Rock/Metal Production

[Det_Nosnip]

Not sure if there are any other amateur producer enthusiasts out there, but I thought I'd see if I could get a thread going on production, with a rock/metal focus. This could get heated, as metal especially operates on both extremes of the production value scale (from crystal clear hollywood to albums literally recorded on a tape recorder). Try to keep it positive!

For me, the production of an album can totally make or break it for me...although there are quite a few poorly produced albums with great music on them, all of them tend to be "acquired tastes" for me. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle when it comes to squeaky clean vs tape recorder production; I tend to place clarity at the top of my priority list, but albums that are over-produced tend to sound really boring to me.

One metal producer that I really admire is Frederik Nordstrom, who runs Studio Fredman in Gothenburg. Frederik produced many of the classic "Gothenburg" melodic death acts and managed to get some pretty awesome mixes. At the Gates' "Slaugher of the Soul" was a great example of a well produced metal album IMO. Andy Sneap is another big name in metal who's done some great work as well.

Prog rock is one genre of music that tends to be horribly produced (sterile, lifeless, no ambience whatsoever), but Steven Wilson tends to break that mold really well. I really like how SW is able to get clear mixes without sacrificing too much in terms of overtones and natural ambience. Anyone who has tried to record something will tell you that the more layers you throw onto a track, the harder it gets to EQ, but Wilson seems to pull it off. He's ocassionally even let a few things get slightly buried in the mix in order to preserve ambience and dynamics, which IMO was the case with Opeth's Blackwater Park album.

So - talk about what producers you like, what albums you believe have good production, etc. If anybody has any know how and wants to share, that would be even better! Right now, my goal is to work on learning how to create different moods/atmospheres with production (as opposed to having 1 template for everything). Any ideas?

[Ventriloquist]

When saying lifeless, no ambiance for prog rock I hope you don't mean the classic bands(Caravan, Camel etc.). Agree on SW.

[alytee123]

I understand what you mean about the 70's Prog Rock style of production but I think there are quite a number of exceptions; King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant. To each his own though I suppose. This is actually an area of music im just getting really focused on and want to explore deeper.

Fredrik Nordstrom and Andy Sneap have produced some fantastic sounding albums in their own rights. I really like Andy's work with Nevermore. In comparison to their early albums he really made them have more clarity and heaviness. Devin Townsend is another exceptional producer. He can make an album sound heavy as hell and come to life out of the speakers with plenty of layers but still keep clarity, and then at the other end of the spectrum create softer ambient music. Examples would be Alien as the former and his recent album Ki to represent the latter.

[Bleekill]

I tend to like Steve Albini's style of production. I like the raw, live and intense sound he gets. He records some great bands, Neurosis, High on Fire, Mono, Weedeater, OM and Made Out of Babies are probably my favorites.

[Shattered_Future]

Mono has fairly poor production values though...they would definitely benefit from a layer of polish.

I feel like metal production is often taken WAY too far in its clarity.

[Jondur]

One metal producer that I really admire is Frederik Nordstrom, who runs Studio Fredman in Gothenburg. Frederik produced many of the classic "Gothenburg" melodic death acts and managed to get some pretty awesome mixes. At the Gates' "Slaugher of the Soul" was a great example of a well produced metal album IMO.

100% agree. Slaughter of the Soul was possibly the last death metal album I heard with kick drums that actually sounded like kick drums!

I think he also did Arch Enemy's "Stigmata" which is an ace production - much darker than any of their other stuff.

Ive been amazed recently how certain producers can lose that edge somewhat. An example being Mags at Academy Studios. Check out Primordial "Spirit the Earth Aflame" or Solstice "New Dark Age" and then compare it to the last two My Dying Bride Albums. The new stuff just sounds terrible - far too clinical. The difference has been moving to Pro Tools and using PODS to record the guitars whereas before they were 100% analogue. My old band even recorded two EPs there and the first sounds much better despite spending twice as long on the second and us all having much better kit. I'm not a complete luddite and blaming it on Pro Tools but there is a major difference in sound between the two eras.

[Det_Nosnip]

There's something to be said for that, for sure. The problem is that digital is SO much cheaper a route to go...heck, with a POD you can record some pretty bitchin guitar tracks without even having to buy an amp!

A lot of it probably comes from the artist's input as well...Fredrik tracked Slaughter of the Soul, but he also produced a few later era Dimmu Borgir albums. :eek:

When saying lifeless, no ambiance for prog rock I hope you don't mean the classic bands(Caravan, Camel etc.). Agree on SW.

I actually was more referring to the 90's/2000's era bands...IE: Dream Theater. :p

I guess Rush tended to be a bit dead in their production as well, but DT, Spock's Beard, etc are the ones that really irk me.

[Si1v3RfaNg]

I think the production on Meshuggah's Obzen is literally PERFECT. Not even joking... everything can be heard really when and it all sounds wonderful.

[indietrashrock]

I like punk rock.

[Det_Nosnip]

That's cool.

[iranscam]

Brian Paulson: Gregor Samsa's "55:12" / Slint's "Spiderland"

Also produced for Polvo, Archers of Loaf, Dinosaur Jr., Superchunk, Wilco, and many more that I can't think of right now. Basically everything he does works for what the band is trying to accomplish.

[bringonthebreakdown]

the biggest whim in modern metal production is bad drum sampling tbh. people need to relearn how to tune drums. srsly

[easylee]

lots of layers of distorted guitars + tons of compression + clicky kicks = Fkknn BruutTAallll

[Det_Nosnip]

the biggest whim in modern metal production is bad drum sampling tbh. people need to relearn how to tune drums. srsly

Or not use drum samples. :p If you're actually talking about tuning and not sampling, the problem is that many drumkits are tuned/eq'd (more often) a certain way so that they can fit in the mix. This means bringing down the tone (which gets buried by distorted guitars anyways) and bringing up the attack.

[easylee]

u dont know **** dog, ok for 1 u cant even tune drums they dont have strings. and 2 im pretty sure ive been playing drums longer then both of u so yeah. oh and my uncle is an engineer

[Si1v3RfaNg]

The production for drums on Planetary Duality gave the drums such power... same thing with South of Heaven.

[Det_Nosnip]

^^ Yeah...a lot of Lombardo's sound comes from how he plays, though...that's why he's the best!

u dont know **** dog, ok for 1 u cant even tune drums they dont have strings. and 2 im pretty sure ive been playing drums longer then both of u so yeah. oh and my uncle is an engineer

Lol...not likely. My guess is that the number of years you've been playing is in single digits, much like your IQ.

For one, you most certainly CAN tune drums...you just can't tune them to a specific pitch.

[/pointlessly arguing with a troll]

[iamtherobots]

I like the production on Fetish by The Boy Will Drown, hearing the bass in metal is cool.

[Si1v3RfaNg]

Yeah bass should be heard more often in metal...

[Bleekill]

Listen to some Big Business

[Moon Flavor]

I don't know much about individual producers or really the process that goes into production.

But far as perfectly produced metal albums go, I would put Prowler In the Yard by Pig Destroyer near the top of my list. Upon first listen it would sound lo-fi to the average listener, but it fits the music so well. The drums really pound, especially on songs like Hyperviolet when they're meant to stand out more. The guitar is clear and every note is audible but it still maintains a dirty garage-ish tone (which I'm near certain was on purpose and not due to lack of funds or time put in). And their singer has never sounded better. Also most importantly, the mix sounds very full and the lack of bassist is definitely not something you would notice at all.

It's basically the perfect balance between rawness and clarity

[Si1v3RfaNg]

I still think Obzen's production rapes anything else in the buisness.

[Bleekill]

Clear crisp production may be good for certain styles of metal/rock but more times than not I prefer the raw stuff.

[betacortex]

^^ Yeah...a lot of Lombardo's sound comes from how he plays, though...that's why he's the best!



Lol...not likely. My guess is that the number of years you've been playing is in single digits, much like your IQ.

For one, you most certainly CAN tune drums...you just can't tune them to a specific pitch.

[/pointlessly arguing with a troll]

Actually you can tune them to a certain pitch... Listen to Danny Carey's drums on Lateralus (specifically Reflection)

But yes the guy that you were originally responding to is an idiot

[illmitch]

autopsy - mental funeral has some of my favorite metal production ever

i love the really sludgy, dirty, grimy sounding ****

edit: it should sound like it was recorded in a coffin

[McP3000]

i like really fuzzy, echo like recording for some reason

but to be honest to make blanket statements about recording is retarded. Radiohead's OK Computer would sound retarded with bad production, whereas Have A Nice Life would have almost no atmosphere or power with good production.

it really depends on the mood and atmosphere one's going for. Lots of early prog rock liked that no frills, lifeless tone because they were showing off and masturbating their instruments.

[illmitch]

yeah me too

[Silenius]

Pytten, he did all the old School Norwegian Black Metal stuff, he knows what he's doing.

[Stormrider]

Check out Primordial "Spirit the Earth Aflame"

Such an amazing production.

[McP3000]

i dont like primordial

[RetiredAt21]

Herr Peck knows all about metal production.

[Txus]

Have a Nice Life's production is perfect.

[McP3000]

Have a Nice Life's production is perfect.
for the sound and music they were trying to achieve

but regardless YESYESYESYES

[Txus]

Exactly, and what matters is what they artist is trying to achieve. Like Nadja's production, a lot of people complain because it's terrible but to be honest it fits the music quite well and it even helps the music develope as a whole.

[Det_Nosnip]

Actually you can tune them to a certain pitch... Listen to Danny Carey's drums on Lateralus (specifically Reflection)

But yes the guy that you were originally responding to is an idiot

This is actually an ongoing arguement partially started by things Carey's said, lol. The general consensus is that drums can't be tuned to actual pitches but can be tuned to sound pretty close or at least to reverberate in a way that blends well with melodic instrument tuning.

Intervals you most certainly can do...but with pitches it gets more complicated.

[Jondur]

Bozzio? - certainly makes a decent fist of tuning to pitch. Although if you hear the Bozzio Levin Stevens albums it sounds arse when played at the same time as the guitar and bass.

Tell you whose production I rate (and these are very much at opposite ends of the spectrum): Josh Silver from Type O Negative. Bloody Kisses is just huuuggge! And also the bod from Nasum who died in the tsunami (RIP) did some killer grind stuff - very clear but powerful as hell.

I would rather be roasted over hot coals than listen to any productions from the following: Peter Tatgren from Abyss Studios, Erik Rutan or Billy Anderson (The first two for clicky kick drums and much too sharp overall sound, and the last one for making albums sound like bedroom demos).

[Det_Nosnip]

Bozzio uses a few single-headed concert drums which are tuned to pitch, but his regular toms are used for "implied" melodies. Your description of the Bozzio/Levin/Stevens is exactly why regular drums can't be tuned to actual "pitches;" you can't exactly harmonize in 3rds with them, lol.

Jondur: Rutan produces? I thought he was just a guitarplayer. I agree about Death/black metal clicky bass drums, though...bleh!

[Shattered_Future]

I still think Obzen's production rapes anything else in the buisness.

Almost. The cymbals are WAY too dry and crisp (although I don't know if you could make them different without muddying the sound) and I could have used a more bassy bass (also, probably couldn't muddle the sound).

Honestly, Fiction by Dark Tranquillity is a meisterwork of metal production. Aside from the lame kick drum sound, the whole album is brilliant in a way where not only is everything produced crystal clear, the production actually enhances the mood of the album. Everything on that album is frigid ****ing cold and fantastic.

[pate]

Jondur: Rutan produces? I thought he was just a guitarplayer. I agree about Death/black metal clicky bass drums, though...bleh!

Yeah, he produces full time or something.

[iamtherobots]

I like how fuzzy and lo-fi Chaos Is Me by Orchid is.

[Aaron]

I really hate how [as Cocaine dubbed it in his interview with Devin Townshend] there's a "loudness war" going on, and everyone feels the need to mix albums to be listened to naturally at a huge volume. I don't want to listen to a band with a 12" sub, I want to be still enjoy a mix when it's at through ear-buds. Bass-heavy unbalanced mixes have ruined so many modern albums.

This is actually an ongoing arguement partially started by things Carey's said, lol. The general consensus is that drums can't be tuned to actual pitches but can be tuned to sound pretty close or at least to reverberate in a way that blends well with melodic instrument tuning.

Intervals you most certainly can do...but with pitches it gets more complicated.
Anything that makes a sound has a pitch. Just because it's not "in tune" doesn't mean it's not tuned. If you're consciously changing the pitch of an instrument, then it's tuned.

[Shattered_Future]

On the flip side too, I think there's a ton of bands ("indie" bands seem to do it a lot) that purposely make their music sound lo-fi because it's the hip thing to do. And it ruins a lot of the music that they write.

Production is a very fickle thing. Hanging out with production majors all day definitely puts a very interesting spin on music.

[Crudo]

lol "production majors"

[Aaron]

On the flip side too, I think there's a ton of bands ("indie" bands seem to do it a lot) that purposely make their music sound lo-fi because it's the hip thing to do. And it ruins a lot of the music that they write.

Production is a very fickle thing. Hanging out with production majors all day definitely puts a very interesting spin on music.
I don't mean low-fi vs. high-fi, I mean generally unbalanced mixes.

[McP3000]

I really hate how [as Cocaine dubbed it in his interview with Devin Townshend] there's a "loudness war" going on, and everyone feels the need to mix albums to be listened to naturally at a huge volume. I don't want to listen to a band with a 12" sub, I want to be still enjoy a mix when it's at through ear-buds. Bass-heavy unbalanced mixes have ruined so many modern albums.
i agree, but i come across more albums that lack any sort of bass mix at all making the music seem very dry and flat

[bringonthebreakdown]

Or not use drum samples. :p If you're actually talking about tuning and not sampling, the problem is that many drumkits are tuned/eq'd (more often) a certain way so that they can fit in the mix. This means bringing down the tone (which gets buried by distorted guitars anyways) and bringing up the attack.

also true. most of the time bands just choose awful samples if they trigger certain drums though.

but if you record the drums right you won't really have a problem with them getting lost in the mix
(see the drum recording on Deloused In the Comatorium by the mars volta)


also @ elim

that troll post made me lol so hard

[Crudo]

u dont know **** dog, ok for 1 u cant even tune drums they dont have strings. and 2 im pretty sure ive been playing drums longer then both of u so yeah. oh and my uncle is an engineer

this one?

[bringonthebreakdown]

yeah i lol'd pretty hard at that

[Det_Nosnip]

also true. most of the time bands just choose awful samples if they trigger certain drums though.

but if you record the drums right you won't really have a problem with them getting lost in the mix
(see the drum recording on Deloused In the Comatorium by the mars volta)



Well Volta are a lot more treble happy than your average drop-tuned metal band. His tuning wouldn't necessarily work with Meshuggah. :p

[bringonthebreakdown]

Well Volta are a lot more treble happy than your average drop-tuned metal band. His tuning wouldn't necessarily work with Meshuggah. :p

very true. as far as metal productions go bands choose clicky bass drums with no body as well as very treble-y snares. a lot of times kits as a whole sound great on the recording and then the sample chosen for the snare ruins it completely. it's usually because there's no body to those as well or the tone is awful. it's really a shame.

[Shattered_Future]

Drum tones often end up making or breaking metal albums. Case in point: The Scattering Of Ashes. Blech. It's odd, though...there's plenty of super bass heavy, saturated bands that have perfectly fine drum samples. What causes others to produce drums that sound like complete ***? I know you're not gonna get the greatest drum tone producing a metal record, but shouldn't an engineer be able to hear how badly the drums mix with the record?

[Crudo]

http://i41.tinypic.com/332mhr8.jpg

worst snare sound ever

[Det_Nosnip]

very true. as far as metal productions go bands choose clicky bass drums with no body as well as very treble-y snares. a lot of times kits as a whole sound great on the recording and then the sample chosen for the snare ruins it completely. it's usually because there's no body to those as well or the tone is awful. it's really a shame.

Well, no...what I meant is that the drummer to Volta was able to tune his kit to sound very full/open because his drums aren't competing for frequency space in the way that they would be in a metal band. The guitars/vocals/etc tend to sit very strong in the mid/upper range. If Volta started chugging away open E power chords, they could run into some problems.

"Body" from toms, bass, snare, etc...tends to occupy the same space as distorted electric guitars.

[Aaron]

Drum tones often end up making or breaking metal albums. Case in point: The Scattering Of Ashes. Blech. It's odd, though...there's plenty of super bass heavy, saturated bands that have perfectly fine drum samples. What causes others to produce drums that sound like complete ***? I know you're not gonna get the greatest drum tone producing a metal record, but shouldn't an engineer be able to hear how badly the drums mix with the record?
You keep confusing samples and live drums as the one thing. Sometimes it's a matter of preference for bands/engineers. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean they don't.