to make a greener world, but so they can cash in on stupid kids like you.

If you are selfishly doing good, you are still doing good. . .

Just as the issue with SUVs has been overblown and overhyped. Luxury sedans use more gas then SUVs. No one attacks BMW for making the least fuel efficient car ever, the 750i. No one gets on them. Just soccer moms and SUVs as if all SUVs are Hummers.

Oh please. I think they're all stupid.

I think the big argument is primarily against SUVs because SUVs are marketed down the throats of American people as this 'magic bullet' car that you can get to fix all of your automotive needs, nevermind the fact that it is a highly unnecessary tool in the hands of most people

I am all for ridding the world of the oil depedency at any cost, save moving from one dependency to another. Another utility already monopolized, but you wouldn't know because your mom and dad pay your bills, or don't they? You dorm? You still live at home?

....no, they don't, and no, I don't. I don't earn my money but it's my money and I will spend it myself, nobody pays my bills for me. I try to live as cheap as possible so that I can afford to take my band to the next level

But they'll upgrade their entire infrasctructure for free because some clueless hipster on a forum board said so.

And people get bent out of shape when the idea of government regulation is proposed!!!

This will not work, and if the government maintains control of GM and produces green cars, no one will buy them. It will fail. They have to spend trillions on infrastructure to even get to that point, and no one has produced anything close to a practical solution that is easy to implement and cheaper and more green then good ol' gas burning cars.

The technology is getting closer and closer and closer. If the push hasn't been working so far then it shouldn't be a push, it should be a ****ing shove.

Corporations, especially oil companies, have had far too loud a voice in politics. It is time for that road to come to an end. Free market my ***- I for one do not want to sit idly by and watch as the invisible hand drives our planet into the ground. Honestly, it is more important than business OR politics.

Car and oil companies should HAVE TO legally abide to standards that are totally unrealistic in contrast to how they have run thus far. . . the standard that has been established is the one that is in truth unrealistic.

[Freiheit]

idk we use oil to manufacture pretty much everything so just concentrating on cars to end our dependency on foreign oil is too narrow of an approach.

[mph4ever]

thankfully for everyone we don't use whales anymore

[GorgeousGabe]

idk we use oil to manufacture pretty much everything so just concentrating on cars to end our dependency on foreign oil is too narrow of an approach.

This is also true- we need to stop using plastic bottles and plastic bags and stop packaging everything in copious amounts of plastic and stop manufacturing stupid ****ing useless things out of 'cheap' plastic

Plastic is not as 'cheap' as it seems, when you consider its long term effect on the environment

[DBoons Ghost]

The technology is getting closer and closer and closer. If the push hasn't been working so far then it shouldn't be a push, it should be a ****ing shove.

Corporations, especially oil companies, have had far too loud a voice in politics. It is time for that road to come to an end. Free market my ***- I for one do not want to sit idly by and watch as the invisible hand drives our planet into the ground. Honestly, it is more important than business OR politics.

Car and oil companies should HAVE TO legally abide to standards that are totally unrealistic in contrast to how they have run thus far. . . the standard that has been established is the one that is in truth unrealistic.

Well thanks for not insulting me this time.

This part I quoted. This chicken little routine. Have you done any significant research to both sides? You say shove. Do you have any concept of what that entails? Do you care?

I mean, if you honestly believe there is an invisible hand driving the planet into the ground, then there is no point discussing this.

I think it's funny you think oil companies and "corporations" have had too loud a voice in politics.

Follow the trail dude. Do some research. Check what corporations have paid lobbyists though the government. See who has given the most money over the last 10 years.

I promise it will open your eyes.

[DBoons Ghost]

This is also true- we need to stop using plastic bottles and plastic bags and stop packaging everything in copious amounts of plastic and stop manufacturing stupid ****ing useless things out of 'cheap' plastic

Plastic is not as 'cheap' as it seems, when you consider its long term effect on the environment

Right.. because the Airline industry is awesome.

GM stopped giving tons of money to lobby Congress. All of a sudden the SUVs are evil!

Lockheed, Boeing, Grumman.. all in the top 10 spenders.

I wonder if there's any connection? Gee.

[GorgeousGabe]

You don't have to get me started down that road. I am not in the business of comparing evils. We're discussing cars, we are not discussing the other horrible corporations who have been pulling major weight in the political world right now. I'll gladly have that discussion another day.

And yes, I am sure that I would be surprised by who pays who to lobby for who, there are lots of evil little surprises hidden for us all to discover

[Light Flantastic]

world has to end some day i dont get why all you whiny ****s want to delay it

[pedro durruti]

yeah but it's not going to end any time soon

[DBoons Ghost]

I want to make sure you guys are all aware that in 10 years you'll be crying about the cost of electricity. The electric companies are drooling.. waiting to prey on the stupid people.

[ridethelib]

well fortunately where i live the power producing infrastructure is owned by the public and provides power on the cheap so yay

[Frankie-C!]

yeah but that's socialised energy and socialists all try and sell chinese propaganda and gay porn to your kids and probably drugs

[ridethelib]

whatever its cheap provides a ton of jobs and we sell like 85% of our power to cali so it makes a lot of money too

[Iskandar]

Nuclear power is cheap and efficient.

[P13]

and when it fails it fails catastrophically, no dicking around

[Light Flantastic]

when we work out fusion power we'll be cool until the human race dies out dont worry

[ridethelib]

yeah i mean it shouldn't be hard just spray water on the reactors to cool them down then use the subsequent steam to create even more power and sell it to cali

[Light Flantastic]

california is broke from spending too much money on gay marriage i dont think they can afford electricity

[Aaron]

:lol:

[wartomods]

It is not funny it is the truth. Damn you terminator.

[Aaron]

Come out of the closet, if you want to live.

[ridethelib]

california is broke from spending too much money on gay marriage i dont think they can afford electricity

which is why they need to legalize marijuana and tax it

[Light Flantastic]

they need to legalize marijuana i dont know about taxing it

or you know they could just fix their retarded economic policy and they wouldnt be bankrupt in the first place

[1338 h4x0r]

If there's anything we need, it's LESS regulation

Regulation got us into this awful mess!

[GorgeousGabe]

I want to make sure you guys are all aware that in 10 years you'll be crying about the cost of electricity. The electric companies are drooling.. waiting to prey on the stupid people.

Then build your own solar panels or wind turbines

[1338 h4x0r]

Nah, the status quo in technology is all that every was or ever will be. It's never changed and it never will.

When you young scrubs grow up a little and learn about the real world, you'll figure out that having owned several houses and having made a few more trips around the sun trumps everything anyone else says

[Light Flantastic]

Regulation got us into this awful mess!
well i'd invite you to disprove that the actions of the fed are largely to blame for bubbles but i know you prefer to resort to red herrings so thats cool

[DBoons Ghost]

Then build your own solar panels or wind turbines

I had solar panels on my old house. On the roof of my garage and the roof of the house. It saved me around 500 bucks a year when all was said and done, and honestly it heated my pool, which was pretty awesome. I don't think they generate enough electricity all year round in NY for this to be a valid replacement for what Con Edison provides.

Solar panels are expensive, and they require expensive maintenence a few times a year. If it never rained or snowed, I'd be in a better position to say honestly how awesome they were.

I think in 20 years given the proper infrastructural changes, it will all work out just fine.

[DBoons Ghost]

Nah, the status quo in technology is all that every was or ever will be. It's never changed and it never will.

When you young scrubs grow up a little and learn about the real world, you'll figure out that having owned several houses and having made a few more trips around the sun trumps everything anyone else says

:thumb:

[wang masta flex]

... and they require expensive maintenence a few times a year.

really? i've never owned or maintained solar panels but i thought they were supposed to be pretty free of maintenance, requiring minimal attention only once every few years. what sort of maintenance would they require and how much?