Yet another police shooting

[GreyHam]

caught quite nastily on camera

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/15/oscar-grant-shooting-arrest

Police in the Californian city of Oakland have arrested a former officer in connection with the killing of an unarmed man on New Year's Day.

Johannes Mehserle, 27, was taken into custody last night as part of the investigation into the controversial shooting of Oscar Grant earlier this month.

The 22-year-old victim was killed after transport police intervened to stop a fight on a train from San Francisco to Oakland in the early hours of 1 January.

The manner of his death has sparked protests and rioting. Footage filmed by passengers on the train at Fruitvale station appeared to show Grant sitting calmly on the platform shortly before the scuffle that left him dead.

The films – many of which have been placed on YouTube and other video-sharing websites – show Grant being forced to lie face down on the floor before a brief struggle in which Mehserle draws his weapon and shoots once into Grant's back.

Mehserle had been a police officer for Bart – the Bay Area Rapid Transit rail system linking San Francisco, Oakland and other cities in the region – for two years. He refused to speak to investigators and last week resigned.

The killing of Grant, who was black, by a white police officer has increased racial tensions in the already troubled city of Oakland. Riots have caused hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage.

Some have likened the incident to the beating of Rodney King in Los Angeles in 1991, which ended in widespread rioting after the police officers were cleared of using excessive force.

"Over the decades thousands of people, particularly blacks and other non-whites, have complained about police abuse – but until the King beating video, most police abuse charges were dismissed," said Harrison Chastang, a columnist for San Francisco-based website BeyondChron.

"The cell phone video recorded by Bart rider Katrina Vargas shows that Grant was unarmed, and that he apparently was not acting in a manner that would compel an officer to consider using a firearm."

On Monday, the Bart police chief, Gary Gee, said he had passed the results of a preliminary investigation to Oakland officials.

"I'm not able to say whether there's enough for the district attorney to file criminal charges," he said. "This is a continuing investigation."

Oakland, with a population of 400,000, lies a few miles from San Francisco and San Jose, but its high levels of poverty, crime and unemployment are a marked contrast from its prosperous neighbours. While the cities that run in a string along Silicon Valley are among America's richest, Oakland was placed fifth in a Congressional Quarterly Press list of America's most dangerous cities.

unsurprisingly, given that this is very much caught on camera, the only issue is - was this a thug with a badge and a gun, or someone overstressed and under trained who made a big, big ****up

link to vid on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxBg5Jxp7c

[DBoons Ghost]

So what's the issue?

The cop has been arrested regardless of how he acted he murdered someone and now he's in jail awaiting whatever his fate may be.

The idiots still rioted and destroyed their already ghetto filled slum even more. Which is retarded but at least they had their fun destroying their own community.

Cops are human and make mistakes just like everyone else. I am confused at this one. He just pulled out his gun and shot the dude in cold blood right in his back. Either way, the cop is in jail and hopefully will be punished and do time for murdering an innocent civilian.

If the cop who shot him was black there'd be no issue. Since the cop is white, it's racial.

Kinda funny.

[Smell The Cheese]

It would be racial if the cop was black and shot the white guy as well.

[siva_chair]

Lol white people don't get arrested what are you talking about?

:p

[Smell The Cheese]

Thats not what I mean, black people can be just as racist as white people.

[siva_chair]

I know what you meant. I was just being facetious.

[Smell The Cheese]

Well it's true, I have no time for black people if they are going to be racist.

[mph4ever]

racism was created by white people

[DBoons Ghost]

racism was created by white people

Even though white people are racist towards each other too?

:thumb:

[Smell The Cheese]

racism was created by white people

The origins are irrelevant, fact is the problem is here now and we have to deal with it. Deepseated hatred exists on both sides and this is a wedge that is never going to be eradicated. It's an ambiguous, tricky, impossible mind****.

[siva_chair]

Racism was created by primates.

[The Human Language]

racism was created by white people

No.

Racism stems from prejudice which has existed in every haphazard tribe on the planet towards it's antagonist enemies for centuries.

[DBoons Ghost]

I think mph was being sarcastic before everyone attacks him. There will be a lot of sarcasm in this thread before it runs it's course.

[mph4ever]

Even though white people are racist towards each other too?

:thumb:

sure, we can be racist towards each other. look at the way we treat australians and finish people

[siva_chair]

sure, we can be racist towards each other. look at the way we treat australians and finish people

I don't think those qualify as races, but I may be wrong....

[mph4ever]

I don't think those qualify as races, but I may be wrong....

not sure either. i guess its whether or not you consider race to be defined by heritable traits or social constructs.

calling someone white is never racist, calling them black nearly always attracts the label. calling someone paddy git is not racist, nor is aussie git, calling some paki git is.

as someone suggested, its head wreck

[Light Fantastic]

calling some paki git is.depends on the person and intent

[Mr. Ron]

I saw the video, and I think its rather obvious that it was an accident.

The rioting is ridiculous, btw. Lets destroy our own city and use violence to say violence is wrong LOlolOLOL!

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

guyz guyz they told me in anthro 101 that race doesnt exist

[DBoons Ghost]

I saw the video, and I think its rather obvious that it was an accident.

The rioting is ridiculous, btw. Lets destroy our own city and use violence to say violence is wrong LOlolOLOL!

I would agree it looks accidental but why even draw your weapon to begin with?

That's the baffling part.

[JohnXDoe]

I would agree it looks accidental but why even draw your weapon to begin with?

That's the baffling part.

he claims he was reaching for his taser and grabbed his gun by accident. the video also shows him grasping for the gun a few times before he finally unsnaps the holster, pulls the weapon, and pulls the trigger

thats a lot of steps to take for an accident. and in no way does a gun feel like a taser in your hands, much less pulling the trigger

[Mr. Ron]

a lot of tasers are shaped like handguns


Plus all the confusion and adrenaline of the situation would make things tense.

[JohnXDoe]

well we will see. because reports were filed by the attending officers before any of them knew the ordeal had been video taped

and certainly any trained officer should know the difference between a gun and taser in the hand. and if they aren't sure they should make sure before discharging the weapon

[Det_Nosnip]

I don't think those qualify as races, but I may be wrong....

As much as blacks and latinos count as seperate races. The proper term is "ethnicity," for which there are thousands, including a substantial amount of different "white" ethnicities with distinct features and radically different cultures. The whole concept of unified "whiteness" is a social fabrication created in large part by the screwball concept of an American "melting pot." The ironic thing is that Western Europeans are genetically closer to Indians than they are to many people with "white" skin because of the Indo-European migrations yet most people of Western European descent would consider Greeks, Eastern Europeans, etc to be more like them because of their skin tone.

[/side rant]

[Light Fantastic]

As much as blacks and latinos count as seperate races. no 

[mph4ever]

depends on the person and intent


not to the person being called paki git it doesn't

[mattspurplepen]

So what's the issue?

The cop has been arrested regardless of how he acted he murdered someone and now he's in jail awaiting whatever his fate may be.

The idiots still rioted and destroyed their already ghetto filled slum even more. Which is retarded but at least they had their fun destroying their own community.

Cops are human and make mistakes just like everyone else. I am confused at this one. He just pulled out his gun and shot the dude in cold blood right in his back. Either way, the cop is in jail and hopefully will be punished and do time for murdering an innocent civilian.

If the cop who shot him was black there'd be no issue. Since the cop is white, it's racial.

Kinda funny.
I completely agree.
What ****ing morons destroy their own community and loot black businesses along with everything else?
MAybe they should have protested at the police station or thought about their actions.
I despise riots and massive groups of ignorant people.
Obviously this shooting was wrong, but destroying your town wont help anyone.

[Mr. Ron]

well we will see. because reports were filed by the attending officers before any of them knew the ordeal had been video taped

and certainly any trained officer should know the difference between a gun and taser in the hand. and if they aren't sure they should make sure before discharging the weapon
who says he discharged it intentionally?

[Murdererer]

what the pig did was wrong; but the kid was black so that makes it right

[Iscariot]

who says he discharged it intentionally?

Are you seriously vouching for a murderer just because he's a cop?

[Iscariot]

Well I didn't say that necessarily, but the only thing I find more baffling than the shooting itself is why Ron insists that it must have been an accident.

And thanks.

[Murdererer]

all of rons posts are completely gay he posts like an 80 yr old woman

[Light Fantastic]

not to the person being called paki git it doesn't

so? thats irrelevant to it being racist

[Light Fantastic]

itt people who think someone could be stupid enough to murder someone in front of a huge crowd of people

[Murdererer]

cops are stupid just like you

[Iscariot]

itt people who think someone could be stupid enough to murder someone in front of a huge crowd of people

Yeah, that sort of thing never happens. You're absolutely right.

[DBoons Ghost]

When most people make a mistake at work, it costs money.

When a cop, fireman or soldier make a mistake at work, people die.

A lot of us don't have all the facts. We have a tidbit of video from a chick on the train. We need the facts. They will come.

The cop made a mistake and killed someone. There was some chaos beforehand and he might have been shitting pickles the whole time.

It sucks. My whole beef is the rioting packs of monkeys.

[Iscariot]

I agree the riots are ridiculous and unnecessary, but that tidbit of video shows the officer drawing his firearm without any need to, taking aim over the course of a few seconds, and shooting this guy in the back at point blank range. You'd have to spin one hell of a yarn to paint that as an accident.

[GreyHam]

yea, i just watche dit over a few more times

there is no reason, no reason in hell, for him to pull anything on that guy. resisting he may have been, but he was certainly unarmed. Saying he was pulling a taser is bull - is tasering a grounded suspect something thats actually allowed?

most of the people there were compliant. im not really sure what the 'escalated situation' was supposed to really be. the people on the train were baying at the police sure, but thats hardly threatening

emergency services personel have the huge responsibility that if they make mistakes, people die. doctors making mistakes can kill patients, and firemen being too slow may allow someone to asphixiate. but its the police who carry the guns, and as so many people have said, its the man with the gun thats the danger. he should never have pulled that gun, and to make such a poor judgement shows quite how poorly qualified that particular officer was to do his job
and yea, the rioting was stupid

[Light Fantastic]

him not following proper procedure doesnt mean shooting and killing him wasnt a mistake

[JohnXDoe3]

who says he discharged it intentionally?
intent will be determined by the law. idc if it was a complete "accident." it was negligent something or another

he pulled the trigger. he meant to do that. firearms don't discharge unless you squeeze the trigger intentionally. i can barely see the need for a taser in that situation, much less a gun. so a police officer needs to be careful per his training what weapon he is using. after all someone could die

can't just have cops running around killing people and then saying "well it was an unintentional accident." their was enough action taken by the officer to show intent for...something. he would seem grossly negligent at best. although i have not much idea of the law in these matters. thats just a seat of the pants assessment

it will be interesting to see what the police reports said. the ones written before they knew it was caught on video

imo the suspect was subdued and the officers had the situation somewhat in hand. one lone officer decided the next level of action / force needed to be taken. i don't think it did, much less shooting a guy in his back. we'll just have to wait and see what the court thinks

[Iscariot]

him not following proper procedure doesnt mean shooting and killing him wasnt a mistake

It was a mistake, but not an accident. It looks like he had every intention of pulling the trigger and then he went ahead and did it. It was a mistake as this has ruined his life, but it really does not seem to be an accidental shooting.

[Mr. Ron]

Are you seriously vouching for a murderer just because he's a cop?
we don't know all the facts yet, so why throw him to the lions right off the bat? Of course that man dying is a terrible thing, but whether the cop shot him intentionally or not is still up in the air.

[Arucard]

I'm ****ing glad we dont have the ridiculous gun laws that you idiots over the water have.

At least this way we don't get shot in the back by trigger happy racists.

[Light Fantastic]

It looks like he had every intention of pulling the triggerand how can you tell that from video shot from behind him and from some distance

I'm ****ing glad we dont have the ridiculous gun laws that you idiots over the water have.
what

police here have guns too retard

[Mr. Ron]

Well I didn't say that necessarily, but the only thing I find more baffling than the shooting itself is why Ron insists that it must have been an accident.

And thanks.
I'm not insisting. I'm simply saying it might have been an accident.

[Arucard]

Armed reponse units make up for about 0.2% of our police force 'retard.'

[Iscariot]

and how can you tell that from video shot from behind him and from some distance

The obvious sufficient amount of time between reaching for his firearm, drawing his firearm, taking enough time to actually see that he had not drawn his taser, aiming at the victim's back, and squeezing the trigger. Add to that the fact that it takes 4-5 lbs of pressure to squeeze the trigger on a Glock which, I'm assuming is what he's using as it's typically standard police issue, so a jittery flex of the finger won't discharge a round.

He had to be aware of what he was doing the entire time in order for this to have happened.

[Mr. Ron]

intent will be determined by the law. idc if it was a complete "accident." it was negligent something or another

he pulled the trigger. he meant to do that. firearms don't discharge unless you squeeze the trigger intentionally. i can barely see the need for a taser in that situation, much less a gun. so a police officer needs to be careful per his training what weapon he is using. after all someone could die

can't just have cops running around killing people and then saying "well it was an unintentional accident." their was enough action taken by the officer to show intent for...something. he would seem grossly negligent at best. although i have not much idea of the law in these matters. thats just a seat of the pants assessment

it will be interesting to see what the police reports said. the ones written before they knew it was caught on video

imo the suspect was subdued and the officers had the situation somewhat in hand. one lone officer decided the next level of action / force needed to be taken. i don't think it did, much less shooting a guy in his back. we'll just have to wait and see what the court thinks
well seeing as you have no experience with firearms in a high stress situation I don't see how you could not at least say that the trigger pull might have been an accident. If the trigger pull on their sidearm is light enough it wouldn't take much to fire it.

Its actually proper procedure to draw your weapon when in such a situation.


I'm ****ing glad we dont have the ridiculous gun laws that you idiots over the water have.

At least this way we don't get shot in the back by trigger happy racists.
so now he's a racist

lol nice jump in lolgic there.

[DBoons Ghost]

I agree the riots are ridiculous and unnecessary, but that tidbit of video shows the officer drawing his firearm without any need to, taking aim over the course of a few seconds, and shooting this guy in the back at point blank range. You'd have to spin one hell of a yarn to paint that as an accident.

He thought it was his tazer, not his handgun.

I aint taking sides nor defending. Just sayin.

[Light Fantastic]

Armed reponse units make up for about 0.2% of our police force 'retard.'um

arv officers arent the only ones with guns gg

[mph4ever]

so? thats irrelevant to it being racist
racism can have a victim and a perpetrator. they can both see it a racism

[GreyHam]

dont let this descend into a US gun law vs the world thread. theres been so many over the years, it really is dull

wether or not he killed him intentionally really isnt important if this incident was caused by not following proper procedure. pulling a gun out of a holster, pointing it at a man, and pulling the trigger, is not an accident. its a series of motions that really cannot be justified in this situation

i dont know how it is in the US, but i know UK tasers are very square and bright yellow. they look a bit like super soakers tbh. but even a child could tell the difference between that and a handgun

and dont glocks have that fancy double trigger safety catch thing that makes it quite difficult for an accidental discharge?

[DBoons Ghost]

I wonder how many of you have been in a high stress situation in which you are forced to very quickly make a decision when dealing with a platform full of potentially unruly young drunken men who outnumber you 10 to 1 in a shithole like Oakland.. Any of you ever been to Oakland?

Half you bitches aint never even been in a fist fight much less an all out brawl.

So much talkin' out the *** in this thread.

[Mr. Ron]

dont let this descend into a US gun law vs the world thread. theres been so many over the years, it really is dull

wether or not he killed him intentionally really isnt important if this incident was caused by not following proper procedure. pulling a gun out of a holster, pointing it at a man, and pulling the trigger, is not an accident. its a series of motions that really cannot be justified in this situation
It could be. Do you honestly think even the dumbest American cop would intentionally murder someone in public with dozens of people watching them, taking pictures and video? Nope.

[Iscariot]

well seeing as you have no experience with firearms in a high stress situation I don't see how you could not at least say that the trigger pull might have been an accident. If the trigger pull on their sidearm is light enough it wouldn't take much to fire it.

Its actually proper procedure to draw your weapon when in such a situation

That wasn't a high stress situation. The detainees were restrained and cooperative as can be verified by the witnesses to the shooting.

The victim was the only one not restrained and they were seemingly going to handcuff him when the officer shot him in the back. And I don't know what standard procedure is for the police in your neck of the woods, but between my law enforcement classes and seminars over the years I can say with confidence that when you have three officers detaining one suspect and he puts up a struggle because he's confused or agitated about the arrest, proper procedure dictates that you draw your taser (which is generally holstered on the opposite hip from your firearm), and you warn the suspect that if they don't stop struggling you'll zap them.

That situation never called for the use of a firearm.

[JohnXDoe]

well seeing as you have no experience with firearms in a high stress situation I don't see how you could not at least say that the trigger pull might have been an accident. If the trigger pull on their sidearm is light enough it wouldn't take much to fire it.

Its actually proper procedure to draw your weapon when in such a situation.

i thought it was only proper procedure to draw your weapon when you feel your life or the lives of others might be at risk? or risk of great bodily harm. why else would you draw a deadly weapon? maybe to stop a person from fleeing? but this didn't seem a situation for drawing weapons. a baton, maybe

high stress situation? a guy lying on his stomach surrounded by cops. and thats high stress? might need some new cops in Oakland if thats stress. i've been more threatened in street fights

the guy is guilty of something. if not, any cop can just pull his gun out from now on, kill someone and say "oh high stress accident"

i ain't biting. i mean the situation is pretty clear

[Light Fantastic]

racism can have a victim and a perpetrator. they can both see it a racismstill irrelevant

racism isnt subjective

[DBoons Ghost]

That wasn't a high stress situation. The detainees were restrained and cooperative as can be verified by the witnesses to the shooting.

The victim was the only one not restrained and they were seemingly going to handcuff him when the officer shot him in the back. And I don't know what standard procedure is for the police in your neck of the woods, but between my law enforcement classes and seminars over the years I can say with confidence that when you have three officers detaining one suspect and he puts up a struggle because he's confused or agitated about the arrest, proper procedure dictates that you draw your taser (which is generally holstered on the opposite hip from your firearm), and you warn the suspect that if they don't stop struggling you'll zap them.

That situation never called for the use of a firearm.

All this from a minute of video?

You are the worst sometimes.

You talkin' out your *** kiddo. Training is one thing. Putting it to use in the middle of what he might have deemed all hell breakin lose is another.

[Mr. Ron]

That wasn't a high stress situation. The detainees were restrained and cooperative as can be verified by the witnesses to the shooting.

The victim was the only one not restrained and they were seemingly going to handcuff him when the officer shot him in the back. And I don't know what standard procedure is for the police in your neck of the woods, but between my law enforcement classes and seminars over the years I can say with confidence that when you have three officers detaining one suspect and he puts up a struggle because he's confused or agitated about the arrest, proper procedure dictates that you draw your taser (which is generally holstered on the opposite hip from your firearm), and you warn the suspect that if they don't stop struggling you'll zap them.

That situation never called for the use of a firearm.
you really do not know that. Plus every individual reacts differently to such situations.

what law enforcement class have you taken?

[Iscariot]

All this from a minute of video?

You are the worst sometimes.

You talkin' out your *** kiddo.

You could just graciously bow out if you can't refute anything I have to say instead of trying to patronize me and making boring comments about me.

[DBoons Ghost]

You are making assumptions like crazy.

I aint gonna argue your opinion when there are no facts.

You are no more qualified then anyone else to draw conclusions as you have based on a few minutes of amateur video.

I will bow out and let you make yourself look like an idiot.

[JohnXDoe]

All this from a minute of video?

You are the worst sometimes.

You talkin' out your *** kiddo.
yeah all that from a minute of video

you don't need to see what happened "before" to SEE what happened

the 'ol "don't believe what you just saw" trick

because you didn't see the WHOLE thing :rolleyes:

which obviously had to end with gun fire as the tape clearly shows he had it coming. all lying on the ground like he was....an enormous threat!

[Mr. Ron]

i thought it was only proper procedure to draw your weapon when you feel your life or the lives of others might be at risk? or risk of great bodily harm. why else would you draw a deadly weapon? maybe to stop a person from fleeing? but this didn't seem a situation for drawing weapons. a baton, maybe

high stress situation? a guy lying on his stomach surrounded by cops. and thats high stress? might need some new cops in Oakland if thats stress. i've been more threatened in street fights

the guy is guilty of something. if not, any cop can just pull his gun out from now on, kill someone and say "oh high stress accident"

i ain't biting. i mean the situation is pretty clear
Oh come on. There's a clear difference between this and a cop getting his M4 from his trunk and chasing down blacks to put a few notches in his belt.


I don't think the situation is that clear. I really don't think a clean cop (from what I've read and seen on the news) would intentionally murder a person in front of dozens of witnesses. He wouldn't be that dumb.

[DBoons Ghost]

yeah all that from a minute of video

you don't need to see what happened "before" to SEE what happened

the 'ol "don't believe what you just saw" trick

because you didn't see the WHOLE thing :rolleyes:

which obviously had to end with gun fire as the tape clearly shows he had it coming. all lying on the ground like he was....an enormous threat!
I am not defending the cop.

I am not defending the struggling perp on the platform.

I am merely suggesting your biased opinions on what you think you might have seen and your assumptions about what was being said and done and all the before and after is totally wrong and premature.

[Iscariot]

you really do not know that. Plus every individual reacts differently to such situations.

Judging by the number of officers on the scene in the video and the fact that the train passengers were inside the train with the doors shut other than the few who had already stepped onto the platform, I wouldn't call that a high stress situation. What made it a high stress situation was the officer drawing his firearm and killing a suspect.

what law enforcement class have you taken?

I took two years of law enforcement classes where I learned everything from investigative procedures to police conduct and everything else you can think of. My teachers were awesome too. One of them was a retired officer who had spent three years in the Czech Republic training the local police.

[Mr. Ron]

Judging by the number of officers on the scene in the video and the fact that the train passengers were inside the train with the doors shut other than the few who had already stepped onto the platform, I wouldn't call that a high stress situation. What made it a high stress situation was the officer drawing his firearm and killing a suspect.



I took two years of law enforcement classes where I learned everything from investigative procedures to police conduct and everything else you can think of. My teachers were awesome too. One of them was a retired officer who had spent three years in the Czech Republic training the local police.
I'm going to believe you.


Either way this cop is going to be punished somehow. However, I just do not think we all can just jump on him before everything is considered.

[Iscariot]

I am not defending the cop.

I am not defending the struggling perp on the platform.

I am merely suggesting your biased opinions on what you think you might have seen and your assumptions about what was being said and done and all the before and after is totally wrong and premature.

Stop claiming to be unbiased and then calling everyone wrong when they have an opinion on this that doesn't favor the officer.

Seriously.

[JohnXDoe]

Oh come on. There's a clear difference between this and a cop getting his M4 from his trunk and chasing down blacks to put a few notches in his belt.


I don't think the situation is that clear. I really don't think a clean cop (from what I've read and seen on the news) would intentionally murder a person in front of dozens of witnesses. He wouldn't be that dumb.
i agree their is a clear difference. i'm not equating it with that

i'm saying if a cop makes this kind of "mistake" he goes to jail. simple as that. cops need to understand this better. we give them great responsibility and trust them with much in society. if one makes a mistake such as this, or it was an accident....where someone dies? he is guilty of something. negligent homicide? manslaughter? illegal use of force? negligent use of force? idk but if i were in his shoes i would expect to be charged with a crime. a person died. you just can't go "oops" and go back to your life the next day

not in this situation

intentional or not....he needs to pay a penalty. he recklessly took a life. you can see it for yourself. change the "reckless" to "careless" and its just as bad

[Iscariot]

I'm going to believe you.


Either way this cop is going to be punished somehow. However, I just do not think we all can just jump on him before everything is considered.

I'd love to be wrong, I really would. I'm just saying that what I saw in that video didn't look accidental. We'll see though.

[DBoons Ghost]

You should read the whole thread Jared. I mean come on.

It's clear this man will never serve the public again and he will hopefully go to jail. Nothing will justify the murder of this innocent young man.

I am just saying that cops are human and make mistakes, but unfortunately when they do people die. It sucks but **** happens.

Cut the guy some slack.

[Mr. Ron]

i agree their is a clear difference. i'm not equating it with that

i'm saying if a cop makes this kind of "mistake" he goes to jail. simple as that. cops need to understand this better. we give them great responsibility and trust them with much in society. if one makes a mistake such as this, or it was an accident....where someone dies? he is guilty of something. negligent homicide? manslaughter? illegal use of force? negligent use of force? idk but if i were in his shoes i would expect to be charged with a crime. a person died. you just can't go "oops" and go back to your life the next day

not in this situation

intentional or not....he needs to pay a penalty. he recklessly took a life. you can see it for yourself. change the "reckless" to "careless" and its just as bad
like I said, this guy is going to get punished whether he did ti intentionally or not. Thats just how it is.

[Iscariot]

You should read the whole thread Jared. I mean come on.

It's clear this man will never serve the public again and he will hopefully go to jail. Nothing will justify the murder of this innocent young man.

I am just saying that cops are human and make mistakes, but unfortunately when they do people die. It sucks but **** happens.

Cut the guy some slack.

- I have read the whole thread.

- Yes that much is obvious.

- This is where I have a problem with your viewpoint. Murders are committed every day by a wide variety of people. Some are crimes of passion, some are premeditated, some are high stress accidents. Would you say, "Cut the guy some slack" if it had been the kid that shot the police officer?

People have this obnoxious idea that police officers should be granted some additional leeway when they kill someone without just cause and provocation, simply because they're police officers and they have a stressful job.

He doesn't deserve to be cut any slack. Accident or no, he killed someone. He deserves whatever he gets.

[Light Fantastic]

i dont think he needs to pay a penalty for an honest mistake

a discharge perhaps

[GreyHam]

an honest mistake is buying gravy powder instead of gravy granules

shooting and killing an unarmed suspect as a direct result of drawing a firearm when it isnt needed is something much more severe. manslaughter i'd say

i know law enforcement is high stress, but personally i wouldnt feel safe if i knew that there were people walking around with guns who are liable to make such heinous mistakes

[Sleep]

It sucks but **** happens.

Cut the guy some slack.

are you aware this man is dead now

[Light Fantastic]

yeah, and?

[mph4ever]

still irrelevant

racism isnt subjective


so?

[Murdererer]

lol a cop in jail hes probably getting beat up like on family gay

[Aaron]

Why is someone being assaulted any reason to need a weapon, especially in that context. The cop should've just tackled him, and sat on him till he got him cuffed.

Most cops don't need to carry weapons; and because they are carrying them, they go to use it before the skills they actually need [ie physical restraint].

[DBoons Ghost]

are you aware this man is dead now


Lol...

:confused:

Am I suppose to care?

[Mr. Ron]

Why is someone being assaulted any reason to need a weapon, especially in that context. The cop should've just tackled him, and sat on him till he got him cuffed.

Most cops don't need to carry weapons; and because they are carrying them, they go to use it before the skills they actually need [ie physical restraint].
yeah but sometimes people need to be shot

[Aaron]

Why?

[Iscariot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEaX4ApC_EU

That's why.

[Mr. Ron]

Why?
people that are a immediate threat to those around them

[Iscariot]

people that are a immediate threat to those around them

That's a terrible way to judge justification in the use of a firearm.

[Aaron]

Well using that arguement someone else should've shot the cop.

[Mr. Ron]

That's a terrible way to judge justification in the use of a firearm.
i.e. someone else wielding a weapon.

[Aaron]

My point remains. A cop being inappropriate with a weapon deserves to be shot, if we follow your logic.

[Mr. Ron]

My point remains. A cop being inappropriate with a weapon deserves to be shot, if we follow your logic.
there's a difference between a cop that might have made a mistake and someone intentionally going out and killing people.

[Aaron]

No there's not really. The clothes you wear, or your occupation don't change your decision making ability. If anything, the cop has less of an excuse than an ordinary person with a licence for a weapon. You're either in the right or the wrong.

[Mr. Ron]

No there's not really. The clothes you wear, or your occupation don't change your decision making ability. If anything, the cop has less of an excuse than an ordinary person with a licence for a weapon. You're either in the right or the wrong.
yeah that cop is exactly like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold amirite

[Aaron]

I don't know who they are, but I'll assume they're convicted murderers.

To me manslaughter is black and white. It's either justified or not. Doesn't matter if it's done by someone as employment or not. The distinction between murder and manslaughter is different though.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't know who they are, but I'll assume they're convicted murderers.

To me manslaughter is black and white. It's either justified or not. Doesn't matter if it's done by someone as employment or not. The distinction between murder and manslaughter is different though.
lmao do you live under a rock?


There is plenty of Grey area in situations where people get killed. A cop that potentially kills someone by mistake is not as bad as someone who goes out looking for blood.

[Aaron]

No, I live in another country to you.

Look at it this way; I think there's no difference between a cop making a mistake and someone accidentally killing someone in a fight.

[Murdererer]

No, I live in another country to you.

Look at it this way; I think there's no difference between a cop making a mistake and someone accidentally killing someone in a fight.

it would be funny if a cop shot you after you surrendered layed on your stomach

[Iskandar]

That would make him a murdererer.

[Light Fantastic]

there's a difference between a cop that might have made a mistakeNo there's not really. The clothes you wear, or your occupation don't change your decision making ability.im sensing stupidity here

[DBoons Ghost]

There's more ignorance in this thread then most others.

I love how teenagers can put themselves in a career cops shoes in a matter of seconds. Not to mention working in a massive stinkhole like Oakland but of course that shouldn't affect your decision making abilities at all. He's a villian and a racist and a murderer! String him up! Hang him! Kill his children and eat em!

[mph4ever]

Well using that arguement someone else should've shot the cop.

pigs can do as they please

guys guilty as hell of murder. he resigned and the press are already carrying the headline "ex-pig charged"

[DBoons Ghost]

I am tracking another story about a cop killer in the Bronx who only got 45 years for killing a cop.

The cop (Russel Timoshenko) was white and the guy(s) who killed him were black. Anyone want to come to NYC and riot on behalf of this white cop?

No?

I didn't think so. Did anyone even hear of this story before I mention it? No.

No. Hypocrites.

[Light Fantastic]

black people dont understand mens rea

[mph4ever]

I am tracking another story about a cop killer in the Bronx who only got 45 years for killing a cop.

The cop (Russel Timoshenko) was white and the guy(s) who killed him were black. Anyone want to come to NYC and riot on behalf of this white cop?

No?

I didn't think so. Did anyone even hear of this story before I mention it? No.

No. Hypocrites.

i'd gladly come to new york and riot over black guys killing a white guy, but not a pig

[Iskandar]

Dude, what the hell?

[JohnXDoe]

There's more ignorance in this thread then most others.

I love how teenagers can put themselves in a career cops shoes in a matter of seconds. Not to mention working in a massive stinkhole like Oakland but of course that shouldn't affect your decision making abilities at all. He's a villian and a racist and a murderer! String him up! Hang him! Kill his children and eat em!
he has two years on the force

doesn't matter if it was an accident without malice, he should get the legal maximum of w/e he is charged with. i won't call him a murderer. i haven't enough knowledge of criminal law to say anything one way or another. but like anything else i say the punishment should fit the crime

[Light Fantastic]

ok the punishment should fit the crime i agree accidents shouldnt be punished criminally

[JohnXDoe]

too many steps were taken by the officer leading up to the shooting for this to be called an "accident." it was negligent at best and someone died so....he needs to be held accountable in a court of law imo

[DBoons Ghost]

i'd gladly come to new york and riot over black guys killing a white guy, but not a pig

That's some serious douchebaggery. I kinda understand, and if I was still a teenager full of piss and vinegar I would agree. Though, I have way too many friends that became police officers to agree with such sentiments. Plus, now that I have a family and am supposed to be a responsible adult, I need the cops to protect and serve us law abiding citizens.

[mph4ever]

Dude, what the hell?

in the same way as i would go to new york and riot over white guys killing a black guy. if they do it around the end of the january when the amebix gig is on and i can hang out at c-squat with my buddies then that would be even better

[Light Fantastic]

you cant be negligent if the event wasnt forseeable

him taking out his gun doesnt mean theres a risk of his gun going off and killing someone because hes in control of it and its not a random thing

the accident was the single point where he pulled the trigger, since all actions up to that point could be defended as reasonable, or at least not criminal

[DBoons Ghost]

he has two years on the force

doesn't matter if it was an accident without malice, he should get the legal maximum of w/e he is charged with. i won't call him a murderer. i haven't enough knowledge of criminal law to say anything one way or another. but like anything else i say the punishment should fit the crime

The charge was Murder, which carries a life sentence if convicted.

If and when the trial takes place, and it doesn't go the way the Oakland monkeys desire, they might destroy their community some more.

[JohnXDoe]

you cant be negligent if the event wasnt forseeable

him taking out his gun doesnt mean theres a risk of his gun going off and killing someone because hes in control of it and its not a random thing

the accident was the single point where he pulled the trigger, since all actions up to that point could be defended as reasonable, or at least not criminal
i'm not sure pulling a sidearm out in that situation is reasonable. the other officers didn't see a need for it, but he did. how would it seem if they all pulled their guns out? it would seem inappropriate. and so it does even more so for one of them to. because it wasn't necessary

the fact that he did and the gun "went off," even if i give him that much, it was still negligent somehow. otherwise what should it be? intent really can't be proved. we can't prove he pulled the trigger intentionally or didn't think he was holding his taser. however if it can be proven drawing your weapon and pointing it at the back of a suspect who is lying on his stomach and under control is negligent because the gun might go off, thats good enough imo. because it was very poor judgment to draw a sidearm in that situation. and even poorer judgment after he drew it as he put his finger on the trigger of a weapon his wasn't certain was a taser or gun

[Light Fantastic]

its pretty normal for one or two officers to have their weapons trained on a guy while multiple officers restrain him physically

even if he werent following correct police procedure that doesnt make him guilty of anything criminal anyway since he could (as a reasonable person subject to stress) have deemed it entirely necessary in a situation where he was under pressure

and saying he was negligent because the gun might go off is like saying i shouldnt drive because i might suffer a heart attack and veer off into some schoolchildren. you cant be negligent in law in a situation where a reasonable person would believe they have control

[spitfirejunky]

None of this proves the negative either though. He could have very well had an intent to kill. The prosecution will likely focus on this.

[Light Fantastic]

seems unlikely that he'd use the most public time of any arrest to do it

[Super Batman]

Watching the video....I have never been more furious at a crowd.

JESUS they pissed me off. Can't they just shut up? DAS WRONG DAGWG, DAS WRONG.

I honestly rarely get infuriated. This is a rare occasion, but this is ridiculous.

[Loser]

By some unusual logic here in this thread, I imagine people involved in car accidents should be tried for attempted murder.

[JohnXDoe3]

if they use poor judgment such as speeding, drinking and driving, running red lights, or driving recklessly they often are

[Aaron]

There's more ignorance in this thread then most others.

I love how teenagers can put themselves in a career cops shoes in a matter of seconds. Not to mention working in a massive stinkhole like Oakland but of course that shouldn't affect your decision making abilities at all. He's a villian and a racist and a murderer! String him up! Hang him! Kill his children and eat em!
I love how you make assumptions we're all teenagers, and talk about ignorance.

[DBoons Ghost]

I love how you make assumptions we're all teenagers, and talk about ignorance.

Well, they say assumption is the mother of all assholes.

I'm trying.

[mattspurplepen]

the cop might've just been super tired or something, i heard he had just had a baby with his wife, sometimes that means staying up pretty late.
So it could have been an accident, but he's still to blame at least for negligence because you definitely shouldn't be working (especially at a dangerous job) if you are that out of it.
The likelihood of him intentionally killing this guy is pretty slim from the videos.
he was looking at the dude afterwards like wtf did i just do?
that doesn't justify it, but i think he should deff do some time in jail for being incompetent at a job where you need to be on spot at all times.

[Aaron]

Are you serious? Next time I shoot someone point blank I'll use the "I was tired" excuse.

[DBoons Ghost]

The cop was charged with murder as it stands.

I dunno what degree but it's murder which means they think he consciously and purposely shot this man in cold blood.

We'll see how it turns out. Probably won't know more details for a while.

[mattspurplepen]

lol, well i think that is a possibility, have you ever stayed up all night for a night or two?
i usually can't function very well getting small amounts of sleep.

Tell me why this cop would want to ruin his life and kill someone, right after bringing his child into the world?
Its obvious his life is ruined now. I find it pretty hard to believe he wanted to ruin his life..
and i'm not ignoring the consequences, that was a 22 year old young man who had his whole life ahead of him, it sucks. the cop has to do hella jail time at least. probably life

[Mr. Ron]

lol, well i think that is a possibility, have you ever stayed up all night for a night or two?
i usually can't function very well getting small amounts of sleep.

Tell me why this cop would want to ruin his life and kill someone, right after bringing his child into the world?
Its obvious his life is ruined now. I find it pretty hard to believe he wanted to ruin his life..
and i'm not ignoring the consequences, that was a 22 year old young man who had his whole life ahead of him, it sucks. the cop has to do hella jail time at least. probably life
obviously he wanted to shoot a negro in front of a crowd of people to preserve the Aryan race, duh

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

that is usually the case

[Sleep]

I need the cops to protect and serve us law abiding citizens.

by restraining people and shooting them in the back i agree

[Light Fantastic]

well it wasnt me so i dont really care

[DBoons Ghost]

by restraining people and shooting them in the back i agree

You should find a corner of your room and sit in the corner crying, as you make deep incisions in your thighs where no one can see the pain, and do this in honor of the innocent people who die every day. As the blood drips down your thighs, let it drip all over your cloves so you can mourn all the innocents who have been murdered by the man and smoke cloves dipped in the blood of the victims.

[siva_chair]

You should find a corner of your room and sit in the corner crying, as you make deep incisions in your thighs where no one can see the pain, and do this in honor of the innocent people who die every day. As the blood drips down your thighs, let it drip all over your cloves so you can mourn all the innocents who have been murdered by the man and smoke cloves dipped in the blood of the victims.

lol