Canadian Federal Election, 2008

[Iskandar]

The election was called yesterday. The date is set for October 14, 2008.

So which party do you support? What do you think the outcome will be?

[Iscariot]

you guys are just going to vote for whoever will keep giving you free drugs and more lumberjacks so who cares

;)

[Reaganista]

how many canadians still post here like 2 or 3 maybe

[hXcPLISIT]

you're definitely off.

[Iscariot]

well there's two in this thread i think that's aboot the extent of it

[pppoe]

I voted for Bloc Quebecois because I think secession movements are interesting.

[Reaganista]

you're definitely off.

who are you

[Already_Taken]

he's so fed up he might just move to the usa!

[pppoe]

If I were Canadian, I'd most likely vote Liberal Party.

[ahumantragedy]

Ndp

[Jude]

My dad's Canadian but I don't know a goddam thing about the politics up there

[spitfirejunky]

Bloc Quebecois because separatism is awesome.

[siva_chair]

Free Scotland.

[GUTS]

hahah canadians! o one cares! hahahaha

[DekWannaBFlea]

Could anybody explain what these parties are on the political spectrum? I could guess but there may be some key difference in Canadian politics compared to the U.S. And what are their platforms this election?

[RNR]

Could anybody explain what these parties are on the political spectrum? I could guess but there may be some key difference in Canadian politics compared to the U.S. And what are their platforms this election?

Ok, here you go

(my opinion) (economic and social)

------------N--------L--D---C-------R---------------------

R=American Republicans
D=American Democrats
C=Conservatives
N=NDP
L=Liberals

I know that only helps a little but that's based on last election and I still haven't read over the platforms and issues this year.

The green party is fairly left wing but they're a one issue environmental party. The Bloc is an obsolete one issue party based on the the the Quebec succession movement.

[Surtr]

NDP I'd have to say.

[pppoe]

Free Scotland.

If I were Scottish I would vote SNP.

[Iskandar]

Could anybody explain what these parties are on the political spectrum?The Conservative Party is center-right, the Liberals are centrist, and the NDP is center-left. The Bloc are Quebecois separatists and also center-left. The Greens are a bit harder to place because they're a new party and haven't won any seats yet.

The chief issues in this election are: economy, war in Afghanistan, and healthcare. As well as managerial ability and all of that.

[RNR]

The war in Afghanistan is no longer an issue. http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=61ae99fe-8acc-4083-915f-beeb26618469&k=9854

[pppoe]

When Iskandar says centre-left he actually means far-left.

[Iskandar]

The war in Afghanistan is no longer an issue. http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=61ae99fe-8acc-4083-915f-beeb26618469&k=9854Actually it very much still is, because the NDP, Bloc and Greens all want an immediate withdrawal if I'm not mistaken.

[RNR]

You mean that the NDP want out now?!? I'm going to change my mind about who to vote for because of a 2 year difference!

[Iskandar]

You mean that the NDP want out now?!? I'm going to change my mind about who to vote for because of a 2 year difference!Lol, it's about more than just the war. But it is an issue because it's never been that popular.

I'd say the biggest issue is the economy. The TSX fell by 4% yesterday.

[P13]

I didn't know that so many people would want to vote for NDP after they ****ed up Ontario all those years back

/canadian

[Iskandar]

The federal NDP under Jack Layton is a completely different vehicle than Bob Rae's Ontario NDP.

[P13]

I still wouldn't vote for them, don't like the platform/policies. What I find ridiculous is how they let them separatists be in the debates but not the green party

[Iskandar]

I will vote for them because I like their platform and policies.:)

The Green Party doesn't have enough seats to be an official party. But I still have no problem with them being in the debates.

[P13]

Oh, my bad, they NOW allow them to be in debates

[Iskandar]

I don't really care for the Greens, but more power to them. This is supposed to be a democracy.

[-1up!-]

/Québécois separatist

I dunno to whom my vote will go, but I'm fed up of conservatives. NDP has next to no chance of gaining any new seats in Quebec; Greens either, and the Liberal party leader is extremely unpopular in Quebec for a law he has written against Quebec separatism some years ago. In any case, I will not be voting FOR a party this election, but AGAINST one;

Either for Liberals because they're the only party which has a chance of gaining, at best, a minority government; or for the Bloc because they can keep Conservatives from having a majority government, and because they're probably gonna be elected in my county anyway.

I still wouldn't vote for them, don't like the platform/policies. What I find ridiculous is how they let them separatists be in the debates but not the green party

Maybe because Bloc has more seats in Parliament than Greens ever had (or ever will have, for that matter) ?

[Iskandar]

If you're a separatist anyway, why not vote Bloc? Strategic voting sucks. In the long run, it's better to vote for the party you actually support.

[apple pie]

as much as I hate Harper, he is better the Dion

[Reaganista]

the worst part about strategic voting is the implication that you think your vote matters

[808]

My vote counts.

[Reaganista]

doesnt mean it matters

[808]

It matters to me.

[Reaganista]

ok that's fine but it doesn't justify strategic voting

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

/Québécois separatist

Aside from being a Quebec separatist though, do you actually agree with the way the Bloc does things? Gilles Duceppe annoys the hell out of me, mostly because he makes these insane demands and then pretends to get outraged when nobody listens.

I think the more successfully the Bloc harrasses Ottawa, the worse it is for the sovereignty movement. Every time the feds appease the Bloc, the Yes vote loses 5% :p.



But yeah, I'm voting Liberal. Last election I didn't vote because all parties disgusted me, but I think the Liberals have made enough progress to be worth the 15 minute walk to the polling station. The Conservatives aren't an option for me because I disagree with them on just about every level, the Bloc isn't an option because their fundamental belief is that I don't belong in their country (bilingual anglophone Canadian-Quebecois-Italians in the house lemme hear you say what what), the NDP are a bunch of hippies, and I don't even know what the Greens stand for other than green-ness.

[keyboardxmosh]

and here is why canada is better than america... because people pay attention to more than two ****ing parties

[808]

and here is why canada is better than america... because people pay attention to more than two ****ing parties

Truth.

[Sleep]

i'm voting ndp in a riding that is overwhelmingly conservative. oh well.

[-1up!-]

Aside from being a Quebec separatist though, do you actually agree with the way the Bloc does things? Gilles Duceppe annoys the hell out of me, mostly because he makes these insane demands and then pretends to get outraged when nobody listens.

I think the more successfully the Bloc harrasses Ottawa, the worse it is for the sovereignty movement. Every time the feds appease the Bloc, the Yes vote loses 5% :p.

I'm fully in support of Quebec sovereignty but I find nothing extraordinary on Duceppe's and the Bloc's role in Ottawa. By default my vote would go to the Bloc, because I believe Quebec should be an independent country, but I'm not in admiration or anything towards the Bloc.



the Bloc isn't an option because their fundamental belief is that I don't belong in their country (bilingual anglophone Canadian-Quebecois-Italians in the house lemme hear you say what what), the NDP are a bunch of hippies, and I don't even know what the Greens stand for other than green-ness.
Wait what? The fundamental belief of the Bloc is that Quebec secede from Canada. Where did you get that idea that it's somehow xenophobic?

[Reaganista]

you dont secede from a country as an expression of love for the rest of the country

[RNR]

i'm voting ndp in a riding that is overwhelmingly conservative. oh well.

I know how you feel. I voted NDP in the Albertan provincial election :(

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

I'm fully in support of Quebec sovereignty but I find nothing extraordinary on Duceppe's and the Bloc's role in Ottawa. By default my vote would go to the Bloc, because I believe Quebec should be an independent country, but I'm not in admiration or anything towards the Bloc.
Do you think that voting for the Bloc advances Quebec towards sovereignty though? I think any productivity the Bloc has increases the number of undecided softies who look at Ottawa and go "maybe things are working after all".


Wait what? The fundamental belief of the Bloc is that Quebec secede from Canada. Where did you get that idea that it's somehow xenophobic?

I guess I spoke a little too harshly, but there is undeniably a ton of xenophobia in the sovereignist movement (not you specifically, you seem pretty cool, I'm talking about the hard-liners). The very idea that it's everybody else dragging Quebec down (hence the need for a country) is xenophobic; I don't think the Bloc is as bad as the PQ or Québec solidaire, but I still wouldn't want to live in a sovereign Quebec run by people who think like the Bloc.

This isn't a sovereignty thread so I'll try not to start anything, but I think Quebec's problems have a lot more to do with Quebec than the hundreds of millions of evil anglos/immigrants trying to assimilate it with TV, music and warped versions of history. The Bloc exists more to fight for Quebec interests at the federal level, which I'm not entirely opposed to, but I disagree with the way they get away with unrealistic demands simply because they know they'll never have the chance to govern. Aside from the once-every-couple-decades situation where there's a critical vote in a minority government and the Bloc has the balance of power, I think they're pretty much irrelevant.


I probably won't be online for at least the next day, but I'll catch up later.
you dont secede from a country as an expression of love for the rest of the country

yeah your insight on the issue is valued and intelligent thanks bye

[Reaganista]

are you suggesting that you do secede from a country as an expression of love for the rest of the country

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

are you suggesting that you do secede from a country as an expression of love for the rest of the country

I'm saying you're a moron who knows nothing about Canada, even less about Quebec, and absolutely sweet **** all about the independence movement, and everything you say is a knee-jerk reaction based on whatever ***-backwards interpretation of the world around you.

Secession is not in and of itself hostile or in any way negative to the country you're leaving. It can be cultural, a righting of historical wrongs; hell, it can even be amicable.

[-1up!-]

Do you think that voting for the Bloc advances Quebec towards sovereignty though? I think any productivity the Bloc has increases the number of undecided softies who look at Ottawa and go "maybe things are working after all".

No I don't think the Bloc advances sovereignty at all. If it ever comes, it's going to be triggered by the provincial government.

The Bloc was born in a time (after the Meech failure) where support to independance was above 50% and was initially supposed to subsist for a short time. Now that independance support is calm and quiet at around 40%, there is good reason to believe the Bloc is obsolete.

Now it just gathers symbolic votes of protestation from voters like me who don't care much about Canadian affairs.

I guess I spoke a little too harshly, but there is undeniably a ton of xenophobia in the sovereignist movement (not you specifically, you seem pretty cool, I'm talking about the hard-liners). The very idea that it's everybody else dragging Quebec down (hence the need for a country) is xenophobic; I don't think the Bloc is as bad as the PQ or Québec solidaire, but I still wouldn't want to live in a sovereign Quebec run by people who think like the Bloc.

This isn't a sovereignty thread so I'll try not to start anything, but I think Quebec's problems have a lot more to do with Quebec than the hundreds of millions of evil anglos/immigrants trying to assimilate it with TV, music and warped versions of history. The Bloc exists more to fight for Quebec interests at the federal level, which I'm not entirely opposed to, but I disagree with the way they get away with unrealistic demands simply because they know they'll never have the chance to govern. Aside from the once-every-couple-decades situation where there's a critical vote in a minority government and the Bloc has the balance of power, I think they're pretty much irrelevant.


I probably won't be online for at least the next day, but I'll catch up later.

Whoa just lots of ugly misconceptions on Quebec here. "Hardliners" are not a ton at all, and are a noisy minority most separatists are probably ashamed of. And I don't know what you've heard about the PQ and Québec Solidaire but I'm really curious because the PQ is your typical center-left party while QS is more leftist and progressive, but still a fringe party.

This xenophobia **** about Quebec's sovereignty movement has been grossly exaggerated in the rest of Canada, and that's something which has been going on for decades, even more so after Trudeau was Prime Minister. It's typical misunderstanding of the situation Quebec is in; the only french-speaking society surrounded by a sea of English language. To protect our culture from the assimilation of English America, there needs to be language laws, something which is not necessary at all anywhere else in America. Now, because we want to protect our culture, Quebecers have been depicted as xenophobic and intolerant of immgrants. Well **** that; overgrown misconceptions. I'm half black btw, and serious racism is not something I have encountered in my life here. I'm not criticizing you precisely, because I know there is a lot of crap being told about Quebec in the rest of Canada, and quite frankly, most of it is complete BS.

The major point separatists share for independence is not that anglos or immigrants are a problem of some sort. It's the shared belief that Quebec has all the tools it needs - including in economic development -to develop and prosper on its own. Quebec and the rest of Canada have been quarelling for ages. Look at what the Bloc is doing; ****ing nothing but complain, which makes us look like really bad, and it just hinders Canadian democracy as a whole. I feel both Canada and Quebec would be better off if Quebec got out of the federation.

[Smokey D]

I think separatist Quebecois grossly overstate the assimilationist threat. Quebec has a Francophone population of 6-7million, a critical mass of self-perpetuating non-English speakers who don't really need sovereignty to protect the language and culture. If the population was moribund maybe there'd be a case but it's vibrant and largely self-replicating. Perhaps if Quebec was fighting assimilation from the Anglophone United States there'd be a greater threat, as 7 million vis a vis 300 million is certainly a lot less equal than 7 million against 20 million. However, I don't really think it's fair to paint it as Quebec vs all of Anglophone North America because Canada is also resisting US cultural imperialism. From the outside, when people start using the argument that 'French Canada is under threat', it often reeks of xenophobic or at least obscenely nationalistic motivations in the same way that people who say south-west America is under threat from the Spanish speaking population. People like Jacques Parizeau don't really help that perception.

Which is not to say there aren't good and compelling reasons to support a sovereign Quebec.

[siva_chair]

Who in their right mind would want to resist US culture it is ****ing awesome?

[Iscariot]

who in their right mind would associate themselves with a separatist movement knowing that it will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever happen

[McP3000]

okay at first i thought this was a total troll thread

then i read it and there is a serious discussion about Canada.

so now i know its a troll thread.

[siva_chair]

who in their right mind would associate themselves with a separatist movement knowing that it will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever happen

2 b a r3bull duh

[808]

Who in their right mind would want to resist US culture it is ****ing awesome?

It's not.

[siva_chair]

Of course it is that is why culture is probably the US's biggest export.

[808]

Canadians don't like it, so leave them alone.

[siva_chair]

They sure watch a lot of US television programming, watch a lot of US films, listen to a lot of US music, eat plenty of US fast food, shop at US corporate chains, and buy lots of other US items of pop culture for not liking it.

[-1up!-]

I think separatist Quebecois grossly overstate the assimilationist threat. Quebec has a Francophone population of 6-7million, a critical mass of self-perpetuating non-English speakers who don't really need sovereignty to protect the language and culture. If the population was moribund maybe there'd be a case but it's vibrant and largely self-replicating. Perhaps if Quebec was fighting assimilation from the Anglophone United States there'd be a greater threat, as 7 million vis a vis 300 million is certainly a lot less equal than 7 million against 20 million. However, I don't really think it's fair to paint it as Quebec vs all of Anglophone North America because Canada is also resisting US cultural imperialism. From the outside, when people start using the argument that 'French Canada is under threat', it often reeks of xenophobic or at least obscenely nationalistic motivations in the same way that people who say south-west America is under threat from the Spanish speaking population. People like Jacques Parizeau don't really help that perception.

No actually in Montreal the portion of the population which speaks French is on a constant decline; several reports from both independent and governement-run organisms have shown this and led to quite a social debate earlier in 2008.

But the argument of "culture under threat", like you say, is not my main point for sovereignty, nor is it the main point of most separatists. It is simply that Quebec, as a distinct society from the rest of Canada, should have all the power to settle its own affairs. It is true that Jacques Parizeau, although popular among older separatists, has made some stupid declarations and I'd wager most separatists of my age do not feel that close to him ideologically.

On a more poli-sci level, public debates in the past two years have shown that the politics of multiculturalism, which reign in Canada, are ill-suited to and mildly accepted in Quebec, where a French republican conception of societal integration is still vigorous - as opposed to the Anglo-saxon liberal integration model, a clear British heritage. I'm not gonna go deeper into this now but I will if you want to.

Edit: oh and to say that Canada is resisting US culture imperialism makes me lol. Same goes for Quebec, but then again language barrier makes it less obvious here. Still, a significant part of the media entertainement here, especially movies, are from the US; we don't have Wal-Marts as big as there are in the US, but they flourish, same goes for McDonalds and a lot of fast-food chains. (No Taco Bells here though, which is somewhat sad)

We sure do resist political and religious culture; all the US's conservatism and Gods and guns and SUVs are looking increasingly retarded from a Quebec perspective. But idk really about the rest of Canada; from my perspective there is a lot in common between Canadian and American culture, but what do I know? Canada's not my country.

[siva_chair]

The South had a strikingly similar argument for secession during the American Civil War.

[-1up!-]

I believe it is quite a classic argument for most secessionist movements actually.

[Jude]

The South had a strikingly similar argument for secession during the American Civil War.

...well, the south had every right to secede

If slavery hadn't been such a central issue there would have been no moral justification for the north whatsoever and even with that, it's debatable

[siva_chair]

I wasn't saying they didn't have a right. I was just drawing a parallel.

[Jude]

i Wasn't Saying They Didn't Have A Right. I Was Just Drawing A Parallel.

Ok.

[Reaganista]

the south had no right whatsoever to secede for any reason the constitution binds them to the union
they had the right to move to change the constitution they failed and that's where their right to recourse ended seceeding after that was an act of war

I'm saying you're a moron who knows nothing about Canada, even less about Quebec, and absolutely sweet **** all about the independence movement, and everything you say is a knee-jerk reaction based on whatever ***-backwards interpretation of the world around you.

Secession is not in and of itself hostile or in any way negative to the country you're leaving. It can be cultural, a righting of historical wrongs; hell, it can even be amicable.

no it can't it's an inherently an act of aggression against the country at large

[siva_chair]

the south had no right whatsoever to secede for any reason the constitution binds them to the union
they had the right to move to change the constitution they failed and that's where their right to recourse ended seceeding after that was an act of war

Then there is that viewpoint.

[Reaganista]

**** the south man i was on jefferson davis boulevard last weekend where the **** do they get off naming a road after that guy

[Already_Taken]

he's part of history? i don't see why a street being named after someone is that big of a deal, especially when he played a major role in the history of our country.

[Reaganista]

youre not supposed to name roads in america after people who are infamous
especially people who are infamous for things like treason and making war against america

[Already_Taken]

haha...

well i can certainly empathize with the south at the time.

[Reaganista]

at the time of secession?
that's ridiculous there's no point in having laws if states can just opt out whenever they get an adverse decision

[Already_Taken]

but it wasn't just overnight and a snap reaction. tension between the north and south had been escalating for years. and slavery was undeniably the heartbeat of the south, and even the country.

[Reaganista]

that's why they decided to break the law that doesnt make it legal for them to do

[RNR]

They sure watch a lot of US television programming, watch a lot of US films, listen to a lot of US music, eat plenty of US fast food, shop at US corporate chains, and buy lots of other US items of pop culture for not liking it.

I don't do any of that. I guess I'm not very Canadian :D

I wish I could take the economic and foreign policy of the conservatives and fuse it with the social and environmental policy of the NDP. Oh, and Harper's head on Layton's body with Layton's mustache <3

[siva_chair]

I don't do any of that. I guess I'm not very Canadian :D

I wish I could take the economic and foreign policy of the conservatives and fuse it with the social and environmental policy of the NDP. Oh, and Harper's head on Layton's body with Layton's mustache <3

So you only watch Canadian TV and listen to Candian music and watch Canadian movies?

Sorry, but....lame. :D

[Jude]

that's why they decided to break the law that doesnt make it legal for them to do

What

It was totally legal for them to secede

[Iskandar]

I wish I could take the economic and foreign policy of the conservativesNo both are completely gross.

[808]

Communist scum.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Whoa just lots of ugly misconceptions on Quebec here. "Hardliners" are not a ton at all, and are a noisy minority most separatists are probably ashamed of. And I don't know what you've heard about the PQ and Québec Solidaire but I'm really curious because the PQ is your typical center-left party while QS is more leftist and progressive, but still a fringe party.

There are enough of them for them to influence the sovereignty movement, and that's enough for me to be scared off. Every time a moderate (think André Boislcair) starts leading the PQ towards level-headedness, the radicals tear them down.

When Boisclair was running for PQ leadership I was actually thinking of voting PQ even though I'm not a separatist just because he seemed so damn reasonable. As soon as the hard-liners sunk their teeth into him he started shifting his beliefs (or at least his policy) to the point where he wasn't even recognizable.

In terms of left-right spectrum, you're right, Quebec's sovereignist parties are quite moderate. I find the PQ too soft on welfare bums, labour, and a few other issues, but those are pretty minor. That's not at all what I'm talking about though.

This xenophobia **** about Quebec's sovereignty movement has been grossly exaggerated in the rest of Canada, and that's something which has been going on for decades, even more so after Trudeau was Prime Minister. It's typical misunderstanding of the situation Quebec is in; the only french-speaking society surrounded by a sea of English language. To protect our culture from the assimilation of English America, there needs to be language laws, something which is not necessary at all anywhere else in America. Now, because we want to protect our culture, Quebecers have been depicted as xenophobic and intolerant of immgrants. Well **** that; overgrown misconceptions. I'm half black btw, and serious racism is not something I have encountered in my life here. I'm not criticizing you precisely, because I know there is a lot of crap being told about Quebec in the rest of Canada, and quite frankly, most of it is complete BS.


Now that sovereignty is a less and less popular idea it isn't so bad, but a few years ago there were paranoid PQ speeches/press releases/whatever every couple weeks about this and that, and how it's all the immigrants' or the anglos' fault. Do you know how sickening to be born somewhere, speak both languages fluently, and still be seen by a political party as not really a Quebecer because I speak English at home? I would not feel safe in a sovereign Quebec run by people with the mindset that all their problems are due to evil anglos such as myself. Lately the PQ has been trying to seem less intolerant, but they let enough slip for me to be convinced the only thing that's changed is their marketing strategy.

Truth is, the decline of French has infinitely more to do with Quebec's francophone population (low birthrate, very little cultural emphasis on speaking proper French, etc.) than on what language immigrants choose to speak when they get here. The birthrate for Québécois couples on the island of Montreal is 1.2 children per family. How the hell are you supposed to sustain a culture when you need at least one immigrant per child born just to maintain the population? There's far too much emphasis on blaming a lack of assimilation, and not enough on what Québécois should be doing for themselves. Legislated assimilation will do nothing if Quebecers don't help themselves first.

I agree in the necessity of some mechanism to preserve the French language in Quebec, and I think everybody here should make an effort to at least learn passable French. I just don't think it's the only possible way to preserve culture, or that it's even the best. I went to a French high school because I love living here and saw that speaking perfect English and French would put me at a huge advantage over everyone else. A lot of the rules are ineffective and downright discriminatory.

I think the main point we disagree in is that I think Quebec culture does a lot more damage to itself (Les Cowboys Fringants are a perfect example... the pride and joy of Quebec rock music doesn't even use the French word for cowboy :p) than the rest of North America does. Sovereignty wouldn't fix this, it would just scare off even more of the immigrants Quebec needs so much.

Oh, and on the racism comment - every society has its morons, but what scares me isn't the idiot who tells me I should speak French with my anglo friends, it's the government that sees English is something to be weeded out through legislated assimilation.

The major point separatists share for independence is not that anglos or immigrants are a problem of some sort. It's the shared belief that Quebec has all the tools it needs - including in economic development -to develop and prosper on its own. Quebec and the rest of Canada have been quarelling for ages. Look at what the Bloc is doing; ****ing nothing but complain, which makes us look like really bad, and it just hinders Canadian democracy as a whole. I feel both Canada and Quebec would be better off if Quebec got out of the federation.

The way I see it, the issue of sovereignty is basically two issues - cultural and economic. I agree completely that Quebec is culturally different enough to warrant sovereignty, but I disagree on the necessity of it. There's nothing wrong with a country that has two (or more) cultures peacefully coexisting within it, and for all the bickering, Canada is one of the most peaceful countries on the planet.

The other issue, economics, basically comes down to whether or not Quebec's long-term economic health would be better or worse without the rest of Canada. Most neutral (or relatively neutral, seeing as you can never get complete neutrality from someone who actually knows anything about the situation) economic evaluations tend to say that Quebec would go through a rough period for a few years and eventually end up stabilizing at or slightly below where it is now. I'm all for fixing the fiscal imbalance, but I don't see how everyday life of your average Quebecer would be any better 20 years after separation.

I don't mean to cry about the oppression of us poor little anglos, but the constant erosion of rights whenever the PQ is in power legitimately scares me. I like having the feds around to make sure things don't get worse.


disclaimer - I don't mean to let anglos off the hook completely either. I think that to be born and raised in Quebec and not be able to order a hamburger in French is completely inexcusible. Everybody should do what they can to make sure their French is at least good enough for them never to force a francophone to speak English to them. I also think, however, that it's stupid for a francophone to refuse to learn English on the basis that she or he has the divine right to be spoken to in French. If you live in Abitibi, there's no point in learning English, and people visiting the area should not expect someone to be able to speak to them in English. On the flip side, if you live in Montreal, it shouldn't offend you that when you go to an Irish pub on Crescent street the waitress assumes you're English and greets you in English. Common sense over indignant principles any day. (I say "you" generally, not you in particular)

[Reaganista]

What

It was totally legal for them to secede
no it wasnt it was in fact totally illegal in the most literal interpretation of the word

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

On a more poli-sci level, public debates in the past two years have shown that the politics of multiculturalism, which reign in Canada, are ill-suited to and mildly accepted in Quebec, where a French republican conception of societal integration is still vigorous - as opposed to the Anglo-saxon liberal integration model, a clear British heritage. I'm not gonna go deeper into this now but I will if you want to.


I just saw this. How can you say sovereignty is not xenophobic when Quebec's answer to multiculturalism is, as you put it, stripping newcomers of their culture?

[Kill Everything V2]

the only french-speaking society surrounded by a sea of English language.

no nb is officially bilingual

[Smokey D]

No actually in Montreal the portion of the population which speaks French is on a constant decline; several reports from both independent and governement-run organisms have shown this and led to quite a social debate earlier in 2008.

Hasn't Montreal always been the centre of Quebec's Anglophone population? Even if it is true that the proportion of Francophones in Montreal is declining, it doesn't follow that Quebecois culture is under threat from Anglophone dominance. The political and economic structure of Quebec has, it seems to me, since the Quiet Revolution strongly favoured the Francophone population and this does not seem to be in any jeopardy.

On a more poli-sci level, public debates in the past two years have shown that the politics of multiculturalism, which reign in Canada, are ill-suited to and mildly accepted in Quebec, where a French republican conception of societal integration is still vigorous - as opposed to the Anglo-saxon liberal integration model, a clear British heritage. I'm not gonna go deeper into this now but I will if you want to.

I assume you mean how in France immigrants are required to adopt French citizenship at the expense of their own national identities but in Anglo areas (allegedly, although I think in most places it doesn't work in practice; Canada possibly being an exception) immigrants are encouraged to adopt their new citizenship alongside their national identity.

Edit: oh and to say that Canada is resisting US culture imperialism makes me lol. Same goes for Quebec, but then again language barrier makes it less obvious here. Still, a significant part of the media entertainement here, especially movies, are from the US; we don't have Wal-Marts as big as there are in the US, but they flourish, same goes for McDonalds and a lot of fast-food chains. (No Taco Bells here though, which is somewhat sad)

Resisting cultural imperialism was perhaps the wrong way to phrase it. Maintaining their own national and civic identity even while adopting the features of American popular culture is probably a more accurate way of describing it.

We sure do resist political and religious culture; all the US's conservatism and Gods and guns and SUVs are looking increasingly retarded from a Quebec perspective. But idk really about the rest of Canada; from my perspective there is a lot in common between Canadian and American culture, but what do I know? Canada's not my country.

From my understanding, most Canadians hate the US's conservatism, religiosity, guns and SUVs. In some very important ways, there's probably more similarity between Quebec and Anglo Canada than between Anglo Canada and most of the US.


Quebec, from the way you and and Free Thinkers describe it, sounds like a very strange place. It seems to inhabit a limbo in the political spectrum, caught between the progressive liberalism (in US political terminology) of a robust welfare state and dirigisme and the reactionary conservatism inherent in the quest for national identification and preservation.

[Sk0rpi0n]

I will be voting NDP in the federal election because my riding has been NDP (Paul Dewar, Ottawa Center) for quite some time. Thus a Liberal or Green vote would be wasteful.

Other than that, I find the NDP's cap and trade stance on carbon emissions favorable too the Liberal/Green party plan to impose a so called "tax neutral" carbon tax. Although both of these parties pretend that the plan is neat and tidy, such a restructuring of a functioning tax system will have unintended consequences which may have dire consequences at a time when Canada's economy appears to be recession bound.
A vote for the Conservatives on environmental issues is of course, a vote to do nothing, as their so called "intensity based targets" are tailor made to allow companies to up production while also increasing emissions.

As for economic planning, the NDP earns my vote because there plan is to tax the rich. Despite what many economists and people on the right side of the spectrum say, lowering taxes on the wealthy does not benefit everybody through increased investment and economic stimulation. The chief idea behind this "supply side economics" approach is that a rising tide lifts all ships, however, if you look at the American example, tax cuts for the rich in the Reagan/Bush Sr era and Bush Jr. era, one will find that both have lead to economic recession, increases in poverty, massive budget deficits and increases in foreign direct investment rather than domestic investment. So why not tax the rich more heavily and guarantee that the tax revenue be invested in domestic markets, rather than relying on the notion that the richest 5% are somehow morally and financially inclined to do so? If we look at the examples of Norway/Denmark, Sweden and Finland, we see that heavy taxation of the rich does not scare off all foreign activity, nor does it create mass unemployment. Rather, it creates an environment in which education systems flourish, health care becomes the best and most universal in the world and people are pulled out of the poverty cycle. In all of these countries unemployment also remains steady between 5%-8%.

As for other issues such as Afghanistan, Health Care, Fighting Poverty, Protection of Consumers etc. the NDP also has similar ideas which I agree with. So why not vote for them? Recent polls have showed their support at 21-23% which is very close to the Liberals margin of 24-26%, meaning they do stand a real chance at making a go of being the official opposition. They also stand to gain a lot from the Bloc Quebecois' loss of support, as both parties have very similar leanings on social policy (both sit Center-left to Left).

So don't be that cynical when casting a ballot for the NDP or Greens, both parties have a large opportunity to make real gains from voter disenchantment with the Conservatives and the Liberals. And besides, whatever party you vote for gets $1.75 in funding from elections Canada towards their next election campaign, so vote for the party you support, not against the party you hate!

Sk0rpi0n

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Hasn't Montreal always been the centre of Quebec's Anglophone population?

Sort of. It used to be the economic powerhouse of Quebec, and because most things were owned by anglophones it was on the surface predominantly English, even though most of the population was in fact French. It wasn't a fair situation at all in terms of money/power distribution, and it wasn't righted until the Quiet Revolution in the 60's, when francophone Quebecers began to realize they didn't have to put up with it.

From what I know (I don't have any francophone relatives who were around back then to tell me about it), it was never outright oppression, but it was always some sort of cross between flagrant insensitivity and bullying.

Even if it is true that the proportion of Francophones in Montreal is declining, it doesn't follow that Quebecois culture is under threat from Anglophone dominance. The political and economic structure of Quebec has, it seems to me, since the Quiet Revolution strongly favoured the Francophone population and this does not seem to be in any jeopardy.

It is true that the proportion of francophones is declining in Quebec, but not because of a rise in English - English is actually declining even faster than French. I think the main languages that are increasing are Arabic and Chinese, but I could be wrong. Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous post, the decline in French has more to do with a ridiculously low birthrate on the island of Montreal.

The eternal question in Quebec is how much to try to force new immigrants to learn French. If you're don't already know them, I can go into the rules about who can and can't send their kids to English schools, but the gist of it is that the first generation of immigrants might not speak French, but their kids will.


Quebec, from the way you and and Free Thinkers describe it, sounds like a very strange place. It seems to inhabit a limbo in the political spectrum, caught between the progressive liberalism (in US political terminology) of a robust welfare state and dirigisme and the reactionary conservatism inherent in the quest for national identification and preservation.


Haha, you have no idea. I've lived here my whole life and I'm still wrapping my head around it.

I think things have gotten better in the last couple years though. Maybe people are finally chilling out. I think English people have finally accepted that they're better off learning French if they want to stick around and as a result Francophones aren't hypersensitive about the presence of English.

[808]

Everyone should be required to speak French.

[EaterOfUterus]

Everyone should be required to speak French.

Non tu es un dum-dum

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Everyone should be required to speak French.

Propose a mechanism through which to test and enforce this and I'll tell you why you're going against the UN and Canada's charters of human rights.

[808]

Who cares? Either they learn to speak French, or they get marched back onto the boats and sent the **** back to wherever they came from.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Who cares? Either they learn to speak French, or they get marched back onto the boats and sent the **** back to wherever they came from.

if they're productive members of society but don't learn french, do you really think society is better off without them?

Your attitude is part of why Quebec bleeds brains. Do you have any idea how many brilliant international students come to Quebec for their education and gtfo because staying here is just too much of a pain in the arse? You can't have the attitude that they should work twice as hard to stay here as they would to stay anywhere else, because then all the smart ones leave.

[808]

Too bad.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Too bad.
It's a pity people like you aren't the ones being deported.

[Surtr]

So has anyone checked out all the stuff going on now?

Conservatives have decided to make their big tax cut plan, 22% to 17% by 2012. But the NDP has come up with the plan to keep taxes where they are, and use the money that they have from that to put towards their plans. They've also decided to use the money coming from the War and stuff should we pull out (If they take control) and that stuff towards their goals too. And of course, Stephan Dion replied to it all by struggling to speak English.

[Iskandar]

The NDP wants to reverse Harper's corporate tax cuts, which I am strongly in favour of.

I've heard the NDP are making strong gains, the Liberals are faltering, and the Bloc and Greens have equally low support.

[-1up!-]

Quebec, from the way you and and Free Thinkers describe it, sounds like a very strange place. It seems to inhabit a limbo in the political spectrum, caught between the progressive liberalism (in US political terminology) of a robust welfare state and dirigisme and the reactionary conservatism inherent in the quest for national identification and preservation.

Yes, on social issues the mainstream of politics in Quebec is pretty progressive (except on language but I'll come back to that), and government is indeed of the welfare type, although I wouldn't say near dirigisme. The only real trait of conservatism found here is about our language and culture, which are more heavily defended here than in the rest of Canada, i believe.

Harper's decision to cut down government funding of art and culture was most badly received in Quebec than anywhere else, I think. A journalist stated his hypothesis that culture was more important to Quebecers because cultural icons are local; I agree. For obvious linguistic reasons, Quebecers are in contact with more Quebec culture than Canadians with canadian culture, simply because American media don't have to overcome a language barrier to reach the Canadian market.

The NDP wants to reverse Harper's corporate tax cuts, which I am strongly in favour of.

I've heard the NDP are making strong gains, the Liberals are faltering, and the Bloc and Greens have equally low support.

The Bloc are actually holding their ground in Quebec. Some predicted a conservative tidal wave over the province but the faltering of Liberals benefits more to the NDP and Bloc than to conservatives. (Btw, comparing Bloc and Green support on the scale of the whole country is missing the point)

There is a commonly shared fear of a majority conservative party here. Some public NGOs are wishing for voters to vote for whoever will keep a conservative from getting a seat.

[Iskandar]

Good point about the Bloc's support being concentrated in Quebec. 9% support won't get the Greens many seats nationwide (if any) but it will get the Bloc a lot in Quebec. And though I'm federalist-leaning I respect the Bloc and how they stand up to the Conservatives.

If the House has a decent amount of NDP and Bloc seats, the Conservatives won't be able to push their right-wing ideology as easily. That's what I'm banking on. And screw the Liberals.

[Surtr]

Exactly man.

NDP won't win this election, but know what, we've got a proper chance to hold the conservatives to an interesting situation. The Liberals are so ****ed and the Conservatives have lost a lot of votes over this whole arts thing. I know at my Uni. there's going to be a huge Protest about the cut to funding for the Arts that the Conservatives have set up. I just wish we can get Layton in Office and Harper out.

[Cellophane]

Canada has elections?

[Iskandar]

As of now I'm thinking the result will be another Conservative minority. The Liberals will lose some seats, the NDP will gain some and the Bloc will hold its own. The Greens will have a negligible influence, maybe winning a seat or two at best.
Canada has elections?Canada has far more competitive elections than the United States. Go away.

[Reaganista]

voting is pointless in canada too

[Iskandar]

I can't wait to vote next week! My first federal election, it's so exciting!

[Reaganista]

that's irrational

[Iskandar]

that's irrational:):)

I love voting! I vote every time there's an election.

[Reaganista]

i read my horoscope and only vote if it says i should!

[Surtr]

As of now I'm thinking the result will be another Conservative minority. The Liberals will lose some seats, the NDP will gain some and the Bloc will hold its own. The Greens will have a negligible influence, maybe winning a seat or two at best.

I dunno' man, maybe its just because of the type of people I hang out with, and stuff but the majority of the people I know are voting NDP. And I mean hey, of course you have to take in account all across Canada too, but I can name 4 friends I know voting Conservative, 2 voting Liberal, 15-20 voting NDP and 1 voting Green (lol).

I don't expect NDP to win it. But I do think they should be doing better than a lot of people are predicting. But hey, like I said, that could definitely just be my demographic of friends.

And I can't vote yet, I'm pissed. I'm off by not even a full month for this election. :(

I know the whole your one vote doesn't make a difference stuff is essentially true, but I'd still feel better knowing that I got to contribute to something I've been going on about. I've convinced a few friends to at least listen to some speeches on youtube and to read up on the platforms and stuff and I've converted a few "dead set" Conservatives to new NDP supporters.

Its odd, I used to be of the opinion NDP are useless and that Canada was still essentially a 2 party system, like a lot of people still seem to be, but I was dragged along to an NDP Rally nearby where Jack was speaking and I realized that I actually really liked their ideas and stuff. I dunno', I just feel a lot of people still aren't going to vote NDP because they're stuck in that feeling that its essentially Conservative or Liberal and they're just poorly informed about politics.

[Iskandar]

The NDP have stronger support among young voters. Also in urban areas.

It's too bad you can't vote.

[Surtr]

Mhm yeah true true.

And yeah, I dislike it. Especially when I know of friends who aren't even going to vote.

[Iscariot]

i'm not canadian but tell me which is the least popular option in the poll and i'll vote for it

[Anglachel]

i'm not canadian but tell me which is the least popular option in the poll and i'll vote for it
vote green lol

[Iscariot]

lol done

[Iskandar]

Conservative

[Surtr]

Conservative is definitely the gay option.

[Iskandar]

I assumed the result was going to be a Conservative minority government but the Liberals might be able to narrowly win a minority of their own. I don't really care either way as long as the NDP has the balance of power.

[apple pie]

I am voting for the communist party, because up in Canada we are so democractic we can vote for communisum

[Iskandar]

I am voting for the communist party, because up in Canada we are so democractic we can vote for communisumTroll.

[apple pie]

why?

[-1up!-]

As of now, I also think that Conservatives will have another minority, but a weaker one than what they expected to get when they got the country into the election. In Quebec, the Conservatives have not been doing well in the last 2 weeks, and many areas where the Conservatives hoped to take seats from the Bloc are showing increasing support for the Bloc. Lucky for the conservatives that election day is tomorrow, because in Quebec they're on a downhill slope right now.

I was hesitant to vote for Bloc at first, but they've had a good campaign and I'll congratulate them with my vote. Yes, for that sole cynical reason. I feel the NDP has had a very good campaign too, and they've appealed to lots of voters of my age. Props to them. I'm always happy to see a progressive party doing good.

[apple pie]

they appeal to youth voters, because the media says we need change, and well, as the party state, they are "new" and have newer thinking. What I find funny is during the debate it was essentally 4 vs Harper, and Harper won, well atleast the English one.

[Surtr]

Mhm, election day goes down tomorrow. I'm excited to see how things fold out. Its almost certain that Harper will remain PM, but I really hope Layton gets into office.

Apple Pie: Oddly enough, I agree about Bloc, and if I lived in Quebec I'd vote Bloc before Liberal or Conservative. Still thought, NDP has my vote.

[Iskandar]

The NDP won't win but they will probably gain some more seats.

If I lived in Quebec I'd vote Bloc too.

[apple pie]

I love there ideas and what they stand for I just hate Jack Layton

[Iskandar]

I was just on the CBC website looking at the 2006 election results. I did a little simple math and figured out that with proportional representation, the makeup of the last Parliament would have been very different. The Conservatives would have had only about 100 seats, the Liberals slightly less, and the NDP and Bloc would more or less switch places. Also the Greens and other smaller parties would have won a dozen or so seats.

Ugh. I hate the current FPTP system.
I love there ideas and what they stand for I just hate Jack LaytonWhy? He's a charismatic leader who appeals to people. Without him, the NDP would probably have less support. And if you love the ideas of the NDP, why on earth did you vote Conservative in the thread poll? They're polar opposites.

Throw me a bone here. I'm confused.

[_Wrathchild_]

I like the NDP platform and will be voting for them today, but I don't particularly like Jack Layton that much either. I feel like he's trying too hard to appeal to the middle class people this time around with his whole "kitchen table" thing and he uses the word "family" about a million times everytime I see him on tv. He's just way too focused on this demographic and seems to be ignoring the younger voters and the single people or the poor people who don't fit in the middle class. Granted, the middle class probably make up a large percentage of the voters, but he just needs to be careful or he might start to lose some of his other voters if he continues to ignore them in the future.
Idk though I just got tv and internet a week ago so I haven't seen as much of the campaign as everyone else probably has.

Hey wtf is with the NDP wanting to make all gang related murder charges automatically first degree murder? That doesn't seem very left wing at all. I just found out about this like yesterday and was like wtf

[Iskandar]

I didn't see that in their platform. I dunno.

I voted this morning.

[RockAndRoll]

I hate Elections Canada. There's a polling station that's a one minute walk from my house, but instead they put me at one that's a 20 minute walk. wtf?!

[Surtr]

Well, under an hour now until polls close. And then about a half hour after that when results start coming in. Gahh, I just don't want Harper in especially, but I REALLY don't want Dion either. :(

[Iskandar]

I think Harper will win narrowly.

Polling stations don't close until 9:30, what time zone are you in?

[Surtr]

Zomgz, my clock was ahead half an hour for some reason. But stations close here at 8:30, I'm in Atlantic Canada (New Brunswick/PEI/Nova Scotia).

[Iskandar]

Oh. They close at 9:30 here. Probably because we're more important.:)

[Surtr]

Probably lol. Its all good, I hate where I live. The NDP Candidate here is a tool, but he's the lesser of the evils of all the other candidates here lol.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was so close to voting Communist.

[Iskandar]

Probably lol. Its all good, I hate where I live. The NDP Candidate here is a tool, but he's the lesser of the evils of all the other candidates here lol.Who cares about the candidates? People vote for the parties. Besides, once a candidate gets elected they vote with the party or get expelled from it.

[Surtr]

True true. I couldn't vote anyway but I still think that the NDP vote here is going to be very low.

Edit: Ok, well there we go, its Harper again. Ahh goddamn you ****ing Canada. I've never liked it here anyway.

[PtitDominator]

I'm from quebec, but didn't vote for the bloc. I think its useless and I'm not a separatist (though I'm a francophone). I voted liberal, and NO, I dont think Dion is that bad. He looks like a nerdy intellectual, but for once, it would change to have a bright PM, even though he is not the best communicator (Hitler was a good one, wasn't he!?). Anyway those fcking conservatives are still gonna be elected, let's hope it's gonna be a minoritary government. Also, I hope that Obama will be elected in the USA, so that Harper doesn't have anybody's *** to lick when it comes to diplomatic relations between our two countries. f*ck the conservatives and the republicans, they're the same breed of governments and will lead us to economic and environmental chaos. All these guys think about is money and nothing else, and apparently, so does the population of our once great nation.

[PtitDominator]

By the way, I've personally known some separatist hardliners and found them hilarious. There are xenophobic people all around the world in every country, including here in Qc. I think it's a pity that both french and english-canadians have so many prejudices towards each other. Apart from our languages, our cultures are pretty much the same (I'm mostly thinking about hockey here lol). Basically, the reason some people here hate english-canadians is because they claim to fight imperialism, based on historical matters. That was hundreds of years ago, I think it's about time they got over it. Fortunatly, these people are a minority and don't understand anything to politics.

[bobby__johnny]

i didnt know who to vote for. So instead of spoiling a ballot, i voted for the Radical Marijuana party... no joke :confused:

[-1up!-]

Canada's attachment multiculturalism and Quebec's attachment to interculturalism are already large cultural differences in and by themselves.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

I voted Liberal and my dude (Marc Garneau, space man!) won. Score.

I guess the situtation isn't too bad. Harper will have to compromise in such a way that at least one other party is on board, so he can't go crazy and ban abortion or anything. He'll be able to govern without too much hassle, but he'll still have to be kept reasonable.

Canada's attachment multiculturalism and Quebec's attachment to interculturalism are already large cultural differences in and by themselves.

I don't think that's as much a reflection of the culture itself as how secure it feels in the world. If Quebec didn't perceive itself as constantly on the verge of assimilation I don't think integration would be nearly as big an issue.

I think the differences between Quebec and the rest of Canada are often overblown. There are differences, of course, but in the grand scheme of things we're still too similar to justify this many problems and misunderstandings. People in small-town Quebec are more similar to people from small-town Alberta than to people from Montreal.

[Iskandar]

So the structure of this Parliament is pretty much the same as the last one, but the NDP won eight more seats so I'm happy. They even won a couple in Quebec and Alberta.

[Surtr]

They took a bunch in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. Which was a huge shock too, 'cause Newfoundland has never been very big on NDP at all.

[Iskandar]

Despite their gains, though, they lost several close races to the Conservatives, including some in BC which is traditionally friendly to the NDP. A shame.

So the unofficial results are:

143 Conservative
76 Liberal
50 Bloc
37 NDP
2 Indepedent
0 Green.

However, if the parties were awarded seats proportionally to their support, we would have:

116 Conservative
81 Liberal
57 NDP
31 Bloc
21 Green
2 Independent

Interesting to say the least, infuriating at best, at least for a lot of NDP and Green supporters whose votes counted for nothing. I was one.