Israel strikes again [Archive] - Music & Musician Forums

BassRevelation0

12-27-2008, 03:11 PM

They (Hamas) did. But Israel's response was disproportionate and ill-timed. Right now Fatah is trying to reach an agreement with Hamas before the next scheduled elections. Israel's actions are disrupting that process.

For what's at stake, they will never say their responses are "ill-timed or disproportionate."
lol the truce was already broken because israel didn't lift the blockade or at least ease it.

and this is not about who started it anyway.
No, its not. Its about you realizing the hostility of one side while you turn a blind-eye to the other side, which is perpetuating it. We don't need a "let's bash Israel" thread every time something happens.

Surgicalgod

12-27-2008, 03:33 PM

siva_chair

12-27-2008, 05:14 PM

what? how did the thread i started become about me.

im not saying hamas aren't **** but they are the lesser evil here. israel will always be the offender no matter how you think of it.

the media makes it look like israel is always retaliating to what hamas is doing, while, in reality, it's the other way around. that said, i'm more disappointed in hamas for retaliating with poopty attacks that achieve nothing and then getting 1000x more in return.

People framing the situation like that is one of the things that is perpetuating this problem. Instead of realizing and pointing out how both sides are perpetuating it, you would rather try to focus all your criticisms to one side, which is not only intellectually dishonest, it does absolutely nothing to better the situation.

BassRevelation0

12-27-2008, 06:25 PM

im not saying hamas aren't **** but they are the lesser evil here. israel will always be the offender no matter how you think of it.
see what I mean?

the media makes it look like israel is always retaliating to what hamas is doing, while, in reality, it's the other way around. that said, i'm more disappointed in hamas for retaliating with poopty attacks that achieve nothing and then getting 1000x more in return.
thats Western media. Its no better or worse than Palestinian media, which report Israel's abuses and never condemn those Palestinians who kill innocents.

Shell

12-28-2008, 12:33 AM

You'd think hamas would learn. "Hmm Israel can probably kick our asses."

Already_Taken

12-28-2008, 01:02 AM

but they're willing to die for it so that doesn't matter. nobody ever just "learns" when they have deep convictions

mph4ever

12-28-2008, 05:15 AM

hamas and others need to get used to the fact that whilst america is the worlds only superpower then zionists interests will be protected

its also a bit rough just blowing up loads of people, civilians included, just to get a few votes. them jooz would do anything to maintain their poistion

Surgicalgod

12-28-2008, 07:56 AM

People framing the situation like that is one of the things that is perpetuating this problem. Instead of realizing and pointing out how both sides are perpetuating it, you would rather try to focus all your criticisms to one side, which is not only intellectually dishonest, it does absolutely nothing to better the situation.

see what I mean?

umm israel IS the offender....how is that criticizing one side more than the other? it's just FACT. i'm talking about the general situation here. israel occupied palestine thus making them the offender in the bigger picture.

and of course israel will always receive more criticism when they commit something as atrocious. you can't be like "oh both are wrong lets cut israel some slack! i mean hamas did fire rockets into israel..that justifies what israel did! so yeah both are wrong lets not criticize israel some more pls or that would be unfair. we dont want the international community to start hating israel whenever they commit massacres."

i only agree with you when one is discussing the general Palestinian-Israeli situation. other than that, i don't see how criticism can hurt.

siva_chair

12-28-2008, 09:28 AM

umm israel IS the offender....how is that criticizing one side more than the other? it's just FACT. i'm talking about the general situation here. israel occupied palestine thus making them the offender in the bigger picture.

No see they are both the offender. That is what you are failing to realize.

and of course israel will always receive more criticism when they commit something as atrocious. you can't be like "oh both are wrong lets cut israel some slack! i mean hamas did fire rockets into israel..that justifies what israel did! so yeah both are wrong lets not criticize israel some more pls or that would be unfair. we dont want the international community to start hating israel whenever they commit massacres."

I don't recall anyone saying that it "justifies" what Israel did.

i only agree with you when one is discussing the general Palestinian-Israeli situation. other than that, i don't see how criticism can hurt.

Because in your original post, you framed it as though this was some unprovoked attack by Israel. You made no mention of aggressions committed by Hamas. This is dishonest.

Surgicalgod

12-28-2008, 09:40 AM

No see they are both the offender. That is what you are failing to realize.

how about you explain that to me? i was under the impression it was arab land. you're making it sound like they are both fighting over land that was unoccupied before.

Because in your original post, you framed it as though this was some unprovoked attack by Israel. You made no mention of aggressions committed by Hamas. This is dishonest.

Oh sorry I didn't realize I was supposed to report professionally when posting a thread on the internet.

"guys look what israel did. in other news, hamas started it. discuss."

it was already mentioned in the link I posted anyway.

StreetlightRock

12-28-2008, 09:46 AM

The whole 'who started it' line of argument is at best childish and at worst destructive when dealing with I/P. Israel is there to stay and nothing, short of Hamas acquiring nukes, is going to change that.

siva_chair

12-28-2008, 10:41 AM

how about you explain that to me? i was under the impression it was arab land. you're making it sound like they are both fighting over land that was unoccupied before.

Umm both have initiated hostilities countless times in the last century, therefore they are both aggressors.

Oh sorry I didn't realize I was supposed to report professionally when posting a thread on the internet.

"guys look what israel did. in other news, hamas started it. discuss."

it was already mentioned in the link I posted anyway.

Well you really shouldn't be surprised when people claim you are being dishonest then.

SugarCoatedSour

12-28-2008, 10:59 AM

Everyone needs to regard TRUTH as AUTHORITY not AUTHORITY as TRUTH.

There is no right or wrong, and no one is more or less justified amongst people ( the general public). Therefore let the killing commence and I don't want to hear any nonsense about it. You guys do what you like but I'm gonna harvest me some jew noses.

Surgicalgod

12-28-2008, 12:16 PM

Palestinian people do not exist. "Palestinians" are just all the morons out there that hate the jews and want "Arab unity".

Regardless, it's never going to end until each side takes responsibility and actually wants peace. It isn't even close to happening. /obvious

i hope you're just a bad gimmick.....

Umm both have initiated hostilities countless times in the last century, therefore they are both aggressors.

yeah so what? palestinians are still defense. calling them offenders is only dishonest tbh....they may have been the offenders in some cases but not in the bigger picture.

Well you really shouldn't be surprised when people claim you are being dishonest then.

i never denied that hamas started it and it was already mentioned in the article. you're just trolling now.

SugarCoatedSour

12-28-2008, 12:31 PM

Alright I know we all secretly wanna boil the jews in a big pot....right? We're just saying we don't for the progress of conversation.

Already_Taken

12-28-2008, 12:31 PM

if someone kicked my grandpa off his land when he was my age, and i lived to hear about it, i would be pissed too. how are you going to just clear out the muslims who already live there (the most holy piece of land in the world to these people) and just give it to the jews cause you feel sorry for them?

And now the zionists feel they are only retaliating??? they are escalating, if anything sticking their thumbs in their ears and rubbing it in the rest of the middle east's face that they can't be touched. it's absolute bullshit, on top of the fact that people still think the land is holy. you'd think thousands of years of bloodshed over a place would leave a sour taste in some people's mouths.

SugarCoatedSour

12-28-2008, 12:33 PM

I think that the east is all about those kinds of strange flavors.

But a point is a point. People just can't seem to get the bare facts about the immediate situation, which doesn't have to be seen but can be felt throughout the world. But if anything; the places that do have these things happen should be educating our minds in how to go about life.

Already_Taken

12-28-2008, 12:34 PM

except pork

BassRevelation0

12-28-2008, 12:34 PM

umm israel IS the offender....how is that criticizing one side more than the other? it's just FACT.

That's your side of the story. This line of thinking is catastrophic.

i'm talking about the general situation here. israel occupied palestine thus making them the offender in the bigger picture.
If we're so general, then why make a thread with every specific instance? If its been established, why make some thread as if to give some reinforcement to your idea?

and of course israel will always receive more criticism when they commit something as atrocious. you can't be like "oh both are wrong lets cut israel some slack!
No, its the opposite. You all want to cut the Hezboz militants some slack.

SugarCoatedSour

12-28-2008, 12:37 PM

except pork

Maybe they've never had like those sweet and sour ribs, that could be the deciding factor. See human ignorance shows itself in the woodwork.

Already_Taken

12-28-2008, 12:40 PM

that just made me so hungry =[

SugarCoatedSour

12-28-2008, 12:41 PM

Your hunger is rubbing off on me. It's about time for the munchies to hit me too.

shaqadelic

12-28-2008, 02:24 PM

Haha this topic always bring me out from lurking.

People don't understand that daily Palestinian life is hell.

On a normal day, Palestinians hangs on to life by a thread.

Israel control the movement of supplies into the occupied territory and they don't let any in. When Palestinians are near death, small doses of supplies are allowed in, just enough to keep Palestinians alive to repeat the cycle.

Oppressed and angered, Palestinians turn to terrorism so that Israelis feel a tiny portion of suffering that Palestinians go through on a daily basis.

When you hear truce (as in 2008) and 'peace' negotiations (as in the 90s), Palestinians don't live better lives. They are still on the verge of death, kept alive to suffer, then cycle repeats. While Palestinians whither away, Israelis live life in comfort. But Palestinians are expected to not retaliate and just live with it. When they can't take no more and retaliate, they are the bad guys and Israel has a green light to wipe out another hundreds before tea time.

This status quo is not viable and any truce will fail with these conditions.

The 2008 truce was same ol story. Missile attacks were halted for a period of time but border crossings remain closed (read unbiased UN reports). Palestinians suffered with no food, medicines and electricity. Resistance eventually restarted again. Israel responds disproportionately.

Hamas is demanding a comprehensive ceasefire in Gaza and West Bank for the free movement of supplies. They have offered this for years.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 02:58 PM

One thing is for sure, blockading Gaza isn't helping anyone.

Surgicalgod

12-28-2008, 03:08 PM

That's your side of the story. This line of thinking is catastrophic.

you're an idiot. how is saying israel occupied palestine my side of the story? how are the events of 1948 my side of the story?

If we're so general, then why make a thread with every specific instance? If its been established, why make some thread as if to give some reinforcement to your idea?

i made this thread to see what people thought of this specific incident. wtf are you talking about anyway?

No, its the opposite. You all want to cut the Hezboz militants some slack.

wow you really do know your **** about the middle east.

if someone kicked my grandpa off his land when he was my age, and i lived to hear about it, i would be pissed too. how are you going to just clear out the muslims who already live there (the most holy piece of land in the world to these people) and just give it to the jews cause you feel sorry for them?

And now the zionists feel they are only retaliating??? they are escalating, if anything sticking their thumbs in their ears and rubbing it in the rest of the middle east's face that they can't be touched. it's absolute bullshit, on top of the fact that people still think the land is holy. you'd think thousands of years of bloodshed over a place would leave a sour taste in some people's mouths.

123123

Surgicalgod

12-28-2008, 03:14 PM

The 2008 truce was same ol story. Missile attacks were halted for a period of time but border crossings remain closed (read unbiased UN reports). Palestinians suffered with no food, medicines and electricity. Resistance eventually restarted again. Israel responds disproportionately.

yeah exactly. i think israel does this on purpose so they'd have an excuse to bomb the **** out of everyone and try to get rid of hamas. and then idiots like some people on this forum complain that hamas was the offender...as if attacking someone is only by missiles and rockets.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 03:30 PM

Lol, Hizbullah has nothing to do with this.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 05:15 PM

The state of Israel should not have been created. The ongoing conflict is a confirmation of this. The international community needs to stop supporting Israel as a state, and instead support the people of the area regardless of which side of the arguement they're on [if any, some are just trying to live]. Remove their biased "peacekeeping" and instead have a focus on aiding those who don't have food, electricity and water.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 06:32 PM

Israel is a state with six million people and it's not going away. To borrow Moshe Dayen's phrase, it's a fact on the ground. To ask the international community to not recognize it is absurd.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 06:53 PM

I'm not asking them to, I'm asking them to be unbiased in who their aid goes to, that's all.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 07:38 PM

Well, when you say something like "the international community needs to stop supporting Israel as a state," that's what I infer.

Their aid should go to whoever needs it most.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 08:33 PM

Read support as military aid.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 08:39 PM

Oh. That kind of aid.

Israel should not receive military aid from the United States because a) defense should be Israel's job and b) it only encourages the conflict. Maybe if their military aid was cut off they'd be smarter about engaging in military action.

Now I wait for the "oh noez evil j00z u nazi" posts because not excusing every single thing the state of Israel does is a direct criticism of the Jewish people.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 08:41 PM

Exactly what I was trying to say, lol.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 08:42 PM

Well then, it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

Similarly Saudi Arabia and Iran shouldn't be funding terrorist organizations like Hamas.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 08:45 PM

:):):)

I don't think any military aid should be allowed to be given between states unless it's sanctioned by the UN. Look at history; it causes more hard than good.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 08:49 PM

Yeah exactly. Humanitarian aid for the win (which Gaza needs badly).

Aaron

12-28-2008, 08:54 PM

I mean, not even international contracts for arms production unless sanctioned. We should be moving away from production and into disarmament, and allowing it to happen is stupid and serves no real purpose beyond a [fairly limited] fiscal one.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 09:07 PM

First we should focus on nuclear disarmament. Military disarmament sounds nice but I don't know how feasible it is for most places.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 09:10 PM

Although nuclear weapons are awful, the feasability of them being used is limited compared to that of landmines, grenades and ballistic missles. I've said it once before but, "it's not much of a state that you're protecting if every garden has a scud missle sitting in it."

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 09:13 PM

Well, some countries don't maintain armed forces like Iceland and Costa Rica. But those countries are hardly world powers. It's still worth keeping a (voluntary) military if only for defense purposes.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 09:14 PM

Yeah I agree, every state has a right to protect itself, but it's so disproportionate now that it's ridiculous. Imagine if Indonesia armed itself the way the US did? There'd be an uproar.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 09:18 PM

Yeah I've been saying for years that the US needs to drastically cut its military budget. Their public debt is huge, their education is failing and they don't have universal healthcare, but they can spend more on their armed forces than the other top ten militaries combined?

BassRevelation0

12-28-2008, 10:04 PM

you're an idiot. how is saying israel occupied palestine my side of the story? how are the events of 1948 my side of the story?
You're a bigger idiot for thinking there's only one side to the story.

i made this thread to see what people thought of this specific incident. wtf are you talking about anyway?
Then lets discuss the specific event without resorting to useless chatter like "Israel is the offender regardless of this event."

Again you will never condemn anyone in a specific instance because you believe in "The bigger picture" that Israel is always the offender. There is no rational discourse that can evolve from this.

wow you really do know your **** about the middle east.
Indeed I do.

If you think I misspelled the word, you don't know a lick of Hebrew.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 10:06 PM

Uh, I study both Arabic and Hebrew and the word Hezbollah (actually I prefer Hizbullah) is Arabic and means "party of God." So I don't know what you're talking about.

BassRevelation0

12-28-2008, 10:10 PM

of course you wouldn't. Its a negative variation.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 10:12 PM

BassRevelation, why don't you bring something new to the table instead of arguing spelling.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 10:14 PM

of course you wouldn't. Its a negative variation.I've never heard of it. Care to provide the original spelling? 'Cause these things interest me.

Mr. Ron

12-28-2008, 10:18 PM

I don't really "support" either side, but I'd be pissed off too if people who weren't even from where I lived decided to kick me out.

BassRevelation0

12-28-2008, 10:31 PM

BassRevelation, why don't you bring something new to the table instead of arguing spelling.

get out
I've never heard of it. Care to provide the original spelling? 'Cause these things interest me.
sry man I don't have Hebrew lettering installed on my comp.

Nor do I continue my Hebrew studies

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 10:33 PM

Well I found about 900 Google hits for "hezboz" so it can't be all that common.

shaqadelic

12-28-2008, 10:44 PM

People need to start dealing Hamas as the legitimate, elected government. Terrorist or not, their offer is sound. Truce for free movement of supplies and people.

Speaking of Hamas, there seem to be a misconception that life is all well in Fatah-controlled West Bank.

Like Gaza, there is no free movement of supplies. People are impoverished of food and medicine.

Unique to West Bank, they have the wall, settlement, settlers abuse and thousand of checkpoints to make life unbearable.

In short, people are suffering just as in Gaza.

All these even when West Bank is controlled by Fatah. Abbas has failed. He accepted having photo opp negotiation while the people suffer.

and then idiots like some people on this forum complain that hamas was the offender...as if attacking someone is only by missiles and rockets.

Westerners don't grasp the hardship of daily Palestinian life. When there is a truce, they think Palestinians live good, comfortable lives. They think Palestinians in truce wake up in the morning, have some falafel and tea for breakfast, then goto Jordan for holiday shopping, then visit relatives in Egypt. All in time for dinner.

When violence restarts again, Westerners can't grasp why Palestinians rather fight than shop in Jordan.

Aaron

12-28-2008, 10:52 PM

get out
You're an idiot.

Iskandar

12-28-2008, 11:04 PM

People need to start dealing Hamas as the legitimate, elected government. Terrorist or not, their offer is sound. Truce for free movement of supplies and people.Hamas lost their legitimacy when they fought Fatah and were exiled to Gaza. Fatah is recognized as the representative of the Palestinian people. It's not a good situation but pending the scheduled elections it's what they have.
Speaking of Hamas, there seem to be a misconception that life is all well in Fatah-controlled West Bank.

Like Gaza, there is no free movement of supplies. People are impoverished of food and medicine.

Unique to West Bank, they have the wall, settlement, settlers abuse and thousand of checkpoints to make life unbearable.

In short, people are suffering just as in Gaza.

All these even when West Bank is controlled by Fatah. Abbas has failed. He accepted having photo opp negotiation while the people suffer.The Palestinian Authority is severely limited by their lack of self-governance. Israel has such tight control on the area that their ability to govern is compromised. Let me remind you that Israel set up the wall and checkpoint and defends the settlers.

The real accomplishment of Abbas, and the reason I support Fatah, is because Israel is willing to negotiate with him. Fatah recognizes Israel which Hamas refuses to do.

BassRevelation0

12-28-2008, 11:16 PM

People need to start dealing Hamas as the legitimate, elected government. Terrorist or not, their offer is sound. Truce for free movement of supplies and people.

Illegitimate leaders can be elected too.

I did find it odd that the CIA did not find need to interfere in the process

shaqadelic

12-28-2008, 11:43 PM

Hamas lost their legitimacy when they fought Fatah and were exiled to Gaza. Fatah is recognized as the representative of the Palestinian people. It's not a good situation but pending the scheduled elections it's what they have.

Hamas is legitimate cause they were elected by the Palestinian people. They also have shown sound credibility. Their offer of total truce for free movement of supplies, stop in settlement and wall activity has been on the table since the last uprising. Unfortunately like the Arab Peace Initiative it has been ignored.

The Palestinian Authority is severely limited by their lack of self-governance. Israel has such tight control on the area that their ability to govern is compromised.

And they have failed. Going into truce and peace negotiation while ordinary Palestinians continue to suffer is a bad decision. It has failed in the 90s negotiation where while Israelis live in the comfort of truce, Palestinian lives is worse than before the truce.

Let me remind you that Israel set up the wall and checkpoint and defends the settlers.

The wall and checkpoint has gone above protection for the illegitimate settlers while they abuse Palestinians. It is a tool for usurpation and territorial claims.

The real accomplishment of Abbas, and the reason I support Fatah, is because Israel is willing to negotiate with him. Fatah recognizes Israel which Hamas refuses to do.

You support Fatah cause Israel has found a partner that they can bully and have meaningless photo opp negotiation with while Palestinians on the ground continue to suffer.

Iskandar

12-29-2008, 12:09 AM

Hamas is legitimate cause they were elected by the Palestinian people. They also have shown sound credibility. Their offer of total truce for free movement of supplies, stop in settlement and wall activity has been on the table since the last uprising. Unfortunately like the Arab Peace Initiative it has been ignored.Hamas' demands will continue to be ignored while they refuse to recognize Israel. But what I'm getting at is that they ceased to be the government long ago. Fatah is in charge and they're who Israel is negotiating with - or were, before this mess began.
And they have failed. Going into truce and peace negotiation while ordinary Palestinians continue to suffer is a bad decision. It has failed in the 90s negotiation where while Israelis live in the comfort of truce, Palestinian lives is worse than before the truce.Peace is the only chance Palestine has for gaining statehood and developing its economy. Dominance by Israel and reliance on foreign aid will only continue the cycle of poverty, despair and violence.
The wall and checkpoint has gone above protection for the illegitimate settlers while they abuse Palestinians. It is a tool for usurpation and territorial claims.Yeah, never doubted that.
You support Fatah cause Israel has found a partner that they can bully and have meaningless photo opp negotiation with while Palestinians on the ground continue to suffer.I support them because they're not extremists. Hamas will never accomplish anything meaningful until they renounce terrorism and recognize Israel.

Amit

12-29-2008, 12:20 AM

When will Americans and Israelis realize that more bombs don't lead to less terrorism?

Already_Taken

12-29-2008, 02:01 AM

if u bomb everyone it works great, we're just too indecisive to follow through with our real wishes

PunkItUp

12-29-2008, 02:07 AM

:wave:

PunkItUp

12-29-2008, 02:07 AM

well i don't follow this stuff too closely because i think both sides are poopy heads but i just saw a live CNN report that said Israel are "ramping up" the air strikes today

poopty doo

12:00am PST USA btw

Already_Taken

12-29-2008, 02:09 AM

fukin jews

Amit

12-29-2008, 02:28 AM

if u bomb everyone it works great, we're just too indecisive to follow through with our real wishes

the only way that works if we kill everyone in the world including americans

McP3000

12-29-2008, 02:33 AM

not true

you can live a few people alive

Amit

12-29-2008, 02:36 AM

yea but some of them will become terrorists just because they're dix or their kids will be

shaqadelic

12-29-2008, 02:43 AM

Hamas' demands will continue to be ignored while they refuse to recognize Israel. But what I'm getting at is that they ceased to be the government long ago. Fatah is in charge and they're who Israel is negotiating with - or were, before this mess began.

The people elected Hamas. That is all that is needed to be the representative of the Palestinian people. This is democracy the way I see it.

Peace is the only chance Palestine has for gaining statehood and developing its economy. Dominance by Israel and reliance on foreign aid will only continue the cycle of poverty, despair and violence.

I don't dispute that.

My point is peace settlement require comprehensive truce and people must not suffer.

How can a peace negotiation go on if a truce means Israelis live without fear of attacks while Palestinians hang on by a thread? constantly impoverished on the verge of death, threatened to be cleansed to Jordan, and usurped by settlers and the separation walls. This status quo failed in the 90s, in the 2008, and it will never work.

I support them because they're not extremists.

If extremist means attacking civilians and civilian areas, then Palestinian (Fatah and Hamas) and Israelis fit the definition well. None are better than the other.

If extremist means refusing to be bullied, then Hamas better be extremist.

Hamas will never accomplish anything meaningful until they renounce terrorism and recognize Israel.

The preconditions set by Israel "recognize this, recognize that" is a stonewalling tactic. Fatah has done all of that have nothing to show in the West Bank.

On the subject of preconditions, I don't object both side renouncing attacks on civilians and civilian area. It will naturally fit with Hamas comprehensive truce offer, which is the ideal precondition for final negotiation.

Recognition, on the other hand, should only be given at the final peace settlement. But that;'s another topic for another day.

Already_Taken

12-29-2008, 05:57 AM

any jew living in isreal may as well enlist in the jewish (american?) army, cause otherwise they'd live in the usa, and i don't feel sorry when they die. this is some modern day crusade bullshit, all set up by hitler who was secretly a jew trying to gain control of the holy lands once again.

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 06:12 AM

You're a bigger idiot for thinking there's only one side to the story.

care to elaborate? of course not because you're dumb.

Then lets discuss the specific event without resorting to useless chatter like "Israel is the offender regardless of this event."

Again you will never condemn anyone in a specific instance because you believe in "The bigger picture" that Israel is always the offender. There is no rational discourse that can evolve from this.

yeah we need to forgive and forget whenever israel does something stupid and just go to peace negotiations. we can't call israel offenders or criticize them because that would be antisemitic and they would be heartbroken :(

Indeed I do.

If you think I misspelled the word, you don't know a lick of Hebrew

hahahaha pls dont give me that......you thought hamas was hezbollah and you even misspelled that so lol

and id like to know where the word "hezboz" comes from it makes no sense in both arabic and hebrew...unless its slang for hezbollah which still makes you look like an idiot btw.

so stop crying and post rationally. in other words, stop giving general unbacked statements like "yeah you think theres only one side to the story" or "if you think I misspelled it you dont know a lick of hebrew". how about you start proving me wrong instead of whining?

Westerners don't grasp the hardship of daily Palestinian life. When there is a truce, they think Palestinians live good, comfortable lives. They think Palestinians in truce wake up in the morning, have some falafel and tea for breakfast, then goto Jordan for holiday shopping, then visit relatives in Egypt. All in time for dinner.

When violence restarts again, Westerners can't grasp why Palestinians rather fight than shop in Jordan.

yeah most people assume the truce was really good for the gazans until hamas ruined it.

When will Americans and Israelis realize that more bombs don't lead to less terrorism?

idk really its getting ridiculous.

PunkItUp

12-29-2008, 06:59 AM

w/e surgicalgod says bcuz he is a vocalist from the region :)

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 08:05 AM

yes pls listen to me

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 08:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZBaLNJ7xUY

4:20 watch as livni dodges questions lol

Give me Beer

12-29-2008, 08:43 AM

Livni is such a cunt. How can you talk about wanting peace while authorizing actions like that. We did everything we could ... so how about you try to let people in Gaza live a life that isn't one thread removed from starvation? Is she seriously stating that the Israeli army is only capable of throwing bombs this way?

I dislike Hamas, but this is just BS.

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 09:24 AM

yeah she makes it sound like they left gazans live peacefully and hamas didn't like it because terrorists hate peace you see.

Light Fantastic

12-29-2008, 10:35 AM

It's the most depressing world situation around right now.

no its not tons of stupid people are dying its good for the world

Foehammer

12-29-2008, 10:51 AM

THANK YOU.
Made me happy chad

Give me Beer

12-29-2008, 11:01 AM

no its not tons of stupid people are dying its good for the world

I wonder what the reaction to that would've been on here if you had said that in reference to 9/11, the Madrid or the London bombings.

Light Fantastic

12-29-2008, 11:32 AM

I wonder what the reaction to that would've been on here if you had said that in reference to 9/11, the Madrid or the London bombings.

well the reaction is irrelevant to it being fact

but the ratio of smart people to stupid ones is higher in those countries so its less of a good thing for the world anyway

Super Batman

12-29-2008, 11:40 AM

well the reaction is irrelevant to it being fact

but the ratio of smart people to stupid ones is higher in those countries so its less of a good thing for the world anyway

Nicely put.

I agree with this post, and the one above.

Realism is better than idealism.
:thumb:

SugarCoatedSour

12-29-2008, 12:10 PM

I don't care about the events of 9/11. America should just make some square-jawed, klingon nosed, hairy little devils with Israel and then proceed to quell the terrorist surge.

Mr. Ron

12-29-2008, 12:12 PM

lol wut

Amit

12-29-2008, 12:19 PM

wut lol

SugarCoatedSour

12-29-2008, 12:23 PM

You heard me. Hairy little bastards brandishing claws on every hand.

Amit

12-29-2008, 12:25 PM

that's like velociraptors rite

SugarCoatedSour

12-29-2008, 12:28 PM

Ya, just about. They'll take your gold. Rip the pockets right off of you.

That and they have this keen sense of smell, they know when there's gold around. And they can debate the meaning of a single idea indefinitely.

Amit

12-29-2008, 12:33 PM

And they can debate the meaning of a single idea indefinitely.

i didn't know aquinas was a jewlociraptor

SugarCoatedSour

12-29-2008, 12:37 PM

Well they're as perennial as the grass. And they even pass their techniques and mannerisms to others very easily.

BassRevelation0

12-29-2008, 01:38 PM

care to elaborate? of course not because you're dumb.
Idiot.

Does it take someone to tell you that Israel does not view themselves as the occupiers to know there are more than one side to every conflict? Do you realize your foolish line of thinking will accomplish nothing?

yeah we need to forgive and forget whenever israel does something stupid and just go to peace negotiations. we can't call israel offenders or criticize them because that would be antisemitic and they would be heartbroken :(
oh look you don't understand simple statements no wonder why you idiots can't solve ****

hahahaha pls dont give me that......you thought hamas was hezbollah and you even misspelled that so lol
No idiot we're talking about "The bigger picture," unless you refer to an elected Hamas govt as militants, which I wouldn't disagree with you there
and id like to know where the word "hezboz" comes from it makes no sense in both arabic and hebrew...unless its slang for hezbollah which still makes you look like an idiot btw.
You don't understand therefore i'm the idiot?

so stop crying and post rationally.

seems you're the one bitching.

come up with something new or shut up

Super Batman

12-29-2008, 01:42 PM

Idiot.

Does it take someone to tell you that Israel does not view themselves as the occupiers to know there are more than one side to every conflict? Do you realize your foolish line of thinking will accomplish nothing?

oh look you don't understand simple statements no wonder why you idiots can't solve ****

No idiot we're talking about "The bigger picture," unless you refer to an elected Hamas govt as militants, which I wouldn't disagree with you there

You don't understand therefore i'm the idiot?

so stop crying and post rationally. in other words, stop giving general unbacked statements like "yeah you think theres only one side to the story" or "if you think I misspelled it you dont know a lick of hebrew". how about you start proving me wrong instead of whining?

yeah most people assume the truce was really good for the gazans until hamas ruined it.

idk really its getting ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like you got trolled and answered like an idiot, yourself.

THE_KING

12-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Why must mine people fight each other?

Fight me instead, my people.

DO NOT TAKE BLOWS I WILL TAKE THEM FOR YOU, MY PEOPLE

my people...

Against Miik!

12-29-2008, 02:40 PM

I know Barack has been on vacation, but does anybody know how he has responded to the recent attacks?

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 02:46 PM

Idiot.

Does it take someone to tell you that Israel does not view themselves as the occupiers to know there are more than one side to every conflict? Do you realize your foolish line of thinking will accomplish nothing?

oh so because israel doesn't view itself as an occupier therefore they're not. thats pretty smart.

fact is israel occupied palestine....how can that be my side of the story? it's ****ing fact. go read a history book.

oh look you don't understand simple statements no wonder why you idiots can't solve ****

cry cry cry...what? i loved the you idiots part btw.

seems to me you're an evangelical christian jewlover or maybe just a jew who hates arabs and is supporting israel only because they're jew. amirite?

No idiot we're talking about "The bigger picture," unless you refer to an elected Hamas govt as militants, which I wouldn't disagree with you there

what are you talking about? do you even know what militant means?

You don't understand therefore i'm the idiot?

no you thought hamas are hezbollah then pretended your bad spelling is an hebrew word we all dont know of (because ur v elite and know ur hebrew well) therefore ur the idiot yes.

seems you're the one bitching.

come up with something new or shut up

umm thats basically what i said to you and im the one whos supposed to come up with something new?

Surgicalgod

12-29-2008, 02:47 PM

I know Barack has been on vacation, but does anybody know how he has responded to the recent attacks?

A top adviser to Barack Obama said the president-elect is monitoring Israel’s intense air offensive against Gaza rocket squads and Hamas members but declined comment on the fresh Mideast crisis, deferring to the Bush administration.

"President Bush speaks for the United States until Jan. 20 and we’re going to honor that," Axelrod said Sunday.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/2008_12_28_Barack_Obama_monitors_Israeli_attacks_o n_Gaza/

Iskandar

12-29-2008, 03:01 PM

Recognition, on the other hand, should only be given at the final peace settlement.Fatah already recognizes Israel. There's no reason Hamas can't. It'd be an important gesture.

Against Miik!

12-29-2008, 03:04 PM

A top adviser to Barack Obama said the president-elect is monitoring Israel’s intense air offensive against Gaza rocket squads and Hamas members but declined comment on the fresh Mideast crisis, deferring to the Bush administration.

A smart political move, I suppose. But considering he has spoken out as a Palestinian sympathizer (not recently, of course), it will be interesting to see the course of action he takes once he is president.

wartomods

12-29-2008, 04:00 PM

Why must mine people fight each other?

Fight me instead, my people.

DO NOT TAKE BLOWS I WILL TAKE THEM FOR YOU, MY PEOPLE

my people...

Jesus is that you

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 12:26 PM

palestine should never look to an american for help. the zionists have that one cornered already. i am disappointed that israel would not work with france on a 48 hour ceasefire for humanitarian purposes.

palestine needs nukes, that'd make the zionist's listen

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 12:36 PM

Yes because arming an impoverished and reactionary group of people with weapons that can take out huge chunks of humanity is certainly a Nobel-prize worthy idea.

Already_Taken

12-31-2008, 12:41 PM

almost as worthy as stealing the land a bunch of people live on to give to the jews cause we feel sorry for them.

almost.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 12:42 PM

That was probably a bad idea too.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 12:48 PM

Yes because arming an impoverished and reactionary group of people with weapons that can take out huge chunks of humanity is certainly a Nobel-prize worthy idea.

if everyone has one then no one will use one

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 12:51 PM

Oh no, not you too.

Non-proliferation ftw.

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 01:08 PM

I think we should just make jews cannibalize each other for the next holocaust. Then we can use the food that they'd naturally consume to give to other needier more deserving people's

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 01:12 PM

if everyone has one then no one will use one

Except those that just want to see the world burn.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 01:12 PM

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 01:24 PM

sure, **** it, controlling it isn't working and america and russia could completely revive their economies if they were to sell off their old stock. its not like they go out of date or anything. no matter whether its 50s prototype or an ultra modern unit, no one wants to be a ground zero when those babies go off

either israel abandons all hope and sends its people wandering with a star attached until the next fairytale supported exodus or palestinians should be armed similar to the zionists

on a side note. i have just read the history of jerusalam by karen armstrong again. if anyone wants to see how ridiculous the zionist claims are then they should read this. strangely it also totally rubbishes christianity unintentionally. all based on fact mind you

Yes. It's kind of strange how the link between the two religions isn't constantly under the scope. Besides the jews don't really give much heed to them rearing "the christ" an all important superstar of human morals. I guess both religions are fundamentally different for a reason, Christianity does all the foot work and jewism banks the important stuff like land and influence.

I guess the bare truth, or the roots dwell in paganism and the masonic cults and what not. The ones that raised the foundation have the key; which is the ability to see through the transitory poop we worship, or has been made for our worship.

hismajestythepope

12-31-2008, 01:25 PM

i can sympathize with jews who want to found a nation where people of their religious persuasion arent a minority, because ****, so many people hate jewish people. i can understand why they might want to claim jerusalem etc. for historic reasons i guess, but yeah religious wars suck.

however its pretty much what any other nation would do were they in israel's position. think about it. say white people in texas were bombing mexican people in texas, wouldnt mexico take action? maybe try to make a major example to deter further action?

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 01:28 PM

Wars are just a weeding out process. And religion is useless, absolutely useless. Hey my moral values carry a brandname!

yogerto

12-31-2008, 01:29 PM

guys everyone is gonna die cept me cuz i am the son of god an the pope of the church of dope

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 01:30 PM

I think people are exaggerating the connection between Christianity and Judaism here. The US isn't even a Christian nation, so wtf?

The US doesn't support Israel because it is a Jewish nation, it supports it because of geo-political economic reasons and as a springboard to influence the region.

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 01:33 PM

I seriously seriously doubt it. If that was the case there would suddenly be a big split in the US foreign aid policy and the jews would have to deal with a lot less American wares and funds. Why not shift the attention 50/50 to Iraq, they can stand to gain plenty from using Iraq as a watchtower over middle east/europe/asia (not to say I'd condone that)

But ya the Americans are a tofu brand of religion.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 01:40 PM

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 01:51 PM

They're not really a resource though, I think that's where all this debate is coming from. It's merely an alliance of which Israel's gaining a large benefit from. Arguably America is building a true cult of personality over their dealings with them and.....wow semantics, basically I'm just mowing over what you said.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 01:59 PM

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 02:03 PM

jesus was a jew, no exaggeration required

He was also put to death through Jewish orthodoxy....

And the Muslims claim Jesus as a prophet, whereas the Jews do not. In actuality, Christians have more in common with Islam with respects to Jesus than they do the Jews.

The US doesn't support Israel because the US is Christian (it isn't) and Israel is Jewish.

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 02:09 PM

That's already been established (let's hope) But the fact remains that by "history" Jesus was of jewish descent. Shouldn't it put us at war that they killed our christian "savior" and then on top of that denied his claim to religious fame??

Uhuh because Jesus is a fabricated tale based on many of the same stories that predated him. It's merely a diversionary tactic to not only demonize paganism but turn our focus away from nature which naturally replenishes all things. While they have their finger pointed in which ever direction they have the freedom to pickpocket us while we're looking away.

I mean if all we do is worship man then we're only trying to race ourselves as we are firmly planted. Man is transitory and therefore no focus should be given to one who leads (for he/she will die and we won't follow unless we're ****ed in the brain), we should give awe to the man who unites, idealizes, and demonstrates while completely free from influence of other man.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 02:19 PM

He was also put to death through Jewish orthodoxy....

And the Muslims claim Jesus as a prophet, whereas the Jews do not. In actuality, Christians have more in common with Islam with respects to Jesus than they do the Jews.

The US doesn't support Israel because the US is Christian (it isn't) and Israel is Jewish.

why don't they show him without a loin cloth? the principle debate after jesus' death was whether circumcision was required or not. now don't tell me that the jews were not invovlved.

muslims claim you go to heaven full of virgins if you walk across a field full of landmines. i wouldn't put too much faith in what they claim

SugarCoatedSour

12-31-2008, 02:22 PM

It's ironic you should say that about the muslims, having the avatar that you do and all.

In the case of self-sacrifice it's half human nature, half something or other.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 02:22 PM

why don't they show him without a loin cloth?

Oh maybe because photography wouldn't be invented for another couple millennia or so idk?

the principle debate after jesus' death was whether circumcision was required or not. now don't tell me that the jews were not invovlved.

Where did I say Jews weren't involved?

muslims claim you go to heaven full of virgins if you walk across a field full of landmines. i wouldn't put too much faith in what they claim

And I don't even recall where that even is in the Koran. You would think someone would ask for a page number or a passage number on that one.

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 02:35 PM

I don't see the point in ignoring the substantial evangelical Christian vote in America. These people, not American Jews, influence America's policy towards Israel. Politicians can't afford to lose their votes. At the same time, there are lots of Jews who are Zionists of course, though many are not.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 02:44 PM

Sure, but if you honestly think that Evangelical Christians (not all of which actually care about Israel itself, tbh) are the primary reason the US gives as much support to Israel as it does, you are sorely overlooking the fact that Israel provides a springboard of sorts to influence in the region. The US government really doesn't care about the religious aspect of it, they are more concerned with the geo-political influence to be gained, and Israel is much more open to that kind of agenda than Islamic nations tend to be.

I think it is fairly obvious in our dealings with places like Saudi Arabia where our true interests are, and it has nothing to do with what happened thousands of years ago.

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 02:49 PM

Claiming to be the world's biggest exporter of liberty and democracy while propping up one of the worst human rights violators in the world with petrodollars is hilarious.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 02:52 PM

Oh maybe because photography wouldn't be invented for another couple millennia or so idk?

they had paintings

Where did I say Jews weren't involved?

you said that the jews did not claim him as a prophet

And I don't even recall where that even is in the Koran. You would think someone would ask for a page number or a passage number on that one.

in reward for being true to allah then

koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing
cup.

koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris
(virgins) we shall wed them...

koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched
before. Then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny ?"

koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favors of your Lord
will you deny ?"

koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "

koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins
sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 02:55 PM

What do virgins have to do with minefields?

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 02:57 PM

What do virgins have to do with minefields?

apparently if you die for allah then they can be one of the rewards, them and young boys and water

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 03:00 PM

apparently if you die for allah then they can be one of the rewards, them and young boys and waterTaking the Qur'an's descriptions of paradise and equating that with blowing yourself up is quite a stretch. You won't find a passage in the Qur'an that says "blow yourself up in a crowd full of Jews and you'll get 72 virgins." That's an Orientalist misconception, that this viewpoint is commonly held within Islam.

Really all that testifies to is humanity's infinite propensity to turn religion into a harmful, destructive ideology for their own gain. Every religion does it, including proportedly peaceful ones like Hinduism.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 03:00 PM

Claiming to be the world's biggest exporter of liberty and democracy while propping up one of the worst human rights violators in the world with petrodollars is hilarious.

Actually there are many more that are far worse, but yes, you are right it is hilarious. The US is hypocritical, we get it.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 03:04 PM

they had paintings

So what an artist can paint something anyway they want.

you said that the jews did not claim him as a prophet

Yeah no **** but that doesn't mean they weren't involved in the area culture to influence things.

in reward for being true to allah then

koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing
cup.

koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris
(virgins) we shall wed them...

koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched
before. Then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny ?"

koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favors of your Lord
will you deny ?"

koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "

koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins
sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..

Hey maybe I should join Islam, because I haven't seen a virgin anywhere for a long time...I was starting to wonder if they were a myth, but it just turns out the Muslims are hoarding them all....hmm

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 03:05 PM

Actually there are many more that are far worse, but yes, you are right it is hilarious. The US is hypocritical, we get it.Than Saudi Arabia? Well, some, but it's pretty high on the list. North Korea, Burma and Sudan come to mind.

If you mistakenly thought I meant Israel well they unique in that treat their own citizens well but routinely violate the human rights of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Now of course I need to put a disclaimer about the Palestinians doing the same lest I be branded an anti-Semite or "Islamofascist."

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 03:08 PM

Than Saudi Arabia? Well, some, but it's pretty high on the list. North Korea, Burma and Sudan come to mind.

Oh I thought you were talking about Israel my bad.

If you mistakenly thought I meant Israel well they unique in that treat their own citizens well but routinely violate the human rights of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Now of course I need to put a disclaimer about the Palestinians doing the same lest I be branded an anti-Semite or "Islamofascist."

No, you'd only be called that if you make threads that constantly criticize Israel and repeatedly fail and completely neglect to point out violence from the Palestinian source. :thumb:

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 03:12 PM

No, you'd only be called that if you make threads that constantly criticize Israel and repeatedly fail and completely neglect to point out violence from the Palestinian source. :thumb:I don't do that. I have no problem with most of the Israel parties except the fundamentalist ones and their domestic policy. What I have a problem with is their foreign policy and treatment of the Palestinians. Similarly I have no problem with most Palestinians (I feel sorry for them mostly) but I hate Hamas. I try to be fair to both sides because I support both Israel's and Palestine's right to statehood. I think most people would agree that we just want to see them live together in peace.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 03:17 PM

I don't do that. I have no problem with most of the Israel parties except the fundamentalist ones and their domestic policy. What I have a problem with is their foreign policy and treatment of the Palestinians. Similarly I have no problem with most Palestinians (I feel sorry for them mostly) but I hate Hamas. I try to be fair to both sides because I support both Israel's and Palestine's right to statehood. I think most people would agree that we just want to see them live together in peace.

I know you don't do that. That is a good thing.

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 03:20 PM

I can't believe there are still people out there who believe one side has a claim to all the land, but there are.

siva_chair

12-31-2008, 03:23 PM

Well they can't all be winners, can they?

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 03:42 PM

Taking the Qur'an's descriptions of paradise and equating that with blowing yourself up is quite a stretch. You won't find a passage in the Qur'an that says "blow yourself up in a crowd full of Jews and you'll get 72 virgins." That's an Orientalist misconception, that this viewpoint is commonly held within Islam.

Really all that testifies to is humanity's infinite propensity to turn religion into a harmful, destructive ideology for their own gain. Every religion does it, including proportedly peaceful ones like Hinduism.

just pointing out how stupid all these reward scheme religions are. why can't people do things for the benefit of mankind instead of their own greed.

So what an artist can paint something anyway they want.

i know, there are no contemporary records to support the messiah myth. if only there were records of his circumcision then half the atrocities of the world would never have happened and the arabs would not have needed to exist

Yeah no **** but that doesn't mean they weren't involved in the area culture to influence things.

sure they had influence. still do

Hey maybe I should join Islam, because I haven't seen a virgin anywhere for a long time...I was starting to wonder if they were a myth, but it just turns out the Muslims are hoarding them all....hmm
well virgin boys are just as popular.
I can't believe there are still people out there who believe one side has a claim to all the land, but there are.
sure there is little claim but you would think that israel in their efforts would try and accomodate the palestinian claims a little more. and the less they do then the more i think they actually knwo that waht they have done is worng. and if they know it is worng then maybe they should back off and let the palestinians accommodate them rather than the other way around

Jude

12-31-2008, 03:44 PM

You really can't belittle the influence of stupid Americans on our support for Israel. On the right, there's neocons and retarded evangelicals, the latter being a crucial base of support for the Republican party - so the GOP is solidly in. On the left, you have the rationale that Israel is the only democracy in the region and we feel bad about the Holocaust and centuries of anti-Semitism, not to mention Jews of varying political stripes, some of whom are Zionists and some of whom just automatically love Israel even if they've never been anywhere besides Brooklyn and Florida.

It's not just for strategic reasons. The fact that it jeopardizes our relations with the whole Arab world - not to mention makes us gigantic hypocrites - means Israel is really something of a liability.

Iskandar

12-31-2008, 03:44 PM

sure there is little claim but you would think that israel in their efforts would try and accomodate the palestinian claims a little more.
The problem is the extremist parties who have a disproportionate amount of influence in the Knesset. According to these people, any territorial concession is a security threat.
i know, there are no contemporary records to support the messiah myth. if only there were records of his circumcision then half the atrocities of the world would never have happened and the arabs would not have needed to existWat? Arabs existed before Jesus did.

mph4ever

12-31-2008, 03:50 PM

The problem is the extremist parties who have a disproportionate amount of influence in the Knesset. According to these people, any territorial concession is a security threat.

and you can't blame since any weakiening would lead to erosion of their power. it has happened so many times throughout history. not saying they are right, jsut that i can apreciate why they would be concerned

Wat? Arabs existed before Jesus did.
just checking who is awake.

gregulus

01-01-2009, 01:20 PM

I can't believe there are still people out there who believe one side has a claim to all the land, but there are.

This can be extended to people who think that one side is the sole antagonist.

pilumneer

01-01-2009, 01:44 PM

Israel doesn't even need the help to be honest, they can survive on their own.

Jude

01-01-2009, 02:17 PM

Israel doesn't even need the help to be honest, they can survive on their own.

And if they can't, serves 'em right for violating human rights all over the place (which presumably would be why we cut off the help)

mph4ever

01-01-2009, 02:24 PM

netanyahu (sp) said today on al jazeera that israel was providing a service to the world community by standing up to terrorists like hamas. he denied that any of what was happening was for political gain and that he felt he would be prime minister in 4 weeks time.

i watched the pictures on al jazeera. they are not censored so you actually get to see the faces of the 61 dead children and also the 100s of children that are injured. if anyone thinks that what the zionists are doing is in anyway justified then you should just go kill yourself now and remove any possibility of your gene pool being extended

gregulus

01-01-2009, 04:35 PM

Surgicalgod

01-01-2009, 04:48 PM

no he's not. actually criticizing israel and making it stop committing atrocities and bombing the **** out of everyone will actually help solve the problem.

imagine this scenario: you have two kids and kid A hits kid B because he stole his favorite toy. so in retaliation, kid B grabs a knife and stabs his brother in the face. what would you say to them? it's only logical to criticize kid B more than kid A and probably idk throw him out the window for being such a retard. how is it healthy to split the blame on both kids? it's obvious kid B has some issues and he's the one that should get most of the criticism.

i don't like it when people say both sides are wrong stop criticizing israel pls....that's just dumb.

Light Fantastic

01-01-2009, 05:21 PM

surgicalgod i think you are biased in favour of arabs why cant you see that they are worse

catharsis

01-01-2009, 05:40 PM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y100/Whatada/noconsequence.jpg

but really:

Both sides commit some repugnant deeds.

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 08:54 PM

oh so because israel doesn't view itself as an occupier therefore they're not. thats pretty smart.
once again you fail to understand simple statements.

fact is israel occupied palestine
you're an idiot.

"Palestine" was named so because of Emperor Hadrian's desire to humiliate the Jews by naming their land after the Philistines.

"Palestinians" did not exist until 1967. They named themselves after a non-existent people. Perhaps they would've been more logical, yet still factually inaccurate, to refer to themselves as Canaanites..you know, the first inhabitants of the Land of Israel.

....how can that be my side of the story? it's ****ing fact. go read a history book.
a step ahead of you

cry cry cry...what? i loved the you idiots part btw.
Yes you militant idiots who want to blame Israel for everything and turn a blind eye to foolish policies by your own leaders.

seems to me you're an evangelical christian jewlover or maybe just a jew who hates arabs and is supporting israel only because they're jew. amirite?
seems to me you focus too much on the person than on the argument.

You can call me whatever you want. All of this is a smokescreen for your pathetic arguments for 1) criticizing Israel and 2) making a thread about it everytime

what are you talking about? do you even know what militant means?
yeah

no you thought hamas are hezbollah then pretended your bad spelling is an hebrew word we all dont know of (because ur v elite and know ur hebrew well) therefore ur the idiot yes.
Your ignorance is in full view...you might want to hide behind more ad-hominems.

hismajestythepope

01-01-2009, 09:00 PM

Wars are just a weeding out process. And religion is useless, absolutely useless. Hey my moral values carry a brandname!

that was a brilliant statement dude, you deserve a degree in ultra intellect

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 09:02 PM

"Palestinians" did not exist until 1967. They named themselves after a non-existent people.Palestinians are Arabs who have a common history. Stop being revisionist.

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 09:06 PM

Palestinians are Arabs who have a common history. Stop being revisionist.

No Arabs entered the land after it was relinquished from the Ottoman Empire. It was British land, not Arab. The British invited both Arabs and Jews back to the land, and we all know how that went...

why these people would use a name to lay claim to a land is beyond me. Thats likened to myself, A 1st generation Black-American, demanding a reparation check when my family had nothing to do with slavery.

Mr. Ron

01-01-2009, 09:16 PM

what

they lived there for thousands of years

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 09:16 PM

Arabs have been living there since the Islamic conquests.

Jude

01-01-2009, 09:36 PM

My Palestinian host family has Greek ancestors who intermarried with the Arabs back in ottoman times so urrong

Anyway, even if the ridiculous claim that "the Palestinian people" didn't exist or have any cohesive identity until the Jews showed up were true, that still wouldn't change the fact that the Palestinians have a right to live in that land because that's where they were already living

And the fact that they have a right to live there does not interfere with the the fact that it should be possible for Jews to live there if they want

Somehow people have a problem seeing this, either they think only one side can have the right to live there or else they equate Jews having the right to live there with Jews having the right to own the place and **** over everybody else for their own good

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 09:44 PM

I really can't stand when people try to negate the Palestinian's identity as a nationality of their own as well as being Arabs. They're as much a nationality as Saudis, Turks or Greeks. Since when does a people need to have their own state in order to be a nation?

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 09:57 PM

Arabs have been living there since the Islamic conquests.

Thats irrelevant because they're trying to lay claim to land during the time of the Canaanites

Anyway, even if the ridiculous claim that "the Palestinian people" didn't exist or have any cohesive identity until the Jews showed up were true, that still wouldn't change the fact that the Palestinians have a right to live in that land because that's where they were already living

And the fact that they have a right to live there does not interfere with the the fact that it should be possible for Jews to live there if they want

Somehow people have a problem seeing this, either they think only one side can have the right to live there or else they equate Jews having the right to live there with Jews having the right to own the place and **** over everybody else for their own good[/QUOTE]
You're very right in your reasoning and I see where you're coming from. However, we have to put aside propaganda and go straight to the history. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I've read the estimate of Palestinians leaving the land to be at 70%. If we can agree more or less on that, then we have to go over why they left. According to history, they left the land because they were encouraged by their own leaders to do so, in anticipation for a war.

I'm not addressing this to you specifically, but if anyone doubts the history, you should look up the 1947 UN resolution, which provided for two states in Palestine.
I really can't stand when people try to negate the Palestinian's identity as a nationality of their own as well as being Arabs. They're as much a nationality as Saudis, Turks or Greeks. Since when does a people need to have their own state in order to be a nation?
Please find where the term "Palestinian" comes from in its original form. Then ask yourself why Arab people would use a western term to identify themselves, and ask yourself about the language, customs, and traditions of Ancient Palestinians.

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 10:03 PM

Please find where the term "Palestinian" comes from in its original form. Then ask yourself why Arab people would use a western term to identify themselves, and ask yourself about the language, customs, and traditions of Ancient Palestinians.The name for the Palestinians comes from the name for their land, which comes from the name of the (unrelated) Philistines. So what? That has nothing to do with whether the Palestinians are a nation or not.
Thats irrelevant because they're trying to lay claim to land during the time of the CanaanitesHuh? Canaan has nothing to do with this. Israel's borders aren't the same as their historical borders at all.

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 10:13 PM

The name for the Palestinians comes from the name for their land, which comes from the name of the (unrelated) Philistines.
where did the name of their land come from?

*Surprise* The Philistines

not so unrelated

Huh? Canaan has nothing to do with this. Israel's borders aren't the same as their historical borders at all.
um yeh the original inhabitants of the land have nothing to do with the land right?

Jude

01-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Thats irrelevant because they're trying to lay claim to land during the time of the Canaanites
That's irrelevant because they were already living there
The Jews make ridiculous claims too so what if we just ignore the preposterous claims that both sides make

You're very right in your reasoning and I see where you're coming from. However, we have to put aside propaganda and go straight to the history. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I've read the estimate of Palestinians leaving the land to be at 70%. If we can agree more or less on that, then we have to go over why they left. According to history, they left the land because they were encouraged by their own leaders to do so, in anticipation for a war.
You said it yourself
They got the hell out because there was a war coming and they didn't want to be around for it
That is not a legitimate reason to make them refugees for the next six decades, which Israel has done

Anyway who cares who the "original inhabitants" are
Jews claiming that they have a right to the land because their distant ancestors owned it for a brief period of time is just as retarded as Palestinians trying to claim they are the Canaanites who the Hebrews kicked out earlier

In any case there's no way to justify Israel in not letting the refugees back in. The only reason they do that is because that would ruin the population balance and mess up their Jewish state. As convincing as the arguments for a Jewish state are, none of them are powerful enough to make a 60 year stint in refugee camps, for millions of people, worth it.

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 10:58 PM

where did the name of their land come from?

*Surprise* The Philistines

not so unrelatedYeah, and? I don't see what the Philistines have to do with anything. The Palestinians are Arabs. They speak Arabic and their culture is part of a larger Arab culture.
um yeh the original inhabitants of the land have nothing to do with the land right?Since the original inhabitants of the land weren't Jews, no, not really. Lots of people have lived in Palestine and lots of people have controlled it. What matters is, how do we get the Jews who came there and the Palestines who were already there when they came to live together?

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 11:23 PM

You said it yourself
They got the hell out because there was a war coming and they didn't want to be around for it

That is not a legitimate reason to make them refugees for the next six decades, which Israel has done
its a consequence moreso than a legitimate reason.

Anyway who cares who the "original inhabitants" are
Evidently "Palestinians" do that they would go the route to rename themselves

In any case there's no way to justify Israel in not letting the refugees back in.

I don't want to make this about Israel insofar it deals with Palestinian leaders. There are steps which can be taken, but we can't put the blame on just one side.

No, I don't have a comprehensive solution, but I suggest that if any deal be brokered, the Palestinians should have a formidable country take up their case, rather than the U.S trying to represent both sides.
Yeah, and? I don't see what the Philistines have to do with anything.
do me a favor and Wikipedia Emperor Hadrian.
kthnx

The Palestinians are Arabs. They speak Arabic and their culture is part of a larger Arab culture.
no thats the name they used to identify themselves. the arabs are not connected to Ancient Philistines in any manner please understand this. Namesake is irrelevant.

Lots of people have lived in Palestine and lots of people have controlled it. What matters is, how do we get the Jews who came there and the Palestines who were already there when they came to live together?
Again, the original name of the land was Canaan (followed by Judea). Thats its relevance. As I said, the Jews became assimilated with the Canaanites and at one time took hold of the land. The Philistines (for which Hadrian renamed the land "palestine" for) were eventually defeated by the Israelites.

Thats today's history lesson.

Edit: someone correct me if I'm completely wrong I think I have the general flow of things

Iskandar

01-01-2009, 11:37 PM

I'm not uninformed about Middle Eastern history. Don't patronize me.

The Palestinians are Arabs. They are also an ethnicity unto themselves, like Egyptian, Iraqi and Gulf Arabs, much as there are Ashkenazic, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews. There is no disputing this. The Palestinians have roots in their land, there is a distinct Palestinian dialect of Arabic, and they self-identify as Palestinians - not just Arabs. Perhaps the strongest unifying factor is their collective experience of the Nakba and life under Israeli occupation. So what? "Israeli" as a demonym didn't exist before 1947, because there was no Israel, only Jews. So stop trying to claim "Palestinian" is an invented identity. It's ignorant and retarded. Palestinians are as much a nation as any other group, stateless or not.

BassRevelation0

01-01-2009, 11:51 PM

The Palestinians are Arabs.

You don't get it.

You are exactly correct in saying the "Palestinians" are arabs. I say "Palestinian" because in history there is no such thing as a Palestinian. For the last time, "Palestinian" was derived from "Philistine," Connected by the Verb Pelesh(or is it Pelash?) You don't seem to know this so please open the historical text. forgive me if I sound like I'm patronizing you.

The Palestinians have roots in their land
The Philistines have their root in the land, you're exactly right. Today's "Palestinians" however are not in any way related to the Philistines.

, there is a distinct Palestinian dialect of Arabic
I highly doubt this.
"Israeli" as a demonym didn't exist before 1947, because there was no Israel, only Jews.

um..Judea?

So stop trying to claim "Palestinian" is an invented identity. It's ignorant and retarded.
it is an invented identity.

Palestinians are as much a nation as any other group, stateless or not.
Yes, you're right. But Palestinians were born on 1967 and have no link to ancient Philisitines. Do you get me?

Honestly I have no personal beef with the Palestinian people. They deserve the same rights as anyone. I just have an issue with leaders who have taken a dump on the peace process, and moreso the United States(yes I'm blaming america again) for intervening and creating disastrous policies.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 12:04 AM

The Philistines have their root in the land, you're exactly right. Today's "Palestinians" however are not in any way related to the Philistines.Today's Palestinians are the descendants of the Arabs who were living there before Jews starting emigrating. That's what I mean when I say their roots are in the land. Arabs have been living there continuously since the seventh century. Jews hadn't lived there since the second century A.D. If anything the Arabs have a stronger claim to the land. Nobody consulted them about the creation of Israel, neither the Jews nor the British.

I highly doubt this.You don't speak Arabic. The Palestinian dialect is a sub-grouping of the larger Levantine dialect, but it's still distinct from Lebanese or Jordanian Arabic. Other Arabs will recognize Palestinians by their speech.
um..Judea?Medinat Yisrael is completely different from the biblical kingdoms. They were theocratic states ruled by a monarch while modern Israel is a (mostly) secular democracy.
it is an invented identity.Created by historical circumstances, maybe. Invented makes it sound like Arabs adopted the term in order to legitimize their land claims.
Yes, you're right. But Palestinians were born on 1967 and have no link to ancient Philisitines. Do you get me?Never said they have a link to the Philistines. We're not even sure if those were a Semitic people.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 01:02 AM

Today's Palestinians are the descendants of the Arabs who were living there before Jews starting emigrating.
this is false

Jews hadn't lived there since the second century A.D.
This is also false. I won't say many, but Jews still lived there in certain towns.

You don't speak Arabic.

Arabic is not a language of the Philistines.

what i meant to say is that "You're wrong" but maybe you had some fact to refute it.

Medinat Yisrael is completely different from the biblical kingdoms. They were theocratic states ruled by a monarch while modern Israel is a (mostly) secular democracy.
um you said Jews now you're talking government

Created by historical circumstances, maybe. Invented makes it sound like Arabs adopted the term in order to legitimize their land claims.

thats exactly how it is. Maybe even a combination of the two.

Never said they have a link to the Philistines. We're not even sure if those were a Semitic people.
ok.

Jude

01-02-2009, 01:06 AM

You don't get it.

You are exactly correct in saying the "Palestinians" are arabs. I say "Palestinian" because in history there is no such thing as a Palestinian. For the last time, "Palestinian" was derived from "Philistine," Connected by the Verb Pelesh(or is it Pelash?) You don't seem to know this so please open the historical text. forgive me if I sound like I'm patronizing you.

Listen
It doesnt' matter if they were CALLED "Palestinians" or not; the people and their culture are still the same
The reason people make a big deal out of emphasizing the recent use of the word "Palestine" is to, as you are doing, try to construct absurd arguments of why the Palestinians have no right to live in Palestine. The end goal of these arguments is inevitably to justify Israel in kicking and keeping the Palestinians out. So just quit it.

The Philistines have their root in the land, you're exactly right. Today's "Palestinians" however are not in any way related to the Philistines.
How do Palestinian Arabs not have roots in the land
You don't know anything about them do you
I've lived with them so I think I know a little better than you

I highly doubt this.
Well you're an idiot and don't know anything about Arabic; I fit neither of those categories so trust me when I say, it's true

um..Judea?
Judea was an insignificant kingdom in ancient times. Tryign to justify the wresting of Palestine from its native inhabitants into Jewish control by way of Judea is as insane as claiming ownership of Canaan because you're descended from the Philistines.

it is an invented identity.
Who am I going to trust
your dumb *** or the actual people whose identity it is

this is false
Are you retarded
No it's not false
Do you think they grew from spores or something

This is also false
For once you're right. Presumably he meant Jews as a united people though

Arabic is not a language of the Philistines.
That has dick to do with what he was saying way to try and reroute the argument

thats exactly how it is. Maybe even a combination of the two.
If they did use that identity to reinforce their land claims, it was in reaction to the way Jews used the insignificant, backwater province of Judea to justify THEIR taking over modern Palestine. Fighting fire with fire if you will. Of course, in an ideal world, the native people of any land shouldn't have to fabricate reasons why they deserve to live in their own homeland.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 01:34 AM

This is also false. I won't say many, but Jews still lived there in certain towns.Yeah, and the whole region was under Arab control for over a thousand years until the British colonized it.
Arabic is not a language of the Philistines.I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about Palestinians. Arabs who live in Palestine.
um you said Jews now you're talking governmentThe government of Israel. You brought up Judea which is absurd. Aside from being Jewish states in the same general area, they have almost nothing in common.
thats exactly how it is. Maybe even a combination of the two.What, so Palestinians don't have a claim to the land they live in, but Jews who lived in Europe for 1900 years do? They have just as much of a right as the Jews to live there.
For once you're right. Presumably he meant Jews as a united people thoughWell (and I'm saying this to BassRevelation) the Jewish population before 1947 was small and at any rate mostly Mizrahi Jews, not the Europeanized Ashkenazim who founded Israel. From the Palestinian point of view, Europeans with a different culture, religion and language came and founded a state on their land without their consent. No wonder they're mad.

The historical revisionism here is hilarious.

Amit

01-02-2009, 01:57 AM

****ing pwned

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 02:08 AM

I try.

Amit

01-02-2009, 02:10 AM

come let us don our left socialist state gunmen uniforms and steal from the honest working man!

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 02:15 AM

You're brown, so you're probably just an Arab terrorist who denies the fulfillment of biblical prophecy that will result from the return of the children of Israel to Zion.

Give me Beer

01-02-2009, 05:34 AM

it is an invented identity.

Please find me an identity that isn't invented. :lol:

Every identity is a construct.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 05:43 AM

Nationalities have been called imagined communities. You don't actually know everyone you identify with. That doesn't mean they aren't valid.

Reductio

01-02-2009, 06:23 AM

You're only contributing to the problem by saying stupid things like "the zionists" and by placing the blame completely and utterly on one side. You're like a sports fan.

Blaming one side isn't contributing to the problem when only one side deserves to be blamed.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 06:42 AM

Both sides have done stuff worthy of blame.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 08:36 AM

Who cares if "Palestinian" is a recent national construct or not? It exists now, so deal with it.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 09:16 AM

lolol guys i told you he was an idiot but did you believe me? no.

i don't think I have to reply because you already got pwned 101320131293 times but I just couldn't resist to reply to this one:

there is a distinct Palestinian dialect of Arabic
I highly doubt this.

:lol::lol::lol: I thought you were an expert on the Middle East lolol....oh man you're so pathetic. what dialect did you think palestinians speak? lebanese? even the israelis speak palestinian arabic when they learn the language.

SugarCoatedSour

01-02-2009, 10:15 AM

ITT rampant semantics.

Already_Taken

01-02-2009, 10:56 AM

yeah so far i would say bassrevelation is hilariously stupid though

Jude

01-02-2009, 11:13 AM

I'm actually embarrassed I spent so much time arguing with his dumb *** but hey I was tired as **** and sick to boot so my mind was fuzzy

SugarCoatedSour

01-02-2009, 12:00 PM

yeah so far i would say bassrevelation is hilariously stupid though

That who I was basing it on.

gregulus

01-02-2009, 12:11 PM

Blaming one side isn't contributing to the problem when only one side deserves to be blamed.
No. Both sides have done condemnable things.

To respond to SurgicalGod's response to my initial response:
I don't think that you should stop criticizing Israel. By all means, many of the Israeli actions are over-dramatic and ridiculously excessive. However, they are not the sole antagonist in this situation. By refusing to even recognize Israel, condemn violence directed at Israeli civilian centers, etc., Hamas is only perpetuating the problem. They really are no better than the Israelis. I don't want to come off as sounding like I'm simply sympathetic to the Israeli plight. The blockade of Gaza is collectively punishing people who certainly shouldn't be punished. Out of the 1.4 million people in Gaza, I would suspect that it's only a small portion really firing the rockets. However, Hamas needs to recognize that the issue of whether or not Israel should exist is, at this point, a non-issue. Israel does exist and, unless forced via armed conquest, Israel will not cease to exist. Israel, on the other hand, needs to get off of their high-horse and start making things better for the Palestinian people. They're shooting themselves in the foot just as much as Hamas. Bombing the hell out of a tiny strip of land that's about as bad off as bad can get is not going to stop animosity directed at them. This is a childish game being played with deadly weapons and arguing over who has the right to exist is not going to end it. Both sides need to reconcile that fact and actively try to reach an agreement, realizing that neither side will get everything they want and will have to make some concessions.

Who cares if "Palestinian" is a recent national construct or not? It exists now, so deal with it.
Siva's right. Whether or not "Palestinian" has any deep historical roots is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Mr. Ron

01-02-2009, 01:34 PM

bassrev y r u so dum

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 01:54 PM

idk but it would be funny when he reads this thread and realises that i wasn't just trolling when i called him an idiot.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 02:10 PM

Listen
It doesnt' matter if they were CALLED "Palestinians" or not; the people and their culture are still the same
obviously it does matter there was a name change

How do Palestinian Arabs not have roots in the land
You don't know anything about them do you
I've lived with them so I think I know a little better than you

Perhaps you should know better.

Well you're an idiot and don't know anything about Arabic;

Do I have to know english to say "The british speak english?"

I can be an idiot and not know Arabic, but my claim stands please lay off the ad-hominems.

I fit neither of those categories so trust me when I say, it's true
thats pathetic you want me to take your word for it.

Forget facts; lets just base everything on our own ideas.

Who am I going to trust
your dumb *** or the actual people whose identity it is
Why not trust 1) History 2) Facts

of course the self-identifiers will just perpetuate propaganda.

whats next you're gonna trust the "Jews did 9/11" crowd?

Yeah, and the whole region was under Arab control for over a thousand years until the British colonized it.
Try Ottoman Turks.

The Ottoman's were not Arab. they controlled arab land. My country was colonized by the British. Does that make the British into Nigerians, or Nigerians into Brits?

The government of Israel. You brought up Judea which is absurd. Aside from being Jewish states in the same general area, they have almost nothing in common.
You made the ridiculous claim that the Jews had no root in the land. I showed you, by reference, how they do. Perhaps you don't know much about that history.

What, so Palestinians don't have a claim to the land they live in, but Jews who lived in Europe for 1900 years do? They have just as much of a right as the Jews to live there.
You still don't realize that both are the same, as "Palestinians" were from neighboring countries. However, one of these people had roots in the land; the other didn't and got a namechange to make the same claim.

You should know what a "Palestinian refugee" is according to the UN:

Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948
Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948

Wait, so a Palestinian is someone who lived in the land for two years and left?

Well (and I'm saying this to BassRevelation) the Jewish population before 1947 was small and at any rate mostly Mizrahi Jews

You left out Mediterranean Jews (I believe they go by Sephardim)

, not the Europeanized Ashkenazim who founded Israel. From the Palestinian point of view, Europeans with a different culture, religion and language came and founded a state on their land without their consent. No wonder they're mad.
IT wasn't "Their land."

Perhaps the "Palestinians" should have accepted the resolution to give them a separate state rather than focusing on destroying the state of Israel and purging the land of Jews

The historical revisionism here is hilarious.
No thats your lack of historical knowledge.

lolol guys i told you he was an idiot but did you believe me? no.

This is coming from the guy who blames Israel for the coffee he spilled on his shirt at breakfast.

I don't expect you to look past the propaganda you've been indoctrinated in from birth. That would require thinking. I know you're not capable of that.

Mr. Ron

01-02-2009, 02:12 PM

fact remains, no matter the name, they have been dwelling in that region for a very long time and nothing will change that.

SugarCoatedSour

01-02-2009, 02:54 PM

Bassrevolutions should go back to dwelling inside an asshole, eating babies, stealing gold, and sodomizing his sister and mother, and proceed to infect the world

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 03:09 PM

The Ottoman's were not Arab. they controlled arab land.Yet Arabs were living there. Stop denying facts.
You made the ridiculous claim that the Jews had no root in the land. I showed you, by reference, how they do. Perhaps you don't know much about that history.No I didn't. I said they had been living in Europe for 1900 years. How that gives them a claim to the land but not the people already living there is beyond me.
You left out Mediterranean Jews (I believe they go by Sephardim)They're a minority. Ashkenazic Jews are by far the dominant group of the Jewish people, and the most Europeanized.
IT wasn't "Their land." Oh, so there was nobody living there at all? It was open for the taking? There were more Arabs there than Jews.
Perhaps the "Palestinians" should have accepted the resolution to give them a separate state rather than focusing on destroying the state of Israel and purging the land of Jews"Hey, some foreigners are going to take some of your land, but you can have half of it. No wait, sorry, the idiot countries around you invaded and now it's occupied. Whoops."

Oh yeah and stop ad homineming people.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 03:19 PM

Yet Arabs were living there. Stop denying facts.

so therefore it is their land?

No I didn't. I said they had been living in Europe for 1900 years.

All of them? no.

Oh, so there was nobody living there at all? It was open for the taking? There were more Arabs there than Jews.
it was British Territory.

"Hey, some foreigners are going to take some of your land, but you can have half of it. No wait, sorry, the idiot countries around you invaded and now it's occupied. Whoops."
It wasn't "Their land."

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 03:46 PM

This is coming from the guy who blames Israel for the coffee he spilled on his shirt at breakfast.

I don't expect you to look past the propaganda you've been indoctrinated in from birth. That would require thinking. I know you're not capable of that.

lol because i'm criticizing israel more than hamas?

if there's anyone who's been brainwashed it's you. at least i acknowledge the existence of jews or israelis and don't pretend they never existed...thats zionist propaganda that ive heard a hundred times before.

It wasn't "Their land."
so therefore it is their land?

pretty much.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 04:09 PM

so therefore it is their land?If you ask me, if people live somewhere that's their land. Removing them from it forcefully constitutes ethnic cleansing. Not that all Palestinians were forced to leave, but some were.
All of them? no.The vast majority of Jews lived in Europe or elsewhere in the world. Only a relatively small population lived in Erets Yisrael until Zionism came into vogue and encouraged immigration. There were more Arabs there than Jews.
it was British Territory.

It wasn't "Their land."The British Mandate of Palestine, like other British holdings in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt) was a protectorate, not a colony. And I don't see what British imperialist misadventures have to do with the Palestinian's right to the land.

Jude

01-02-2009, 04:10 PM

You made the ridiculous claim that the Jews had no root in the land.
Nobody made that claim we just pointed out that their roots are far more distant and ephemeral than those of people who have been living there continuously for centuries

You should know what a "Palestinian refugee" is according to the UN:

Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948

Wait, so a Palestinian is someone who lived in the land for two years and left?

Surely even you aren't so retarded that you would take that definition that way

Perhaps the "Palestinians" should have accepted the resolution to give them a separate state rather than focusing on destroying the state of Israel and purging the land of Jews
1. There was no reason for them to accept; they had everything to lose and nothing to gain whereas for the Jews it was the opposite. The Palestinians would in effect be having their homeland carved up into pieces, one of which would be ruled, and grant special privileges, to people of another and essentially foreign ethnicity, based purely ON ethnicity. Who in their right mind would accept such a proposition?
2. Nobody asked them; the decision to reject it was made by the leaders of neighboring Arab countries, but
3. If they had been asked and had refused, nobody could have blamed them for the reasons mentioned in 1.

so therefore it is their land?
Well that depends how you define land
You could define it as the Ottomans' land because they owned it for a couple hundred years
You could define it as the Britons' land because they owned it at the time
You could define it as the land of the native population because they lived there

Or you could even define it as the Jews' land, which would be like defining Iran as the Germans' land because the Aryan tribes used to live there.

The definition of whose land something is, is godawfully mushy and subjective. When in doubt, the moral thing to do is accord "ownership" to the people who live there (and, preferably, have for a long time, if there has to be a dispute)

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 04:26 PM

Don't believe what I'm saying? The Hope Simpson report (an official census) gives the demographic breakdown as the following in 1922: total population 757,182, "Mohammedans" (read Arab Muslims) 590,890, Jews 83,794, Christians 82,498.

In 1930, Mohammedans 692,195, Jews 162,069, Christians 91, 727, total 945,991. The Jewish population increased, but so did the others.

Then in 1945, "Moslem" 1,061,270, Jewish 553,600, Christian 135,550, total 1,764,520.
Interesting - just before the state of Israel was proclaimed, the Jewish population was about a tenth of what it is today, and Muslim Arabs (i.e. Palestinians) were the majority by about twice as much. The land was planned to be divided about equally.

I got this from www.zionism-israel.com by the way, just in case you were going to level accusations of bias.

So now you still gonna claim the Palestinians never existed?

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 04:33 PM

I think it's been pretty well established that whether the "Palestinians" existed pre-Israel or not is completely irrelevant. They exist now. Move past it already.

It doesn't matter if they just proclaimed themselves Palestinians yesterday, or if they proclaimed it 400 years ago; they are still there and they still recognize themselves as such today.

Jude

01-02-2009, 04:43 PM

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 04:47 PM

Problem is if you're a rabid zionist or a retard (read: BassRev) that's not good enough because God gave the Jews the land

And there are Islamic militants that feel the exact same way in reverse. As evident by Hamas refusing to recognize Israel and their blatant anti-semitism. They seem to think that Allah gave these Muslims this land.

Pointing out there are retarded Jews without pointing out there are also retarded Muslims on the opposite side of the coin is, well...retarded.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 04:48 PM

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 04:49 PM

Sure thing.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 05:07 PM

If you ask me, if people live somewhere that's their land.
im not asking you

Removing them from it forcefully constitutes ethnic cleansing. Not that all Palestinians were forced to leave, but some were.
70% left on their own stop perpetuating propaganda.

Its no good to be a zionist. Its no better to blame everything on them and perpetuate myths.

The vast majority of Jews lived in Europe or elsewhere in the world. Only a relatively small population lived in Erets Yisrael until Zionism came into vogue and encouraged immigration.
A minority of "Palestinians" lived in the area until they were invited in 1917 from neighboring countries. A lot of them actually came as illegal immigrants.

There were more Arabs there than Jews.
there are more mexicans in the U.S than Anglos. Does that mean its now their land?

The British Mandate of Palestine, like other British holdings in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt) was a protectorate, not a colony.

There's no need to equivocate. This was British territory
Who in their right mind would accept such a proposition?
I dunno ask the Native Americans

The definition of whose land something is, is godawfully mushy and subjective. When in doubt, the moral thing to do is accord "ownership" to the people who live there (and, preferably, have for a long time, if there has to be a dispute)
No we deal with legal definitions

So now you still gonna claim the Palestinians never existed?
All that was irrelevant in tying the relationship between ancient Philistines and Palestinians of today. Again I ask you to see the definition of Palestinian refugee.
And there are Islamic militants that feel the exact same way in reverse. As evident by Hamas refusing to recognize Israel and their blatant anti-semitism. They seem to think that Allah gave these Muslims this land.

Pointing out there are retarded Jews without pointing out there are also retarded Muslims on the opposite side of the coin is, well...retarded.
Absolutely right

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 05:26 PM

70% left on their own stop perpetuating propaganda.

Its no good to be a zionist. Its no better to blame everything on them and perpetuate myths.

they all just decided to leave at the very same time. gg.

and about 425 villages destroyed doesn't mean anything to you.

btw ur a zionist.

A minority of "Palestinians" lived in the area until they were invited in 1917 from neighboring countries. A lot of them actually came as illegal immigrants.

what?

There's no need to equivocate. This was British territor

that doesn't give anyone the right to cleanse the inhabitants out.

god ur dumb pls stop posting

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 05:35 PM

If you keep denying the Palestinian people exist yet Israel has a right to their land, you're the worst kind of Zionist tbh.
A minority of "Palestinians" lived in the area until they were invited in 1917 from neighboring countries. A lot of them actually came as illegal immigrants.Care to provide statistics to back that up, like I did?

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 05:39 PM

he probably thinks he needs to be a jew to be a zionist.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 05:40 PM

they all just decided to leave at the very same time. gg.

and about 425 villages destroyed doesn't mean anything to you.

btw ur a zionist.

what?

that doesn't give anyone the right to cleanse the inhabitants out.

god ur dumb pls stop posting

Please stop spelling like a 4 year old, for the love of Allah.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 05:42 PM

More like a preteen, I'd say.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 05:46 PM

*^*y oMg u GicE r sO MeaN*^*

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 05:47 PM

If you keep denying the Palestinian people exist yet Israel has a right to their land, you're the worst kind of Zionist tbh.
You're an idiot for coming to that conclusion. Don't be so thick.

To be absolutely clear, I know that both Muslims and Jews lived in Palestine. I'm not denying that. However, making the claim that there were more Muslims than Jews does not equal any fact that says the land belongs to them.

Neither do I deny that Palestinian people exist today. As Siva said, its irrelevant. However, the identity of Palestinian was done to stake a claim in the land. If we agree that they exist today under that name, yet have no inherent claim to the land, then lets end this

Care to provide statistics to back that up, like I did?
it comes from the very source that you cited:
The Hope-Simpson Commission report said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants.
they all just decided to leave at the very same time. gg.
yes idiot that usually occurs in anticipation of a war, or from direct orders from Arab leaders.

btw ur a zionist.
you're a tool who's yet to make a decent argument and uses namecalling to hide behind that fact.

what?
no im not surprised you didn't know that.

that doesn't give anyone the right to cleanse the inhabitants out.
perpetuating myths aren't we

god ur dumb pls stop posting
great argument, propagandist. Quit trolling

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 05:57 PM

To be absolutely clear, I know that both Muslims and Jews lived in Palestine. I'm not denying that. However, making the claim that there were more Muslims than Jews does not equal any fact that says the land belongs to them.

Neither do I deny that Palestinian people exist today. As Siva said, its irrelevant. However, the identity of Palestinian was done to stake a claim in the land. If we agree that they exist today under that name, yet have no inherent claim to the land, then lets end thisEr, and why does the land belong to the Jews but not to them?

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 06:06 PM

yes idiot that usually occurs in anticipation of a war, or from direct orders from Arab leaders.

so that sort of negates your point doesn't it? gg again.

you're a tool who's yet to make a decent argument and uses namecalling to hide behind that fact.

lol tool.

umm no you just fit the definition of a zionist so you are one.

no im not surprised you didn't know that.

i still have no idea what you're talking about btw

perpetuating myths aren't we

seriously you're dumb i suggest u burn ur bible and grab a history book instead that would make jesus happier.

Mr. Ron

01-02-2009, 06:11 PM

I don't see why this has to be complicated

Palestinians or whatever you want to call them have been living on that land for a very long time, and they were kicked off of it and live pretty shitty lives now. Both sides have done wrong, however I'd have to say Israel gets a serious hard on when it comes to crying about being subjugated. No one is even a real threat to them in that region.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 06:13 PM

no we are all idiots and BassRevelation0 is right so pls stop arguing hes an expert on the middle east.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 06:14 PM

Er, and why does the land belong to the Jews but not to them?

They were invited in-part because Britain recognized their original stake in the land, moreso because of what happened in Europe. Don't forget, the land could have belonged to both of them.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 06:16 PM

no we are all idiots and BassRevelation0 is right so pls stop arguing hes an expert on the middle east.

BassRev being an idiot doesn't preclude you from being just as much of one.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 06:19 PM

siva_chair i never made up things to make myself look smarter. you're just butthurt im criticizing israel more than hamas.

BassRevelation0

01-02-2009, 06:21 PM

BassRev being an idiot doesn't preclude you from being just as much of one.

I never thought I'd agree with someone who called me an idiot.

well actually I did.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 06:30 PM

siva_chair i never made up things to make myself look smarter. you're just butthurt im criticizing israel more than hamas.

No I'm just pointing out you are being an idiot.

And judging by your reaction to it, I think you are mistaken on the one of us that is butthurt here.

I never thought I'd agree with someone who called me an idiot.

well actually I did.

Well, I never explicitly called you an idiot in this thread. I was just pointing out that even if you were, it doesn't keep him from being one as well.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 06:42 PM

siva_chair pls stop trolling me or ill report u :(

also there is no reason for u to call me an idiot but the whole criticizing israel thing...i didn't said anything in this thread but that and a bit of trolling. oh that and the fact that i called you an idiot before so yeah ur butthurt over that also.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 06:48 PM

They were invited in-part because Britain recognized their original stake in the land, moreso because of what happened in Europe. Don't forget, the land could have belonged to both of them.Both Jews and Arabs have ties to the land. Jerusalem is just as important in Islam as it is in Judaism - who built al-Aqsa?

The land should belong to both of them. It should be shared. The West Bank (the whole thing, not just the part administered by the Palestinian Authority) and Gaza should belong to Palestine, because they have majority Arab populations. The rest should belong to Israel, except the Golan which should be returned to Syria.

Jude

01-02-2009, 06:50 PM

So I can just invade anybody's country and then invite foreigners in and put them in charge, and that's OK, as long as their distant ancestors once ruled a backwater kingdom there millennia ago?

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 06:52 PM

siva_chair pls stop trolling me or ill report u :(

Oh please oh please Mr. don't tattle on me for calling you something you have been doing this whole thread!

also there is no reason for u to call me an idiot but the whole criticizing israel thing...

No the fact that you are clearly biased and fail at being rational when it comes to this issue is another reason.

That, and the fact that you keep spelling like a 4 year old. It certainly doesn't help your case.

i didn't said anything in this thread but that and a bit of trolling. oh that and the fact that i called you an idiot before so yeah ur butthurt over that also.

No sorry my butt feels just fine.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings there, little buddy. It wasn't right of me to antagonize someone such as yourself.

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 06:52 PM

I just don't see why the Palestinians should have to suffer because the Arab autocracies in the region tried to take on Israel and failed. That was decades ago.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 06:55 PM

So I can just invade anybody's country and then invite foreigners in and put them in charge, and that's OK, as long as their distant ancestors once ruled a backwater kingdom there millennia ago?

Apparently you can.

But only if you don't want those foreigners in your own nations, but feel sorry for them because some guy with one testicle went on an egomaniacal power trip and tried to exterminate said foreigners. But only then can you do it.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 07:54 PM

No the fact that you are clearly biased and fail at being rational when it comes to this issue is another reason.

That, and the fact that you keep spelling like a 4 year old. It certainly doesn't help your case.

how am i biased? i just said we should criticize israel more when they deserve more criticism but you just chose to ignore it and went on on how we're supposed to be honest when we start threads.

let us post all the intricate details of the palestinian-israeli conflict everytime hamas or israel screw up so we dont end up sounding dishonest.

spelling like this is fun so fo...

Oh please oh please Mr. don't tattle on me for calling you something you have been doing this whole thread!

:wave:... it was supposed to be a joke.

and pls ur sounding more butthurt with every post u make

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 08:01 PM

how am i biased? i just said we should criticize israel more when they deserve more criticism but you just chose to ignore it and went on on how we're supposed to be honest when we start threads.

You didn't even say "Israel deserves more criticism" until people called you out on it! The fact is that you made zero attempt at acknowledging aggressions done by the Palestinians to provoke this (albeit a very disproportionate) response from Israel. This is why you are biased. You conveniently gloss over (or ignore completely) the shitty things Palestinians do (and they do them) and emphasize the shitty things Israel does.

let us post all the intricate details of the palestinian-israeli conflict everytime hamas or israel screw up so we dont end up sounding dishonest.

Or how about you try to present the whole picture of each event you are commenting on instead of just focusing one side? You didn't even try to point out that Hamas is the one that fired rockets into Israel first. That was a fairly important aspect of this whole story, yet you chose to ignore it completely as though it were irrelevant.

spelling like this is fun so fo...

Well just don't be surprised when people call you an idiot, is all. Go ahead and do it if it is fun, but it certainly doesn't speak positive volumes of your intelligence.

:wave:... that was supposed to be the joke.

And a very poor one at that.

Surgicalgod

01-02-2009, 08:18 PM

You didn't even say "Israel deserves more criticism" until people called you out on it! * The fact is that you made zero attempt at acknowledging aggressions done by the Palestinians to provoke this (albeit a very disproportionate) response from Israel.

so you're just assuming things okay.

* because i made this thread to criticize israel and i did that. and i did say hamas were bad but i just called israel the bigger evil.

Or how about you try to present the whole picture of each event you are commenting on instead of just focusing one side? You didn't even try to point out that Hamas is the one that fired rockets into Israel first. That was a fairly important aspect of this whole story, yet you chose to ignore it completely as though it were irrelevant.

lol but you seem to forget that gaza is under a blockade and israel never lifted or eased it during the ceasefire which made it null. i think that is worth mentioning. now why did that slip your mind?

and anyway following your train of thought if i have to mention the reason behind every action i would be going on and on and on. i mean it's not fair to stop at one point making one side look better than the other is it?. anyway i would end up mentioning how israel started this whole mess by occupying land thats not theirs.

Well just don't be surprised when people call you an idiot, is all. Go ahead and do it if it is fun, but it certainly doesn't speak positive volumes of your intelligence.

because intentional bad spelling and intelligence are directly proportional.

And a very poor one at that.

it's not my fault you were too dumb to get it.

siva_chair

01-02-2009, 08:34 PM

so you're just assuming things okay.

* because i made this thread to criticize israel and i did that. and i did say hamas were bad but i just called israel the bigger evil.

Umm, no I'm not. You didn't say anything about Hamas being turds until people called you out on it.

lol but you seem to forget that gaza is under a blockade and israel never lifted or eased it during the ceasefire which made it null. i think that is worth mentioning. now why did that slip your mind?

That is false. Israel eased it during the ceasefire, though probably not to the extent Hamas would like.

and anyway following your train of thought if i have to mention the reason behind every action i would be going on and on and on. i mean it's not fair to stop at one point making one side look better than the other is it?

No, you need to mention particular reasons concerning these specific cases. You did no such thing. Well, unless of course you just want to keep looking like a biased idiot.

. anyway i would end up mentioning how israel started this whole mess by occupying land thats not theirs.

Once again, irrelevant. They are there now, get past it.

because intentional bad spelling and intelligence are directly proportional.

It sure as hell doesn't make you look smart.

it's not my fault you were too dumb to get it.

No I'm pretty sure it was just a piss poor attempt at a joke.

Jude

01-02-2009, 08:49 PM

Hitler only had one ball?

Anyway, Jews get all riled up if you bring up anything that's wrong with Israel so I think it's pretty understandable that for the same reason a Palestinian might get riled up about this topic

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 08:59 PM

No, I think that's a misconception fostered by the song "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball."

Like Napoleon being short. He wasn't, satirists just drew him that way.

The_End1227

01-02-2009, 10:14 PM

Idiot.

Does it take someone to tell you that Israel does not view themselves as the occupiers to know there are more than one side to every conflict? Do you realize your foolish line of thinking will accomplish nothing?

oh look you don't understand simple statements no wonder why you idiots can't solve ****

No idiot we're talking about "The bigger picture," unless you refer to an elected Hamas govt as militants, which I wouldn't disagree with you there

You don't understand therefore i'm the idiot?

seems you're the one bitching.

come up with something new or shut up

What? Are you kidding? Get the **** out of here you whining sack of ****. Everyone on this thread can see right through your b/s and yet you sit there attempting (poorly) to defend it. Your statements are absolute garbage, so stop trying to back them up by patronizing someone like Surgicalgod who actually understands what the **** is going on in this situation you little weasel.

The_End1227

01-02-2009, 10:24 PM

The_End1227

01-02-2009, 10:26 PM

by the way, Shaq, SG and Iskandar are doing the best job accurately and factually explaining the situation so far in this thread

Iskandar

01-02-2009, 10:34 PM

I try.

The_End1227

01-02-2009, 10:43 PM

btw guys I am back if u remember me from before (I know SG still knows who I am :p)... new account name though, kind of.

adding my two cents, the situation is completely out of control and the international community needs to fukking stand up and do something about this. It is morally indefensible to sit back and watch as hundreds and soon enough thousands of innocent people get slaughtered by israeli warplanes. adding to that, hamas should probably stop launching rockets for a while... some people actually buy into the whole "israel is defending against rocket attacks! the rockets!" argument. clearly there are other motives at work here. israel is not defending shiit. go back to shaq's previous posts and learn why it is that hamas have the right to be worked up over living in such shiity conditions caused and perpetuated by israel.