Ok...maybe it IS time to panic..

[Det_Nosnip]

...Washington Mutual (my bank!) just collapsed. The government seized it via the Federal Banking Act (thanks, FDR!) and sold WAMU's assets to JPMorgan Chase, preventing a complete catastrophe and saving the FDIC's funds.

Dear lord...are we actually headed for a 2nd Great Depression?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926/ap_on_bi_ge/washington_mutual_future

[Dinosawesome]

Depression Version 1.1

[JohnXDoe]

i saw the news this morning

seems Wash has been in trouble for some time. would have been big news but given the circumstances all should be ok. JPMorgan basically bought the bank (and YOUR money lol) so all is "business as usual"

although they may close 10% of branches

this was sort of an "organized collapse." someone is there to pick up the pieces. and its not government. now if JPMorgan goes under you're on your own :)

but that bald guy on CNN said this should be the last of the big ones to sink

should be

[FallingSnow]

Most experts agree that its not very likely it will go that far. Several monumental measures were put into place after the first Great Depression to offset certain things in the event it could happen again. However, those same experts say it will get worse before it gets better, and the economy may not recover until 2010. From what I have seen, I am slightly concerned.

Just in time for Obama to be in office and take all the credit for what he alone did to "save" the economy during his term. LOL.

[Aaron]

^ lol. Care to link us to these experts and outline these "monumental measures"?

Depression Version 1.1
It's in beta-testing. Once the lower-class has tested the functionality, we should know whether we're fine to release it into production.

[Apollyon]

i saw this just about an hour ago on the news

frightening stuff

this is why i'm glad i went with us bank

[Joe]

It's the beta release of the depression.

It's not going to be as bad as the Depression was.

We need more of the huge investors who are still doing well to take charge. Like when Buffet gave $5 billion to the markets the other day...

Either way the bailout is really stupid. It's like going to Vegas and having the casino cover your losses.

[FallingSnow]

^ lol. Care to link us to these experts and outline these "monumental measures"?


Lol. Try something as simple as CNN, and do your Great Depression research.

(Not trying to be a dick, just being obvious)


Joe: What's the difference between the private sector donating a little bit of money to the cause and the government helping out a lot? I don't see how it could do any harm.

I think Glenn Beck put it best: "Our economy is like a 757 flying around with all four engines on fire. The bailout might not prevent a hard landing, but it could prevent us from simply dropping from the sky".

Beck is extremely well versed in economics, btw.

[Det_Nosnip]

Well, most of the "experts" have been wrong so far, so I wouldn't feel too secure.

[Joe]

I disagree. It's been "experts" taking risks and having the risks fail. There are people that know how to fix the economy it just takes time.

Glenn Beck is a very good economist. I just have completely different views on the rest of his politics - hence why I can't stand his show.

[Seafroggys]

I'm with ya Det, I got several thousand in Washington Mutual, and my parent's have mostly everything in there as well.

[DBoons Ghost]

WaMu holds my mortgage, and will continue to. I do all my corporate banking there for my business, and will continue to. My wife's savings and checking accounts are all at WaMu as well, and will continue to be.

WaMu has been going through this for some time, and JP Morgan were going to buy them anyway. FDIC's "seize" was pomp and show to ensure JP Morgan paid a fair price.

WaMu might become Chase bank in the coming years, but that's about it. This is a good thing.

[BassRevelation0]

Now i'm looking to see what Siva/Smokey have to say about our economy, which they claimed was not faltering.

[Mr. Ron]

This is pretty disturbing.

[McP3000]

isnt wachovia supposed to go under too?

[BridgeToSolace]

I think Glenn Beck put it best: "Our economy is like a 757 flying around with all four engines on fire. The bailout might not prevent a hard landing, but it could prevent us from simply dropping from the sky".

Beck is extremely well versed in economics, btw.

Glenn Beck's fairly clueless outspokenness on non-economic issues makes me doubt his economic prowess.

But I don't mind the bailout, so whatever.

[Against Miik!]

i saw the news this morning

seems Wash has been in trouble for some time. would have been big news but given the circumstances all should be ok. JPMorgan basically bought the bank (and YOUR money lol) so all is "business as usual"

although they may close 10% of branches

this was sort of an "organized collapse." someone is there to pick up the pieces. and its not government. now if JPMorgan goes under you're on your own :)

but that bald guy on CNN said this should be the last of the big ones to sink

should be

It would be pretty disastrous if JP Morgan went under, given this is now the second bank they've bought up.

And its my bank so I hope they don't

[Mr. Ron]

so yeah its going to take a lot more than, what was it, 700 billion?

[masada]

Glenn Beck's fairly clueless outspokenness on non-economic issues makes me doubt his economic prowess.

hahaha seriously

[Mr. Ron]

My father watches Glenn Beck religiously.

A black mark against his personality.

[BridgeToSolace]

Glenn Beck's or your father's?

[Against Miik!]

I find Glenn Beck entertain tbh.

And the bailout shouldn't cost 700 billion. If market prices were taken into consideration it would cost a lot less, according to Warren Buffett at least.

[Mr. Ron]

Glenn Beck's or your father's?

both

[Reaganista]

people need to stop freaking out about stuff that doesn't matter

[Smokey D]

Now i'm looking to see what Siva/Smokey have to say about our economy, which they claimed was not faltering.

I didn't claim that it wasn't faltering.

I claimed it wasn't going to fail.

Which it's not. No matter how far this goes, America is still going to be the richest country in the world when it ends.

[sLarkin20]

We're number one!

We're number one!

[masada]

My father watches Glenn Beck religiously.

A black mark against his personality.

my dad watches his show for about five minutes, gets annoyed and turns the channel

[Mr. Ron]

My father is 61, so I think the era he was brought up in makes him automatically like guys like him.

[masada]

mine is 50

im pretty sure glenn beck didnt used to yell and wave his hands around all the time my dad liked him them

[Mr. Ron]

Well he also likes Rush and Sean Hannity

as you might see having any sort of political discussion with him is altogether worthless.

I wuv him though ^_^

[masada]

im sorry

[Mr. Ron]

It ok.

I learned to selectivity listen to what he has to say.

[Reaganista]

my dad is a nazi commie

[masada]

nazumist

[Mr. Ron]

comazi

[masada]

the scent

[Mr. Ron]

fu....tofu. Hitler was a vegetarian, and vegetarians like tofu!

ga.....sort of close to "go" which can be used as "god", and the Nazis oppressed religious people

azi, the ending of nazi.


FUGAZI ARE RACISTS.

[P13]

my dad is a nazi commie
lol contradiction

[masada]

13 songs... GLORIFYING THE ARYAN RACE
repeater... OF MASS ETHNIC CLEANSING
steady diet of nothing... FOR ZIONISTS

[Reaganista]

he wants to round up and kill all the rich minorities

[Junooni]

http://i38.tinypic.com/2qwnf9j.jpg

[SnackaryBinx]

tbh, them voting no on the bailout will be better in the long run imo.

[RNR]

God damnit why can't you ****ing white ******s take care of your economy? Now Canada will suffer too.

[Reaganista]

why will canada suffer

[Iskandar]

Canada will only suffer if we somehow fail to kick the neocons out.

[Reaganista]

why will canada suffer if you somehow fail to kick the neocons out

[pppoe]

Neocons are a cancer.

[Joe]

And the bailout died. I think its good that it did.

I actually think SNL put it best - saying that they don't want government when they're doing well and that they do want government when they're not. Honestly if they just had an average of the two everything would be fine.

[mph4ever]

i guess bush isn't going to give a hand out to his mates on behalf of the tax payers before he leaves office afterall

[Reaganista]

hmm maybe now it's time to panic

[DBoons Ghost]

hmm maybe now it's time to panic

This.

Truly.

We're hosed people. Maybe it's time to execute our second amendment rights and march on D.C. fully armed.

Doomed.

[Reaganista]

well at least dboon is here to calm me down

[DBoons Ghost]

well at least dboon is here to calm me down

Yeah who's gonna calm me down?

I have never felt more disgusted as I do at this moment. I don't even care about the money. I care very much that those who caused this are still filthy ****ing rich and they could probably give two ****s about any of this.

[Cesar21]

I care very much that those who caused this are still filthy ****ing rich and they could probably give two ****s about any of this.

This

[Reaganista]

congress is all cowards for not sacrificing their political careers to vote this bail out through
after the fascist takeover everyone who voted against will be executed for treason

[DBoons Ghost]

congress is all coward for not sacrificing their political careers to vote this bail out through
after the fascist takeover everyone who voted against will be executed for treason

There are better ways then what they have planned.

The kicker is is that no one really did anything illegal. Can't even bankrupt the CEOs of these banks.

There really is no way out. We might as well start learning to speak Chinese from now.

[Reaganista]

we have nukes china cant take us over we'll just stop having democracy is all

[DBoons Ghost]

we have nukes china cant take us over we'll just stop having democracy is all

Where did you think they were borrowing this money from?

You didn't really think they could just print up 700 billion and buy back all the bad debt?

We as middle class citizens are being ruined for the sake of protecting millionaires.

I've had enough. Enough is ****ing enough.

[pppoe]

So we're borrowing money from China. Big deal. They send us the bill and we'll send them back a couple of nukes. Problem solved.

[Reaganista]

what does borrowing money from china have to do with speaking chinese it would take us less than 2 hours to turn every chinese into glass if they try to interfere with the national socialist states of america

[Cesar21]

Sure, why not? Is not like if every country in the world will turn against the US for nuking China for no reason other than not wanting to pay the debt to them.

[DBoons Ghost]

You guys suck. I lost so much money today and the systems barely held together handling the loads. I felt like Scotty on the Enterprise with Krik yelling for a totally unrealistic deisire for more power. If I had a Spock I'd have kicked him right into the reactor room and he can mind meld up the ***.

[Reaganista]

Sure, why not? Is not like if every country in the world will turn against the US for nuking China for no reason other than not wanting to pay the debt to them

huh

no we would just declare all our debts void as part of the fascist revolution

china would then have the option of sitting on their hands or trying to interfere with us if they did which they wouldnt we would kill them all

then the rest of the world would have the choice of sitting on their hands or trying interfere if they did which they wouldnt then everyone would probably die maybe some people in remote locales would survive i dont know how many nukes emperor bill o'reilly would use in that situation
You guys suck. I lost so much money today and the systems barely held together handling the loads. I felt like Scotty on the Enterprise with a totally unrealistic deisire for more power. If I had a Spock I'd have kicked him right into the reactor room and he can mind meld up the as
lol

[mph4ever]

china already holds 75% of all american dollars anyway. its worthless, lulz at the chinese for thinking that americans would allow them to hold so much of their currency and not devalue it significantly and start again hahahahaha

[Reaganista]

china already holds 75% of all american dollars anyway
ya i bet that's true

[Crapdragoon]

I'm not worried.

[mph4ever]

ya i bet that's true

and its a paper dollar, not like its backed by anything other than a guarantee, used to be the case, i heard, that you could walk into a bank and ask for silver or gold, not anymore. pretty soon we'll be walking into banks and asking for chicken chow mein and prawn chop suey as the chinese try to figure out how to use all the american bank outlets they own

[Reaganista]

how many bank outlets is that

[Det_Nosnip]

lol.

[DBoons Ghost]

Actually this is all panic related.. and the sky isn't falling just yet. It's just amazing how the media now seem to control the stock market too. The failed vote on the bail out caused a sell off because of the rookies in the market right now.

[pppoe]

The United States could bomb the whole world if it wanted to and I think we should do it. Our toughest enemies will be Europe and Asia but we've got enough nukes to wipe them out. Who's left? Africa, Latin America and Australia. The Africans and Latin Americans have only rocks and Australians are mad lame.

[Reaganista]

ive been thinking about nuclear war more than i should lately and i think now would be a good time to try to strike first and win it i dont think the rest of the world would expect it

the downside is there's still prolly a solid 80% chance that they'll catch on soon enough to nuke us back

[pppoe]

We'll nuke their nukes and then nuke them.

[Reaganista]

ya that's the idea

[Apollyon]

ive been thinking about nuclear war more than i should lately and i think now would be a good time to try to strike first and win it i dont think the rest of the world would expect it

the downside is there's still prolly a solid 80% chance that they'll catch on soon enough to nuke us back

that's why we launch a spy plane offensive against all opposing nations and strike them with EMPs to disarm their response systems and then fire our nukes

by the time they get everything up and running again the bombs will be going off

[FallingSnow]

So, as it turns out, 95 Democrats voted against the bailout too.

They could have passed it without a single Rebublican vote.

Yay to liberals for rising to the task after pointing the finger at conservatives.

Idiots.

[Already_Taken]

hababi?

[Det_Nosnip]

Conservatives (including McCain) opposed the plan. Even if what you are saying is true, that still does not exactly make Republicans look great, either.

[Aaron]

Way to spend all your money on pointless wars.

[Apollyon]

Way to spend all your money on pointless wars.

do you guys have television yet in australia and news stations like we do in the 1st world because i'm pretty sure that australia was right there with us

[Aaron]

1) Yes. If it wasn't for the Parkes Relay Station, you wouldn've never seen the moon landing.

2) You failed to note the irony of my statement whereby I, impersonated those who try link everything to Iraq here.

[Apollyon]

tbh your government has heated debates over food portions and unjustly small serving sizes so you should probably just kick everyone out of office

and on a friendly note, :h5: for still having one of those liberi user titles i had almost forgotten all about those

i remember scripting the same kind of link but my titles said, "CJS for Moderator!" or something to that effect

[Aaron]

yeah, unfortunately we demonstrate well how representative democracy doesn't elect the best, just the least-worse.

haha glad someone else noticed it. I changed it for a time, but missed it and manually changed it back for reminisco-lulz.

[Smokey D]

So, as it turns out, 95 Democrats voted against the bailout too.

They could have passed it without a single Rebublican vote.

Yay to liberals for rising to the task after pointing the finger at conservatives.

Idiots.

It's great that you ignore the majority of Republicans voted against it.

[JohnXDoe]

its official. the republican party has been hijacked by idiots and crooks, and we have 95 spineless jellyfish dems in congress that need to be voted the hell out

the republican party are self interested, bought and sold crooks

never will i ever look to them again

fools

[pppoe]

Why anyone would look to the Republicans ever is beyond me.

[BridgeToSolace]

that's why we launch a spy plane offensive against all opposing nations and strike them with EMPs to disarm their response systems and then fire our nukes

by the time they get everything up and running again the bombs will be going off

Any country worth their own nuts uses EMP shielding on their important ****.

I mean c'mon...

[JohnXDoe]

Why anyone would look to the Republicans ever is beyond me.
well i'm always willing to give someone a fair shake

but this is unconscionable. absolutely absurd. are they really that disconnected from the lives of the people of our country they really have no clue? if it doesn't hurt "them" they don't care?

and the Nancy Pelosi excuse? are they high?

"she said mean things we will sink the country to put her in her place"

are they dumb?

no higher taxes on THEM, no regulation on Wall Street to help avoid potential financial disaster like this, no government involvement even if it means full collapse of the market

and what of the House Minority Leader. the guy is a crook and a scam. fuking smarty pants. i saw him last week saying "well we have our own bailout plan completely funded by the private sector"

fu a hole. so you idiots don't have to be accountable to anybody? so you won't have to ENDURE regulation and can keep ripping off people blind and sinking the economy with your "free markets"

what a goddamn mess. i honestly think they will pass this bill but are stonewalling until things get worse. so things get worse, the bailout happens, but to less success. so when Barack Obama takes office things won't be so rosy for him and the dems. and the dems won't be given full credit for putting the country straight and cleaning up Republican / Wall Street shi.t

yeah i'm tying Wall Street to the GOP because obviously Wall Street has them by the balls. although at this point even Wall Street wants a bailout. its just the repubs own stupid ideology at work, most likely. and the stubborn pride that comes with failure

the house minority leader says "we are getting thousands of calls from our constituency saying don't pass this bill." well since when do idiots who know shi.t about shi.t except to dial a phone and complain run the goddamn country? i vote for people to do a job, not for idiots who call congress to bitch to do the job for them. wtf do they know?

fuk this SHI.T

[Det_Nosnip]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Shell]

maybe I should hold off on remodeling my bathroom and just save up some cash in a coffee can buried in the backyard

[PshSam]

Now you're on the right track.

[McP3000]

maybe I should hold off on remodeling my bathroom and just save up some cash in a coffee can buried in the backyard
best economic advice ive heard in a long time

seriously the stock market is for obscenely rich people and dumbasses. My family lost so much money after 9/11, ill never let my e-money be touched by those yankee crooks.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Can someone from the states clear me up on this?


seems like the bailout failed because even though everyone agrees it's necessary, nobody wants to go down in history as having supported it. a bunch of people voted no hoping it would pass anyway, but they calculated wrong and it ended up not passing.

[Apollyon]

i'm glad the bailout didn't pass TBH

this is a situation that needs to be cured by better business practice and the people need to see something that will restore their faith in big business to convince them to invest again

the federal government going "oh no mr bill" and blowing billions of dollars that we don't have to bail out every business that starts going under isn't proving anything except that the government is terrified of losing income and couldn't care less if the little businesses go under as long as their big bank building partners are still floating

[JohnXDoe]

best economic advice ive heard in a long time

that is great economic advice for the individual. unfortunately our economic system isn't set up for it. at least not anymore. one person doing that, great for them. a whole country doing that? we call that poverty here.

which brings to mind my amazement at the divide in this country. i can't blame people for having an opinion, but if its ignorant it just is

somehow in this country we're stuck on "talk radio stupid." with blame and pointing fingers to spare. and the EGO in Washington. always there of course, but never so apparent as now

this has me pretty angry. and the worse of it is the average citizen who has no fuking clue. i am an average citizen, but i think i have a small clue

i see people on the news saying "it has nothing to do with me" and "don't bail out the bastards." and of course the well off might want this because they will be well off no matter what. and the ones who might not be, well, some of them don't really realize what it is not to be. so they can find out. and the truly rich in this country? oh sure they may lose a ton of "stock" money, but they have plenty of paper money to get them by. and even if it were greatly devalued, more is still more. a lot more. and they know it will come back around. including their stock money. sooner or later

so they will be great. but for the vast majority of us this can suck very bad. and sure, even the well off could suffer. some of them

so when i hear people say "blah blah blah don't bail THEM out and blah blah blah" who the hell are they talking about? the country is about to undergo a credit freeze. if they thought about that for a goddamn second they might realize the seriousness of the situation

we buy NOTHING outright in the country. a few things, but not a lot of things. even if you didn't, someone borrowed and is paying for that item you have. with credit. if the banks run out of money (our money) they have no more money to give. that is credit. and we have the money that is left in our pockets and in our bank accounts. thats it

go to buy a car. no money. do most people have $20,000 cash on hand to pay for a new car? doubt it. they night have that much saved, but it can't ALL be spent on a car. that would be unwise

so, the car doesn't get bought and the people who make the car aren't needed because you don't build what can't be sold. so people lose work. which enables us to live.

worse yet, the companies who supply us with goods and services can't borrow money, either. money they count on to stay in business and do business and pay their employees everyday. their is no more money to stay in business everyday, and it all shuts down. and if the company goes, so do the people who work for the company

our "coffee can" as a nation is empty, the shelves are bare

of course we could all start saving and living within our own means and putting away for a rainy day. but really, who are we kidding? ourselves, mostly. in a country where buildings are taken down and our President tells us "don't let them change our way of life. go shopping!"

this is even closer then we think to disaster. no student loans, no car loans, no housing loans....go to put gas in the car....no more money on that Visa. buy something online with your Mastercard? nope, sry. so you say its a debit card?

umm. better check your bank acoount. all the money has gone buh-bye

we need action and leadership NOW and the repubs are busy saying "if it wasn't for that bitch NANCY we'd have the bill passed. but fuk the American people and its Nancy's fault. oh, and we are looking out for you...the AMERICAN TAX PAYER"

no thanks geniuses we've had enough of that B.S. for too long

[Smokey D]

seems like the bailout failed because even though everyone agrees it's necessary, nobody wants to go down in history as having supported it. a bunch of people voted no hoping it would pass anyway, but they calculated wrong and it ended up not passing.

It appears to be that way.


this is a situation that needs to be cured by better business practice and the people need to see something that will restore their faith in big business to convince them to invest again

No. It needs to be cured by making sure the banks are comfortable lending to one another again.


the federal government going "oh no mr bill" and blowing billions of dollars that we don't have to bail out every business that starts going under isn't proving anything except that the government is terrified of losing income and couldn't care less if the little businesses go under as long as their big bank building partners are still floating

No that's not what it involves at all.

[Apollyon]

that's sure how it looks to those of us on main street

[Smokey D]

That main street metaphor is nauseating.

And it's much more important to fix the problem than to appease whatever the average Americna thinks is right.

[Apollyon]

well then point me in the direction of the magic pill that will fix all of our ailments

[McP3000]

its the blue one

[Smokey D]

well then point me in the direction of the magic pill that will fix all of our ailments

There's no magic pill. But it doesn't make it better to do nothing.

[Apollyon]

actively trying to a fix problem that we don't know how to fix can most likely just make things worse

[Smokey D]

Okay. But it's incumbent on you to show that staunching the bleeding is going to make things worse.

[Apollyon]

putting a band-aid on an arterial wound only covers up the problem until it bleeds through

[Smokey D]

That's true. I don't think $700 billion qualifies as a band aid though.

[Shell]

didn't they also try to add on a bunch of extra **** to the bill? how is this supposed to build confidence in anything? call it an emergency, then tack on your special interest **** anyway? that's not good

I can't actually find a decent article regarding what was actually written into the bill

[Apollyon]

That's true. I don't think $700 billion qualifies as a band aid though.

it's just a big band-aid rather than the average sized one is all

there was a protest the day before yesterday right down the street from my house with people picketing against this bail out because it's nothing but a special interests scam designed to look like a wide-scale solution

this bill being shot down is far from a bad thing

[JohnXDoe]

didn't they also try to add on a bunch of extra **** to the bill? how is this supposed to build confidence in anything? call it an emergency, then tack on your special interest **** anyway? that's not good

I can't actually find a decent article regarding what was actually written into the bill
the bill was simple and also helped people who lost or might lose their homes. it also included provisions for limiting CEO "golden parachutes" and put into motion a pathway for some regulations

this is no pork barrel spending bill. it was to flood the market with money and get people reinvesting and boost confidence

instead investors lost 1 trillion dollars yesterday and overseas markets are plummeting this morning

this isn't about "earmarks and add ons"

[Shell]

then what the hell is all the fuss??

[Smokey D]

it's just a big band-aid rather than the average sized one is all

Doesn't look like it to me.

there was a protest the day before yesterday right down the street from my house with people picketing against this bail out because it's nothing but a special interests scam designed to look like a wide-scale solution

We'll see how they feel when the banks stop lending to small businesses.

this bill being shot down is far from a bad thing

It's appalling.

[JohnXDoe]

then what the hell is all the fuss??
the fuss is politics and people in Washington trying to hold on to power and hedge bets

its said many democrats who know the bill is unpopular with some in the public voted no because they were scared how it might pan out and pan out with their "constituency." more so, they figured their "yes" votes weren't needed bcuz it would get enough

so they hedged their bets and safely voted "no" because they figured "hey, if it doesn't work we can say "we told you so" and if it did work they could say "well, it would have worked out anyway". or "I WAS LOOKING OUT FOR THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER"

bunch of BS

so far as the repubs they're just full of crap. they don't want government involved or paying for anything in this country. they would much prefer the country swing out of control and the economy go to shi.t

Country First

Don't Raise Taxes

No Regulation

Every Man For Himself


as long as it favors the crooks of the country

its a scam

[SnackaryBinx]

I should take all my money out of my bank and protect it with a shotgun.

[JohnXDoe]

honestly some people think thats an ok way to live. frickin' "Maverick" John McCain and "Cowboys" Reagan and Bush. and they impose these wacky visions on the average American citizen

"well if the 'ol banks go belly up well, i'm just sit here with my shotgun and ride this wave out. i'm a HARD WORKING AMERICAN and i dun't need no bailout. i'm gonna shoot the first nig.ger that come through mah door or my neighbor's and i'ma gonna protect MY stuff. can't trust the government, neither."

its not quite that literal, but it adds up to that. and they impose these "tough" bootstrap ideals on the public

some people have been wanting government OUT for two hundred years. and they still do

however, they also want it in. i know plenty of republicans. we all do. sometimes i talk to them. i have some in my family

McCain

Fund the military

Lower my taxes

Private (greedy) EVERYTHING

No regulation

Police to keeep the "bad guys" in control...

...and to protect them from the new starving masses, i guess


this is their idea of effective government. these are college educated people with big 401k's, they go to church, and do some charity work

they are sane and intelligent and can make good arguments for their ideals

unfortunately they're ideals are full of shi.t and through the years have become paranoid and self interested

"America has no problems but the people who are the problem"

this is what they truly believe

its a pretty sick country we live in atm. this really is us. and much of the world is prolly loving it

turns out Bin Laden didn't have to take down the WTC to "bring the United States economic system down." which was his intention. nope, we're doing that pretty well ourselves

[SnackaryBinx]

man, it seems all the stupid **** happens during my lifetime. I'm doing college next year and it sounds like one student loan will butt **** me forever.

[Aaron]

this bill being shot down is far from a bad thing
The trillion that was wiped off the stock market today says otherwise.

[JohnXDoe]

man, it seems all the stupid **** happens during my lifetime.
nah you're just in it a little early. or a little late. because as children we don't know any of this crap

but no generation here escapes this stuff. now THIS is something altogether different. but it has happened before. because of the world we live in we might be better off individually. but it did happen

other then that look back a littte since WWII. BIG events. we have that, Korea, Vietnam for our wars and now this. Nixon, assassinations, civil rights, cold war

before that we had a civil war, all kinds of wars building the country. slavery, racism. women couldn't vote 'til the goddamn twenties

this is America. some of us believe in it, others make it very hard to

but if you live long enough one thing is for sure, the shi.t is gonna hit the fan for the country sooner or later and you're gonna be right in it

lots of "stupid **** " to come :(

[Aaron]

lol @ congress being out due to jewish holiday, when its the jewish bankers involved

[Shell]

I think there are plenty of ways that this plan could fail though... but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.

Why can't the billionaires who run the businesses bail them out themselves? Collectively they probably have way more than 700 billion dollars.

I read the bill at work last night... well, I skimmed it really because I didn't understand a lot of what it was saying. It's not too specific about how this plan is going to be carried out, and seems to give a lot of general power to Secretary Paulson.

How is this actually going to be funded? Will they increase income taxes for everyone in general, or just cut funding to other areas? Or just **** out some new money to give to the bankers?

I wish I had paid more attention in economics :(

[Mr. Ron]

what do people think of what he says?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6MoywA_Jos

[JohnXDoe]

its full of shi.t the country is TRILLIONS of $'s in debt already and no one was screaming about it before!

we operate at a $400b debt every year in the name of "lower taxes" and "small government" (lol) and have to borrow chinese money to stay in business. this is out government

meahwhile retard wants to get a felt pen out and do some useless math and start talking about how much its going to "cost" each person / taxpayer. and lobbyists and all kinds of stupid irrelevant crap

this bailout isn't to fix, overhaul, tax, or "burden" anyone. its to prevent total economic meltdown or lesson the effects of what might still be to come

nothing gets rosy after this. but it keeps the ship afloat while we try to figure out how not to reach the bottom

what i think is the guy is an a$$wipe

although i must admit to only listening to half of his...math lesson

[Mr. Ron]

well his point to it all is near the end

[JohnXDoe]

damn...gotta go back and listen

sry i'm kinda busy atm

<_<

i'll give him a fair shake

[Mr. Ron]

he basically says that if we bail them out, no one will really learn anything and it will continue to happen.

[niobium]

the lenders will learn a lesson but their kids won't. we'll have another one of these in 50 years.

[JohnXDoe]

he basically says that if we bail them out, no one will really learn anything and it will continue to happen.

well, i agree. but is causing possible pain for people who don't understand or care about this the way to teach Wall Street a lesson or us? because it falls hard on the common man who is not really responsible for this. blame really should not be put here

under our economic system without regulations, oversight, and good law this is bound to happen. money...the most powerful thing on this earth, is very intoxicating for many. the lessons learned for many is "shi.t happens lets do it again"

because man we love seeing those good times roll :chug:

its like Bush said "Wall Street got drunk"

from the words of the President. then it went out driving :/

i think lessons need not be learned here. not the punishing kind. we have a good system, but we need not abuse it and we need not leave EVERYTHING to the private sector when it comes to money. government must be allowed and trusted to oversee our economy more closely. not like before, but in a new way. a way that protects the public and our economic system

nothing is perfect, doesn't mean bad times won't come. but maybe we can be ready and maybe the almighty dollar doesn't have to be king

idk if lessons need be learned. lets just get some sound judgment, leadership, and a change in values where we need it. if we can do that, the rest can fall into place the best it can

so far as i'm concerned lesson learned, time to move on

Obama '08 :smoke:


but yeah i'ma listen to him again

[FallingSnow]

It's great that you ignore the majority of Republicans voted against it.

The problem here is that everyone KNEW beyond the shadow of a doubt most Republicans wouldn't support it. So, as the majority, the Democratic Party has a responsibility to assert their power and "make something happen". As I said, they could have passed it without a single Republican vote, and should have been prepared to do so in the light of the fact that everyone knew most members of the GOP opposed it. They have as much of a responsibility to step up to the plate as anyone else, perhaps more so.

I also have a problem with Pelosi injecting venom into a process and effort that had miraculously became fairly bipartisan. Whether or not that actually affected the vote (which I don't believe) is up for debate, but that's not something you do when you are supposedly trying to work together.

Another issue of mine is that the Republicans who opposed the bill had specific problems with how it would function and the accountability it would require, as well as issues of liquidity. The Democrats had no such excuse. It was expected that nearly every Democrat would vote in favour of it, and for some reason (I suspect public influence and reelection fears) did not.

The largest problem of all here, though, is the problem that was the start of it all: us. We The People. Far be it for any citizen to place the blame on themselves. We are part of the cause, and we are exascerbating the problem heavily by not being informed of what is going on, and why, and what is trying to be done to fix it.

Perhaps people will think differently next time the economy is on a high, and they decide to buy that Escalade or 6 bedroom house that they absolutely have to have but don't really think about whether they could afford it when the economy levels off or slows slightly. Part of it is the lenders' fault; a very large part of it is our own.

[Give me Beer]

I like how I've been told all my life "If you don't learn your history you're bound to repeat it" and for some reason, some people are perfectly happy and capable of doing just that. I mean, these arguments against the bail out are just a rehash of the '30s arguments against economic legislation. Schadenfreude is all great, but if you're only thinking short term you're going to get f'cked.

I'm also feeling pretty smug having my money at the KBC, a bank nick named the 'farmers bank' because they don't take many risks like the ones that got the economy to this point. The other big banks over here are in a lot of trouble. The biggest Benelux bank was just saved by the combined Belgian/Dutch/Luxemburg state.

Also, I like how the idiocy of American politicians is f'cking a lot of people over here over.

[FallingSnow]

*idiocy of Americans in general

[mph4ever]

lenders are a disgrace, chasing targets. i had a situation where a loan was being approved and if i kept the application amount below a certain level then a rank and file type bloke could sign it off, a cent higher and it would be scrutinised. it was the difference between 1,000,000 and 1,000,001. so the lads with on target earnings potential sell as much as they can and exploit the guidelines to suit themselves.

money is the only commodity on earth that, when we borrow it, it makes us feel rich and better. its sold as a product to us that way. what they are really selling is debt, long term debt, if they presented it like that then a lot more people would be a lot more cautious

taxpayers should never have to bail out private companies. we bail out government overspend through taxes, we bail out health, defence, education etc all the time. banks are private, they should sort their own sh!t. they should be forced to sort it out. they should be putting bonds in place that insure our money, that protect against risk. they should be regulated such that governments could stand over them.

pretty soon we will visit our bank manager and he will have a government rep and a pwc/accenture/kpmg and a solicitor sitting with him/her to make sure they don't mess up

[FallingSnow]

The problem is though, if you let economic downturns go too far, it starts to put too much strain on the financial workings of the government. There is a point where at least an attempt at a bailout is necessary.

Believe me, I'm pretty conservative economically, but I know when it's gone too far.

[DBoons Ghost]

Umm..

You know, people who have money in commercial banks are in no danger of losing a single penny of their money.

This debacle really has no bearing on savings banks but I guess if you guys insist upon saying how great your bank is because they take no risks, whatever that means, I guess I can't stop you.

This isn't even the government's fault. It's the lack of regulation on a capitalist free-market system that is designed to exploit loopholes in the economy to profit.

I wish people in this thread and others like it would get the issue right on who is affected by this and why. It seems everyone is taking an opportunity to say how great their country is yay for my little small town bank.

The American politician is not to blame. The consumer is for being greedy, and the lenders for preying on that desire and greed.

Anyone who signed on for a loan based purely on their equity to pay it should be bankrupted and homeless. As should those who targetted them. Even though Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac gave people their lives as a result of such programs before they were exploited. Low income areas were always targetted for these programs and long term mortgages created based on equity gains have been around a long time. They just went too far too fast.

It's almost like a broken record explaining this over and over.

[808]

DBoon, let's move to an island where we won't have to worry about this stuff. We can chill on the beach all day and you can tell me about your childhood shenanigans.

[Mister_Che]

Anyone hear about Obama proposing a raise in the FDIC insured limit to $250,000?

[FallingSnow]

Umm..

You know, people who have money in commercial banks are in no danger of losing a single penny of their money.

This debacle really has no bearing on savings banks but I guess if you guys insist upon saying how great your bank is because they take no risks, whatever that means, I guess I can't stop you.

This isn't even the government's fault. It's the lack of regulation on a capitalist free-market system that is designed to exploit loopholes in the economy to profit.

I wish people in this thread and others like it would get the issue right on who is affected by this and why. It seems everyone is taking an opportunity to say how great their country is yay for my little small town bank.

The American politician is not to blame. The consumer is for being greedy, and the lenders for preying on that desire and greed.

Anyone who signed on for a loan based purely on their equity to pay it should be bankrupted and homeless. As should those who targetted them. Even though Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac gave people their lives as a result of such programs before they were exploited. Low income areas were always targetted for these programs and long term mortgages created based on equity gains have been around a long time. They just went too far too fast.

It's almost like a broken record explaining this over and over.




I feel like I've been the only one saying most of what you just said there. Thank you for being someone who actually recognises "We The People" as being the problem.

However (about your first point), most savings banks also have their hands in loans, both auto and mortgage, so it can potentially affect them as well. But all other points still stand.

[DBoons Ghost]

I feel like I've been the only one saying most of what you just said there. Thank you for being someone who actually recognises "We The People" as being the problem.

However (about your first point), most savings banks also have their hands in loans, both auto and mortgage, so it can potentially affect them as well. But all other points still stand.

Loans are traded on the open market every day. The main bulk of the note, or principal of the loan might stay with the bank (but not really), but the interest is traded over the market on a daily basis to see who will collect and make the money on that interest rate (or lower). That's how they create these triple A bonds out of a mortgage, or student loan. Make no mistake though.. as bad as it was on the residential housing market, it was no different on the commercial. They all gambled the same. Yeah your average home mortgage was 200k, and if more then 2 million Americans defaulted, do the math. However, on a commercial property the same principles apply, but drastically increased. Your average commercial mortgage is between 5 and 10 million dollars, and if 200,000 small businesses defaulted on their loans, it creates a much much different situation. We're in a mix of both. All the debt created by these mortgages, and insuring this debt (lol, AIG) explodes when the amount of defaulted loans supercedes the amount still in good standing. Where do you go when you as the lender cannot collect? AIG, FDIC..

It's ambiguous at best but the banks who bought up all the interest bearing based loans for example, are the ones hardest hit. However, no one's money is or was ever at risk. It's the loan amounts and the fact that it's assigned to a property that is now no longer collecting revenue on.

Any mortgage lender has a sure thing in 15 to 30 year fixed rate mortgages. Whenever they have more interest bearing mortgages (ARMs) then fixed rate mortgages, you create the potential for disaster.

And who in their right mind would take on debt that you cannot pay on the premise that your equity will grow when you know yuo bought at the peak of the market?

I also wanted to mention that I know at least 8 people who make more then 500k a year who were affected by this and now are living with their retired parents in the house they grew up in.

So it wasn't just the middle class. This banged everyone over the head.

[FallingSnow]

Anyone hear about Obama proposing a raise in the FDIC insured limit to $250,000?

He wasn't the only one. Both McCain and Obama pressured measures like that this morning when they talked to President Bush. McCain was actually the first one to state it publicly though (probably because his press conference deal was scheduled earlier than Obama's gathering).

I'm still debating whether it's a good idea or not.

[DBoons Ghost]

DBoon, let's move to an island where we won't have to worry about this stuff. We can chill on the beach all day and you can tell me about your childhood shenanigans.

Yeah I wish I could man.

I really do.

[Smokey D]

i'm sitll reeling that Falling Snow expected the Democrats to sign over a blank check while saying the Reublicans were justified in their obstinancy.

[mph4ever]

The American politician is not to blame. The consumer is for being greedy, and the lenders for preying on that desire and greed.

Anyone who signed on for a loan based purely on their equity to pay it should be bankrupted and homeless. As should those who targetted them. Even though Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac gave people their lives as a result of such programs before they were exploited. Low income areas were always targetted for these programs and long term mortgages created based on equity gains have been around a long time. They just went too far too fast.



i got this, people have freedom of choice. people can be victims of predators.

[FallingSnow]

i'm sitll reeling that Falling Snow expected the Democrats to sign over a blank check while saying the Reublicans were justified in their obstinancy.

You misconstrue what I say. There is no argument as to the stubbornness of the Republicans; however, many of them had justifiable reasons. You can't honestly say "All the Republicans are idiots; they all voted no because they're stubborn and stupid". That's naive. I am not giving Republicans a free pass; there is both blame and praise to be had there.

It is the same with the Democrats. I commend them for actively pushing the bailout; I blame them for not being able to take matters into their own hands when they had the power to do so and the time called for it.

Neither side is without fault; however, neither side deserves full blame because there are plenty on both sides who worked diligently to make things work for everyone.

Both sides have varying reasons for voting yes or no, and I believe they all have valid points and also points that are ridiculous.


Why is it that every time I try to be moderate I get tagged as even more conservative than before? People need to use their heads, that's all I'm saying.

[DBoons Ghost]

i got this, people have freedom of choice. people can be victims of predators.

I sense the sarcasm but I fail to see the humor or enlightenment in this statement. Perhaps you could clarify what you intended with this remark?

[Smokey D]

I don't think all Republicans are idiots, especially not all Republicans who have made it to federal level government. What I'm confused about is why the Republicans could have had justified reasons but the Democrats who turned down the bail out couldn't. Most of their reasons would have been the same. The parties aren't that different in composition. Both sides would have been receiving the same pressure not to sign on to the deal.

[Mister_Che]

He wasn't the only one. Both McCain and Obama pressured measures like that this morning when they talked to President Bush. McCain was actually the first one to state it publicly though (probably because his press conference deal was scheduled earlier than Obama's gathering).

I'm still debating whether it's a good idea or not.

Yes and no. Obama was the first to state it publicly, but the idea had been floating around for a while.

Granted, most people won't benefit from the full 100k that the FDIC insures, much less the 250k proposed. What this is really meant to do is help small businesses who need to have more money on hand for other things.

Obviously it won't help the common man but it would help smaller businesses. Keep in mind that the current FDIC limit was established a long time ago, and has since gone without any adjustments for inflation.

[mph4ever]

I sense the sarcasm but I fail to see the humor or enlightenment in this statement. Perhaps you could clarify what you intended with this remark?

no sarcasm at all. people who borrowed money without considering the implications are responsible. people who broke the rules or guidelines to lend others money without considering the implications are responsible.

heres what i wrote earlier on the lender side of things


lenders are a disgrace, chasing targets. i had a situation where a loan was being approved and if i kept the application amount below a certain level then a rank and file type bloke could sign it off, a cent higher and it would be scrutinised. it was the difference between 1,000,000 and 1,000,001. so the lads with on target earnings potential sell as much as they can and exploit the guidelines to suit themselves.

money is the only commodity on earth that, when we borrow it, it makes us feel rich and better. its sold as a product to us that way. what they are really selling is debt, long term debt, if they presented it like that then a lot more people would be a lot more cautious

[DBoons Ghost]

no sarcasm at all. people who borrowed money without considering the implications are responsible. people who broke the rules or guidelines to lend others money without considering the implications are responsible.

heres what i wrote earlier on the lender side of things

Yeah the lender side of things is key.

In order for some people to qualify for a subprime loan, they of course had to meet certain criteria. This presented the biggest problem. Forget the fact that the ARM and it's gains were based purely on equity, barring that the borrower had no down payment, much less a job that met the minimum requirements, barring that they were TOLD that at the end of the length of the ARM they would have to pay principal over the interest, they still lived out of their means and chose not to save money in order to prepare for when their ARM expired. They were buying a 250k house. It was assumed this house would be worth 450K at the end of the adjustable rate mortgage. This assumption and ones like it was what killed it. If the lender had been complicit in the risks, the borrower might have thought twice, but they chose not to hire a lawyer, or read the fine print, or live like a normal person who just bought a house. No.. they chose to ignore it and "hope for the best".

Then they turn around and yell at Uncle Sam for not helping. Get the **** out.

In all reality, you can't even pull a "Sweden" and put this in the sharholders hands, or the CEOs. They mostly got paid out in stock options. Lol. Worthless now eh?

UBS and HSBC's stock options are worth less then what anyone paid for them. Worth less then what they were paid out as bonuses. Not to mention all those bills bought when USD was still strong, and look at it now? You don't think that effects the worth of these bills on the open market?

I doubt anyone realistically thinks that the collective shareholders of Wachovia, Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, etc etc. are worth one half of the debt hole these people are in.

We just gotta suck it up and learn from this and move on.

[FallingSnow]

Yes and no. Obama was the first to state it publicly, but the idea had been floating around for a while.

Granted, most people won't benefit from the full 100k that the FDIC insures, much less the 250k proposed. What this is really meant to do is help small businesses who need to have more money on hand for other things.

Obviously it won't help the common man but it would help smaller businesses. Keep in mind that the current FDIC limit was established a long time ago, and has since gone without any adjustments for inflation.

I'm only worried about the complete depletion of FDIC funds in the event of a total economic meltdown. You can't save everyone, but you can definitely make things worse trying.

[FallingSnow]

I don't think all Republicans are idiots, especially not all Republicans who have made it to federal level government. What I'm confused about is why the Republicans could have had justified reasons but the Democrats who turned down the bail out couldn't. Most of their reasons would have been the same. The parties aren't that different in composition. Both sides would have been receiving the same pressure not to sign on to the deal.

Many of the Democrats sided against their party due to voter concerns,which is ridiculous. The only thing I've heard from Republicans are the actual concerns regarding liquidity, accountability, etc. I'm not saying some of the Democrats had the same concerns, but I feel that it was up to them to pull their party together. They have continued to talk about change and getting things done, but when the party as a whole has the opportunity to actually accomplish something without even worrying about a single republican vote, and they fail, I think that speaks volumes about their ability to change anything as well.

I spend so much time on this board pointing out Democratic fault because this is a VERY liberal board where no one else does. That does not mean I absolve Republicans of their stupidity.

[Mister_Che]

I'm only worried about the complete depletion of FDIC funds in the event of a total economic meltdown. You can't save everyone, but you can definitely make things worse trying.

It's a valid concern.

Currently, there exists something like $45 billion in the FDIC fund (not much compared to $700 billion). If for some reason that isn't enough, they can still borrow from the treasury.

Look at it from this perspective. If people approach the $100k, what are they likely to do with the overflow? Take it to another bank, of course. This effectively stops the bank from taking in more money. So if we increase that limit, that brings in more money from banks who can in turn worry less about people making bank runs to withdraw their money, which, as I'm sure you know, can collapse a bank.

Not a likely scenario, but hey.

[Mister_Che]

Many of the Democrats sided against their party due to voter concerns,which is ridiculous. The only thing I've heard from Republicans are the actual concerns regarding liquidity, accountability, etc.

So did the Republicans. If more Republicans voted for the bill, it would've passed.

[Apollyon]

The trillion that was wiped off the stock market today says otherwise.

let the fat cat billionaires bail out wallstreet

the government can't afford it

[Smokey D]

Many of the Democrats sided against their party due to voter concerns,which is ridiculous. The only thing I've heard from Republicans are the actual concerns regarding liquidity, accountability, etc.

I'm pretty sure most of the nay-sayers on both sides cited voter pressure as a major reason they were objecting to the bill.

More to the point, no-one, Republican or Democrat, wants to be associated with an extremely (and unreasonably) unpopular bill 5 weeks before election time.

I'm not saying some of the Democrats had the same concerns, but I feel that it was up to them to pull their party together. They have continued to talk about change and getting things done, but when the party as a whole has the opportunity to actually accomplish something without even worrying about a single republican vote, and they fail, I think that speaks volumes about their ability to change anything as well.

Why wasn't it up to McCain, the President and other Republican leaders to bring their party to heel. You are applying a blatant double standard here.

let the fat cat billionaires bail out wallstreet

Fat cat billionaires have a personal incentive to minimise losses, pull out their money and close up shop, which ends up hurting consumers and ordinary people a lot more than it hurts the fat cats.

[FallingSnow]

Why wasn't it up to McCain, the President and other Republican leaders to bring their party to heel. You are applying a blatant double standard here.





You're missing my point. The Democratic Party had the power to get it done regardless of whether a single Republican showed up that day. Believe me, I'm just as disappointed in the GOP, but there's too much finger pointing going on just because more Republicans opposed it than Democrats. Republican opposition isn't an excuse; the Democrats have the majority and could have used it. If they really want to accomplish something, and know they have the power to, they shouldn't expect and rely upon support from a party they know for a fact doesn't agree with them.

And it was up to McCain and Bush; they tried...and tried hard. The rest of the party had too many issues with the bill itself. Keep in mind, the majority of the GOP supports a bailout; they (for the most part) simply want it done right and have issues with specific things within the bill.

[Smokey D]

You're missing my point. The Democratic Party had the power to get it done regardless of whether a single Republican showed up that day. Believe me, I'm just as disappointed in the GOP, but there's too much finger pointing going on just because more Republicans opposed it than Democrats. Republican opposition isn't an excuse; the Democrats have the majority and could have used it. If they really want to accomplish something, and know they have the power to, they shouldn't expect and rely upon support from a party they know for a fact doesn't agree with them.

I'm not missing the point. Any collection of Republicans and Democrats however composed that formed a majority had the power to pass the Bill into law. It doesn't make sense to say that just because the Democrats form a majority it was their fault for not passing the Bill. It was the fault of all the nay-sayers, whatever party they are part of.



And it was up to McCain and Bush; they tried...and tried hard. The rest of the party had too many issues with the bill itself. Keep in mind, the majority of the GOP supports a bailout; they (for the most part) simply want it done right and have issues with specific things within the bill.

Again with the double standard. How hard do you think the Democrats tried?

[FallingSnow]

I'm not missing the point. Any collection of Republicans and Democrats however composed that formed a majority had the power to pass the Bill into law. It doesn't make sense to say that just because the Democrats form a majority it was their fault for not passing the Bill. It was the fault of all the nay-sayers, whatever party they are part of.



Again with the double standard. How hard do you think the Democrats tried?

1. My point is, they can't point the finger at the Republicans.

2. They didn't have to. The majority of Democrats already supported the measure after it was rewritten from the administration's draft.

[Mister_Che]

They're both at fault here. The Republicans can't blame the Democrats anymore than the Democrats can toss the blame back. You're demonizing Democrats with your argument.

[Smokey D]

My point is, they can't point the finger at the Republicans.

But they can point it at the 2/3 of the Republicans who voted nay. They should also blame the 95 Dems.

They didn't have to. The majority of Democrats already supported the measure after it was rewritten from the administration's draft.

Not enough to pass the Bill, obviously.

[FallingSnow]

As I've said before, I rail against them because no one else does. The republicans don't need anyone else to point out their faults, lol.

But I have also stated that exact opinion multiple times....everyone is at fault here.

[Smokey D]

As I've said before, I rail against them because no one else does. The republicans don't need anyone else to point out their faults, lol.

I've always found it less confusing to blame who is blameworthy and praise who is praiseworthy and avoid the issue of who gets the most blame in the press. If you're trying to come off as moderate, attacking the Democrats for doing the same thing as the Republicans isn't going to get you very far.

[BassRevelation0]

I didn't claim that it wasn't faltering.

I claimed it wasn't going to fail.

Which it's not. No matter how far this goes, America is still going to be the richest country in the world when it ends.

don't kid yourself. A rich household can have a poor economy when the fundamentals are wastefulness and carelessness and greed. You might not be aware of it, but the U.S is in debt, and they continue to act as irresponsible teens who think they have an endless line of credit.

[Raayl]

don't kid yourself. A rich household can have a poor economy when the fundamentals are wastefulness and carelessness and greed. You might not be aware of it, but the U.S is in debt, and they continue to act as irresponsible teens who think they have an endless line of credit.

i completely agree.

[Give me Beer]

Umm..

You know, people who have money in commercial banks are in no danger of losing a single penny of their money.

This debacle really has no bearing on savings banks but I guess if you guys insist upon saying how great your bank is because they take no risks, whatever that means, I guess I can't stop you.

This isn't even the government's fault. It's the lack of regulation on a capitalist free-market system that is designed to exploit loopholes in the economy to profit.

I wish people in this thread and others like it would get the issue right on who is affected by this and why. It seems everyone is taking an opportunity to say how great their country is yay for my little small town bank.

The American politician is not to blame. The consumer is for being greedy, and the lenders for preying on that desire and greed.

Anyone who signed on for a loan based purely on their equity to pay it should be bankrupted and homeless. As should those who targetted them. Even though Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac gave people their lives as a result of such programs before they were exploited. Low income areas were always targetted for these programs and long term mortgages created based on equity gains have been around a long time. They just went too far too fast.

It's almost like a broken record explaining this over and over.

Oh, so what you really want me to say is: **** you Americans for ****ing US over royally? Because, I'm sorry, but it's not the people over here that are spending money that they do not have.

If you would rather hear me curse out the loot of you, then sure.

[Smokey D]

Why did they nationalise Fortis if it isn't overexposed?

[Give me Beer]

Because Fortis wanted to be the biggest bank and the board of directors acted like a bunch of arrogant twats taking risks that they knew they couldn't afford with the climate being the way it is. I was talking about your modal joe though, or are you going to deny that the average American is far more credit relient than the average person over here?

[Chu]

You guys suck. I lost so much money today and the systems barely held together handling the loads. I felt like Scotty on the Enterprise with Krik yelling for a totally unrealistic deisire for more power. If I had a Spock I'd have kicked him right into the reactor room and he can mind meld up the ***.
Did you actually lose "money" though? Or the value on paper? I have a little bit invested myself, but I don't think I've actually "lost" anything yet, I mean they have been severely devalued, but I still have the same amount of shares.

Now maybe a company you have invested in has gone bankrupt, and you really have lost the money, in which case, I'm completely wrong.

I'm not entirely sure, I have a "long term" investment planned, so the current value is insignificant to me, but I can understand retirees or such who have their whole future on the stock market are going to suffer major for this.

That said, I have no idea about the political involvement here, and a lot of this thread just went completely over my head.
But I wanted to clarify what I believe (that we actually haven't "lost" anything yet?) with someone who no doubt knows what they are talking about.

[Smokey D]

Because Fortis wanted to be the biggest bank and the board of directors acted like a bunch of arrogant twats taking risks that they knew they couldn't afford with the climate being the way it is. I was talking about your modal joe though, or are you going to deny that the average American is far more credit relient than the average person over here?

I don't know, but I'm not sure I agree Europe is going to come out smelling of roses from this crisis.

[Give me Beer]

That's not what I was trying to claim either. Funny side effect of the crisis, a week ago it was political crisis due to communitarian dialogue not moving one inch and now %Leterme (our PM) went from being the scapegoat to the hero for 'saving' our financial institutions. For the first time since becoming PM he actually looked like the leader of our government. From divisive to unifying, thank you big banking. ;)

[DBoons Ghost]

Did you actually lose "money" though? Or the value on paper? I have a little bit invested myself, but I don't think I've actually "lost" anything yet, I mean they have been severely devalued, but I still have the same amount of shares.

Now maybe a company you have invested in has gone bankrupt, and you really have lost the money, in which case, I'm completely wrong.

Well, no. Not a single penny. Even though my UBS and HSBC stock options have seriously devalued, they were given as part of a bonus incentive and since they were free, I haven't lost anything. I have two other major funds both in Fidelity and Vanguard and since they are based on options and US treasuries they tanked hardcore but today they seem back to the value they were before. I did get in some sweet buys too though thanks to the tanked market.. It was a buyers market after all. May as well take advantage of other people's misfortunes. It's the American way. :upset:

I have been under pretty severe stress with the market being where it is. Purely from the system side of things. The day the DOW dipped into the -700 territory, our systems which were designed to handle volume in the millions per minute were working on overdrive and it was insane to be honest. I hadn't witnessed conditions like that since 01. We survived though and I am very proud of the fact that everything held tight.

In the midst of the worst of it, finding out another 2000 of your friends are going to be out of jobs always sucks. A business you helped buildm was torn apart by greed and scumbaggery. It sucks. I don't feel bad for the people. They all walked away with their bonuses secure. Some of them in the tens of millions too. If I get laid off I intend to find them and kill them.

[DBoons Ghost]

Oh, so what you really want me to say is: **** you Americans for ****ing US over royally? Because, I'm sorry, but it's not the people over here that are spending money that they do not have.

If you would rather hear me curse out the loot of you, then sure.

Well, we'd deserve it.

However, UK and Euro traders jumped allll over this too. No one "country" is innocent as this is not a government problem or a "US screwed us over" problem.

We live and work in a global market. The first of these major sell-offs at the expense of you and me were done by a Frenchie at Sociate Generale.

None, and I mean none, save UBS and others, have been asked to report their losses yet.

Everyone across the globe sitting in front of a computer working for an investment bank bought into this. Everyone made money.

[Joe]

Well the Senate just recently passed the bailout. I actually like the new version of the bill much better than the other one, even though I don't really agree with the bailout in the first place.

[FallingSnow]

Lol.

"Let's throw in a bunch of tax cuts and FDIC limit raises and it's all better, even though the bailout portion of the bill is the exact same".

Liberals and Republicans alike are both so ridiculous sometimes.

[Shell]

is it possible for the FDIC to fail?

[Reaganista]

Liberals and Democrats are alike sometimes too

[Joe]

is it possible for the FDIC to fail?

Technically I don't think so. I think if it came down to it they would just print up the money, in which case it wouldn't be worth anything. But I don't really know...good question

[Shell]

well I'm just wondering how it's supposed to make us feel any better for them to increase the FDIC amount, unless we can actually trust them to now screw that up as well

[BridgeToSolace]

I did get in some sweet buys too though thanks to the tanked market.. It was a buyers market after all. May as well take advantage of other people's misfortunes. It's the American way. :upset:


I'd just like to run this by you real quick. Consider it as a generality.

After the dow jones shot down massively, wasn't it the best possible time to buy? I figure it's inevitably going to go back up. So why not?

Feel free to make the answer "Eh, it's complicated." No need to write out something absurd and time consuming.

[JohnXDoe]

Lol.

"Let's throw in a bunch of tax cuts and FDIC limit raises and it's all better, even though the bailout portion of the bill is the exact same".

Liberals and Republicans alike are both so ridiculous sometimes.
well then why not just join the ranks of the cranky, complaining "Independents?"

pfft

Lou Dobbs lol
is it possible for the FDIC to fail?
prolly not. but if people ever have to use the insurance in mass by that time your money prolly wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on, anyway.


on a side note i saw in the news America is ahead of the curve on this thing. the EU and others also have serious economic problems and are now looking into them. their papers are saying we are handling it well, and they are actually investing large sums of cash in our economy at the moment because they think we will rebound and are glad we are "on top of it"

some say they are late, but its coming. to them, we appear ready and able to deal with this. and they're impressed

despite the partisan power hungry a$$wipes in Washington

[Reaganista]

sell options

[JohnXDoe]

well I'm just wondering how it's supposed to make us feel any better for them to increase the FDIC amount, unless we can actually trust them to now screw that up as well
its more for small / medium sized businesses to feel secure about keeping their money in the bank. most individuals don't have $250,000 saved anywhere

[DBoons Ghost]

I'd just like to run this by you real quick. Consider it as a generality.

After the dow jones shot down massively, wasn't it the best possible time to buy? I figure it's inevitably going to go back up. So why not?

Feel free to make the answer "Eh, it's complicated." No need to write out something absurd and time consuming.

Not the best possible time to buy, no. Not individual stocks anyway. But it depends. You have to understand that a 700 point drop doesn't necesarrily "move" the prices of an individual stock to a better buy but it's more volume related. The Dow is just an indication of the average that all the stocks traded in the Dow are worth. There are whole sectors of the market worth billions in real dollars that have nothing to do with the DJIA.

So, I guess I'll default to the "Eh, it's complicated." It takes money to make money.

[JohnXDoe]

i'm pretty disappointed in the "new" bailout plan. i mean 150b dollars added in the form of tax breaks (why tax breaks i thought we had to pay for this mofo) and somehow a mental health insurance bill got tacked on

now i'm all for mental health but you'd have to be a legal gymnast twisting and turning in all sorts of directions to make a connection between financial crisis and mental health insurance. oh sure even i could connect the unlikely dots in argument, but it would be the lamest thing ever

it just amazes me they had to "sweeten" the deal to try to get it passed. the "tax breaks" were at the request of the repubs, i'm sure the mental health thing was a dem idea

its as if they said "here are some things we have been trying to do but have not been able to. lets attach them to this bill so everyone will be FORCED to finally get it done"

sad, sad days in Washington. as if bailing out the economy isn't good enough :/

EVERYONE in Washington it seems complains about "earmarks" and "pork" in bills. but everyone in Washington seems to embrace them when it serves their interest. even in the face of something like this. now THIS bill, i can not be for. but it seems we have no choice :/

[DBoons Ghost]

You will never notice the effects of this bailout dude, so why react this way?

In the end Uncle Sam makes out like a bandit when these companies rebound and pay the loans back.

It won't cost you a penny.

[JohnXDoe]

i just want things straight and for people to do their jobs

wtf with mental health insurance and tax breaks and a number of other things? why can't we just do those things or not. how the hell do they pull this flim flam out of their collective butts?

[DBoons Ghost]

i just want things straight and for people to do their jobs

wtf with mental health insurance and tax breaks and a number of other things? why can't we just do those things or not. how the hell do they pull this flim flam out of their collective butts?

Can't argue there. Who knows. It's all a power play for them.

Soilent Green is PEOPLE!!!

[Raayl]

You will never notice the effects of this bailout dude, so why react this way?

In the end Uncle Sam makes out like a bandit when these companies rebound and pay the loans back.

It won't cost you a penny.

such unbridled cynicism. it's a shame you automatically hate everything i say i think we'd get along pretty well there DB

a+ post.

[DBoons Ghost]

such unbridled cynicism. it's a shame you automatically hate everything i say i think we'd get along pretty well there DB

a+ post.

I do not hate everything you say, automatically. Usually it takes a moment or two.. sometimes longer. :p

I know for a fact I'd get along with just about anyone outside the context of these forums. I do respect your approach to making music, and your desire and passion for what you do. I'll give you that.

[FallingSnow]

well then why not just join the ranks of the cranky, complaining "Independents?"

pfft

Lou Dobbs lol



I just might, except for the fact that most "Independants" are ****ing crazies.

[Detective Dan]

this is the new world order, boys and girls

[Shell]

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u124/HIS_ROYAL_DUDORUNIE/nwo.jpg

[JohnXDoe]

hey look its congress!

[Crapdragoon]

Prepare yourselves for hyper-inflation.


the shi is about to hit tha fan niggas!!!

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

whenever i hear the word hyperinflation i think of the game super mario world when mario inflates and starts flying

[hismajestythepope]

such unbridled cynicism. it's a shame you automatically hate everything i say i think we'd get along pretty well there DB

a+ post.

your music is a constant inspiration to my struggle as a transgender teen

[Smokey D]

Prepare yourselves for hyper-inflation.


the shi is about to hit tha fan niggas!!!

They're not just going to print the money. They're going to get it from somewhere.

[Cesar21]

I just read that the Dow fell 800 points for a new record fall, before recovering 300 something points before closing. Anyone has a bit more detail?

[P13]

the oil bubble finally burst, too.

[Aaron]

They're not just going to print the money. They're going to get it from somewhere.
Where will they borrow from? I can't see there being money lent by China or the any of the Arab states, and they can't really call in their debts when they owe so much...

I wouldn't be suprised if money was created somewhere down the line as a "interim buffer" or through use of some other nonsense term invented. Not that I agree with it.

[Smokey D]

Most of the countries who are in a position to lend to the US understand that if the American economy goes bust so do their own. They may be willing to lend in such situations, though at very high interest.

Also, the US is selling Treasury bonds by the bucket at the moment because everyone is trying to find a safe place to put their cash. That must generate some cash flows.

[:amaze:]

You will never notice the effects of this bailout dude, so why react this way?

In the end Uncle Sam makes out like a bandit when these companies rebound and pay the loans back.

It won't cost you a penny.

could you explain this? from my understanding, the 700 billion is coming from the government. also from my understanding, the government gets its money from taxes that we pay.

i'm not trying to argue, i just don't see how we aren't going to feel the effects of this at all.




:amaze:

[Smokey D]

I think he's saying this is basically an investment made by the government (what the rest of world calls nationalisation) and the tax payers will reap a windfall when the markets recover.

[:amaze:]

but i thought one of the problems was that the market might not fully recover for some time, if at all. and even so ... until it does...




:amaze:

[Smokey D]

Assuming the market does recover, it should't really matter how long it takes to come in. But I can't tell you if the market will actually get better. Historically, stocks have always gone up in the long run so there is that.

[Aaron]

^ so has the cost of living.

[:amaze:]

Assuming the market does recover, it should't really matter how long it takes to come in. But I can't tell you if the market will actually get better. Historically, stocks have always gone up in the long run so there is that.

well yeah ... but if it takes the market 5 years to get back to how it is now, i feel like we'll have felt some effects of this disaster by then.




:amaze:

[Smokey D]

^ so has the cost of living.

How is that relevant?


well yeah ... but if it takes the market 5 years to get back to how it is now, i feel like we'll have felt some effects of this disaster by then.


True.

[:amaze:]

i think he was saying that the cost of living has increased, so adjusting for inflation, the stock market really hasn't constantly gone up like a graph might suggest.




:amaze:

[Smokey D]

I don't have the figures but I think stock markets move quicker than costs of living.

[Aaron]

Yeah exactly what I was implying. I can't see how in the long run it would; you can only spend your wages, when all is said and done.

[Smokey D]

Yeah exactly what I was implying. I can't see how in the long run it would; you can only spend your wages, when all is said and done.

Multiplication effect?

I dunno. The stock market doesn't account for all the money in an economy.

[Aaron]

Which is the problem with the monetary system, in my opinion. Buying based on borrowing-capacity rather than earning-capacity is flawed lodging and shouldn't be encouraged.

[Smokey D]

That doesn't really answer what I said. Every dollar spent is a dollar which another person earns, which can then be spent again. That's why the stock market doesn't account for all the money in the economy.

And people get loans/make investments independent of the stock exchange all the time.

[Aaron]

I'm talking in more general terms; if a person has puts into the economy more than they've actually earnt as income, and everyone does it so freely, then it's a flawed system. That's why stocks are so volatile.

[Smokey D]

It's acceptable up to a point. Debt is fine. Bad debts are what's killing the economy.

[Aaron]

It's not bad debt really, it's a cultural thing. People think they can buy something that they can't afford, and it's due to the mass-scale that it's occurring. I think most debt is bad debt [to speak in less conceptual terms].

[Smokey D]

The only debt that is bad is what you can't repay. If people didn't borrow and lend, the economy would stop moving.

[Aaron]

Yeah we agree, different usage of words, I just think that what is perceived as "can be repayed" is too loose and free and requires closer regulation.

[:amaze:]

yeah. if there was no borrowing/lending, maybe 5% of the population would be able to afford to own homes and/or cars and/or education.




:amaze:

[Aaron]

you misunderstand me; people are borrowing based on the assumption they'll earn more down the track, rather than borrowing what they could afford if their wage stays the same, taking into account their lifestyle.

The application of ceteris parabus gone wrong.

[:amaze:]

ok gotcha. i agree.

i quick-replied my previous post before i read the one right before it.





:amaze:

[Aaron]

no wukkas.

[:amaze:]

wukkas?




:amaze:

[Aaron]

no worries.

[:amaze:]

:thumb:




:amaze:

[Aaron]

:h5:

[Serenity]

you misunderstand me; people are borrowing based on the assumption they'll earn more down the track, rather than borrowing what they could afford if their wage stays the same, taking into account their lifestyle.

The application of ceteris parabus gone wrong.

That's the exact problem with most of this. People are very quick to play the blame game, point fingers at corporations, banks, President Bush, etc., but when it comes down to it, much of it is our own fault. When the economy was doing well, everyone had to get a Cadillac Escalade and a new house, without thinking about the possibility of things slowing down a bit and not being able to afford outrageous payments on extremely expensive things. So things slow down, they can't afford them anymore, and then you have massive foreclosures and car repo's.

[Det_Nosnip]

True, but people are always idiots and can't be expected to learn...that's why we have the government and regulations. Those people should not have been allowed to get their loans.

[Serenity]

It doesn't help when you have agencies (funded by federal money) designed to pressure banks with intimidation tactics to make high risk loans. cough ACORN cough lol

By the way that comment has nothing to do with Obama, just so you know. It's a purely economic commentary.

[Aaron]

True, but people are always idiots and can't be expected to learn...that's why we have the government and regulations. Those people should not have been allowed to get their loans.
People should be educated if they go for a loan though. I think it's ridiculous that people get 500k loans without seeing a financial-advisor. Simple checks and balances can save a lot of grief for a family...