Educational Budget Cuts

[Permanent Solution]

Not sure how many people here are at public universities in the US currently, but if you are, you're probably going to be dealing with budget cuts now or in the near future. At my school, one immediate effect is that all staff are expected to take 3 weeks of unpaid leave before June.

To make up the loss in state funding, the university would have to raise tuition for in state students 100%.

The dilemma, for me, is that yeah, it sucks (especially as an employee of the university), but maybe some good will come of this too. See, if education becomes unreasonably expensive, is it not possible that maybe universities will transform back from blatant money grubbing, degree giving institutions back to actual places of intellectual challenge and development?

As much as I believe the populous should be as educated as possible, the college degree has become so devalued lately (both monetarily and intellectually) that I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad thing that college becomes prohibitively expensive again.

Thoughts?

[Charlie Daniels]

I agree with the degree being too easy and widely obtained. It shits me to see how many people go and get a degree with no intention of having a career in that field and then just wind up working in the grocery store. At least in Australia where the government pays about 75% of the total degree cost plus pays a generous stipend to students studying.

[Charlie Daniels]

I also wouldn't mind paying twice as much for the degree if it meant that less people ended up studying what I'm studying.

[siva_chair]

Abolish public education.

[Iscariot]

Anyone who finds right in the idea of barring the financially impaired from higher education doesn't deserve that education themselves.

No one should ever have to pay for knowledge. If we're expected to progress as a society and carry on knowledge to future generations in order to close the education gap and bring everyone up to an even playing field, then why is there a price tag on information?

I believe in free education for everyone who wants it. When a paycheck becomes more important than spreading education, then the educators have failed.

[siva_chair]

No one has the "right" to force others to subsidize the education of another.

[Iscariot]

No one has the right to subsidize anything. If we could abandon the concept of currency and reinstate the bartering system I would be perfectly content.

[siva_chair]

No one has the right to subsidize anything. If we could abandon the concept of currency and reinstate the bartering system I would be perfectly content.

And your universal education wouldn't even become close to a possible reality.

You seem to be contradicting yourself by stating that no one has the right to subsidize anything, but then you claim everyone should have a free education. How is this possible?

[Iscariot]

The possibility of its manifestation has no bearing on the justice of the idea.

[Iskandar]

Oh, god. You have the ability to turn anything into an ideological flamefest.

[Iscariot]

You seem to be contradicting yourself by stating that no one has the right to subsidize anything, but then you claim everyone should have a free education. How is this possible?

How is it contradicting to propose education free of subsidization? Subsidization is the placement of monetary value on or buying out of a commodity. Advocating a lack of financial value on education and promoting the free trade of information is not subsidization. Stop trying to pick a fight.

[Shell]

I kinda agree with Vince because a lot of people here who go to school qualify for more financial aid than it costs for them to actually go to school, so they get a check back at the end of the semester for the extra amount. Then they also don't give a **** about attendance because they didn't pay for it, and as long as they can pull off a D, that's considered passing.

But there is a lot more at play than simply the price of school.

[Already_Taken]

considering this is a democracy, you'd think we'd want our general populations (you know, the electorate) to be educated.

wow shell payed to go to college, sign me up (????)

[siva_chair]

How is it contradicting to propose education free of subsidization? Subsidization is the placement of monetary value on or buying out of a commodity. Advocating a lack of financial value on education and promoting the free trade of information is not subsidization. Stop trying to pick a fight.

Who is going to provide education in this free education system? Is it going to be composed of all volunteers or something?

[Iscariot]

I kinda agree with Vince because a lot of people here who go to school qualify for more financial aid than it costs for them to actually go to school, so they get a check back at the end of the semester for the extra amount. Then they also don't give a **** about attendance because they didn't pay for it, and as long as they can pull off a D, that's considered passing.

But there is a lot more at play than simply the price of school.

Raising the cost of education to an exclusionary level won't increase student performance. Just because someone can afford to attend a university doesn't mean they're going to perform well. If anything, those who can meet the cost requirements without financial aide will be lazier because they're not accustomed to working for what they receive.

Making college too expensive for the lower class will just propagate the regularity of lazy rich kids who are used to getting a free ride and increase the lower class disdain for the rest of society.

It's the lower class that works harder to succeed in college and in life in general, because they grew up with nothing and know that they have to really, really try to get somewhere in life.

[Iscariot]

Who is going to provide education in this free education system? Is it going to be composed of all volunteers or something?

Let me propose this question.. why does an educator become an educator?

It's a simple and redundant answer - to educate.

They should not require an inordinate amount of funding to do what they set out to accomplish in the first place.

So yes, education would be bolstered in part by a volunteer group of educators. However, everyone needs to eat and pay their bills, so while the bulk of the salary paid to these over expectant teachers would be pulled back into the system, they would still be compensated through state/federal means.

It would be phenomenally cheaper to pay educators cost of living and let them work on the side for an extra cushion than to pay them an indulgent sum to spread knowledge to those who desire it.

Information is infinitely more important than salary.

[siva_chair]

Let me propose this question.. why does an educator become an educator?

It's a simple and redundant answer - to educate.

They should not require an inordinate amount of funding to do what they set out to accomplish in the first place.

So yes, education would be bolstered in part by a volunteer group of educators. However, everyone needs to eat and pay their bills, so while the bulk of the salary paid to these over expectant teachers would be pulled back into the system, they would still be compensated through state/federal means.

So you are advocating subsidization.

It would be phenomenally cheaper to pay educators cost of living and let them work on the side for an extra cushion than to pay them an indulgent sum to spread knowledge to those who desire it.

Information is infinitely more important than salary.

You realize you are basically a communist right Jared?

[Iscariot]

So you are advocating subsidization.

I'm not advocating subsidization of education, no. I'm advocating education free of cost for the student, and government compensation for cost of living for the educator.

Students would not pay for college, so it would not be a subsidized commodity. But teachers would be compensated through state/federal means so they weren't living on the streets.

You realize you are basically a communist right Jared?

I've come to this conclusion a few times, yes.

[Iskandar]

What's with people calling people commies? We haven't had any commies around here since Danish and coheneran left. Unless you think public education is communism in which case I feel slightly sorry for you.

[Iscariot]

Anyone who is left of centrist is a commie, didn't you know that?

:p

[mattspurplepen]

yeah, the situation is basically a bummer no matter what. Less fortunate people who yearn to learn sometimes never get the chance and may have less of a chance with increased tuition. There should be a compromise somehow so that scholarships don't run out.
I would agree with you iscariot, but i think universal healthcare is a bit more pressing.. college could be made more affordable for poorer people though.
... comparable to Socialism maybe not communism.

[siva_chair]

I'm not advocating subsidization of education, no. I'm advocating education free of cost for the student, and government compensation for cost of living for the educator.

Students would not pay for college, so it would not be a subsidized commodity. But teachers would be compensated through state/federal means so they weren't living on the streets.

Lol that is subsidization Jared. You are taking money from one group of people to subsidize others.


I've come to this conclusion a few times, yes.

Well as long as you have no cognitive dissonance over it.

What's with people calling people commies? We haven't had any commies around here since Danish and coheneran left. Unless you think public education is communism in which case I feel slightly sorry for you.

Hmm let's see: abolish money and massive subsidizations....all in the name of the benefit of "society."

Sounds an awfully lot like communism to me.

Public education is socialism. I feel sorry for you that you need to try and obfuscate that fact.

[siva_chair]

Anyone who is left of centrist is a commie, didn't you know that?

:p

Just any collectivist who advocates the redistribution of wealth for some egalitarian goal.

[Iskandar]

Anyone who is left of centrist is a commie, didn't you know that?

:pIn America I guess so. If Barack Obama can be called one when he's the most typical liberal Democrat ever. In fact he's a little conservative-leaning compared to some of his fellow party members (comrades?).

[Iscariot]

Lol that is subsidization Jared. You are taking money from one group of people to subsidize others.

The federal and state governments are not financially handicapped groups. What I'm doing is balancing the scales. If you want to call it subsidization then that's your own misinterpretation. It's actually a dramatic decrease in subsidization for the benefit and progression of an educated society.

Well as long as you have no cognitive dissonance over it.

Well it would be silly to be ashamed of advocating the right thing.

[siva_chair]

The federal and state governments are not financially handicapped groups. What I'm doing is balancing the scales. If you want to call it subsidization then that's your own misinterpretation. It's actually a dramatic decrease in subsidization for the benefit and progression of an educated society.

No actually it isn't my misinterpretation, it is exactly what the word means in every sense.

sub·si·dize (sbs-dz)
tr.v. sub·si·dized, sub·si·diz·ing, sub·si·diz·es
1. To assist or support with a subsidy.
2. To secure the assistance of by granting a subsidy.

Well it would be silly to be ashamed of advocating the right thing.

It's just too bad that it's not the right thing.

[Iscariot]

No actually it isn't my misinterpretation, it is exactly what the word means in every sense.

sub·si·dize (sbs-dz)
tr.v. sub·si·dized, sub·si·diz·ing, sub·si·diz·es
1. To assist or support with a subsidy.
2. To secure the assistance of by granting a subsidy.

:facepalm:

I've already repeated SEVERAL times that the education would be supported by federal funding, free of student fees and education costs. The educators would be granted cost of living but they would not draw that pay from the students or by means of federal grants and scholarships. It would be the same as granting a pay scale balance to someone who can't afford to support themselves on their salary to ensure that they have an equal chance to thrive.

It's just too bad that it's not the right thing.

I'm coming to realize that nothing regarding the equal advancement of an entire society is considered the right thing with you. You're an extremely classist individual.

[Iskandar]

No you're right abolishing the state would be the right thing to do.

[siva_chair]

:facepalm:

I've already repeated SEVERAL times that the education would be supported by federal funding, free of student fees and education costs. The educators would be granted cost of living but they would not draw that pay from the students or by means of federal grants and scholarships. It would be the same as granting a pay scale balance to someone who can't afford to support themselves on their salary to ensure that they have an equal chance to thrive.

:sigh:

How can you not see that this is an obvious subsidy. That is what all instances of "being supported by federal funding" is. I know you are smart enough to see this.

I'm coming to realize that nothing regarding the equal advancement of an entire society is considered the right thing with you. You're an extremely classist individual.

Classist? That is pretty funny, considering I have consistently advocated the abolishment of the actual ruling class. It is those that want to force egalitarianism upon everyone that are the classists, as they want to establish those that rule and enforce and those that are ruled and obey.

[JohnXDoe]

i went to public schools all my life and came out a productive, law abiding citizen. the country invested in me and now i invest in the education of others, and by turn my country

sounds like a pretty good deal to me

that is all

[Charlie Daniels]

Yeah Jared the federal govt get their money through taxes that everyone pays, the government footing the bill is the commonest type of subsidy. :-S

[mph4ever]

i went to public schools all my life and came out a productive, law abiding citizen. the country invested in me and now i invest in the education of others, and by turn my country

sounds like a pretty good deal to me

that is all


a contented citizen. is there anything you would like to do that you are prevented from or do you feel state provides for your every wish, within reason of course.

social security hookers are not what i mean!

[beso negro]

The educators would be granted cost of living but they would not draw that pay from the students or by means of federal grants and scholarships.

how much money would they be making? good luck getting any decent engineering, math, or science teachers if you are only paying them less than 80k.

[jaredong]

hmmm in my university (i guess in lots of others too im guessing) there is a campaign trying to eliminate tuition fees and make education free. I disagree with it slightly though.

I agree that education should be accessible for anyone who really wants it. I disagree that tuition fees should be eliminated.

First, if tuition was eliminated, its not like the costs of running university would disappear. Who is going to pay for it? Sooner or later, you're going to have to bear some costs of it.

I agree, to some extent that there are people who i see go to university and just bum around not really caring what they're studying. But that is not because education is subsidized. Its because their parents are rich and paying for them.

If your parents are rich, even after you leave university you've got more options in finding a job, a place to stay, networking. If you're going off student loans/grants, you're still at square one after university.

Anyway, what i propose is not elimination of student fees. Maybe Im a terrible person but if education was free, I dont think really rich people who can afford to go to university should have their tuition eliminated.

Hence, I think its prolly better to keep tuition fees for those who can pay for it. Take that money, and offer it as scholarships for really bright less well off undergraduates, or as loans to arent that smart.

In short, yes, education should be accessible to all. But the elimination of tuition fees would not result in costs not being paid. Hence, keep tuition for those who can afford it to offer loans to those who need the extra help. Everyone still pays for tuition, but more people have access to it.

What do you think? I have really really fleshed this idea out totally yet.

[Permanent Solution]

Anyone who finds right in the idea of barring the financially impaired from higher education doesn't deserve that education themselves.

No one should ever have to pay for knowledge. If we're expected to progress as a society and carry on knowledge to future generations in order to close the education gap and bring everyone up to an even playing field, then why is there a price tag on information?

Schooling is only one form of education, and realistically becoming a less important one as far as social education goes. I would just as soon shift public funding to more libraries and such, because it is quite easy to self-educate, especially with the existence of the internet. There are, of course, some subjects that require more than self-education to really come to terms with, and that would be where universities come in.

I believe in free education for everyone who wants it. When a paycheck becomes more important than spreading education, then the educators have failed.
Um that happened a long time ago sorry you weren't informed.


Also, for those discussing the inability of the lower classes to attend university, I don't see that as happening at all. If universities are generally prohibitively expensive, then most people will be discouraged from attending. But those genuinely interested and capable would be motivated despite the costs. Those people would then have access to the many scholarship programs that still exist, and like Ivy-caliber universities currently, the lower class could attend for free if they qualified via scholarships. The difference would be the higher standard so that we did not end up paying thousands of students to attend school who the entire time are skirting by on a 3.0 or lower.

[ATC]

There's more problems with education than simply funding. Iscariot's notion that people should work for cheap is something I'm not comfortable with, not because it's socialist (why is that a bad word anyway? the United States is socialist to begin with, always has been..the idea of a public good that the government subsidizes implies that) but because it'll make education untenable. You want intelligent AND passionate educators not merely the passionate ones. I agree with his position that making education untenable for the lower classes is a terrible terrible idea. Coasters aren't restricted to rich or poor. Most of the kids at university don't want to be educated though. That said, educators are content to simply go with the status quo and do nothing to help undo the reasons kids don't want to be educated. Exactly two of the kids in my class this semester had read two or more books in the last year. Three claimed to not like reading. Ten out of sixteen had no idea how to think critically or to analyze a text. They could summarize like mother****ers though. It made me question whether their previous class had even prepared them for mine. Or if mine last semester had prepared them for the higher level course this semester. Still, I'm determined to get them to care. I'm having some luck. Still, the system I have to work within makes me think that I will maybe not be able to drive them so hard long-term. In one of my grad teaching classes, I came across a statistic from 2003 that said less than half of college graduates were fully literate. That says something about the educational system.

The basic goals of liberal education are not fulfilled within the North American system because it isn't designed to. Throwing money at them isn't the solution but neither is abolishing them. Also, private and public universities cannot be separated. They are geared towards essentially the same students and are represented in government by the same people and have a common agenda. They simply have to be re-oriented to provide what they are intended to provide. Universities are supremely resistant to change but I hope that the budget cuts force them to evaluate the thrust of their education.

[ATC]

Schooling is only one form of education, and realistically becoming a less important one as far as social education goes. I would just as soon shift public funding to more libraries and such, because it is quite easy to self-educate, especially with the existence of the internet. There are, of course, some subjects that require more than self-education to really come to terms with, and that would be where universities come in.

Libraries ought to be funded. The internet needs to be taken greater advantage of. The idea that self-education is tenable isn't substantiated though. You're hardly going to be able to offer yourself a higher level course in many things by compiling your own reading lists (I presume you mean the internet is used to purchase also and not just as the only repository for information), assess yourself and objectively figure out how much of your own intended learning outcomes you've managed to achieve. Also, to be able to do this sort of thing, you'll need to first be able to critically think, sift information, come up with specific learning objectives/philosophy/methods beforehand (ie. before you've even familiarized yourself with the subject) and that's difficult. Undergraduates aren't familiar with how to research. They barely learn that in their last year of undergrad. They can barely think for themselves and you expect them to design a course for themselves? The kids I teach had to have the meaning of the word assumption and the concept of logical progression explained to them. You'd think high school graduates would know. And this isn't just freshmen undergrads but something you find even in higher level courses. There's other holistic learning approaches that sidestep the university system but just the internet is not one of them.



Also, for those discussing the inability of the lower classes to attend university, I don't see that as happening at all. If universities are generally prohibitively expensive, then most people will be discouraged from attending. But those genuinely interested and capable would be motivated despite the costs. Those people would then have access to the many scholarship programs that still exist, and like Ivy-caliber universities currently, the lower class could attend for free if they qualified via scholarships. The difference would be the higher standard so that we did not end up paying thousands of students to attend school who the entire time are skirting by on a 3.0 or lower.

Ideally. However, the societal good/individual good of attending a university and having gone through its rigors/achieved its learning objectives and gotten the right tools cannot be understated. Everyone who want it ought to be given a chance. However, indiscriminately letting people in until they have the prerequisite skills isn't a solution. Either fix high schools or provide a separate foundation course for skills you need to get into university because a lot of those coasters aren't gaining much/enough.

[siva_chair]

Schooling is only one form of education, and realistically becoming a less important one as far as social education goes. I would just as soon shift public funding to more libraries and such, because it is quite easy to self-educate, especially with the existence of the internet. There are, of course, some subjects that require more than self-education to really come to terms with, and that would be where universities come in.

Um that happened a long time ago sorry you weren't informed.


Also, for those discussing the inability of the lower classes to attend university, I don't see that as happening at all. If universities are generally prohibitively expensive, then most people will be discouraged from attending. But those genuinely interested and capable would be motivated despite the costs. Those people would then have access to the many scholarship programs that still exist, and like Ivy-caliber universities currently, the lower class could attend for free if they qualified via scholarships. The difference would be the higher standard so that we did not end up paying thousands of students to attend school who the entire time are skirting by on a 3.0 or lower.

I pretty much agree with this 100%. Especially the first part.

Iscariot's notion that people should work for cheap is something I'm not comfortable with, not because it's socialist (why is that a bad word anyway? the United States is socialist to begin with, always has been..the idea of a public good that the government subsidizes implies that) but because it'll make education untenable.

Thank god someone else sees this.

[beso negro]

I came across a statistic from 2003 that said less than half of college graduates were fully literate. That says something about the educational system.

what do you mean by fully literate

[Mr. Ron]

siva's solution to everything: Abolish it


lol

[spitfirejunky]

Not sure how many people here are at public universities in the US currently, but if you are, you're probably going to be dealing with budget cuts now or in the near future. At my school, one immediate effect is that all staff are expected to take 3 weeks of unpaid leave before June.

To make up the loss in state funding, the university would have to raise tuition for in state students 100%.

The dilemma, for me, is that yeah, it sucks (especially as an employee of the university), but maybe some good will come of this too. See, if education becomes unreasonably expensive, is it not possible that maybe universities will transform back from blatant money grubbing, degree giving institutions back to actual places of intellectual challenge and development?

As much as I believe the populous should be as educated as possible, the college degree has become so devalued lately (both monetarily and intellectually) that I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad thing that college becomes prohibitively expensive again.

Thoughts?

Subsidizing education has little to do with academic standards. See every other developed nation.

[siva_chair]

siva's solution to everything: Abolish it

lol

Yeah and?

[spitfirejunky]

^ At this point in the US's history it would solve a lot of problems.

[Mr. Ron]

well first we have to get rid of no child left behind. That rotting carcass of a programs is doing its part in dragging a lot of kids down the tubes.

[siva_chair]

well first we have to get rid of no child left behind. That rotting carcass of a programs is doing its part in dragging a lot of kids down the tubes.

That is egalitarianism for you.

[ATC]

what do you mean by fully literate

I believe NAAL defines literacy as prose, document and quantitative. There's different results for each of those based on educational levels. Their 10 year study indicates that the number of individuals proficient (as opposed to below basic, basic and intermediate) across all educational levels has reduced.

[Iskandar]

siva's solution to everything: Abolish it


lolAbolish education!

This self-education stuff will almost make sense when employers value a bunch of books you got from the library as much as a degree. I am all for reading and learning but seriously, it's no substitute for formal education.

[siva_chair]

Abolish education!

No, abolish government indoctrination (public education).

This self-education stuff will almost make sense when employers value a bunch of books you got from the library as much as a degree. I am all for reading and learning but seriously, it's no substitute for formal education.

Most formal education is worthless and retarded from a career perspective anyway.

[Iskandar]

No, abolish government indoctrination (public education).:lol::lol:

[ATC]

Most formal education is worthless and retarded from a career perspective anyway.
:lol: :lol:

[Iskandar]

That brought to mind a hilarious image of American schoolchildren watching anticommunist propaganda on the projector screen. Straight out of The Simpsons.

"The moon belongs to America!"

[siva_chair]

That brought to mind a hilarious image of American schoolchildren watching anticommunist propaganda on the projector screen. Straight out of The Simpsons.

"The moon belongs to America!"

If only it were that blatant. Then it would have had entertainment value.

[Iskandar]

If you feel the government is indoctrinating your children you're free to take them to a remote Montana cabin where you can homeschool them in the truth about 9/11, the Holocaust and the Mexicans.

[siva_chair]

If you feel the government is indoctrinating your children you're free to take them to a remote Montana cabin where you can homeschool them in the truth about 9/11, the Holocaust and the Mexicans.

That is looking more and more appealing every day.

"9/11 was an event where our very own government new about this threat and stood there with their thumbs in their asses, then tried to use it as a justification to send lots of young men and women off to die, all for the expansion of it's power and influence. This is not a unique thing in the history of states."

"The Holocaust is probably one of the best examples of the immorality of the state."

"Mexicans are simply taking back the land that the white people drove them off of 100 or so years ago."

:wave:

[Iskandar]

You'll be following in a fine tradition of lunatics and survivalists.

[siva_chair]

You'll be following in a fine tradition of lunatics and survivalists.

Oh well.

I consider the latter a title of honor, tbh.

[Iskandar]

Wait you pretty much are a survivalist. I forgot.

[siva_chair]

Wait you pretty much are a survivalist. I forgot.

Yes, I know how to take care of myself.

[Iskandar]

Prepared for when the revolution comes.

[siva_chair]

Prepared for when the revolution comes.

No, just prepared.

I've never cared for the idea of being helpless in any situation. I camp, hike, hunt, and fish a lot, so it isn't as though survival skills are not potentially useful to me.

[Iskandar]

That's not really what a survivalist means though. It's more like "got my cabin prepared when ZOG comes around to implant mind control chips in my brain."

[siva_chair]

That's not really what a survivalist means though. It's more like "got my cabin prepared when ZOG comes around to implant mind control chips in my brain."

Umm no a survivalist is simply someone who is prepared and knows how the hell to survive in the event of a disruption like a disaster.

I learned the skills because I tend to take a lot of outdoor trips and grew up around vast amounts of wilderness, not out of some fear of the collapse of society (though if that were to happen I feel pretty confident in my ability to survive pretty much indefinitely).

[Iskandar]

That's called being prepared. Survivalism is what fringe nutjobs do. That's how I've always heard the term used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalist

[gregulus]

It's the lower class that works harder to succeed in college and in life in general, because they grew up with nothing and know that they have to really, really try to get somewhere in life.
I don't know if this is really true. I've seen people from the lower class go to college and not give a damn just like I've seen rich kids go to college and not give a damn. Likewise, I've seen people from both the upper and lower classes go to college and bust their *** to make all A's to better their chances in getting into a top-notch graduate school.

[Permanent Solution]

Libraries ought to be funded. The internet needs to be taken greater advantage of. The idea that self-education is tenable isn't substantiated though. You're hardly going to be able to offer yourself a higher level course in many things by compiling your own reading lists (I presume you mean the internet is used to purchase also and not just as the only repository for information), assess yourself and objectively figure out how much of your own intended learning outcomes you've managed to achieve. Also, to be able to do this sort of thing, you'll need to first be able to critically think, sift information, come up with specific learning objectives/philosophy/methods beforehand (ie. before you've even familiarized yourself with the subject) and that's difficult. Undergraduates aren't familiar with how to research. They barely learn that in their last year of undergrad. They can barely think for themselves and you expect them to design a course for themselves? The kids I teach had to have the meaning of the word assumption and the concept of logical progression explained to them. You'd think high school graduates would know. And this isn't just freshmen undergrads but something you find even in higher level courses. There's other holistic learning approaches that sidestep the university system but just the internet is not one of them.By the internet I mean everything from finding good books and purchasing them up to and including online lectures (more and more of which are being offered free). As to the latter points, that is an issue that exists not with the universities, but rather with the high schools. Universities should not be responsible for teaching students critical thinking and research. People who do not have those skills should not even be in universities (that they are is, in my opinion, a tremendous problem). I'm also quite certain that if universities required those skills as prerequisites to admission, those who wished to attend would learn them.
Ideally. However, the societal good/individual good of attending a university and having gone through its rigors/achieved its learning objectives and gotten the right tools cannot be understated. Everyone who want it ought to be given a chance. However, indiscriminately letting people in until they have the prerequisite skills isn't a solution. Either fix high schools or provide a separate foundation course for skills you need to get into university because a lot of those coasters aren't gaining much/enough.
I disagree completely. University education for the general populous is completely disproportionate in terms of cost/benefit. If people actively pursued learning in social environments and on their own, the education would surpass the usefulness of university education. If educated discussion were a normal part of social interaction, it would be far more educational than spending four years in a university whilst caring little for actually learning anything there.

[Mr. Ron]

That's called being prepared. Survivalism is what fringe nutjobs do. That's how I've always heard the term used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalist
actually, learning survival techniques is pretty fun. Ever since the boy scouts I've been interested in wilderness survival.

Although there are some that take it a bit far and start storing a years worth of non-perishables in their basement. :/

[Permanent Solution]

Storing non-perishables isn't wilderness survival anyways. Wilderness survival would mean, you know, living off the wild...not canned man-made food.

[1338 h4x0r]

Abolish public education.

If you want everyone in the US to be sold as pets to the upper middle-class of developing countries the world over, abolishing public education is a dandy idea.

By the internet I mean everything from finding good books and purchasing them up to and including online lectures (more and more of which are being offered free).

Good point, but it's hard to imagine someone understanding a Springer-Verlag type book without someone else's assistance. I read math texts on my own all the time, but generally only undergraduate material. (Currently working on Quantitative Management by Guisseppi Forgionne since I switched my major to business ... it is most heilworthy.)

[siva_chair]

That's called being prepared. Survivalism is what fringe nutjobs do. That's how I've always heard the term used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalist

Yes I know some people who do that are nutters and call themselves survivalists.

I don't store huge amounts of food or anything of the sort. I don't really need to, as I know enough about foraging and hunting.

actually, learning survival techniques is pretty fun. Ever since the boy scouts I've been interested in wilderness survival.

Although there are some that take it a bit far and start storing a years worth of non-perishables in their basement. :/

It is very fun. I don't take hardly anything when I go camping. Very liberating.

If you want everyone in the US to be sold as pets to the upper middle-class of developing countries the world over, abolishing public education is a dandy idea.

Yes because we've always had public education....:rolleyes:

[1338 h4x0r]

Yes because we've always had public education....:rolleyes:

We've also 'always had':


Massive urban population centers
Near-universal literacy
Wireless Internet
Global trade and competition
...
Indoor plumbing


If libertarians had their way, we'd all sit around our manly campfires, cleaning our Kentucky rifles and eating charred bison with our crooked yellow teeth, while our counterparts in Europe and Asia enjoyed having actual ... infrastructures! and quietly planned to turn the US into a profitable wildlife preserve.

But I guess I forgot that the most progressive libertarians believe we are still living somewhere in the 18th century, and the least progressive, somewhere in the 10th.

I'm not quite sure where you fit in yet. Could you tell me please?

[siva_chair]

We've also 'always had':


Massive urban population centers
Near-universal literacy
Wireless Internet
Global trade and competition
...
Indoor plumbing


If libertarians had their way, we'd all sit around our manly campfires, cleaning our Kentucky rifles and eating charred bison with our crooked yellow teeth, while our counterparts in Europe and Asia enjoyed having actual ... infrastructures! and quietly planned to turn the US into a profitable wildlife preserve.

But I guess I forgot that the most progressive libertarians believe we are still living somewhere in the 18th century, and the least progressive, somewhere in the 10th.

I'm not quite sure where you fit in yet. Could you tell me please?

At least I don't make the terrible logical fallacy of assuming that the state is necessary for any of the above.

Public education isn't the only source of education, dipshit. But you go ahead and conveniently ignore that and just spout more logical fallacies, mkay?

[1338 h4x0r]

At least I don't make the terrible logical fallacy of assuming that the state is necessary for any of the above.

Public education isn't the only source of education, dipshit. But you go ahead and conveniently ignore that and just spout more logical fallacies, mkay?

Compare:

This is Somalia, liberated from 'the state':

http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/image/view/-/510126/highRes/58079/-/maxw/600/-/15qh6bpz/-/home+pix.jpg

This is Stockholm, under the cruel yoke of Bolshevism:

http://www.seedforum.org/userfiles/Stockholm(1).jpg

[siva_chair]

Compare:

This is Somalia, liberated from 'the state':

http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/image/view/-/510126/highRes/58079/-/maxw/600/-/15qh6bpz/-/home+pix.jpg

This is Stockholm, under the cruel yoke of Bolshevism:

http://www.seedforum.org/userfiles/Stockholm(1).jpg

Ironically, more schools have been opened up and far better infrastructure has been built in Somalia since the state disappeared than were around before.....Hmm....

And we all know that comparing a war torn 3rd world African country that spent 20 years under a brutal military dictatorship to a 1st world country with over a century of capital development isn't retarded at all.....:rolleyes:

Seriously, you can't be this retarded, can you?

[1338 h4x0r]

Ironically, more schools have been opened up and far better infrastructure has been built in Somalia since the state disappeared than were around before.....Hmm....

I was in Mogadishu last December and ... holy hell! ... it swear to God it was just like Taipei!

And we all know that comparing a war torn 3rd world African country that spent 20 years under a brutal military dictatorship to a 1st world country with over a century of capital development isn't retarded at all.....:rolleyes:

What would happen if the state weren't there?

Hint: consider Hurricane Katrina

I too loathe the abuses of the US government, but that doesn't mean it should every bit of it be thrown out.

Seriously, you can't be this retarded, can you?

The slow one here is the one who doesn't realize he's in a justifiably tiny and pitiful minority.

[Already_Taken]

Seriously, you can't be this retarded, can you?

ahem, siva...

[siva_chair]

I was in Mogadishu last December and ... holy hell! ... it swear to God it was just like Taipei!

Oh so more sidestepping things. Awesome.

What would happen if the state weren't there?

Hint: consider Hurricane Katrina

I too loathe the abuses of the US government, but that doesn't mean it should every bit of it be thrown out.

Oh you mean the Hurricane where the government response was days? You mean where most of the immediate aid to the victims came from private organizations and volunteer efforts? Omg your logic is just flawless.

The slow one here is the one who doesn't realize he's in a justifiably tiny and pitiful minority.

Oh my what is this? Do mine eyes decieve me?!? Quick! Winston, get the binoculars out I think I see an appeal to majority over yonder!

[1338 h4x0r]

Oh so more sidestepping things. Awesome.

Hard facts for your claims about infrastructure in Somalia

Oh you mean the Hurricane where the government response was days? You mean where most of the immediate aid to the victims came from private organizations and volunteer efforts? Omg your logic is just flawless.

These efforts, though valiant, were inadequate

The failure in New Orleans was not so much one of the government per se, but of Bush's terrible administration

Oh my what is this? Do mine eyes decieve me?!? Quick! Winston, get the binoculars out I think I see an appeal to majority over yonder!

There's a reason I put 'justifiably' small.

The anarchist minority is small for the same reason that the 'ufologist' minority is small.

[siva_chair]

Hard facts for your claims about infrastructure in Somalia

When extreme poverty (percentage of individuals living on less than PPP$1 a day) was last measured by the World Bank in 1998, Somalia fared better than many other countries in Africa, over some of whom Somalia also had superior infrastructure

From: wikipedia

Also:

Somalia has some of the best telecommunications in Africa, with a handful of companies ready to wire home or office and provide crystal-clear service, including international long distance, for about $10 a month."

According to the CIA World Factbook, private telephone companies "offer service in most major cities" via wireless technology, charging "the lowest international rates on the continent"

In 1989, before the collapse of the government, the national airline had only one airplane. Now there are approximately fifteen airlines, over sixty aircraft, six international destinations, and more domestic routes in Somalia. Private airlines, including Air Somalia and Daallo Airlines, serve several domestic locations as well as Djibouti, the United Arab Emirates, Paris and London. According to a 2005 World Bank report, the "private airline business in Somalia is now thriving with more than five carriers and price wars between the companies.

In a 2007 study of the current state of education in Somalia since the collapse of central authority in 1991, Abdullahi Sheikh Abdinoor found that "the Somali people have adapted rather well, under the circumstances, to the absence of the state, despite continuing insecurity and lawlessness prevailing in the country." Following the destruction of educational systems and infrastructure during the civil war, nascent educational institutions have emerged in anarchy; teachers and other educators who saw the need for education "quite spontaneously" opened their own institutions. For-profit educational institutions were established simultaneously by entrepreneurial businessmen.

For centuries, the Somali community, as opposed to the state, has been in charge of Islamic education in all aspects, providing financial and administrative support. The majority of the schools are provided by the free market, sustained by school fees (typically $10 per month); in cases where there are state-supported public schools, private schools are often coveted for their academic excellence, outperforming their public competitors in academic achievement tests. The number of primary schools have risen from 600 before the civil war to 1,172 schools today, with an increase of 28% in primary school enrollment over the last 3 years. Enrollment in secondary schools has also increased since 1998. In Mogadishu, the Benadir University, the Somalia National University, and the Mogadishu University are three of the eight universities providing tertiary education in Southern Somalia.


[QUOTE]These efforts, though valiant, were inadequate

The failure in New Orleans was not so much one of the government per se, but of Bush's terrible administration

Oh how convenient. You are still ignoring the role private organization played in the relief effort.

There's a reason I put 'justifiably' small.

The anarchist minority is small for the same reason that the 'ufologist' minority is small.

The size of a particular group has no bearing on how correct they are.

[1338 h4x0r]

Sounds like you're not telling us the full story, siva

But if you insist on quoting the CIA World Factbook (LOL you just quoted a big gumm't resource), let's see everything:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html

Awesome, I can enjoy the lowest international phone rates in Africa with my 47.23 year expected lifespan and numerous parasitic infections

[siva_chair]

Sounds like you're not telling us the full story, siva

But if you insist on quoting the CIA World Factbook (LOL you just quoted a big gumm't resource), let's see everything:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html

Awesome, I can enjoy the lowest international phone rates in Africa with my 47.23 year expected lifespan and numerous parasitic infections

It's awesome that you ignore the fact that life expectancy has increased since becoming stateless. Also, more people have been immunized to diseases such as measels and TB, and there are now more physicians there.

Try again.

[1338 h4x0r]

Links or lies.

Also, is it a statistically significant increase? And where is the causal link? For someone who claims to be the master of spotting fallacies, you sure do a good job of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[siva_chair]

Links or lies.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

Pg. 12 for quick reference.

Also, is it a statistically significant increase? And where is the causal link? For someone who claims to be the master of spotting fallacies, you sure do a good job of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

The casual link is economics. The economic situation in the country has vastly improved.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

Pg. 12 for quick reference.

A change from 46.0 to 48.47.

Is there any evidence that change is statistically significant?

Is there any evidence that vaccinations, etc. aren't from the UN and other agencies coming in there and trying to fix things because that place was and remains a shithole?

Is there any evidence that Somalia would not have benefited under a state which did not impose an unreasonably strict command system on the economy?

The paper you gave me is a piece of ****; give me back the 2.3 minutes I spent looking at it.

[siva_chair]

A change from 46.0 to 48.47.

Is there any evidence that change is statistically significant?

Is there any evidence that vaccinations, etc. aren't from the UN and other agencies coming in there and trying to fix things because that place was and remains a shithole?

Is there any evidence that Somalia would not have benefited under a state which did not impose an unreasonably strict command system on the economy?

The paper you gave me is a piece of ****; give me back the 2.3 minutes I spent looking at it.

Oh wow what a convenient sidestepping operation you have there.

[1338 h4x0r]

Asking for evidence of statistical significance when figures change up or down isn't unreasonable.

Unless that life expectancy increase is significant at the .95 level, stfu.

[siva_chair]

Asking for evidence of statistical significance when figures change up or down isn't unreasonable.

Unless that life expectancy increase is significant at the .95 level, stfu.

And you still ignore the very significant increases in all the other areas. Let me guess, those are just flukes, right?

You are also ignoring the primary reason the country was a "shithole" to begin with. Here's a hint: it isn't because of anarchism.

[1338 h4x0r]

When you get an education past high school and find out what 'statistically significant' means, I'll take up this discussion with you again.

Suffice it to say that licking your finger and putting it up to the wind may be an adequate substitute for thorough measurement and analysis in whatever closed-gate libertarian gun-nut compound you live on, it isn't in the rest of the world.

I.e. if saying "Naw those figures just CAN'T be flukes" were anywhere near as good as actual statistical analysis, then statisticians wouldn't enjoy such high salaries.

The PDF you linked me too did not use this kind of approach to the data it used, which is why it is digital toilet paper not worth my consideration.

But anyway, I have to go eat breakfast now and attend a recitation and stuff because I'm busy becoming successful and wealthy and not a loony libertarian gun-nut, peace

[siva_chair]

When you get an education past high school and find out what 'statistically significant' means, I'll take up this discussion with you again.

Suffice it to say that licking your finger and putting it up to the wind may be an adequate substitute for thorough measurement and analysis in whatever closed-gate libertarian gun-nut compound you live on, it isn't in the rest of the world.

I.e. if saying "Naw those figures just CAN'T be flukes" were anywhere near as good as actual statistical analysis, then statisticians wouldn't enjoy such high salaries.

But anyway, I have to go eat breakfast now and attend a recitation and stuff because I'm busy becoming successful and wealthy and not a loony libertarian gun-nut, peace

Those statistics were derived from the UN and the CIA factbook.....yeah those aren't valid sources at all.

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm not contesting the validity of those statistics themselves. I am, however, contesting the way the author of that paper is abusing them.

Plus, the UN and CIA are both big gumm't agencies. In fact, IIRC, the UN is reviled by conservatives and libertarians everywhere, and the CIA is the reason why people like believe they need to wear tinfoil hats, so you just shot yourself in the foot with one of the many penis substitutes you own; good job

[siva_chair]

I'm not contesting the validity of those statistics themselves. I am, however, contesting the way the author of that paper is abusing them.
Really because you haven't done jack **** to illustrate how the author of that paper is incorrect. Sorry but putting your fingers in your ears, stamping your feet, and yelling "NO UR RONG NO UR RONG NO UR RONG!" isn't the best way of going about proving your point (if you ever even had a legitimate one to begin with). It just doesn't cut it.

Plus, the UN and CIA are both big gumm't agencies. In fact, IIRC, the UN is reviled by conservatives and libertarians everywhere, and the CIA is the reason why people like believe they need to wear tinfoil hats, so you just shot yourself in the foot with one of the many penis substitutes you own; good job

Umm are you an idiot?

People aren't typically against the UN and the CIA on the account of their gathering of statistics. Nice job with that one.

[1338 h4x0r]

Really because you haven't done jack **** to illustrate how the author of that paper is incorrect.

He didn't demonstrate statistical significance.

That was rather short, wasn't it?

[PunkItUp]

i wen 2 pubic scool an looky me i turnd out gud :confused:

[siva_chair]

He didn't demonstrate statistical significance.

That was rather short, wasn't it?

He demonstrated how and why the percentage of Somalians with access to healthcare has double since the fall of state, access to sanitation has increased, infant mortality has decreased, etc. Are you saying that none of these things factor into life expectancy? Not only that, he compared trends with Somalia's neighbors. What more are you looking for?

Maybe you should read a little closer next time.

Either way, the comparative statistics themselves speak volumes about your assertion that a state is necessary for infrastructure, education, etc.

[1338 h4x0r]

What more are you looking for?

Proper statistical analysis.

Saying "lookie there! them there numbers done jumped!" doesn't mean diddly

If you have trouble comprehending what I am trying to say, this is a pretty good place to start:

http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/webtext.html

But, there again, I suppose you have learned more about the mathematics of decision making than I have and are therefore more qualified to speak on such matters than I am.

[siva_chair]

Proper statistical analysis.

Saying "lookie there! them there numbers done jumped!" doesn't mean diddly

If you have trouble comprehending what I am trying to say, this is a pretty good place to start:

http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/webtext.html

Well yeah it doesn't mean diddly if you ignore the whole part about the paper that explains them and applies context to them, but I don't suppose you bothered to do that, did you?

But there again I suppose you've learned more about the mathematics of decision making than I have and are therefore more qualified to speak on such matters than I am.

What is this? A self-referential appeal to authority? Well that is certainly new.

Here you go again assuming far too many things about someone you don't know **** about.

[1338 h4x0r]

When you don't know what 'statistically significant' means, and don't see why it's important for someone making bold claims about how a country 'prospers' under anarchy to use more rigorous measures, I have no choice but to condescend.

I'm not making an appeal to authority. I'm making an appeal to knowledge. Knowledge which you lack.

Any social science study of value uses some kind of rigorous mathematical modeling to give weight to its findings, typically in the form of statistical analysis. Yours does not.

That is why it is a piece of ****.

[siva_chair]

When you don't know what 'statistically significant' means, and don't see why it's important for someone making bold claims about how a country 'prospers' under anarchy to use more rigorous measures, I have no choice but to condescend.

If you clearly didn't read the damn paper I have no choice but to call you out on your sidestepping of the issue.

I'm not making an appeal to authority. I'm making an appeal to knowledge. Knowledge which you lack.

Hmm....

But there again I suppose you've learned more about the mathematics of decision making than I have and are therefore more qualified to speak on such matters than I am.

Sounds an awful lot like you were asserting that you were right because you feel yourself more "qualified to speak on such matters" than I.

Any social science study of value uses some kind of rigorous mathematical modeling to give weight to its findings, typically in the form of statistical analysis. Yours does not.

48.47 > 46.0. This is about all the mathematics you need to concern yourself with in a comparative statistical analysis such as this (which was the entire purpose of the piece, mind you).

Now if you'd get your head out of your *** you would see that the author gives reasoning to why it has changed in the matter it has.

[1338 h4x0r]

Sounds an awful lot like you were asserting that you were right because you feel yourself more "qualified to speak on such matters" than I.

I do. And not without reason.

48.47 > 46.0. This is about all the mathematics you need to concern yourself with in a comparative statistical analysis such as this (which was the entire purpose of the piece, mind you).

Wrong:

http://cs.uni.edu/~campbell/stat/inf5.html#TI

Seriously ... learn what the **** you are talking about. Is the author committing a type I error? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly don't know what kind of distribution life expectancies come from. I imagine life expectancies are normally distributed in any country, and even if that's the case I still don't have samples from the Somalian population I can draw data for a t-test from.

But, regardless, until I do know for sure, I'm going to continue to assume the null hypothesis is true: namely that anarchy in Somalia hasn't had a statistically significant effect on life expectancy there.

[siva_chair]

I do. And not without reason.

Oh so you were committing a logical fallacy. I see.

Wrong:

http://cs.uni.edu/~campbell/stat/inf5.html#TI

Seriously ... learn what the **** you are talking about. Is the author committing a type I error? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly don't know what kind of distribution life expectancies come from. (I imagine life expectancy is normally distributed in any country, but if that's the case I still don't know variance for Somalia.) But until I do know for sure, I'm going to continue to assume the null hypothesis is true: namely that anarchy in Somalia hasn't had a statistically significant improvement on life expectancy there.

Considering how the author demonstrated how access to health and medical care increased, infant mortality has decreased, the rate of extreme poverty decreased, and security in many parts of the country is better than ever, general crime has decreased, (all of these play into life expectancy figures) I'd say the case presented for causation is pretty strong.

[T]he UNDP, World Bank, CIA, and World Health Organization have
collected sufficient data to conduct an “event study” that identifies the impact of anarchy on Somali welfare. Such a study allows us to compare Somali development before and after statelessness emerged. To do this I examine all development indicators in Somalia for which data are available pre- and post-statelessness, using the most updated figures in each case. 18 key development indicators allow for comparison. I consider the last five years of government preceding the emergence of statelessness (1985-1990) and the most recent five years of Somali anarchy (2000-2005).

[1338 h4x0r]

Again ... you're not showing me that the gains in life expectancy were statistically significant.

That's all I'm asking for right now. If you can go to Somalia, which is supposedly an anarchist paradise now, collect sizable samples of terminal ages for people who died under gubbermint and under anarchy in Somalia over the next several decades, then use the data to do a t-test and show me that the life expectancy under anarchy is significantly distinct from that under gubbermint, I will believe you.

Until then: stfu

[siva_chair]

Again ... you're not showing me that the gains in life expectancy were statistically significant.

That's all I'm asking for right now. If you can go to Somalia, which is supposedly an anarchist paradise now, collect sizable samples of terminal ages for people who died under gubbermint and under anarchy in Somalia over the next several decades, then use the data to do a t-test and show me that the life expectancy under anarchy is significantly distinct from that under gubbermint, I will believe you.

Until then: stfu

Oh so now it has to be done over decades now?

It is obvious that the trend of rising life expectancy, lowered infant mortality rates, higher capital and infrastructure development, the building of more educational facilities, more physicians and access to healthcare are NOT the result of their being a state, which, if you recall, was the entire point of this whole thing.

If your assertion that the state is necessary for the building of infrastructure were true, there would NOT have been an increase in it. Thus, your original assertion was emphatically FALSE. We can clearly derive this a posteriori by looking at the fact that a) it developed and b) there was no state present. Regardless of whether "anarchy" is the cause of it, your assertion fails.

[Already_Taken]

dude their life expectancy rising from 46-48 is not a big deal. first of all, it's the lowest in the world (GO ANARCHY!). 2nd of all to give credit to anarchy for that is dumb, because if their life expectancy were to fall any further it would be a crime against humanity for the rest of us in the world to let it.

[Iskandar]

The civil war in Somalia isn't Mohamed Siad Barre's fault. He's been dead for decades. It's the fault of warring clans and political factions which the government is struggling in vain to control. Probably a dictator was the only thing that could have held the country together, much like Iraq.

The state is trying to prevent a much worse regime from rising to power, which is the Islamic Courts Union. They are winning the war and if they do they will establish a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy, which is how they already govern the territory they control.

[sLarkin20]

Just major in nuclear engineering where they are expanding most programs and even reopening them at some schools because the industry realizes demand is going to greatly succeed the supply of new engineers, and they are pretty much throwing scholarships at people to entice them into their programs. Even white males can get some!

[siva_chair]

dude their life expectancy rising from 46-48 is not a big deal. first of all, it's the lowest in the world (GO ANARCHY!). 2nd of all to give credit to anarchy for that is dumb, because if their life expectancy were to fall any further it would be a crime against humanity for the rest of us in the world to let it.

There are 18 countries with lower life expectancies than Somalia. You should probably do a little more research before you act like you know what you are talking about.

Also it is pretty absurd to blame anarchy for the low life expectancy, especially considering the fact that it was lower before the area became stateless. Good use of logic there buddy. But then again this kind of thing isn't uncommon from you.

The civil war in Somalia isn't Mohamed Siad Barre's fault. He's been dead for decades. It's the fault of warring clans and political factions which the government is struggling in vain to control. Probably a dictator was the only thing that could have held the country together, much like Iraq.

And they are clearly better off without the dictator and in spite of the civil war. Are they in awesome shape compared to other parts of the world? No, but to expect that they would be at that sort of level is unrealistic considering what they have had to build from. One cannot deny that the trend is moving in a positive direction with the lack of a state. What would you prefer be done? The UN role up in there and wave their magic wand of democracy so these people can "choose" who their oppressors are?

The state is trying to prevent a much worse regime from rising to power, which is the Islamic Courts Union. They are winning the war and if they do they will establish a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy, which is how they already govern the territory they control.

And that territory is rather small, comparatively.

Most of the violence is confined to Mogadishu, by the way. The rest of the country is much more secure and safer than it is.

[Iskandar]

And they are clearly better off without the dictator and in spite of the civil war.Maybe. But that doesn't follow they wouldn't be better off under the stability only a state can provide.
And that territory is rather small, comparatively.

Most of the violence is confined to Mogadishu, by the way. The rest of the country is much more secure and safer than it is.No actually the ICU has made significant gains in the last couple of years and is probably winning the war. The government only actually controls about a third of the country. There is a reason the Ethiopian forces left.

[siva_chair]

Maybe. But that doesn't follow they wouldn't be better off under the stability only a state can provide.

Ok Mr. Humanitarian, what state are you going to impose on these people that will magically solve their problems? A democracy? Perhaps they can model themselves after our fine governments, no? That is sure to work.

No actually the ICU has made significant gains in the last couple of years and is probably winning the war. The government only actually controls about a third of the country. There is a reason the Ethiopian forces left.

Most of the violence still occurs in Mogadishu.

The "government" controls very little, period. They basically have hardly any ability to tax the population (even in the parts that are relatively stable and under their "control.")

Tribalism runs deep in the Somalian culture, and anything short of a brutal dictator is not going to be "stable." That is what happens when you round up a bunch of nomadic tribes and try to impose a national identity and state on them.

[Iskandar]

The best solution is probably a decentralized federation. Somaliland should probably be independent (it pretty much is already) or at least autonomous. For the tribes to sort out their problems they need stability first instead of endless war. The government can rule or the ICU can. Take your pick, but I would rather have a flawed democracy than a theocracy.

[ATC]

By the internet I mean everything from finding good books and purchasing them up to and including online lectures (more and more of which are being offered free). As to the latter points, that is an issue that exists not with the universities, but rather with the high schools. Universities should not be responsible for teaching students critical thinking and research. People who do not have those skills should not even be in universities (that they are is, in my opinion, a tremendous problem). I'm also quite certain that if universities required those skills as prerequisites to admission, those who wished to attend would learn them.

No. I assure you the problem exists with universities as well. There is significant disconnect between high school and universities, yes, but neither of those are achieving their goals or are transparent and accountable about what it is they aim to produce either.

Now, this whole internet thing I'm not sure you've addressed how you intend to, on your own, design a course in say Introduction to Microeconomics (let's start with lower level courses with the assumption that the directions for higher level learning will come in time) without knowing what Microeconomics is. Where will you start? Get a book. Great, you'll learn something maybe. Are you able to contextualize it? Probably not. Distance ed, while convenient and useful in many regards, has some flaws in the current system. As it stands, online learning is based on convenience and expediency, and has no benefits that a university education cannot provide better. If you did not want to include distance ed, then you're left with deciding on your own what to learn and how to learn it, which presupposes, for effectiveness, that you have the skills to avoid a patchy design. Also, the problem with lectures, online or otherwise, is that they are usually the least effective method of information transfer. I generally take issue with the idea that "I don't need to be taught. I can learn anything." It presumes a degree of focus and aptitude that most high school graduates do not have.


I disagree completely. University education for the general populous is completely disproportionate in terms of cost/benefit. If people actively pursued learning in social environments and on their own, the education would surpass the usefulness of university education. If educated discussion were a normal part of social interaction, it would be far more educational than spending four years in a university whilst caring little for actually learning anything there.

Awful lot of if's. You'd need to revamp culture totally to have this be true. A university graduate, if nothing else and to varying degrees, should have certain skills that a non-university graduate does not. Is the cost/benefit on higher education for all worth it? No but it should still be accessible to everyone that is serious about it. When a significant portion of college graduates have been rated by their instructors as not having acquired these skills and yet pass

[beso negro]

Also, the problem with lectures, online or otherwise, is that they are usually the least effective method of information transfer.

not for a lot of people. lectures are much more effective for me than reading out of a book.

[sLarkin20]

Depends on if those lectures are simply straight from the damn book.

I hate that ****.

[ATC]

not for a lot of people. lectures are much more effective for me than reading out of a book.

I'm not suggesting that you solely read books to replace lectures. Lectures are passive learning experiences. It has been proven that students learn better in an active learning environment. This means when they are invested in what they are learning, which essentially means class time must be focussed not primarily on the nuggets of wisdom the instructor imparts but on developing their understanding of the material. Collaborative learning, problem solving, focussing the class and questions in a certain manner to address specific learning goals, rapid feedback systems, personalized learning environments, making sure that in-class to out-of-class time spent for a class sticks to 3 hours out of class to 1 hour in class, that sort of thing. I find all that is fairly effective. Granted, I've only been teaching this way about a month now but at least I've clearly measurable indicators of learning.

[1338 h4x0r]

Oh so now it has to be done over decades now?

Yeah, because the government collapsed fairly recently after all. Maybe Somalia life expectancy will be 37.4 after a full generation under anarchy, but I guess you didn't consider that.

It is obvious that the trend of rising life expectancy, lowered infant mortality rates, higher capital and infrastructure development, the building of more educational facilities, more physicians and access to healthcare are NOT the result of their being a state, which, if you recall, was the entire point of this whole thing.

You still haven't shown that these changes are statistically significant.

[Angmar]

I think I wanna move to Somalia, my life expectancy may drop severely, but hey, they don't hand out education for free like a bunch of communists I hate that man!

[1338 h4x0r]

Anything in the name of freedom

Big gumm't and thuh Feminazis want to emasculate us

[Mr. Ron]

I just want to gets me a skinny

[1338 h4x0r]

Somalia's national motto should be NO FAT CHICKS

[Iskandar]

Pretty sure it's hard to be fat when people can barely feed themselves. I mean, the area is notorious for famines.

[1338 h4x0r]

That's why I said NO FAT CHICKS

Cuz Somalia has NO FAT CHICKS

[Iskandar]

Also no old people because the life expectancy is 45!

[Mr. Ron]

no fat chicks and they're all under 45!? Did someone say SPRING BREAK?????

[Murdererer]

i believe school should not be paid for by the government but instead the parents should decide if the kids should go and pay their way if they choose to. sometimes parents want their kids to work in the farms instead and mandatory school kind of ****s that schedule and is unnecessary

[1338 h4x0r]

no fat chicks and they're all under 45!? Did someone say SPRING BREAK?????

http://www.girlsgonewild.com/

http://www.gungirls.com/

You bring the video camera ... I think I can find the demo for this kind of thing.

[sLarkin20]

Somalian Girls Gone Wild!?!?

Suck it, Joe Francis.

[1338 h4x0r]

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/somali-girls.jpg

Flash those titties! Yea-ah!

[sLarkin20]

omg wich 1 wud u do?/

[Iskandar]

Okay no more talk about Somalia. If you want to start a thread on it go nuts though.

[sLarkin20]

Cause this thread didn't go off-topic at about page 2, or anything.

[Iskandar]

I'm here to bring you back on track. The Emperor is most displeased with your progress.

[sLarkin20]

I personally believe the educational budget cuts are bad.

[Permanent Solution]

No. I assure you the problem exists with universities as well. There is significant disconnect between high school and universities, yes, but neither of those are achieving their goals or are transparent and accountable about what it is they aim to produce either.

Now, this whole internet thing I'm not sure you've addressed how you intend to, on your own, design a course in say Introduction to Microeconomics (let's start with lower level courses with the assumption that the directions for higher level learning will come in time) without knowing what Microeconomics is. Where will you start? Get a book. Great, you'll learn something maybe. Are you able to contextualize it? Probably not. Distance ed, while convenient and useful in many regards, has some flaws in the current system. As it stands, online learning is based on convenience and expediency, and has no benefits that a university education cannot provide better. If you did not want to include distance ed, then you're left with deciding on your own what to learn and how to learn it, which presupposes, for effectiveness, that you have the skills to avoid a patchy design. Also, the problem with lectures, online or otherwise, is that they are usually the least effective method of information transfer. I generally take issue with the idea that "I don't need to be taught. I can learn anything." It presumes a degree of focus and aptitude that most high school graduates do not have.



Awful lot of if's. You'd need to revamp culture totally to have this be true. A university graduate, if nothing else and to varying degrees, should have certain skills that a non-university graduate does not. Is the cost/benefit on higher education for all worth it? No but it should still be accessible to everyone that is serious about it. When a significant portion of college graduates have been rated by their instructors as not having acquired these skills and yet pass
I think that we really agree on a lot of points so I want to re-clarify my position a bit.

As it stands now, things don't work. My proposal for making them work is to have the university sham that currently exists become too expensive for nearly everyone to attend, instead becoming a luxury only for the most advanced students. In place, high schools will rehabilitate learning in younger students, and through that rehabilitation, students will end up only learning about what they wish to learn about. The resources are out there to learn the facts, but I certainly agree that facts do not comprise a good education. However, given that people will be studying subjects as a hobby and of their own desire, their learning will be more likely to arise in conversation, which would create an active learning environment. Currently, school is like work and tends to be a forbidden topic outside of the courses themselves. But if learning were a hobby like sports or music, it would come up more often in casual conversation, and as people were challenged, an even greater education would be provided than anything the current university system provides.

[IbanezArtist]

Eh, I have a full ride to my college, idc.

I pretty much win.

Feel sorry for others though as their tuition is rising exponentially ~10% each year.

However my state won't increase taxes on cigarettes...

[Futue te Ipsum]

And your universal education wouldn't even become close to a possible reality.

You seem to be contradicting yourself by stating that no one has the right to subsidize anything, but then you claim everyone should have a free education. How is this possible?good luck keeping your economy going when all your doctors are C grade retards, your accountants bad at maths, and the rest of your professional work force selected from an overly small section of society based on the merits of their lineage as opposed to their own personal ability.

There's a reason education should be accessible. It just works.

[siva_chair]

good luck keeping your economy going when all your doctors are C grade retards, your accountants bad at maths, and the rest of your professional work force selected from an overly small section of society based on the merits of their lineage as opposed to their own personal ability.

There's a reason education should be accessible. It just works.

And where exactly is your proof that the quality of education would diminish and it would only be accessible to those with the "proper lineage" under a free market alternative?

[1338 h4x0r]

Exhibit A: the average University of Phoenix 'graduate'

[sLarkin20]

Oooooooh snap.

[1338 h4x0r]

Heil Five

:angry:/\:angry:

[Angmar]

yay!

[McP3000]

lol this isn't R&M 1338

[beso negro]

good luck keeping your economy going when all your doctors are C grade retards, your accountants bad at maths, and the rest of your professional work force selected from an overly small section of society based on the merits of their lineage as opposed to their own personal ability.

There's a reason education should be accessible. It just works.

all accounting majors I know are bad at maths lol. and most doctors are dumb, chris proved that in another thread i believe

[1338 h4x0r]

all accounting majors I know are bad at maths lol. and most doctors are dumb, chris proved that in another thread i believe

Accounting is all arithmetic, and, yes, I really only know one accountant who is good at math

I didn't say most doctors are dumb per se; I just pointed out that (most) people have a horrible intuitive grasp of probability, e.g., doctors not knowing how to apply Bayes' theorem

[gregulus]

The vast majority of the people I have met that want to be doctors and engineers are idiots. Calculus isn't even a requirement for a lot of med schools. That's ridiculous.

[beso negro]

i haven't met any engineers who I thought had at least above average intelligence, except for maybe software engineers but i don't consider software engineering an engineering discipline.

i hope u were exaggerating because if you consider them idiots what do u think of a lot of these lazy liberal arts kids? I can quote shakespeare imma genius. I can recite "important" dates in history imma genius. bet they couldn't last a week in calc 1.

[1338 h4x0r]

The vast majority of the people I have met that want to be doctors and engineers are idiots. Calculus isn't even a requirement for a lot of med schools. That's ridiculous.

If anything, doctors really only need one semester of calculus. Just so they have a feel for how differentiation and integration work.

In general, their needs would most likely be better served by a semester of probability and statistics, assuming they already have algebra down, of course.

i hope u were exaggerating because if you consider them idiots what do u think of a lot of these lazy liberal arts kids? I can quote shakespeare imma genius. I can recite "important" dates in history imma genius. bet they couldn't last a week in calc 1.

I should remind you that, in a sense, I am now a "lazy liberal arts kid".

I used to work for a teacher of English as a second language and had to photocopy journals of educational studies ... there's more that goes into it than you think. In particular, TESL can be very difficult sometimes. It comes naturally to me, which is why they hired me without qualification, but even I got stumped a few times.

[Already_Taken]

oh so if you're main interest is a liberal art of sorts you're lazy for pursuing that degree in college.

i think you're an idiot for thinking calculus teaches you anything related to saving someone's life.

[starlight1589]

i personally have experianced the increase in mu tuition ..its sad..but i hope in the next couple years they can figure things out

[1338 h4x0r]

i think you're an idiot for thinking calculus teaches you anything related to saving someone's life.

That's not exactly true, ex:

http://staff.jccc.net/mmartin/biomath/237info.html

All medical doctors have to do original research and it's entirely possible calculus will come up in any modeling they have to do.

[Already_Taken]

so where's the part when you're physically performing an operation where you need to differentiate 2 equations? now find the limits. now close the initial incision, but first get your calculator ready...

[1338 h4x0r]

Administration of medication and other effects involving the bloodstream (where rates of change are very common) often use calculus

[Already_Taken]

oh well where i'm from we call proportions elementary algebra.

[beso negro]

calculus is very important in medicine. it is very important in many disciplines. without it we wouldn't have electronics or cars or apparently some medicines.

but i don't see why a doctor would need it. what do they do beside prescribe medicine?

[1338 h4x0r]

Some instances of medical modeling require more than that

Anyway, taking one semester of calculus probably has a good effect on the mind

[McP3000]

calculus ap was my favorite math in all of high school, but i tried to help one of my friends in college with calculus and i basically forgot it all.

kinda depressing

[1338 h4x0r]

It happens

[Already_Taken]

it happens because it is useless for most real world applications. it is completely abstract, which makes it hard to remember when you never apply it to anything.

[Permanent Solution]

Calculus is applicable to the real world stop being liberal arts dunces

(:D)

[Already_Taken]

SUP DAWG! i heard u like functions so we put a function up in yo function so u can derive while u derive. :biggrin:


..you're right i'm sorry

[1338 h4x0r]

it happens because it is useless for most real world applications. it is completely abstract, which makes it hard to remember when you never apply it to anything.

Calculus is only a little abstract

Now ... category theory ... that's abstract

[Already_Taken]

only a little abstract...

When every dam sentence in the book has 3 "ifs" in it, it is completely abstract.

plus something is abstract or it isn't. there's no middle.

[1338 h4x0r]

Abstract means that it is separated from some underlying physical reality. A lot of 'if's simply means it's convoluted.

Calculus isn't really abstract because it applies very directly to the thing being modeled.

[Already_Taken]

it's completely abstract to me and i hate it. it makes sense, it is just that it is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pointless. it's just finding patterns in numbers, which is useful if you're a mathmetician, which if you are is annoying because all mathmeticians do is find more patterns in numbers and create new forms of pointless math. let's get some applicable math instead of this made-up bull poop.

[1338 h4x0r]

This is how graph theory came into being:

http://www.contracosta.cc.ca.us/math/KBRIDG3.GIF

Proving that no one could walk over seven bridges in Königsberg (modern-day Kaliningrad) without crossing one more than once.

Graph theory, of course, later became useful in this guy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Internet_map_1024.jpg

Even number theory stopped being useless **** when the 20th century rolled around.

[Radiobass81]

That is looking more and more appealing every day.

"9/11 was an event where our very own government new about this threat and stood there with their thumbs in their asses, then tried to use it as a justification to send lots of young men and women off to die, all for the expansion of it's power and influence. This is not a unique thing in the history of states."

"The Holocaust is probably one of the best examples of the immorality of the state."

"Mexicans are simply taking back the land that the white people drove them off of 100 or so years ago."

:wave:

I just wanted to point out that this is the first post from siva I actually agree with.

[Iskandar]

You can't condemn all states though because one committed the Holocaust. It is a condemnation of fascism and other types of political extremism.

[1338 h4x0r]

I see no distinction between the government of modern-day Belgium and the Third Reich

[Iskandar]

They're both clearly examples of statist tyranny. I mean, the government of Belgium actually taxes people. Taxes them. That is an unacceptable aggression against their property rights, as is allowing planes to fly over their houses.

[Already_Taken]

This is how graph theory came into being:

http://www.contracosta.cc.ca.us/math/KBRIDG3.GIF

Proving that no one could walk over seven bridges in Königsberg (modern-day Kaliningrad) without crossing one more than once.

Graph theory, of course, later became useful in this guy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Internet_map_1024.jpg

Even number theory stopped being useless **** when the 20th century rolled around.

oh so because you said calculus created the internet then it obviously did. and if you need a graph to realize you can't walk across those bridges once each then you need more street smarts and less book smarts and i'm sorry.

[iliketoplaydrums10111]

this thread is probably way off topic, but we just got an email from our dean outlining budget cuts and preparing for less funding. basically more students per class, cutting a bunch of classes and some other stuff

it sucks

[beso negro]

it's completely abstract to me and i hate it. it makes sense, it is just that it is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pointless. it's just finding patterns in numbers, which is useful if you're a mathmetician, which if you are is annoying because all mathmeticians do is find more patterns in numbers and create new forms of pointless math. let's get some applicable math instead of this made-up bull poop.

there is no such thing as pointless math

[Iscariot]

There is when you're talking about how often someone is going to apply that math in their every day life.

If you're going to work for the city repairing roads and fixing water mains, then learning trigonometry is pointless.

[sLarkin20]

I sort of agree that it's pointless if there is no practical usefulness to it.

[Permanent Solution]

it's completely abstract to me and i hate it. it makes sense, it is just that it is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pointless. it's just finding patterns in numbers, which is useful if you're a mathmetician, which if you are is annoying because all mathmeticians do is find more patterns in numbers and create new forms of pointless math. let's get some applicable math instead of this made-up bull poop.
you failing to understand it doesn't make it pointless.
this thread is probably way off topic, but we just got an email from our dean outlining budget cuts and preparing for less funding. basically more students per class, cutting a bunch of classes and some other stuff

it sucks

we got another email today. Besides staff being forced to take 10% (or so) furloughs, next year they plan to admit less students and to close some campuses and schools. On the plus side, it seems like they're trying to maintain academic integrity rather than just making classes enormous.

[Swill_Merchant]

you failing to understand it doesn't make it pointless.


I have a calculator.

[gregulus]

I have a calculator.

That will work great until you actually need to use the theory behind the numbers that you're punching into said calculator in specific patterns.

[gregulus]

it happens because it is useless for most real world applications. it is completely abstract, which makes it hard to remember when you never apply it to anything.

Calculus is extremely applicable to the real world. Differential equations are a lot more than just numbers.

[Swill_Merchant]

That will work great until you actually need to use the theory behind the numbers that you're punching into said calculator in specific patterns.

Man, I just use it for groceries and "awesome add and subtract hour".

[Already_Taken]

If you're going to work for the city repairing roads and fixing water mains, then learning trigonometry is pointless.

okay, well trigonometry would actually probably be useful in that field. calculus not so much.

and i know it's not totally pointless to everyone, and i see how it could be interesting (my mom majored in mathematics wtf?), but right now i'm in calc and i hate it and i'm only bitter about it.

[BridgeToSolace]

Most every-day applications for t3h calculus maths are repetitive calculations that don't need to be understood to carry out. If you aren't an engineer or a maths person calculus wont mater to you at all. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 90% of the population didn't require an understanding of calculus.

ie. if that road worker has to calculate the rate of change for the hardness of concrete as it dries or something.

just get a chart or something that has hours/temp/humidity/w/e

Or yeah, a calculator. Again, understanding is irrelevant.

I don't see he maths can be interesting. Numbers - context = irrelevance

[siva_chair]

Calculus is quite beautiful.

[1338 h4x0r]

oh so because you said calculus created the internet then it obviously did. and if you need a graph to realize you can't walk across those bridges once each then you need more street smarts and less book smarts and i'm sorry.

No, I said graph theory (contributed to) the Internet.

It's hard to imagine how packets could be routed efficiently today without Dijkstra's algorithm.

And the 'seven bridges' problem was only solved definitively by Euler; people had tried (unsuccessfully) to find a way to cross for years before then.

Yes, maybe it looks like common sense now, but economics and psychology also examine a lot of 'common sense', and then build on it (or tear it down) as necessary.

Really there's no way you can say that calculus is useless in the real world.

[Already_Taken]

bridgetosolace, as usual sums it up quite well.

[ATC]

Really there's no way you can say that calculus is useless in the real world.

There is, however, a way to say that calculus is not useful to everybody in the real world.

[RG560M]

This is how graph theory came into being:

http://www.contracosta.cc.ca.us/math/KBRIDG3.GIF

Proving that no one could walk over seven bridges in Königsberg (modern-day Kaliningrad) without crossing one more than once.

Graph theory, of course, later became useful in this guy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Internet_map_1024.jpg

Even number theory stopped being useless **** when the 20th century rolled around.

MA111... he made us try for an hour and a half to find a way over all 7 bridges without crossing one twice when we all kept insisting it couldn't be done.

[1338 h4x0r]

bridgetosolace, as usual sums it up quite well.

There is, however, a way to say that calculus is not useful to everybody in the real world.

Look at it this way: it may not be necessary to learn something, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Let's use language as another example. An English speaker doesn't need to learn anything other than English, really, but he is still substantially better off if he does.

There is an intangible benefit in any academic subject you study ... it changes the way you think. I personally learned more about the mechanics of (modern) English through German, Latin and Old English than through any actual English class. No doubt learning about calculus, statistics, and data structures, etc. will influence thoughts and behaviors usefully, even if not using that knowledge directly. The same can be said of economics, history, etc. Economics in particular is very awesome in that respect.

[Already_Taken]

Look at it this way: it may not be necessary to learn something, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Let's use language as another example. An English speaker doesn't need to learn anything other than English, really, but he is still substantially better off if he does.



not if he lives in the usa, canada, or a lot of western europe for his entire life. and comparing learning calculus to learning another language is stupid. calculus acts only as a base for more abstract principles.

unrelated: is music a language?

[1338 h4x0r]

not if he lives in the usa, canada, or a lot of western europe for his entire life. and comparing learning calculus to learning another language is stupid.

Why?

unrelated: is music a language?

No, since it can't be learned and used as such at the L1 stage.

[Already_Taken]

Why? well, because people speak english there



No, since it can't be learned and used as such at the L1 stage.

the L1 stage? wtf im guessing some stupid psych term your using to desperately try to prove to us that you're smart? what about the fact that me and a musician from russia could play a duet?

[Iskandar]

L1 means it's your native language. Music is nobody's native language.

Besides which it's not a language because it doesn't have grammar.

[Already_Taken]

hahha i could make so many arguments for it, but i know it's not a language. you could call me a fanboy

[1338 h4x0r]

well, because people speak english there

Yes, but imagine how much better off you would be if you were in Flanders and spoke Dutch.

Speaking 2+ languages is always an asset in any country.

the L1 stage? wtf im guessing some stupid psych term your using to desperately try to prove to us that you're smart?

L1 = first language acquisition

If something can be learned at L1, it can be considered a natural language. That's why people have pointed to Esperanto as being a successful experiment; it's been learned at L1.

what about the fact that me and a musician from russia could play a duet?

Me and some guy from idk Kerala could both solve a system of linear equations one step after another and not have to say a word to each other. That wouldn't make math a language per se

[Permanent Solution]

Math is the universal language.

Music is also math.

js

[1338 h4x0r]

Math is not a language

I really do love math

However it is not a language

Also, music is not only math. If it were, Markov chains and similar music generation methods probably would have overtaken or at least become an important part of music composition these days. Who the hell wants to listen to the shitty Computer Cantata?

[spitfirejunky]

Depends on your definition of language. Computability theory pretty much necessitates that aspects of math are languages.

[Permanent Solution]

Math is not a language

I really do love math

However it is not a language

Also, music is not only math. If it were, Markov chains and similar music generation methods probably would have overtaken or at least become an important part of music composition these days. Who the hell wants to listen to the shitty Computer Cantata?
Well, http://silvertone.princeton.edu/~dmitri/

I think the easy answer is we just haven't discovered the correct math to completely model it accurately. But we get closer all the time.

[Iskandar]

Yes, but imagine how much better off you would be if you were in Flanders and spoke Dutch.Flemish morelike. Though standard Dutch would probably come in handy too. And maybe French.
Speaking 2+ languages is always an asset in any country.Unless they speak your native languages too except for some immigrants.
If something can be learned at L1, it can be considered a natural language. That's why people have pointed to Esperanto as being a successful experiment; it's been learned at L1.[/I]Debatable because it's learned as an auxiliary language (which was always its purpose) and not a native language.

[1338 h4x0r]

Depends on your definition of language. Computability theory pretty much necessitates that aspects of math are languages.

Ok ... not a natural language. Otherwise anything with a grammar is a language and, in that case, music can be considered a language. Even if there weren't sheet music today, you could still come up with another, similar way of representing its grammar.

Well, http://silvertone.princeton.edu/~dmitri/

I think the easy answer is we just haven't discovered the correct math to completely model it accurately.

I hate to frame my response so baldly, but I've seen claims like this before, and that is such bullshit. Some things will just never fall to the world of the analytical. That's part of life.

Flemish morelike. Though standard Dutch would probably come in handy too. And maybe French.

Flemish is not all that distinct

Unless they speak your native languages too except for some immigrants.

Then the additional language has a cultural/social utility. It can also help you land a career. It's always an asset unless you live in Bum****, KS, like siva_chair, where the closest thing you see to a foreigner is an American black guy driving through town every few months.

Debatable because it's learned as an auxiliary language (which was always its purpose) and not a native language.

Google 'Esperanto L1'

It's modified a little in the process, but it is a viable L1 language

[Iskandar]

Flemish is not all that distinctNo but it's still not the same as standard Dutch and it's what the Flemish speak in their daily lives. It's like going to Hong Kong knowing only Mandarin.
Google 'Esperanto L1'

It's modified a little in the process, but it is a viable L1 languageIt's not your L1 unless it's the first language you use. Unless the children are completely isolated from English, it's not their L1. Really they're being raised bilingual.

[1338 h4x0r]

No but it's still not the same as standard Dutch and it's what the Flemish speak in their daily lives. It's like going to Hong Kong knowing only Mandarin.

Flemish : (standard) Dutch :: American English : British English

Cantonese : Mandarin :: Wu : Mandarin

Flemish is distinguished from standard Dutch mainly only by pronunciation and some idioms. I know this because I used to write in standard Dutch to a guy my age who lives in Flanders.

Now ... Cantonese ... has a substantially different vocabulary than does Mandarin, and substantially different sets of phonemes and tonemes (IIRC, Cantonese has eight or nine tones). Look at the numbers from one to ten for example:

Mandarin: yi1 er4 san1 si4 wu3 liu4 qi3 ba1 jiu3 shi2
Cantonese: jat1 ji6 loeng5 saam1 ng5 luk6 cat1 baat3 gau2 sap6

Now, if I didn't know any better, I would have categorized Cantonese as some kind of Tai-Kadai **** based on seeing that.

You will, of course, never see such a great distinction between standard Dutch and Flemish.

It's not your L1 unless it's the first language you use. Unless the children are completely isolated from English, it's not their L1. Really they're being raised bilingual.

People who are ****ed-up enough to learn Esperanto are (apparently) ****ed-up enough to teach their kids Esperanto at L1 stage.

[Iskandar]

Flemish : (standard) Dutch :: American English : British EnglishNope. More like AAVE : American English. Because it is largely understandable, but has distinct grammatical and lexical differences, and also suffers from low prestige.
People who are ****ed-up enough to learn Esperanto are (apparently) ****ed-up enough to teach their kids Esperanto at L1 stage.They are native speakers. They just can't say it's their L1 unless it's the first language they use for any purpose.

Anyway that's ignoring the bigger problems with Esperanto like its being Eurocentric and completely useless.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yes, Esperanto is a lollercaust.

What major grammatical distinctions are there in the Dutch / Flemish case?

Also, see my edit regarding Cantonese

[Iskandar]

Yes, Esperanto is a lollercaust.It's the most successful conlang which isn't saying much. Most never catch on at all. The only other big one I can think of is Klingon, which is useless because it lacks a complete enough lexicon. Ditto for Quenya and Sindarin.
What major grammatical distinctions are there in the Dutch / Flemish case?I couldn't tell you the exact details but they are there. Compare Dutch and one of the more divergent varieties and you'll see.

I tried to find sample texts to compare but couldn't find any for Flemish. This probably has to do with the lack of standardization.
Also, see my edit regarding CantoneseYes, Cantonese and Mandarin differ enough to be considered different languages. It makes sense since they're on opposite ends of the dialect continuum, Mandarin originating in the north and Cantonese in the far south. It's similar to how Moroccan Arabic is complete gobbledygook to me.

[1338 h4x0r]

It's the most successful conlang which isn't saying much. Most never catch on at all. The only other big one I can think of is Klingon, which is useless because it lacks a complete enough lexicon. Ditto for Quenya and Sindarin.

Also:

P(will have kids | speaks Klingon or any Elvish language) < P(will have kids) (in general)

I couldn't tell you the exact details but they are there. Compare Dutch and one of the more divergent varieties and you'll see.

There are probably dialects of German more distinct from the standard than Dutch and Flemish are.

Yes, Cantonese and Mandarin differ enough to be considered different languages. It makes sense since they're on opposite ends of the dialect continuum, Mandarin originating in the north and Cantonese in the far south.

Cantopop sounds a LOT like Thai music.

[Iskandar]

Also:

P(will have kids | speaks Klingon or any Elvish language) < P(will have kids) (in general)Yet there have been attempts to raise children as Klingon speakers. They failed, of course, as soon as the child realized Klingon was completely useless. Same for people who have tried to raise their kids as Latin speakers. If kids aren't exposed to opportunities they won't use a language. It's that same.
There are probably dialects of German more distinct from the standard than Dutch and Flemish are.Probably. Given also that Dutch was once considered a German dialect, as well as Yiddish and Lëtzebuergesch. Afrikaans was considered a Dutch dialect up until the 20th century. Maybe the same will be true for Flemish some day.
Cantopop sounds a LOT like Thai music.Not surprising given they're close enough to form a Sprachbund. Chinese influence is probably what accounts for these languages being tonal in the first place. See Vietnamese.

Incidentally, I found this amazing Norewgian word: traktorlesbe. Tractor lesbian, often referring to butch woman wearing manly working clothes. Also bajspackare as a Swedish calque on fudgepacker.

Don't ask.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yet there have been attempts to raise children as Klingon speakers. They failed, of course, as soon as the child realized Klingon was completely useless. Same for people who have tried to raise their kids as Latin speakers. If kids aren't exposed to opportunities they won't use a language. It's that same.

How do Klingon speakers have children? Artificial insemination?

Not surprising given they're close enough to form a Sprachbund. Chinese influence is probably what accounts for these languages being tonal in the first place. See Vietnamese.

All of these peoples migrated out of southern China a long time ago.

Also bajspackare as a Swedish calque on fudgepacker.

Don't ask.

'bajs' means 'poo-poo'.

[Mr. Ron]

Incidentally, I found this amazing Norewgian word: traktorlesbe. Tractor lesbian, often referring to butch woman wearing manly working clothes. Also bajspackare as a Swedish calque on fudgepacker.

Don't ask.
saved

[1338 h4x0r]

Arnold Schwarzenegger is in fact a traktorlesbe

[Mr. Ron]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQGWm4VMKI

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd4PI1kbINI

[Mr. Ron]

lol

[1338 h4x0r]

I love how Sam is always so blunt

"YOU MADE ME DO THIS!"

[Iskandar]

How do Klingon speakers have children? Artificial insemination?Nerds aren't doomed to loneliness. They have other nerds. The same goes for fat people and ugly people.
All of these peoples migrated out of southern China a long time ago.Did they? The Vietnamese language isn't related to Chinese, nor is Lao or Thai. Burmese is only distantly. Not that language is the only determinant of a relation. What archeological and/or genetic evidence is there for this? I'm honestly curious because I don't know a ton about Asia.

[1338 h4x0r]

Did they? The Vietnamese language isn't related to Chinese, nor is Lao or Thai. Burmese is only distantly.

In the sense that they are in different families, they're not related. All of them are not Sino-Tibetan anything

Not that language is the only determinant of a relation. What archeological and/or genetic evidence is there for this? I'm honestly curious because I don't know a ton about Asia.

I don't know what evidence there is. All I know is that historical accounts all say these groups (at least Thai, Lao, and Vietnamese) migrated from southern China in prehistoric times, which seems reasonable because no one else who was in that area has that kind of boner-inducing phenotype.

[Iskandar]

In the sense that they are in different families, they're not related. All of them are not Sino-Tibetan anythingThat's what determines relation. English is demonstrably related to German, so they're both Germanic languages and descend from a common parent language. English can also be shown to be related to French, Russian and more distantly Farsi and Hindu. But it can't be related to Chinese because there aren't regular correspondences.

In the case of Vietnamese, Thai, Korean etc. what you have is a heavy Sinitic influence. They have many Chinese loanwords and features like tone, but that's not the same as relation. Check out East Asian Sprachbund.
I don't know what evidence there is. All I know is that historical accounts all say these groups (at least Thai, Lao, and Vietnamese) migrated from southern China in prehistoric times, which seems reasonable because no one else who was in that area has that kind of boner-inducing phenotype.I wouldn't trust ancient historical sources tbh.

[1338 h4x0r]

In the case of Vietnamese, Thai, Korean etc. what you have is a heavy Sinitic influence. They have many Chinese loanwords and features like tone, but that's not the same as relation. Check out East Asian Sprachbund.
I wouldn't trust ancient historical sources tbh.

Vietnamese and Korean have heavy Sinitic influences; Thai does not, at least not relatively speaking. Pali and Sanskrit are the major superstrata in history. To a lesser extent, English is now, at least in the vernacular.

Tone came before historical Sinitic impact, i.e., from the presence of actual bigass kingdoms. btw Korean is not tonal

Also these were not ancient historical sources, and they're confirmed by the fact that a number of these ethnic groups are still living in China.

[Mr. Ron]

just watched that haskell vid, it caused my cranium to explode.

[1338 h4x0r]

How the **** did you find my account?

[Mr. Ron]

the obvious username in the comments of the vid you posted of the pizza bagels

lol

[1338 h4x0r]

What makes you believe I would have a username like 'odenskrigare'?

[gregulus]

Calculus is quite beautiful.

You're not kidding.

[1338 h4x0r]

I was looking at myself in the mirror and I just noticed I have ... a beautiful penis

[BridgeToSolace]

No doubt learning about calculus, statistics, and data structures, etc. will influence thoughts and behaviors usefully, even if not using that knowledge directly. The same can be said of economics, history, etc. Economics in particular is very awesome in that respect.

Just to support this, a friend of mine who struggled but succeeded through calculus ended up using the phrase "In terms of" all the time.

"Is ____ a good idea?"

"In terms of ____? Not really"

It definitely colored his thought processes, or at the very least the way he articulated them.

Not that I enjoy calculus, but I know why I'm taking it and I understand the value. I just find it boring and difficult (I'm a liberal arts student at heart)

[Iskandar]

Tone came before historical Sinitic impactI seriously doubt that given that Chinese is by far the biggest language in the region and it developed tones itself less than two millennia ago. Old Chinese did not have tones. Neither did older forms of Tibetan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonogenesis#Origin_of_tone
btw Korean is not tonalIt used to be. Some dialects retain vestiges of this system in the form of pitch accent. Japanese has pitch accent too.

[1338 h4x0r]

I seriously doubt that given that Chinese is by far the biggest language in the region

Which region?

[Iskandar]

Which region?East Asia and historically Southeast Asia.

[beso negro]

don't worry ron fp is strictly for nerds it has no application in industry

/attempt to further derail thread

[1338 h4x0r]

don't worry ron fp is strictly for nerds it has no application in industry

That's not strictly true. I realized that it is, however, more academic masturbation than anything else.

It felt so good to have the onus of "I have to learn Haskell or I am not complete" lifted from my shoulders. In truth, almost no one in industry cares, and it doesn't even give you much of a competitive advantage when you consider that there are too few people using Haskell and that you have to bend over backwards to get it to do anything normal.