Brand Loyalty

[sleepless]

So, I've recently found myself at a crossroads.

I've been a Sabian artist for almost 6 years now, ever since I first started playing. Initially, I don't really recall why Sabian struck a chord with me so much.

I actually ordered my first cymbals without ever hearing them, my 14" HHX Power Hats. I had those for more than 5 years, and actually just sold them a couple of weeks ago.

Ever since I got them in, I had been in love. There really weren't any artists in particular that kept me with Sabian, but as I expanded my set up and had been playing for a number of years, I was simply adamant about their use because of my experience with their quality of sound.

Now I'm thinking about hopping brands to Paiste, and I've even been rethinking that decision. I've considered Zildjian and their K Custom/Hybrids, and even returning back to Sabian.

So, I ask, what makes you stick with your companies?

[Permanent Solution]

I don't stick with companies.

My K Hybrid hats are the sexiest hats I've ever heard. My 17" Vault is everything a crash should sound like.

Sound>anything else

[sleepless]

Agreed, but a lot of the same palettes can be found within other companies.

And I'm very picky, I couldn't play a set with Meinl hats, a Sabian crash, a Zildjian ride and a Wuhan china.

Even though my favorite drummer, Branden Morgan uses mainly Zildjian Ks and has one Sabian in his set.

[Permanent Solution]

Haha oh yes and I se Wuhan chinas.

I mean, the aesthetics are nice when they match, but eh...

I'd rather sound great than look good, and yes I know you can get close in sound between the companies but why settle for clsoe when you can get exactly what you want?

[sleepless]

Very true.

I guess things might change for me if I were ever approached professionally for an endorsement.

Depending on how much "pull" I had, it would really depend on what the company offers.

It seems like Sabian offers a lot more to their artists in terms of prototype and experimental construction. Josiah was definitely a douche, but I always loved that Sabian acid washed ride that he had.

[stevensonmat2]

And I'm very picky, I couldn't play a set with Meinl hats, a Sabian crash, a Zildjian ride and a Wuhan china.



Why not? If they sounded good together what would the problem be?

[sleepless]

I'm very picky

lern2reed

EDIT: To elaborate, and not hurt your feelings...

Why do that when I could buy a Sabian china that would match and sound just as good? It might cost a bit more, but thats a price I'm willing to pay.

[_Wrathchild_]

I have have a mix of brands when it comes to my cymbals, but I guess the majority of them are sabians. This is probably because Sabian is the most common brand to see around here so there is more of a selection with them than any other brands. They are also usually cheaper.
I dunno, I don't really have brand loyalty. I just try stuff out and go with whatever sound I like best.

[stevensonmat2]

lern2reed

EDIT: To elaborate, and not hurt your feelings...

Why do that when I could buy a Sabian china that would match and sound just as good? It might cost a bit more, but thats a price I'm willing to pay.

I was asking why be so picky? What if there is a cymbal unique to another brand that is everything you would want? Would you over look it?

[sleepless]

Well if that were the case, then I wouldn't overlook it. But I would first try my hardest to find SOMETHING comparable to it with whatever brand I preferred.

If not, I would probably buy that unique cymbal, and get rid of my other ones to accommodate the unique one, and purchase other ones of that brand. I told you I'm picky.

[stevensonmat2]

Well it is your money, but you really don't think that's kind of ridiculous?

[sleepless]

No.

[Aaron]

By sticking to one brand you're discounting all the other sounds that are available.

[sleepless]

Yes, because I obviously don't want those sounds.

If I did, I would buy them. What possible sound could I not get from any manufacturer?

[Damo]

sleepless - Use the mentality of "If its not broken, dont fix it". If your Sabians are great, then theres no reason to jump ship.

As a non-endorser of a brand, you are of course free to mix and match.

I am a sponsored player that was completely happy with Sabian before endorsing them, so although I was appreciative of the assistance they gave me, I would have been playing them exclusively anyway.

I have an affinity with Sabian also due in part to the companies nature of 'family'. They have always looked after me, answered all my emails personally and listen when I have advice to give.

I have truly felt welcome when dealing with them.

[Aaron]

You've heard every cymbal available? :rolleyes: Obviously you've already made up your mind and are going to be stuck with a narrow palette to work off. Why make a thread if you're already decided. The only logical reason to sticking to one brand is if you're after endorsement.

[stevensonmat2]

I'm pretty certain that every cymbal company offers unique models and sounds.

[Seafroggys]

Yeah my cymbals are uber mixed, I own two Zildjians, but every thing else is one off...Wuhan, Sabian, Paiste, and Amedia.

I must admit I am a Sonor whore. Though I have had the same student level set for over four years, and plan on keeping it for many years longer, when I upgrade, it will be a Sonor Designer (or whatever their top class is) for sure :thumb:

[sleepless]

Damo is the only person who has understood the point of this thread.

It was created to discuss WHY WE EACH HAVE OUR OWN PREFERENCE.
Damo clearly illustrated why he digs Sabian, and he has a perfectly valid reason. Thank you.

I haven't heard EVERY single sound, and I'm not talking about crappy or useless effects. I'm saying that gimmick cymbals aside, there's really very little that could sway me.

Don't get me wrong, I've done it before, I used to use an Alchemy china in one of my setups because it was beautiful looking AND sounding, also rare.

I just prefer not to.

EDIT: My pickyness was not intended to be the subject of discussion. I explained why I preferred Sabians, Seafroggys explained about Sonor.

More of this is appreciated.

EDIT2: I think I'm going to buy back my hi-hats from my department manager if he's still got them. Just for nostalgia if anything...

[Damo]

Sleepless - If you were happy to stay with Sabian, I can help you match the models that youd be seeking.

The way I see it, Im happy to endorse them. Yes, it means I cannot use other brands, but Sabian really went out of their way to make me feel special, and as such they DESERVE to have people like myself openly supporting their company and their product.

Feel free to email me through www.damienpetrilli.com and I can assist you in finding relevant Sabian models to compete your setup..

As an endorser, this is part of what I do! :)

[stevensonmat2]

I haven't been playing long enough to really have a brand loyalty. I really like the brands I use now, but my experience with cymbal brands other than the big three is zero.

My first cymbals were zildjian. Their A custom cymbal pack was a good fit for me; a full set-up of pro cymbals for a good price. At that time I wasn't horribly concerned with finding "my voice", so the bargain was more important. I really dug those A's, though, so when I went to buy new cymbals, zildjian was my first consideration. I tried out some other brands, but zildjian had what I wanted. That said, I have a paiste 2002 crash which I love to death, and a paiste sig splash which is the splash sound for me.

As for my kit, a lot of factors went into my purchasing yamaha. For one, and this is kind of silly, not many people had yamaha kits on the forums, or where I lived, and no one had an oak custom. I thought it would be nice to have a unique kit to show off. Secondly, I'm a big fan of Japan and Japanese culture, so from the onset I had a favorable view of yamaha. Again, kind of a silly reason for going with that brand, but it certainly was a factor.

I will say though, the deciding factor for me was quality and price. I had heard nothing but good things about yamaha, and the oak customs seemed like some of the nicest drums in my price range. I had been considering bumping up to some mapex saturns, but ultimately I found yamaha just fit me. Every company has it's personality, and yamaha's lines up with my own nicely.

[Aaron]

I've played that much gear that my loyalty now is with staff at stores.

[sleepless]

^This!

Thank you for your contribution mat, this is what I was looking for. I just kind of wanted to hear personal experiences from others, I think its a very interesting and relevant topic.

Damo, you should be receiving an e-mail from me shortly. You've pretty much settled my heart at this moment. Sabian and Sonor both should feel very good about maintaining an artist such as yourself.

EDIT: The this was to mat.

[sLarkin20]

I don't think there are many sounds you can get from one brand that you can't get from any other, except maybe with some of those crazy effect cymbals. Each brand has their own sets to compete with all the others.

[sleepless]

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

e-mail is out Damo!

[LoneStarDrummer]

before i knew anything, i wanted to have zildjian cymbals because it was a name i recognized. my first cymbal however was a sabian b8 hi hat. next was a crappy zildjian zbt ride and zxt crash. i knew the cymbals were cheap, but i stuck with them for a little while. i eventually went with some a custom mastersound hats and loved them. i thought the entry level zildjians sounded terrible and were too expensive, so i was turned off by them.

i never cared for sabian until i bought my paragon ride. from then on i began looking closely at what they had to offer. i feel in love with the much of the paragon line and hhx line. comparable zildjians are more expensive, and frankly don't sound as good imo.

if i were into the sound of sabian aa's or zildjian a's, i don't know which one i would choose. they don't have any real differences. however, i don't feel zildjian has any that matches paragons or hhx's to the T. i think sabian wins that sound spectrum hands down. i still own and use two zildjians however, because i like their sound, but i typically try to find a sabian counterpart first.


having said all this, i do plan on buying some paistes in the future. i don't think any other company has anything comparable to their signature line of crahes. only thing is, they're really pricey.

[stevensonmat2]

Yeah, paiste sig's are one of those unique lines, like the paragons. In the future I might find myself a paiste guy; a lot of their cymbals have such a nice glassy sound which I've found appealing since before I played. Like I said, that signature splash I bought fit the sound in my head exactly; I've never had that with any other cymbal so far.

[LoneStarDrummer]

yeah, the glassy sound you get with paiste sigs is amazingly beautiful the first time you hear it, every time you hear actually. definitely a one off sound imo.

i want some mellow and full crashes badly, but i don't have that much money right now.

[Damo]

Damo, you should be receiving an e-mail from me shortly. You've pretty much settled my heart at this moment. Sabian and Sonor both should feel very good about maintaining an artist such as yourself.
Thanks mate!

With Sabian, Im actually only sponsored through Australia via the wholesaler (who are also a great bunch of people, btw).
I am still working up my cred/profile with the Sonor guys (although I am listed as an artist on their website) so still have some way to go there - but for the same reasons as Ive mentioned, Sonor have been very nice in their support of me over the years.

[Harrow]

Yes, because I obviously don't want those sounds.

If I did, I would buy them. What possible sound could I not get from any manufacturer?
Mmm it's fine that you are happy with your choice of a particular brand of cymbal, but this statement is TOTALLY wrong. If you really can't hear the difference between several brands competing lines you should have your ears checked :) I personally couldn't care less about aesthetics, there is no way people in a crowd are going to notice if all the tiny black writing on your cymbals match or not. That being said I just noticed that since I've been using a smaller setup lately with fewer pieces all my cymbals happen to be Meinl :D

[Harrow]

I don't think there are many sounds you can get from one brand that you can't get from any other, except maybe with some of those crazy effect cymbals. Each brand has their own sets to compete with all the others.
If you are referring to the lines that often the brilliant modern sound that most of the big companies have this is true there is little difference. However, when comparing the lines which are made to recreate the vintage sound there is a HUGE desparity from company to company.

[sleepless]

Harrow, I was referring to the generalization of sound. As in I can get dark or bright cymbals from any company, and I can purchase hi-hats, rides, crashes, splashes, chinas from any company.

I care about aesthetics. It has nothing to do with what other people see, its personal for me, get over it.

Although, Damo and I have been talking back and forth and hes kind of opening my mind a little.

This thread isn't about my preference anyway so can it.

[ant_182]

I use Zildjian cymbals, FVF Custom drums, various snares, DW Pedals, DW/Tama Stands.

I started using Zildjian because I got a ZXT pack, it was reasonably priced and it had a well known logo on it, they souded awesome! Then, I stuck with the company, saw Travis Barker used them, could get them at the best price. Every Ziljdian Cymbal I've owned has sounded awesome at the time. I currently have 14" A Custom Mastersounds, two 18" A Custom Crashes and a 22" A Custom Ride in my set up. All of the cymbals compliment eachother nicely and I currently wouldn't change a thing. I did have a period where I used K Dark Crashes for that sound I loved. Anyway, back on topic! I have stuck with Zildjian because I have loved all of their cymbals, prices and variety of sounds. I did fall in love with a Paragon crash 20" which I wish I had of gotten, but couldn't at the time. I also love paiste 2002 cymbals. I just got in a rut with Zildjian and feel there's no need to change from something I'm perfectly happy with!

I recently got my FVF Custom Acyrlic kit and side snare (maple). I am totally happy with these drums and the support I got from Francis (Highly recomended for UK'ers). I am looking to get more drums from him very shortly! I love mapex drums and would have gone with them if I didn't go custom and probably stuck with them, to show support and to keep the sound flowing well. Mapex offer me some of the finest snare's I've heard with the Black Panther Ranges! However with drums, I have loads of snares I collect for different sounds that I barely use but know I will when the time comes!

I got my first DW pedal because I saw a great deal on Ebay! DW Double kicks for the price of a Single (used double kicks) I was really pleased with the pedal, but then I ditched double and found myself using single all the time! I felt I needed to get a new DW5000 becuase I had the old version and it was only single chain and I hadn't oiled it etc. to keep it totally smooth. Receiving the new DW5000 I was completely satisfied and not yet had ANY problems! I then got the 5K hat stand to upgrade my old one and it matched my bass drum pedal. I also knew it would be high quality. I have tried the Iron Cobra double kicks and can't fault them.

All of my cymbals (other than hi hats) are played on Tama Roadpro Stands. I bought these all because of the quality and price, I would only change if I was endorsed and got others for free/cheap. I use dw tom stand becuase I know it's rock solid and I had the extra cash to pay for it.

Alot of my early purchases are from influence (Cymbals I liked from drummers I liked the sounds of/pedals I saw drummers using) and I have stuck with that brand because I'm happy with it. It doesn't mean to say that I
have the best cymbal sound etc. I use all of my gear because I like the sound of it, I've had cymbals that I've sold because my sound tastes changed, same with snares. I probably will stick with Zildjian and FVF because I'm happy with them. not sure if I replied correctly. :)

[sleepless]

Absolutely! Great contribution...

I'm not a huge fan of Barker myself, but I like seeing how a Zildjian artist did have influence on you!

After I purchased my Sabian hi-hats I stuck with the brand because I liked a lot of what I heard in Mike Portnoy's set-up.

I did almost change years ago, right after the release of 13th Step by APC, I wanted all of the cymbals that Josh Freese used, haha!

[Mr Pink]

llama.

[Drum Phil]

Brand loyalty is pretty stupid when you pass up a better peice of kit for one thats the brand you like. I dont personally have any real loyalties as far as equipment is concerned. I dont see a problem with it if you like the companys stuff more than anything else, but when you're blind to other products because of it, then its a bit daft really.

Personally i use:

Mapex/Pearl/Sonor drums and snares
Yamaha/Pearl/Stagg hardware
Meinl/Zildjian/Sabian/Stagg cymbals

Not because of the brand name, but because of the products.

[Solomon Grundy]

Brand loyalty is pretty silly in general. Music is commercial enough; why make something that is intrinsically artistic in nature even more influenced by marketing and industry?

I can understand major artists making themselves walking advertisements for a company... someone like Terry Bozzio stands to benefit by getting a lot of free stuff and perhaps an equal amount of promotion for himself for sticking with a certain brand.

But if you're playing in bar bands in Australia, modding an internet forum, and running a website with occasional updates on drumming, I would think you wouldn't reap nearly as many benefits by limiting yourself to one company's product. Sure, maybe they give you some discounts or something, but you don't stand a great chance of furthering your artistic goals and getting your music out there when your "artist profile" page is buried in the annals of a website where no one will look.

Discounts aside, if you're consistently purchasing new equipment you're pretty foolish to begin with. I've gotten tons of positive comments on my drum sound, touring the east coast, from sound guys, other bands, and patrons alike. Thing is, my drums were really really cheap, and bought used. I just know how to tune very well, and have a very good touch. Don't fool yourself into thinking you need some rare african wood drum or some special exotic finish. Make good sounds and good music. I've heard expensive DW kits that sound awful and pearl exports that sing. People get too caught up in gear... start caring more about music. Gear talk is mostly for hobbyists. Many professional musicians I have met don't give a **** about that sort of thing.

You really aren't spending enough time playing music if you really bother to compare the "feel" of iron cobra, dw 9000, axis, and whatever other double pedals. Who cares? As long as it's not a piece of **** and falling apart, you should be able to play it. Real artists don't worry about beater throw and different cams and all that nonsense. Musical athletes like Virgil Donati might, though. But I think his nonsense speaks for itself.

I realize that drums and hardware are a little different than cymbals. With cymbals, you actually need to buy some higher end equipment to get an adequate sound. Still, why limit yourself to one company? Don't forget that regardless of dealing with an artistic endeavor, these are still companies. Their goals are to get you to buy their product. Unless the company is going to really give you some edge by marketing you as an artist, why bother?

Stop being dumb and go wash the labels off your cymbals.

I'm not a "sabian artist"

I'm not a "zildjian artist"

I'm my own artist.


Almost every sabian cymbal I've played (which is many, whether it be in stores or the tons we had in practice rooms at school) has sounded amateurish and tinny. I somewhat liked the prototype Ralph Peterson rides I tried, but that's about it. Something about their cymbals to my ears just makes them belong in this undesirable timbre class that belongs in overproduced music.

I do like some zildjian cymbals, though they too have their fair share of crap. The K hybrid series is awful. The rides and crashes I tried from that series sound like a small step up from Z's.

Even though I prefer zildjian cymbals over sabian, doesn't mean i'm going to let some silly marketing concept like brand loyalty stop me from owning the wuhan, instanbuls, and meinl I own.

[sleepless]

You're an idiot if you don't think there's a difference worth nothing between an Axis and a 9000.

We're talking about brand loyalty, what different brands actually offer to artists that make us happy with them.

You're speaking of brand whoring and gimmick marketing, which does not belong here. Go die somewhere, alone.

[Harrow]

Harrow, I was referring to the generalization of sound. As in I can get dark or bright cymbals from any company, and I can purchase hi-hats, rides, crashes, splashes, chinas from any company.

I care about aesthetics. It has nothing to do with what other people see, its personal for me, get over it.

Although, Damo and I have been talking back and forth and hes kind of opening my mind a little.

This thread isn't about my preference anyway so can it.
Yeah god forbid anyone disagree with you on the internet. If you wanted the thread to include replies from only people who disagree with you then you should have probably included that information in the original post.

If you are happy enough to sackride Sabian cymbals simply because you like they way they look and you can get any GENERAL generic sound you want that is fine, that is your choice. However, there are many people who look for very specific characteristics when they choose their cymbals. When it comes to any vintage-sounding, dark, esoteric sounding cymbal, the differences are huge from brand to brand. Anyone who argues against that is foolish.

This thread is about you rationalizing your choice to buy only a certain brand of cymbals and to belittle people who disagree with you instead of attempting to come up with a logical argument. A+ job!

[sleepless]

This thread is about you rationalizing your choice to buy only a certain brand of cymbals and to belittle people who disagree with you instead of attempting to come up with a logical argument. A+ job!

Fail. :p

You people are so serious on the internet that its funny.

[Harrow]

Brand loyalty is pretty silly in general. Music is commercial enough; why make something that is intrinsically artistic in nature even more influenced by marketing and industry?

I can understand major artists making themselves walking advertisements for a company... someone like Terry Bozzio stands to benefit by getting a lot of free stuff and perhaps an equal amount of promotion for himself for sticking with a certain brand.

But if you're playing in bar bands in Australia, modding an internet forum, and running a website with occasional updates on drumming, I would think you wouldn't reap nearly as many benefits by limiting yourself to one company's product. Sure, maybe they give you some discounts or something, but you don't stand a great chance of furthering your artistic goals and getting your music out there when your "artist profile" page is buried in the annals of a website where no one will look.

Discounts aside, if you're consistently purchasing new equipment you're pretty foolish to begin with. I've gotten tons of positive comments on my drum sound, touring the east coast, from sound guys, other bands, and patrons alike. Thing is, my drums were really really cheap, and bought used. I just know how to tune very well, and have a very good touch. Don't fool yourself into thinking you need some rare african wood drum or some special exotic finish. Make good sounds and good music. I've heard expensive DW kits that sound awful and pearl exports that sing. People get too caught up in gear... start caring more about music. Gear talk is mostly for hobbyists. Many professional musicians I have met don't give a **** about that sort of thing.

You really aren't spending enough time playing music if you really bother to compare the "feel" of iron cobra, dw 9000, axis, and whatever other double pedals. Who cares? As long as it's not a piece of **** and falling apart, you should be able to play it. Real artists don't worry about beater throw and different cams and all that nonsense. Musical athletes like Virgil Donati might, though. But I think his nonsense speaks for itself.

I realize that drums and hardware are a little different than cymbals. With cymbals, you actually need to buy some higher end equipment to get an adequate sound. Still, why limit yourself to one company? Don't forget that regardless of dealing with an artistic endeavor, these are still companies. Their goals are to get you to buy their product. Unless the company is going to really give you some edge by marketing you as an artist, why bother?

Stop being dumb and go wash the labels off your cymbals.

I'm not a "sabian artist"

I'm not a "zildjian artist"

I'm my own artist.


Almost every sabian cymbal I've played (which is many, whether it be in stores or the tons we had in practice rooms at school) has sounded amateurish and tinny. I somewhat liked the prototype Ralph Peterson rides I tried, but that's about it. Something about their cymbals to my ears just makes them belong in this undesirable timbre class that belongs in overproduced music.

I do like some zildjian cymbals, though they too have their fair share of crap. The K hybrid series is awful. The rides and crashes I tried from that series sound like a small step up from Z's.

Even though I prefer zildjian cymbals over sabian, doesn't mean i'm going to let some silly marketing concept like brand loyalty stop me from owning the wuhan, instanbuls, and meinl I own.
Even though your post was well thought out and legitimate contribution to this thread, you will still be flamed by the douchebag OP since he is juvenile and cannot stand anyone disagreeing with him.

[sleepless]

When it comes to any vintage-sounding, dark, esoteric sounding cymbal, the differences are huge from brand to brand. Anyone who argues against that is foolish.

No one has argued that, dude. You're absolutely right.

[Retarded Chipple]

Quality before brand names. If I like the sound of a cymbal, then that's its selling point. If a pedal feels good, is designed well and doesn't look like it's gonna fall apart, then that's what's gonna make me want to buy it..

Until the day I'm endorsed/tied down by a certain company, the little label on the product means nothing to me. Sure, you might notice that a certain brand continuously makes something that, in your opinion, is complete crap and that another brand always make products that suit your tastes but you shouldn't feel obliged to buy a certain brand "just because".....I like to keep my brand options open because one day, that cymbal brand I've never liked the sounds of before might just have the product I'm looking for. If I wasn't to buy it because I didn't like the company or it didn't match the other brand(s) on my kit, I could end up missing out.

That's my take on it.
Other people can buy what they want, the same way I do.

[sleepless]

The whole point of me planning on buying all Paistes was because...

I don't currently own ANY cymbals. I just sold them a few weeks ago, and I figured, if I'm going to explore some Paiste sounds, why not explore all of them, and try to find some sounds that I like that they offer.

It wasn't "Oh, I HAVE to have ALL Paistes in my set-up in case someone gets close enough to the stage to see my labels."

I figured, since I'm starting from scratch, why not.

That wasn't the debate here.

I meant to speak about customer relations, product offerings, etc.

I can handle disagreement just fine, no one can handle me disagreeing back it seems.

[Seafroggys]

-snip-

'Sup Josiah.

[trysthedrummer]

When I started to play drums the first upgrade I got was a Paiste crash and some zildjian zxt cymbals (still got the 8" splash mounted under my home made bell, excellent combination!).

I was after a new pair of hats and a better crash, (both recommended to me) which were Sabian's AA reg hats and AAXPlosion, both of which I love. I think this was the turning point to owning even more, and since then, I've not had a problem with ANY (no breakage!) and the prices are not steep I don't think. I've tested alot of cymbals over the years at numerous conventions but I always go back to Sabian. Sure, there are some sweet sounding cymbals from Meinl (byzances are gorgeous) and Zildjian's A Custom range, but I felt it would sound better to choose from one cymbal maker. And to be honest, 'aesthetically pleasing' to look at especially with the same logos.

Drums wise, I got a bit of deal with my Limited Edition Starclassics, so I went for it. They sound sweet and look great. At the time I was considering getting some Sonor 3007's untill I saw this bargain. All the snares are from Pearl and Tama.

Salomon Grundy -


With cymbals, you actually need to buy some higher end equipment to get an adequate sound.


This goes for kits too? Probably the person who tuned the dw didn't know how to, and with the export they did. This is why the more expensive drums are made with different woods and hoops to give different sound characteristics. If you tuned an export with the same heads as the dw, evenly tuned, then you would be able to tell the difference. When you start to compare the delite range, dw's and the masters series then which one?

[sleepless]

But if you're playing in bar bands in Australia, modding an internet forum, and running a website with occasional updates on drumming, I would think you wouldn't reap nearly as many benefits by limiting yourself to one company's product. Sure, maybe they give you some discounts or something, but you don't stand a great chance of furthering your artistic goals and getting your music out there when your "artist profile" page is buried in the annals of a website where no one will look.

Obviously talking sh it about Damo.

Who is this ****?

[bobby__johnny]

everyone knows i brand whore Sabian - mainly from a convienence factor more than anything.

They're produced where i live, thus more shops tend to stock them. Yes i have Zildjian, and even some Paiste available to me, but the diversity of sound isnt there.

[trysthedrummer]

I don't know Sleepless, seems a bit of a tw@t.

[Solomon Grundy]

This goes for kits too? Probably the person who tuned the dw didn't know how to, and with the export they did. This is why the more expensive drums are made with different woods and hoops to give different sound characteristics. If you tuned an export with the same heads as the dw, evenly tuned, then you would be able to tell the difference. When you start to compare the delite range, dw's and the masters series then which one?

You miss the point.

I'm saying in a blindfold test most people here would be hard pressed to judge between a low cost kits like an export, catalina club, rydeen, pacific, etc. and higher range kits like DW, masters, oak custom, and usa custom if they were all tuned by the same person and played by the same drummer, with identical cymbals, etc.

I would be really interested in the results of people trying to blindly identify the differences in sound quality, the make of the drums, and which is more desirable if such a test were feasible.

[trysthedrummer]

I don't miss the point. Let's go over it again.

With cymbals, you actually need to buy some higher end equipment to get an adequate sound.

With drums, you actually need to buy some higher end equipment to get an adequate sound.

Different drums sound different and I'm sure you would be able to tell the difference from a low end to a higher end kit. It's just not the cymbals you need to be spending more money on. You are right with being able to notifying the manufacturer. Blindfolded, this is going to be pretty dam right tough unless you've been listening with great ears for years paying attention to the different frequencies the drums give off at different tunings.

[Damo]

But if you're playing in bar bands in Australia, modding an internet forum, and running a website with occasional updates on drumming, I would think you wouldn't reap nearly as many benefits by limiting yourself to one company's product. Sure, maybe they give you some discounts or something, but you don't stand a great chance of furthering your artistic goals and getting your music out there when your "artist profile" page is buried in the annals of a website where no one will look.
How would you know?

I stand a better chance than the guy who has nothing better to do than slam those who give it a try. OF COURSE I benefit by aligning myself to a companies products, especially when they are products I WANT to be playing.

For your information, my website, this and other forums, my 'bar bands', corporate bands, original bands, retailing, magazine contributions, drum clinics etc ALL have added to do a hell of a lot more for my career than sitting on my backside waiting for someone to notice.

[sleepless]

According to his logic...

Playing a 5 piece Pulse drumset with a Sound Percussion picollo snare, with Sabian B8 hi-hats, a Wuhan China, a Zildjian ZXT Titanium crash, a Paiste Alpha ride, Pacific double bass pedal and various stands and a kitchen chair for a throne are more likely to garner your artistic recognition and help you advance your music.

[Solomon Grundy]

Incorrect.


I was inferring that you are equally able to make good music with average equipment as with top of the line equipment, and that when you are at the top of the line, differences between brands aren't worth worrying about.

Also, your reasoning is flawed because you make the assumption that recognition in some drum magazine or something defines success. We all know there are tons of shitty unartistic bands and musicians who make money. Doesn't mean they are successful.

[Retarded Chipple]

Depends what your definition of "successful" is....

[sLarkin20]

Argh I can't stand other people buying stuff for what I think are the wrong reasons, even if it's not my ****ing money or opinion that matter in any way.

[Aaron]

No matter what gear you have, if you can't play well then it won't sound good. Practice is the key.

[sleepless]

Also, your reasoning is flawed because you make the assumption that recognition in some drum magazine or something defines success. We all know there are tons of poopty unartistic bands and musicians who make money. Doesn't mean they are successful.

Way to go, put words in my mouth and force statements from me to support your logic yet again.

Damn, you're good. You're so smart, I just can't combat it with anything.

If people saw your setup without hearing you play, they would assume that you were a joke because you don't even take yourself seriously enough to buy anything but sub-par equipment.

Hopefully your playing can make up for it.

[bobby__johnny]

Depends what your definition of "successful" is....

if i can quit my day job to make music, i've made it. end story. could be an equal earning to what i make now, or 8 figures a year. doesnt matter once i hit that point.

[trysthedrummer]

Kinda of true. A good drummer can make it sound good.

Although no matter how well you drum this won't change that certain sound the snare head and reso produces.

[sleepless]

if i can quit my day job to make music, i've made it. end story. could be an equal earning to what i make now, or 8 figures a year. doesnt matter once i hit that point.

THIS.

I don't care if you like Slipknot, I don't care if you like Nickelback.

They make music for a living...my dream. It should be all of ours' collective dream as well.

[sLarkin20]

Hopefully they are making music they like for a living, and not making whatever music is selling good at the time for a living.

[sleepless]

True, I wouldn't want to be in Nickelback making the music that they make.

But I almost moved to Memphis to be in a paying gig behind a female country artist, just because I was sick of the mundane. I wanted to get paid to make music for a living...

[bobby__johnny]

Hopefully they are making music they like for a living, and not making whatever music is selling good at the time for a living.

tell that to guys like Josh Freese. he might not like the music he's doing a session for, but people pay him because he's gonna sure as hell make it sound like he does.

[Solomon Grundy]

If people saw your setup without hearing you play, they would assume that you were a joke because you don't even take yourself seriously enough to buy anything but sub-par equipment.

Hopefully your playing can make up for it.

You don't even know my setup, what bands or artists I have played with or currently play with, etc. I have criticized you for things that you have claimed yourself to be, such as "sabian artist".

Talk about wrongfully attributing ideas and words to people. I simply said I play on equipment that didn't cost me much to buy. It was used, but is still functional and decent. I never said play crappy equipment, I said brand loyalty is ridiculous and is by definition the goal of marketing in business. I also said that worrying so much about gear is stupid. Find something that works and makes the sound you want, and get busy making music.

I never implied you should buy a pulse drum set or anything along those lines. I just said that gear of a comparable quality set among different manufacturers isn't worth fussing over so much.

Also, for those of you who define success as playing with an artist that pays you enough to be considered a job.... well, I guess it just separates the artists from guys who just play instruments for a living.

[sleepless]

Nice long post that I won't even bother to read.

You're g a y. Quit crying and kill yourself plz.

[mattsmith]

Incorrect.


I was inferring that you are equally able to make good music with average equipment as with top of the line equipment, and that when you are at the top of the line, differences between brands aren't worth worrying about.

Also, your reasoning is flawed because you make the assumption that recognition in some drum magazine or something defines success. We all know there are tons of poopty unartistic bands and musicians who make money. Doesn't mean they are successful.
Congratulations Josiah on your improved grammar and frequent use of the spell checker. I didn't spot a single Non-the-less. Oh wait a minute...poopty...I know who this is. Never mind.

[sLarkin20]

Wait, so is that Josiah or Jezen?

[sleepless]

Josezen!

TROLL AMALGAM.

[Plan B.]

yaaaaaaaaay he's back!

[sLarkin20]

Yay!

[Artyr]

I'm pretty new to drumming so I can't really say that I have "brand loyalty", but I do have preference. Right now my reasons are pretty simple, as I'm not used to telling the differences between brands and I don't really have money to go out and buy anything anyway.

For cymbals I prefer Sabian. I'm not against trying other brands, but for now all my cymbals are Xs20. This is mainly because of their price and the deal I got off of Ebay (almost half off normal) and their recommendation to me after I said I was looking at Paiste Pst5. They're not bad either, but I'd definately like an upgrade.

Other things I like about Sabian is their clear cymbal line names, such as HH for hand-hammered, etc. It's really easy to understand what kind of sound I can expect from each line, unlike Zildjian. I mean, what am I to expect from "K Customs" exactly?

As for drums I like Gretsch a lot because of their history of building good jazz and classic rock type drums (open, resonant, etc.) and their price for the quality of shell. I also like that their toms come with a rim mount rather than those unwieldy tube mounts on others. They sound great, they look great, and the price was right. I think I'll keep going Gretsch. Those rosewoods look nice.

Pedals were a simple choice for me. I sat down in the shop and tried out a few hi-hat pedals, noting that some were faster, others stronger. I chose an Iron Cobra because it was fast and I liked the strap rather than chain drive of the others. I chose my bass pedal for the same reason. And it matched.

My stands I'm gonna have to replace cause they're all really crappy. I'm thinking either Tama or Gibralter. And there's really only two brands for rototoms: Remo and some no name brand. I have both cause Remo's expensive.

I chose Evans for my heads becase... well, I didn't really choose them. They came with my set, but I had to replace my rototom heads and I really liked the Evans so I went with them. I also like them for the same reason I like Sabian; it's easy to find what I want. EC1 = 1 ply; EC2 = 2 ply; J1 = jazz; etc.

[Little Android Man]

Congratulations Josiah on your improved grammar and frequent use of the spell checker. I didn't spot a single Non-the-less. Oh wait a minute...poopty...I know who this is. Never mind.

can you get over yourself? ****, it isn't Josiah so stop claiming that every ****ing new user that comes around with some long advice or slight trolling is Josiah.

[Harrow]

Oh and this whole time I thought Josiah was the only troll on the internet.

[Panopticon]

i lol at all of you tbh.

[LoneStarDrummer]

laugh at me and i'll stab you



i definitely have preferences in brands for things like hardware and drums.however, i don't have any sort of loyalty. as far as snares go, i've got different brands and i'm always looking for more.


i think having preferences are totally normal, but limiting yourself to one brand is kinda dumb if you don't at least give other brands a fair chance. not trying out one brand because it's not your current favorite is kinda silly.

[Harrow]

laugh at me and i'll stab you



i definitely have preferences in brands for things like hardware and drums.however, i don't have any sort of loyalty. as far as snares go, i've got different brands and i'm always looking for more.
Nice try Josiah you sneaky son of a bi tch. It was your plan all along to register that account 4 years ago and post 4000 times on it so no one would think it was you when you came back in dec 2008 after being banned multiple times. You almost got away with it too...

[Panopticon]

not laugh...lol!

[LoneStarDrummer]

ahhh. i hate you. how did you know. i thought i finally came up with the perfect plan.


all the planning, all the posting....wasted because of you. you must die now.

[Harrow]

fck i knew it...

[sLarkin20]

So what accounts AREN'T Josiah, cause this one is, too :\

[Little Android Man]

Nice try Josiah you sneaky son of a bi tch. It was your plan all along to register that account 4 years ago and post 4000 times on it so no one would think it was you when you came back in dec 2008 after being banned multiple times. You almost got away with it too...

i wish there was still rep.

[Mr Pink]

You miss the point.

I'm saying in a blindfold test most people here would be hard pressed to judge between a low cost kits like an export, catalina club, rydeen, pacific, etc. and higher range kits like DW, masters, oak custom, and usa custom if they were all tuned by the same person and played by the same drummer, with identical cymbals, etc.

I would be really interested in the results of people trying to blindly identify the differences in sound quality, the make of the drums, and which is more desirable if such a test were feasible.

Hey Josiah. How you doing?:wave:

[Solomon Grundy]

I was certainly here for Josiah's reign of terror, but I am not him. That guy was an asshole, though he had some interesting things to say at times. It was just often overshadowed by his internet tough guy persona.

[Mr Pink]

Loyalty is a two way street. I am loyal to a brand of drums because they build me exactly what I want, it sounds exactly like I want. They go out of their way to take care of me and my needs. I return the loyalty by using that product and getting 90% of my drums from them. We are doing something to help each other. That to me is brand loyalty, a relationship between player and company. If you own a kit because you got a free tom with it, that is not brand loyalty. That is economics.

[Solomon Grundy]

Loyalty is a two way street. I am loyal to a brand of drums because they build me exactly what I want, it sounds exactly like I want. They go out of their way to take care of me and my needs. I return the loyalty by using that product and getting 90% of my drums from them. We are doing something to help each other. That to me is brand loyalty, a relationship between player and company. If you own a kit because you got a free tom with it, that is not brand loyalty. That is economics.

Yes, this is a good point.

It is a more succinct version of one of my points. Though I was a little hard on Damien, and I don't know the exact nature of his endorsement deal, it seems like they are doing little to give back to him. Sure, a discount must be nice, but they certainly aren't featuring him or his work in their promotional material, nor are they building him any signature or unique instruments.

Some might argue that you have to start somewhere, thus the different "levels" of endorsement. Not everyone can have Bozzio or Peart endorsements right away. Though I would counter, why bother with low level endorsements? If they aren't giving you much in the form of promotion for your art, I don't think it's worth some cheaper cymbals. You're limiting your choice of instruments to one company for what seems like little in return.

Another point I would strive to make is to get amateur and young players out of the mindset that gear is SO important. People like to think that their taste in gear is unique and that they have a good ear for cymbal and drum sounds, but most people don't.

I would feel like a chump whoring myself out to some company during my concerts anyway.

[mattsmith]

Yes, this is a good point.

It is a more succinct version of one of my points. Though I was a little hard on Damien, and I don't know the exact nature of his endorsement deal, it seems like they are doing little to give back to him. Sure, a discount must be nice, but they certainly aren't featuring him or his work in their promotional material, nor are they building him any signature or unique instruments.

Some might argue that you have to start somewhere, thus the different "levels" of endorsement. Not everyone can have Bozzio or Peart endorsements right away. Though I would counter, why bother with low level endorsements? If they aren't giving you much in the form of promotion for your art, I don't think it's worth some cheaper cymbals. You're limiting your choice of instruments to one company for what seems like little in return.

Another point I would strive to make is to get amateur and young players out of the mindset that gear is SO important. People like to think that their taste in gear is unique and that they have a good ear for cymbal and drum sounds, but most people don't.

I would feel like a chump whoring myself out to some company during my concerts anyway.

I see Cameron's point to a large extent, except that in Pink's case, his Porkpie endorsement does seem to cover a lot of bases. I think it's also best to endorse products you already use and would purchase even if no endorsement was present. And again Pink loves his Porkpies. I was already using Zildjian, Slapstik and Power Wrist Builders before the endorsements, and believed in the products. So I think it has made the promotions more genuine for all parties. PWB even made a nice promotional poster and they've shown my face in Drum 2 of the past 3 issues. Slapstik is footing my bill at NAMM. That's the kind of thing I'm needing more of now, especially while I'm in school, unable to tour all that much. Besides my name rec at this stage is only C level at best.

Cameron's also right about the preoccupation with some of the gear issues. When I lived in Eastern Europe, I used to see great players using crap kits all the time, with very marginal quality differences, except for cymbals where I do think, it's very easy to hear substantial differences in quality.

Btw Little Android Man or whatever you're calling yourself: Work very hard on controlling the urge to respond to my posts. They're none of your business. Next time just turn your head and cough. Pink, myself or anyone else will handle our issues any way we please. You're way out of your comprehension for understanding, and it's a joke to anyone but yourself to believe anything else.

[Solomon Grundy]

I am at a loss yet again for this controversy over my identity. When I used the word "poopty" I was simply being corrected by the automatic censor on the forum. I really wanted to say "shitty"

Wouldn't it be possible that I'm not an alternate account? I won't waste any more time indulging your speculation, but for the record, I've been accused of being different users in the guitar and bass forums too. I'm simply a sometime lurker who really only posts when I'm not at school or have time off from my life.

[Damo]

Though I was a little hard on Damien, and I don't know the exact nature of his endorsement deal, it seems like they are doing little to give back to him.
In fact they have already done lots for me and continue to assist when and where I need it. That being said, Im a realist and understand that theyll only give if and when Im able to do my job as an endorser and bring people to the brand. If I was lucky enough to get into a major band tomorrow, it would all change, but Im at a happy balance between what I can do for them, and what they do for me (Sabian, Sonor, Aquarian and ProMark)

Sure, a discount must be nice, but they certainly aren't featuring him or his work in their promotional material, nor are they building him any signature or unique instruments.
I believe your idea of endorsements may be a little skewed and utopian. The dream is that we all get free gear or better yet, get paid to play a companies product, to which they then plaster you over drum magazines and help your profile go through the roof, while you travel the word having the time of your life playing the music you love.

The reality is far less exciting. 95% of endorsing artists are in the same position I am in. We are assisted with discounts, we have the flexibility to have some custom gear made for ourselves. If were really fortunate, we may also get our name listed on a manufacturers website as an endorsing artist, but endorsements are not a gift - You work your butt off to get them and maintain them by consistently working, as I do.
It matters not who you play for or how good your band is. Exposure is the key.

Do I get the same perks as guys like Jojo Mayer or Vinnie C? Absolutely not. But Im not even 3% the player they are, and Im sure even they were at a point where they werent recognised and had to work hard for what theyve achieved. Most of them had probably already made it by the time sponsors even took notice.

Ive been fortunate to get more recognition for what I do and meet more people in the circle than anyone I know around me - who are just happy to play or who have no idea how to promote themselves.
The payoff for me right now is small, but its increasing. While it does, Ill happily continue to do what I do. I may never get to worldwide exposure through the brands that I endorse, but I love their gear - so I lose nothing.

The bottom line is, if you get into this game expecting handouts, you've completely missed the point - and are probably better off packing it in, as youre always going to put in more than you'll feel its worth, be it endorsements, bands, tours, whatever.

[sLarkin20]

Not everyone can have Bozzio or Peart endorsements right away. Though I would counter, why bother with low level endorsements?

Are you kidding? For one thing, it's more like hardly ANYONE starts off with full endorsements like those two. Also, why bother with low level endorsements? Because it's called working your way up from the bottom, like most people will have to end up doing in their life. It's the same reason why you don't see many people jumping straight to the head of Fortune 500 companies as CEOs and what not. Unless you are one of the very few that happens to have great connections, or you are extremely lucky, you're going to be working your way up from the bottom, which is the point of low-level endorsements, line-level working positions, etc.

would feel like a chump whoring myself out to some company during my concerts anyway.

That's called being sponsored. You know, you get incentives and discounts, or recognition, to represent X company and sell their products...

You seem to think that common business practices and tactics don't apply to musicians and music companies.

[trysthedrummer]

Jezen it better not be you. I know you've said an spatula lots of times.

[The Feeding]

i'm not going to lie i am a Sabian whore
and Pearl drums...

[DxRocker]

I'm pretty much an Istanbul prostitute.... :)

I love them and am loyal to them for several reasons:
- they sound amazing.
- They are completely handmade, no machine is used in any way.
- these are (imo) the only cymbals that still capture the awesome sound the jewel Zildjans had back in the 60s. They just don't make them like that anymore...

I also really love the fact that these are like the "original" cymbals. Both Sabian and Zildjan were in fact Istanbul in a previous life, before they went into mass production in the States.

The master cymbal smiths that created the old K's etc... they all did it in that smokey basement were the lovely Istanbuls are made today, same tools and everything... Their knowledge and methods live on till this day in that very basement.

So any brand will have a really hard time trying to convince me to switch :)

[DxRocker]

As for drums... Whenever I browse to look for a new set, I automatically turn to Tama.
When I think about that dream set that I will most probably never be able to afford, for some reason I automatically add a Tama label on the drums...

I'm not really sure why. I played Sonors and loved them. Pearls and loved them.
yet... I prefer tama. I really don't have any specific reason for this. I just like them that little bit better then the other brands I guess...

[Drum Phil]

Dx, i beleive Meinl Byzance cymbals are made in the same way. I know they're made in instanbul too.

[Aaron]

As with Bosphorous.

[CasB]

I'm pretty brand loyal myself. Or better: I know what brands I don't want to play.

I don't like Pearls (although I play one), Tama. Sonor isn't my cup of tea. I don't have anything against Mapex, Yamaha, but I wouldn't buy one, I guess. Ddrum has become decent (upper level kits), but also isn't it. I have something with Premier. I don't know why, but I just can't help it.

As for cymbals, I hate Zildjian and Sabian, because their cymbals sound so produces and unpersonal. I play Masterwork myself, and I might buy some Amedia or Anatolians. Only because they're hand made, and nothing can beat that.

Heads: I don't like the coating on Remo's, evans doesn't appeal to me, and aquarian sounds great, so Aquarian it is.

Sticks: Balbex are cheap and better than any other sticks I played with.

Hardware: Bigdog is sturdy and at a good price. Just a matter of taste I guess.

[Plan B.]

lol balbex

[DxRocker]

Dx, i beleive Meinl Byzance cymbals are made in the same way. I know they're made in instanbul too.

No, they are made in the Meinl factory just like all the others.

Only difference is that they are shipped to Istanbul first to have them hammered there (sort of a "fine-tune") :)

As with Bosphorous.

Most brands from Istanbul (the city) are indeed sprung off's of that "original" factory, yes. Bosphorus, Turk, Mehmet and Agop.

However, Istanbul Agop is like the "true heir of the throne". Figure of speech though, hahaha.

It's just, if you look at the lineage of master smiths passing on the knowledge, you get a direct line with Agop. The others went their own way or had some kind of "outside" influence.

All great cymbals for sure though. Played most of them. Some lines aren't even that different. In fact, there are multiple more or less identical lines that are carried by both Mehmet and Agop.

I just have a weak spot for stories and tradition. And that's what I get with Agop. Plus, I went to that basement myself and hand picked the cymbals I wanted. They came straight from production. Half of those I bought didn't even have logo's on them yet. They printed those on while I was having tea with the big chief in charge :)

[Zebba]

Where is the fun in brand loyalty, never get to branch out and check new things, there is not one single best thing and not one thing best suited to you aswell... good luck if you can actually find the brand you will be most satisfied in life, always something better... suited.

[DxRocker]

Can you tell me anything about Alchemys?

I'm no expert though. What I know is that alchemies are generally regarded as the only line of Agop that carries models that aren't "high end". Those are the only models that aren't completely hand made. What are they called again? Alchemy ART or something like that?

Except for the Alchemy Professional series. They are fully handmade just like the other lines, and they are extremely neat :)
I have alchemy sweet hats, ride and power splashes.

I think that's the only line Agop designed from scratch as well. As good as all the other lines are based on the old models from the old zildjan factory.

[DxRocker]

Where is the fun in brand loyalty, never get to branch out and check new things, there is not one single best thing and not one thing best suited to you aswell... good luck if you can actually find the brand you will be most satisfied in life, always something better... suited.

Most brands carry enough models/lines so that you get something for most styles.

I think it's pretty naïve to say that brand X is incapable of delivering you the sounds you want for style Y.

I also think it's wrong to state that cymbal X is better "suited" for style Y as a generalisation. In the end, all that comes down to taste and personal preference. There's no rule stating that you can't use paiste crudes in jazz. Or flat rides in heavy metal.

I don't see how a mixture of brands would give me a surplus compared to a setup of the same brand...
Just like I don't see how a setup of the same brand would give me a surplus compared to a mixture...

So it's just a choice I've made to stick with Istanbuls, based upon different factors: they are great cymbals, there's a nice story attached (handmade and blablabla) and the price tag (in my case) was impossible to beat by any other brand out there in that quality range...

[Zebba]

Yes but that is not loyalty, are you saying if Istanbul upped the prices on all there cymbals and brang out new series of cymbals and stopped making the series you're using now for a matter of reason, you would stay loyal and still stick with Istanbul even if it now did not suit the needs of your playing?

You would be crazy if you did, I can safely say on my kit there is different brands right left and center as I feel to rely on one brand to give you what you want is to much and you need to explore different brands to see what they offer and even mix things around.

[DxRocker]

Yes but that is not loyalty, are you saying if Istanbul upped the prices on all there cymbals and brang out new series of cymbals and stopped making the series you're using now for a matter of reason, you would stay loyal and still stick with Istanbul even if it now did not suit the needs of your playing?

Well yeah, sure... if the factors change, the end decision might change as well.

But for that to happen they would have to change their entire concept/philosophy.

They would have to tripple their price for it to match zildjan prices (for me, I buy them in Turkey. over here in belgium, the cost is about the same or more expensive! :) )
And they would have to throw out 40+ years of tradition to bring out completely different lines of cymbals.

So if those factors would change, it wouldn't be the same company afterwards... :)

So really, I guess you could say that I'm not necissarily "loyal" to their products only, but the big picture. The tradition, the concept, what the company stands for and where it comes from. The entire package appeals to me, beginning with the quality of the products themselves.

The first and most important factor of course always stays the sound.

[trysthedrummer]

I remember a while back you went to Turkey and brought a hell load of Istanbuls back!

You still got them all?

I was testing alot of the ranges at the London Music show in summer, and they just sounded gorgeous.

[DxRocker]

I remember a while back you went to Turkey and brought a hell load of Istanbuls back!

You still got them all?


Off course :)
The splashes and a 14" crash cracked though. But I got in touch with the company and they send me bright new ones for free. I just had to pay the shipping cost. This happened only a few months after I got back, so I still had warranty (thank god).

@Sleepless,
I believe your best bet in the US would be http://www.cymbalsonly.com/
That guy seems to be a big fan of Istanbul cymbals :)
Only downside: it's a webshop. So trying them out if not really an option I guess. Which is... generally not good when buying complete hand made gear, even though he has sound samples up from the very cymbal that you'll get when buying...

[Harrow]

If you are looking for istanbuls also try http://www.cymbalismmusic.com they have much more in stock than cymbalsonly. However they do not list the weights or have the recordings for each individual cymbal. Still, if you can't find it on cymbalsonly you can go to cymbalism.