I can't wait for Mugabe's assasination [Let's discuss Central/Eastern Africa]

[Aaron]

Someone do it please.

Question for you all: What does the international community need to realistically do to change the problems that are occurring?

[siva_chair]

Hire Blackwater. I'm sure they have some people working for them that are more than capable of assassinating the prick. :p

[mph4ever]

elect an african american to the white house. oh, wait, they've done that. problem solved

[Iskandar]

More likely he'll die of natural causes first.

[TheDarkHorse]

Someone do it please.

Question for you all: What does the international community need to realistically do to change the problems that are occurring?

are you serious?

You must be kidding if you think a single leader like Mugabee is the root of the problems in African countries. This isn't the West we're talking about now.

To answer your questions, the international community needs to look past the leaders and look to the people. The IMF and other organizations have done nothing but perpetuate the mess that is most developing nations. I hear China is beginning to invest in developing nations in Africa. Thats going to be a plus if the people aren't exploited.

[Iskandar]

Mugabe is far from the only bad leader in the region but he is definitely one of the worst. To say he has only exacerbated Zimbabwe's problems is an understatement at the least.

I'm wary of China's involvement in Africa. It has long been recognized that they are indirectly supporting the genocide in Darfur by buying Sudanese oil.

[Aaron]

are you serious?

You must be kidding if you think a single leader like Mugabee is the root of the problems in African countries. This isn't the West we're talking about now.
I think he's the root of the current main problems in Eastern Africa, yes. Him and the water contamination of Lake Victoria. Notice the thread title?

[Iskandar]

Mugabe is more of a problem to Zimbabwe itself. Though he hasn't done much for stability in the region either.

[Aaron]

Tanzania and Zimbabwe's economies are intrinsicly linked, and if there's no stable economy on the water [Lake Victoria] at that end it effects trade and transportation into Central Africa. If the mining companies weren't in that area there'd be no infrastructure at this point.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Mugabe is more of a problem to Zimbabwe itself. Though he hasn't done much for stability in the region either.Plus he sent troops into the DRC, though pretty much every one of Congo's neighbours was involved in that catastrophe, so Robert's not alone in destabilising the region.

[TheDarkHorse]

Mugabe is far from the only bad leader in the region but he is definitely one of the worst. To say he has only exacerbated Zimbabwe's problems is an understatement at the least.

Zimbabwe, unlike Western nations, will not convert overnight with the changing of leadership, provided the leader coming in is a true reformer, which is highly unlikely. If Mugabe's assassinated, expect another corrupt leader, or a bloody coup.

And to clear this up, he is much to blame, but I also blame sanctions. Sanctions are part of the problem, not the solution, and they punish people, not the leaders who don't care about the people anyways.



I'm wary of China's involvement in Africa. It has long been recognized that they are indirectly supporting the genocide in Darfur by buying Sudanese oil.
you should really look at what else they're doing

and please don't tell me you'd like to see the IMF in there either.

I think he's the root of the current main problems in Eastern Africa, yes. Him and the water contamination of Lake Victoria. Notice the thread title?
are you for real? At least before I write a scathing critique of your logic

[Iskandar]

Zimbabwe, unlike Western nations, will not convert overnight with the changing of leadership, provided the leader coming in is a true reformer, which is highly unlikely. If Mugabe's assassinated, expect another corrupt leader, or a bloody coup.Well, Tsvangirai won the election despite intimidation and attempts at rigging, and he was made prime minister in a power-sharing deal. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
And to clear this up, he is much to blame, but I also blame sanctions. Sanctions are part of the problem, not the solution, and they punish people, not the leaders who don't care about the people anyways.Sanctions are generally ineffective. They did nothing for Iraq but starve people, and haven't made for any progress in Cuba. They are enacted because people feel there is no other option. What else can you do but invade?
you should really look at what else they're doing

and please don't tell me you'd like to see the IMF in there either.I don't know what else they're doing except for interfering in Darfur. I admit I'm not really up to speed on Africa politics though.

I have my own issues with the IMF.

[Aaron]

are you for real? At least before I write a scathing critique of your logic
Yes. Go ahead; scathe away. I fear your scathing critique.

[Der Übermensch]

Hire Blackwater. I'm sure they have some people working for them that are more than capable of assassinating the prick. :p

Executive Outcomes is a better choice for African work I think. Pity they folded :(

[TheDarkHorse]

Yes. Go ahead; scathe away. I fear your scathing critique.

you're wrong

[Iskandar]

So it's official: ZANU-PF (the ruling party) and the opposition are going to share power.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/30/zimbabwe-government.html

Ideally Mugabe would be kicked out and Tsvangirai would take his rightful place as president, but seriously: Inflation at 231 million percent? 94% unemployment? These are the first priorities. At least they can end the political deadlock and try to get something done about the crushing economic problems.

[Aaron]

I guess with them now using external currencies it'll improve as people will actually be able to be paid, and spend their money. I think the unemployment figure is skewed due to the currency being so ****ed previously; I expect a lot of work was being done for non-money based reward, ie. food.

[Iskandar]

They've pretty much abandoned their own currency as it became worthless long ago. Apparently the South African rand is widely used.

[Aaron]

Yeah that'd correlate with what I've heard from people in Tanzania.

[VomitStainedCretin]

They've pretty much abandoned their own currency as it became worthless long ago. Apparently the South African rand is widely used.Well a third of Zimbabweans live or work in RSA, so it makes sense they don't have to change their earnings into wortless Z$s that'll depreciate overnight.

[Iskandar]

Have they always worked there, or is it a recent thing due to the total collapse of Zimbabwe's economy?

[Already_Taken]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7864604.stm

Africa only really needs 1 thread I guess.

soo.. the United States of Africa. a possible reality or another dream? good thing? bad thing?

personally I think it would be cool to see Africa Unite. (hehehe)

[Iskandar]

We already have an African Union. I think that's about as far as pan-Africanism is going to take us for now. The likes of Qaddhafi once had big plans for pan-Arabism but it never came to anything.

Plus he'll be dead soon. Hopefully.

[Already_Taken]

no offense, but you should read the article

[Iskandar]

I did...?
But an expert on the African Union called the vision of the United States of Africa a "ludicrous fantasy on the part of [Col] Gaddafi."

Kathryn Sturman at the South African Institute of International Affairs said many African leaders would not be prepared to give up their national sovereignty to join the proposed single-state federation proposed by the Libyan leader.

Ms Sturman said the chair of the group does not have any singular decision-making power, and cannot push through any changes without the consensus of the other leaders.

[Already_Taken]

yeah it also said they're going to vote in july and if a majority is for it then they will proceed. i just don't feel like many african countries have anything to lose.

[mph4ever]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7864604.stm

Africa only really needs 1 thread I guess.

soo.. the United States of Africa. a possible reality or another dream? good thing? bad thing?

personally I think it would be cool to see Africa Unite. (hehehe)

i think it would be a cool union. africa has lots of natural resources and would do well to exploit them for the good of everyone.

the chinese will never have anyones interest at heart except their own

[Iskandar]

I don't get what Qadhafi is proposing though. How will this differ substantially from the African Union? How does he plan to unite Africa's diverse interests?
the chinese will never have anyones interest at heart except their ownMake that any foreign country with an interest in Africa.

[mph4ever]

I don't get what Qadhafi is proposing though. How will this differ substantially from the African Union? How does he plan to unite Africa's diverse interests?
Make that any foreign country with an interest in Africa.

do you think he has a plan or is he just showboating for the benefit of his profile at home?

his track record suggests that he knows how to use a countries resources to help its people. education, healthcare and forrestry all improved as a result of his revolution. maybe he has a similar hope for other nations in africa

i am not sure if his recent reintroduction to the fold is symbolic or shambolic

[Iskandar]

Showboating. What he accomplished in Libya couldn't be done in other places which don't have massive oil reserves. He knows he's near the end of his reign (he's 66 years old) so he's trying to go out with a bang.

[mph4ever]

Showboating. What he accomplished in Libya couldn't be done in other places which don't have massive oil reserves. He knows he's near the end of his reign (he's 66 years old) so he's trying to go out with a bang.


k, hard to believe he is only 66. he does like his pomp and ceremony though and who would blame him when he has steered his country through tough times

[1338 h4x0r]

I saw an op-ed by Qaddafi in the New York Times. Imagine that in 80's

[Already_Taken]

iskander, why are you anxiously awaiting this guy's death? you realize africa is completely different from here, and even though he might not agree with you, there are millions of africans who probably wouldn't mind being able to eat twice a day. if he is what it takes to see the unification of all rasta man, then so be it!

sorry i just like how that bob marley song fits in this.

you think oil is africa's only resource???

[Iskandar]

I was wrong about his age. But 66 is getting up there and he's been in power for decades. For all his faults he has undoubted helping modernize Libya's economy, but it's time for a change.

Africa's greatest resource in the future will undoubtedly be its people.

[mph4ever]

someone needs to arrest the decline of africa fast before the planet loses one of its greatest futures. the west can't keep the boot on the back of their necks much longer and not expect them to implode. charity is fading in the midst of western crisis and arab greed

[Already_Taken]

Africa's greatest resource in the future will undoubtedly be its people.

nevermind the diamonds, gold, copper, bauxite, coltan, oil, natural gas, timber and coal they have.

[Iskandar]

nevermind the diamonds, gold, copper, bauxite, coltan, oil, natural gas, timber and coal they have.They need people to work in those industries. They lack the skills and education.

[mph4ever]

They need people to work in those industries. They lack the skills and education.

they lack the respect of others

[Iskandar]

People in Africa don't respect each other? That's a little harsh.

[mph4ever]

People in Africa don't respect each other? That's a little harsh.

i was referring more to non africans respect for africans

but since you raise it then, maybe, sure some of them might respect each other wthin their own politie. but outside of these traditional lines then they are tribal. country borders stand for little

[Iskandar]

Yes, many of the current problems with Africa have to do with that. Africa's modern states are products of colonial holdings and often have little to do with the people living in them. They have to try to forge some semblance of national unity out of a variety of disparate groups.

[1338 h4x0r]

nevermind the diamonds, gold, copper, bauxite, coltan, oil, natural gas, timber and coal they have.

This abundance of raw materials mainly ensures that people will come in there, extract them and leave without leaving any added value in the continent.

[mph4ever]

Yes, many of the current problems with Africa have to do with that. Africa's modern states are products of colonial holdings and often have little to do with the people living in them. They have to try to forge some semblance of national unity out of a variety of disparate groups.

as soon as whitey tried to turn 20k tribes into 50 countries then africa was lost. i have no idea how that can be turned around

[Iskandar]

When people value each other more than their tribal connections, I guess.

[Already_Taken]

This abundance of raw materials mainly ensures that people will come in there, extract them and leave without leaving any added value in the continent.

okay but it also ensures that with proper infrastructure and leadership the african people themselves could harness the natural resources they have and become a productive country.

[Iskandar]

And most African countries don't have good leadership.

[Already_Taken]

which is the significance of this guy wanting to create the united states of africa.

[Iskandar]

I don't see what good that would do though. It would have same problems as each individual country only on a larger scale.

[mph4ever]

which is the significance of this guy wanting to create the united states of africa.

the us of a. i like the sound of that. sort just rolls off you tongue. i wonder have the cia got to him and given him happy jabs

[Already_Taken]

I don't see what good that would do though. It would have same problems as each individual country only on a larger scale.

okay but not if they had a leader who united the people under a cause. why are you so faithless in the african people? you seem to think that they will never work and don't want to live a better life. of course they do they just have no channels through which to do it.

[mph4ever]

When people value each other more than their tribal connections, I guess.

hard to see how that can happen. along with all the other challenges, it needs the west to stay out of it

[Iskandar]

okay but not if they had a leader who united the people under a cause. why are you so faithless in the african people? you seem to think that they will never work and don't want to live a better life. of course they do they just have no channels through which to do it.I don't think you can unite an entire continent, much less the most diverse continent on Earth. I'm just skeptical about the whole thing. Pan-Arabism and pan-Latinism had high aspirations but they didn't accomplish much.

[Already_Taken]

I don't think you can unite an entire continent, much less the most diverse continent on Earth. I'm just skeptical about the whole thing. Pan-Arabism and pan-Latinism had high aspirations but they didn't accomplish much.

i'll go out on a limb and say north america and asia are both more diverse. then i'll also say that if you have enough hungry people, and you give them work to do so they can feed themselves and their families, they will do it.

[Iskandar]

North America? What?

Anyway I don't see what pan-Africanism has to do with getting people to work. The first priority is getting humanitarian aid to the area, developing education and getting rid of the dictators who are mismanaging their economies.

[mph4ever]

education, hmmmmm. only if they can pay and let the free market take care of the quality

[Iskandar]

What about it? Africa needs it.

[Already_Taken]

North America? What?

Anyway I don't see what pan-Africanism has to do with getting people to work. The first priority is getting humanitarian aid to the area, developing education and getting rid of the dictators who are mismanaging their economies.

find 50 china towns in africa and i'll be convinced.

humanitarian aid?????

feed a man a fish, feed him for a day. teach a man to fish, feed him for a life.

come on dude

[mph4ever]

What about it? Africa needs it.

i know it does. compulsory education for kids to a certain level could help undo lots of social issues

[Iskandar]

find 50 china towns in africa and i'll be convinced.Lol, you don't get it. North America is a white majority with immigrant populations. Africa is a veritable melting pot of ethnicities and nationalities. This is a place where it's not unusual for a country to have six different official languages. Just because they're all black doesn't mean they're all the same.
humanitarian aid?????

feed a man a fish, feed him for a day. teach a man to fish, feed him for a life.

come on dudeMore like keep a man alive so you can teach him to fish. I don't know why people hate aid so much when Africans need it so badly.

[Already_Taken]

yeah and because north america is a white majority we're all the same. nevermind mexico or central america. or canada. or the divisions of race and class in the USA.

we dont hate aid, it's because they've been getting aid for years and they're in the same position or worse. they need to become self sufficient because obviously what we're doing already isn't helping.

[1338 h4x0r]

find 50 china towns in africa and i'll be convinced

http://www.gov.cn/misc/2006-01/12/content_156490.htm

They need some place to put em all

[Iskandar]

we dont hate aid, it's because they've been getting aid for years and they're in the same position or worse. they need to become self sufficient because obviously what we're doing already isn't helping.They do. But first they need to survive. Aid is a short-term action within the long-term goal of creating developed economies in Africa.

[mph4ever]

http://www.gov.cn/misc/2006-01/12/content_156490.htm

They need some place to put em all


hoisinsraum

[Already_Taken]

They do. But first they need to survive. Aid is a short-term action within the long-term goal of creating developed economies in Africa.

exactly! a long term goal, like this libyan fool wants to form a long term goal of Africa united. 2nd time this circle's come around now.

[Iskandar]

But the United States of Africa isn't necessary for development. It might help, if it were workable. Then again it might not.

[1338 h4x0r]

hoisinsraum

Auf das chineschische Volk SIEG HEIL!

But the United States of Africa isn't necessary for development. It might help, if it were workable. Then again it might not.

'Peer review' by African governments has been effective in the past

[mph4ever]

Auf das chineschische Volk SIEG HEIL!

lol, btw, can anything be said in jest to you without getting a Hitlergruß in return?

[1338 h4x0r]

Heil Heils

'Metaheiling', that's a new word of mine

[Iskandar]

'Peer review' by African governments has been effective in the pastWhat do you mean? Part of the problem in Zimbabwe is that Mugabe's neighbours are trying to appease him. Thabo Mbeki wouldn't stand up to him and it cost his political career.

[1338 h4x0r]

I said "has been effective" not "has always been effective"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Peer_Review_Mechanism

[VomitStainedCretin]

I don't think you can unite an entire continent, much less the most diverse continent on Earth. I'm just skeptical about the whole thing. Pan-Arabism and pan-Latinism had high aspirations but they didn't accomplish much.Pan-Arabism has failed to unite a people who for much of the last 1300 years or so were under the same rulers, mostly shared the same religion, largely similar culture and spoke dialects of the same language. Africa is a vast milieau of cultures, religions and language that have never been under unified under one rule. If Pan-Arabism has failed, Pan-Africanism has no chance.

[Iskandar]

Exactly.

I mean, pan-Arabism had lots of support among intellectuals and politicians. There were just insurmountable political realities that prevented it from working. I suspect it would be the same only worse for pan-Africanism. It's not that the nations of Africa share similar experiences in being post-colonial and developing nations, it's that their differences are greater than their commonalities. This isn't a bad thing.