Let's Play a Game

[Moseph]

Okay, here's the idea: One person posts a weird situation with a recording/live sound/audio problem (preferably one for which some acceptable solution was eventually found), and then everyone else post potential solutions for it. We don't need to do this sequentially, if you've got another scenario feel free to tack onto it.

When posting solutions, make use of the Quote function to help cut down on confusion.

If nobody gets the original solution within about 48 hours, the OP should post the determined solution (unless a fix was never found). If somebody posts the original solution, let them know that.

Audio/visual examples are encouraged where appropriate.

I'll start as an example (and I'll post more if this thread is popular):

Home studio recording situation.

Loud guitar amp and fully mic'd drum kit. Those in charge of the session want to avoid bleed to make mix-down less of a headache, but they also prefer to cut the takes live as a band.

The band also wants to play in the same room so they can make eye contact for solos, start/stops, etc.

You have plenty of mic cabling, so it's decided that to mic up the guitar amp in another room about 50 feet away.

The guitar input cable is 20 feet long. On top of that, the guitarist wants to use his amp footswitches, and the cable for those is only 15 feet long.

How do you provide guitar input and footswitch input to the guitar amp with the guitar player in the same room as the rest of the band 50 feet away from the amp?

[EADGCF]

It seems too obvious, but longer cables.

Female-to-female 1/4" would do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Moseph]

It seems too obvious, but longer cables.

Female-to-female 1/4" would do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

It's a little too obvious, because it has inherent problems. The reason guitar cables aren't long is that they can't be: getting longer than about 20-25 ft leads to noise/signal loss/distortion problems in most realistic situations.

Maybe I should've mentioned that I did it without issues.

[Motleyguy]

Home studio recording situation.

Loud guitar amp and fully mic'd drum kit. Those in charge of the session want to avoid bleed to make mix-down less of a headache, but they also prefer to cut the takes live as a band.

The band also wants to play in the same room so they can make eye contact for solos, start/stops, etc.

You have plenty of mic cabling, so it's decided that to mic up the guitar amp in another room about 50 feet away.

The guitar input cable is 20 feet long. On top of that, the guitarist wants to use his amp footswitches, and the cable for those is only 15 feet long.

How do you provide guitar input and footswitch input to the guitar amp with the guitar player in the same room as the rest of the band 50 feet away from the amp?

My immediate thought would be to use the thru function on a DI box... Another solution could be to DI the guitar and use an amp sim (assuming you're using a DAW) to send to the headphones for the tracking, then re amp later.

[pikester]

You could go Guitar->DI->Pre-amp->Balanced line signal via XLR (which you have lots of)->Re-amp box/passive DI->Amp. Not really ideal, and doesn't really solve the footswitch thing. I'd probably be grabbing a DI track to re-amp later anyways, though.

If the amp is half stack, the Head could be hanging out in the live room (or 15 feet towards the other room), with the Cab in the other room, with speaker cable run between. The amp signal to the cab should be hot enough to minimize any sort of long cable run interference/degradation.

[EADGCF]

Wireless system. :cool:

[Moseph]

My immediate thought would be to use the thru function on a DI box... Another solution could be to DI the guitar and use an amp sim (assuming you're using a DAW) to send to the headphones for the tracking, then re amp later.

Yeah, that's more or less it. I did in a less expensive fashion though:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062444

Those are less expensive than even the least expensive DI boxes. And since I was feeding an amp and not a pre-amp, I wasn't too worried about the effective impedance, I just wanted to balance the cables.

You could go Guitar->DI->Pre-amp->Balanced line signal via XLR (which you have lots of)->Re-amp box/passive DI->Amp. Not really ideal, and doesn't really solve the footswitch thing. I'd probably be grabbing a DI track to re-amp later anyways, though.

This is the key to the whole situation which gave me the idea. We didn't have enough guitar cables even if we wanted to daisy-chain them (which I didn't). I happened to have several dozen XLRs though.


Wireless system. :cool:

Responses like that are the reason I started this thread: I want to hear outside-the-box ideas if you've got them.

[fishbulb]

Would a wireless system work in this case?

I'm just curious if there are any latency issues with it.

[EADGCF]

Would a wireless system work in this case?

I'm just curious if there are any latency issues with it.

Good question.

[Moseph]

Would a wireless system work in this case?

I'm just curious if there are any latency issues with it.

Couldn't say for sure, but I don't see why there would be problems.

Most wireless systems are actually relatively simple Amplitude or Frequency modulation, so there's no digital conversion to worry about. After all, wireless mics don't have noticeable latency, do they?

[Aaron]

I'd go for one of those multicable things, the switchboxes; dunno their names. Guitar > DI > Multicable > Mixer...

[Motleyguy]

you're thinking of an A/B/Y switcher box.

[Aaron]

Nein:

http://www.swamp.net.au/store/images/productimages/Large/Multi24_30.jpg

24 Channel 30m Multicore with Stage Box

[Moseph]

I'd go for one of those multicable things, the switchboxes; dunno their names. Guitar > DI > Multicable > Mixer...

I'm not following how this solves the issue. The issue I'm talking about was getting a guitar input and footswitch input to the amp, not the mixer. We were micing the amps already.

[Moseph]

Okay, new situation.

You're recording a large group (my personal experience, this was a big band jazz ensemble) using a computer and interface on-location. You have plenty of mics, cabling, and preamps external to your interface, and you're concerned with maximizing your potential inputs. You don't need to provide the ensemble with monitoring.

Your interface is a firewire-type with 8 native analog inputs, 1 ADAT lightpipe input, and S/PDIF. You have no preamps on the interface. You do have an 8-channel ADAT Lightpipe conversion unit, but it only takes line level signals.

You have accessible to you a Mackie 1604 VLZ mixer, a Presonus BlueTube DP, a Tascam DA-45HR DAT machine, an Alesis Masterlink, and a Rane SM 82s mixer.

How can you get 18 discrete channels into the computer for the gig?

[Seafroggys]

You have 8 with the main unit, 8 through lightpipe, and 2 through SPDIF for 18. I'd have to research each of the other units individually to see what connections they have and how many preamps they have.

[Moseph]

You have 8 with the main unit, 8 through lightpipe, and 2 through SPDIF for 18. I'd have to research each of the other units individually to see what connections they have and how many preamps they have.

Yeah, that's not the crux of the issue. I already said what the potential inputs are, the puzzle was what devices you use to feed them. Research should only take like 15 minutes of searching and reading if you know what you're looking for.

[Aaron]

I'm not following how this solves the issue. The issue I'm talking about was getting a guitar input and footswitch input to the amp, not the mixer. We were micing the amps already.
I thought it was the reverse; having the mixer in another room to everything else.

[Aus_rock_god]

Okay, here's the idea: One person posts a weird situation with a recording/live sound/audio problem (preferably one for which some acceptable solution was eventually found), and then everyone else post potential solutions for it. We don't need to do this sequentially, if you've got another scenario feel free to tack onto it.

When posting solutions, make use of the Quote function to help cut down on confusion.

If nobody gets the original solution within about 48 hours, the OP should post the determined solution (unless a fix was never found). If somebody posts the original solution, let them know that.

Audio/visual examples are encouraged where appropriate.

I'll start as an example (and I'll post more if this thread is popular):

Home studio recording situation.

Loud guitar amp and fully mic'd drum kit. Those in charge of the session want to avoid bleed to make mix-down less of a headache, but they also prefer to cut the takes live as a band.

The band also wants to play in the same room so they can make eye contact for solos, start/stops, etc.

You have plenty of mic cabling, so it's decided that to mic up the guitar amp in another room about 50 feet away.

The guitar input cable is 20 feet long. On top of that, the guitarist wants to use his amp footswitches, and the cable for those is only 15 feet long.

How do you provide guitar input and footswitch input to the guitar amp with the guitar player in the same room as the rest of the band 50 feet away from the amp?

Is the footswitch a contact footswitch, or one of those wacky MIDI ones?

[Moseph]

I thought it was the reverse; having the mixer in another room to everything else.

No, the issue was having the amp far removed from the musicians, and needing to get a guitar cable and footswitch cable, both of which aren't really intended to send signal long distances, to the amp while keeping the guitarist in plain site of the rest of the band. In this scenario, it can be assumed that getting the mic inputs in to the mixer is easily attained because that detail is sort of incidental to the real issue.

[Tripp_chaos]

web cam to the guitarist in the room with the gear sending direct signal to the others? Sorry if that's a stupid answer but it is a quick solution...

[Aus_rock_god]

Assuming that it's a contact footswitch, I'd just run an ordinary, run-of-the-mill, guitar lead from the room with the amp in it, to the room with the band in it for the guitar input.

For the footswitch, I'd extend the lead with a stereo phono lead and a female-female stereo phono adapter.

Tie a knot around any adapters on the leads so they don't fall out if someone trips over them during recording (takes life out of your leads, but it's better than f*cking a recording).

[Moseph]

Okay, new situation.

You're recording a large group (my personal experience, this was a big band jazz ensemble) using a computer and interface on-location. You have plenty of mics, cabling, and preamps external to your interface, and you're concerned with maximizing your potential inputs. You don't need to provide the ensemble with monitoring.

Your interface is a firewire-type with 8 native analog inputs, 1 ADAT lightpipe input, and S/PDIF. You have no preamps on the interface. You do have an 8-channel ADAT Lightpipe conversion unit, but it only takes line level signals.

You have accessible to you a Mackie 1604 VLZ mixer, a Presonus BlueTube DP, a Tascam DA-45HR DAT machine, an Alesis Masterlink, and a Rane SM 82s mixer.

How can you get 18 discrete channels into the computer for the gig?

Nobody even really took a swing at this one?

Anyway, the two things that were key to this setup for me, was that the Mackie mixer was a 4-bus mixer with direct outputs, and we had the Masterlink/DAT machine on hand.

I could use the Direct Outputs to access the first 8 preamps/EQs/faders of the Mackie, then for the remaining 8 channels on the mixer I could pan each channel hard left/right and send to one of sub-busses, or use an aux send. The sub-busses have additional direct outputs on the back so each bus became a mono output source extending from a channel. The setup on the 1604 looked like this:

[01 - 08] Direct Out 01-08 (respectively)
[09/10] Bus 1-2 L/R (respectively)
[11/12] Bus 3-4 L/R (respectively)
[13-16] Aux Send 1-4 (respectively)

That gets 16 channels with pres into the interface.

The remaining 2 are a little bit outside the box. The key to remember is that both the DA-45HR and the Masterlink are designed to output both to analog and digital during all operation. So you feed the mic signals into either one of the remaining preamp devices (we used the BlueTube DP because it was easier to transport) and then feed the outputs of that into the balanced analog ins of one of the media devices (we used the Masterlink because it weighed less and was easier to carry). Then you tap the S/PDIF outputs of the media device to get the last 2 channels.

[Moseph]

Okay, here's a good one.

Using a stereo mixer (we'll stick with the Mackie 1064 VLZ if you need to think of a specific one), how would you control the outputs to monitor in 5.1 surround. Bonus points if you can maintain discrete control over bass management/sub.

Assume you only need to worry about your inputs as L/R/Ls/Rs/C/Sub. The problem gets more complicated and removed from the actual routing issue at hand if you have to mix on the board as well.

[Motleyguy]

Okay, here's a good one.

Using a stereo mixer (we'll stick with the Mackie 1064 VLZ if you need to think of a specific one), how would you control the outputs to monitor in 5.1 surround. Bonus points if you can maintain discrete control over bass management/sub.

Assume you only need to worry about your inputs as L/R/Ls/Rs/C/Sub. The problem gets more complicated and removed from the actual routing issue at hand if you have to mix on the board as well.

so, to clarify... you're looking for a way to route the 6 signals mentioned above from input to output through a stereo monitor, with discrete control over all 6?

Anyways, if this is the case... I figure the simplest answer would be to input all 6 signals into separate channels (1 - 6 on the mixer), and output each individual signal back out of it's respective channel direct out. The channel faders will then each act as a discrete control over each signal.

As for actually mixing on that same mixer... if it has more than 6 group/buss outputs, then you'd simply route the signal desired to the specific buss designated for that channel.

[Bruce E Kinesis]

Stereo out, monitor outs and two effect sends i guess?

6 aux sends per channel with 15dB gain above Unity

You've chosen too nice a mixer :P

bass control through using one aux send as containing every channel, EQ its return as 10/0/0?

[Moseph]

I guess that last one was too easy. Although you can't simultaneously send to Aux 3-4 and 5-6, so there's a little more routing needed.

If you wanted to mix on it too (i.e., get an assortment of inputs to create a stereo mix), I'd reserve the 1st four aux sends as Ls/Rs/C/LFE and then use one of the subgroup busses as the surround L/R. Patch the outputs to the appropriate channels 1-6 and then use the direct outputs.

[Seafroggys]

Oooo, I have an idea....I have an acoustic guitar session in two weeks, and this is my mic selection:

2x RODE NT2-a (large condensers with cardoid, figure 8, omni multi-pattern)
Naiant X-T (small condensor, omni)
Cascade Fathead II (ribbon, figure 8)

What would be the best way to get a nice sound with a good balance of warmth and treble? I would like to only use 2 mics if possible.

[Aaron]

I've written out and deleted 4 posts now for this one. I'd honestly use all four. X-T on the neck, Fathead II on the sound-hole with a pop-screen [about a foot in front] and the NT2-as as overheads a la drum micing. But it depends on the room.

[Moseph]

Seems a bit open-ended. Seeing as how I've never touched a Cascade or Naiant mic, I'd probably start with a spaced pair of the NT-2's set to cardiod.

Place one around the 9th fret, pointed off-axis to the fretboard but toward the sound hole. Place the other about 6 inches away from the bridge, facing the body of the guitar on-axis. Pan one left and the other right during tracking so you can hear what each mic is doing in headphones. Adjust to taste.

[Aaron]

Depends on the music too. If it's a solo guitar you want a big sound, but in a band you [well I do] want a more neutral tone.

[Seafroggys]

Alright, there's both a solo acoustic section and several entire band. Some of it is melodic, other is just chunky chords.