Christian university in Oregon(4 students hanging an obama doll from a tree)

[mattspurplepen]

NEWBERG, Ore. (AP) — A Christian university in Oregon said Tuesday it has punished four students who confessed to hanging a likeness of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama from a tree on campus.
George Fox University broke the news to students and staff Tuesday afternoon at an all-campus meeting. About 1,000 people attended, said Rob Felton, a university spokesman.

INCIDENT: Obama effigy hung on Ore. campus
A statement from the school said the penalties against the four students were "immediate long-term suspension and public service." The school cited federal privacy rules in not disclosing more about the students or their punishment.

The FBI is investigating whether any civil rights were violated.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-30-effigy-punishment_N.htm

Should this be a big deal? We as a society have a fair amount of racial sensitivity and it has played a significant role in the election. In my eyes the hanging body displays immense hatred and racism.
I was a bit surprised to hear about such events in a state like Oregon. Reading about events like these involving "christians" makes me question whether christianity really promotes a positive message. I mean of course the purpose is to give people hope, but there is an element of fear and hypocrisy that shines through a lot.

So basically this article got me thinking about our society's feelings towards racism and the role of religion in our lives.
Its not so much about Barack Obama, but rather a view on the seriousness of racial discrimination.

[mattspurplepen]

mm yeah i guess i just don't understand the blind hatred some people have. Parents usually pass their views on to their children, but in modern america 2008, I thought we were a bit less focused on race.

[Apollyon]

race will always be an issue because there will always be people who have nothing better to elevate themselves with than the color of their skin

[Smokey D]

It's obviously appalling but I'm pretty sure even hanging/burning an effigy of a political figure is protected by the 1st Amendment.

[mattspurplepen]

yeah that is true. Though it doesn't really seem like he was being represented as a political figure, it more strongly was referring to his skin color. At least that's what it sounds like to me. Man even if i thought mcCain was the **** and i was all about republicans i would not support a general image of racism.
A lot of the accusations from the repub. party about sexism are clearly fueled by ulterior motives. This distinct issue of the hanging figure appears as racial hatred. Even as a prank this image holds significance.

[The Stig]

It's obviously appalling but I'm pretty sure even hanging/burning an effigy of a political figure is protected by the 1st Amendment.

Agreed 100%.

yeah that is true. Though it doesn't really seem like he was being represented as a political figure, it more strongly was referring to his skin color. At least that's what it sounds like to me. Man even if i thought mcCain was the **** and i was all about republicans i would not support a general image of racism.
A lot of the accusations from the repub. party about sexism are clearly fueled by ulterior motives. This distinct issue of the hanging figure appears as racial hatred. Even as a prank this image holds significance.

Should the students be punished based on their thoughts behind the action or the action itself? The former teeters on the verge of being thought crime. The action itself should be covered under free speech as long as nobody was harmed and no property not owned by the students damaged.

[Apollyon]

It's obviously appalling but I'm pretty sure even hanging/burning an effigy of a political figure is protected by the 1st Amendment.

civil rights offer protection from discrimination based on race, gender, etc..

if it was a faceless effigy of a black american it would be covered by freedom of speech, but the fact that they depicted this doll specifically as senator obama makes it a civil rights issue

[Smokey D]

From what I understand, the right to free speech when dealing with a political figure is pretty near unqualified in the US.

if it was a faceless effigy of a black american it would be covered by freedom of speech, but the fact that they depicted this doll specifically as senator obama makes it a civil rights issue

I would have thought it the other way around.

[Apollyon]

a faceless representation of a black american being hung from a tree is an expression of racial hatred but still an act of protest, no matter how primitive it may be

designating a high-profile individual as the target of that hatred creates an air of danger for that individual and that's where a civil rights case begins

[Shell]

i would think of it as a threat rather than an expression of free speech.

Also in response to the first post, I don't think it has anything to do with what Christianity teaches, but rather that these individuals do not follow Christian beliefs.

[Smokey D]

a faceless representation of a black american being hung from a tree is an expression of racial hatred but still an act of protest, no matter how primitive it may be

Thinking of the Skokie cases, it seems to me that would be allowed.


designating a high-profile individual as the target of that hatred creates an air of danger for that individual and that's where a civil rights case begins

That's not so much a civil rights issue as a threat. Generally a threat is only a crime when it can be construed as an assault. So can mere threats be criminal offences? I'm not sure. My feeling is no, especially when it is reasonably hard to prove it is a threat.

[Apollyon]

when the target of that threat is a presidential candidate, yes it can be a crime

you can end up in guantanamo bay for a decade if you threaten the president's life and the law isn't much more lenient when it comes to candidates for the oval office

[mattspurplepen]

yeah I agree. What i was trying to get at more was a trend of hypocrisy in certain religions that promote moral values of treating your neighbors with respect< etc., but fail to do so because of intolerance. The same case can be made about anyone really, I was just making the association with religion because they often condemn others who disagree with their exact beliefs. When i approach (certain) religious persons I see this desperate mindset a lot.

[Smokey D]

when the target of that threat is a presidential candidate, yes it can be a crime


It seems to me that it would have to be founded on a specific threat, which is absent here.

[Apollyon]

it looks enough like a death threat for the government to call it a death threat and that's all that matters

[Smokey D]

Well yeah, the government might rendition them out of the country but I think it would struggle if it ever reached a court.

[Aaron]

I don't understand how this is instantly a racist issue without hearing the kids' points of view. They could just dislike his positions on economic issues...

[Smokey D]

The fact that they're hanging an effigy of a black man is racist.

[Shell]

Yeah when's the last time a white dude was lynched?

[Apollyon]

Well yeah, the government might rendition them out of the country but I think it would struggle if it ever reached a court.

that's the great thing about guantanamo bay - no one that goes there ever sees a courtroom

[McP3000]

The fact that they're hanging an effigy of a black man is racist.

Yeah when's the last time a white dude was lynched?
this is preposterously racist in itself, you do realize this?

I mean what if it were 4 black kids hanging the effigy? I dont condone the thought of punishing racism on a government/state level because all it does is demote free speech and creates fear mongering.

I think the school should be able to punish them however they see fit, but the government should have no ability to punish them.

[Smokey D]

No it's not. To ignore the innuendo of hanging a black effigy from a tree is ludicrous.

[mattspurplepen]

... i can see your arguments about the school being responsible and not the gov.
but this part makes no sense : "this is preposterously racist in itself, you do realize this?

I mean what if it were 4 black kids hanging the effigy?"

- okay lets hypothetically say 4 black kids did this, they are still promoting images of racism and inspiring hate. It doesn't matter who does it, anyone dumb enough to use a symbol of the pain and suffering of a group of people is still wrong.
Seriously if this story was about some white dudes in san francisco hanging a black figure from a tree because they hated condoleeza rice or something that would hold the same overall racial significance.

[Jude]

College is named after George Fox?

You'd expect them to be supporting Obama.

[Mr. Ron]

The fact that they're hanging an effigy of a black man is racist.

I disagree. They could simply just really, really dislike Obama. I'm pretty sure plenty of whites were hung through out history.

[Charlie Daniels]

I disagree. They could simply just really, really dislike Obama. I'm pretty sure plenty of whites were hung through out history.

Yeah, hanging is a common method of execution. Maybe it's because it's from a tree and that's how I hear blacks got hung a lot? I dunno.

[Light Fantastic]

No it's not. To ignore the innuendo of hanging a black effigy from a tree is ludicrous.

but you cant just assume their intentions were so merely because theres a racist meme of hanging black people

thats retarded

[Hedgedive]

was the doll hanged from the neck IT TOTALLY MATTERS

[McP3000]

No it's not. To ignore the innuendo of hanging a black effigy from a tree is ludicrous.
im disappointed in you :[

[AyatollahKhomeini]

I was a bit surprised to hear about such events in a state like Oregon. Reading about events like these involving "christians" makes me question whether christianity really promotes a positive message.

me too man

i mean the crusades and centuries of church doctrine were one thing
but this one isolated incident is just too much proof

[mattspurplepen]

haha fair enough, that part of my post wasn't really relevant to this discussion. I just have strong feelings about that and because this happened to be a christian school i was interested in that aspect.
Basically I accept the opposing points about this figure possibly not being significant if they had different intentions. It is true that we have freedom of speech, but sometimes people go too far. If african americans witnessed this incident and felt threatened it could be seen as a serious offense, however, we aren't provided with that much info.
I can respect the 1st amendment but if you don't think there is something seriously wrong with using a symbol of hate and prejudice towards black people, then i can't really relate.
It all depends on how sensitive we should be towards racism and who decides. I would assume the hanging was from the neck. Though it might've just looked like a stupid pinata and that could be seen as just an innocent crack against obama.
Either way i think we can all agree its just a stupid idea. If these kids just disliked obama's platform or what he believes, then they could have done any number of things, maybe signs or hold a discussion.

[Reductio]

I disagree. They could simply just really, really dislike Obama. I'm pretty sure plenty of whites were hung through out history.

Yes obviously but not from trees. It's an inherently racist symbol.

but you cant just assume their intentions were so merely because theres a racist meme of hanging black people

thats retarded

If there was no racist intent, then it was a fairly happy coincidence I think.

[hismajestythepope]

thats incredible

i cannot believe there are people like this in the world :lol:

[Already_Taken]

american law says this is allowed. american law can be twisted into allowing many detestable things, but this is just obscene.

[thedriveinfan]

legally acceptable, morally disgusting

[Reaganista]

but you cant just assume their intentions were so merely because theres a racist meme of hanging black people

thats retarded

of course you can

[masada]

bawwww obscenity bawwwwww

[Mr. Ron]

Yes obviously but not from trees. It's an inherently racist symbol.




Um the vikings will have a word with you. They hung whites by the hundreds from trees.

[Iscariot]

that's nice but hanging an effigy of a black man from a tree is an obvious reference to racial intolerance it doesn't matter how liberal you are in your thought process you'd have to be outright stupid not to recognize that

[GreyHam]

but the lynching of blacks from trees is something that happened to varying degrees within the last 100 years - some people alive still remember it

anyway, hanging/burning/defiling an effigy of a political figure in protest is not the end of the world - im sure many an effigy of thatcher had its existence ended prematurely. what beggers belief is the idea that someone could think that hanging an effigy of a black figure, political or otherwise, would give any other message than KKKY2K8

[Mr. Ron]

it more likely does have a racist theme to it, I'm just saying that not in all situations like this does race have to be a factor.

[Det_Nosnip]

conservative white folks lynching black men is SO passe.

[Aaron]

Yes obviously but not from trees. It's an inherently racist symbol.
Or a reference to Judas' death in the bible.
Or a reference to a Queens of the Stone Age song.
Or a comment on their stance on corporal punishment.
Or a comment on their stance of environmental issues. [THAT POOR TREE!!1!]
Or a comment on sexism in politics.

Just because the doll was black, doesn't mean it's a racist comment. The doll was also a man, and was hanging from a tree. It could mean a plethora of things.

[FallingSnow]

Let me first establish that I don't really agree with or see the necessity of such an extreme action/message, and I personally think it's a little over the top and ridiculous.

However, having said that, these people felt that this was the way they needed to relay their message; and in this country, this society, this day and age, they should be and are allowed to do so. I do not support the disciplinary action taken (due to their right to express their opinion in whatever form), nor do I support the public hype about the situation (it simply feeds their original purpose and makes the situation worse).

[masada]

Or a comment on their stance of environmental issues. [THAT POOR TREE!!1!] ya imagine how the tree feels having some stuffed negro hanging from it

[Mr. Ron]

"Ugh, my branches hurt bro get off"

[masada]

"now i smell like menthol"

[mattspurplepen]

haha.

yeah man whatever i'll admit to being a sensitive bitch about situations like these. For me the main reason i would encourage some form of punishment is if anyone around campus felt threatened. The accused kids punishment sounded pretty fitting, maybe they'll consider keeping racist ideas to themselves. If we never did anything to stop racial discrimination it would wind up hurting way more people than if we give any idiots the right to promote hate and trigger memories of inequality and violence.
Freedom of speech is incredibly important but in select instances involving racial hatred it should be regulated.

[Reaganista]

Or a reference to Judas' death in the bible.
Or a reference to a Queens of the Stone Age song.
Or a comment on their stance on corporal punishment.
Or a comment on their stance of environmental issues. [THAT POOR TREE!!1!]
Or a comment on sexism in politics.

Just because the doll was black, doesn't mean it's a racist comment. The doll was also a man, and was hanging from a tree. It could mean a plethora of things.

no we know what it means all that other stuff is wrong and obviously stupid

[FallingSnow]

Racial hatred in this case is only an expression of opinion though. It's not like they actually hung a black man or committed a tangible, harmful crime.

@mattspurplepen

[mattspurplepen]

true, i'm just saying we should have that option- i think i was defending the prosecution hate crimes in general. I remember someone claiming we should be rid of them.
This case was just shocking and disgraceful, i don't think they deserve jail time or huge fines. They do however need to be taught some lesson about equality.

[Aaron]

Ban pinatas!!!

[mattspurplepen]

haha **** it man! i just don't like or understand racist people. I believe the punishment is fair according to the low severity of the incident.
In more general terms it just sucks when you see more serious **** of the same nature happening.

[Aaron]

That's life. People learn patience from it being tested. I get abused at work everyday, but I don't hate the person cause I've learnt to realise that people are offensive due to something else that's hidden under the surface. Racism only works if you let it affect you.

[Reaganista]

that makes no sense

[Reductio]

Or a reference to Judas' death in the bible.
Or a reference to a Queens of the Stone Age song.
Or a comment on their stance on corporal punishment.
Or a comment on their stance of environmental issues. [THAT POOR TREE!!1!]
Or a comment on sexism in politics.

Just because the doll was black, doesn't mean it's a racist comment. The doll was also a man, and was hanging from a tree. It could mean a plethora of things.

No that's dumb.

[Iscariot]

No that's dumb.

this

it's painfully obvious what an effigy of a black man being lynched from a tree branch is representative of

only pseudo-open minded morons think it could have an alternative motive

[Amit]

hey this kind of reminds me of this

http://www.jhu.edu/news/univ06/nov06/sanctions.html

i have a couple friends in that fraternity and it was just lolarious for me

[Smokey D]

I disagree. They could simply just really, really dislike Obama. I'm pretty sure plenty of whites were hung through out history.

Maybe. But I doubt they're ignorant of, as LF put it, the meme of hanging a black man from a tree. At the very least, there is a very strong presumption in favour of racist intent.

but you cant just assume their intentions were so merely because theres a racist meme of hanging black people

thats retarded

I disagree. You can assume plenty about the intent of a person from their actions.

im disappointed in you :

You're saying there is no innuendo?


Just because the doll was black, doesn't mean it's a racist comment. The doll was also a man, and was hanging from a tree. It could mean a plethora of things.

It could, but it probably doesn't.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that just because it's racist it shouldn't be protected under the First Amendment.

[Reaganista]

the first amendment doesnt apply tho why do ppl keep bringing it up

[Smokey D]

Why does it not apply? It's political speech.

[Iscariot]

the fourteenth amendment applies limitations to the first amendment by state

[Aaron]

this

it's painfully obvious what an effigy of a black man being lynched from a tree branch is representative of

only pseudo-open minded morons think it could have an alternative motive
Does your Bachelor of Internetity qualify you to read minds?
Without hearing their point of view you can't know their personal motivations.

[Smokey D]

Reasonable inference.

People might have all sorts of reasons for burning crosses on hill tops and dressing up in white robes with hoods, but if you do that in Misissippi it's pretty clear what people are going to think.

[Aaron]

People make too many assumptions though, it's one of the problems with the modern media. Without being objective in investigation, things get misconstrued.

That same image of hooded people burning crosses in Missisippi; it's clear what people are going to think, but it's not clear that the motivation is racist. It could easily be a group of black males trying to draw attention to what has happened in history, or it could be people with an anti-religion message. Perception is a powerful thing, true, but the strongest or most common percieved thought isn't always the correct one.

[Smokey D]

I can't assume with 100% certainty the motivations of anyone but it's extremely naieve to say we can't assume racist motivations in cases like these. Unless I have a reason to believe it's not a racist symbol, I see no problem with relying on the presumption created by the imagery that they had racist intentions.

[Aaron]

That I can understand, but I think that you've got to be open minded and read past the headlines.

[Reductio]

I think Occam's razor applies in this situation. You can come up with all sorts of outlandish theories about the students' motivations, but the simplest one is probably correct. It's kind of like why inverting a crucifix is generally taken to be an expression of anti-Christianity, even though it's also, loosely speaking, a symbol of St. Peter.

Yeah it's possible that they just really disliked Obama but, as I mentioned, given the very well-known connotations of a black person hanging from a tree, I think it would be pretty ... coincidental if there was no racist intent!

[McP3000]

i still dont see how it should be illegal to be racist, or any type of -ist for that matter, and express your ideas fittingly as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights or well being of others, no matter what mainstream public sentiment towards it is.

[Aaron]

i still dont see how it should be illegal to be racist, or any type of -ist for that matter, and express your ideas fittingly as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights or well being of others, no matter what mainstream public sentiment towards it is.
I'd agree with this statement, but only because you worded it so well.
AAAA+ Post. Will read again.

[Dimmu Burger]

They should've known better, unless they're like 10 year olds or something, in that case they are just messed up.

i still dont see how it should be illegal to be racist, or any type of -ist for that matter, and express your ideas fittingly as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights or well being of others, no matter what mainstream public sentiment towards it is.

I agree, though I don't particularly want people to hang cardboard black people from trees, I don't think having those beliefs can be illegal at all.

[BridgeToSolace]

i still dont see how it should be illegal to be racist, or any type of -ist for that matter, and express your ideas fittingly as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights or well being of others, no matter what mainstream public sentiment towards it is.
An argument can be made that some sort of right was infringed, though.

I mean, I can't go pointing a gun around at people and then use the defense "I HAD NO INTENTION TO SHOOT, AND I DIDN'T ACTUALLY INFRINGE ON ANYONE'S RIGHTS. SO WE'RE COOL, RIGHT?"

This could easily be seen as a threat towards african americans.

And although I'd be fine with them not getting legal punishments, I WOULD like to see them expelled from their university.

[Raayl]

hahaha@thinking the constitution matters. this demonstration is supposed to be fully protected by that forgotten d0cument. of course it isn't - and does that really surprise anybody i mean seriously.

situations like these make me feel sick and at the same time they don't surprise me in the slightest - i mean, federal investigations and possible legal consequences? yeah sure the kids are probably idiots but this is just completely un-called for.

and i don't really care for the artifically inflated "racism" argument is it racist is it not, who cares if it is racist or if it isn't. that doesn't mean anything - it was, at most, a peaceful demonstration. An abstract release of frustration. whether that was racist or not it should be completely acceptable. nobody was hurt and i'd hardly consider these dumb kids criminals of any kind.

[Reaganista]

Why does it not apply? It's political speech.

the first amendment limits governments not colleges

[FallingSnow]

the first amendment limits governments not colleges

Federal law trumps private policies.

[Reaganista]

are you retarded or is that a joke

[FallingSnow]

Do you not like the truth?

[Det_Nosnip]

lol. I think he just answered your question, Reaganista.

(hint, hint: it wasn't a joke!! :eek:)

[Serenity]

It is my understanding that colleges and such are allowed to hold their own policies, but the law requires that they cannot deny or expel students due to such things as personal beliefs, race, religion, etc.; correct me if I'm wrong.


Regardless, the action was extreme, but they maintain the right to their expression and the beliefs behind it, whether political, racist, or both. The consequences were completely unnecessary.

[The Stig]

the fourteenth amendment applies limitations to the first amendment by state

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No one shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


No it doesn't. If anything it forces states to abide by the federal statutes including, but not limited to the First Amendment. Had the Fourteenth Amendment allowed states to set the limits to First Amendment like your statement implies, it would have essentially repealed the First Amendment. There are no references to limitations of free speech in the Fourteenth Amendment, to boot. All it does (in relation to the argument at hand) is establish citizenship and grant civil rights to those who previously had none. It doesn't limit anybody else's.

[beans]

**** like this from oregon doesnt suprise me
we're weird over here

[Smokey D]

the first amendment limits governments not colleges

Oh yeah. The college can do whatever it wants. I was referring to the FBI investigation.

[Reaganista]

Do you not like the truth?
show me where in the constitution it says private colleges are bound to obey it

Oh yeah. The college can do whatever it wants. I was referring to the FBI investigation.
well they can investigate someone for making a threat against a presidential candidate but i dont think it's gonna go anywere

[Serenity]

First post of the page. As I said, correct me if I'm wrong; I very well may be. I don't claim to be a know-all, haha.