Official Rugby Thread (LOL Wales 4th Place)

[Pastorius]

Not expecting many rugby fans in here really, but thought I'd cast a line anyway.

So, I'd like to talk with anyone else who likes rugby!

Mauro Bergamasco at scrum half for Italy, that's a bit of a risk.

[Squirrel]

I know nothing about Rugby at all, but I enjoy watching good international matches.

Rooting for England, obviously :)

[Pastorius]

I hope Goode and Ellis play well, but I want them to lose in spectacular fashion xD

[Pastorius]

lol@ england

[Dave de Sylvia]

Eagerly anticipating Ireland v France. Kindey's made some interesting decisions at centre and the back row. The French look, honestly, their most vulnerable for years, but the bastards have costs us three grand slams in recent years so history isn't exactly on our side.

[Pastorius]

Should be a good game aye. To be honest, Wales look a good bet to win it again this year.

England looked pretty bad despite the 5 try victory. 4 of them were just taking advantage of terrible Italy play.

[gaslight]

England will be happy to come away with their first win in a while, monstering (scoreboard wise) Italy who were hampered a fair bit by MB's errors.

I'm tipping Wales to take it out this year and I'm really looking forward to checking out all the games, this will be the first time I've ever properly followed the 6 Nations tournament.

I'm not sure who to back in Ireland v France, it's not as clear cut a matter as England v Italy was. What do you guys reckon? I'm leaning to Ireland myself.

Quite looking forward to the Scots v the Welsh when it happens (2 in the morning on Monday in my timezone).

[Dave de Sylvia]

Should be a good game aye. To be honest, Wales look a good bet to win it again this year.
Every time Wales are favourite they end up losing three matches.

It's the logic of the 6 Nations and it never fails.

[gaslight]

Haha nice. We'll see if it holds.

[Pastorius]

Every time Wales are favourite they end up losing three matches.

It's the logic of the 6 Nations and it never fails.

Ha, this much is quite true. But this time we're looking the strongest squad, you've got to admit.

England will be happy with the win, but depending on what happens tomorrow with Wales Scotland, may be quite worried that they are looking slightly toothless in the backs.

[Pastorius]

Fantastic try by Heaslip.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Heaslip is an absolute beast. He's going to be the best #8 in the world in a few years; there's no surer bet.

That was one of the best rugby matches I've ever seen. France were incredible- better than us on the balance of play- but it's about time we screwed them over the way they have to us so many times.

The tussle between Wales and France is setting up to be an incredible one. This has thrown the competition wide open.

[Pastorius]

It was an amazing match wasn't it, I couldn't take my eyes off it, and Heaslip was indeed incredible, I agree with that statement.

Let's hope Wales start the tournament with a big one against Scotland.

[Dave de Sylvia]

That should be interesting. They've left Patterson on the bench, so they're obviously intent upon playing a running game. Which, given the quality of Wales' backline, should make for another incredible display.

[Pastorius]

Ouch man, ouch.

A masterclass in how not to tackle from the Scots. This is ours.

[gaslight]

Looking set for a Welsh win, though they'd have posted a much bigger score if their kicking had been on song.

[Pastorius]

Yep, but we are looking absolutely fantastic.

[gaslight]

Yeah you've pretty well routed the Scots at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more points in it yet for Wales. Though being a man down they'd be equally impressive to still not concede a try.

EDIT: Jinx =\

[Pastorius]

You bastard.

[gaslight]

My bad. I saved that second one though.

[Dave de Sylvia]

God, Wales were dreadful today. That said, there'll be a lot of Welshmen effectively playing for their lives to get back in Lions reckoning next week, so it'll be some finale.

[Dave de Sylvia]

44 minutes gone, England 34 - 0 France

Imagine how big the score would be if England has someone who could kick a penalty!

[gaslight]

Holy crap, haven't seen England on the good side of an arse kicking for some time.

[Pastorius]

My lord, I do not want to read the arse licking England are gonna get in the papers tomorrow

[Dave de Sylvia]

The Scoots will give them a good match on yesterday's evidence.

[Pastorius]

Yeah the Scots have put in a good showing this 6 nations, really stalwart performances, even if their handling has been off

[Smokey D]

Question: why do we persist with the idea that Italy is good enough to match the other 5 countries?

[Dave de Sylvia]

We don't, really. But they are developing their rugby: they'll have two teams in the Magners League in a little over a year, which would theoretically put them on an equal footing with Scotland.

[gaslight]

You have to let developing teams play with the more elite sides, it grows the sport internationally.

Having Italy play in the 6 Nations is the same kind of the thing as what they're trying to do with getting Argentina in on the Tri-Nations, which would make it the Four Nations I suppose (I doubt Quad-Nations would catch on), and with the efforts to try and get a Pacific Islands team into the future Super 15/16/whatever it ends up being.

[Smokey D]

Okay but Argentina actually beats people.

It seems to me that losing consistently is not the way to build the sport. Whenever my team loses regularly, I get turned off (lol who am my kidding my team doesn't lose regularly).

[gaslight]

And hopefully Argentina will beat more people when they get a chance to play at a higher level more :).

I mean, Italy may not be amazing but they'd probably smash Georgia.

[Smokey D]

Argentina at least in its current form definitely has the skill to contest on a higher stage. I dunno about their depth long term but maybe. But realistically I would not expect them to be much more successful against the Tri-Nations sides than Italy is against the old Five Nations.

But there is a real risk that failure to perform against the stronger sides will harm the game rather than build it. And as Italy shows, simply playing at a higher level internationally does not automatically lead better performances. I'm not familiar with Italy's domestic game, but intuitively I doubt it's very well developed.
There is some suggestion about including Argentina in the Tri-Nations and Super Rugby competions but it's unlikely to happen until after the UAR institutes professionalism, which they don't seemed inclined to do at the moment.

Anyway, the point of all this is to say that we should be wary of expanding high level international competitions just for the sake of growing the game if there is reason to doubt the newbies can match the quality of the competition.

Also, good on England for playing like they did. That Celtic crowing was getting annoying. Also, curse of the Grand Slam strikes Wales again. Har.

[gaslight]

Last I heard it was not if but when as regards Argentina joining the Tri-Nations, but yeah they'll be lucky to notch up many wins in it.

Thing is they're kind of in a grey area, because they'd likely dominate most of the Super rugby teams, at least if they were fielding their 2007 RWC side which obviously they wouldn't be, but still.

Very tough to find the right place to play teams who are a cut above domestic fair but a cut below the international heavyweights. Maybe there should be the old 5 nations and then 5 Other Nations or something.

Totally looking forward to Ireland v Wales, that'll be (literally) the match of the tournament.

[Smokey D]

Last I heard it was not if but when as regards Argentina joining the Tri-Nations, but yeah they'll be lucky to notch up many wins in it.

There's all sorts of shenanigans going on with SANZAR at the moment. For a while it looked like Argentina was a shoe in, but currently it looks like the most likely non-Tri-Nations candidate is some weird Japanese-expat amalgam.

Thing is they're kind of in a grey area, because they'd likely dominate most of the Super rugby teams, at least if they were fielding their 2007 RWC side which obviously they wouldn't be, but still.

All of Argentina's best players play in Europe and I can't see them being enticed back from their million dollar contracts by a relatively poor barely professional union; I think we can assume Argentina wouldn't be fielding its 2007 RWC team.


Very tough to find the right place to play teams who are a cut above domestic fair but a cut below the international heavyweights. Maybe there should be the old 5 nations and then 5 Other Nations or something.

Yeah I was trying to think who'd be in it. Italy, Argentina (who would probably dominate), Japan, Tonga and Samoa?


Totally looking forward to Ireland v Wales, that'll be (literally) the match of the tournament.

Should be a cracker. Go Wales.

[gaslight]

Yeah indeed, one of the main things against the UAR turning professional is it probably can't afford the best Argentinians. It'd certainly test the depth of rugby there.

Yeah I dunno who exactly my 5 Other Nations would be, maybe, Italy, Argentina, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji. Japan. In which case I suppose it'd be 6 More Nations instead.

An interesting thing would be a champions league kinda thing with union teams. I'd be more into it as a novelty than as a serious realistic tournament though. Ah well, that's what videogames are for I suppose.

[Smokey D]

Based on the current form of Super 14 teams, I reckon European teams would dominate. Maybe SA too.

[gaslight]

Yeah, not a lot of consistent greatness in Super 14 at the moment. Should have picked up a lot by the third quarter of the season though.

[Pastorius]

It's pretty simple though innit, competition against better opponents forces your team to get better. Italy now have many players in top level leagues, and their forwards are great. Castrogiovanni for example, is one of the best props out there. (I am a Tigers fan though)

[gaslight]

Yeah. Really looking forward to some fun international tests this year.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Should be a cracker. Go Wales.
h8 u

Italy are steadily improving: it took them a few years to win a game in the Six Nations, but then they scored a huge victory over Wales. They should be looking to challenge Scotland every year, and the coach really dropped the ball with his selections against a very beatable England.

[mph4ever]

i can't believe i missed this thread

its the usual thing of ireland peaking too soon while everyone else is building for the world cup unless kidney is different to the other dopes that had great talent and no balls

[Smokey D]

It's pretty simple though innit, competition against better opponents forces your team to get better. Italy now have many players in top level leagues, and their forwards are great. Castrogiovanni for example, is one of the best props out there. (I am a Tigers fan though)

My point is that this doesn't appear to be happening. I don't really know how bad Italy were before they joined the Six Nations, I spose.



its the usual thing of ireland peaking too soon while everyone else is building for the world cup unless kidney is different to the other dopes that had great talent and no balls

Hahaha, you think you have it bad.

[Pastorius]

You can't have been watching rugby that long to think Italy haven't improved. Since joining the 6 nations they've made an observable improvement each year. The very fact that they're able to compete and in some cases dominate in the forwards is a marker of how much progress they've made. Their backs are weak, but McLean is a good prospect and with time more Italian backs will make their way into the better leagues. It all filters down.

[Smokey D]

To get the Six Nations I have to pay extra on an already bloated Sky bill so I just watch the news instead. It's much more difficult to tell who's got magic in the backline let alone who's winning in the deeper mysteries of the forward pack when pretty much all they tell you is a scoreline.

I am forced to judge European teams on how they perform against us and 70-0 doesn't leave me much inspired about Italy's ability.

[Pastorius]

Aaaaah that's a shame, it's always been on terrestrial (free to everyone) TV in the UK, one of the great things about it.

Trust me though, they've improved vastly over the past 7-8 years.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Aaaaah that's a shame, it's always been on terrestrial (free to everyone) TV in the UK, one of the great things about it.
I wouldn't call having to listen to Jeremy Guscott "free"

Italian rugby is still a long way behind Ireland, England, France and Wales, but Ireland and Wales have provided the blueprint for how small rugby nations can compete with the likes of England and France. Their admission to the Celtic League and the (hopefully) disbandment of their awful French-style league should bring their game on immensely in the next decade or so.

[Pastorius]

It already has, Wales were widely acknowledged as the favourites for this year's tournament! Ireland have had a solid team for a long time now. It all comes from culture, a strong culture of rugby in the youth means more promising talents are brought on.

And Brian Moore is way worse than Jerry Guscott to listen to!

[Dave de Sylvia]

Wales were widely acknowledged as the favourites for this year's tournament!
Good luck with that!

[Pastorius]

Still possible if Gatland hadn't put out the wank squad he did against Italy! Why he didn't just put out a good squad and put on reserve players after we'd closed up the points deficit I do not know.

Well I think we need to beat Ireland by 21 points or something to win.

[Dave de Sylvia]

13. It's possible, but I think most teams regard the championship as more or less meaningless without a grand slam. Wales will play to win, but Ireland will gamble if the game is coming to a close and they're still behind.

[Pastorius]

That's bull, teams regard it as a massive achievement to win the championship, it's the most important thing unless it's a world cup year! Say, if Ireland get a penalty t hat they could kick to touch and go for a try, or kick the penalty, win the tournament but lose the game, in the 75th minute, they'd take the penalty for sure.

[Dave de Sylvia]

If it was a choice between grand slam and championship, they'd go for the slam no question.

[mph4ever]

slam, unless of course you only lost to italy

[Pastorius]

If it was a choice between grand slam and championship, they'd go for the slam no question.

Depends how the game is going and the mentality of the team. I guarantee you that they do not regard the whole thing as meaningless unless they win the grand slam, you obviously haven't been watching it for that long or you wouldn't see the passion they play with to win the championship.

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's sort of like the difference between beating Man Utd and winning nothing, and losing to Liverpool but winning five trophies.

[Pastorius]

why i oughta

You seriously are underestimating the importance of winning the championship though.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Probably, but don't you think it's less meaningful? I think if Wales were leading by 6 going into the last five minutes, they'd consolidate to win the game rather than chasing the 13 point target. I think both teams on Saturday will just want to win the match, and anything else is a bonus.

[Pastorius]

Wales will play for the 13 points no matter what. What have they got to lose? The triple crown but that's more of a boasting thing than anything else.

Ireland however, will have the championship to lose. If they're losing by say, 8 points with 10 minutes to go, and they get a penalty, they'll kick it to put Wales out of try scoring range of the the championship. Plus that's the sensible option anyway I guess but you get my point.

Of course it's less meaningful, but it's still a huge thing to win like innit

[Dave de Sylvia]

haha well maybe we'll find out on Saturday. I just don't think even an exciting team like Wales would risk losing the match to win the championship.

[Pastorius]

Well if Wales are within championship winning range, they're winning the match anyway.

[Dave de Sylvia]

If they're 6 points up they are within championship-winning range and match-losing range. It's all theoretical, but my basic point was that Wales will be playing to win, not playing to annihilate Ireland (which is what a 13-point win would be).

[Pastorius]

Ooooooh no no no, they'll be playing for the 13 points.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Bet you if you offered Warren Gatland a 1-point win** tonight he'd take it.

**this is not an actual offer

[Pastorius]

If you offered him a 1 point win tonight, he'd say "I'll take my chances this weekend thanks". What kind of moronic coach would willingly lose the championship?

Trust me, they'll be going for the 13 points. Why not?

[Dave de Sylvia]

Cos it's unrealistic!

[gaslight]

Stoked for the final week. I hope I can get my Setanta subscription through in time.

[Dave de Sylvia]

You should probably steal cable like everyone else.

[Smokey D]

Cos it's unrealistic!

Hahahha. I dunno if it's likely but it's hardly unrealistic. Ireland can't really be accused of consistent high level performances, even if this is the best team they've had in 7 years or whatever it is. If Wales play well and Ireland play average, 13 points is perfectly conceivable. But it's just as likely to go against Wales as for them so I'm not gonna make any predictions.

[gaslight]

You should probably steal cable like everyone else.

Haha, I don't even know how to steal cable in this day and age.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well Ireland have been average in three of their games so far and still won relatively comfortably. Wales have been incredibly inconsistent in the tournament to date, but the chances of Ireland winning by more than 7 points are miniscule. Wales would need to perform at All Black standard to win by 13 points.

[gaslight]

I think this Wales v Ireland game has a wealth of possibilities. Depending on form on the day we could see either side trounce the other, or a brutal grind coming down to a point or two in the difference. I certainly hope we see both teams going top flight.

[Pastorius]

Cos it's unrealistic!

Yeah so in the dressing room the message will be "Look boys, you're not really good enough to win by more than 13, so you may as well just try to win by like, 5 or something? Alright GO GET EM"

It's a 2 try deficit, we can make it. Either you're overestimating Ireland or underestimating Wales. Don't forget that it was a squad with 9 reserve players against Italy. (which was a mistake)

Plus Ireland didn't win comfortably against Scotland at all, it was a battle

[gaslight]

Haha, your post there reminds me of this.

http://xkcd.com/544/

[Dave de Sylvia]

Two things Pasta:

1: I was right

For Gatland, victory comes first.

“It’s about winning the game first, win the Triple Crown, deny them the Grand Slam and then see what position we are in.

2: he's getting desperate

Welsh players dislike Ireland more than any other adversary, according to their coach Warren Gatland, who this afternoon claimed the pressure is on Declan Kidney’s side ahead of their tilt at the Grand Slam at the Millennium Stadium on Saturday.

The former Ireland boss, who had a 38-Test reign on this side of the Irish sea between 1998 and 2001, says his players are “very motivated” to face an Irish side chasing their country’s first clean sweep since 1948.

He also claims Kidney’s side spent “an hour and a half” celebrating their 22-15 win over Scotland in their Murrayfield dressing room and have a history of buckling under pressure.

“Probably, out of all the teams in the Six Nations, the Welsh players dislike the Irish the most,” said Gatland today. “Players’ experiences against Ireland haven’t always been the greatest, so they are very motivated to play against them.”

Gatland’s unprovoked comments came after he named a team showing eight changes from the line-up that produced a dismal 20-15 win over wooden-spoon favourites Italy last weekend.

To retain the trophy for the first time in 30 years, Wales must win by 13 points or more - they last achieved that at Ireland’s expense 26 years ago - while a victory of any description would secure a third Triple Crown in five seasons.

For Gatland, victory comes first.

“It’s about winning the game first, win the Triple Crown, deny them the Grand Slam and then see what position we are in.

“There is a lot of pressure and expectation on the Irish team to come to our back-yard and perform.

“After the Scottish game (last Saturday), the Irish players were an hour-and-a-half in the changing room celebrating and singing, so they were clearly happy where they were at.

“It’s how they handle that pressure. There has been expectation on them over a number of years, and in a couple of World Cups as well.

“At international level, when there has been that expectation either to perform in Six Nations tournaments or World Cups, they’ve sometimes faltered a little bit.”

Few this side of the water will disagree with that. What Gatland is waiting find out, is if the Kidney factor has changed that mindset.

“It will be interesting to see how Declan handles that, and how the players handle that this week,” he said. “They’ve performed well in this Six Nations, but we’re at home with a massive crowd behind us.

“If you go back to the autumn, they [Ireland] were talking themselves up a lot before the All Blacks game - and they really performed poorly in that game.

“We’ve got to really concentrate on ourselves and put them under as much pressure as we can.”

Gatland admits he made too many changes against Italy and got things wrong tactically but is adamant that if his side perform, it can “win well”.

“We feel we haven’t played as well as we could have done in this Six Nations, and we want to address that,” said the Kiwi. “To win the title again would be a massive achievement. If we play to our potential on Saturday, we are capable of winning and winning well.

“I don’t mind admitting we have left ourselves with a lot to do to win the championship.

“But on the other hand, the 13-point deficit is by no means insurmountable.

“There is also a Triple Crown at stake, and we know only too well in Wales that Grand Slams don’t come cheaply.

“We’ve won two (Grand Slams) in the last decade, and so all the pressure will be on Ireland to grab only the second in their history.

“With a healthy headstart, you have to say Ireland are probably favourites to take the title," he added. "But we are confident we can come up with a win - and who knows what will happen if we can get ourselves ahead in the game and that Millennium Stadium factor begins to kick in?”

[mph4ever]

ok, heres the deal

wales will win the first half, maybe even by a couple of tries. if ireland do a good job then wales might go in by a penatly or two. ireland will soak it up for the first 15 to 20 mins of the second half and then pound wales flat running out easy winners, tight on the scoreline, tactically way ahead. on the back of this o'driscoll will be asked to captain the lions tour and he will retire before the world cup in 2011

[Pastorius]

bleh, what a self defeating position to put yourself in

don't play to deny someone else victory, play to WIN

edit: although, having read that longer part, it seems like he's just trying to play it down. get the victory then see where we are doesn't apply at 75 minutes etc

[mph4ever]

the irish boys had a couple of beers after the scottish game, flew back the same day, trained for the next two days, had a day off, fly out tomorrow and will be ready for they game.

its in the bag, kidney will make sure of that, he knows the squad has been under utilised during o'sullivan's reign and has set about rectifying that immediately.

these lads are playing for the lions tour as some will retire from international rugby before the world cup. they have realistic expectations.

poor old gatland obviously gone and done a benitez on it.

[Pastorius]

lets hope ireland are united then eh?

[mph4ever]

lets hope ireland are united then eh?

win

[Dave de Sylvia]

lets hope ireland are united then eh?
You want Ireland to lose to your team but win the championship? What a self-defeating position to put yourself in!

[Pastorius]

Nah, I want them to lose 4 tries to 1!

[Dave de Sylvia]

I believe they have devised a more complex scoring system!

[Pastorius]

Still, 4 tries to 1 would suit me!

[Dave de Sylvia]

Tomorrow's the day XD

[gaslight]

Sure is. I got Setanta sports yesterday and the games start at midnight here so I'm having late one.

[Pastorius]

Heeeeeeere we go, it's rugby day :D

[mph4ever]

this is the one, huge

[Pastorius]

France Italy hasn't been too bad so far, France looking a lot better this week, Italy looking their usual bullish selves. Outclassed by France in the end though.

[Pastorius]

....well there's proof of that previous post.

[gaslight]

Yeah, try fest on hand here I think.

Anyone catch the Super rugby, Chiefs vs Blues? That was a try fest, 14 of them all up.

Do you think they'll have better cameras at Cardiff? The picture quality on this France/Italy game isn't so hot where I am.

[Pastorius]

There'll be the best cameras money can buy I would imagine. I wish I was back in Cardiff, it'll be an absolutely fantastic atmosphere.

[gaslight]

Smashing. I think France have this one in the bag. Who do you think will win England v Scotland? I haven't gotten to watch their matches so I'm not sure what their form is like.

[Pastorius]

If the same England team as last week turn up they'll win. But Scotland are no joke, they're improved a lot, but at the end of the day I don't think their defence will be able to hold back the English onslaught.

[gaslight]

How exciting. I've never gotten to watch the Six Nations on tele before.

:cool:

[Pastorius]

Well I think it's great that you're taking an interest tbh. It's always a fantastic tournament, and creates so many fantastic weekends. The atmosphere is always great for matches, packs out the pubs.

[gaslight]

Yeah, pay TV is pretty much the only way you can check out any European/UK rugby in this country. That or go to a sports bar, but I like to be able to change the channel when I feel like it.

I hope they televise a good deal of the British & Irish Lions tour to SA later in the year.

[Pastorius]

Don't expect to see many English players in that Lions squad!

[gaslight]

Haha yeah. It's a pretty enviable set of players to be able to pick from, I imagine it'll have O'Driscoll, Williams and O'Gara for starters. I don't know too much about the forwards for those teams though.

[Pastorius]

I wouldn't put O'Gara in for number 10, I'd prefer Steven Jones there.

Forwards, I'd say...

1. Gethyn Jenkins
2. Jerry Flannery
3. Adam Jones
4. Ryan Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Martin Williams
7. Tom Croft
8. Jamie Heaslip

[gaslight]

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about Jones. I had him in my team in playstation rugby.

[Pastorius]

My god, that was a brilliant try. Unbelievable.

[gaslight]

To sideburns guy?

[Pastorius]

Yeah. Such a French try.

[gaslight]

Yeah, that game left no room for misinterpretation.

[gaslight]

Oh that is an ugly hit. KO. Let's hope he's okay.

[Pastorius]

I hope he's ok, I'm a Tigers fan. Although Dupuy is a good 9 as well. Watch out for Dupuy in the French side soon.

[gaslight]

Hopefully it was just a knockout rather than an actual neck injury. Head doesn't play well against hip.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Scotland look like conceding everything England get the ball in their half. Unlucky Evans didn't touch down before he was nudged out, and Blair really should have set up a try with his break.

edit: bollocks! Powell is out :'(

[gaslight]

Yeah that was very close to a try.

[Pastorius]

Powell out, that's a bit bunk. But he wasn't looking at his best in the past few games. Ryan Jones can fill in juuuuust fine.

[gaslight]

In southern hemisphere news, the Brumbies should be kicked out of the Super 14 after this loss to the Lions. Shameful.

I hope Wales v Ireland cheers me up.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Powell out, that's a bit bunk. But he wasn't looking at his best in the past few games. Ryan Jones can fill in juuuuust fine.
I can honestly say that the entire island of Ireland was praying for Powell to be passed fit. We're all devastated.

England are making very hard work of Scotland. Discipline issues have been cropping up in defence again.

[gaslight]

Yeah, this is a very scrappy game. Huge crowd. Scotland within range of winning it but it'll be hard work.

[Dave de Sylvia]

They'll be kicking themselves. Godman's kick was inches away and there are holes in this English defence.

[gaslight]

Yeah man that kick needed to double-jump, it would have made it. He'll definitely kick this one.

[Dave de Sylvia]

18-12 haha

Chris Paterson's kicking record is insane. It's like 2 full years since he's missed for Scotland.

[Pastorius]

Come on Scotland! Punish these English bastards.

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's probably out of their reach now. Scotland don't really have the killer instinct to beat anybody, it seems. They've been close to all the main four in this tournament so far and come up short each time.

[gaslight]

That drop goal has done them in.

Shame really, I back anyone against England.

[Pastorius]

Piss. Stupid drop goal.

[Dave de Sylvia]

10 minutes pasta

[gaslight]

Ah well. Game over. Let's go Wales :smash:.

Oops, apparently there's time for another knock-out. Heavy.

[Pastorius]

Come on, I am so pumped. Up the leeks!

[mph4ever]

wales to dominate first half, lead at half time, ireland to come back in second half for the win

[Dave de Sylvia]

Ryan Jones- scumbag!

[gaslight]

Having a blue in the first minute? Not mucking about tonight. That trip was a stupid way to start for the Welsh.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Good start by Ireland. Great break by D'Arcy and forcing an early mistake by Byrne.

[gaslight]

Beautiful pitch.

[Pastorius]

**** you mph

HERE WE GOOOOO

[Dave de Sylvia]

Nervy start from both sides it seems. Wales have made a couple of great breaks and we'll need to prevent their offloads more effectively. The Welsh are really hammering O'Gara.

[gaslight]

I do hope Wales win by more than 13. That would make my day.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Stop being a fag gaslight!

p.s. great kick from O'Leary

[Pastorius]

lol, that one wasn't

[Dave de Sylvia]

haha yeah it was shocking

I do love an ill-tempered match. The quality of the rugby has been as good as any match I can remember this championship. Let's hope it either continues or all the Welsh players die somehow.

O'Gara's looked very nervy- he just did an O'Leary

[Pastorius]

God this game is shaping up to be good. First score will be vital.

[Dave de Sylvia]

If there ever is a first score.

[Pastorius]

Ireland look like they've got the momentum now, ever so slightly. Could go either way though.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Momentum doesn't really count for much when you have players like Byrne and Williams in the backs. The pattern suits Ireland though- the defences are on top so far, and that's how we beat England and Scotland.

[Pastorius]

Come on Henson, kick this mate.

edit: or not

Oh what, byrne off.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well that only took more than half an hour!

[Pastorius]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, well held up wales defence.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Got very lucky with that one after botching your lineout.

[Pastorius]

Line outs have been absolutely awful from Wales. If we tidy that up we might be able to take advantage of some decent kicking.

Lush kick from Jones.

[Dave de Sylvia]

bah

[Pastorius]

Come on, that kick was perfect.

[mph4ever]

all going according to plan

[Dave de Sylvia]

That has to be a try!

[Dave de Sylvia]

It is!

[Dave de Sylvia]

Tommy Bowe!

[gaslight]

Harden up Wales.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Jesus, that's some turnaround from O'Gara. He couldn't hit his mother in the first half.

[Dave de Sylvia]

ugh 2 completely stupid penalties

[gaslight]

What's with this Welsh line-out? Not so flash.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Paul O'Connell is the matter with it. Ireland are bottling it again :(

[Dave de Sylvia]

I think I am going to die.

[gaslight]

Decent match.

Sad end for Wales but if you don't score tries that's the way it goes.

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's sad for Stephen Jones to have missed the kick, since he had been so good up until then. Wales didn't do enough to deserve winning the match, as hard as Ireland tried to gift them with penalties and fumble the ball under no pressure at every opportunity.

[Pastorius]

Well, congratulations to Ireland, quite the team. Phenomenal forwards even if they gave away a lot of penalties today.

Ireland really deserved the grand slam, hats off to them. The Irish will have a fantastic night tonight.

[gaslight]

Now I have to decide whether to sleep through the day or just go a night without sleeping. Lucky for me the sun just came up on a Sunday and I've got nothing to do.

[Pastorius]

4th place, that smarts. I wonder how that match would have gone if we hadn't fielded a bunk team against Italy. Well, Ireland deserved it.

Really happy for the Ireland lads though, they looked so happy. Almost glad we lost really

[gaslight]

Yeah, good on them. Rather see a good team make history than make a few dollars on a bet.

[Pastorius]

Yeah, I'd way rather they win than us have a paltry 1 point victory. Although we did lose 500,000 pounds in prize money, and an England team with 1 good performance got 2nd place.

[mph4ever]

that was excellent sport. one of my friends sons was brian o'driscolls best mate. he topped himself last year. i reckon brian will dedicate his performance to him

can look forward to a lions team that will have plenty of irish and welsh in it. no more than they deserve based on this season

[Dave de Sylvia]

I don't think anybody could seriously believe that England were the second best team this year.

Lee Byrne going off proved to be the turning point in the end. Henson's lack of suitability for full back was completely exposed- it was an awful decision to go for the ball when he had cover.

[Nadinus]

yay a rugby thread. cba reading up until this page though :\

[Pastorius]

We can talk about anything rugby wise!

Anyone here watch the Guinness?

[Dave de Sylvia]

Should I just make this the general rugby thread? We've tried this before and usually people stop caring right after the 6Ns finishes.

[Pastorius]

Yeah go for it.

Tigers absolutely smashed Saracens today, with a much weakened squad, 6 tries!

I'm not gonna stop caring, I love rugby!

[gaslight]

Yeah 6 Nations is hardly my main focus in rugby. Try a rugby thread for sure.

Can't believe the Brumbies lost to the Lions, giving up a bonus point without even earning one for themselves. Worst I've seen the Brumbies in a long while. Waratahs very disappointing against the Crusaders too. Just not my week to tip rugby.

[Pastorius]

I should start watching Southern Hemisphere club rugby more.

[mph4ever]

Should I just make this the general rugby thread?

yes

[Dave de Sylvia]

I don't like the fact that the Premiership keeps going during the 6 Nations. I mean, I'm not a big fan, but it just seems pointless to have a league where you play second-string sides for 5-6 weeks of the season.

[gaslight]

It probably just comes down to scheduling, can't be playing rugby all year.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well the Celtic League stops for the 6 Nations, and the fringe players are generally allowed back for the matches in the off-weeks. The English Premiership and French Top 14 aren't run by the national rugby unions, so they continue even when internationals are playing. I'm sure it generates more money, but the effect on the national teams, judging by the past couple of months, hasn't been great.

[gaslight]

Yeah I can see what you mean, it'd be a bother not having your top guys available for selection.

We don't really have a similar thing in southern hemisphere rugby, occassionally there's national team duty towards the start of the Super 14 but that's about it. It all wraps up well in time for the Tri-Nations.

That'll be a great tournament this year, the top 3 ranked international teams playing off. There's going to be a very strong All Blacks side based on some of the form in their Super 14 sides.

[Smokey D]

The Bulls and Sharks look the strongest teams in the Super 14, which indicates that South Africa is going to be very hard to beat this year. I don't envy the Lions. I haven't been particularly impressed with the New Zealand sides, given that our highest rank team has been on the wrong end of two 50< hidings. Our set pieces have been at best inconsistent, and line outs generally atrocious, although that's not necessarily an indication that the All Blacks' stuff will be as bad.

Things will change when Dan, Richie, Luke McAlister and some other high fliers return, but I reckon this will be NZ's most difficult year in a long time. Part of the problem seems to be that the Crusaders are adrift in post-Deans wilderness when normally they form the foundation for the All Blacks.

[Dave de Sylvia]

What exactly was the point of Dan Carter's move to Perpignan? He joined a team that needed a miracle to qualify for the quarter finals of the Heinken Cup, and they didn't even come close.

[Smokey D]

They gave him lots of money and he wanted to experience life outside New Zealand and without a raft of New Zealand born players.

[Dave de Sylvia]

But why didn't he join a good team? I'm sure he would have been offered as much money at Leicester or Toulouse.

[Smokey D]

He said he specifically wanted to experience life in France, so that rules out Leicester. I dunno why he picked Perpignan over Toulouse. I assume Perpignan offered more money.

[Dave de Sylvia]

haha you don't seem to have an awfully high opinion of him

[Smokey D]

Why do you say that? Money is always the motivation for players to go overseas. I don't see why DC would be different just coz he's better than everyone else.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I don't know. Rocky Elsom signed for Leinster and Doug Howlett for Munster, and neither side can offer anything close to the wage packets available in France or England, or South Africa for that matter.

[gaslight]

That was a bit of a fiasco the whole Dan Carter thing, all that fuss and all that money and then bang, hurts himself.

The Crusaders are having a shocker this year, I don't expect them to even finish in the Top 4, but even without them at the helm I think the New Zealand team will be a force come the Tri-Nations. I've been quite impressed with the Chiefs ever since week 3. Chiefs vs Blues was the most entertaining match of the season so far.

I think Carter went for the money too, nothing wrong with it. If I were as good as Carter I'd check out all the offers, pick the biggest one and tell them to double it. Obviously not every player has the same motivations, but I'd say his was to get the highest paid holiday he could.

[Smokey D]

I don't know. Rocky Elsom signed for Leinster and Doug Howlett for Munster, and neither side can offer anything close to the wage packets available in France or England, or South Africa for that matter.

Carter is at the height of his powers and can pretty much change a game by himself. As gaslight says, he would pretty much be in the position to name his price. As good as Douggie is, he can't do that. I dunno so much about Rocky Elsom.

Of course non-financial motivations come in somewhere, but obviously that's a major motivation. As I said, I don't know why Carter picked Perpignan. Maybe he liked the feel of the town or something.

[gaslight]

I'm really bummed that we lost Elsom to overseas :(. On his good days he's worth two players. A big loss to the Waratahs for this season.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Elsom is immense. I hope he settles in Ireland.
Carter is at the height of his powers and can pretty much change a game by himself. As gaslight says, he would pretty much be in the position to name his price. As good as Douggie is, he can't do that. I dunno so much about Rocky Elsom.

Of course non-financial motivations come in somewhere, but obviously that's a major motivation. As I said, I don't know why Carter picked Perpignan. Maybe he liked the feel of the town or something.
But I mean Howlett and Elsom could (and more than likely were) offered more money elsewhere. Their moves couldn't have been motivated entirely by money, especially when they probably would have got more at home. Carter could have signed for any team in Europe- he's that good- and he signed for a second-rate side that's never likely to contend for real honours.

[gaslight]

Yeah, so clearly Howlett and Elsom had other motivations besides cash. I think Carter wanted a certain area to move to for a while, plus tidy enough money, and I dare say he was after a club where he could enjoy a bit of a respite from all the pressure and obsessive competitiveness of NZ rugby.

[Smokey D]

Yeah. I don't think he was going there to make a name for himself in European rugby or to improve his game. It seems like he wanted a cushy working holiday with a decent pay packet.

But I mean Howlett and Elsom could (and more than likely were) offered more money elsewhere

But my point is Dan could have asked for and got an immense sum even at a second rate club.

Also, is the Saracens management going ahead with its South Africanization plan?

[Pastorius]

This new thread title is not appreciated :(

[mph4ever]

sure it is. gatland is a plonker, lost it on them

watched london irish today. excellent game. have to question the irishness of some of their players though!

homer looks good

[Pastorius]

I heard that London Welsh are looking to join the Magners, would be good.

[mph4ever]

I heard that London Welsh are looking to join the Magners, would be good.

would be very good

[Aaron]

Vaguely on topic; I'm going back to playing after 5 years off. Hard training schedule is hard. Was offered a spot in outside centre but thinking I might bulk a bit and play breakaway [old position].

[Pastorius]

I'm going back to playing too, been strengthening my back ready to join the front row again. Need to work my cardio loads first though.

I take it breakaway is either wing or flanker

[Aaron]

I'm going back to playing too, been strengthening my back ready to join the front row again. Need to work my cardio loads first though.

I take it breakaway is either wing or flanker
Flanker. I'm old-school, lol.

[mph4ever]

i gave up playing, once you drop to the fourths the game gets dangerous beyond benefit!

[Aaron]

Haha yeah. Lower divisions is where silly decisions are made. I'm aiming to play second division once I'm back in the swing of it. 1sts here is pretty competitive but 2nd isn't too far behind, just doesn't have the inter-club rivalry, it's more fun and fitness orientated while still being taken serious by the players. 3rd is full of ex-pros who've done their knees, lol, so they're slow but still rip your head off if they get hold of you.

[Pastorius]

That's when it becomes easy! 4ths is always fat old guys that you can outscrum easily

[Aaron]

I find those old blokes really dangerous. They've still got the technique but really don't realise how poor their fitness is and do damage to others doing silly things.

[Pastorius]

I always found I did more damage to them when I was playing in the 4ths, I was like 17

[Aaron]

Our comp may be structured a bit different, untill you're 19 you play in age-based divisions like juniors. 16s and under, 16s to 17s, 18s, then 19s onwards is open.

[Pastorius]

Yeah we have juniors til you're 19 too, but they still asked if we wanted to play for the 4ths if they were short a few players. We normally just came on as subs.

[Aaron]

Ah rightio. Only 18s could sub-up for us. We've got a big islander and maori population here so there's some big dudes playing in the opens. I once [quite proudly] took down a guy who made Matt Dunning look like a cyclist. He said last time he weighed himself he was 129kg, and was 5'10". I guess if you're built like that you can get away with the name Stacey. lol.

[Pastorius]

I don't think we were meant to be playing officially, but hey, it was fun! I've always been a deadly runner, high mass and low centre of gravity means I'm hard to tackle 1 on 1

[Aaron]

I'm similar. I'm probably too big for a centre, but it works to have someone back there who can actually tackle someone if needed.

[Pastorius]

Pffffft too big for a centre, have you seen Bastareaud?

[Aaron]

Tru dat.

[gaslight]

You can get all kinds on sizes in positions these days. Lots of backs getting up around 100kg.

Basteraud is huge.

[Smokey D]

Don't the ELVs punish big players?

On a related note are the ELVs a good thing?

Also, can someone explain to me the difference between the ELVs and the hybrid ELVs?

[gaslight]

I don't see how the ELVs punish big players.

I haven't really memorised the rules of them yet, the only one I really remember is that if the ball is carried back into the 22, and kicked out on the full, it's return-to-sender for the lineout.

Try these, could be out of date though.

http://www.planetrugby.com/Story/0,18259,3943_3083712,00.html

[Smokey D]

I don't see how the ELVs punish big players.

Because there's less stopping, so you have to be fitter. I dunno, it's something they bring up in commentary every so often.

[gaslight]

Oh. Big as in fat then yeah, it does mean players have to be better conditioned. Rugby has been going that way for a lot longer than the ELVs though.

[Dave de Sylvia]

One of the reaons being cited for Brian O'Driscoll' return to form this season is that he has lost a lot of muscle mass since last year (i.e. he no longer looks like Thing from Fantastic Four). I don't think the ELVs punish big players, but it's definitely reduced the need for backs to throw themselves into rucks and whatnot.

I think we've seen the best and worst of the new rules in this 6N (can't comment on the Super 14 since I don't have access, but I've heard this season has been dreadful): in the opening match we had Poitrenaud and Kearney, the two most exciting full backs in the NH, running ball from deep at almost every opportunity and it made for an incredibly open game. After that, both sides seemed to resort to the aerial ping-pong (hate that phrase) that so many have been complaining about. I can definitely see what they're getting at with that rule, and perhaps it just requires a change in culture from grass-roots, but I don't think it's doing the professional game any good at the moment.

[gaslight]

If you can get a hold of the Chiefs v Blues game from last week, I think it's the best example I've seen of the ELVs being used and most importantly refereed properly, it was a fast moving game, lots of action from both teams, whole lot of tries, everyone had a blast.

Then there was the Bulls v Hurricanes game which was over-refereed at the breakdown I think, there ended up being an abundance of free kicks and ended up being 5 yellow cards and a red handed out.

[Pastorius]

The ELV's I can remember are:

Carrying the ball back into your own 22 means you can't kick it out on the full.

You are allowed to bring the mall down if you bring it down above the waist i.e. no throwing yourself at people's knees

No entering the rucks off your feet

[Dave de Sylvia]

The ELV's I can remember are:

Carrying the ball back into your own 22 means you can't kick it out on the full.
If only Stephen Jones had rememebered!

[Pastorius]

Why I oughta

[Dave de Sylvia]

Jesus, Ospreys were hammered today. Another brilliant week for Welsh sport draws to a close!

[Pastorius]

Cardiff beat Northampton? Not too bad.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well Cardiff are better than Northampton so that's hardly a surprise. Can't believe Ospreys didn't even get a point on the board though; they had like 2/3 possession and territory.

[Pastorius]

Not a disastrous week though, considering.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Which Welsh team do you support, if any?

[Pastorius]

Tigers are my first team, Blues my second. My pap is from Leicester but I grew up in Cardiff.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Ah. I figured since you were a Liverpool fan you were from the border area. Guess not!

What do you reckon of Blues' chances against Toulouse? I know you guys are 6/6 and French rugby is lol right now, but it's not a fixture I'd ever want to be facing.

[Pastorius]

French rugby is lol right now, but French club rugby is still very strong. To be honest I think they might beat us, but Cardiff will put up a massive challenge.

[Dave de Sylvia]

French club rugby is in a bit of a jocker too. I can't remember the last time only one French time qualified for the quarters, if any.

[Pastorius]

True, they've had a shocking outing there.

[gaslight]

Jesus, let's hope this guy pulls through :(.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=795050

[Pastorius]

That's terrible, hope he's ok.

Tigers sold Varndell to Wasps, I always liked him, speedy as hell.

[Dave de Sylvia]

The maul is back, but most of the other ELVs passed:

Recommended for adoption into law :

Law 6 – Assistant Referees allowed

Law 19 – Kicking directly into touch from ball played back into 22 equals no gain in ground

Law 19 – Quick throw permitted in any direction except forward

Law 19 – Positioning of player in opposition to the player throwing-in to be two metres away from lineout and the line of touch

Law 19 – Pre-gripping of lineout jumpers allowed

Law 19 – Lifting in the lineout allowed

Law 19 – Positioning of receiver must be two metres away from lineout

Law 20 – Five-metre offside line at the scrum

Law 20 — Scrumhalf offside line at the scrum

Law 22 – Corner posts no longer touch in goal

Not recommended for adoption into law :

Law 17 — Maul — head and shoulders not to be lower than hips

Law 17 — Maul — pulling down the maul

Law 19 – Freedom for each team to determine lineout numbers

[Pastorius]

To be honest lots of them make sense. Especially the pre-gripping, makes line outs better, and people did it anyway.

Oh yeah...who's going to the EDF final? Woooo, Twickers here I come!

[Dave de Sylvia]

Nobody cares about the EDF!

Ospreys overcame Ulster tonight: class overcoming the more deserving team. Blues lost again lol

Munster vs Leinster tomorrow: Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll are both missing for Leinster, so Munster have to be considered the odds-on favourites.

[gaslight]

Catching the end of Leicester v Sale. I love this Setanta Sports, before I got it I had no sport to watch between 3 and 6 in the morning.

Super 14 went pretty much the way I tipped it this weekend in results if not in scorelines. Only thing I got wrong was going the Bulls over the Crusaders, hard team to predict this season.

[Pastorius]

Caught the end of Munster Leinster, was good, Munster looked good.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I wasn't able to see it, but Leinster seemed to have an eye on the Quins match. Looks like Munster will stroll to the title in any case.

[Pastorius]

Wish I'd seen the Leicester Sale match, sounds like a good one.

TOP OF THE LEAGUE OOOH YEEEAH

[gaslight]

Sad news update here.

Brumbies player Shawn Mackay passed away this morning in a hospital in Durban after contracting a bloodstream infection and suffering a cardiac arrest only shortly after being brought out of a medically induced coma during which he underwent spinal surgery and other treatment for injuries suffered on March 29 when he was hit by an armoured response vehicle while crossing a street.

RIP Shawn Mackay :( no man should lose his life on a rugby tour. A sad end to a tragic event, when he seemed to be set to recover over time. Let's hope the driver of the vehicle is at least brought to some justice if he was driving negligently as early reports suggested.

[Pastorius]

Awww man, that sucks. No-one should be taken out of the prime of their life like that.

If it's an armoured response vehicle, he probably won't be brought to justice. Police rarely are.

[gaslight]

Wasn't a police vehicle though apparently, some kind of private security firm.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Wish I'd seen the Leicester Sale match, sounds like a good one.

TOP OF THE LEAGUE OOOH YEEEAH
That was some punch on Sheridan.

[Pastorius]

Ha ha, punch = knuckle graze

What a dick Sheridan is, bloody footballer.

[Dave de Sylvia]

He reminds me too much of a guy I went to school with, whose nickname was "Punch," incidentally.

What are you predictions for the weekend?

I can't really see past 4 home wins at the moment, although I'm desperate for a Leinster victory.

[Pastorius]

I'm thinking Toulouse will probably win by a small margin, Leicester will beat Bath, Munster will smash Ospreys, and I'm undecided about Leinster Quins.

I'm just looking forward to a day down the pub on Saturday.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I was heartened by the fashion in which Quins were demolished by Ulster, but up until that point they'd looked fantastic. Leinster generally don't rise to the big occasion anyway, and it'll be doubly difficult away from home.

[Pastorius]

Bath have a chance, it's not at Welford Road, but it's still in Leicester. Here's hoping Butch James's boot turns into a fifty pence piece again.

[gaslight]

Haha wow, the 14th ranked Cheetahs have dispatched the 1st ranked Sharks with impunity. Upset of the season for Super 14.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Blues edge out Toulouse 9-6 = no French teams in the semis :D

Leicester's try at the end was incredible- completely improvised piece of genius that deserved to win any match. You have to ask yourself what sort of special person misses a conversion from there though.

[Pastorius]

I've always loved Dupuy, I think he might be going at the end of the season though. 3 top scrum halves means someone has to go.

There was 1 Tigers fan (me) and 1 Bath fan in the pub I was at, good times for me.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I would take Dupuy over Ellis by a mile. Oh well, it could be worse- you could be Wasps!

Two Irish teams won today \m/