A Sentence Too Soft?

[Iscariot]

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/excia_spy_imprisoned_in_oregon.html

Disgraced CIA spy Jim Nicholson, serving time for espionage at the federal prison in Sheridan, groomed his son to collect debts from Russia with colorful letters that quoted the Bible, according to court records unsealed Thursday.

"(D)o not gloat over me my enemies!" he wrote last April to Nathan J. Nicholson, quoting from the book of Micah. "For though I fall, I will rise again."

Father and son rose Thursday before a federal judge in Portland, both wearing leg shackles.

Harold James "Jim" Nicholson, a 58-year-old native Oregonian convicted in 1997 of selling classified information to the Russian Federation, is now accused of using his son to collect the debts. His son, Nathaniel James Nicholson of Eugene, a 24-year-old disabled Army veteran, is accused of traveling the globe to collect.

Father and son were indicted Tuesday for conspiracy to act as agents of a foreign government; acting as agents of a foreign government; money laundering; and conspiracy to commit money laundering, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years.

The rest of the article is on the other end of the link.

This is the kind of case that you really don't see every day. This is a rarity. And it's also a case that deserves strict scrutiny on the part of the legal system.

I'm a little bit concerned by the fact that these guys are going to serve "up to 20 years", though probably less, for what could easily be classified as treason. In fact, it is treason, plain and simple.

With all of the concern about terrorism and information leaks, why is a case like this being approached so cautiously? Why aren't they serving life in a fed-max on grounds of treason?

This thread is in part for speculation as to why this isn't being sought to it's maximum potential, and also to discuss how unsettling events like this can be.

[Refl]

They're white?

[Murdererer]

their both getting 100 years now; thats longer then most ppl live

[Aaron]

You're not in a war on your soil, why should any information be that classified that you'd destroy someones lives over it? What's in it, blue-prints of the white-house's floor-plan, where you're able to go on tours of? Or is it's a map to the location of the pentagon? I heard that's hard to find if you don't have a street directory. All he did was sell some documents.

[siva_chair]

You're not in a war on your soil, why should any information be that classified that you'd destroy someones lives over it? What's in it, blue-prints of the white-house's floor-plan, where you're able to go on tours of? Or is it's a map to the location of the pentagon? I heard that's hard to find if you don't have a street directory. All he did was sell some d0cuments.

Yeah because there is no way it could be something as trivial as security access codes, sensitive OPSEC/COMSEC info, or anything like that....

[Aaron]

Didn't some UK bloke hack your pentagon's computers on a 486 recently?

[siva_chair]

Probably. I wonder what that has to do with this thread? Oh that's right nothing.

[McP3000]

a sentence too soft sounds poetic

[siva_chair]

Yes that's Jared: Dick jokes and poetry.

[Iscariot]

I'm a brilliant man, what can I say.

[Aaron]

Probably. I wonder what that has to do with this thread? Oh that's right nothing.

It's highlighting that people will try no matter what you do to take information if they want it. Criminal sentencing is aimed to be rehabilitating, and should only be for a period longer than a life when there's no hope of rehabilitation or education.

If you're so scared of the outside world siva, lock yourself away.

[siva_chair]

It's highlighting that people will try no matter what you do to take information if they want it. Criminal sentencing is aimed to be rehabilitating, and should only be for a period longer than a life when there's no hope of rehabilitation or education.

Thanks e-Judge Ito for this profound insight into the justice system. Got any more non-sequiturs?

For one, the purpose of criminal sentencing is not only aimed at rehabilitation.

Second, it doesn't at all follow that "because people will always try to take information, they shouldn't be punished for it." While I agree that treason is an uneccessary crime (I don't believe there should be a state to commit treason against, obviously), it still shouldn't at all be surprising that a state would punish people that sell classified information to foreign countries.

It is quite clear in the US code: whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States

[siva_chair]

If you're so scared of the outside world siva, lock yourself away.

What? Who the hell said I was scared of anything? Nice try though asshat.

[Aaron]

It is quite clear in the US code: whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States

Well your constant talk that nation-states, including the United States, should not exist would fit within that definition. You're giving the United States' enemies comfort aren't you? You're constant litanies are giving the conceptual and moral support. Careful Tim McVeigh, there are cameras in the walls.

[1338 h4x0r]

What? Who the hell said I was scared of anything? Nice try though asshat.

You're scared of the contents of C:\Documents and Settings\siva_chair\Desktop\Gay Nazi Bash '08 getting out there on the Internet

[siva_chair]

Well your constant talk that nation-states, including the United States, should not exist would fit within that definition. You're giving the United States' enemies comfort aren't you? You're constant litanies are giving the conceptual and moral support. Careful Tim McVeigh, there are cameras in the walls.

Oh wow let's leave out the part where I explicitely said:

While I agree that treason is an uneccessary crime (I don't believe there should be a state to commit treason against, obviously), it still shouldn't at all be surprising that a state would punish people that sell classified information to foreign countries.

Keep trying though, your posts may someday amount to something other than a complete pantload.

[1338 h4x0r]

Don't make me post those pictures of you bending over for a Heinrich Himmler lookalike on 4chan, siva

[Aaron]

Keep trying though, your posts may someday amount to something other than a complete pantload.

Well considering I'm just chilling with some beers and trawling you, then seem to be fairly effective in their aim.

Honestly though, you need to grow up and make peace with the fact that the state exists, and protects you and enables you to do the things you love. You go on and on about how the state is not needed for the essentials in life, and then turn around and demand the right to material things that would not be possible without the state's support.

[Iscariot]

Without the existence of the state and a strong, centralized government, Siva would not be here whining about either of them. But it's easy to ignore those things when you're spoiled with personal freedoms.

[1338 h4x0r]

siva_chair has simple tastes

All he really needs in life is three squares a day, his gun collection, plenty of chances to prove his abundant manliness, and the sheer ecstasy of having a Heinrich Himmler lookalike in full SS regalia balls-deep in his well-worn rectum.

The libertarian paradise Somalia can grant him all of these things, except, perhaps, for the latter. I say we all pitch in for a plane ticket.

[siva_chair]

Well considering I'm just chilling with some beers and trawling you, then seem to be fairly effective in their aim.

Do you take pride it looking like a dumbass or something?

"Oh I'm going to get all sorts of butthurt because I made a dumb comment and someone called me out on it, and then just claim I was "trawling" them when I've been exposed for being an idiot." Good cover story.

Honestly though, you need to grow up and make peace with the fact that the state exists, and protects you and enables you to do the things you love.

False.

And how about you not worry so much about what I "need" to do.

You go on and on about how the state is not needed for the essentials in life, and then turn around and demand the right to material things that would not be possible without the state's support.

Really, where have I demanded any such thing? Oh I see you are making more stupid **** up.

[siva_chair]

Without the existence of the state and a strong, centralized government, Siva would not be here whining about either of them. But it's easy to ignore those things when you're spoiled with personal freedoms.

Yay unsubstantiated bare assertions ftw!

[Aaron]

WTF is butthurt? I don't really understand your homosexual subculture.

[1338 h4x0r]

siva said anarchy in Somalia was good; who else is in favor of getting him a one-way plane ticket for Mogadishu?

[Aaron]

Only if he gets to use his survivalist skills to get himself there on his own. No evil state-loving pilots or flight-attendants.

[1338 h4x0r]

No worries. siva_chair's penis is so huge he can use it as a flotation device. You can tell his penis is huge because he likes guns so much.

[Iscariot]

Yay unsubstantiated bare assertions ftw!

I'm unclear as to how my claims are unsubstantiated. Maybe you could clarify your grievance?

[siva_chair]

Oh man you guys' ad hominems completely destroyed all my arguments against a state. How on earth did I come to be in the presence of such supreme logic and rationality. I am in awe.

[siva_chair]

I'm unclear as to how my claims are unsubstantiated. Maybe you could clarify your grievance?

You made bare assertions without providing any sort of evidence to back them up. This isn't hard Jared you can grasp this come on.

[Aaron]

If you're so in awe, you better leave.

[1338 h4x0r]

Oh man you guys' ad hominems completely destroyed all my arguments against a state. How on earth did I come to be in the presence of such supreme logic and rationality. I am in awe.

Unless you are posting from a flaky homemade satellite connection in Mogadishu stfu

[Iscariot]

You made bare assertions without providing any sort of evidence to back them up. This isn't hard Jared you can grasp this come on.

I don't really understand why I need to provide evidence of the fact that the existence of the state and government and the freedoms they ensure and provide allow you the freedom to complain about their existence via this medium.

You seem frustrated and it seems as if you're really grasping right now.

[siva_chair]

If you're so in awe, you better leave.

Nah that's ok I think I'll sit here and be witness to your flawless exercises in logical reasoning.

Unless you are posting from a flaky homemade satellite connection in Mogadishu stfu

Yes because the government invented all technology everywhere at all times.

I don't really understand why I need to provide evidence of the fact that the existence of the state and government and the freedoms they ensure and provide allow you the freedom to complain about their existence via this medium.

You seem frustrated and it seems as if you're really grasping right now.

Because it isn't a fact, it is a bare assertion.

[Aaron]

Nah that's ok I think I'll sit here and be witness to your flawless exercises in logical reasoning.

No really, we all want you to leave.

[siva_chair]

No really, we all want you to leave.

Does it look like I really care what you want?

Honestly though, you need to grow up and make peace with the fact that I'm not going away.

[1338 h4x0r]

You seem frustrated and it seems as if you're really grasping right now.

He's not frustrated, he gets all the hardcore Nazi-fetish gay sex he wants.

Yes because the government invented all technology everywhere at all times.

I didn't say that.

I didn't even imply that.

[Iscariot]

Because it isn't a fact, it is a bare assertion.

Not as far as I'm aware.

Maybe you could provide some comparative proof that invalidates my claim that our current system allows you the freedom to not only use this medium to communicate but allows you to criticize that system without being put to death.

[siva_chair]

I didn't say that.

I didn't even imply that.

You implied it would not be possible for me to be posting on here if it weren't for the state.

Not as far as I'm aware.

Maybe you could provide some comparative proof that invalidates my claim that our current system allows you the freedom to not only use this medium to communicate but allows you to criticize that system without being put to death.

The onus of proof is on you prove your claim, not the other way around.

[Iscariot]

The onus of proof is on you prove your claim, not the other way around.

That is so painfully convenient it's ridiculous.

Why do I need to prove it? Read the constitution and research individual freedoms granted under the sovereignty of the United States of America if you want my evidence. Where is yours?

The onus is nowhere near me because anyone who has grown up being educated in the freedoms granted by our government has no quarrel with my statement.

I'm asking you to prove that our system of government and the presence of the state has no correlation with your ability to criticize the institution and access this medium of communication.

Instead of playing "spin the table" maybe you should answer my question.

That is, of course, if you actually have an answer.

[1338 h4x0r]

You implied it would not be possible for me to be posting on here if it weren't for the state.

Given that the Internet came from DARPA, that's not an entirely unreasonable assertion.

[siva_chair]

That is so painfully convenient it's ridiculous.

Yes I agree logic is convenient.

Why do I need to prove it? Read the constitution and research individual freedoms granted under the sovereignty of the United States of America if you want my evidence. Where is yours?

The existence of natural rights.

Sorry, but a piece of paper isn't what grants you freedoms. Funny thing is, I seem to recall the Bill of Rights is all about natural rights....

The onus is nowhere near me because anyone who has grown up being educated in the freedoms granted by our government has no quarrel with my statement.

The onus is on you to show that the government is what grants people freedom.

I'm asking you to prove that our system of government and the presence of the state has no correlation with your ability to criticize the institution and access this medium of communication.

It has a correlation in the fact that it is the target of my criticism. All states are, not just this one in particular.

Instead of playing "spin the table" maybe you should answer my question.

That is, of course, if you actually have an answer.

Yeah forgive me for pointing out that you were the one that made the assertion.

[siva_chair]

Given that the Internet came from DARPA, that's not an entirely unreasonable assertion.

The idea was developed by university scientists starting in the 1960s in the hopes that they could come up with a system for rapid, wide-area communication for scientific and research purposes. Leonard Kleinrock I believe was the guy's name, if I'm not mistaken.

"The government" didn't create the internet.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock

He played an important, but not exclusive role

Also, this was at a public university, UCLA

LOL

[siva_chair]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock

He played an important, but not exclusive role

Also, this was at a public university, UCLA

LOL

Lol correlation does not prove causation.

For some strange reason you are still under the assumption that the only source formal education can come from is the public sector.

[1338 h4x0r]

Whether public or private, institutions without full accreditation tend to be pieces of ****

But I guess you got your degree at the University of Phoenix

[siva_chair]

Whether public or private, institutions without full accreditation tend to be pieces of ****

But I guess you got your degree at the University of Phoenix

No sorry.

But good job bringing up a completely irrelevant point.

[1338 h4x0r]

Are you saying there are good private colleges and universities without accreditation?

Which ones, where?

[McP3000]

you people are so touchy

[siva_chair]

Are you saying there are good private colleges and universities without accreditation?

Which ones, where?

No, that isn't what I am saying at all. Where did I ever say that?

You post was completely irrelevant to what I had said, though.

[1338 h4x0r]

For some strange reason you are still under the assumption that the only source formal education can come from is the public sector.

Quoted.

[cobert]

This thread has gotten way off track.

20 years seems light, especially since I'm pretty sure this is treason.

[siva_chair]

Quoted.

And where in that post does it even mention anything about accreditation?

[1338 h4x0r]

And where in that post does it even mention anything about accreditation?

Ok granted you can get formal education outside of institutions with public oversight, but don't expect it to be either good or affordable

Same goes with student loans ... DO NOT get a student loan from Sallie Mae; I'm glad I researched that **** before I did it

[siva_chair]

Ok granted you can get formal education outside of institutions with public oversight, but don't expect it to be either good or affordable

Yeah because everyone knows that Harvard, Princeton, etc were just absolute **** schools before the government got involved with education......:rolleyes:

Same goes with student loans ... DO NOT get a student loan from Sallie Mae; I'm glad I researched that **** before I did it

You are ignoring the ways in which government drives up the price of secondary education, thereby creating a far larger need for student loans.

Also, the government isn't even the only source for loans anyway.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah because everyone knows that Harvard, Princeton, etc were just absolute **** schools before the government got involved with education......:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University#History

"Harvard is the oldest institution of higher learning in the United States (see: first university in the United States), founded 16 years after the arrival of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. Harvard College, established in 1635 by vote of the Great and General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, was named for its first benefactor, John Harvard of Charlestown, a young minister who, upon his death in 1638, left his library and half his estate to the new institution. The charter creating the corporation of Harvard College was signed by Massachusetts Governor Thomas Dudley in 1650."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Princeton_University

"The Province of New Jersey granted a charter—in the name of King George II—to the College of New Jersey on October 22, 1746 for “the Education of Youth in the Learned Languages and in the Liberal Arts and Sciences”."

It seems that you just **** up everything you say, put your foot in your mouth at every possible opportunity, and never quit. I admire your tenacity, if not your intellect

You are ignoring the ways in which government drives up the price of secondary education, thereby creating a far larger need for student loans.

lol wut

Also, the government isn't even the only source for loans anyway.

If you want to know what it's like to live in the short story The Necklace, then by all means get a private student loan.

[siva_chair]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University#History

"Harvard is the oldest institution of higher learning in the United States (see: first university in the United States), founded 16 years after the arrival of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. Harvard College, established in 1635 by vote of the Great and General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, was named for its first benefactor, John Harvard of Charlestown, a young minister who, upon his death in 1638, left his library and half his estate to the new institution. The charter creating the corporation of Harvard College was signed by Massachusetts Governor Thomas Dudley in 1650."

And from the same source:

Between 1830 and 1870 Harvard became "privatized".[15] While the Federalists controlled state government, Harvard had prospered, but the 1824 defeat of the federalist party in Massachusetts allowed the renascent Democratic-Republicans to block state funding of private universities. By 1870, the politicians and ministers that heretofore had made up the university's board of overseers had been replaced by Harvard alumni drawn from Boston's upper-class business and professional community and funded by private endowment.

During this period, Harvard experienced unparalleled growth that securely placed it financially in a league of its own among American colleges. Ronald Story notes that in 1850, Harvard's total assets were "five times that of Amherst and Williams combined, and three times that of Yale.... By 1850, it was a genuine university, 'unequaled in facilities,' as a budding scholar put it, by any other institution in America — the 'greatest university,' said another, 'in all creation'".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Princeton_University

"The Province of New Jersey granted a charter—in the name of King George II—to the College of New Jersey on October 22, 1746 for “the Education of Youth in the Learned Languages and in the Liberal Arts and Sciences”."

It seems that you just **** up everything you say, put your foot in your mouth at every possible opportunity, and never quit. I admire your tenacity, if not your intellect

That is awesome because those were essentially private institutions. They were privately funded and operated, which was the whole point. It did not require public money to run, and it did not require a government curriculum. A charter is a grant of rights and authority, and says nothing about how the curriculum is derived.

Public education didn't really take hold (that is, schools funded by public dollars and curriculums organized by the government models) until the 1840's or so. Before that, literacy rates amongst white children (the only one's that were allowed by law to go to school really) was about 97% (highest in the world at the time, I believe), so before you say it was crap consider that fact. Nice try though.

lol wut

The government drives the price of secondary education up by offering students cheap, easy credit and subsidized loans, which creates an incentive for educational facilities to raise their prices (in other words, the demand for education goes up, but the supply does not).

If you want to know what it's like to live in the short story The Necklace, then by all means get a private student loan.

Oh wow let's point to a fictional short story to prove an economic argument. Good job.

[1338 h4x0r]

While the Federalists controlled state government, Harvard had prospered, but the 1824 defeat of the federalist party in Massachusetts allowed the renascent Democratic-Republicans to block state funding of private universities.

So they prospered in either case.

Regardless, the burden of proof is on you to show that private funding is the reason Harvard did so well under that period. That's just an anecdote. Here's another anecdote: UB (where I am now), for example, started as a private medical college, went public, and has had its greatest fortune to date after entering the SUNY system.

That's incidental as far as I'm concerned. My point isn't to say that public universities are inherently superior, not at all. In fact, to say that UB's success, or any other university's success, came as a result of going public would be a very specious argument on my part, a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy and, unlike you, I am unwilling to use that kind of fallacy.

The government drives the price of secondary education up by offering students cheap, easy credit and subsidized loans, which creates an incentive for educational facilities to raise their prices (in other words, the demand for education goes up, but the supply does not).

Too bad we need those qualified professionals and stuff.

If we need the gubbermint to help kick up the supply, too, so be it; it's better than becoming a second-rate power. Look at this ****:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/databrf/sdb96330.htm

We're falling behind and you don't give a good Goddamn.

Do you really want 'communist' countries running the show?

Oh wow let's point to a fictional short story to prove an economic argument. Good job.

I'll drop the colorful analogies:

http://www.google.com/search?q=predatory+private+student+loans

[siva_chair]

So they prospered in either case.

Regardless, the burden of proof is on you to show that private funding is the reason Harvard did so well under that period. That's just an anecdote. Here's another anecdote: UB (where I am now), for example, started as a private medical college, went public, and has had its greatest fortune to date after entering the SUNY system.

It's pretty clear that after it privatized, Harvard experienced a vast increase in funds and growth. That is why it did so well, clearly. With more funds, it could expand facilities, hire more and better educators, and have more general and specialized educational resources available to it.

And what exactly do you mean by "had it's greatest fortune to date?" What does that even mean?

That's incidental as far as I'm concerned. My point isn't to say that public universities are inherently superior, not at all. In fact, to say that UB's success, or any other university's success, came as a result of going public would be a very specious argument on my part, a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy and, unlike you, I am unwilling to use that kind of fallacy.

All of this still flies directly in the face of your assertion that the state is necessary for educational institutions.

Too bad we need those qualified professionals and stuff.

And what makes you think we wouldn't have those "qualified professionals" in absence of a state? In fact, the irony of it is, by driving up the cost of higher education, the government is creating a large disincentive for those "qualified professionals" to continue in their academic pursuits.

If we need the gubbermint to help kick up the supply, too, so be it; it's better than becoming a second-rate power. Look at this ****:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/databrf/sdb96330.htm

We're falling behind and you don't give a good Goddamn.

You are failing to see that the "gubbermint" is inherently less capable of rational resource allocation for this supply than the private sector. This is an economic fact, and in the area of education is no different. It also costs more money per pupil for public education than it does for private education.

Also, we have been falling behind ever since the federal government took over the education system in the US. This is an economic reality. Sounds like you are the one that doesn't really give a goddamn, because you want more of the disease and not the cure.

Do you really want 'communist' countries running the show?

Yes because public education isn't at all a socialist policy to begin with. Let's keep the communists from running the show by continuing to adopt their policies that have been working oh so very well. :rolleyes:

I'll drop the colorful analogies:

http://www.google.com/search?q=predatory+private+student+loans

Yes because we all know that all private student loans are predatory like that.

So when are you going to deal with the fact that most student loans wouldn't even be that necessary if the government weren't there to drive up the price of tuition? Are you going to address that or are you going to keep dancing around the issue throwing red herrings into the argument?

[1338 h4x0r]

Also, we have been falling behind ever since the federal government took over the education system in the US. This is an economic reality. Sounds like you are the one that doesn't really give a goddamn, because you want more of the disease and not the cure.

...but this is not the case in Europe and East Asia, especially not at the university level.

I don't know how we manage to **** things up wrt education so much. Of course this is fodder for the 'the only good gubbermint is no gubbermint' crowd, but projecting the boneheadedness of US education policy onto every country is silly.

"During the past decade, several European countries invested heavily in research and development (R&D), including building world-class laboratories and other facilities and expanding higher education in science and engineering. These accomplishments are an important part of, and the underpinnings for, a broader effort of the European Union (EU) [1] to maintain and enhance the economic vitality of Europe. A new SRS report, Human Resources for Science and Technology: The European Region, [2](NSF 96-316) presents data on the rapid growth of academic degrees and R&D financial support that indicates that a high concentration of the world's scientific resources continues to reside in Europe."

THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB

[siva_chair]

...but this is not the case in Europe and East Asia, especially not at the university level.

So? There is no developed nation with a purely privatized education system to make a valid comparison with. We do know, however, that socialized education is NOT working in the US.

I don't know how we manage to **** things up wrt education so much. Of course this is fodder for the 'the only good gubbermint is no gubbermint' crowd, but projecting the boneheadedness of US education policy onto every country is silly.

And thinking that continuing to throw more and more stolen money at a bankrupt system is going to do any good when it hasn't worked for the past 30 (almost 40) years now is the very definition of insanity.

"During the past decade, several European countries invested heavily in research and development (R&D), including building world-class laboratories and other facilities and expanding higher education in science and engineering. These accomplishments are an important part of, and the underpinnings for, a broader effort of the European Union (EU) [1] to maintain and enhance the economic vitality of Europe. A new SRS report, Human Resources for Science and Technology: The European Region, [2](NSF 96-316) presents data on the rapid growth of academic degrees and R&D financial support that indicates that a high concentration of the world's scientific resources continues to reside in Europe."

THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB

Their public sector is doing a good job comparatively to our public sector. This says nothing about the private sector. You are comparing two public sectors and then drawing conclusions about privatization from that, which is rather silly.

And even in the instance of the private sector in our country, it is important to realize the manner in which the government spending and subsidization distorts the market. The way in which government allocates resources is fundamentally different than the way the private sector does.

[1338 h4x0r]

So? There is no developed nation with a purely privatized education system to make a valid comparison with. We do know, however, that socialized education is NOT working in the US.

That's the attitude siva ... if you can't balance a bicycle, just ****ing quit while you're ahead and never try again.

And thinking that continuing to throw more and more stolen money at a bankrupt system is going to do any good when it hasn't worked for the past 30 (almost 40) years now is the very definition of insanity.

Why is it ineffective here and not in other countries?

Their public sector is doing a good job comparatively to our public sector. This says nothing about the private sector. You are comparing two public sectors and then drawing conclusions about privatization from that, which is rather silly.

There are private universities in Europe.

[siva_chair]

That's the attitude siva ... if you can't balance a bicycle, just ****ing quit while you're ahead and never try again.

Yeah because that is exactly what I said. There is nothing intelligent about pursuing policy that is disastrous. Unlike you, I don't advocate continually putting my hand in the fire in hopes that one day it won't burn.

Why is it ineffective here and not in other countries?

It is only relatively effective in other countries. You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

There are private universities in Europe.

And there are private universities in the US, too. You emphatically are failing to grasp the point here, but this isn't surprising.

[1338 h4x0r]

You're just copying and pasting from blogs.

[siva_chair]

You're just copying and pasting from blogs.

Umm, no I'm not. I'm directly answering your posts.

Don't tell me you are avoiding the issue again.

[1338 h4x0r]

If the magic of the market fixes everything, we don't people turn to it for everything?

Like, why didn't they just make dike building a private enterprise in Sumer?

Usually if an problem-solving approach is as great as people say it is, people can be talked into using it, but so far unfettered capitalism has enjoyed staying popularity only among basement dwellers.

[siva_chair]

If the magic of the market fixes everything, we don't people turn to it for everything?

Like, why didn't they just make dike building a private enterprise in Sumer?

Usually if an problem-solving approach is as great as people say it is, people can be talked into using it, but so far unfettered capitalism has enjoyed staying popularity only among basement dwellers.

Yes because everyone knows the most logical and beneficial choice is ALWAYS taken by the state....

The reasons people don't turn to it are many.

[1338 h4x0r]

Such as

(I'll bet 'the ZOG' and 'HAARP' will be mentioned at least once)

[siva_chair]

Such as

(I'll bet 'the ZOG' and 'HAARP' will be mentioned at least once)

Such as misinformation, for one.

Also, no state tends to relinquish it's power over something very freely. There is a strong incentive for states to move towards socialist policies (namely, it expands their power).

[1338 h4x0r]

Then why isn't the world riddled with Zimbabwe clones

[siva_chair]

Then why isn't the world riddled with Zimbabwe clones

Probably because Zimbabwe has a real big problem with economic mismanagement. This in no way means that others do not suffer from mismanagement. Nice try though.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah good one, Denmark's economy sux ***

[siva_chair]

Yeah good one, Denmark's economy sux ***

In many key areas, Denmark's economy is freer than the US's.

Denmark has greater business freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and labor freedom while having comparable property rights and trade freedom scores to the U.S.

It is interesting to note that Denmark's economy has (like most other European "social democracies") still began to experience growth stagnation over the past few decades.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=denmark+tax+rates

[siva_chair]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=denmark+tax+rates

Lol did you even bother to look at what the results of that were?

Funny thing is, the first link that showed up was dealing with how their high taxes worsen labor shortages. Good job sparky.

[1338 h4x0r]

I agree they ought to reduce taxes, which is why I pointed out they are high

However they are doing well overall

[siva_chair]

I agree they ought to reduce taxes, which is why I pointed out they are high

However they are doing well overall

And their growth rate is stagnating.

[1338 h4x0r]

Growth rate everywhere is stagnating

Too bad the economy moves in cycles and stuff

[siva_chair]

Growth rate everywhere is stagnating

False.

Too bad the economy moves in cycles and stuff

Too bad it has been stagnating for the last decade or so.

[1338 h4x0r]

False.

Where is this not true

Too bad it has been stagnating for the last decade or so.

Really? Link please

[siva_chair]

Where is this not true

Asia is a good example. Strong growth rates in Hong Kong, Singapore, China, and S. Korea.

Really? Link please

http://www.indexmundi.com/denmark/gdp_real_growth_rate.html

Which is, admittedly, better off than many other European countries, but the fact is that European economies for the most part have started to stagnate (Ireland is an interesting exception, as they have shown some pretty strong growth rates the past few years). And obviously the current economic fiasco has hit everyone to some degree.

[Iskandar]

Growth certainly is strong in China, that bastion of anarcho-capitalism.

[1338 h4x0r]

Asia is a good example. Strong growth rates in Hong Kong, Singapore, China, and S. Korea.

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=asia+economic+slowdown

Do you think I don't follow news in the very region I intend to work in?

[siva_chair]

Growth certainly is strong in China, that bastion of anarcho-capitalism.

Oh wow look someone is making strawmen.

Strong growth in China certainly isn't due to expanding socialist policies in the country.

[siva_chair]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=asia+economic+slowdown

Do you think I don't follow news in the very region I intend to work in?

Do you realize economies everywhere are slowing down a bit due to the global financial crisis?

Do you realize that Asian economies will do far better than their western counterparts despite this?

[1338 h4x0r]

That remains to be seen, unfortunately

(I should add that the somewhat anarchic 'warring states' period from back way back wasn't great either but w/e)

[siva_chair]

Well Asian economies are far better positioned to recover than their Western counterparts in this whole deal. Their high savings rates put them a head above the rest, considering most Western nations are running deficits.

[1338 h4x0r]

I guess you weren't aware that high marginal propensity to save has caused numerous problems for economies such as Japan's

[siva_chair]

I guess you weren't aware that high marginal propensity to save has caused numerous problems for economies such as Japan's

I guess you weren't aware that that isn't the reason for Japan's so-called "lost decade" (which I am assuming is what you are referring to). Japan's problems stemmed from their Central bank's monetary policies more than anything.

And funny thing is, Japan is doing really well compared to everyone else in this whole fiasco. Their banks have come out of this relatively untouched.

[1338 h4x0r]

I heard they're an anarcho-capitalist state too

[Aaron]

Japan has incredibly low interest-rates which means that there's been lower credit-based lending and less of an impact on their domestic spending by global factors, i.e. their MPC hasn't been effected overly. Plus obvious social issues that are in play as well.

[1338 h4x0r]

Didn't the central bank system in Japan slash interest rates in order to raise MPC?

Also, their income tax rates are borderline Scandinavian levels. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing in their case, I have no idea why siva_chair insists on pointing to them as some kind of predecessor to an anarcho-capitalist state: they're not.

[Aaron]

It's the standard mechanism for MPC change, yeah, But from what Nikki [my japanese flatmate, daughter of a very rich engineer/property investor] has indicated to me, they've had low interest rates for the past decade or so.

[Aaron]

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/excia_spy_imprisoned_in_oregon.html



The rest of the article is on the other end of the link.

This is the kind of case that you really don't see every day. This is a rarity. And it's also a case that deserves strict scrutiny on the part of the legal system.

I'm a little bit concerned by the fact that these guys are going to serve "up to 20 years", though probably less, for what could easily be classified as treason. In fact, it is treason, plain and simple.

With all of the concern about terrorism and information leaks, why is a case like this being approached so cautiously? Why aren't they serving life in a fed-max on grounds of treason?

This thread is in part for speculation as to why this isn't being sought to it's maximum potential, and also to discuss how unsettling events like this can be.

20 years is the same as Albert Speer's sentence. Do you think that this man did worse than Speer?

[IbanezArtist]

I have an idea, let's all move to Norway and enjoy a relatively sound economy while living at a higher standard than Americans?

[1338 h4x0r]

Fortsett!

[siva_chair]

Also, their income tax rates are borderline Scandinavian levels. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing in their case, I have no idea why siva_chair insists on pointing to them as some kind of predecessor to an anarcho-capitalist state: they're not.

I have no idea why you insist on making things up. I never said they were some "predecessor to an anarcho-capitalist state."

[1338 h4x0r]

Well you seem to believe that if an economy does well, it's due to unfettered capitalism.

But, there again, it's kind of hard to tell what you believe, because when a place like Japan or the EU or China is doing well, where they have a lot of economic regulations in one way or another, they're only doing 'comparatively' well or some ****.

The point being that when your argument for totally unrestricted free markets is based on a tautology, it's hard to tell what you believe exactly.

Oh and I like making things up because it's funny.

(siva_chair sucks off bottom-of-the-barrel male prostitutes, pass it on)

[siva_chair]

Well you seem to believe that if an economy does well, it's due to unfettered capitalism.

Well considering some of the fastest and healthiest growing economies in the world are ones that are either in the process of deregulation or are already some of the freest, I'd say it isn't that hard to believe.

But, there again, it's kind of hard to tell what you believe, because when a place like Japan or the EU or China is doing well, where they have a lot of economic regulations in one way or another, they're only doing 'comparatively' well or some ****.

The EU isn't doing well, China has been deregulating and freeing up their economy and it shows, and Japan has in large part recovered from their "lost decade" by a process of deregulation (a large deal due to their monetary freedom) and the freeing up of various industries by former PM Junichiro Koizumi.

The point being that when your argument for totally unrestricted free markets is based on a tautology, it's hard to tell what you believe exactly.

Then it probably wouldn't be wise to just assume you can tell and say stupid ****, as it just makes you look like a fool.

[IbanezArtist]

hey siva, stfu

[1338 h4x0r]

The EU isn't doing well

They're doing ok

China has been deregulating and freeing up their economy and it shows

It's not hard to improve on a total command state. Nobody here is advocating a total command state. Nobody here thinks a total command state is a good idea. You just knocked down a strawman, congrats.

Also, as much as I like China, you have to understand they fudge figures a lot over there. For starters, the government only posts yearly rather than quarterly growth, which is really kind of dishonest.


Then it probably wouldn't be wise to just assume you can tell and say stupid ****, as it just makes you look like a fool.

"siva_chair once tried to eat a 72 oz steak in an hour, but filled up on a house salad then threw up."

[siva_chair]

I'm so glad I can provoke such rational and thought inspiring responses.

[IbanezArtist]

siva, noone likes you and your retarded crap, gtfo my forums

you speak of rationality, yet there is none in your arguments

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm so glad I can provoke such rational and thought inspiring responses.

siva_chair always wears knee pads. When asked if they were for stunt purposes, he replied: "Sure".

[IbanezArtist]

There is no 'ctrl' button on siva_chair's computer. siva_chair is always in control.

[siva_chair]

They're doing ok

Yeah I guess if you consider many of it's members experience stagnating growth rates and running substantial deficits to be ok...

It's not hard to improve on a total command state. Nobody here is advocating a total command state. Nobody here thinks a total command state is a good idea. You just knocked down a strawman, congrats.

You mean the strawman that you created by making assertions of anarcho-capitalism and the like first?

Also, as much as I like China, you have to understand they fudge figures a lot over there. For starters, the government only posts yearly rather than quarterly growth, which is really kind of dishonest.

It is fairly clear that China is experiencing substantial growth, fudging of figures or not. This is not due to socialization, it is due to the freeing of the economy.

[siva_chair]

siva, noone likes you and your retarded crap, gtfo my forums

you speak of rationality, yet there is none in your arguments

Oh wow it's captain bare assertions to the rescue here.

[IbanezArtist]

siva_chair is still irrational, unlogical, and completely nonsensical.

Also likely insecure about his homosexuality.

[1338 h4x0r]

It is fairly clear that China is experiencing substantial growth, fudging of figures or not. This is not due to socialization, it is due to the freeing of the economy.

Nobody disagrees. I hope you realize this

Also:

siva_chair once got a splinter and was rushed immediately to the ER, screaming “I’m too young to die!” the whole way.

[IbanezArtist]

siva_chair goes to donate blood, he turns down the needle and instead requests a gun and a bucket

[1338 h4x0r]

siva_chair goes to donate blood, he turns down the needle and instead requests a gun and a bucket

Err, that's not quite the idea. More like this:

When siva_chair sings karaoke, it's always Jewel. And you can bet your *** that you won't see him looking at the monitor for the words.

[IbanezArtist]

no man, siva_chair is a badass, dont u no?

[Aaron]

siva_chair cries when he goes to the toilet. It's just too painful to let go of all his ideas.

[jaredong]

jeeze a loo

i do disagree with siva's free market/capitalist/anti government position sometimes.

However, i can see where he's coming from. He's not being like "the sun revoles around the earth"; lots of other smart people propose his position as well. Different people have different assumptions and conclusions. Thats a-okay.

What i dont agree with is just being mean to people. I think everyone should just calm down some.

[Iskandar]

Nobody disagrees. I hope you realize thisChina went from a command economy to a mixed economy so anarcho-capitalism must be the best.

Wait what.
However, i can see where he's coming from. He's not being like "the sun revoles around the earth"; lots of other smart people propose his position as well.They don't take it to nearly the same extremes though.

Oh and siva_chair drove on a public road once. He regrets it every day of his life.

[1338 h4x0r]

However, i can see where he's coming from. He's not being like "the sun revoles around the earth"; lots of other smart people propose his position as well.

There's a trend in the neuroscience community (it will probably go away eventually) to believe we are machines with no free will. Presumably the people who believe that are smart.

Many smart people are even creationists or transhumanists.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't ridicule their beliefs in these cases.

What i dont agree with is just being mean to people. I think everyone should just calm down some.

siva_chair is a hairy-chested libertarian with more cajones than all of us put together. He cannot be insulted.

Oh and siva_chair drove on a public road once. He regrets it every day of his life.

Owned

[siva_chair]

China went from a command economy to a mixed economy so anarcho-capitalism must be the best.

Wait what.

Yeah now would be the part where you show that I actually used that reasoning.

Wait what? You can't? Oh that's just too bad.

I'm so glad we have such a great moderator these days that actually does his job. :rolleyes:

[1338 h4x0r]

siva_chair drives an ice cream truck to ballet practice.