LSD as a conciousness raiser

[Meatplow]

So a lot of people who have used such drugs claim it blows their mind open and allows them to see the world in a different perspective that lingers with them for the rest of their lives, as somebody who has never used i'm just curious as to opinions on it's actual worth in this manner and if indeed life can be fully appreciated and understood if you refrain from such use.

Thankyou.

[kingsoby1]

speaking from many experiences, id say that you can understand life fine without it... but it's worth doing.

[kitsch]

So a lot of people who have used such drugs claim it blows their mind open and allows them to see the world in a different perspective that lingers with them for the rest of their lives, as somebody who has never used i'm just curious as to opinions on it's actual worth in this manner and if indeed life can be fully appreciated and understood if you refrain from such use.

Thankyou.

im afriad it would take away my edge after multiple uses and id just be a dreamy hippy.

you know, like what happened to john lennon.

[mph4ever]

sure it frees your mind to dwell on some fantastic things and you really do consider them deeply but then you are too ****ed to do anything else at the time

i think of fantastical things all the time in normal life but am just to busy to dwell on them

[spitfirejunky]

Did LSD and salvia and they're both really ****ing crazy. While the experience is unique it isn't of any real value.

[DBoons Ghost]

It depends on your state of mind at the time you take it, as well as what you do when you're on it.

I have found that it raises consciousness as an amplifier makes music louder. LSD is the emotion amplifier for sure. So if you're listening to metal it makes the metal sound louder. Much with LSD. If you're sad when you take it you're going to amplify those feelings 10 fold. If you're paranoid or scared then you're going to end up in the hospital with an IV pumping Vitaman B into you.

It will give you a heightened sense of awareness as well. So if there is tension around you and you feel it when you're on LSD it will be amplified a thousand times.

[Mr. Ron]

pseudo-intellectual hippies only think LSD makes them obtain some arcane knowledge about life.

[thunderzstruck]

I've done both LSD and mushrooms so this is my opinion.

I don't think it really puts things in a new perspective per say, but instead makes you conscious of everything around you. A lot of people just go through life not having much thought or emotion invested in what's out there in the world. Acid shows you the world as an ever evolving/colorful/exciting planet and it makes you want to understand how it all works.

When on acid/booms you can suddenly become enveloped in everything the world has to offer and possibilities become endless. You are truly examining the world and wanting to become a part of it all


but of course you can also take acid see **** for a few hours and not care a thing afterwards

[Mr. Ron]

My freind took too many shrooms once and jumped into the Hudson river thinking it was ice cream. True story.

[xtal]

Acid shows you the world as an ever evolving/colorful/exciting planet and it makes you want to understand how it all works. lol

[thunderzstruck]

lol
i dont see the problem

[Moon Flavor]

While you're on it it doesn't do much for your perspective. You think about things in a different way and the world seems different but that's about it for that.

Afterwards though, you make some cool discoveries. Imagine putting the smallest amount of a substance in your body (say 200 micrograms) and being brought into another world. When time slows down to a crawl and it's because of a mere 200 micrograms you begin to wonder what else is possible. Maybe time isn't so concrete after all?

It also does wonders for your power of empathy. It really shows that the chemicals in your brain at any given moment can make the same situation vastly different from before. This can also said about the chemicals in each separate persons' brains, even if sober. Everyone's chemical makeup is different and after doing acid it's no wonder why everyone is so different despite being of the same species.

idk if any of that makes sense it probably wouldn't if you haven't done drugs

[guitrguy]

While you're on it it doesn't do much for your perspective. You think about things in a different way and the world seems different but that's about it for that.


um.....

[nungman]

when i took acid i just started thinking everyone else was going nuts and i was completely fine.

granted, 5 hits, 9 beers, and a joint, not mention the fact that i was chilling in a bathroom with 13 other people all smoking pot in a circle will do that to you

afterward i just started to notice really minute things like the patterns on the cafeteria trays here at duquesne (very boring patterns mind you. they didnt move at all)

and music was awesome. i listened to jimi hendrix's electric ladyland album for 4 hours and i kept thinking of it as painting a landscape with sound. plus i made a really cool drawing with markers

overall, its like nothing out there and if youre interested you should try it provided youre responsible and are around responsible people. just find **** to look at and some activity to do like music or drawing. i wouldnt say you NEED to do acid at all

[Moon Flavor]

um.....

Well it's a bit more complicated but that was irrelevent to my point:p

[guitrguy]

that's a change in perspective though.

[Moon Flavor]

Yeah but not really a permanent or important one necessarily.

The fact that you're seeing weird **** and tripping nuts is cool and all.... but it's the fact that the human body is ABLE to see weird **** and trip nuts is what's really interesting, and most people really have no idea what that means until they see it firsthand

[wartomods]

but its ****ed when you start hearing voices while sober and you know its just your mind

[Jude]

Did shrooms once

It was mad crazy, I had a trip from hell. This I think is because I was depressed around when I did the shrooms. But after the trip was over I had a really elated feeling that lasted for quite a while; for the next year and a half or so I could look back on that feeling and the new perspective on life it gave me and feel good about things.

I think it's because I'm of the skeptical, scientific mindset but I didn't really have any cosmic revelations on shrooms. I just went through the worst possible thing that could happen to me (time completely stopped, the whole world stopped existing, and my mind lost its ability to focus on anything; everything was chaos) and came out of it realizing, somehow, that life is what you make it and that I didn't have to worry about a bunch of the stupid **** that had been getting me down, and just being alive is a reason to be happy.

I'm scared to do any more of these drugs, especially LSD, because my dad did a shitload of acid back in the 60s and he's bipolar, and he blames the drugs. I don't feel like bringing out any latent psychological problems I may have.

[Aaron]

pseudo-intellectual hippies only think LSD makes them obtain some arcane knowledge about life.
It gives you the keys to the library.
>>.>>
<<.<<

[jaredong]

i disagree with the position that taking LSD or whatever drugs would make you more creative or allow you to see the world differently in a more "conscious" way.

Course, then people would be like "Oh, you never experienced it, you shouldnt judge". Well, you dont have to do something bad before you know you shouldnt do it.

I think life is a complicated mess of things. To appreciate it, i'd say i want as much of my mental capacity to reason and experience it for as long as possible. I dont think taking drugs would make me think straighter nor live longer; hence promoting the enjoyment of my life.

I'd suggest that very few paradigm shifts in the world has benefited from drug use. There are exceptions of course, but prolly the majority of great thinkers did not use drugs to get a greater perspective on the world.

[peeted]

It depends on weather you mean consiousness as in awareness of the world etc or some stupid spiritualist hippy bull ****. If the former then drugs make you less consious, if the latter then it will make you think your enhancing your consiousness wile its really turning you into even more of a blithering retard than you already were (you must be pretty retarded to buy into all this higher consiousness crap in the first place).

[SugarCoatedSour]

I'd say LSD is useful in the way of psycho-analysis, it can bring up important aspects of communication especially when done in a group of like-minded friends. Unfortunately not everyone is always capable of keeping their composure because LSD is extremely mind manifesting and has a particular flow in the buzz it gives you. It has 2 or 3 plateaus throughout the trip. Acid can also make you feel a little ego-maniacal in the case where you are able to dissociate certain notions or presumptions.

My personal experiences were mixed mainly due to the purity of the acid. The first time I did it was in ideal settings with 3 hits of acid and 2 other friends in on the trip. It was very blissful mostly, it seemed after 3 hours of walking through a very nice park I was starting to forget the rest of society and as time moved forward we proceeded to amuse ourselves in the trip as a bunch of prehistoric humans. There weren't so many thoughts or ideas in the air at this point, but after several more hours once we started getting inside we began to get extra-communicative contact buzzes which resulted in arguments and semantics but eventually we were able to settle out and enjoy things together relating and using each others perceptions. I'd say that doing it with close friends is the most ideal situation.

On the flipside you can also get really dirty acid which seems to have a much tougher time being absorbed through the body resulting in a drastically stunted and hard to adjust to trip. You tend to get jolts of acid pumped at random points through your system, making your body feel constipated with nervous energy that tends to collect in different parts of your body.

It's all what you make of it really, it can be a shallow yet enjoyable experience. It can be frightening or difficult, it can be a tool to reshape the way you like to perceive things if even for the duration of the trip and afterglow. But overall it's just a stimulus for your mind and the certain pathways it effects and allows you to perceive with. MUSHROOMS on the other case I'd recommend, as long as you are respectful of your body and the drug+its effects you can't go too wrong.

[K oko]

meh i dun like that shi i just like weed

dun listen to nobody tell you its just like weed it is batshit crazy stuff and it lasts all fuken day

[xtal]

anyone make an argument for lsd that isn't ****ing retarded yet?

[K oko]

why would you argue about taking LSD what kind of retard would want to argue about that

[SugarCoatedSour]

anyone make an argument for lsd that isn't ****ing retarded yet?

Take it you girly man or you'll never know what Aphex Twin makes music for.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

It gives you the keys to the library.
>>.>>
<<.<<

haha

[SugarCoatedSour]

Well reading anyones idea of these drugs usually closely relates peoples' views. I'm going to restate though that skeptics who try to retain their skepticism will often times have themselves exposed in ugly ways on these types of drugs. On acid especially you must be an active component of time, helping it move along and finding ways of rescuing it in places. You may get caught in an undertow of sorts.

Some of those really ridiculous stories of people doing strange and impulsive things are usually the product of a person overwhelmed with sensation and excitement. I've done something similarly stupid on mdma and at the time of me deciding I had decided against the possibility of hurting myself somewhat lucidly. Yet when I actually did hurt myself I realized how I grossly misconceived my want to deal with that injury after it occurred.

[stevensonmat2]

I think the people who are most opposed to taking acid are the ones who really should.

I always wanted to try acid as young teen, and when I finally did I was somewhat disappointed. While the visual and physical experiences were incredibly enjoyable, the physiological impact was, for me, minimal. My powers of association were top-notch, and indeed everything seemed profound, but really I was just rehashing and bringing up concepts I had realized before. I'm sure I gained some new understanding into a few particular areas, but nothing life changing.

The changed perspective acid provides can be enlightening (my girlfriend hasn't been able to look at people the same way since), but I think I need to try a higher dosage in order to get the experience I'm seeking. My next trip will be at least 4 hits.

[SugarCoatedSour]

Could be a tolerance issue, or a strength/purity of LSD issue. But if you had a clear but otherwise uneventful trip it may just be that you didn't take advantage of things they way you would have liked or maybe you hadn't let go of certain ill-founded ideals. Acid is not a drug thats very easily tied into spirituality (unlike Mushrooms).

[siva_chair]

Never had LSD myself, but I've had some pretty interesting experiences with other entheogens.

[K oko]

well it depends what you want

low doses is recreational some eye candy lots of giggles etc

medium doses can bend your mind but you're still in control

and then you get people who want to experience ego death like terrence mckenna and talk to the aliens and the cosmic gnomes who take big doses and travel through bend reality

so it really depends on what you want to get out of it how much you take and your set and setting and frame of mind

[johnnyblaze]

The realization that consciousness can be SO drastically altered is, to many first-time drug users, extraordinarily profound. I'd like to quote Aldous Huxley's conclusion in The Doors of Perception, cliche I know, yet still a interesting quick read.

"..the man who comes back through the Door... will never be quite the same as the man who went out. He will wiser but less cocksure, happier but less self-satisfied, humbler in acknowledging his ignorance yet better equipped to understand the relationship of words to things, of systematic reasoning to the unfathomable Mystery which he tries, forever vainly, to comprehend."

I'm a huge fan of Huxley's work, and I love his insight in this quote; it sums up how I feel about the after effects (lifetime-effects) of a psychedelic experience. I've done acid once, a relatively small dose, and mushrooms a number of times, though I haven't touched any psychedelics in nearly a year.

[siva_chair]

well it depends what you want

low doses is recreational some eye candy lots of giggles etc

medium doses can bend your mind but you're still in control

and then you get people who want to experience ego death like terrence mckenna and talk to the aliens and the cosmic gnomes who take big doses and travel through bend reality

so it really depends on what you want to get out of it how much you take and your set and setting and frame of mind

aka DMT

[SugarCoatedSour]

A low dose of lsd is very similar to prescription medication. It in itself presents no outward stimulus or direct perceptual differences but it allows for some scientific discussion regarding whatever you really want. On lsd when communicating with another clued in person you may find yourself constantly battling or being split in views on things. This is due to the inherent difference we all carry, even though we may regard a thing near similarly. This is one of the things that is exemplified on acid; the duality of living moment by moment. But a low dose allows you to not be so momentous about everything you think and do but gives you the confidence to talk about important things in yourself and others and also the happenings around you. So I'd say LSD is actually most "useful" in the low doses....but high doses can show you how convoluted things can become when thinking and acting in a constantly variable environment all the while retaining a self awareness that is independent of reality and its conditions.

[SugarCoatedSour]

aka DMT

I want to try some ibogaine....read on that stuff if you will.

[peeted]

How on earth does lsd "allow for scientific discussion", what does that even mean? And what the hell does "duality of living moment by moment" mean?

If your never torn between diffrent posistions when debating something then there is something wrong with you, LSD isnt the solution though, becoming more open minded or analysing each oposing posistion more thoroughley is the solution. If you only ever engage in debates when on drugs then maybe you should get some more stimulating freinds.

Just for the record i have no problem whatsoever with people taking LSD, i just hate idiots who claim it gives them some sort of special insight into the world and come out with meaningless crap like "duality of living moment to moment" etc.

[SugarCoatedSour]

hmm...there's no point to be proven. And I'm not fighting any sides...just blathering my personal opinion really, you seem more aggravated by the connotations that words hold. Most importantly I don't want to defend from your antagonistic comment there because what I have said in this thread doesn't attach me to anything of importance.

You're not here really to talk about drugs or even progress any conversation. It seems you're more interested in expressing the fact that all of us are some type of pseudo-hippy.

[Faceless_AtJ]

I've never even thought about doing this drug before because of these reasons:

Although some medical doctors have found proper uses in them when mixed correctly, if they are taken the way the average drug user takes it will destroy your brain in a matter of months. It does give you a slightly better high because it keeps your brain from sending out a specific chemical that tells you when you are in pain and psychologists have also found that the drug can link to mania which I don't want to take the time to explain.

But in all honesty I'm sure in moderation it could be fine but I wouldn't want to take any chances with it.

To each his own though.

[SugarCoatedSour]

I think the greater topic of discussion would be natural drugs vs. man made drugs.

[K oko]

well just remember it hits serotonin in your brain, and that regulates most of your cognitive functions

people with depression and mental illness typically have serotonin imbalances

it was the research of LSD that led to that discovery and the development of medicines which help ppl with those problems

ive done it a bit i wont do it ever again i think if youre on the edge yeah it can definitly make you unbalanced but if you are normal you will just be like w/e the next day

i personally dont like it but thats me i dont like getting high as hell for 8-12 hours and unable function at all

yeh it can be fun with friends cuz you laugh your *** off at everything and see trails and just like wtf this is trrrrippppy rofls watching cartoons is funny as hell etc but looking for deep meaning in drug experience is wtf if you ask me

but idk its just not my thing

[Faceless_AtJ]

well just remember it hits serotonin in your brain, and that regulates most of your cognitive functions

people with depression and mental illness typically have serotonin imbalances

it was the research of LSD that led to that discovery and the development of medicines which help ppl with those problems

ive done it a bit i wont do it ever again i think if youre on the edge yeah it can definitly make you unbalanced but if you are normal you will just be like w/e the next day

i personally dont like it but thats me i dont like getting high as hell for 8-12 hours and unable function at all

yeh it can be fun with friends cuz you laugh your *** off at everything and see trails and just like wtf this is trrrrippppy rofls watching cartoons is funny as hell etc but looking for deep meaning in drug experience is wtf if you ask me

but idk its just not my thing

Serotonin! That's what it is. And yeah I agree with you, it ain't my thing but for some reason my friends do drugs alot, not around me thank god, but they are always saying how much fun it is and how I should join them to forget anything.

It doesn't help get rid of problems, it gives you more, especailly when they they or any drug user is trying to find an excuse to hit it everyday.

I think it's pathetic.

[hismajestythepope]

So a lot of people who have used such drugs claim it blows their mind open and allows them to see the world in a different perspective that lingers with them for the rest of their lives, as somebody who has never used i'm just curious as to opinions on it's actual worth in this manner and if indeed life can be fully appreciated and understood if you refrain from such use.

Thankyou.

you learn a lot of things about yourself when you're on acid. in low doses, its a very mentally based trip and you get to a lot of thoughts that may be bothering you, and because you're thinking so thoroughly about said subjects you'll be able to branch out to new perspectives, seriously daaaawwwwg. get you they solutions to you issues.

but for real, every time i do acid i come to an epiphany, it used to scare me because i was at a really weird point in my life, what with relationships, family, discovering things other than pot and beer, etc. but over the past few years, thanks to acid largely, i've been able to really dissect my psyche and basically don't even need anti-depressants anymore, etc. etc.

[Reductio]

I've done shrooms. It's a unique/fascinating experience, but I don't think it's really changed my outlook on life in any significant way. For me, drugs are just like other forms of entertainment- they're interesting distractions but they haven't really altered me permanently.

I intend to do LSD sometime anyway.

[K oko]

Serotonin! That's what it is. And yeah I agree with you, it ain't my thing but for some reason my friends do drugs alot, not around me thank god, but they are always saying how much fun it is and how I should join them to forget anything.

It doesn't help get rid of problems, it gives you more, especailly when they they or any drug user is trying to find an excuse to hit it everyday.

I think it's pathetic.

umm i take drugs to have fun idk who the hell would take drugs to solve their problems or think they get some kind of deep meaning out of it

i mean why the hell would you take drugs if it wasnt fun what would be the point if it all it did was cause you problems nobody would do it

some people get carried away tho get into dealing and doing it way to much then it becomes a problem

if you can handle it and keep control over your life and have fun once in a while then its not really a big deal

its just when people make it into a life style you know it can enhance your life but when its all you do you got issues

[hismajestythepope]

I've done shrooms. It's a unique/fascinating experience, but I don't think it's really changed my outlook on life in any significant way. For me, drugs are just like other forms of entertainment- they're interesting distractions but they haven't really altered me permanently.

I intend to do LSD sometime anyway.

acid is fun. its a lot more controlled feeling than booms. and the euphoria is amazing.

[K oko]

the spice
extends life

the spice
expands consciousness

the spice
is vital to
space travel

[K oko]

the only thing i can say for certain is youve never heard music until youve heard it on lsd

[fatkidzonmopedz]

ive never tried shrooms or acid but i have some friends that have that weren't very impressed. i think we got the crappy acid in town.

music is pretty great when you're on ecstasy, i tripped balls on it.

[K oko]

it was bunk shi ur friends got ripped off

[fatkidzonmopedz]

im pretty sure. we have no good drugs really. only good good thats easy to find is marijuana and ecstasy. sh!tty acid, sh!tty salvia, sh!tty coke and meth. i dont touch that anymore though but i would like to try some acid with the knowledge of whether im wasting 20 dollars on good or bad sh!t.

[Shadius]

I think the greater topic of discussion would be natural drugs vs. man made drugs.

why? mind altering chemicals are mind altering chemicals. they all do it in different ways, but it dosn't have much to do with whether they're naturally occuring or man made.

while we're at it, let's discuss lethal man made vs. natural toxins, which are deadlier?

o

[fatkidzonmopedz]

id say lethal man made, bc most of that junk is different combinations of dangerous chemicals that the person mixing them doesn't even know anything about em. they're all equally dangerous but when you think about it the first one sounds a bit more dangerous.

[K oko]

lol lethal is lethal

lsd isnt lethal tho it requires enormous amounts of it to poison someone which are millions of times greater than the usual dose

[K oko]

im pretty sure. we have no good drugs really. only good good thats easy to find is marijuana and ecstasy. sh!tty acid, sh!tty salvia, sh!tty coke and meth. i dont touch that anymore though but i would like to try some acid with the knowledge of whether im wasting 20 dollars on good or bad sh!t.

well unless u know the person ur gonna get ripped and $20 for a hit of acid is pretty high its like $2-3 maybe 5 for blotter unless you get gels which are like $10-20 but those are usually 2-10x more dose than a regular blotter plus gels are usually the highest grade acid you can get if you can find them

but anyways dont buy acid from ppl u dont know well or dont completely trust that is the golden rule

[SugarCoatedSour]

why? mind altering chemicals are mind altering chemicals. they all do it in different ways, but it dosn't have much to do with whether they're naturally occuring or man made.

while we're at it, let's discuss lethal man made vs. natural toxins, which are deadlier?

o

I think there's a great difference in the delivery in most case that and purity as well as other substances that usually aid or antagonize the process of the main active substance.

[SugarCoatedSour]

Im starting to think this discussion is dead.

ACID FOR THE BRAIN, MUSHROOMS FOR TRANSIENT PERCEPTION

[hismajestythepope]

hahahaha.

[Mr. Ron]

you learn a lot of things about yourself when you're on acid. in low doses, its a very mentally based trip and you get to a lot of thoughts that may be bothering you, and because you're thinking so thoroughly about said subjects you'll be able to branch out to new perspectives, seriously daaaawwwwg. get you they solutions to you issues.

but for real, every time i do acid i come to an epiphany, it used to scare me because i was at a really weird point in my life, what with relationships, family, discovering things other than pot and beer, etc. but over the past few years, thanks to acid largely, i've been able to really dissect my psyche and basically don't even need anti-depressants anymore, etc. etc.
lol stfu mappy

[hismajestythepope]

its true though dude.

[McP3000]

idk ive always found people that say drugs open up the "realness" of one's mind as people who are just trying to justify their drug addictions

js

[Badmoon]

I've had alotta bad trips -- like seven. But I've had more good trips. One way or another, I don't have a different outlook on life from any of the trips -- except, for me, acid makes me extremely odd in social situations. I usually trip by myself, or with one or two people who are also tripping.

[McP3000]

okay saying that your prefer tripping by yourself definitely makes you sound like an addict :lol:

[SugarCoatedSour]

Tripping by yourself isn't necessarily bad.

[little_eiffel]

is it safe to trip on acid alone?

having enjoyed previous trips on substances on my own, i wouldn't think it would be a problem. but you never know...

[exodus]

I think acid is really overrated, I did them once last year and it wasn't like I had a religious experience or anything like that. I was just tripping balls for 11 hours seeing weird **** morphing into weirder ****. Went to sleep afterwards, woke up the next day and was back to normal...

[guitrguy]

not unless you're the type that gets psyched out easily

[SugarCoatedSour]

If you're confident enough that you'll have comfortable or at the very least bearable buzz then you can do it alone.

[Badmoon]

is it safe to trip on acid alone?

having enjoyed previous trips on substances on my own, i wouldn't think it would be a problem. but you never know...

I usually have a good time. However, I don't like trippin' in complete darkness. Last two bad trips I had were in my room at three o'clock in the morning with no lights on -- it got pretty creepy.

[withintention]

2-Ci or 2 Meto Pe are better for insight but LCD can definitely open your mind to some oddities in life. It all depends on how your trip is, really. Bad trips will definitely show you hell while a great trip will completely reinvent you.

[Badmoon]

Damn, some of my friends got some 2-ci/etc awhile ago -- I wanted some, but wasn't so worried that I wouldn't get the chance again. Haven't seen that sh*t in like a year.

[samarahah]

I've never tried LSD, but smoking weed has definitely changed me for the better. Not entirely by itself of course but it helped lead me to pursue venues that I probably wouldn't have otherwise (philosophy, psychology, eastern religions, etc).

[Mr. Ron]

sam are you a izlam now?



me personally, I'm just not into it really. Doesn't interest me.

[samarahah]

no, hah. buddhism is pretty cool though but i wouldn't align myself with any one system.

[K oko]

if you drop really good lsd in a moderately high dose you will definitely know it it's powerful stuff you wont be like that was overrated that is for sure

shrooms or mescaline ftw they are fun and organic and its easy to know what youre getting with that stuff if you have half a brain

[flabbergast]

I never tried acid but shrooms have resulted in some very bizarre experiences like reduction of my ego and time being stretched and warped to the point where seconds felt like minutes. And when i smoked salvia, it knocked me out completely for a few minutes after which i woke up crying of laughter. I have no idea what happened there, except that it felt as if gravity turned sideways. That stuff is ridiculous.

All of this was interesting and memorable to say the least. However, i don't feel as if any of that lead to revolutionary insights. If there was something there that could lead to personal growth, i wasn't able to process the information. Shrooms gave me such a torrent of sensory impulses and seemingly random thoughts and associations that i found it exhausting more than anything else.

Perhaps mescaline has something good in store for me though, i do have a peruvian torch that's getting pretty big and the user experiences on erowid describe something i definitely want to experience at least once. We'll see.

[SugarCoatedSour]

I've developed plenty of ideas and ideals through psychedelic experience and the communication that was brought out of it. The perspective shifts are unfamiliar and seemingly unattached to reality in most people's minds but surely they are integral to the human experience. Not like you can go through life making a complete waste of your experiences and perspectives (it is possible but irrelevant to most outside parties) but a psychedelic experience allows you to experience your world as it stands inside a real world which constantly reflects you/you reflect it. In the case of ego-loss or ego reduction you get to experience things anew.

[K oko]

mescaline is my favorite its not as powerful as acid or shrooms but it is really a warm and fuzzy experience

we usually brew it into a pretty nasty tea it makes me really sick to my stomach at first but it wears off and then it feels amazing

[TheNoonwardRace]

idk ive always found people that say drugs open up the "realness" of one's mind as people who are just trying to justify their drug addictions

js
Are you denying realness?

Are you denying that people can experience anything in their minds?

I think it's true, we can experience whatever we convince our selves of. Obviously you may think of extreme situations of self delusion but the true value is in the subtleties and the little things, like realizing there is no such thing as, 'real', 'average', not implying that everything is wishy washy and that objectivity is so subjective that you will understand things like a 'drug trip' but that words and language are very meaningless, this a good thing, it is only as radical as the world really is.

[SugarCoatedSour]

Although I haven't had a personal experience I'd assume mescaline is comparably powerful, maybe in different ways.

[TheNoonwardRace]

idk ive always found people that say drugs open up the "realness" of one's mind as people who are just trying to justify their drug addictions

js
Are you denying realness?

Are you denying that people can experience anything in their minds?

I think it's true, we can experience whatever we convince our selves of. Obviously you may think of extreme situations of self delusion but the true value is in the subtleties and the little things, like realizing there is no such thing as, 'real', 'average', not implying that everything is wishy washy and that objectivity is so subjective that you will understand things like a 'drug trip' but that words and language are very meaningless, this a good thing, it is only as radical as the world really is.

[K oko]

idk you cant really discuss this yes you can experience heightened expansion of consciousness yes you can experience spiritual and profound insights yes but talking about it just sounds cliche because you cant describe a subjective experience to someone unless they have also experienced it its like talking to people you have nothing in common with

im not advocating it because its not for everyone and i have seen people have bad reactions so be careful and be smart about it

[TheNoonwardRace]

exactly, thats what people are afraid of discord, the unknown, or anything that doesnt fit into white and black

in my opinion (which is correct)

everything everyone says about drugs are true,

except for these ideas:

-drugs are always bad
-everyone should do them
-everyone likes them

[Jude]

Unless you already have a known mental illness or other issues, there's basically no way to know if you should or shouldn't try these drugs, until it's too late

[peeted]

Are you denying realness?

Are you denying that people can experience anything in their minds?

I think it's true, we can experience whatever we convince our selves of. Obviously you may think of extreme situations of self delusion but the true value is in the subtleties and the little things, like realizing there is no such thing as, 'real', 'average', not implying that everything is wishy washy and that objectivity is so subjective that you will understand things like a 'drug trip' but that words and language are very meaningless, this a good thing, it is only as radical as the world really is.

If it makes you think that words and language are meaningless then it makes you wrong. You cant even properley think that worlds and language are meaningless because your thinking that with words and language. Unless you just get so blasted that you REALLY dont understand whats going on at all.

[Jude]

You can have thoughts without words

[TheNoonwardRace]

If it makes you think that words and language are meaningless then it makes you wrong. You cant even properley think that worlds and language are meaningless because your thinking that with words and language. Unless you just get so blasted that you REALLY dont understand whats going on at all.

If it makes you think that words and language are meaningless then it makes you wrong.What does this mean? What do you mean by wrong? You obviously didn't really understand what I was going for, you are not even talking about the same thing.
You cant even properley think that worlds and language are meaningless because your thinking that with words and language.properly*
you're*
Like Jude said, you can have thoughts without words. The most important things in our lifes aren't ruled by words but passion.

Now to get back on topic, drugs can help you understand things of this nature (which is what I'm getting at).

Now considering what I just typed in the last sentence, I have to say I don't think it's a default ability of 'drugs' to, 'expand your mind', I think spiritual and mental healthiness are defined by yourself, some people choose drugs to facilitate this, some people feel being high makes them happy, which as you know, happiness is quite synonymous with a good life.

[TheNoonwardRace]

The simple fact is:
drugs can make people as happy as it can destroy them,
they are unknown,

and, hard to define, to legitimize



there is no notion in this conclusion that says 'durgs r good' or 'durgs are bad'
there are neither

[K oko]

Unless you already have a known mental illness or other issues, there's basically no way to know if you should or shouldn't try these drugs, until it's too late

actually it can be beneficial to people with illness in a therapeutic setting but because of the hysteria and wild propaganda surrounding psychedelics it will never be legal to do that or continue research into psychedelic therapy

[TheNoonwardRace]

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/07/10/mushroom-psychedelic.html

I did mushrooms, it made my life life utterly miserable for a few month because I had some problems I should have worked out before. But that's over, I definitely feel the world differently, but my life is fine now.
That experience included such things as a sense of pure awareness and a merging with ultimate reality, a transcendence of time and space, a feeling of sacredness or awe, and deeply felt positive mood like joy, peace and love. People say "they can't possibly put it into words," Griffiths said.Doesn't that sound like a beautiful experience.

[K oko]

ive had a bad experience with shrooms but they werent dried properly i took them and felt ill and had a terrible trip after we looked at it and noticed they had some mold but it was practically invisible

thats why if you do them you grow them yourself or go pick them with someone who knows their stuff like an old hippy mycology professor cuz its whacked to eat shrooms you dont know where they came from lol

[TheNoonwardRace]

I had the worst trip you can imagine, I felt every bit of paranoia I ever had become real, it was the worst feeling ever, so raw, out of maybe 4 hours I only felt excited for a few moments, I was in awe at the organic horror I saw, once in while I can feel hints of it, it's a weird thing, though I am used to feeling like this sometimes I can remember how safe I used to feel.

But, I can't say it was a mistake. I also cannot deny that it was my decision.

As I said before, drugs are an unknown, I cannot adequately explain my feelings about them directly, but I can try to help maybe to try to have people who get really stressed out about drug use to maybe understand that the, I'm not saying it's misplaced, stigma, that they have often exacerbates mental situations you can have on drugs and can trigger cycles of drug use that can deteriorate a person's quality of life.

I'm not for legalization of all drugs because I don't think that will happen, I consider that we do need a certain level of regulation, I think currently this level is incorrect.

[JonG]

I've done mushrooms about 6 times and acid 3 times. I enjoy it every time and haven't had a bad trip. If you are unstable before the trip, you shouldn't do it in the first place :)

I agree with regulation of certain "drugs" but most should be illegal.

[K oko]

i think they are better off being legal to be honest not because i think they are necessarily good for you but because it makes people who arent criminals into criminals and the people who are criminals richer but you know its easier to keep people stupid and not allow them to make choices for themselves and what they want to put in their bodies because people are inherently stupid but then doing drugs is inherently stupid anyways so really its the biggest fusty walrus!ing scam ever

[K oko]

I had the worst trip you can imagine, I felt every bit of paranoia I ever had become real, it was the worst feeling ever, so raw, out of maybe 4 hours I only felt excited for a few moments, I was in awe at the organic horror I saw, once in while I can feel hints of it, it's a weird thing, though I am used to feeling like this sometimes I can remember how safe I used to feel.

But, I can't say it was a mistake. I also cannot deny that it was my decision.

As I said before, drugs are an unknown, I cannot adequately explain my feelings about them directly, but I can try to help maybe to try to have people who get really stressed out about drug use to maybe understand that the, I'm not saying it's misplaced, stigma, that they have often exacerbates mental situations you can have on drugs and can trigger cycles of drug use that can deteriorate a person's quality of life.

I'm not for legalization of all drugs because I don't think that will happen, I consider that we do need a certain level of regulation, I think currently this level is incorrect.

i had a very creepy experience on shrooms once you arent alone

i saw these tiny little people like things everywhere and they had this really evil smile on their face and when i saw them they would disappear and then id see them in the corner of my eye and i was pretty sure at that point i had gone completely batshit crazy i was asking my friends if they saw them they were just laughing their asses off and i was pretty sure that reality was a huge freaking joke and i was the victim of it

i felt really creeped out for like a week and then i just laughed about it

but then i read that the mayans who used to eat shrooms religiously would see duendes and i was kinda weirded out that they were described alot like what i had seen so then i realized that that is how people created all these crazy mythologies and stuff so then it all made sense why people believed such strange things because they were eating shrooms and you will see weird **** on them

[Jude]

I was pretty depressed about 2 years ago, did shrooms, had a trip from hell, and came down from it feeling amazing about life which lasted like 6 months

[wartomods]

i would say to you kids a couple of drugs you could buy for 4 dollars at med store, and they would be even more intricated/dangerous/strong than lsd ( without prescription )

[K oko]

gypsum weed/datura is far more powerful and dangerous than any drug and it grows wild all over and is legal if you are crazy enough to try it

[peeted]

You can have thoughts without words

You cant articulate or understand propositions without words and language "words and language are very meaningless" is a proposition.
What i mean by "If it makes you think that words and language are meaningless then it makes you wrong." is that words and language are not meaningless, if something causes you to believe they are then that thing gives you a false belief and therefore makes you wrong.

There’s nothing wrong with doing drugs, i used to smoke a **** load of weed myself, and a lot of my friends to acid etc and its fine as long as you do it
with the knowledge that it really is just a drug that temporarily messes with your brain a tiny bit and slightly detaches you from reality, not some way to get a deep understanding of anything. If its making you think stuff like "words and language are meaningless" then maybe you should take a step back and review what your thinking, assess weather it actually makes sense when your head is clear.

[TheNoonwardRace]

You cant articulate or understand propositions without words and language "words and language are very meaningless" is a proposition.
What i mean by "If it makes you think that words and language are meaningless then it makes you wrong." is that words and language are not meaningless, if something causes you to believe they are then that thing gives you a false belief and therefore makes you wrong.okay this has nothing to with the topic and just your pendantics.

There’s nothing wrong with doing drugs, i used to smoke a **** load of weed myself, and a lot of my friends to acid etc and its fine as long as you do it
with the knowledge that it really is just a drug that temporarily messes with your brain a tiny bit and slightly detaches you from reality, not some way to get a deep understanding of anything. If its making you think stuff like "words and language are meaningless" then maybe you should take a step back and review what your thinking, assess weather it actually makes sense when your head is clear.What I am saying is that drugs CAN facilitate 'deep experiences' because it is up the singular person to prepare themselves and be striving for a deep experience.

Like, you can be a spiritually solid person, and do drugs and learn things about your own spirituality while on them.

Doing them does not invalidate your spirituality at all.

[K oko]

for me mj is the most spiritual experience and the one that makes me able to focus on what i want to do tbh lsd is just way to strange and abstract and numerical and just generally self-inflicted insanity imho

[peeted]

Im still not convinced, but thats because i dont really believe in spirituality etc. And my objections to your meaningless language stuff were relevant to the topic, the threads about lsd etc raising consiousness, i dont think it can, i was debating something you said in favour of it raising consiousness. Therefore its relevant.

[TheNoonwardRace]

Im still not convinced, but thats because i dont really believe in spirituality etc. And my objections to your meaningless language stuff were relevant to the topic, the threads about lsd etc raising consiousness, i dont think it can, i was debating something you said in favour of it raising consiousness. Therefore its relevant.
I'm am not stating my opinion, it is a plain fact that people can have spiritual experiences in conjunction with psychedelics, because a society labels something a 'drug' does not factor at all and especially not destroy the experience.

You underestimate the power of suggestion, illusion, false positives, the pure density of complexity that is the human neurology, we can convince ourselves of anything, the multitude and prevalence of mental illness and treatment is indicative that we as a culture take our minds seriously and understand that it is capable of producing its own reality very subjectively. What I mean by words are meaningless can be expressed from another perspective (another perspective because it is not the true meaning in one arrangement of words, real ideas, wordless ones, can be expressed axiomatically to show its true nature) as, objectivity is subjective when you are you.

That is a summary of what I mean. If you continue to reread maybe you will understand.

[peeted]

"Objective is subjective" is a contradiction. By making your point clearer you have just made it more clearley false. Let me state my argument so it doesnt just sound like im ranting wildley about "the evils of drugs".

Reality is NOT subjective, the perception of reality IS subjective to degree, drugs like lsd increse that degree, but in doing so they take your mind futher away from reality. To be consious of something is to be aware of it, awareness is a type of knowledge, knowledge requires truth, there is 1 truth and so it cant be subjective, since lsd increses the degree of subjectivity in your experience it takes you futher away from truth, therefore it makes you less aware and therefore less consious.

[Moon Flavor]

"Objective is subjective" is a contradiction. By making your point clearer you have just made it more clearley false. Let me state my argument so it doesnt just sound like im ranting wildley about "the evils of drugs".

Reality is NOT subjective, the perception of reality IS subjective to degree, drugs like lsd increse that degree, but in doing so they take your mind futher away from reality. To be consious of something is to be aware of it, awareness is a type of knowledge, knowledge requires truth, there is 1 truth and so it cant be subjective, since lsd increses the degree of subjectivity in your experience it takes you futher away from truth, therefore it makes you less aware and therefore less consious.

That makes absolutely no sense especially the 1 truth part. Perception of reality is not "subjective to a degree", it's completely subjective and 100% different for each person and each scenario. I don't know where you got this idea that acid brings you away from reality because, to be honest, it doesn't at all it just shows you reality in a different way.

I'm tempted to say that anyone who hasn't done acid flat out doesn't know what they're talking about on this subject and likewise they should stop having an opinion on it. Because if you haven't done it, you have NO IDEA (guaranteed!) what acid is like at all, so therefore you can't speculate.

[peeted]

How does there being one truth not make sense? If theres not true that theres one truth what are we arguing about? what you say is true and what i say is true. People who dont do acid can talk about acid and cant talk about acid. These are the sorts of ridiculous conclusions you get from saying there is more than one truth.

[TheNoonwardRace]

"Objective is subjective" is a contradiction. By making your point clearer you have just made it more clearley false. Let me state my argument so it doesnt just sound like im ranting wildley about "the evils of drugs".

Reality is NOT subjective, the perception of reality IS subjective to degree, drugs like lsd increse that degree, but in doing so they take your mind futher away from reality. To be consious of something is to be aware of it, awareness is a type of knowledge, knowledge requires truth, there is 1 truth and so it cant be subjective, since lsd increses the degree of subjectivity in your experience it takes you futher away from truth, therefore it makes you less aware and therefore less consious.
You're proving my point.

I am correct. You are correct.

[peeted]

I dont understand how that could be the case, my thesis seems to directley contradict yours. Can you explain how both our opinions obtain together or do you actualy believe that contradictions can be true?

[K oko]

Im still not convinced, but thats because i dont really believe in spirituality etc. And my objections to your meaningless language stuff were relevant to the topic, the threads about lsd etc raising consiousness, i dont think it can, i was debating something you said in favour of it raising consiousness. Therefore its relevant.

well what do you think it means to raise your consciousness or to be spiritual really you cant believe in something if you dont know what it even is and if we have very different ideas about what it means we arent really even communicating we're just talking past each other

[TheNoonwardRace]

I dont understand how that could be the case, my thesis seems to directley contradict yours. Can you explain how both our opinions obtain together or do you actualy believe that contradictions can be true?
Hey I didn't do it. That's how it is.

[siva_chair]

Reality is NOT subjective, the perception of reality IS subjective to degree, drugs like lsd increse that degree, but in doing so they take your mind futher away from reality.

That assumes our ordinary perception is in fact closer to this so called reality that our perception on LSD, no? From what are you deriving this comparitive scale, exactly? If we come to all knowledge through our perception (which you admitted is subjective), how can we know what state of perception is closest to what you have said is reality? In other words, what knowledge do we have of this reality (outside our own perceptions of it) and how can we determine what perception is "closer" to it?

I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering if you can clarify this postion for me.

[siva_chair]

Hey I didn't do it. That's how it is.

I think we have a Discordian in our presence. :p

[peeted]

That assumes our ordinary perception is in fact closer to this so called reality that our perception on LSD, no? From what are you deriving this comparitive scale, exactly? If we come to all knowledge through our perception (which you admitted is subjective), how can we know what state of perception is closest to what you have said is reality? In other words, what knowledge do we have of this reality (outside our own perceptions of it) and how can we determine what perception is "closer" to it?

I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering if you can clarify this postion for me.
Well for a start we can empirialy test the perceptions (i know its kind of circular to test perceptions in such a way but remember we are not arguing about sceptiscism or the like but mereley subjectivity) and via a long period of repeated tests and corrolation of data (which makes it less subjective) we do have certain knowledge about the reliability of our senses.

Secondly the existence of shared experience strongly backs the thesis that perception isnt radicaly subjective. When people see the same things then generaly tend to describe the same things, the thesis that we all see the same things and see them the same way is by far the best explanation of this.

[siva_chair]

Well for a start we can empirialy test the perceptions (i know its kind of circular to test perceptions in such a way but remember we are not arguing about sceptiscism or the like but mereley subjectivity) and via a long period of repeated tests and corrolation of data (which makes it less subjective) we do have certain knowledge about the reliability of our senses.

Knowledge completely gained from our perception to begin with. I'm not convinced that this gets us any closer to "objective reality." It seems to only confirm our perceptions (which as you said are subjective). It still rests on the assumption that our perceptions are giving us true objective knowledge of reality (or even a close approximation).

Secondly the existence of shared experience strongly backs the thesis that perception isnt radicaly subjective. When people see the same things then generaly tend to describe the same things, the thesis that we all see the same things and see them the same way is by far the best explanation of this.

Ahh but many people who have taken such drugs as DMT and LSD seem to also describe similar shared experiences. We subscribe these things as the results of chemicals in our brain, but all conscious awareness is predicated on that as well. Our everyday ordinary experiences can be viewed in the same manner. What exactly makes a drug induced experience (or collective description thereof) less "real" than an ordinary waking state experience in this respect?

Once again, not saying that there is indeed no objective reality, just curious.

[peeted]

The first point really butresses the second, the mass of data tells us that people have very very similar experiences, the best explanation for this is that we experience the same way. If we dont then it becomes very hard to explain the data.

People who do LSD report shared experiences but also report very diffrent experiences. You can explain the first with the fact that people together have the same visual and social stimulus, the latter becomes very hard to explain in the same way though.

[siva_chair]

The first point really butresses the second, the mass of data tells us that people have very very similar experiences, the best explanation for this is that we experience the same way. If we dont then it becomes very hard to explain the data.

Yes but that does not mean that our everyday perception is remotely close to what is "reality."

It is very possible that the similar chemical makeup of all our brains is what induces similar experiences and stimuli. It still rests on the assumption that our perceptions aren't really doing anything but relaying what is there.

Afterall, a cat more than likely experiences the world in a vastly different way than us (do to things like brain structure, sensory faculties, etc). How can we say for certain that a human's ordinary perception is closer to this so called reality than a cats?

People who do LSD report shared experiences but also report very diffrent experiences. You can explain the first with the fact that people together have the same visual and social stimulus, the latter becomes very hard to explain in the same way though.

People under normal brain chemistry also report different experiences as well (thus the reason that perception is subjective). Perception seems very much to be an active process, so I'm still at a loss how you can say that it is "closer" to objective reality when we have no means to measure what actually constitutes this said objective reality.

[peeted]

The diffrence in the degree of similarity between experience of every day people and drug users is vast.

In response to the first point you made it is entirley true that we are detatched in some way from reality by your senses and perception. However if something makes our perceptions more subjective theres a greater chance of contradiction between individual experiences and thus a lower chance of truth. Cats may experience the world very diffrentley from us, but their experience wont contradict in any way the way we experience the world.

[siva_chair]

The diffrence in the degree of similarity between experience of every day people and drug users is vast.

Yes and no, to a degree. I know many people who have done the drug DMT that almost universally experience the same kind of things. Also, one could say the similarity in experience of every day people is due to the fact that our minds are all "tuned" into a similar mode of perception from which we develop language and other forms of expression to create a "common perception." This seems to create a sort of "feedback loop" of information. Consciousness piles upon consciousness, thereby influencing further perceptions and commonality, and thus you have the evolution of consciousness. Both the "collective" and "individual," if you will.

In response to the first point you made it is entirley true that we are detatched in some way from reality by your senses and perception. However if something makes our perceptions more subjective theres a greater chance of contradiction between individual experiences and thus a lower chance of truth.

This still assumes that we have a measure of absolute truth, or a framework, from which to judge this.

I'm not denying that there can be contradictions between various perceptions, or even between perceptions and some "objective reality." I am just wondering how you are coming to conclude that there is indeed an objective truth outside of awareness to compare our subjective perception in relation to, outside of just assuming as much.

Cats may experience the world very diffrentley from us, but their experience wont contradict in any way the way we experience the world.

What do you mean it will not "contradict?" You still seem to be assuming the world has a definitive form outside our own active perception of it.

[Jude]

You cant articulate or understand propositions without words and language



This is false

[siva_chair]

Well you can't really articulate....

[Jude]

Well yeah but you can understand and think about abstract things without words which I think is what he was going for

Language is the means of expressing those things it doesn't create the ability to think about them

[siva_chair]

I know.

[peeted]

Yes and no, to a degree. I know many people who have done the drug DMT that almost universally experience the same kind of things. Also, one could say the similarity in experience of every day people is due to the fact that our minds are all "tuned" into a similar mode of perception from which we develop language and other forms of expression to create a "common perception." This seems to create a sort of "feedback loop" of information. Consciousness piles upon consciousness, thereby influencing further perceptions and commonality, and thus you have the evolution of consciousness. Both the "collective" and "individual," if you will.



This still assumes that we have a measure of absolute truth, or a framework, from which to judge this.

I'm not denying that there can be contradictions between various perceptions, or even between perceptions and some "objective reality." I am just wondering how you are coming to conclude that there is indeed an objective truth outside of awareness to compare our subjective perception in relation to, outside of just assuming as much.



What do you mean it will not "contradict?" You still seem to be assuming the world has a definitive form outside our own active perception of it.

What do you mean by a definitive form outside of our perception? If your talking about an external world then this is an assumption i am willing to back up (i did an essay on it last year, if this is what you mean then i will just paste that on here, i think its relevant to the direction this discusion is heading, i cant right now though because im at university).

Im not arguing that there is something outside of us which we can use as a messure of truth (because essentialy we are detatched from the external world), but that probibility of contradiction is a strong indication of a process being unreliable.

[peeted]

Well yeah but you can understand and think about abstract things without words which I think is what he was going for

Language is the means of expressing those things it doesn't create the ability to think about them

Weather or not this is true (and i dont think it is, it seems to fly in the face of a lot of psychology, linguistics and philosophy) is irelevant, i was explicitly talking about understanding of propositions and you definatley cant do that without language.

[siva_chair]

What do you mean by a definitive form outside of our perception? If your talking about an external world then this is an assumption i am willing to back up (i did an essay on it last year, if this is what you mean then i will just paste that on here, i think its relevant to the direction this discusion is heading, i cant right now though because im at university).

What I mean is an external world with a specific objective form. Transcendent of our perceptions, if you will.

But go ahead and paste the essay, I'd like to read it even if it isn't what I am specifically referring to.

Im not arguing that there is something outside of us which we can use as a messure of truth (because essentialy we are detatched from the external world), but that probibility of contradiction is a strong indication of a process being unreliable.

Sure, and I wasn't really disputing that.

But people have contradictory perceptions all the time even in normal waking state. Essentially, we cannot claim that our normal waking state is actually "closer" to so-called objective reality than someone who is tripping balls on LSD or some other entheogen.

[siva_chair]

Weather or not this is true (and i dont think it is, it seems to fly in the face of a lot of psychology, linguistics and philosophy) is irelevant, i was explicitly talking about understanding of propositions and you definatley cant do that without language.

Well I don't believe thought itself is totally equivalent to language. The reverse is certainly true though, as language is the symbolic expression of thought (i.e. all language is thought, but not all thought is necessarily language). Language certainly helps facilitate higher order thinking, but I don't know for sure if it is a prerequisite for abstract thought itself.

I don't know if we can ever know for sure, as the two have seemed to evolved side by side and certainly help influence one another.

[peeted]

Give an example of contradictory experiences in a normal waking state, one which occurs enough, and to a high enough degree of subjectivity, to be comparable to the subjectivity experienced by someone on drugs.

[siva_chair]

People have apparently sincere contradictory testimony in court cases all the time. Same holds true with supposed paranormal experiences.

It still does not follow that our waking state is any closer to objective reality, as lots of aspects of our active perceptions are reinforced by thought/memory.

[Jude]

Weather or not this is true (and i dont think it is, it seems to fly in the face of a lot of psychology, linguistics and philosophy)
It doesn't fly in the face of psychology and linguistics at all, it actually fits right in with them, unless it's bad psychology or linguistics, and really the same for philosophy

Linguistic determinism is a ridiculous hypothesis and can be debunked by simply thinking about it for a few minutes you wouldn't even have to look at the evidence (which is also against it)


is irelevant, i was explicitly talking about understanding of propositions and you definatley cant do that without language.
Ya you can you just generally can't communicate it to someone else without language although you could, using for example visuals

[SugarCoatedSour]

Wow, I leave for an indefinite period of time and you guys go ahead and make interesting conversation. Doesn't really help my "feedback loop"

The objective truth is inside all subjects and is one which gives the division line of the middle path.

[Jude]

wat

[SugarCoatedSour]

sorry lsd made me say it.

[Jude]

that's the other thing is you see and think things while tripping that totally make sense but then when you think about them sober they don't

and people make the wrong assumption about which one to trust

[SugarCoatedSour]

Its because you're mentally incapable, and wouldn't be able to sort things out without instruction seemingly

[peeted]

It doesn't fly in the face of psychology and linguistics at all, it actually fits right in with them, unless it's bad psychology or linguistics, and really the same for philosophy

Linguistic determinism is a ridiculous hypothesis and can be debunked by simply thinking about it for a few minutes you wouldn't even have to look at the evidence (which is also against it)


Ya you can you just generally can't communicate it to someone else without language although you could, using for example visuals

Quote some psychology, linguistics and (analytic) philosophy which supports your claim, i have never come across any. Links to reputable sources would be good as well. If you can, and its not bunk, ill believe you.

Im especialy intrested to see anything on propositional understanding without language.

[TheNoonwardRace]

that's the other thing is you see and think things while tripping that totally make sense but then when you think about them sober they don't

and people make the wrong assumption about which one to trust
No, they are experiences, treat them as such.
Quote some psychology, linguistics and (analytic) philosophy which supports your claim, i have never come across any. Links to reputable sources would be good as well. If you can, and its not bunk, ill believe you.

Im especialy intrested to see anything on propositional understanding without language.How about I propose to punch you in the face? Would, then, you understand?

[peeted]

lol are you actualy a joke poster noonwardrace?

[TheNoonwardRace]

For someone who thinks the truths of the universe lie in mere phrases and words you do not understand them very well.

[TheNoonwardRace]

by the way.... what is the joke you see? you're confusing

[Jude]

Quote some psychology, linguistics and (analytic) philosophy which supports your claim, i have never come across any. Links to reputable sources would be good as well. If you can, and its not bunk, ill believe you.

Im especialy intrested to see anything on propositional understanding without language.

You should check out "The Stuff of Thought" by Steven Pinker which has a section debunking linguistic determinism. The book is about how human language reflects, not determines, the way we think and it's very readable (written for a lay audience by an expert) and entertaining

But really all you have to do is think about it

If I tell you that in German, there is a word "Schadenfreude" meaning pleasure taken in seeing the misfortune of others, your reaction will not be "I can't conceive of that emotion because I've never had a name for it!" It will be (assuming you haven't heard of Schadenfreude before) "Sweet, there's a word for that?" Same with "Sehnsucht" (a deep and nameless longing) another German emotion word we don't have in English.

That goes for basically anything you've never had a word for.

[siva_chair]

Thought as a System by David Bohm is a really good read too.

[K oko]

everything said and done here has been for entertainment purposes only nothing you have read was actually describes any real situation and is 100% bullshit

and with that we will sound off with grateful deads Trukin

...
Sometimes the lights all shinin on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me
what a long, strange trip its been.

[hismajestythepope]

I came up with a ****ing incredible idea.

I'm getting acid soon, so I'm going to read my sociology text book. ON ACID.

[Jude]

I had a lot of ideas of things I was gonna do on shrooms and none of them really panned out

[peeted]

You should check out "The Stuff of Thought" by Steven Pinker which has a section debunking linguistic determinism. The book is about how human language reflects, not determines, the way we think and it's very readable (written for a lay audience by an expert) and entertaining

But really all you have to do is think about it

If I tell you that in German, there is a word "Schadenfreude" meaning pleasure taken in seeing the misfortune of others, your reaction will not be "I can't conceive of that emotion because I've never had a name for it!" It will be (assuming you haven't heard of Schadenfreude before) "Sweet, there's a word for that?" Same with "Sehnsucht" (a deep and nameless longing) another German emotion word we don't have in English.

That goes for basically anything you've never had a word for.

Ill check the book out at some point this week. Your point about having a word to mean plesure etc doesnt really apply to my point though. I admited that it may be possible to have this sort of understanding without knowledge, but not propositional understanding. Its pretty much impossible to understand "language and words are meaningless" without language and words, its just a ridiculous thing to say. And it flys in the face of what you were just saying about the meaning of Schadenfreude as well because aparentley "its all completley meaningless dude, seriousley, wooha".

[hismajestythepope]

I had a lot of ideas of things I was gonna do on shrooms and none of them really panned out

shrooms =/= acid though

i get VERY attentive on acid

[Jude]

Ill check the book out at some point this week. Your point about having a word to mean plesure etc doesnt really apply to my point though. I admited that it may be possible to have this sort of understanding without knowledge, but not propositional understanding. Its pretty much impossible to understand "language and words are meaningless" without language and words, its just a ridiculous thing to say. And it flys in the face of what you were just saying about the meaning of Schadenfreude as well because aparentley "its all completley meaningless dude, seriousley, wooha".

I'm not the one saying everything is meaningless

Words have meanings because they represent thoughts

But they don't create the thoughts and aren't necessary for them

If humans had evolved telepathy to direct connect minds, we wouldn't need words because we could send mental representations straight to each other to communicate. As it is, we encode information about mental representations in arbitrarily symbolic words and those symbols trigger (hopefully) the same representations in the minds of the hearer as the receiver. This also can only work because our minds are structured the same way.

[Shadius]

I'm not the one saying everything is meaningless

Words have meanings because they represent thoughts

But they don't create the thoughts and aren't necessary for them

If humans had evolved telepathy to direct connect minds, we wouldn't need words because we could send mental representations straight to each other to communicate. As it is, we encode information about mental representations in arbitrarily symbolic words and those symbols trigger (hopefully) the same representations in the minds of the hearer as the receiver. This also can only work because our minds are structured the same way.

heres my sort fo random collection of thoughts about this;

If we all knew everything everyone was thinking all the time then human culture and socialisation would be totally different, and maybe we would never have evolved the same cognitive abilities that we have at our disposals today. I imagine we'd have pretty crappy short term or long term memory if it was "okay as long as someone in the collective remembers it", and really high emotional memory if everyone was telepathic.

human beings who don't learn language are much more restricted in their thought processes and can't communicate effectively (obviously). our cognitive abilities have evolved the way they have because we need to communicate and learn and adapt. without communication and linguistics we'd all be much more like every other animal, cognitively speaking.

about schardenfraude. this example dosn't necesserally debunk anything really. just because we don't have a single word for it dosn't mean we can't explain it using words, and we clearly can. the abstract thought obviously existed before any words could describe it, but without language why would someone think metacritically about their actions? "i was taking pleasure at that persons misfortune" would be irrelevant, and without language it would be much harder for humans to ascertain what someone taking pleasure in someones misfortune would even look like. without language these emotional states can't be discussed and compared.

without language there would be a lot less shared experience, and isolated individuals are capable having a lot less abstract thought, i would argue.

[Jude]

You're right in the sense that you can't communicate thoughts to others without using words (for the most part) since that's the mechanism we evolved to communicate

But it's not that people aren't able to think about things they don't have words for, it's just that by not being able to communicate, you would never get turned on to many of the ideas that people always trade around, which is not the same thing as only being able to think in words. This would result in not thinking some of those thoughts but there's no reason to assume that that means the words are the actual medium of thought

Animals like chimps don't have language but are able to think in terms of non-immediate things, like taking sticks, peeling them off, taking them to a termite nest and using them to fish for bugs to eat. This is evidence of cognition (which, considering the vast similarity between us and chimps, probably resembles ours in a lot of fundamental ways) which does not involve language. Considering that other apes also have some such abilities, our common ancestor with chimps almost certainly had them, yet we are the only branch of that family which evolved a capacity for language. The underlying thought processes go on all the time without words.

Another example that you don't even need science for; ever had something you completely can understand but can't find the right words to explain?

[Shadius]

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think it's just difficult to separate the two. I mean the other side of it is that a small percentage of communication is verbal or linguistic. Also, slightly side tracking; the fact that a lot of animals have their own languages, I saw on some nature documentary that these monkeys who live by rivers have like a few hundred "words" or "phrases" at their disposal, stuff like means things like "THERES A SNAKE! GET OUT OF THE WATER!". What was more fascinating was how some lower ranked monkeys would use these communications to decieve the other monkeys while they went and got food for themselves because normally higher ranks would bully them out of their own food. This use of language as deception shows some awesome cognitive and social abilities. A lot of primates are capable of these things, and have advanced social networks without linguistics per say.

I guess the fact remainds though that no other species has our cogntive prowess, and I would probably argue that this has something to do with our use of more advanced language. Our greatest strength as a species is our communication and co-operation to achieve goals, and contruct tools to allow us to ahcieve our goals, so it makes sense that those capable of remembering that wearing clothes is a good idea, and those that remember how to build spears in the least amount of training, and how to make a fire, and how to build a hut, and how to help others without getting in the way and pissing tem off and being killed. Without language as a facilitator these things would have been really difficult and I guess we either wouldn't have had the same mental abilities today, or it would have taken longer to get here? or not at all?

anyway, yeah, so I agree mostly. I do think that language can influence how people experience the world to some extent though. the maori tribe in new zealand traditionally has something like 2 words for carving up colour space. while we have like red blue green yellow, everything in between, etc. except they're wired up the same as us biologically. they experience the colours, without a doubt in my mind, but don't actively talk about it in such a way, which i suppose makes their abstract thoughts slightly different too. there linguistic psychological therapies available too, showing that how we use language can affect our state of mind internally, by the words we say, and how these words affect others and how they respond to us.

so like, language is important stuff. whats all this about lsd. also, the phrase "flying in the face of" was used far too much in this thread.

[fingers mccoy]

If I tell you that in German, there is a word "Schadenfreude" meaning pleasure taken in seeing the misfortune of others, your reaction will not be "I can't conceive of that emotion because I've never had a name for it!" It will be (assuming you haven't heard of Schadenfreude before) "Sweet, there's a word for that?" Same with "Sehnsucht" (a deep and nameless longing) another German emotion word we don't have in English.


We may not have had a word for it, but we still had a symbol for: a symbol in this case could easily be a phrase or sentence, which is made up of words. No one proposed that we had to have a discrete and unique sign for every discrete and unique concept, abstract or phenomenon. That is simplistic.

I'm not getting into this on a large scale, just speaking against the example itself.

[Shadius]

We may not have had a word for it, but we still had a symbol for: a symbol in this case could easily be a phrase or sentence, which is made up of words. No one proposed that we had to have a discrete and unique sign for every discrete and unique concept, abstract or phenomenon. That is simplistic.

I'm not getting into this on a large scale, just speaking against the example itself.

way to step on my point. :p

[fingers mccoy]

way to step on my point. :p

oh yeh sorry :lol: didnt read anything below his post

[Jude]

We may not have had a word for it, but we still had a symbol for: a symbol in this case could easily be a phrase or sentence, which is made up of words. No one proposed that we had to have a discrete and unique sign for every discrete and unique concept, abstract or phenomenon. That is simplistic.
Well the idea of mental representations for concepts is fairly crucial in cognitive psychology but given how fuzzy most concepts and definitions are, I think connectionism represents the way they are represented better than straight up computational theory

As for monkeys having language - they may have certain signal noises that mean certain things, but that is very different from language. The key part of language is that it's combinatorial and recursive, meaning any number of novel and abstract ideas can be constructed using it. It's different from just having "Ook" mean "look out there's a snake" and "Ugg" meaning "Let's groom and then bang each other."

Another thing about language is it involves formulaic grammar, not the prescriptive grammar of a style manual but the innate grammar proposed by Chomsky. All humans have the ability to learn languages and their grammar from exposure without direct instruction, but apes taught to use sign language do not show signs of organizing sentences in the way that even a young kid does, indicating there is a separate mental function going on from simply memorizing how to combine words. This is what Steven Pinker calls "the language instinct" in his book by that name and I think this mental "organ" is one thing that we have that no other animal does.

I agree that the evolution of language almost definitely facilitated and went alongside the evolution of our minds; the ability to exchange information in such a sophisticated way and the ability to process that information easily could feed off each other as drivers of sexual selection.