Arts appriciation in western culture

[Ando!]

Why did Miles love Europe so much? Because people recognized him for who he was—a great, great artist, not just a great musician. But traditionally Europe supports culture—jazz or pop or fusion or other alternative forms of music are accepted as valid cultural currencies and are supported as such by the state, by the city, by the governments. Which is something that never really happened in the US. Even the symphony orchestras were supported to a large extent by GM or Ford, but there are quite a number of symphony orchestras that have gone bankrupt over the past fifteen to twenty years. The US government, in particular, does not deem it relevant to support cultural aspects, which I think is an error. But it's like every country, there's good and bad, you just have to go with the flow.”

I was also reading a Mike Stern interview the other day where he said basically the same thing. So, why aren't the fine arts budgeted for in American public education? I mean, the academic effects of having music programs in schools and whatnot have been shown to very distinctly be positive, or at least I believe that to be the case (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anecdotally I can say that my parents made me pick up playing the violin in elementary school and that I'm a better person for it. On however small a level, I was able to develop some appreciation for Beethoven and Dvorak and whatever other snippets of music I learned to play back in the fourth or fifth grade, and that that experience shaped my mind and 'soul' (if you want to address that thing as such) in a positive way.

I think every kid should be forced to experience the fine arts. Whether that means they have to go through a few years of playing whatever instrument suzuki volume I as a minimum or whether we make kids take art history classes or something, I really feel that public schools in america could be doing a much better job of exposing youth to sculpture, painting, music, etc.

[SnackaryBinx]

I value so many positions thanks to my dad for pushing instruments on me. I now play 5 to 6 different instruments, and I can value so much more in music. It's true that fine arts are just tanking in american public schools, and it's a sad thing to see.

[Ando!]

It's not even like we don't have the budget to buy poor kids poopty violins, we just don't

it's baffling

[SnackaryBinx]

they can become the next lil' wayne though! Or you know, actually become good. I've seen kids play instruments today, and all of them seem to be in it just for girls and playing shitty music now, not like it's anything different from hair metal or such, but it makes me sad.

[JohnXDoe]

Arts in western culture?

well, we've got KISS

[badtaste]

I hope the 'western culture' in the title of the thread refers to the USA only.

[AyatollahKhomeini]

art education is important in the national school curriculum, but i think you're putting too much mystique and importance on it. if you force kids to play a violin then you should force them to play a year of football too.

and mass government patronage of professional artists is kinda absurd methinks.

[Pastorius]

Probably because you're newer.

[BridgeToSolace]

We should encourage reading first, then arts.

Prioritize plz/

[Ando!]

I hope the 'western culture' in the title of the thread refers to the USA only.

yeah yeah that wasnt really typed correctly

[pppoe]

What would be the point of putting them through a year of football?

[Reaganista]

this thread is retarded because it implies that miles davis and symphony orchestras are somehow objectively better or more valuable than kanye west and M.I.A.

[Ando!]

where am I implying that

[Reaganista]

the part where you say every kid should be forced to experience the "fine arts"
whatever it is you mean by that

[Ando!]

well I said that because that's the term generally used to encompass sculptures and paintings and whatnot as well as music

[Reaganista]

this thread is retarded because it implies that picasso and rodan are somehow objectively better or more valuable than tagging a mailbox or reading webcomics or w/e

[Ando!]

where did I imply that

[Reaganista]

the part where you say every kid should be forced to experience the "fine arts"
whatever it is you mean by that

[Ando!]

nice try but I'm not really gonna take the bait on that

[Reaganista]

i dont see what bait there is
does a kid who listens to MIA and then tags a mailbox meet your fine arts requirement or not

[Ando!]

well sure I guess

but see those sorts of arts aren't really lacking in american culture

[Reaganista]

well sure I guess

then what's your point


but see those sorts of arts aren't really lacking in american culture
so what

also
unless you mean to contradict the immediately preceding statement with this i dont see what you could possibly mean by that with reference to your first post

[MattSharpIsCool]

I know when I was in 5th grade, the school forced us all to join either band, orchestra, or choir. I think that's actually done quite a bit in my area, but I live in the northwest where we're all a little more liberal and artsy anyways.

Probably not the best way to go about it though, really. Forcing kids to do something isn't really going to make them continue doing it. I played trumpet until the 8th grade, then going into my freshman year I had to drop it because I didn't have enough classes.

But I know a lot of kids (probably most) only played their 5th and 6th grade years when they were required to, then quit.

[Reaganista]

i was required to did choir from 2nd to 5th grade and band from 4th to 8th but i did band another year after that by my choice and then i quit to become a punk rocker =/

[Ando!]

then what's your point


so what

also
unless you mean to contradict the immediately preceding statement with this i dont see what you could possibly mean by that with reference to your first post

my point is that the specific vein of artwork that I was referring to (you know which ones so feigning ignorance) are not as appreciated as they ought to be in American society today

so if they're not lacking they don't need to be supplemented into the curriculum of public education?

also
what are you talking about

for the record I like kanye and justin timberlake and graffiti and whatnot, if that counts for anything here

[Reaganista]

are not as appreciated as they ought to be
why ought they be appreciated

if they're not objectively better than the art we chose to appreciate already

[Ando!]

why ought they be appreciated

if they're not objectively better than the art we chose to appreciate already

why wouldn't we appreciate them

why discourage eclecticism?

[Reaganista]

if they're not any better there's no point in going out of our way to encourage them

[Ando!]

uhh well they have been shown to improve cognitive ability idk if popular music's ever been shown to do that

like are you trying to say having timbaland erases the need for mozart or what

I don't follow you

[Reaganista]

i dont see how there's any need for mozart at all with or without timbaland

but yes if mozart isnt objectively better then there's no point in encouraging people to listen to him over timbaland

[Ando!]

uhh well they have been shown to improve cognitive ability idk if popular music's ever been shown to do that

when did I say mozart should be listened to over timbaland

[GUTS]

the amount of effort, talent, and skill taken to recreate mozart or something simular is far beyond the amount of effort, talent, and skill taken to recreate lil' wayne or something simular. You disagree with that, and i laugh right in your face. in an internet sorta way.

[Ando!]

the amount of effort, talent, and skill taken to recreate mozart or something simular is far beyond the amount of effort, talent, and skill taken to recreate lil' wayne or something simular. You disagree with that, and i laugh right in your face. in an internet sorta way.

well yeah but that doesn't automatically make it better music

[Reaganista]

when did I say mozart should be listened to over timbaland

people currently prefer timbaland
you seem to think that's bad
why dont you just state a coherent position instead of retreating from literally everything

[GUTS]

well better is a term that suggests that music has value, which is arguable in itsself.

maybe the timelessness of art or music is what gives it value. if anyone gives a damn about timbaland, or even knows who he is, in 400 years i'd be surprised.

cathedrals and beethoven withstand the test of time. i guess i cant just say that modern pop bullshyte wont withstand time, but i will say that is definately shouldn't.

[Apollyon]

i don't understand the basis for criticism against the united states in this thread

maybe it's different by state but here in oregon you are required to have 1-2 fine arts credits be it earned through band, orchestra, choir, or drama

i've never been in/around a school where the fine arts aren't encouraged

was john mclaughlin whining because everyone in the united states isn't a jazz fag and most of europe will ejaculate all over anything hip or different idk

[Amit]

timbaland needs to do some colabs with john mclaughlin

[FallingSnow]

In regards to the original point of the thread.....

It is indicative of a far larger problem with American public school. The entire system needs rebuilt, reworked, and replanned. I have lived in and attended many different public and private schools throughout the states, and nearly all of them (except for the private vocational college I attended) were severely lacking in qualified staff, updated materials, solid infrastructure, and, to be quite honest, caring at all in the true meaning of having an education and being a productive member of society. Lack of artistic appreciation is only a small side effect.

I have been extremely lucky; I was raised (and homeschooled for a time) by a mother, who happens to have a Master's Degree in the Humanities and has studied and been fascinated by art and culture her entire life. Most other kids aren't as fortunate, which is why most modern American children have no sense of culture or identity aside from what them and their little hoodlums come up with in thier free time to cause a ruckus.

[Ando!]

people currently prefer timbaland
you seem to think that's bad
why dont you just state a coherent position instead of retreating from literally everything

I don't think it's bad that timbaland is unpopular.
I do think it's bad that mozart isn't. (And I in no way mean popular in relation to timbaland or kanye or whatever, just that appreciation for such things appears to be at an all time low around here)

but equating "appreciation" to "popularity" isn't really what I intended.

ok

timbaland and mozart are both artists with distinctly different merits

having one in no way fills the need for the other

so ideally we want to live in a culture where both can be appreciated

For 'art music' (if you accept the term) to achieve appreciation it takes a bit of an academic agenda.

[Ando!]

i don't understand the basis for criticism against the united states in this thread

maybe it's different by state but here in oregon you are required to have 1-2 fine arts credits be it earned through band, orchestra, choir, or drama

i've never been in/around a school where the fine arts aren't encouraged



maybe my standards are too high, but in my hs (which admittedly was a very lowly-budgeted small-sized city school, and yours may have been different) I would have hardly said the music program in any way, shape, or form led students to be encouraged to appreciate the fine arts.

There was no such requirement in my school. But even if there was, there were not enough instruments to go around, none of the students were actually competent at the instrument they played, and the music was painfully at an elementary level. These kids in no way learned the merits of Haydn or Ellington or anything like that: this was especially apparent at a concert I attended where they absolutely slaughtered a bunch of John Williams excerpts. (Or even, Tway, they failed to achieve any real grasp on the more popular music they played like Stevie Wonder or Eric Clapton or Santana or something like that). It goes without saying that these kids really deserved better, and could have assuredly had a better experience in their musical pursuits.

[Ando!]

In regards to the original point of the thread.....

It is indicative of a far larger problem with American public school. The entire system needs rebuilt, reworked, and replanned. I have lived in and attended many different public and private schools throughout the states, and nearly all of them (except for the private vocational college I attended) were severely lacking in qualified staff, updated materials, solid infrastructure, and, to be quite honest, caring at all in the true meaning of having an education and being a productive member of society. Lack of artistic appreciation is only a small side effect.

I have been extremely lucky; I was raised (and homeschooled for a time) by a mother, who happens to have a Master's Degree in the Humanities and has studied and been fascinated by art and culture her entire life. Most other kids aren't as fortunate, which is why most modern American children have no sense of culture or identity aside from what them and their little hoodlums come up with in thier free time to cause a ruckus.

fair enough. Part of my reason for this thread is selfish: I'm a terrible musician, and had I chosen to pursue music in high school I wouldn't have gotten any better.

Maybe I'm just being an artsy fag, but I'd honestly rather have to learn how to improvise over rhythm changes or something rather than need to learn multiple-variable calculus in high school. idk, but I agree that public education in general is too easy.

[Apollyon]

maybe my standards are too high, but in my hs (which admittedly was a very lowly-budgeted small-sized city school, and yours may have been different) I would have hardly said the music program in any way, shape, or form led students to be encouraged to appreciate the fine arts.

There was no such requirement in my school. But even if there was, there were not enough instruments to go around, none of the students were actually competent at the instrument they played, and the music was painfully at an elementary level. These kids in no way learned the merits of Haydn or Ellington or anything like that: this was especially apparent at a concert I attended where they absolutely slaughtered a bunch of John Williams excerpts. (Or even, Tway, they failed to achieve any real grasp on the more popular music they played like Stevie Wonder or Eric Clapton or Santana or something like that). It goes without saying that these kids really deserved better, and could have assuredly had a better experience in their musical pursuits.

well it sounds like your school kind of sucked i was in the wind ensemble in high school which was the most advanced band available and it was awesome we took first place at pretty much every festival and parade ever

[Amit]

yea but wind ensemble isn't very indicative of higher cognitive capabilities in something like art

[Apollyon]

how so

[Amit]

same reasons why going to an african village for a couple weeks for your high school field trip doesn't make that class capable of understanding anthropology

they just went to an african village for a couple weeks

[Apollyon]

reaching much

i was in band for five and a half years i think i got a pretty good education in fine art

[Amit]

you could live in an african village for five and a half years and understand nothing about anthropology

just a lot about an african village

same goes for band and "fine arts education"

tbh this is all related with the thread i made earlier about education in america

[Apollyon]

not really but ok i will humor you because i'm leaving soon and don't have time to argue

all i can say is we studied the history of music, everything from beginner to advanced theory, how to compose, how to transpose from instrument to instrument, i played several different instruments during my time there, i can't even really begin to list everything we learned but i feel it was incredibly thorough

[FallingSnow]

fair enough. Part of my reason for this thread is selfish: I'm a terrible musician, and had I chosen to pursue music in high school I wouldn't have gotten any better.

Maybe I'm just being an artsy fag, but I'd honestly rather have to learn how to improvise over rhythm changes or something rather than need to learn multiple-variable calculus in high school. idk, but I agree that public education in general is too easy.

You had a point though; your reasoning may have been selfish but the issue is valid. I wanted to expand upon it a bit.


I don't know, I think both the music and calculus are equally important to being a contributing member of a cultural and productive society.

[RG560M]

We had enough arts in my old school, we need more in the way of the natural sciences and mathematics!

[Reaganista]

I don't think it's bad that timbaland is unpopular.

timbaland is popular...

I do think it's bad that mozart isn't. (And I in no way mean popular in relation to timbaland or kanye or whatever, just that appreciation for such things appears to be at an all time low around here)

youve said this several times but keep insisting that it doesnt imply you assigning objective value to mozart
it does
you can only think this is if you think mozart has some objective value that the music that people actually like is lacking


but equating "appreciation" to "popularity" isn't really what I intended.

ok

timbaland and mozart are both artists with distinctly different merits

neither has any objective merits at all
all they can provide is subjective entertainment value


so ideally we want to live in a culture where both can be appreciated

For 'art music' (if you accept the term) to achieve appreciation it takes a bit of an academic agenda.
ideally i want to live in a society where resources arent wasted on music that the market doesn't like and doesn't want

[Det_Nosnip]

lol. Market economics...applied to music appreciation!

[Reaganista]

market economics applies to everything

[AyatollahKhomeini]

Most other kids aren't as fortunate, which is why most modern American children have no sense of culture or identity aside from what them and their little hoodlums come up with in thier free time to cause a ruckus.

eww
thats kinda harsh man
elitism is ugly

fine art education might be lacking in the american public school system
but so is math, hard science, critical thinking, cross-cultural understanding and whatever else underimpressed you in hs. forcing kids to listen to chopin isn't going to fix society's problems.

[Ando!]

all they can provide is subjective entertainment value



uhh no

[Reaganista]

ok make an argument about for the objective value of music then

[Ando!]

idk maybe because students who take music lessons have statistically been shown to have improved cognitive function


you can only think this is if you think mozart has some objective value that the music that people actually like is lacking



no, it's apples and oranges

sure apples aren't better than oranges objectively, but I would rather live in a world with both

[Ando!]

not really but ok i will humor you because i'm leaving soon and don't have time to argue

all i can say is we studied the history of music, everything from beginner to advanced theory, how to compose, how to transpose from instrument to instrument, i played several different instruments during my time there, i can't even really begin to list everything we learned but i feel it was incredibly thorough

well it sounds like such a program is a healthy anomaly in a bad trend

[Reaganista]

no, it's apples and oranges

sure apples aren't better than oranges objectively, but I would rather live in a world with both
you do live a world with both

but notwithstanding that it's not apples and oranges because apples and oranges have different vitamins and nutrients in them
a more apt food comparison would be cherry coke vs. regular coke
if every school kid decides they like cherry coke better there's no reason to force them to drink regular coke

[Ando!]

I would like to live in a world where both are realistically prevalent okay stop nitpicking

if regular coke was statistically shown to improve spatial reasoning abilities then hell yes there is

[Reaganista]

I would like to live in a world where both are realistically prevalent okay stop nitpicking

ok how does your preference give you the right to dictate behavior to others


if regular coke was statistically shown to improve spatial reasoning abilities then hell yes there is
so you are arguing that mozart is objectively better then

[Ando!]

no I am not

just that it brings about certain benefits in spatial cognitive that pop music has not been shown to do

bread is healthier to eat than cake

stating such doesn't mean that I think bread inherently tastes better

but to extend the analogy: it IS worth forcing myself to eat healthy foods even if I don't find them to be as appetizing as other food

[Reaganista]

if you're not arguing it then any alleged benefits are irrelevant

[Ando!]

if you're not arguing it then any alleged benefits are irrelevant

how


bread is healthier to eat than cake

stating such doesn't mean that I think bread inherently tastes better

but to extend the analogy: it IS worth forcing myself to eat healthy foods even if I don't find them to be as appetizing as other food every single time i eat them

[Reaganista]

because if i were to believe the study then it would suggest that mozart is objectively better

since you have refused to claim that and i dont want to claim it we can disregard any evidence that would suggest otherwise for the sake of argument

[Ando!]

why does art music have to be better than pop music for me to think it is worth educating children in art music?

[Reaganista]

because if it's not then there's nothing to be gained

[BridgeToSolace]

so you are arguing that mozart is objectively better then

Could one say that it's objectively better to listen to Mozart than Kanye if one's goal in listening was to _______, which studies show listening to Mozart accomplishes?

[Reaganista]

if you believe in bogus studies sure

[Ando!]

because if it's not then there's nothing to be gained

did you read the cake analogy

[Ando!]

if you believe in bogus studies sure

and why are such studies bogus?

[Reaganista]

the cake analogy illustrates your misunderstanding of the situation
food hasmultiple purposes apart from nutrition
music's only purpose is aesthetic

and why are such studies bogus?
all the reasons any study might be bogus

[BridgeToSolace]

http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/150.asp

think of it what you will

[Reaganista]

uhh that study said silence is better...

In another replication, Nantais and Schellenberg (1999) found an improvement on spatial-temporal task performance after participants listened to a work by either Mozart or Schubert as compared to sitting in silence. A second study indicated that the benefit of the music condition disappeared when a narrated story replaced silence in the control condition. This study concluded that preference of the listener determines the effect. It seemed that the subjects performed better after listening to something they enjoyed. Nantais and Schellenberg also concluded that the Mozart effect really does not have anything to do with Mozart music, but what the subject likes or enjoys even if it is not classical.
that seems plausible but doesn't lend any support to the objective value of classical music

[BridgeToSolace]

uhh that study said silence is better...

Okay, whatever.

I'm not really taking a side here, it just annoys me when you argue with someone and they don't realize that you and he are arguing two different things.

And it doesn't help that you make no attempt clarify anything ever.

Probably because you'd rather make him look like an idiot than try and change his mind.

[Amit]

changing people's minds takes more time and is far less entertaining and satisfying

[BridgeToSolace]

Only if you're a dick.

[Reaganista]

idk if im ever arguing on here it's either purely to kill time or to bounce ideas ive had off of other people changing other people's minds is just a remote possibility that might happen along the way

[Ando!]

the cake analogy illustrates your misunderstanding of the situation
food hasmultiple purposes apart from nutrition
music's only purpose is aesthetic


no, CERTAIN types of art have been shown to improve cognitive function in other areas

[Ando!]

changing people's minds takes more time and is far less entertaining and satisfying

idk amit do i look like an idiot here i trust your opinion

i am drunk rite now

[defrabbi3000]

personally i think reaganista enjoys it :p.

Also you could take the view that early on in a childs education, just like they are introduced to a wide variety of sports so they can try to find one they like and can stick with, it could be beneficial for the child to be introduced to as wide a variety of arts as possible, they may find one they like and wish to pursue possibly brightening millions of people's day like the mona lisa has to people who appreciate it.

for the record im just suggesting this as an argument, i dont particularly care about the fine arts.

[Reaganista]

no, CERTAIN types of art have been shown to improve cognitive function in other areas
first no they havent

second that's evidence of a claim you've repeatedly refused to make for some reason

[Ando!]

just because it makes you smarter doesn't mean I have to think its better music, I don't know why you can't get over that

[FallingSnow]

Wait, where the hell is this argument going? I'm lost now.

[Ando!]

Wait, where the hell is this argument going? I'm lost now.

I basically started off saying we should devote more resources educating people in the fine arts so that America's appreciation of traditional western art (or even eastern art if we so chose) might recover from it's all time low

then tway was like "you're an elitist prick. academic art isn't objectively better than contemporary popular art"

and then I was like, "what"

[Reaganista]

just because it makes you smarter doesn't mean I have to think its better music, I don't know why you can't get over that
you can't think it's better while claiming you don't think it's better i dont know why you can't get over that

[Ando!]

how do I think it's better

identify that

[SnackaryBinx]

maybe we should just burn mTV and VH1, that'd improve a lot so far.

[Reaganista]

how do I think it's better
it makes you smarter
there

[Ando!]

uhh smarter =/= better

[Ando!]

especially when concerning the arts

like you would have to be much smarter, musically speaking, to understand a John Coltrane solo than you would have to be to understand an NSYNC melody

that doesn't make John Coltrane inherently better music

No music is objectively better than any other music but that doesn't mean no music requires an objective amount of greater cognitive capacity to rationalize

[Reaganista]

you said it makes you smarter not smarter people tend to like it

[Ando!]

you said it makes you smarter not smarter people tend to like it

well whatever

if it makes you smarter that doesn't make it better music

art isn't evaluated on the basis of whether it makes you smarter or not

[badtaste]

like you would have to be much smarter, musically speaking, to understand a John Coltrane solo than you would have to be to understand an NSYNC melody

I don't get this. What's to understand? Not everyone is a music scholar... heck, I don't even see the need to understand an NSYNC melody.

[Apollyon]

maybe we should just burn mTV and VH1, that'd improve a lot so far.

i don't get it is this a joke or are you trying to sound hip or something

mtv mostly just shows crappy teenage reality shows and vh1 shows classic concerts and music videos what do those channels have to do with anything

[fingers mccoy]

eh no one needs mozart

to be honest he's not really pertinent to the modern musical landscape

there are plenty of areas of study in classical music that are beneficial to modern musicians in a way that modern music isn't, but i think academia serves those kinds of discourse well enough

i think being involved in jazz is pretty useful for hip hop artists

[Reaganista]

if it makes you smarter that doesn't make it better
yes it does


music

art isn't evaluated on the basis of whether it makes you smarter or not
what youve been evaluating it on that basis all thread

[SnackaryBinx]

i don't get it is this a joke or are you trying to sound hip or something

mtv mostly just shows crappy teenage reality shows and vh1 shows classic concerts and music videos what do those channels have to do with anything

mostly just a joke. and I hate crappy reality shows. scratch that, I just hate reality shows.

[Ando!]

yes it does


what youve been evaluating it on that basis all thread

being made smarter and having subjective aesthetic value are two entirely different things

'more brainpowers' are to music what nutrition is to the culinary arts: it's a beneficial byproduct of certain works, but by no means the point to the making the work

[Reaganista]

if it actually makes you smarter like you say it does then it is better at making you smarter

this is moot since it doesnt actually make you smarter but that's irrelevant to whether or not you're claiming that it's better

it's true that if music's only purpose was aesthetics then no music would be better than any other
but you have suggested another purpose "more brainpowers" and have suggested that some music is better than other music at it

[RNR]

I think that deep contemplation and study of art makes you smarter. It doesn't matter which type of art it is, however some types are more likely to be considered and studied.

[Ando!]

if it actually makes you smarter like you say it does then it is better at making you smarter

this is moot since it doesnt actually make you smarter but that's irrelevant to whether or not you're claiming that it's better

it's true that if music's only purpose was aesthetics then no music would be better than any other
but you have suggested another purpose "more brainpowers" and have suggested that some music is better than other music at it

I'm suggesting 'more brainpowers' as a side-effect but not the ultimate purpose of the pursuit

but actually I'm going to take a new stance because now I think that's stupid: playing the trumpet might make you better at math but not as much as studying math does so who cares about that really

I think that we should teach a more eclectic curriculum including arts because eclecticism in itself is a benefit. This guy makes a nice metaphor:

http://www.artistshousemusic.org/videos/what+is+the+state+of+music+education+in+american+s ociety+today

"tent volume"

[Reaganista]

how is eclecticism in itself a benefit

[Ando!]

because the human mind is capable of doing more than math and language skills, and so we're letting our potential capacities go to waste if we don't explore other areas

"The human mind is not a dignified organ, and I do not see how we can exercise it sincerely except through eclecticism."

-E.M. Forster

[Reaganista]

ok assuming that's true how is music not one "area"

[Ando!]

um it is

[Reaganista]

one area as opposed to say 70 areas

[Ando!]

well yeah it'd be awesome to have that many choices

[Reaganista]

huh i dont follow

[Ando!]

maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "one as opposed to 70"?

[Reaganista]

music is one "area" like all music
instead of 70 different "areas" one for 70 different types of music 70 was just an arbitrary number it could be any number other than 1

[Ando!]

well yes I'm suggesting that we give kids more than one choice I wasn't saying a kid could study all music in one class

[Reaganista]

people can choose whatever they want it just happens that everyone choose t pain and timbaland

[Ando!]

yeah but we aren't offering t payne and timbaland in schools

[Reaganista]

if they're getting music outside of school why teach them music in school against their will

[Ando!]

by that logic why teach reading against their will when they can do it outside of school if they want

[Reaganista]

if they already know how to read then of course there's no point to teach them...

[Ando!]

clearly you're out of touch with city school literacy then

[Reaganista]

people who arent literate dont know how to read

[Ando!]

well yeah so suggesting we can't teach people in schools to read is dumb

as is with music

[mightygod]

people who arent literate dont know how to read

reading skill =/= reading skill

[Reaganista]

o ok
well yeah so suggesting we can't teach people in schools to read is dumb

you cant teach someone who knows how to read how to read

as is with music

you cant teach someone who knows how to hear how to hear

[Ando!]

you can certainly refine a person's ability to hear

[Ando!]

o ok

you cant teach someone who knows how to read how to read


you cant teach someone who knows how to hear how to hear

lots of people can't really read all that well

and you can always become a better reader

[Reaganista]

someone who knows how to read doesnt need to learn how to read if they do need to learn then they dont know how

[Ando!]

you're making the assumption that language skills are something you have or don't; that's not the case

[Reaganista]

yeah they are

[Ando!]

sorry but no

[Reaganista]

ok.

[RNR]

Do you mean to say that there are different levels of skill in language or perhaps that language skill is not something that can be be measured in on objective way? You should explain your comment, Ando.

[Ando!]

i mean there's more to language skill than being able to read/not able to read

you can learn to write better/worse, get a better grasp on grammar, expand vocabulary, etc

[Reaganista]

you have to know how to read first before you can do that other stuff

[RNR]

I'll agree. It's not simply how well you read.

[Ando!]

you have to know how to read first before you can do that other stuff

no that stuff is all part of being able to read

[Reaganista]

no it isn't reading is deriving words from sequences of letters

[Ando!]

well forgive my nomenclature then

reading by itself isn't very useful then is it

[Reaganista]

uh ya it is it's a prerequisite for all that stuff you mentioned

[Ando!]

reading by itself

[Reaganista]

by itself it is a prerequisite for all that stuff you mentioned

[Ando!]

no it's ****ing not if you take all that other stuff out of the picture


this is dumb and I don't know where i'm going with this I'm just sort of stream of consciousness arguing at this point