do little kids smoke meth in washington?

[iamtherobots]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009371116_pitbull23m.html

Four children between the ages of 11 and 15 used a pit bull to attack two women in SeaTac on Sunday evening after one of the victims questioned the group's treatment of the dog, according to the King County Sheriff's Office.

The girl, who is from Burien, and the boys — ages 11, 12 and 13 — all from White Center, were taken into custody by sheriff's deputies. All four were released to their parents and the dog was seized by King County Animal Control, said county sheriff's spokesman John Urquhart.

A 63-year-old Seattle woman was driving in the 13300 block of Des Moines Memorial Drive when she saw the group of three boys and a girl repeatedly kicking the dog at about 6:30 p.m., according to Urquhart. She asked the children if they might need some help, but a 15-year-old girl told her to mind her own business.

The woman told KING-TV the girl opened the passenger door of her car and attacked her.

"She grabbed me by the hair. She pulled me across the passenger seat by the hair," said the woman, who has asked not to be identified.

The woman said she tried to run away but that the girl kept chasing her and hitting her. Then, one of the boys allegedly ran toward her with the pit bull, which belongs to the girl's family.

"The dog started biting me on my wrist and my left leg," the woman told KING-TV.

It was not clear whether the woman required treatment at a hospital.

Urquhart said the group was abusing the dog, named Snaps, to intentionally make it violent when the first victim intervened.

A 41-year-old Seattle woman who saw the first attack followed the group to nearby North SeaTac Park. There, the girl realized the group was being followed and she head-butted the second woman before punching her in the head and body, Urquhart said.

The three boys accompanying the girl provoked the dog to bite the woman on her head and face while the girl assaulted her, he said. The dog also bit the woman severely on both arms, leaving the flesh of her forearm flayed and the bone visible, Urquhart said.

The 41-year-old woman, who was more seriously injured, was taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, where her condition was not immediately known.

The Burien girl likely will face felony assault charges after attacking the two women, Urquhart said.

The girl had blood on her shoes, Urquhart said, and she also was injured by the dog while she attacked the second woman, but the nature of her injuries was unclear.

The girl also injured her foot from repeatedly kicking the second victim and needed medical attention, Urquhart said.

"I don't know whether that was her blood or the victim's blood," Urquhart said.

Urquhart said the three boys also could face criminal charges. "They were part and parcel to this whole incident — both incidents," he said.

The girl's mother also might face charges for owning an unlicensed dog and letting a pit bull out in public without a muzzle. Both conditions violate local animal-control regulations, and the breed is considered dangerous by the city of SeaTac.

The dog's owner could face up to a $5,000 fine or a year in prison, according to city regulations.

and seriously, the pic of the dog... you can tell that's a tortured animal, poor little guy. :(

[Meatplow]

Yeah, goddamn.

[Correction]

wtf is wrong with people

[ridethelib]

some people's kids

[1338 h4x0r]

I responded

"Time to start washing some hair with hickory shampoo.... some 2 by 4s would be a good start."

You know, I really don't think giving the kids brain damage is going to reform their behavior.

[McP3000]

this is why people should hit their children

[1338 h4x0r]

Too bad the countries where that **** is outlawed have low crime rates

Why rely on facts when you can just do what feels good man?

[Luc214]

hammerkrieg

[1338 h4x0r]

****ing stupid people commenting in that thread

[McP3000]

Too bad the countries where that **** is outlawed have low crime rates

Why rely on facts when you can just do what feels good man?
demonstrate how the **** crime rates have any thing to do with a good spanking or slap across the face, and demonstrate how the lower crime rates have nothing to do with cultural harmony and more to do with your stupid law

[1338 h4x0r]

demonstrate how the **** crime rates have any thing to do with a good spanking or slap across the face

Because inflicting violence teaches violence, derp

This is actually pretty well studied

Here's an example (abstract only)

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/2/441

More:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080201064119/http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/effectsOfCP.php

[Aaron]

this is why people should hit their children
123

[1338 h4x0r]

Hitting children is not only wrong, it also doesn't work

I'm willing to bet those kids' parents whooped their *** plenty

[Aaron]

It does work.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking_menu.htm#stud

Except that it doesn't

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin30.htm

:lol:

damning!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin27.htm

Yeah corporal punishment "works" alright

[RNR]

Whether or not hitting hits deters them is irrelevant. Locking them in a dog kennel for 5 days would too, but such forms of punishment can cause psychological problems, including violence. And if the kid is already angry and violent, where do you think they got it from? Children learn much of their behavior from their parents, and it's especially evident when they're still young.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah well I'm posting actual scientific studies with hard numbers and stuff that represent the growing consensus that corporal punishment has no benefits at the very least

Unfortunately people like to make up their minds a priori: "To hell with the facts, I already have an opinion."

[McP3000]

ugh

[1338 h4x0r]

Unfortunately people like to make up their minds a priori: "To hell with the facts, I already have an opinion."

ugh

Case in point

[Aaron]

Yeah well I'm posting actual scientific studies with hard numbers and stuff that represent the growing consensus that corporal punishment has no benefits at the very least

Unfortunately people like to make up their minds a priori: "To hell with the facts, I already have an opinion."
If a kid is doing some dangerous and you let them continue and there's potential for them to be harmed, that's the same as smacking them before they do something dangerous. Laissez-faire is a concept for economics, not parenting.

[1338 h4x0r]

There are effective ways of disciplining children that don't involve hitting

I think the statistics on this are very, very clear given how much they agree in general sentiments

[Angmar]

Gotta agree with Chris you tend to see the more violent kids come from overly physical and harsh parents.

[easylee]

that aint how its done in texas, boy

[Angmar]

Sorry dude I DIDN'T KNOW!

[Aaron]

Gotta agree with Chris you tend to see the more violent kids come from overly physical and harsh parents.
Yeah but you don't have to use physical discipline for every situation, and not at every age. It's not all or nothing.

[1338 h4x0r]

^^^ or better yet we can follow the results of broad psychiatric consensus and just not hit them

We need to HIT KIDS MORE

IT WORKS

and when they develop antisocial tendencies after we HIT THEM so much and then they GO TO JAIL, there needs to be a STEAM-DRIVEN RAPE PISTON WITH SPIKES TO TURN THEIR WICKED INSIDES TO GELATINOUS PULP OF BLOOD AND ****

(oh and by the way I'm a well-adjusted adult so I know what I'm talking about)

[The Flying Barron]

Back in my country, there used to be beltings all the time, now these days kids talk out too much on their parents cause they don't believe in beltings. It's strange how times have changed. The good old traditions are complicated now. They were simple and worked. No omg if we belt our kids they will grow up as leather face omg!!!

[horseypie]

statistics mean **** all to the individual
seriously, you dont have to be 'overly physical or harsh' if you decide to smack your child. just enough to make them know what they did was wrong and what will happen if they do it again
you dont have to throw them across a room everytime they do something naughty

and haxor can get ****ed with those religiondaily links about treating kids, personally i know my mother used to give me a decent hit when i was bad (i was a bit of a shitty kid i heard when i was young) but i dont go around tormenting dogs to make them violent

[The Flying Barron]

agreed horse dude

[1338 h4x0r]

statistics mean **** all to the individual

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/2/16/633704022647245810-ignorance.jpg

and haxor can get ****ed with those religiondaily links about treating kids, personally i know my mother used to give me a decent hit when i was bad (i was a bit of a shitty kid i heard when i was young) but i dont go around tormenting dogs to make them violent

"There appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems."

i.e., hitting doesn't necessarily imply the development of violence and similar issues, but it makes it more likely across the board

At best hitting is no better than other methods of discipline, at worst, it's much more detrimental

It's just not necessary

Back in my country, there used to be beltings all the time, now these days kids talk out too much on their parents cause they don't believe in beltings. It's strange how times have changed. The good old traditions are complicated now. They were simple and worked. No omg if we belt our kids they will grow up as leather face omg!!!

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

Ah can it Socrates ...... this same **** has been said for years

[fingers mccoy]

but quite often what they did isn't 'wrong' it's just something you don't want them to do

they aren't your property so you have no right to treat them that way

whatsmore i dispute the idea that hitting a kid will show them the error of their ways as opposed to just scaring and humiliating them

and the negative effects of fear and shame on a child are well documented

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah but "statistics mean **** all to the individual" meaning you shouldn't use sound, thoroughly-researched medical advice

Numbers are for dweebs tbh

[Aaron]

^^^ or better yet we can follow the results of broad psychiatric consensus and just not hit them

We need to HIT KIDS MORE

IT WORKS

and when they develop antisocial tendencies after we HIT THEM so much and then they GO TO JAIL, there needs to be a STEAM-DRIVEN RAPE PISTON WITH SPIKES TO TURN THEIR WICKED INSIDES TO GELATINOUS PULP OF BLOOD AND ****

(oh and by the way I'm a well-adjusted adult so I know what I'm talking about)
'cause yeah, we've seen an obvious decrease in violent crime in each successive generation since disciple techniques have become non-physical. :rolleyes:

[1338 h4x0r]

They're low in Northern Europe

Just read the studies I posted please

[easylee]

violent crime has gradually declined since the mid 90s

[horseypie]

far out
im not saying ignore everything and treat your kids like ****, lock them indoors and beat them with a wooden post
just a little slap letting them know dont do that. i have two little cousins right now and my aunt barely ever hits them, but they know that if they do something really wrong that they might get a slap

and the thing i said about statistics was basically saying that if i lived my life by every statistic i heard about i wouldnt be eating potatoes because there is a trend that they lead to life threatening cancer. if you know whats good for your children and youre not neglecting them or not taking care of them properly then you could slap them once every now and then to show guidelines

[1338 h4x0r]

far out
im not saying ignore everything and treat your kids like ****, lock them indoors and beat them with a wooden post
just a little slap letting them know dont do that. i have two little cousins right now and my aunt barely ever hits them, but they know that if they do something really wrong that they might get a slap

It's still not necessary

and the thing i said about statistics was basically saying that if i lived my life by every statistic i heard about i wouldnt be eating potatoes because there is a trend that they lead to life threatening cancer.

Huh

if you know whats good for your children and youre not neglecting them or not taking care of them properly then you could slap them once every now and then to show guidelines

The Sagan children turned out ok, idk

[horseypie]

ok it may not be necessary but either is a lot of things. its a method, use it sparingly if you need to is basically what im saying.
the people that didnt get hit as a child are the arrogant people who mouth off as soon as someone calls them out bragging they know their rights and 'you cant do that' to them. as far as ive seen anyway
and i dont know who the sagan children are anyway so if that makes me ignorant whatever

[fingers mccoy]

but you dont need to that's what not necessary means

the people who got hit as a child might be irrationally convinced that their parents did the right thing in beating them because they're their parents

the point is that anecdotal defence for this kind of thing is what continues to enable abusive parenting because it is unqualified and subjective and we should actually look at the studies for our answers

[The Flying Barron]

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

Ah can it Socrates ...... this same **** has been said for years

strangely enough from antiquity to present, the median was the best age for discipline

[1338 h4x0r]

ok it may not be necessary but either is a lot of things. its a method, use it sparingly if you need to is basically what im saying.

#doesNotUnderstand

the people that didnt get hit as a child are the arrogant people who mouth off as soon as someone calls them out bragging they know their rights and 'you cant do that' to them. as far as ive seen anyway

Yeah just pull data out of your *** ...... are you a certified engineer by the way? I intend to avoid whatever region you're working in.

and i dont know who the sagan children are anyway so if that makes me ignorant whatever

The astronomer Carl Sagan spoke on a number secular humanist issues and was known to oppose corporal punishment

strangely enough from antiquity to present, the median was the best age for discipline

The good ole 12th century

[horseypie]

but you dont need to that's what not necessary means

the people who got hit as a child might be irrationally convinced that their parents did the right thing in beating them because they're their parents

the point is that anecdotal defence for this kind of thing is what continues to enable abusive parenting because it is unqualified and subjective and we should actually look at the studies for our answers

alright i see where youre coming from and in a way i agree, i suppose. i just think that it can be used sparingly to introduce discipline to children without going overboard and introducing violent tendencies that occur in later life, and personally as a parent i will probably end up smacking my child once or twice. that does not make me an abusive parent and it doesnt give people the right to tell me how to discipline my child.
now i know someones going to pick that apart and make me look like chopper reid so w/e


edit:
what does my engineering qualifications have to do with this argument? for the record im only in my second year of study. but im sorry i didnt pull out exact scientific data on the effects of smacking children, if that statement was going to have a profound effect on the way the world works then maybe i would not have written it in the haste that i did

[rasputin]

i am proof that a little bit of an ear pull and a smack here and there breeds good and wholesome people

[1338 h4x0r]

that reminded me of something:

DAWN, n.
The time when men of reason go to bed. Certain old men prefer to rise at about that time, taking a cold bath and a long walk with an empty stomach, and otherwise mortifying the flesh. They then point with pride to these practices as the cause of their sturdy health and ripe years; the truth being that they are hearty and old, not because of their habits, but in spite of them. The reason we find only robust persons doing this thing is that it has killed all the others who have tried it.

:lol:

[DBoons Ghost]

They're low in Northern Europe

Just read the studies I posted please


Intellectualism will save us all!!!

Tell me, if you can, how these studies were conducted?

I agree with you by the way that abusing your children is a road to ruin.

However, the language seems to be confused. Abusing children is terribly wrong. Spanking them is correct.

I happen to be a parent, and I have yet to beat my daughter because, you're right to some extent. There are better and more constructive ways to discipline a child. Sometimes, the only way to make them understand cause and effect is to hit them. So they are prepared when they taunt or brag, that a fellow child may strike them out of anger.

But I really am curious to hear how these studies are conducted, and what data it's based on.

Also, is there any distinction between a "spanking" versus physically abusing a child? Or does the scientific data just generalize? Who is responsible for conducting the study, and why was it conducted?

[ridethelib]

well some people are dumb and think that the occasional spanking is abuse

[DBoons Ghost]

Yeah.. I guess.

I actually sorted through all the links posted. I'm good on this discussion.

[Noku]

Few centuries ago good slave owners beat their slaves and it was done for the benefit of the slave. Then unfortunately we have developed the human rights and other lame things... The beat is always for your own good right?

[JohnXDoe3]

what meth?

[1338 h4x0r]

Intellectualism will save us all!!!

Yeah, derp, a thought-out solution is always better than a gut reaction

Sometimes, the only way to make them understand cause and effect is to hit them. So they are prepared when they taunt or brag, that a fellow child may strike them out of anger.

Proxying for other little children

That's retarded


But I really am curious to hear how these studies are conducted, and what data it's based on.


You claimed to have read them

[DBoons Ghost]

Yeah, derp, a thought-out solution is always better than a gut reaction

If you say so. I'm sure you've learned this based on years of experience, or you can read the studies and numbers and go from there. This situation is not one of intellect. Every child is different. Every personality trait is different. Read studies maybe you can produce a genius child who's self aware right out of the vag.



Proxying for other little children

That's retarded

I hope you choose not to reproduce. Please promise me you'll never have offspring of any kind. If you do and your kid brats out and my kid beats yours to a pulp, you're the type of moron who would sue me or try to bring cops into it. I dislike when wimp pussies try to raise children.


You claimed to have read them

I read them after I made that post because I honestly can't read anymore of your spew then I absolutely have to.

There's a ton of good data in there.

[1338 h4x0r]

Nothing in your post was really worth responding to, but I'll entertain your ranting very briefly: I don't plan to live anywhere near your trashy outpost of the Roman Empire

[DBoons Ghost]

As if that matters.

[1338 h4x0r]

Look at that post of yours I just responded to

Having worked in IT for years, you're probably familiar with the term "garbage in garbage out"

Make a dumb reply, get a dumb reply

[DBoons Ghost]

I meant as if it matters where you raise your kids. Not whether or not you respond to me. You can't afford to live where I do anyway.

You can get the last word in now.

[Smokey D]

If you smacked anyone other then a child, you could be prosecuted/sued for battery.

[1338 h4x0r]

I meant as if it matters where you raise your kids.

Vad med Stockholm?

[Nostalgia]

Yeah, meth is pretty popular here. A lot of it is made in Algona apparently, which is 5 minutes from my house. The area I live in is pretty nice, but it gets progressively worse as you travel down the road, haha.

[Mr. Ron]

idk I don't see whats so wrong about giving your kid a little slap on the *** to shut them up.


Of course, I'm not talking about BEATING, just....spanking. I learned very fast not to do certain things.

[wartomods]

or play with them catch the flying dragon so they can do their homework more happily

[Mr. Ron]

lol reminds me of how they banned dodge ball in my school because it "encouraged violence".

[cobert]

http://www.myspace.com/megameth

Slightly relevant.

My parents didn't hit me at all and I turned out to be an asshole. But a loveable asshole, so it's alright.

[DBoons Ghost]

lol reminds me of how they banned dodge ball in my school because it "encouraged violence".


Those awesome intellectuals! They must have read those studies. We're going from a dumb bunch of workhorses to a smart bunch of pansies.

[BridgeToSolace]

Sometimes, the only way to make them understand cause and effect is to hit them. So they are prepared when they taunt or brag, that a fellow child may strike them out of anger.

Although Haxxor choses to say things as an obnoxious spatula, do you see the value of them receiving this lesson from a peer as opposed to a father?

Do you see the difference in what I'm saying? You daughter loves the **** out of you, and it's much different to learn that you might get hit from you rather than someone else she doesn't particularly have any investment in.

"I better hit my daughter so that a child doesn't!"

Noooooooooo.

Of course, as long as you don't make it part of the routine, you aren't necessarily a bad parent at all. You know, "You get spanked if you don't eat your veggies" is bad parenting while "Stop running into traffic!", while still not the best way to handle the situation, is at least less traumatic. You're probably a great father, but your logic is a little skewed.

And no, I don't have to have a child to have an opinion on this.

"If I had a girlfriend, I don't think I'd hit her..."

"Pfft, don't say that until you have one! They got big mouths, and sometimes you need to pop 'em!"

-

Ever think that dodgeball should be banned because it has little to no recreational value? The fat kids stand in the back and get hit, and then sit down until the next round. It completely misses the group that needs exercise the most. Useless in a physical education scenario.

[Smokey D]

dk I don't see whats so wrong about giving your kid a little slap on the *** to shut them up.


Of course, I'm not talking about BEATING, just....spanking. I learned very fast not to do certain things.

I dunno, I value equality before the law.

When they removed the defence of reasonable force in parenting in NZ, they were pretty careful in how they constructed the law. They banned smacking as a punishment after the fact, but it could still be used to stop a child from hurting themselves or others or being disruptive.

[DBoons Ghost]

Although Haxxor choses to say things as an obnoxious spatula, do you see the value of them receiving this lesson from a peer as opposed to a father?

Do you see the difference in what I'm saying? You daughter loves the **** out of you, and it's much different to learn that you might get hit from you rather than someone else she doesn't particularly have any investment in. "I better hit my daughter so that a child doesn't!" Noooooooooo.

I believe we have a slight misunderstanding. I don't hit my daughter. I have never really hit her out of some means of discipline or lack of patience. I won't elaborate because it would take paragraphs. When she was 2 and 3 and even 4, yeah I spanked her. There is a period before children begin to understand words and their meanings, yet they kinda understand the tone in our voice, yet they still dare, and dare. So when they challenge you, every reaction is different. Every action is different. Every child is different. There is no set rule or guidelines that you can get out of some study. You'll see. All of you will. If you prove me wrong, even better. You won't though. At some point, your child will challenge you. He or she might even try to strike you. Not because they saw you do it. Not because they saw a cartoon do it. It's a natural instinct. I will not wholly embrace it, but I would never wholly subdue it. She already knows how to throw a straight jab, and front kick. She keeps her wrist straight. She's gonna be just fine.

Outside of that, I am not one of those parents, nor is my wife, that tries to beat the kid out of my kid. She's 6. She acts 6. I let her. We both do. To be honest, I haven't had to "discipline" her in a while. She's a good kid now, and a good student. Friendly, kind, sharing, cares about other kids feelings. Knows no bias to anyone. Excellent reading skills. A head for numbers already.. But, I explain to her when she tells me about social situations where taunting, bragging or hitting is involved in school, that she has to expect a reaction for every action. I refuse to handicap my child in that way to appease what academics are doing to these kids, because there are other kids out there that don't subscribe to that newsletter, and probably never will.

Of course, as long as you don't make it part of the routine, you aren't necessarily a bad parent at all. You know, "You get spanked if you don't eat your veggies" is bad parenting while "Stop running into traffic!", while still not the best way to handle the situation, is at least less traumatic. You're probably a great father, but your logic is a little skewed. And no, I don't have to have a child to have an opinion on this. "If I had a girlfriend, I don't think I'd hit her..." "Pfft, don't say that until you have one! They got big mouths, and sometimes you need to pop 'em!"

I will ask for some help explaining with this means. Especially how you go from giving me two laughable scenarios to something about a kid hitting a girl because of what?

I honestly am very insulted you would have the audacity to give me parenting advice. As if either of those scenarios represents any reality at all. I mean, dude. You absolutely 100% do have to have a child to have an opinion. Take your studies and shove them. I immediately discard any of that rubbish until you do have a child of your own. Nieces and nephews and studies don't count. I dropped my first Pediatrician because she didn't have kids. I found a new one who had 3. Best doctor ever. I have a hard time understanding her Chinglish, but she rules and my daughter loves her to death. I don't trust people who would dare give advice about something so important as raising children when they have only ever read a book about it. Even if they were taught by the best parents in the world.



Ever think that dodgeball should be banned because it has little to no recreational value? The fat kids stand in the back and get hit, and then sit down until the next round. It completely misses the group that needs exercise the most. Useless in a physical education scenario.

This one I will gladly admit that you have a point. You know, I had no fat kids in my class. None. No fat girls. My gym teacher found a way to get us all involved and we all loved it. So much we used to play again at recess. I'm admittedly lost and very saddened with what happened and what is currently going on with curriculum in schools. IEvery weakling became a lawyer and this is their revenge. Create a society of useless btiches who have never toughed it out in their lives. It's my opinion that young people are being handicapped by the same nerds who couldn't find the balls to sweat it out. It's great to be smart, but sometimes you have to be tough. We just don't have it anymore. I know I'm a dinosaur and I know you guys are going to mock and make fun of this, yet it doesn't prevent me from saying it all the same.

[fingers mccoy]

when do you ever have to be tough if no one else is tough

dboon i just dont see any valid lessons to be learned in being hit by someone who's supposed to be looking after you

it's incongruous, confusing and resultingly scary and whatsmore it has nothing to do with the wider world - kids get hit by other kids over myriad conflicts irrational or otherwise and that is how a child learns to avoid getting beaten up the parent has nothing to do with it

[DBoons Ghost]

when do you ever have to be tough if no one else is tough

What?

You think I mean like "tough guy" tough, like "I'll kick your butt" tough?

That's not what I mean.

[fingers mccoy]

i figured you meant capable of dominating and controlling a situation or capable of defending yourself or whatever i'd honestly like you to clarify tho cause i'm not entirely sure i understood your point

[Ando!]

Nothing in your post was really worth responding to, but I'll entertain your ranting very briefly: I don't plan to live anywhere near your trashy outpost of the Roman Empire

lol aren't you moving to china

hahaha

[wartomods]

so no one gets my joke

[DBoons Ghost]

dboon i just dont see any valid lessons to be learned in being hit by someone who's supposed to be looking after you

it's incongruous, confusing and resultingly scary and whatsmore it has nothing to do with the wider world - kids get hit by other kids over myriad conflicts irrational or otherwise and that is how a child learns to avoid getting beaten up the parent has nothing to do with it

You're generalizing here. That's the problem. I wish I had an exact scenario to provide you with some means to understand my point. I'm not just "looking after" my child. I'm raising her. I'm influencing her. I'm teaching her. I'm not her friend. I'm her father. She is my responsibility through and through.

It's not confusing when they understand why they were hit. Even if it boils down to "I'm hitting you so you understand your place". I'm sure that will be taken out of context as well. Also, it has everything to do with the wider world, but honestly it boils down to what world you live in. It's not all the same, is it? If someday it is, awesome. I'm there. Count me in. But now, it's not.

If I was being honest, I don't want my child to avoid getting beat up. I want her to properly defend herself. Sometimes, as we've all learned, there's no other way.

I was never hit for something I was confused by. And it's supposed to be scary. It has to be scary. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Mr. Ron]

for the record, I wouldn't spank my daughter if i had one. I couldn't. My son on the other hand? Yes, I could. Mainly because I believe in treating the genders differently.

[fingers mccoy]

legally you are looking after your child and that's certainly the way the kid sees it

my point is that admonitory or preventative violence coming from a parent has nothing to do with the wider world cause a kid doesn't see a parent in the same way as they see the rest of the world

by 'avoid getting beaten up' i mean to not lose in a fight and to be able to prevent it from getting really nasty i didnt mean just to run away i understand that's not realistic

parents really shouldnt be scaring their kids if they're living with them for at least a decade that's just **** for the kid man

but if the kid truly understands the relationship between the punishment and the misbehaviour and feels that they can control themselves in future then I don't think it's actually scary it's just a hazard

just like riding a bike isn't scary if you know how to do it and you know it's your own fault if you get hurt, a kid who recognises a direct and specific causal link between what they've done wrong and what happens as a result is gonna be confident of avoiding that result in the future

i think 'you'll get a slap if you talk back' or anything like that is indirect and arbitrary - it doesn't make sense to me let alone to a child

when i've looked after kids in the past i've noticed the first thing out of their mouths when they feel wronged by a disciplinary action is 'it's not fair' and if a kid doesn't understand why it is fair then I don't think the punishment has any educational value - if you're assuming the role of teacher then you need to make it clear

the thing is i'm aware that parents are gonna hit their kids for many many reasons and not all of them are disciplinary actions

i'm saying that if violence is apparently administered for the purposes of education rather than physical harm the child is gonna read a lot more into it than the discrete and explicit argument offered by the parent because the experience of physical pain does not yield itself particularly well to rational communication

[Mr. Ron]

lol I can tell you that my father "scaring me" kept me out of TONS of bad situations. In fact, I thank him for spanking me once in a great while (it didn't happen a lot).

[fingers mccoy]

well, the same applies to me (tho i never lived with my dad) it's just that getting spanked went on for far too long hurt far too much and made my mum look far too stupid for me to take it seriously and as a result i would just avoid letting her get involved in my personal life

[horseypie]

in all honesty that boils down to good parenting vs bad parenting

plus how would you police outlawing it as a way of discipline, i mean if you really were smacking your child once a year on the very odd occasion the situation called for it there would be no physical proof because you wouldnt leave a mark, if you were then yes that is child abuse and not the right way to do it
and f it was done in public i dont see another parent calling the authorities if you had to discipline your child in the shops or something and it came to a smack. if they went overboard then sure.
to me it seems like it shouldnt be such a black and white issue

[1338 h4x0r]

It's been outlawed in a few countries and society didn't collapse, stop being hysterical

[horseypie]

what, outlawed as in 'if you lay a hand on your child you can be arrested for abuse?'
and im not exactly hysterical either

[1338 h4x0r]

Yes

In pretty decent countries too

Well, no, you're not hysterical but some people are, not saying who

[Smokey D]

lol I can tell you that my father "scaring me" kept me out of TONS of bad situations. In fact, I thank him for spanking me once in a great while (it didn't happen a lot).

Stockholm syndrome is a recognised phenomenon.

plus how would you police outlawing it as a way of discipline, i mean if you really were smacking your child once a year on the very odd occasion the situation called for it there would be no physical proof because you wouldnt leave a mark, if you were then yes that is child abuse and not the right way to do it

Presumably police wouldn't strictly enforce the rule where it wasn't in the public interest, much like they do with pretty much every other crime ever.


and f it was done in public i dont see another parent calling the authorities if you had to discipline your child in the shops or something and it came to a smack. if they went overboard then sure.
to me it seems like it shouldnt be such a black and white issue

Lots of crimes don't get reported it doesn't mean they shouldn't be crimes.

what, outlawed as in 'if you lay a hand on your child you can be arrested for abuse?'
and im not exactly hysterical either

Well, I don't know if it's abuse but it is assault and battery.

[Mr. Ron]

being ridiculous is too

[Smokey D]

What. Are you saying it's not assault and battery?

[Mr. Ron]

What. Are you saying it's not assault and battery?
My father spanking me because I was being stupid? Nope.

[horseypie]

i get what you mean about my first two points so i agree that was a bit ridiculous me bringing that up

and im going to use dboon's posts here as an example, but classifying him spanking his daughter as assault and battery is ridiculous, which is what i think ron meant

edit: to smokey

[Smokey D]

Um. An assault is threatening someone. A battery is striking them.

How is hitting your child not either of these things.

[Strum]

It's been outlawed in a few countries and society didn't collapse, stop being hysterical

all it did was force it behind closed doors, it didn't go anywhere. If anything it's worse.

What's better?

A quick smack in public?

Or the parent building it all up untill they get home?


Outlawing just made it invisible

[1338 h4x0r]

all it did was force it behind closed doors, it didn't go anywhere. If anything it's worse.

What's better?

A quick smack in public?

Or the parent building it all up untill they get home?


Outlawing just made it invisible

lol prove this ridiculous assertion

[Smokey D]

Evidence please.

[Strum]

**** the both of you

evidence how the **** do you think I can prove it grow the **** up not everthing can be debated

****wits

[Smokey D]

So you make a statement which you can't prove and expect it to be useful in a discussion.

[Mr. Ron]

Um. An assault is threatening someone. A battery is striking them.

How is hitting your child not either of these things.
I'm not really concerned with words in this situation, tbqh. Spanking isn't some end of the world thing.

[fingers mccoy]

**** the both of you

evidence how the **** do you think I can prove it grow the **** up not everthing can be debated

****wits

do you even have any anecdotal evidence

was that from experience or anything which might give what you said some interest if not weight

[1338 h4x0r]

I assert that Strum has disproportionately small genitals and I don't have to offer evidence for my assertion, because, after all, not everything can be debated

**** the both of you

evidence how the **** do you think I can prove it grow the **** up not everthing can be debated

****wits

Somebody should have had his *** whupped more as a child

[Smokey D]

I'm not really concerned with words in this situation, tbqh. Spanking isn't some end of the world thing.

I'm not really concerned with breaking the law either.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm not really concerned with breaking the law either.
A light slap on the butt is nothing. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[DBoons Ghost]

Lol, this has gone the way of absurd.

Evidence MUST BE PRESENTED!

PROVE WITH WEBSITE LINKS OR YOU WILL BE DISMISSED.

You guys are scrubs. Absolute weenie scrubs. Does that mean I lose? I resorted to personal insults and I presented no evidence! I will bow my head in shame now.

[Mr. Ron]

wait luke are you in favor of banning contact sports

[horseypie]

I'm not really concerned with breaking the law either.

do you not agree that it is a common sense thing or is everything that black and white? you even said before that police wont enforce the law if its in the publics interest

[fingers mccoy]

Lol, this has gone the way of absurd.

Evidence MUST BE PRESENTED!

PROVE WITH WEBSITE LINKS OR YOU WILL BE DISMISSED.

You guys are scrubs. Absolute weenie scrubs. Does that mean I lose? I resorted to personal insults and I presented no evidence! I will bow my head in shame now.

in strum's case it appears he was just making up stuff

considering you seem to generally position yourself as a realist dont you think it would make sense for him to ground what he said in reality somewhat

especially considering what he said was nonsensical

please don't start being a dick for no reason

[Smokey D]

A light slap on the butt is nothing. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

If you slapped some guy on the street, it would be assault and battery. The only difference here is that the law values strangers more than children.


Evidence MUST BE PRESENTED!

PROVE WITH WEBSITE LINKS OR YOU WILL BE DISMISSED.

You guys are scrubs. Absolute weenie scrubs. Does that mean I lose? I resorted to personal insults and I presented no evidence! I will bow my head in shame now.

Um, I mean it's all well and good to voice an opinion of what might have happened, but to claim that as a matter of fact smacking aka child abuse has been driven underground, I think you have to do better than "
evidence how the **** do you think I can prove it grow the **** up not everthing can be debated"

wait luke are you in favor of banning contact sports

Volenti non fit injuria. There is no injury to the willing.


do you not agree that it is a common sense thing or is everything that black and white? you even said before that police wont enforce the law if its in the publics interest

Right. So if there is discretion built into the system at a lower level, we should grant people equality before the law at the highest level.

[1338 h4x0r]

lol, this has gone the way of absurd.

Evidence must be presented!

Prove with website links or you will be dismissed.

You guys are scrubs. Absolute weenie scrubs. Does that mean i lose? I resorted to personal insults and i presented no evidence! I will bow my head in shame now.

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[Mr. Ron]

If you slapped some guy on the street, it would be assault and battery. The only difference here is that the law values strangers more than children.



Difference is that it serves a minor disciplinary purpose, not just some random act of violence.


If I ground my kid and lock them in their rooms for a few hours am I imprisoning them as well

[horseypie]

Right. So if there is discretion built into the system at a lower level, we should grant people equality before the law at the highest level.

so youre saying that charge people for spanking their child, send them to court and make it up to the judge to decide whether they were abusive?

[BridgeToSolace]

I believe we have a slight misunderstanding. I don't hit my daughter.

I never gleamed from your post that you regularly hit your child or anything. Since I know very little about you or your relationship with your daughter, my posts are moreso a generalization about a proverbial "father and daughter" relationship that has some hitting in it. I apologize if I've caused any personal offense. It's hard to so on the internet, but I don't want any snark or sarcasm in at least this particular paragraph. I've been part of this forum for a long time, and I've come to expect respectable, level headed, posts with an interesting perspective.

A head for numbers already.. But, I explain to her when she tells me about social situations where taunting, bragging or hitting is involved in school, that she has to expect a reaction for every action.


Yes, so do it by hitting your kid!

Why is physical discipline better for your child than alternative methods? Explain how physical involvement isn't an indulgence in your own parental ignorance of not knowing what else do rather than there being no other way.

I will ask for some help explaining with this means. Especially how you go from giving me two laughable scenarios to something about a kid hitting a girl because of what?

What I meant, basically, was that I don't condemn you as a parent or a person if you have hit your child before. It happens.

Working spanking/slapping into the curriculum of child rearing is wrong, however. If spanking is a regular disciplinary measure, then yes, I think you need to do a better job of parenting. To be clear, I don't think you do this.

You absolutely 100% do have to have a child to have an opinion. Take your studies and shove them. I immediately discard any of that rubbish until you do have a child of your own.


If I was talking about the minutia of child rearing, feel free to tell me to shut the **** up. I don't know how to change a diaper, and I can't tell her what stories you should be reading to her at night. Or the morning. Or whenever you read to her.

But this is something bigger than that. This is about psychology and human decency. I don't have to an interrogator to tell you that I don't have to torture a prisoner to get information.

I don't have to have to be married to tell you that it's wrong to hit your wife.

I dropped my first Pediatrician because she didn't have kids. I found a new one who had 3. Best doctor ever. I have a hard time understanding her Chinglish, but she rules and my daughter loves her to death.

What effect does having children have on your medical ability?

You seem to be saying that because this new doctor has children, she can better identify a spot on your son's long that isn't really there? Wot?

Maybe your old doctor was just a poopty doctor, yeh? Or didn't know how to act around kids. I know plenty of parents who aren't good around children either.

I don't trust people who would dare give advice about something so important as raising children when they have only ever read a book about it. Even if they were taught by the best parents in the world.

Yep, the only people who recommend against hitting are childless bastards.

People who write books don't have kids, yeh!

It's great to be smart, but sometimes you have to be tough.

Define tough, and explain why I am a better person when I'm tough.

You mean tough like we used to be? When we were protesting Elvis' minor pelvic thrusts and proclaiming it marked the demise of democracy?

I'm just not sure what you mean. What defines weakling, or useless.

And how it used to be better. This is an entirely different thread, though.

Although that no fat girls thing sounds pretty sweet.

[Smokey D]

Difference is that it serves a minor disciplinary purpose, not just some random act of violence.

If some guy did something on the street which I didn't like and I slapped him in order to punish him, even if it was only a light slap, it would still be assault and battery.


If I ground my kid and lock them in their rooms for a few hours am I imprisoning them as well

Yes. That will be the next thing to correct.


so youre saying that charge people for spanking their child, send them to court and make it up to the judge to decide whether they were abusive?

I doubt cases would frequently come to court, and I would be alarmed if judges could nakedly exercise that sort of discretion. In NZ, where the law was changed in 2007, there has been only one successful prosecution. More likely that the people charged with enforcing the law would exercise discretion before it reached the court stage.

[Mr. Ron]

If some guy did something on the street which I didn't like and I slapped him in order to punish him, even if it was only a light slap, it would still be assault and battery.



Yes. That will be the next thing to correct.



I doubt cases would frequently come to court. In NZ, where the law was changed in 2005, there has been only one successful prosecution. More likely that the people charged with enforcing the law would exercise discretion before it reached the court stage.
lol ok this is getting good


what about harsh language? I mean, think of hurting their emotions! What do you think about harsh language? Is it as bad as light spanking?

[horseypie]

then is everything you said in this thread just 'the law is this, dont do it, but if you do you probably wont be charged for it unless youre throwing a kid across the room'?

[Smokey D]

what about harsh language? I mean, think of hurting their emotions! What do you think about harsh language? Is it as bad as light spanking?

No, there's no legal right not to be offended.

If you threatened to hit them though that'd be assault.

then is everything you said in this thread just 'the law is this, dont do it, but if you do you probably wont be charged for it unless youre throwing a kid across the room'?

Well, that's how the law works in practice yes. I'm not going to be drawn on whether I think that's how it should work.

[fingers mccoy]

lol ok this is getting good


what about harsh language? I mean, think of hurting their emotions! What do you think about harsh language? Is it as bad as light spanking?

that's hardly legally comparable to assault, battery and kidnapping/imprisonment

[Mr. Ron]

well if assault is being threatened then what is harsh language?



I think its sort of silly you guys would want parents dragged into court for this garbage and potentially go to prison for a god damn light smack on the butt.

[fingers mccoy]

give us an example of someone being convicted for using harsh language on an adult and then this'll be relevant

[Mr. Ron]

give us an example of someone being convicted for using harsh language on an adult and then this'll be relevant
hey, if assault is being threatened then why not persecute it?

[BridgeToSolace]

I think its sort of silly you guys would want parents dragged into court for this garbage and potentially go to prison for a god damn light smack on the butt.


From what I can tell, Smokey is arguing about the issue legally rather than morally of effectiveness.

He's not saying anything about what he wants to happen, just that the current legal situation is inconsistent.

[Mr. Ron]

Well smokey, tell us. Would you make light spanking/locking kids in their room while they are grounded prosecutable if you could? Should they?

[Smokey D]

well if assault is being threatened then what is harsh language?


Well, technically, assault is causing the other person to apprehend that they are about to be struck. Presumably, you could use harsh language without doing that.


I think its sort of silly you guys would want parents dragged into court for this garbage and potentially go to prison for a god damn light smack on the butt.

I don't necessarily want that. Prison isn't the only outcome of criminal conduct.

Well smokey, tell us. Would you make light spanking/locking kids in their room while they are grounded prosecutable if you could? Should they?

Yes.

[Mr. Ron]

Well, technically, assault is causing the other person to apprehend that they are about to be struck. Presumably, you could use harsh language without doing that.



I don't necessarily want that. Prison isn't the only outcome of criminal conduct.



Yes.
Prison time? Fines? What would the punishment be?

[fingers mccoy]

Prison time? Fines? What would the punishment be?

if a legal inconsistency is being pointed out then wouldnt it be fair to assume that the implied alternative is legal consistency

i.e: treat kids the same as adults

[Smokey D]

Prison time? Fines? What would the punishment be?

I dunno. I'm not a criminologist. Presumably you could arrange it so that offenders were compelled to take anger management/parenting classes and have a system of escalating punishment for repeat offenders.

Or as fingers says, you could just remove the distinction between children and adults.

[Mr. Ron]

oh god lol

[Smokey D]

Deep.

[Mr. Ron]

Sorry, I couldn't find the words. :p

[Smokey D]

What's so amazing?

[Mr. Ron]

that you'd drag parents into legal action for something that doesn't even harm anything in all reality.

[Smokey D]

It does harm the child. Just because you've internalised your abuse doesn't mean we should let it happen to others.

And as I've mentioned already, you could write the law to build in discretion. For example

Parental control

*

(1) Every parent of a child and every person in the place of a parent of the child is justified in using force if the force used is reasonable in the circumstances and is for the purpose of—
o

(a) preventing or minimising harm to the child or another person; or
o

(b) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in conduct that amounts to a criminal offence; or
o

(c) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in offensive or disruptive behaviour; or
o

(d) performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting.

(2) Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.

(3) Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).

(4) To avoid doubt, it is affirmed that the Police have the discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent of a child or person in the place of a parent of a child in relation to an offence involving the use of force against a child, where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution.

[Iskandar]

Isn't this the standard practice for like everything.
Volenti non fit injuria. There is no injury to the willing.Good news for the BDSM community.

[Mr. Ron]

lol I wouldn't call my father spanking me a few times abuse at all. It didn't even hurt.

[Smokey D]

Good news for the BDSM community.

I dunno, there was a case in England where some stuck up judges in the House of Lords rejected the idea that you could consent to masochistic sex causing actual harm (not like chopping body parts off, just bleeding). I thought that was pretty dumb.

Isn't this the standard practice for like everything.

what

lol I wouldn't call my father spanking me a few times abuse at all. It didn't even hurt.

Did you not get what I meant when I said you had internalised it.

[Mr. Ron]

I dunno, there was a case in England where some stuck up judges in the House of Lords rejected the idea that you could consent to masochistic sex causing actual harm (not like chopping body parts off, just bleeding). I thought that was pretty dumb.



what



Did you not get what I meant when I said you had internalised it.
You mean I'm going to spank my kids one day?


how were you disciplined as a child? serious Q.

[Smokey D]

You mean I'm going to spank my kids one day?

No, it means you don't think that your abuse was abuse. It's alright, it happens to lots of victims. Hopefully one day you'll overcome it.


how were you disciplined as a child? serious Q.

With <3

[Mr. Ron]

No, it means you don't think that your abuse was abuse. It's alright, it happens to lots of victims. Hopefully one day you'll overcome it.




With <3
trust me, if my old man REALLY hit me, I would have payed him back by now since I'm much taller and stronger now. He spanked me like, what, 3 times in my entire life. awww noooo called the waaaaammmbulance. :rolleyes:

I love my father, and he has a big heart.




hey me too! Lets be best friends.

[Iskandar]

Ron, the difference between spanking and a sound thrashing is a matter of degree. You can agree with that even if you don't have a problem with spanking.
lol I wouldn't call my father spanking me a few times abuse at all. It didn't even hurt.Isn't the point to hurt, or at least humiliate you. Otherwise why do it.
I dunno, there was a case in England where some stuck up judges in the House of Lords rejected the idea that you could consent to masochistic sex causing actual harm (not like chopping body parts off, just bleeding). I thought that was pretty dumb.I remember reading about that actually. Something to do with bodily harm or ... I forget. Either way I don't see a concrete difference between sexual activities that draw blood and ones that just cause pain. Granted drawing blood carries health risks but that's pretty shaky grounds for an argument.

[BridgeToSolace]

Child abuse laws aren't stopping you from being a good parent, just stopping bad parents from being as bad as they could be.

Hopefully at least.

[Smokey D]

trust me, if my old man REALLY hit me, I would have payed him back by now since I'm much taller and stronger now. He spanked me like, what, 3 times in my entire life. awww noooo called the waaaaammmbulance.

You aren't convincing me that you weren't abused. You just sound like the battered women who says 'it was my own fault. I should have cooked his eggs'.

I remember reading about that actually. Something to do with bodily harm or ... I forget. Either way I don't see a concrete difference between sexual activities that draw blood and ones that just cause pain. Granted drawing blood carries health risks but that's pretty shaky grounds for an argument.

Well, a bruise would probably also have been sufficient. They were just being old fashioned.

[Mr. Ron]

Ron, the difference between spanking and a sound thrashing is a matter of degree. You can agree with that even if you don't have a problem with spanking.

Of course I think there is a difference between the two. REAL beating should be punished.

You aren't convincing me that you weren't abused. You just sound like the battered women who says 'it was my own fault. I should have cooked his eggs'.



Well, a bruise would probably also have been sufficient. They were just being old fashioned.
Oh like I could ever convince you of anything or even make you admit that you were ever wrong, mr. humorless mod :p

[Iskandar]

You aren't convincing me that you weren't abused. You just sound like the battered women who says 'it was my own fault. I should have cooked his eggs'.Or the circumcised man who says it's hygenic. Lol.
Well, a bruise would probably also have been sufficient. They were just being old fashioned.They should really stop waffling on their definition of bodily harm then or else they'll have to lock up everyone who's into spanking and handcuffs. Those leave non-permanent marks you know.
Of course I think there is a difference between the two. REAL beating should be punished.One is a more harmful variant of the same thing. The purpose of a spanking and beating alike is to bully the recipient into submission via pain. That doesn't change because one doesn't leave lasting marks (although the lines blur with paddling, the strap etc.).

[Smokey D]

Mr Ron, I protest. I do have a sense of humour.


Or the circumcised man who says it's hygenic. Lol.

Now you're catching on.


They should really stop waffling on their definition of bodily harm then or else they'll have to lock up everyone who's into spanking and handcuffs. Those leave non-permanent marks you know.

I think it just exposes that in some cases judges decide on their own moral intuitions not clearly defined legal principle.

[Mr. Ron]

No you don't Luke. You're a debating computer. hahaha


Literally. I once saw you post an emoticon, ONCE and I honestly laughed and did a double take.

[Iskandar]

Mr Ron, I protest. I do have a sense of humour.Yes, which is rather dry and stuffy, like the rest of you.
Now you're catching on.I'm not convinced circumcision is bodily harm any more than administering a booster shot.
I think it just exposes that in some cases judges decide on their own moral intuitions not clearly defined legal principle.That's dumb though.

[horseypie]

Ron, the difference between spanking and a sound thrashing is a matter of degree. You can agree with that even if you don't have a problem with spanking.

this is what i was arguing all along and got beaten down about it, and iskandar comes in and says the same thing and its all gravy. wtf

[Iskandar]

this is what i was arguing all along and got beaten down about it, and iskandar comes in and says the same thing and its all gravy. wtfI'm a moderator. Don't you dare argue with me young man. Go to your room.

[Smokey D]

Yes, which is rather dry and stuffy, like the rest of you.

Well, it might be quite dry but it's hardly stuffy.

Of course, my humour is for my own amusement, not to be class clown.


I'm not convinced circumcision is bodily harm any more than administering a booster shot.

Booster shot without consent is a battery.

That's dumb though.

To some extent it's unanavoidable. But I agree. I don't see any reason that say boxing should be permitted but kinky sex should not.

[Iskandar]

Well, it might be quite dry but it's hardly stuffy.

Of course, my humour is for my own amusement, not to be class clown.I would like to think I'm the same.
Booster shot without consent is a battery.
Are you serious.
To some extent it's unanavoidable. But I agree. I don't see any reason that say boxing should be permitted but kinky sex should not.It's more fun anyway.

[Mr. Ron]

Haha

[Smokey D]

Are you serious.

Deadly.

[Iskandar]

Deadly.If I recall, your argument against circumcision hinged on its being a non-essential procedure. I don't think vaccinations fall into the same category as cosmetic surgery.

[Led_Zep_Bonham]

Booster shot without consent is a battery.


I refused a booster shot when I was about 4 years old, it was at somebody's house or something. I tried to convince my mom and the person that I wouldn't get out of the locked bathroom until they said I didn't have to get the shot. I'm pretty sure they tricked me on that one, though.

[Smokey D]

If I recall, your argument against circumcision hinged on its being a non-essential procedure. I don't think vaccinations fall into the same category as cosmetic surgery.

Just as there is a difference between circumcision and a booster shot, there is a difference between a booster shot and a triple bypass.


I refused a booster shot when I was about 4 years old, it was at somebody's house or something. I tried to convince my mom and the person that I wouldn't get out of the locked bathroom until they said I didn't have to get the shot. I'm pretty sure they tricked me on that one, though.

Get up stand up. Stand up for your rights.

[Iskandar]

Just as there is a difference between circumcision and a booster shot, there is a difference between a booster shot and a triple bypass.Granted but aren't vaccinations arguably more justifiable than removal of vestigial tissue.
Get up stand up. Stand up for your rights.Life is your right.

(That shouldn't be misconstrued as a statement on abortion or anything.)

[Mr. Ron]

lmao alex

[Smokey D]

Granted but aren't vaccinations arguably more justifiable than removal of vestigial tissue.

Possibly they might be more acceptable than genital mutilation but that doesn't mean we should administer them without consent.

[Iskandar]

Possibly they might be more acceptable than genital mutilation but that doesn't mean we should administer them without consent.If we perform a potentially life-saving procedure on an infant without their consent (say open-heart surgery) how is vaccination different except less urgent.

[horseypie]

Possibly they might be more acceptable than genital mutilation but that doesn't mean we should administer them without consent.

but you have parental consent to give vaccination

[Smokey D]

but you have parental consent to give vaccination

Presumably parents could consent for someone else to beat me too.

If we perform a potentially life-saving procedure on an infant without their consent (say open-heart surgery) how is vaccination different except less urgent.

Because it is not a life saving procedure it is a prophylactic.

[horseypie]

Presumably parents could consent for someone else to beat me too.

but legally a childs parents are their guardians since a young child has no means of consenting or not consenting, so are they breaking the law?

[Smokey D]

Well, they're not but they should be.

[Iskandar]

Because it is not a life saving procedure it is a prophylactic.If it saves someone's life, it amounts to the same.

How old do people have to be before they can give informed consent to be vaccinated against smallpox.
Well, they're not but they should be.Allowing your child to be beaten isn't child abuse or at least neglect?

[Smokey D]

If it saves someone's life, it amounts to the same.

Not at all. I'm not allowed to chop off someone's breasts on the off chance it'll stop them from getting breast cancer.

How old do people have to be before they can give informed consent to be vaccinated against smallpox.

I dunno. I'm not a developmental psychologist. 7 or something?


Allowing your child to be beaten isn't child abuse or at least neglect?

Allowing your child to be stabbed with a virus should also be considered child abuse.

[horseypie]

so say it is illegal
a childs parents dont vaccinate their child for fear of criminal charges
the child catches a severe flu or something similar which leads to death
how do you think the parents are going to feel about that. thats just stupid


edit: how can you compare an infant catching smallpox to an infant 'catching' breast cancer

[Iskandar]

Not at all. I'm not allowed to chop off someone's breasts on the off chance it'll stop them from getting breast cancer.But you're allowed to have a dangerous procedure performed on them which may result in their death.

Besides which vaccinations are intended to prevent illness not cause harm.
Allowing your child to be stabbed with a virus should also be considered child abuse.See above.

[Smokey D]

But you're allowed to have a dangerous procedure performed on them which may result in their death.

Um, immediate, proportionate and necessary procedures should be permitted unless expressly rejected.

But vaccination doesn't fit any of that.


Besides which vaccinations are intended to prevent illness not cause harm.

They can do two things. Except in the most extreme of cases, it should not be up to anyone other than the patient to decide whether they want to accept that risk or not.

[Iskandar]

Vaccination isn't proportionate given the relatively minor risks in exchange for the potential tradeoff, ie. saving your life from infectious diseases?

[Smokey D]

Vaccination isn't proportionate given the relatively minor risks in exchange for the potential tradeoff, ie. saving your life from infectious diseases?

I would say probably not.

And it's definitely not immediate or necessary.

[Iskandar]

I would say probably not.

And it's definitely not immediate or necessary.Define necessary. Does the child's life have to be in danger?

[Smokey D]

Define necessary. Does the child's life have to be in danger?

There'd have to be an immediate or at least imminent threat to the child's life, yes.

[Iskandar]

There'd have to be an immediate or at least imminent threat to the child's life, yes.Going to India and you need vaccinations against cholera and stuff.

[Smokey D]

Maybe. I don't know if even that meets the threshold of immediate or imminent threat to life, though. Certainly, it doesn't justify non-consensual vaccination in a society without widespread endemic illness.

[Iskandar]

Maybe. I don't know if even that meets the threshold of immediate or imminent threat to life, though. Certainly, it doesn't justify non-consensual vaccination in a society without widespread endemic illness.What about against epidemics though.

[BridgeToSolace]

There are already parents who voluntarily decide not to vaccinate their children.

Something about it causing 'tardness.

btw, moderators, get avatars so it's easier to tell you apart.

Smokey, just get a picture of some smoke or something. Or the smoke monster from lost.

[Smokey D]

What about against epidemics though.

It would be a matter of fact and degree. Some diseases might justify non-consensual inoculation, although I doubt most would.

[Iskandar]

There are already parents who voluntarily decide not to vaccinate their children.

Something about it causing 'tardness.Yeah they have every right to do so.
btw, moderators, get avatars so it's easier to tell you apart.I don't think it would help. We're already too similar already.
Smokey, just get a picture of some smoke or something. Or the smoke monster from lost.If he does I'll get Alexander the Great but otherwise I'll be damned if I'm using an avatar.
It would be a matter of fact and degree. Some diseases might justify non-consensual inoculation, although I doubt most would.Potentially fatal and widespread ones, I should think.

[Smokey D]

Potentially fatal and widespread ones, I should think.

If there was an actual epidemic of measles or something and a substantial risk of actual infection, then maybe. But the off chance of infection would not be sufficient.

[Iskandar]

I thought we received vaccinations for things we had some chance of getting, not like leprosy.

[Smokey D]

"Some chance" isn't immediate, proportionate and necessary.

You have some chance of getting testicular cancer but it's not grounds for neo-natal castration.

[Iskandar]

Vaccination isn't castration.

[Smokey D]

And 'some chance' isn't a justification for violating your bodily integrity.

[Iskandar]

Fine line you're drawing there. Is it violating your bodily integrity when the doctor sticks a tongue compressor in your mouth.

[Smokey D]

Consent.

[Iskandar]

Did I consent to that when I was like five.

[Smokey D]

I dunno, but if you didn't then that shouldn't be allowed either.

[Iskandar]

I dunno, but if you didn't then that shouldn't be allowed either.The point is that I agree with that but consent is a fuzzy issue for children. That mentally competent adults can consent is a non-issue. With children you have to draw the line somewhere. At what age can we said to be consent to stuff like this and how do we determine something that varies between people.

[Smokey D]

No medical procedures except those which are life saving should be performed on anyone who is incapable of consent.

[1338 h4x0r]

Smokey D is my Vulcan hero

[Iskandar]

No medical procedures except those which are life saving should be performed on anyone who is incapable of consent.Clearly but I just said the issue of consent isn't as clear-cut for children because they can consent but they mature at different rates and times. In effect you're asking people to choose a specific age at which children are decided to be capable of decisions about their health and that runs into all sorts of difficulties.

[Smokey D]

If they can't consent, then you shouldn't be able to conduct any sort of procedure on them. I dunno, maybe psychologists could work out when particular individuals reached the appropriate level of maturity.

[Iskandar]

That's the problem I see. We can safely assume an adult is capable of informed consent. That's not disputed. But how do we tell when a child is? Do we need standardized psychological testing for every single child? That sounds cumbersome to say the least.

[DBoons Ghost]

in strum's case it appears he was just making up stuff

considering you seem to generally position yourself as a realist dont you think it would make sense for him to ground what he said in reality somewhat

especially considering what he said was nonsensical

please don't start being a dick for no reason

Strum's a parent. He's married. What do you expect us to do? Film our children in socially challenging situations and let you guys rate our performace reading charts and diagrams? Maybe run a simulated computer model to see what their lives would be like and criticize accordingly along the way?

I'm not being a dick for no reason. Honestly I'm trying really hard not to be.

At Father's Day dinner my daughter drew me a card up and wrote a poem in it, that she couldn't wait to read me. It was a crowded enough place. The poem read:

"Walk a Little slower, Daddy." said a little child so small.
I'm following in your footsteps and I don't want to fall.

Sometimes your steps are very fast, sometimes they're hard to see;
So walk a little slower Daddy, for you are leading me.

Someday when I'm all grown up, You're what I want to be.
Then I will have a little child who'll want to follow me.

And I would want to lead just right, and know that I was true
So, walk a little slower, Daddy, for I must follow you!!"

She follows me indeed. I will lead her. No one else. No one.

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

[1338 h4x0r]

Apparently, you didn't teach her about meter

[DBoons Ghost]

She's 6.

Apparently your parents didn't teach you anything about humility. Maybe more people would respect your logic if you weren't such a massive dick. I'm sure you'll explain that away with links and studies and what not.

Your virtual behavior tells me your parents failed to prepare you, since you take so much liberty over the internet. I bet in reality you stare at your shoes and talk to your chest and never look anyone in the eye, because you're a coward.

[Light Flantastic]

i dont believe no kid wrote that she had help

[1338 h4x0r]

She's 6.

Apparently your parents didn't teach you anything about humility. Maybe more people would respect your logic if you weren't such a massive dick.

Looks like I hit a nerve

Anyway, no, my parents didn't teach me about humility, because I rarely boasted of any of my achievements

[Light Flantastic]

makes a change from the prostate

[DBoons Ghost]

i dont believe no kid wrote that she had help

It's a known poem, Of course she didn't write it.

[1338 h4x0r]

lol what a little plagiarist

[DBoons Ghost]

Looks like I hit a nerve

Anyway, no, my parents didn't teach me about humility, because I rarely boasted of any of my achievements

Lol, you hit a nerve alright! My day is ruined because of you. I know these are the things that make your day. Revel in it! Victory!

[BridgeToSolace]

It's a known poem, Of course she didn't write it.

Oh, thank god. I was gunna say, maybe I should start hitting my kid too!

*I responded intellectually-ish early, and apparently we've all decided to be silly now, so it's cool.

[1338 h4x0r]

Lol, you hit a nerve alright! My day is ruined because of you. I know these are the things that make your day. Revel in it! Victory!

/confused look

Ok

/makes halfhearted victory dance

[Light Flantastic]

dboon raises his child with god and an iron fist

[DBoons Ghost]

Oh, thank god. I was gunna say, maybe I should start hitting my kid too!

*I responded intellectually-ish early, and apparently we've all decided to be silly now, so it's cool.

I read it all. I still think you're giving me sweeping generalizations. Either I'm failing to comprehend how any of the scenarios apply to me, or you're misunderstanding my entire point.

But that's ok. I know you mean well, and that's all that matters. However, if there was something specific you would like me to reply to, I would be happy to. I don't want anyone here thinking I smack my kid around. My wife and I have no "routine" discilpinary plan. We deal with things as they come up, and most of the time they are so insignificant, there's nothing more than a conversation involved.

[DBoons Ghost]

dboon raises his child with god and an iron fist

I smite her nightly at her bedside as she says her evening prayers.

[BridgeToSolace]

Why is physical discipline better for your child than alternative methods? Explain how physical involvement isn't an indulgence in your own parental ignorance of not knowing what else do rather than there being no other way.

I think this is at the crux of it.

I mean, if the answer is "It isn't better", then we're in complete agreement.

Define tough, and explain why I am a better person when I'm tough.

You mean tough like we used to be? When we were protesting Elvis' minor pelvic thrusts and proclaiming it marked the demise of democracy?


And this, but it's kind of off topic, so use your discretion if you don't want to write an essay or something.

[Meatplow]

Referring to the amount of times I have seen it discussed elsewhere, this whole how to discipline children debate is tiring as hell.

[DBoons Ghost]

I think this is at the crux of it.

I mean, if the answer is "It isn't better", then we're in complete agreement.

It isn't better, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any value.


And this, but it's kind of off topic, so use your discretion if you don't want to write an essay or something.

Toughness as a means of defining a work ethic. Plain and simple. She cleans her own room. Gathers her own clothes for laundry. Helps fold wash. Has her own chores, in which she is rewarded. Understands the value of working for something she wants. Nothing comes free. Nothing is easy. It doesn't matter how much money I have, she will learn the value of her own earned dollar. That is what I mean by tough. Also, tough enough to withstand taunting. Tough enough to withstand when a kid picks on her. Tough enough to walk away. Tough enough to not go with the pack if she knows the pack is wrong. Tough enough to stand up for herself without running to a teacher or parent. Tough enough to do for herself in almost every capacity I can think of. Accountable for herself at as early an age as possible.

[1338 h4x0r]

Efficiency ethic seems like a better virtue than work ethic

[DBoons Ghost]

Efficiency ethic seems like a better virtue than work ethic

How do you mean?

[1338 h4x0r]

Toil for its own sake pretty dumb

It doesn't matter if your room is in disarray as long as its not attracting pests and you can find everything

[DBoons Ghost]

Toil for its own sake pretty dumb

It doesn't matter if your room is in disarray as long as its not attracting pests and you can find everything

Uhh..

What? Are you serious? Is that how you were raised?

[1338 h4x0r]

No, not really

But my own personal belief is that we are first and foremost a way for the Universe to get to know itself, and if I am going to bust my ***, it better not be for something dumb like the arrangement of a sock drawer.

OH NO I'M SLIGHTLY UNTIDY CALL THE WAMBULANCE

EDIT - you should see some of the grad EE labs at UB, holy ****

[BridgeToSolace]

It isn't better, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any value.

Of course it has value. An argument I've rarely heard against kinetic discipline is that "It doesn't do anything."

But we seem to agree that it's not the most effective method. Do we also agree that there are negative, unwanted effects?

So why would the proverbial you ever do it? It's either a mistake (in the sense that there was a better option and you used a lesser one), or a sign of bad parenting philosophy.

Also, tough enough to withstand taunting. Tough enough to withstand when a kid picks on her. Tough enough to walk away. Tough enough to not go with the pack if she knows the pack is wrong. Tough enough to stand up for herself without running to a teacher or parent. Tough enough to do for herself in almost every capacity I can think of. Accountable for herself at as early an age as possible.

(The origin of this thread of thought was banning dodge ball, just to bridge the few pages where this was ignored.)

Now, when you talk about tough enough to withstand taunting, I think you're in some ways alluding the elementary schools who over-regulate interactions between children. A kid is suspended for teasing, blah blah blah. And a (supposedly) natural extension of that is banning dodgeball as a physical manifestation of the unwanted power structure.

But I think the intent, however, is to create an environment where a child doesn't need to withstand taunting. I think that's an admirable goal, and the intent is good.

The manifestation of that intent is kind of misguided, though. The desired psychology can only result from a fundamental rethinking of our educational system and not from little things like banning dodgeball. Dodgeball being overly aggressive and violent is an indication of a problem rather than a cause.

It gives a warm, fuzzy feeling to think of my father thinking of me the way you describe of your daughter. I appreciate the perspective :wave:

[DBoons Ghost]

No, not really

But my own personal belief is that we are first and foremost a way for the Universe to get to know itself, and if I am going to bust my ***, it better not be for something dumb like the arrangement of a sock drawer.

OH NO I'M SLIGHTLY UNTIDY CALL THE WAMBULANCE

EDIT - you should see some of the grad EE labs at UB, holy ****

Again you draw the wrong conclusion. It's not about arranging a sock drawer. We arrange her clothing drawers. She takes her clothes to the hamper. We put her clothes away mostly.

It's more about taking care of her things. Kids place no value on things and it's up to us to teach them to take care of their possessions, regardless of the "logic" behind them being material items and the superficiality associated with it.

Also, I don't like stepping on her toys when I walk into her room. Her books are arranged and in order, her toys are placed where she knows where each one is. She already sees the value in that as she always knows where all her toys are at any given time. She likes that she knows where all her stuff is, and where all her stuff goes. It's a very valid lesson.

I see your point, but cleanliness and tidiness is important for a child. Children are dens of germs, and keeping a clean room is the first step in understanding being tidy is a sure way to keep yourself healthy and clean. We wash her stuffed animals after she gets a bad cold. Germs store themselves everywhere.

[Light Flantastic]

But I think the intent, however, is to create an environment where a child doesn't need to withstand taunting. I think that's an admirable goal, and the intent is good.
so you think children shouldnt be prepared for the real world after school

[BridgeToSolace]

so you think children shouldnt be prepared for the real world after school

I think an extension of being a good person when you're a kid is that you'll be a good person later.

So instead of raising another generation of assholes, try to stop the cycle.

[1338 h4x0r]

I see your point, but cleanliness and tidiness is important for a child. Children are dens of germs, and keeping a clean room is the first step in understanding being tidy is a sure way to keep yourself healthy and clean. We wash her stuffed animals after she gets a bad cold. Germs store themselves everywhere.

Adults are dens of germs, too. They're swarming all over us. But that's ok since most of them live comensally with us, and some are even symbiotic. There aren't many bad apples, actually.

Germs! Germs! GERMS!

And let's not even get started on the mites living on you. You have an actual colony of animals living and dying on you, isn't that wild?

[DBoons Ghost]

Of course it has value. An argument I've rarely heard against kinetic discipline is that "It doesn't do anything."

But we seem to agree that it's not the most effective method. Do we also agree that there are negative, unwanted effects?

So why would the proverbial you ever do it? It's either a mistake (in the sense that there was a better option and you used a lesser one), or a sign of bad parenting philosophy.

There are more negative unwanted effects then positive, but again, it all depends on the scenario, the lesson, the moral.. the reason. I don't default to a smack on the bottom. I don't do it becase I ran out of options. I don't do it for loss of patience, or because I'm a moron who doesn't know a better way. My daughter won't learn anything if all I ever did was hit her when she did something wrong, as "wrong" has varying degrees of relativity in relation to whatever the action was. Sometimes, a child's logic is wholesome and pure, and sometimes, they just don't know any better. Example being, I never hit her for jumping on the couch. I preferred to ler her fall. She got hurt, and she cried, and she came to me for solace even after I yelled at her to stop. She didn't, grinned at me like I'm some schmuck, and proceeded to fall. After I kissed her booboos, she apologized. I asked her if she understood why I didn't want her jumping on the couch, and she understood. Maybe other parents might have had another approach to this. Reasoning with a child before they understand what reason is, is impossible. Everyone has to learn this on their own. Everyone's child is going to be different. You don't want to stop them from being daring and doing physically challenging activities, but you want to limit their exposure to injuring themselves.

(The origin of this thread of thought was banning dodge ball, just to bridge the few pages where this was ignored.)

Now, when you talk about tough enough to withstand taunting, I think you're in some ways alluding the elementary schools who over-regulate interactions between children. A kid is suspended for teasing, blah blah blah. And a (supposedly) natural extension of that is banning dodgeball as a physical manifestation of the unwanted power structure.

But I think the intent, however, is to create an environment where a child doesn't need to withstand taunting. I think that's an admirable goal, and the intent is good.

The manifestation of that intent is kind of misguided, though. The desired psychology can only result from a fundamental rethinking of our educational system and not from little things like banning dodgeball. Dodgeball being overly aggressive and violent is an indication of a problem rather than a cause.

It gives a warm, fuzzy feeling to think of my father thinking of me the way you describe of your daughter. I appreciate the perspective :wave:

My wife and I chose an old school Catholic private school developed in the exact model of the school I attended when I was a child. My wife attended the same type of school. We find them to be better then public schools where a child is suspended for such behavior. They hold parents directly accountable. They have full power to discipline my daughter, but they don't hit them anymore, thankfully. All the parents are friends. We talk to each other about conflits our children have. She only has 30 kids in her class, and she'll be with the same children through 8th grade. It makes these kidns of things a lot easier.

Now, my wife is a 14 year veteran teacher in the NYC public school system, and is a pro at non violent conflict resolution for special needs children. She's 30 credits away from a PhD if she so wishes. She and you would probably have some amazing conversations, but the philosphies she was taught admittedly don't apply to every child in every case. Plus the bias associated with it being your child as opposed to some nameless faceless statistic. I will say she has a lot to do with why my daughter is so bright and smart for her age, but it changes nothing about how my daughter interacts socially with other children.

Plus, they emulate so much of your behavior, that when parents strike their children for doing something they themselves unknowingly bestowed upoin them, it drives me insane. My daughter's diet and sleep habits are closely guarded, and those two simple things prevent a lot of terrible behavior that often sets off children being bad. WHich is even worse to me. You keep your kid up until 11PM because you are too busy for their needs, let them drink sugary drinks and eat snacks to keep them quiet, then expect them to go right to sleep on demand. WHen they don't go right to sleep, you go in screaming and yelling? Wtf? It's your fault!

I know I got away from the dodgeball thing, but I think it evolved into something where strong kids prey on the weak kids, and that of course is wrong.

[DBoons Ghost]

Adults are dens of germs, too. They're swarming all over us. But that's ok since most of them live comensally with us, and some are even symbiotic. There aren't many bad apples, actually.

Germs! Germs! GERMS!

And let's not even get started on the mites living on you. You have an actual colony of animals living and dying on you, isn't that wild?

I'm no germ freak but I've seen with my own eyes reoccuring patterns of colds due to not keeping a child clean, or their toys. Most people overlook that. That's all I am saying. Something as simple as her not sleeping with bunny because he's in the dryer is hard for a little girl to fathom, but when I tell her it keeps her healthy, she seems ok with it.

[Light Flantastic]

I think an extension of being a good person when you're a kid is that you'll be a good person later.

So instead of raising another generation of spatulas, try to stop the cycle.
natural selection will prevent these sheltered kids from doing well and spatulas will live on

[DBoons Ghost]

natural selection will prevent these sheltered kids from doing well and spatulas will live on

Earlier I said that not every family subscribes to the same newsletter.

Until they do, not teaching a child properly will result in a handicap.

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm no germ freak but I've seen with my own eyes reoccuring patterns of colds due to not keeping a child clean, or their toys. Most people overlook that. That's all I am saying. Something as simple as her not sleeping with bunny because he's in the dryer is hard for a little girl to fathom, but when I tell her it keeps her healthy, she seems ok with it.

Being sick builds up antibodies

I haven't come down with anything in years, literally, even when everyone else had some bug, because my folks let the germs toughen me up

Germs are pretty cool sometimes

[DBoons Ghost]

Being sick builds up antibodies

I haven't come down with anything in years, literally, even when everyone else had some bug, because my folks let the germs toughen me up

Germs are pretty cool sometimes

I agree 100%. But 3 colds a month is a bit much. The washing the stuffed animals once every couple of months was the doc's idea. She gets sick a lot less. Colds suck for kids. Especially before they learn how to properly blow their nose.

[1338 h4x0r]

A lot of adults, or at least young adults don't know how to blow their nose either

Which is one reason why being in a cavernous lecture hall in Buffalo in the winter sucks

[DBoons Ghost]

I think being in Buffalo at any time of the year, sucks. I hated having to go there for work.

[1338 h4x0r]

Buffalo in the spring: heil