Afterlife

[DemonicRubberDucky]

So, what's your personal view on this sort of thing?

I know that as a really young kid here, i was adamant about my christianity; now, i'll say that i'm a christian, "or at least an agnostic"; meaning i believe that there must at least be a god/god(s). Say what you want, but to me, atheism makes no ****ing sense, that we were created from absolutely nothing whatsoever for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

So... i suppose that if i believe in a god, then i believe in an afterlife, cuz god wouldn't just create beings to live for an extraordinarily short amount of time and boom-boom, the end.

That being said...

I'm not totally sure about what i believe, but i'm skeptical to the point of nearly-absolute-doubt about the traditional heaven/hell setup. First off, the traditional concept of hell is absurd. That a loving god could put something that he created and loved into horrendous pain for eternity is just. Sorta. ****ing. Dumb. Secondly, on the other hand, absolute eternal happiness is pointless. Existence would be pointless without conflict. How could it be not? [then again, would pointlessness really be a factor to god/the gods?]

I dunno, do you get a personal heaven? If not, is heaven like a ****ing giant hotel or something? I dunno. Well, go for it everyone, i guess.

[OMGaDINOSAUR]

Atheism is stupid? What?

[DemonicRubberDucky]

Of course, everyone has a right to argue their opinion, but generally, i think so. I believe that we must've been created for some reason...

[Dimmu Burger]

Heaven or Hell.

[OMGaDINOSAUR]

Why do you think we were created for a reason? What could that reason possibly be?

[Dimmu Burger]

Entertainment.

[DemonicRubberDucky]

I'm not sure what the reason would be, but I would guess that if we're creations, then god/the gods work in ways that are beyond us.

So yeah. I bet that it sounds sorta stupid in the eyes of an atheist, but i guess that the reason(s) is/are known only by god/the gods.

...or entertainment.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

i dont believe in hell because i dont want to

its easy then you can do whatever you want and shi like what im doing now

[Bread and Faxes]

This isn't a GD topic that will be taken seriously. So I moved it.

[OMGaDINOSAUR]

If you think we exist for a reason wouldn't you also have to say that everything else in this world was created for a reason?

It just happened by chance. We evolved into who/what we are and will continue to change as time goes by.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

I'm not sure what the reason would be, but I would guess that if we're creations, then god/the gods work in ways that are beyond us.

So yeah. I bet that it sounds sorta stupid in the eyes of an atheist, but i guess that the reason(s) is/are known only by god/the gods.

...or entertainment.
no stop with the entertainment

i believe god is too high above to even consider this entertainment since already knows everything that gonna happen

[DemonicRubberDucky]

Thanks :] (to BAF)

[Bread and Faxes]

you're welcome.

[funluvinhobo]

Id like to but i cant :/

[DemonicRubberDucky]

Id like to but i cant :/

like to what?

[funluvinhobo]

like to what?

Believe in an afterlife and such.

[DemonicRubberDucky]

Believe in an afterlife and such.

Too much of a like, huuuuge overwhelming-type concept?

Sometimes i do feel really overwhelmed thinking about it

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Too much of a like, huuuuge overwhelming-type concept?

Sometimes i do feel really overwhelmed thinking about it
you're being a little goat who climbs on trees thats why

[DemonicRubberDucky]

I do for the most part try to live the "Life is happening right now, so let's enjoy it at the moment" as much as i can, but sometimes this stuff just hits me hard. I dunno. I suppose that you take it more lightly?

[funluvinhobo]

Too much of a like, huuuuge overwhelming-type concept?

Sometimes i do feel really overwhelmed thinking about it

Not thats a huge overwhelming concept its just that having souls and life after death dosent make any sense to me. Like do all beings go to heaven? Were not that superior to other living things on earth we just happened to gain intelligence in evolution, that dosent magically grant us a soul and permit us to an afterlife. Also I think that if we were created or designed our makers could have come up with a better model, humans aren't that great....just intelligent.

I wish i could believe in an afterlife, Itd be nice and reassuring but it just makes no sense to me..

[DemonicRubberDucky]

Also I think that if we were created or designed our makers could have come up with a better model

agreed

[Babble]

So, for you to believe in God, you must believe there is a supernatural being that has power to change the natural world. As far as we know, the universe is completely systematic (if quite far beyond our ability to comprehend). Physics laws and theories beget chemical laws and theories beget biological laws and theorys beget psychological laws and theories beget sociological laws and theories. Sure there is some (read: alot) gray area, but it isn't because of the supernatural; we just can't comprehend the details of everything.

The human curiosity has dovetailed well with human imagination (which, interestingly enough, was probably evolved because it helps us intuit the future- for instance, we imagine beasts under our bed because at one time there potentially were beasts under our bed). This combination led to what was essentially the ancestor of what modern man considers to be god- something lurking in the shadows, beyond our reach, that has the power to do us great harm. Eventually this took on both benevolent and malevolent characteristics, was rationalized to resemble mankind as humans got smarter, and was used to explain mysteries as we began to ask questions.

It is still used for that very reason today. No one believes in God because God is good. People believe in God because it is an answer for the questions that we can't understand.

BTW: There is no room for disagreement. If you believe, you're wrong.

[GUTS]

i believe that you are reborn. Once you die your soul is able to reflects objectively on your life, like god would. according to your principals and beliefs, and how you acted relative to those beliefs is where your soul spends the rest of it's time.

in other words, your soul judges your life on earth relative to how you wanted to be. if you were how you wanted you could equate this to "heaven" if you did things that you regret or are no proud of you could equate this to "hell" Either way, you are where you wanted to be. if you act a certain way when you live and you feel like a bad person, you boviously prefer being a bad person to being a good person. there fore, hell would suit you more then heaven would. you end up where you belonged in life.

i also believe that death is not the end. after you are judged by yourself you are reborn into a situation that suits where you judged yourself into. If you were a good person, you may be reborn a wealthy, happy, or whatever you find suitable for a good life. If you felt you led a bad life, you maybe reborn as someone you don't find appealing or maybe even an animal that is low on the food chain.

but really, who knows?

[thunderzstruck]

Of course, everyone has a right to argue their opinion, but generally, i think so. I believe that we must've been created for some reason...
why do you think that we must have been created for a reason? There's absolutely no evidence stating we have a reason at all, so why should we come up with crazy conclusions thinking we do

especially since every part of the world claims they have the right "reason" we're here and everyone else is wrong

[mattspurplepen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82EV4KBIsNk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L5imdeF8Ek

couple of existential vids, sort of interesting.
I think an afterlife would be nice, though the concept sounds a bit strange to me. All you should know is that no one can definitively say what happens next, and you can/should believe in something if it helps you as a person better appreciate your life.

[okay]

i would consider myself an ardent agnostic

[thunderzstruck]

No, we shouldn't be believing made up concepts just because it "feels good"

and there is absolutely no evidence suggesting we have an afterlife. So why should we believe it. There's people that still think the earth is flat, and we call them idiots. Well I don't know for 100% fact that the earth is flat (I've never seen it from space) but the evidence mountingly suggests it isnt

[mattspurplepen]

haha i was just trying to be respectful towards this kid though, and by believing something to make you feel good that doesnt just correspond to religion.
i believe we just turn into nothing and death is the end. It doesn't mean i feel despair but rather appreciation for elements of this world I witness. And pretty much religion can be ruled out by anyone who thinks critically. Major religions were invented because we needed some purpose to feel important and provide false hope, it also helped establish tons of power and influence for early rulers.

[okay]

No, we shouldn't be believing made up concepts just because it "feels good"

and there is absolutely no evidence suggesting we have an afterlife. So why should we believe it. There's people that still think the earth is flat, and we call them idiots. Well I don't know for 100% fact that the earth is flat (I've never seen it from space) but the evidence mountingly suggests it isnt

I would rather say, there is no way to scientifically prove the existence of an afterlife, because you can neither prove its existence via scientific method or disprove its existence via scientific method, so ardently adhering yourself to a stance of no-afterlife on the basis of science is just as absurd as any other sort of religious belief, not to mention demonstrating a key ignorance of scientific method.

[Lufnoops]

god is more than love can ever be

[thunderzstruck]

I would rather say, there is no way to scientifically prove the existence of an afterlife, because you can neither prove its existence via scientific method or disprove its existence via scientific method, so ardently adhering yourself to a stance of no-afterlife on the basis of science is just as absurd as any other sort of religious belief, not to mention demonstrating a key ignorance of scientific method.
There is no way to scientifically disprove the earth is destroyed every six minutes then created the exact same way with all previous thoughts and everything in less than a planck time. But it doesn't mean one should believe it

And I don't know how I'm demonstrating ignorance of the scientific method. Show me actual evidence (not religion, bible or anything) that there is an afterlife. Something scientists have ground evidence suggesting a higher power or anything.

The mainstream thought is moving away from the thoughts of religion because of recent scientific data and it's not my problem people can't see past their religion because of outdated thinking

[thunderzstruck]

haha i was just trying to be respectful towards this kid though, and by believing something to make you feel good that doesnt just correspond to religion.
i believe we just turn into nothing and death is the end. It doesn't mean i feel despair but rather appreciation for elements of this world I witness. And pretty much religion can be ruled out by anyone who thinks critically. Major religions were invented because we needed some purpose to feel important and provide false hope, it also helped establish tons of power and influence for early rulers.
Ok, but thats not what you said here
All you should know is that no one can definitively say what happens next, and you can/should believe in something if it helps you as a person better appreciate your life.

I agree with you in the first post I quoted.

[okay]

There is no way to scientifically disprove the earth is destroyed every six minutes then created the exact same way with all previous thoughts and everything in less than a planck time. But it doesn't mean one should believe it

And I don't know how I'm demonstrating ignorance of the scientific method. Show me actual evidence (not religion, bible or anything) that there is an afterlife. Something scientists have ground evidence suggesting a higher power or anything.

The mainstream thought is moving away from the thoughts of religion because of recent scientific data and it's not my problem people can't see past their religion because of outdated thinking

Well, that post was addressed solely to you, I just wanted to address that topic because I see a lot of atheists making that fallacy.
I'm thinking you didn't really read my post, because you're bringing a lot of things out of it that weren't put there.
For the evidence thing, thats exactly what I was saying: there is no way to scientifically and logically know either way.

[thunderzstruck]

I still don't understand though. To make a claim, you must have data supporting your claim. Which I haven't seen (and you chose to ignore my part of the post asking for some)

You can't make a claim of a higherpower of afterlife without evidence. And without such evidence, you can throw out the possibility until something actually starts to suggest such a thing.

Many scientists are skeptical about string theory because we don't have the technology to test such theories and the theories live in math formulas. Well, I don't even see at least formulas for afterlife so why should I even suggest that it's real

[mattspurplepen]

true i was trying to cover the second point, but you have to face the facts that some peoples' lives really suck or they are just a bit ignorant. In those cases religion might be useful because it provides a hope, which they can't find anywhere else..
As much as all religion and faith can piss me off and sound completely irrational, there is an aspect of respect for their hope. Thats just me trying to sound more tolerant towards theists than i sometimes really am.

[okay]

I still don't understand though. To make a claim, you must have data supporting your claim. Which I haven't seen (and you chose to ignore my part of the post asking for some)

You can't make a claim of a higherpower of afterlife without evidence. And without such evidence, you can throw out the possibility until something actually starts to suggest such a thing.

Many scientists are skeptical about string theory because we don't have the technology to test such theories and the theories live in math formulas. Well, I don't even see at least formulas for afterlife so why should I even suggest that it's real
But you're missing what I'm saying: there is no scientific data that suggests definitively the existence of an afterlife, etc., but for a theory to be legitimate, you have to be able to disprove it as well; having no evidence is no queue to discard a possibility, that's exactly the point of scientific method, you have to have substantial evidence against said possibility before you can even discard it.

Also, don't try to bring string theory into this, we don't want to go down that road, considering the complexity of quantum gravity theories, and our shared lack of essential knowledge of basic physics concepts that are integral in the theory to make any valid argument as to its validity.

[thunderzstruck]

I agree with you there. I'm not denying the good it can do in someones life. And I am tolerant and understand their beliefs but I just wish people were questioned more on their beliefs instead of "whoa! thats the belief man, why are you attacking them?!"

EDIT: to mattsplurpinthinger

[Reaganista]

I'm not sure what the reason would be, but I would guess that if we're creations, then god/the gods work in ways that are beyond us.

So yeah. I bet that it sounds sorta stupid in the eyes of an atheist, but i guess that the reason(s) is/are known only by god
no that sounds stupid in the eyes of anyone

lol sounds in the eyes

[thunderzstruck]

But you're missing what I'm saying: there is no scientific data that suggests definitively the existence of an afterlife, etc., but for a theory to be legitimate, you have to be able to disprove it as well; having no evidence is no queue to discard a possibility, that's exactly the point of scientific method, you have to have substantial evidence against said possibility before you can even discard it.

Also, don't try to bring string theory into this, we don't want to go down that road, considering the complexity of quantum gravity theories, and our shared lack of essential knowledge of basic physics concepts that are integral in the theory to make any valid argument as to its validity.
No. We came into this world without any sort of notion of a god. So it was us who made the claim that there is one. So you make the claim of a god, its your burden to back up claims to say there is one. Not mine, I'm busy coming up with another hypothesis (big bang, evolution etc) And oh, those are doing quite well.

Wikipedia says it well:

In philosophy, the term burden of proof refers to the extent to which, or the level of rigour with which, it is necessary to establish, demonstrate or prove something for it to be accepted as true or reasonable to believe.

[okay]

We're talking about scientifically legitimate theories and ideas, not just 'proof'. Also its a pretty good measure for the level of misunderstanding we're having here when you think I'm advocating belief in an afterlife as legitimate.

[thunderzstruck]

heh ill just agree to end it i guess cause im ****ing confused now

[nungman]

Say what you want, but to me, atheism makes no ****ing sense, that we were created from absolutely nothing whatsoever for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

wow

really

like do you really believe that's what atheists think happened


i mean you got the no reason part right and there is no need for a reason for existence

but seriously. created from nothing? sigh.

not to mention there's actually no real credible reason to believe in god aside from that fact that it makes you feel better, but just because something makes me feel better doesn't mean it's true

[okay]

But you have no credible backing to say that there is no god other than 'well i dont believe there is a god'

[mph4ever]

just leave the burden of proof with the god worshippers,

we won't be hearing anything back from them

[Reductio]

But you have no credible backing to say that there is no god other than 'well i dont believe there is a god'

That's not really true at all. There are plenty of credible reasons to doubt or deny the existence of God.

[Squirrel]

advancements in science have removed the belief of many gods

like when we realised thunder and lightning werent Thor throwing a hammer around

or what the sun really was; not a chariot travelling across the sky every day

[ThePalaceOfWisdom]

I like the Stargate theory, we're put here by an advanced alien race to see if we were worthy of ascending to a higher plane of existence. Atheism would be fine if it weren't for people like Richard Dawkins. Also I agree that the concept of God isn't too much of a stretch.

[Babble]

Well guys, show me a single effect that God has on the natural world or has ever had on the natural world.

I'm not talking about guesses. I'm talking about something that we can't explain and something that we don't expect to be able to explain. I mean, if it happened, there should be some evidence, right? If God ever had any effect on the universe, somewhere, somehow, there should be some sort of mark where things didn't go as physics would predict.

Otherwise, you're making meaningless statements. If you can't show an idea of God to be falsifiable, it's meaningless. Not true or untrue, just simply meaningless. God MUST have an effect on the natural world to be God.

[Reductio]

With respect to your last statement, I think it depends on your interpretation or definition of "God". From a deist's perspective, God needn't have an effect on the natural world (other than having created it in the first place); from a pantheist's perspective, God IS the natural world.

The Abrahamic God must have an effect on the natural world to be the Abrahamic God, but you're correct in that nobody can prove the existence of any of those effects. I don't know if that makes the idea of that God meaningless; it just means you have to have faith in it without empirical support.

[funluvinhobo]

Well guys, show me a single effect that God has on the natural world or has ever had on the natural world.

I'm not talking about guesses. I'm talking about something that we can't explain and something that we don't expect to be able to explain. I mean, if it happened, there should be some evidence, right? If God ever had any effect on the universe, somewhere, somehow, there should be some sort of mark where things didn't go as physics would predict.

Otherwise, you're making meaningless statements. If you can't show an idea of God to be falsifiable, it's meaningless. Not true or untrue, just simply meaningless. God MUST have an effect on the natural world to be God.

um i saw a show about kids that can speak to and have seen ghosts, if thats not proof then what is :rolleyes:

[Babble]

With respect to your last statement, I think it depends on your interpretation or definition of "God". From a deist's perspective, God needn't have an effect on the natural world (other than having created it in the first place); from a pantheist's perspective, God IS the natural world.

having created the natural world would be the very effect in question. However, I see no reason to insert religious answers there when they don't seem to fit anywhere else.


The Abrahamic God must have an effect on the natural world to be the Abrahamic God, but you're correct in that nobody can prove the existence of any of those effects. I don't know if that makes the idea of that God meaningless; it just means you have to have faith in it without empirical support.

No, it does make it meaningless... It implies that we should see natural effects with no natural cause. If there is no natural effect, why on earth would we create supernatural causes?

PS: Ghosts are BS. The human brain can be easily fooled into believing a thing that does not correspond to reality, however honest the attempt is.

[Mr. Ron]

So, what's your personal view on this sort of thing?

I know that as a really young kid here, i was adamant about my christianity; now, i'll say that i'm a christian, "or at least an agnostic"; meaning i believe that there must at least be a god/god(s). Say what you want, but to me, atheism makes no ****ing sense, that we were created from absolutely nothing whatsoever for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

So... i suppose that if i believe in a god, then i believe in an afterlife, cuz god wouldn't just create beings to live for an extraordinarily short amount of time and boom-boom, the end.

That being said...

I'm not totally sure about what i believe, but i'm skeptical to the point of nearly-absolute-doubt about the traditional heaven/hell setup. First off, the traditional concept of hell is absurd. That a loving god could put something that he created and loved into horrendous pain for eternity is just. Sorta. ****ing. Dumb. Secondly, on the other hand, absolute eternal happiness is pointless. Existence would be pointless without conflict. How could it be not? [then again, would pointlessness really be a factor to god/the gods?]

I dunno, do you get a personal heaven? If not, is heaven like a ****ing giant hotel or something? I dunno. Well, go for it everyone, i guess.
everything you say from here on out will not be regarded with any seriousness.

I'm not going to pretend I KNOW there is no supernatural force, but from what I know and what I have learned through out my life, there is extremely little to no evidence for anything supernatural, let alone a "god". Do I know how the big bang got started? Nope, but I'm sure we'll figure that out in time. You're falling back on the "god of the gaps" argument, where you throw god into any of the things we're not sure of yet. Its a logical fallacy.

btw you're an atheist. You reject numerous gods.

[Sk0rpi0n]

My opinion is that the concept of an afterlife is childish nonsense. Its the greatest myth people have ever believed, even beating my other favorite myths, such as Santa Clause, the resurrection of Jebus and the female orgasm.
I can understand people desperately hoping that they'll somehow live forever, but the lack of logic in the belief blows my mind.

Never the less, theirs nothing wrong with living with this belief: It never hurts to try and scare yourself into being a moral person.

[okay]

The only way to know if there is or isn't an afterlife is to die and see, and once your dead you can't come back and tell everyone what happens, so being so sure that there isn't an afterlife is just as ridiculous as saying there is one, because you can never know until you're actually dead.

[Reductio]

having created the natural world would be the very effect in question.

Granted, but the point I was making still stands.

However, I see no reason to insert religious answers there when they don't seem to fit anywhere else.

There are plenty of reasons. I don't think it's necessary to account for things with religious answers either, but there are definitely reasons for doing so, otherwise nobody would do that.

No, it does make it meaningless... It implies that we should see natural effects with no natural cause. If there is no natural effect, why on earth would we create supernatural causes?

Religion obviously isn't meaningless; it has a meaning! The QUESTION of God, or the afterlife, or the supernatural, may be an inherently meaningless one to some (that's a philosophical issue in my opinion), but the things in themselves aren't meaningless, unless everything is meaningless.

I agree with your latter statement. The introduction of God to explain the creation of the universe (or anything, for that matter) is anti-scientific by its very nature.

Please note: I am only taking issue with you on a pedantic and superficial level. I agree with you fundamentally. I'm (also) an atheist.

[Dinosawesome]

Just an interesting idea...

Why do we make babies? For the continuation of our species, right?

What if there is some sort of all-powerful being 'God' and we are simply his creation to mature and once we die we continue to progress until we become Gods and continue THAT species?

Perhaps God isn't an all powerful being but a highly advanced one who has put us into this state- couldn't that be similar to scientists in a few hundred years being able to insert their own species into a different world?

Embriotic cells can't comprehend fish swimming around them, fish can't comprehend a world outside of water. What makes us think we're any different? Because we are sentient beings? What if sentience isn't as advanced as it's all cracked up to be? I mean, sure, we're self aware now- but have you ever considered the possibility of higher brain functions that would allow us to create an 'Earthlike Mortal Experience' for our children to test them before they are fit to produce offspring?

It sounds more science-fictiony that religoius, and I don't necessarily believe it, but it certainly is food for thought.

[RG560M]

I don't believe in an afterlife. I can do more things without a guilty or fearful conscience :)

[Reductio]

Just an interesting idea...

Why do we make babies? For the continuation of our species, right?

What if there is some sort of all-powerful being 'God' and we are simply his creation to mature and once we die we continue to progress until we become Gods and continue THAT species?

Perhaps God isn't an all powerful being but a highly advanced one who has put us into this state- couldn't that be similar to scientists in a few hundred years being able to insert their own species into a different world?

Embriotic cells can't comprehend fish swimming around them, fish can't comprehend a world outside of water. What makes us think we're any different? Because we are sentient beings? What if sentience isn't as advanced as it's all cracked up to be? I mean, sure, we're self aware now- but have you ever considered the possibility of higher brain functions that would allow us to create an 'Earthlike Mortal Experience' for our children to test them before they are fit to produce offspring?

It sounds more science-fictiony that religoius, and I don't necessarily believe it, but it certainly is food for thought.

I get what you're saying here. It is an interesting idea, but I think this kind of thing actually makes our existence even more complex than it's already been made by religion. Sure, you could play with this idea of multiple planes of existence and different, higher-functioning species that exist in some unknown dimenson after death, or whatever, but I just think that tends to multiply the issues beyond necessity and introduces a whole bunch of new phenomena that we then have to explain and account for.

You're essentially posing a big "What if?" question. I think the answer is, "Sure, maybe, but there are much simpler and more elegant explanations."

[Dinosawesome]

Idk I personally find the concept of a higher plane less confusing than the idea of an all powerful, omnipotent being who knows all and can do all and yet still requires us to be nice to each other and not have sex before marriage.

[Babble]

I rescind almost everything I posted in this thread.

However, there is no afterlife in the common sense of the word.

[Reductio]

Idk I personally find the concept of a higher plane less confusing than the idea of an all powerful, omnipotent being who knows all and can do all and yet still requires us to be nice to each other and not have sex before marriage.

But they're just personality traits. :p

With regard to our existence, the basic idea with Abrahamic religions is that God created the universe (for this or that reason) and we go to paradise or hell or something like that after death (for this or that reason). Everything else is a detail. At least ostensibly I think it's a simpler explanation.

Don't get me wrong: I think your idea is nice and I don't mean to discredit it (well, no more than I would any religion).