so who believes in ron paul

[kattunlover69]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04B3Wl2qouw

thats right man, who believes in isolationism

[Against Miik!]

Given all the things that happened last week, I think Ron Paul starts to sound less and less crazy.

[mph4ever]

ok, i've been caught, i am ron paul

[Smokey D]

Given all the things that happened last week, I think Ron Paul starts to sound less and less crazy.

Howzat? Ron Paul believes in a totally unregulated market, which is largely what caused this.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

Howzat?
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Vq7XH7lp8Sp/340x.jpg

I couldn't resist.

[McP3000]

I do believe that Ron Paul exists and that he is watching over all his children

[Der Übermensch]

He has some good ideas but he still scares me :-\

[Correction]

i believe in ron paul

[Kage]

im still gonna vote for him

[Mr. Ron]

I sort of kind of almost like some of his ideas.

[stevensonmat2]

I like some of his ideas, but I like his attitude the most.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm actually caught in between ideas at the moment. I like the idea of small government, but at the same time I see the advantages of a government thats more involved (Involved, not overly authoratative) with its citizens.

[beso negro]

some people act like ron paul would be the worst president ever. apparently they don't realize how close Palin could be to running this country.

i mean rly

[mph4ever]

i like anybody who suggests that america should head back into it's shell. we've had 100 years of interference, its about time they gave it a break

[stevensonmat2]

That's sort of my problem as well, ron. On one hand I support personal freedoms and liberties, but on the other I feel that inevitably our system of self-governance will evolve into what we might see as a totalitarian state. So when I support Ron Paul, I feel like I'm putting my temporary self-interests ahead of the interest of progress.

[Reaganista]

you guys are retarded

also as far as completely insane economic extremists go i think larouche comes out of this "economic crisis" looking better than ron paul who supports the polcies that caused it but w/e neither one of them matter and that's what makes america great among other things

[beso negro]

what? Clinton caused the economical problems we have today.

[Reaganista]

ok.

also plz put "problems" in "quotations" it's a more "accurate" characterization of the "situation"

[Mr. Ron]

no one person is responsible for economic problems.

[Reaganista]

economic "problems" you mean

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

gimmick is bad

[hismajestythepope]

im thinking i might vote for ron paul now, actually

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

any new account...
idk you could just be stupid

[Against Miik!]

Howzat? Ron Paul believes in a totally unregulated market, which is largely what caused this.

No actually government intervention is what caused it. Despite what everybody thinks, we hardly have a true free market.

[griftadan]

it's bad policy in both the private and public sector, if i'm not mistaken there was some push in the 90's to reshape lending regulations to encourage more lending and the cheap credit surge in the last few years only made it worse.

[guitrguy]

No actually government intervention is what caused it. Despite what everybody thinks, we hardly have a true free market.

explain plz

[Against Miik!]

The Fed is the start of the problem. I won't go so far as to say that the mere existence of the Fed is the problem, but their policies have been problematic. They keep interest rates artificially low when the market wants to push it the other way, and they are printing to much money, lowering the value of the dollar. I mean, we have a national debt that is upwards of hundreds of trillions of dollars, if you count derivatives. So where do we get 85 billion to bail out AIG, or any dime we spend for that matter? It's either printed or loaned, both are equally as problematic.

As for the housing market, it's easy to blame the whole thing on greedy capitalist investors, but in reality, its much more complicated than that. The artificially low interest rates had a lot to do with it. Also, the Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1995 I believe, basically forced banks to offer loans to the poor, saying they couldn't discriminate based on wealth.

Not only did government intervention cause this, but it also cannot fix this. Shoulder deep in debt, and we go and buy up half the mortgages in the United States. I mean come on.

[Iskandar]

I didn't buy it when the monetarists said government caused the Great Depression and I don't believe it now. Keynesian economies are more stable than so-called free market economies. The credit crunch is worst in America.

[guitrguy]

The Fed is the start of the problem. I won't go so far as to say that the mere existence of the Fed is the problem, but their policies have been problematic. They keep interest rates artificially low when the market wants to push it the other way, and they are printing to much money, lowering the value of the dollar. I mean, we have a national debt that is upwards of hundreds of trillions of dollars, if you count derivatives. So where do we get 85 billion to bail out AIG, or any dime we spend for that matter? It's either printed or loaned, both are equally as problematic. That's a bit speculative.
As for the housing market, it's easy to blame the whole thing on greedy capitalist investors, but in reality, its much more complicated than that. The artificially low interest rates had a lot to do with it. Also, the Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1995 I believe, basically forced banks to offer loans to the poor, saying they couldn't discriminate based on wealth. The completely excuses predatory lending. :rolleyes:

Not only did government intervention cause this, but it also cannot fix this. Shoulder deep in debt, and we go and buy up half the mortgages in the United States. I mean come on. you really didn't make a direct link.

[hismajestythepope]

its pretty accurate mang
No actually government intervention is what caused it. Despite what everybody thinks, we hardly have a true free market.

thank you!

[guitrguy]

its pretty accurate mang
I actually like to look for real arguments. you also say its accurate because its want you want hear. you could make the direct links too

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

is the fed really printing out too much money? if so that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. it didn't work in germany after WWI, it isn't working in zimbabwe now, and i don't see how any bunch of remotely intelligent people could try it in the states.

[guitrguy]

well we aren't on the gold standard any more.

[hismajestythepope]

I actually like to look for real arguments. you also say its accurate because its want you want hear. you could make the direct links too

the only reason you feel its innaccurate is because youve been herded into the whole 'super-intellectual-young-liberal-political-expert' bandwagon.

[guitrguy]

lol I'm convinced

[hismajestythepope]

you know im right. im an expert on these things.

[Iskandar]

is the fed really printing out too much money? if so that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. it didn't work in germany after WWI, it isn't working in zimbabwe now, and i don't see how any bunch of remotely intelligent people could try it in the states.Except the situation in the US is completely different from those examples because it isn't faced with hyperinflation and economic collapse.
Despite what everybody thinks, we hardly have a true free market.In the noble words of our beloved moderator, free markets don't exist.

[P13]

The US health system/economy is seriously ****ed

[McP3000]

yes, free markets dont exist, because it they are an ideal

[Iskandar]

yes, free markets dont exist, because it they are an idealYes.

[Against Miik!]

Yes we are printing too much money. That is what is devaluing the dollar. Thats economics 101. Printing more money devalues the currency.

Look at oil prices in terms of gold instead of the dollar. They have remained pretty flat while we see prices rising. I'm not making an argument for the gold standard there, I'm just sayin...

[P13]

look at Mugabe, what a moron

[Against Miik!]

Yeah thats just a cluster****.

People over there are paying like $6,000,000 for a bunch of bananas.

[P13]

6 000 000 Zimbabwe Pounds, different.
It's like Germany all over again

[808]

I think it would be pretty cool if we had to carry around huge packets of dollars to buy really cheap things like chewing gum.

[P13]

Then rappers would finally die from being crushed because they had too much money poured on them.

[Against Miik!]

http://annmorristaber.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/unknown.jpeg

lol

[Myrrhman]

mccain 08

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Except the situation in the US is completely different from those examples because it isn't faced with hyperinflation and economic collapse.

pretty much any country that starts relying on printing money to pay its debts is about to be faced with hyperinflation and economic collapse.

[Iskandar]

pretty much any country that starts relying on printing money to pay its debts is about to be faced with hyperinflation and economic collapse.That's ridiculous but okay.

[P13]

http://annmorristaber.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/unknown.jpeg

lol
weekly allowance

[Aaron]

I didn't buy it when the monetarists said government caused the Great Depression and I don't believe it now. Keynesian economies are more stable than so-called free market economies. The credit crunch is worst in America.
This x10,000,000,000 Zim-dollars.

[hismajestythepope]

In the noble words of our beloved moderator, free markets don't exist.
yeah because ****ing faggot governments keep ruining them

[griftadan]

I didn't buy it when the monetarists said government caused the Great Depression and I don't believe it now. Keynesian economies are more stable than so-called free market economies. The credit crunch is worst in America.

well the fed did basically cause the great depression because they were unable to respond to a stint of deflation with adequate liquidity which killed anyone with debt.

and america does practice keynesian economics so if you're trying to imply that we are more free market and that validates all keynesian theory that would be incorrect

is the fed really printing out too much money? if so that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. it didn't work in germany after WWI, it isn't working in zimbabwe now, and i don't see how any bunch of remotely intelligent people could try it in the states.

too much perhaps (at the time though we aren't, inflation is down and the dollar has regained ground on other currencies), but either comparing us to zimbabwe is absurd, they do it at a rate that can only result in hyper deflation where as we only do it to increase market liquidity at a time when it needs it

Yes we are printing too much money. That is what is devaluing the dollar. Thats economics 101. Printing more money devalues the currency.

Look at oil prices in terms of gold instead of the dollar. They have remained pretty flat while we see prices rising. I'm not making an argument for the gold standard there, I'm just sayin...

printing more money only devalues the dollar if it isn't done in proportion to the relative demand for money, it's entirely possible to print money and have the value of the currency still go up because not enough was printed to match a greater demand. oil in terms of gold probably hasn't changed much because the value of both are increasing because of global demand.

[Iscariot]

ron paul is like santa clause in the sense that he looks magical on paper and sounds great by word of mouth but after the initial magic wears off you realize he's just something people use as an example of how infectious ignorance and weightless ideals can be when introduced to a large number of impressionable people with underdeveloped brains

[griftadan]

theres some girl at my school who everyone hates because she literally friended everyone at the school network(+30k?) on facebook and spams everyone with messages about ron paul stuff

still

[Iscariot]

i would punch her in the snatch

[DekWannaBFlea]

Ron Paul needs to look up the tragedy of the commons, as well as other free marketers...

It seems to me the basis of Against Miik's argument is that we should get rid of anti-discrimination laws and the fed reserve because it cause this situation to happen. When all we needed was the proper over-sight committee to make sure that this **** didn't get out of control.

I am not going to argue that it was only the markets fault. It was the government's for not properly regulating the market, the investment banks for lending the money, and dumbass people who took the loan to pay for their mortage when they knew they couldn't pay it back.

[griftadan]

if that isn't an option via facebook, it needs to be

[hismajestythepope]

theres some girl at my school who everyone hates because she literally friended everyone at the school network(+30k?) on facebook and spams everyone with messages about ron paul stuff

still
sounds elite

[Smokey D]

No actually government intervention is what caused it. Despite what everybody thinks, we hardly have a true free market.

Sort of. As Griftadan says, it was a combination of bad policies in both the private sector and the government that led to this. It's never so simple as 'the Fed exists, therefore it causes any and all economic crises'.

The Fed is the start of the problem. I won't go so far as to say that the mere existence of the Fed is the problem, but their policies have been problematic. They keep interest rates artificially low when the market wants to push it the other way, and they are printing to much money, lowering the value of the dollar. I mean, we have a national debt that is upwards of hundreds of trillions of dollars, if you count derivatives. So where do we get 85 billion to bail out AIG, or any dime we spend for that matter? It's either printed or loaned, both are equally as problematic.


Printing money for the sake of printing money is bad. Printing money to preserve liquidity is not necessarily bad as long as it is done responsibly. Creating credit by writing a loan is not bad so long as the debt gets paid.


As for the housing market, it's easy to blame the whole thing on greedy capitalist investors, but in reality, its much more complicated than that. The artificially low interest rates had a lot to do with it. Also, the Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1995 I believe, basically forced banks to offer loans to the poor, saying they couldn't discriminate based on wealth.


This is true. Low interest rates facilitate easy credit, which can become toxic once companies realise how over exposed they all are and start calling in debts.


Not only did government intervention cause this, but it also cannot fix this. Shoulder deep in debt, and we go and buy up half the mortgages in the United States. I mean come on.

Well the alternative is the complete destruction of the American economy, so...


Look at oil prices in terms of gold instead of the dollar. They have remained pretty flat while we see prices rising. I'm not making an argument for the gold standard there, I'm just sayin...

Yeah. Commodity prices have gone up across the board so of course the ratio between them is going to remain steady. The same forces that drive up oil drive up gold and iron and diamonds and timber and any other commodity you want to talk about. Since they all move in a positive direction, they all remain roughly in line. It doesn't actually speak of the value those goods have.

pretty much any country that starts relying on printing money to pay its debts is about to be faced with hyperinflation and economic collapse.

Yeah but the Fed isn't printing money. It's buying up debts, and sitting on them.

[Against Miik!]

Printing money for the sake of printing money is bad. Printing money to preserve liquidity is not necessarily bad as long as it is done responsibly. Creating credit by writing a loan is not bad so long as the debt gets paid.

Responsibility and paying debts are not two things the government understands.

So I guess thats actually where pretty much every problem stems from.

Yeah. Commodity prices have gone up across the board so of course the ratio between them is going to remain steady. The same forces that drive up oil drive up gold and iron and diamonds and timber and any other commodity you want to talk about. Since they all move in a positive direction, they all remain roughly in line. It doesn't actually speak of the value those goods have.

Wouldn't the fact that they are all different commodities make that not true? I mean, gold is a relatively stable commodity. If oil weren't equally as stable, wouldn't the prices not fluctuate equally, the way they are?

Argument being, oil at this point is and has been a stable commodity, which would not seem to be the case if you looked at it in terms of dollars.

Btw, I heard that oil dropped close to or under $100 a barrel. It's not really in the news much after it started coming down and after the offshore drilling debate cooled off. If this is true, then why the hell am I still paying the same or more than I was when it was at $130 a barrel? I mean, I know why, its a rhetorical question.

[Smokey D]

yeah because ****ing large bundle of sticks governments keep ruining them

When Alex quotes me, I'm being a little inaccurate. It's not that there aren't free markets (plenty or markets are free or close enough to free) it's that they don't work like econ 101 says they should because they are free but flawed. They lack the other presumptions that make markets allocate resources perfectly, and as such the market is liable to fail. This is especially true in markets like finance which are hideously opaque, so people can't make correct judgments as to sound investments.

[griftadan]

Responsibility and paying debts are not two things the government understands.

So I guess thats actually where pretty much every problem stems from.


Wouldn't the fact that they are all different commodities make that not true? I mean, gold is a relatively stable commodity. If oil weren't equally as stable, wouldn't the prices not fluctuate equally, the way they are?

Argument being, oil at this point is and has been a stable commodity, which would not seem to be the case if you looked at it in terms of dollars.

Btw, I heard that oil dropped close to or under $100 a barrel. It's not really in the news much after it started coming down and after the offshore drilling debate cooled off. If this is true, then why the hell am I still paying the same or more than I was when it was at $130 a barrel? I mean, I know why, its a rhetorical question.

that assumption might be true if other commodities besides gold and oil are all rising congruently, they aren't though. core inflation (calculated by ignoring volatile food and energy prices) is still pretty low.

gold and oil are rising because of increased demand relative to supply, not because of the weakening dollar. every country in the world is having the same problems with energy prices.

[Smokey D]

Responsibility and paying debts are not two things the government understands.

That's not really true at all.

Wouldn't the fact that they are all different commodities make that not true? I mean, gold is a relatively stable commodity. If oil weren't equally as stable, wouldn't the prices not fluctuate equally, the way they are?

But the price of gold is rising because there's suddenly a lot more people wanting gold. Some of it can probably be attributed to inflation but most of it is a real increase in the value of gold. Gold is not that stable. In the 1970s gold was worth approximately $40/oz. It's now worth between $800 and $900/oz

Since the demand for both oil and gold have gone up at the same time we shouldn't be surprised that gold and oil maintain a relatively stable ratio.

Argument being, oil at this point is and has been a stable commodity, which would not seem to be the case if you looked at it in terms of dollars.

I don't get it.

[Against Miik!]

k I get it now.

God I hate economics.

[hismajestythepope]

economics is simple

[AKid2]

ron paul is good, but he's got it easy. its never that hard to look good as the underdog.

[Mr. Ron]

Ok can someone explain the FED to me? I hear its a culmination of privately owned banks and its unconstitutional.

[AKid2]

yes i would like to know as well.

[ringworm]

even though i seem to rally behind obama

sadly, i would so drop him if ron stood a chance at winning

[griftadan]

Ok can someone explain the FED to me? I hear its a culmination of privately owned banks and its unconstitutional.

not really unconstitutional

yes it's a culmination of 12 banks from different regions in the country, and they're quasi-government controlled as the board members are appointed by the president

they have a number of tools they use to control our currency

[Iskandar]

even though i seem to rally behind obama

sadly, i would so drop him if ron stood a chance at winningRon Paul and Obama are pretty radically different. Isn't it really his message that appeals to you rather than his ideology?

[Mr. Ron]

not really unconstitutional

yes it's a culmination of 12 banks from different regions in the country, and they're quasi-government controlled as the board members are appointed by the president

they have a number of tools they use to control our currency

isn't that sort of bad that private banks do that though?

[Smokey D]

They can't do whatever they want. They are directed by legislation.

[Mr. Ron]

The question I guess I have is: Is the FED good for our economy?


oh god I just sounded like Ron Paul :(

[Smokey D]

I would say it is better than having nothing, but it could probably be arranged better.

[griftadan]

probably, i'm actually less familiar with the actual structural of the fed and how it relates to the government than i'd like to be, my knowledge general only comes from how their policies effect macroeconomics

[Against Miik!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ticytEUvVhQ&eurl

omg ron paul saved us this morning.

Honestly guys people are starting to listen to him. He has been on basically every major cable news show in the past few weeks, conservative and liberal alike. Maybe it's just because he gets ratings, I dunno. But I'd like to think no.

Maybe complete abolishment of the fed and return to the gold standard is a bit much, but every time he speaks, he certainly seems to be more well versed on economic policies than either Obama or McCain, or most any other politician for that matter.

[McP3000]

heil ron paul

[griftadan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ticytEUvVhQ&eurl

omg ron paul saved us this morning.

Honestly guys people are starting to listen to him. He has been on basically every major cable news show in the past few weeks, conservative and liberal alike. Maybe it's just because he gets ratings, I dunno. But I'd like to think no.

Maybe complete abolishment of the fed and return to the gold standard is a bit much, but every time he speaks, he certainly seems to be more well versed on economic policies than either Obama or McCain, or most any other politician for that matter.

well just because he actually talks about monetary policy as opposed to everyone else doesn't make him right

[Already_Taken]

yeah he kinda contradicted himself in his speech, but i think he's right to a degree. he said there is too much regulation right now, then at the end he said there needed to be more oversight. maybe there is a difference i don't know about.

[McP3000]

Regulation=laws. Having a hand in whats going on
Oversight=Watching more carefully and preparing for things like this

[Smokey D]

They can go together, though. It might be appropriate to step in when overseeing bodies perceive a negative change.

[Raayl]

i support ron paul.

[AKid2]

Ron Paul seems a bit extreme to be pres. I guess most people thought that way anyway. I bet Obama/Paul 08 could have turned the whole goddamn world upside down.

[Already_Taken]

lol Paul has too many fringe supporters.

[Raayl]

Ron Paul seems a bit extreme to be pres. I guess most people thought that way anyway. I bet Obama/Paul 08 could have turned the whole goddamn world upside down.

yeah non interventionist foreign policy/sound money/immediate withdrawl from middle eastern countries we don't need to be fighting wars with/reducing the size of government/killing inflation/returning to the constitution

what a crazy douche he should be ashamed.

[Already_Taken]

it's not that he's crazy for his beliefs, he's crazy for thinking that we can turn the country around at this point. we're passed the point of no return. we should have made no permanent alliances. we should have never intervened anywhere, as george washington said before leaving office. at this point that is impossible.

[ringworm]

Ron Paul and Obama are pretty radically different. Isn't it really his message that appeals to you rather than his ideology?

i feel both would shake up the current infestation

only ron would shake harder

[McP3000]

it's not that he's crazy for his beliefs, he's crazy for thinking that we can turn the country around at this point. we're passed the point of no return. we should have made no permanent alliances. we should have never intervened anywhere, as george washington said before leaving office. at this point that is impossible.
this is slightly true, but this type of idiotic thinking could also be used to justify staying in Iraq longer.

I mean seriously, even if dont scale all the way down to the way we should, getting closer only helps.

[Doppelganger]

ron paul is a fictional character

[Already_Taken]

this is slightly true, but this type of idiotic thinking could also be used to justify staying in Iraq longer.

I mean seriously, even if dont scale all the way down to the way we should, getting closer only helps.

you're right but turning back would take longer than any of us will live, so yeah...

[McP3000]

and i want my country to live on after i die

so....wtf is your point

[Already_Taken]

ron paul is crazy

[McP3000]

yes

but he's also the sanest politician we have in America that ran for president

[mattspurplepen]

man dennis kucinich would kick ron paul's booty.
Reasons:

First off, Ron paul's social values/beliefs are pretty crappy.
secondly dennis has a super hot wife!
Thirdly Viggo Mortenson supported him. who doesn't like lord of the rings?

[mattspurplepen]

I forgot to mention- he has witnessed a UFO... boosted up in foreign policy- intergalactic relations.