The Republican National Convention

[ringworm]

OK fellas, who is watching this?


I can't begin to express my frustration at what is being said and the reaction from the crowd. I tried to write down a few comments from each speaker to discuss in here, but I simply couldn't keep up with the audacious speaking points Mitt, Rudy and a few others said. Palin hasn't even started speaking yet.

Seriously, you have got to watch this garbage.

Mitt Romney's was the most significant. He actually said that we have to regain control over Liberal Washington and take back our government. :/


Rudy just said let's elect McCain/Palin and shake this country up and begin moving forward?
ps, while he was standing behind a NY City backdrop :lol:

If you're watching, please post in here.

[elmntr]

it's even worse than the democratic convention

[RNR]

Unidealistic old white people who like Jesus. Gah.

[ringworm]

Palin just said, that there is a time for change, and a time to put your country first? :lol:

[-1up!-]

Watching it.

Rudy Giuliani dealt pretty heavy blows to Obama. Ouch.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm avoiding watching this on purpose.

[ringworm]

they are hurling insult after insult towards the media and liberals

they have used it more than the word, bush :)

also, they said obama had the least amount of experience to be president than anyone in the last 100 years, uh, i may be wrong, but how much of a background did reagan have before he was elected?


I'm avoiding watching this on purpose.

PLEASE watch this Ron

i need some more people as ridiculously upset as i am

[Mr. Ron]

I just think its funny that they still think there's a liberal media

how dumb can they get?

[BridgeToSolace]

I hope there's some community organizer special interest group to give Palin **** for an idiot.

Real responsibilities? wtf is wrong with you?

[Avalanche.]

how the **** are they still playing the experience card given their vp

[BridgeToSolace]

I enjoy the contrasts between how the DNC treats McCain and RNC treats Obama.

RNC harps on Obama's past scandals, inexperience, unamerican, elitism.

DNC says "Hey, McCain is a great guy, but his policies aren't very good."

In their defense I haven't watched much of either.

Oh, and people cheer way too ****ing much at these things. Shut the **** up.

And if you want specific plans from Obama, go to his website. Speeches are not for explaining nuanced policies.

[ringworm]

palin just mentioned the columns at the dem convention

not too long after fox news said we need to address the "issues" more

and rudy said the single most important issue to all americans is al qaeda

i cant believe the garbage and complete lies stated and taken as fact by the audience

[gregulus]

liberal media, washington elite, blah blah blah.


**** the world.
-john rambo

[ringworm]

before this convention a terrorist attack has never looked so good :lol:


and i love the many uses of maverick


lol, another one

there is only one man in this election who has ever fought for you
by getting blown out of the sky in a million dollar jet by a hand me down shoulder propelled rocket :)

[Avalanche.]

I have to discuss the addition of Palin to the Rep card this year and her speech at the RNC tomorrow in my poli sci class

any of you guys want to throw in interesting tidbits of info or unsatisfactory things about her or the speech in general? I'd be much obliged

[ringworm]

any of you guys want to throw in interesting tidbits of info or unsatisfactory things about her or the speech in general? I'd be much obliged

the entire speech?

i really cant keep up with all the tidbits that are exhaustively annoying my intelligence.

but honestly, Mitt, Rudy and Huckabee were far worse, mainly Mitt
his comments were that of a person who just unlocked a hatch in a time machine. He actually referred to the current government as liberal and needing a huge shift to regain it's conservatism.

[Avalanche.]

im taking notes, i just thought it might be nice to get a few more perspectives in on anything in particular

[ringworm]

and the fact that Rudy stood in front of a NY city backdrop during his entire ridiculous rant

[Reaganista]

partisan hacks are ruining a historic moment

[BridgeToSolace]

The Daily Show is so ridiculously ripping Rove and O'Reilly and Hannity and Morris and McCain's policy adviser new assholes over this.

I mean, direct and overt contradictions.

I lurv it. So much better than the RNC.

[gregulus]

[QUOTE=Reaganista;16648407]partisan hacks are ruining everything/QUOTE]

fix'd.

[-1up!-]

I enjoy the contrasts between how the DNC treats McCain and RNC treats Obama.

RNC harps on Obama's past scandals, inexperience, unamerican, elitism.

DNC says "Hey, McCain is a great guy, but his policies aren't very good."


True. There was so much more class coming from Dems compared to Republicans. I understand the parties' organisations dig up whatever dirt they can on the opposite party's candidate, but to see such personal, demagogic and populist attacks coming from the VP candidate and former presidential ticket runners is ugly.

[ringworm]

maybe smokey can help me

from an american experience, wouldnt free trade tend to assist in the exporting of american (favored american) jobs? like manufacturing or other traditional blue collar jobs?

and to Avalanche.
you might could talk about Rudy commenting on Obama's support of a united Jerusalem like this is somehow blasphemy?

and maybe their continued use of the "to lose an election to win a war" stance

but the continues use of liberal media and liberal government kept striking a nerve
even though the supreme court has been conservative for 8 years
even though the house and senate have been conservative for the last 5 years
and the current admin is conservative and has been for the past 8

their are far more, but i just couldnt keep up

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

I watched about 5 minutes before it occured to me that I'm really thankful I'm not a conservative. Imagine being a conservative and having to vote for these morons.

[Smokey D]

from an american experience, wouldnt free trade tend to assist in the exporting of american (favored american) jobs? like manufacturing or other traditional blue collar jobs?

Globalisation tends to mean that relatively low skilled labour intensive jobs move to markets with lower wages, so yeah manufacturing and stuff tends to head south of the border.

[MattSharpIsCool]

I enjoy the contrasts between how the DNC treats McCain and RNC treats Obama.

RNC harps on Obama's past scandals, inexperience, unamerican, elitism.

DNC says "Hey, McCain is a great guy, but his policies aren't very good."


Unfortunately, that's a big reason why Conservatives have pretty much controlled the country ever since WWII.

Voters say they don't like slander campaigns and attack ads, but when it comes down it, that's what they respond to.

The 2004 election is a recent example. The Republicans dumped on Kerry the whole time, and he never fought back, choosing to take the "high ground" and look what it got him.

[PunkItUp]

RNC lol

[Chrysostom]

they are hurling insult after insult towards the media and liberals

Ha, I wish I could watch this, because it sounds just like the FOX News election debate section on that Simpsons episode where Krusty runs for Congress: "You make a very adulterous point" etc.

[siva_chair]

I heard people were complaining about the lack of available restroom facilities at the DNC.

They obviously didn't have that problem at the RNC. Everyone there is just encouraged to piss on the poor.

[pate]

I just think its funny that they still think there's a liberal media

how dumb can they get?

Are you kidding me?

NBC
ABC
CBS
The Daily Show
The Colbert Report
The Washington Post
The New York Times
Newsweek
and on and on

Conservative media = Fox News, talk radio, the Wall Street Journal

[Smokey D]

Hah. Daily Show and Colbert Report are satire. They aren't serious.

Of the others, only MSNBC is consistently left-wing.

[pate]

Yes, but the shows shed Republicans in a bad light a lot more often than doing so to Dems. College freshman watching those for their only source of news wouldn't know any better.

Newsweek has (I think) 9 left wing columnists and 3 right wing columnists.

[Smokey D]

Yes, but the shows shed Republicans in a bad light a lot more often than doing so to Dems. College freshman watching those for their only source of news wouldn't know any better.

I'm pretty sure most people can work out that the Daily Show is satire.


Newsweek has (I think) 9 left wing columnists and 3 right wing columnists.

I admit I don't really know about US newspapers. Partisanship in print media is pretty common, though and hardly limited to the left.

[pate]

I'm pretty sure most people can work out that the Daily Show is satire.


But you don't see Jon Stewart attacking liberals like he did with Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich.

[Smokey D]

It doesn't claim to be unbiased and isn't a news show.

[siva_chair]

Jon Stewart made fun of Clinton all the time.

Why? Because he is great comedic fodder. So is Bush and so are lots of politicians.

[pate]

It doesn't claim to be unbiased and isn't a news show.

I didn't say it was intended to be unbiased or a news show. But a lot of people think it is both of those things.

[Smokey D]

Er, I don't understand why we should bother with those people or get worked up about satire.

[pate]

Maybe they understand that it's satire, but Colbert always makes conservatives look bad and liberals look good. I laugh when I watch it. But I bet a lot of viewers take those things to heart.

That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm not doing a very good job of it!

[Otherside]

I wouldn't say any of those, with the exception of daily show/colbert, report have any significant bias, and definitely not to the degree of fox news.

Moreover, if Obama's press coverage is 70% NEGATIVE, I really don't see how anyone could make the claim regardless.

[pate]

I call bs on that.

NBC, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and all those newspapers fawn over him all the time.


I think if Fox News dropped the fair and balanced schtick they wouldn't get so much ****.

[Otherside]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/27/Study_Media_rougher_on_Obama/UPI-43191217211564/

[pate]

Yeah, I've seen that report. I still think it's bs.

[Otherside]

and thats ok but you have to understand in terms of persuasiveness im going to have always have to side with a college study over an anonymous intranetz poster

[pate]

That's fine. I'm not trying to persuade you.

[siva_chair]

and thats ok but you have to understand in terms of persuasiveness im going to have always have to side with a college study over an anonymous intranetz poster

Are you crazy?! All of those sources are obviously biased. The only true way to get factual information is to believe the opinions you read on these very forums...

[pate]

ha ha ha

[Otherside]

Are you crazy?! All of those sources are obviously biased. The only true way to get factual information is to believe the opinions you read on these very forums...

i know man thats what im sayin

[Already_Taken]

College freshman watching those for their only source of news wouldn't know any better.

anyone who watches the daily show for news is not smart enough to be in college. quit crying like all your representatives.

[-1up!-]

The RNC stinks of chauvinism.

[Jude]

No **** the media is rougher on Obama

his pastor said the government created AIDS and there was so much of a shitstorm that he had to cut ties with him

Palin's pastor on the other hand thinks Democrats all go to hell and nobody thinks this is a big deal

And don't even get me started on what the circus would be like if Obama's teenage daughter was getting a shotgun wedding or if he owned nine houses and had ditched his disfigured wife for a Barbie-looking heiress.

Anyway, has anyone kept track of what percentage of the speeches are devoted to attacking Obama? I'd guess above 40%.

[Iskandar]

I heard people were complaining about the lack of available restroom facilities at the DNC.

They obviously didn't have that problem at the RNC. Everyone there is just encouraged to piss on the poor.:lol::lol::lol:

[ringworm]

I'm pretty sure most people can work out that the Daily Show is satire.

hopefully, but millions of americans also think these mass email smears about each candidate come from accurate sources as well :)

Globalisation tends to mean that relatively low skilled labour intensive jobs move to markets with lower wages, so yeah manufacturing and stuff tends to head south of the border.

i thought so, the reason i asked was mccain recently said i want to bring back blue collar jobs for working americans then went straight to saying that we must open up free trade even more

it just didnt make any sense. am i stretching his comments just make my point or is this a valid talking point that those two kinda unbalance each other?

[Illmatic]

But you don't see Jon Stewart attacking liberals like he did with Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich.

if I remember correctly he and Colbert were pretty rough on Kerry during the last election (and rightfully so...)

[BridgeToSolace]

But you don't see Jon Stewart attacking liberals like he did with Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich.

But you always see him attacking stupid people.

Colbert, by his very nature, is a satire of the far right. But he makes fun of the left. So there are layers of satire there.

[Iskandar]

Both Stewart and Colbert make fun of the left and right. But their audience is educated, affluent liberals so that has to be taken into account.

[elmntrs]

oh god saw the romney speech today

[Iskandar]

I need to see that.

[JohnXDoe3]

its like watching a convention for retirees :(

[Mr. Ron]

when palin spoke you could almost hear the demons inside of her chest fighting.

[Iscariot]

I didn't say it was intended to be unbiased or a news show. But a lot of people think it is both of those things.

no they don't it's very painfully obvious that it's a comedy

are you seriously grasping for straws that much that you would claim the daily show and the report are liberal media outlets? christ you're pathetic

and i love how every five seconds during the rnc there was one insult after another thrown at liberals and obama and a string of jokes so long you could wrap the world twice over with it whereas when i watched the dnc no one said anything bad about the republican party they just basically said they had the wrong idea

i can't believe the desperation pouring from the republican party lately

[ringworm]

a local dj completely pwned the fiasco last night, he broadcast a large portion of palin's speech then tore her apart

i'll try to get his audio, he was spot on, at least some people around where i live were disgusted and took note at the lack of dignity they chose to act on

i am resisting the urge to watch it tonight

[Akira]

I call bs on that.

NBC, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and all those newspapers fawn over him all the time.


I think if Fox News dropped the fair and balanced schtick and O'Reilly and Hannity and Murdoch and the gutter journalism they wouldn't get so much ****.

Fix'd.


Also, yay for fake troops.
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1843

[JohnXDoe3]

Cindy McCain is scaring me :(

i think she's kinda milf (or gmilf) but she is still scaring me

[Hedgedive]

she's had my whole family lolling for the past 20 minutes ^_^

[Krabsworth]

what a large stadium full of tools

[Mr. Ron]

Nation First!

[JohnXDoe3]

haha protesters got in for the McCain speech

[Mr. Ron]

loling so hard at him saying he won't spend money on things people don't need or want

[Reaganista]

my sister just called and said lesbians were attacking the stage im not watching it tho

[JohnXDoe3]

its true :(

[BridgeToSolace]

I liked most of McCain's speech. A lot of irrelevant stuff, but a decent speech.

The "We Love Cindy" poster was weeeeird.

Also, McCain can't read off a prompter.

[BillyBonebrake]

wow he must have had a double does of Geritol with his dinner the way he wrapped that up


edit: dammit wrong account :(


brb

[JohnXDoe3]

onoes its BARRACUDA

[McP3000]

ooooooooooooooooo

BARRACUDA

[Already_Taken]

he blinks too much. stop blinking!!! is all i can think when i see him.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

oh and did anybody else notice that Lieberman read his whole speech off a prompter, even as he insulted Obama for being eloquent and good at reading off a prompter?

[ringworm]

"ok, big, do nothing, me first, country second, washington, change is coming"
mccain

can someone explain to me how bashing yourself is a presidential campaign strategy?

[siva_chair]

It's a welcome change from trying to convince everyone your **** doesn't stink, tbh.

But hey what do I know I treat this election like a sitcom I sometimes watch and follow when there is nothing else on, but not something I am going to waste space on my TiVo over....

[WhoDidTheElf]

Palin > Obama Speech

[Jude]

cindy mccain is a pbiwnftfabd

plastic bitch i would never ****ing touch for a billion dollars

[RNR]

Jea I noticed the plastic too. So many years of being a stupid hateful christian republican bitch made her ugly so she had to get plastic surgery or a face lift or whatever and now she's a stupid hateful christian republican bitch with a plastic face and an annoying voice. I don't really like Hilary, but at least she understands that nobody likes plastic bitches.

[Iskandar]

Palin > Obama Speechlol no sorry

[Already_Taken]

palin was funny. she knew she had attention and capitalized on it, but ask her to give a speech on something that matters, then we'll see.

[BridgeToSolace]

lol no sorry

Well...if you're looking for comedy...

[-1up!-]

palin was funny. she knew she had attention and capitalized on it, but ask her to give a speech on something that matters, then we'll see.

This. Her speech felt good in the immediate aftermath of it because she attacked Obama so much, and really put efforts to make McCain look heroic and a better patriot than Obama. But when you look back on it, it was mostly good for reassuring the republican base and forfitying their support, IMO.

So yeah ok, she's a mother of a family like all others, she's a young governor so she had to take decisions, okay. But once the dust has settled and the fireworks have been dismissed, there's not much consistent matter left in Palin's speech.

[Avalanche.]

I thought her speech was awful, but apparently it's getting a ton of praise?

[Jude]

The way she delivered it was OK I guess nothing special

The speech itself was sufficient cause for her to be lynched alongside her speechwriters

[elmntrs]

they had to rewrite it once she was nominated to make it more "feminine"

lol

[MattSharpIsCool]

Apparently Rage Against The Machine's concert at the RNC was broken up by the police even though they had a permit.

Not totally relevant, but I thought that was neat.

[BridgeToSolace]

they had to rewrite it once she was nominated to make it more "feminine"

lol

"Okay, guys. We need to pussy this up."

"How about we compare soccer moms to pit bulls?"

"Good work, Johnson. Send it out!"

[Akira]

So I watched the 9/11 "Tribute" (read: push for war in Iran) all the way through for the first time.

Am I the only one who found it extremely inappropriate that the video got a standing ovation?

[siva_chair]

Yes, yes you are. How does that make you feel?

[Akira]

Depressed that people think it's appropriate to cheer for a video showing a terrorist attack followed by meaningless rhetoric.

[siva_chair]

I'm sorry you feel depressed here have some zoloft.

[Jude]

I didn't see that video but I can imagine exactly the type of thing you're talking about

And once again it is the kind of thing that makes me believe Iran and Russia would be totally justified in nuking America off the planet

[Amit]

small town values ftw

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

small town values ftw

it always amazes me that small town people can be so retarded sometimes


never seeing a building more than 3 stories tall apparently limits your brain's ability to see the bigger picture

[Linkinbassist]

Apparently Rage Against The Machine's concert at the RNC was broken up by the police even though they had a permit.

Not totally relevant, but I thought that was neat.

it was the DNC.

[niobium]

i thought they were scheduled to play both

as not to give the impression that they were endorsing a particular candidate/party or something

[Already_Taken]

it always amazes me that small town people can be so retarded sometimes


never seeing a building more than 3 stories tall apparently limits your brain's ability to see the bigger picture

or maybe they have different interests due to the fact that they don't have the huge amount of people a metropolis has. have you ever lived in a "small town"?

[Amit]

i lived over ten years of my most formative years in a backwards *** republican voting redneck small town

it's plain lulzy

[Linkinbassist]

i thought they were scheduled to play both

as not to give the impression that they were endorsing a particular candidate/party or something

Nah, the official line is that they only played the DNC because clinton was in power at the time. the gig ended after 5-6 songs and then riots began, and one fan was beaten to death by 5 officers, all of whom got off without charge.

Trust me, i'm a huge RATM fan and a historian :thumb:

[Already_Taken]

i lived over ten years of my most formative years in a backwards *** republican voting redneck small town

it's plain lulzy

i know what you mean. my parents never really had that small-town mentality, but it certainly was different. i also enjoyed the peaceful nature, and the familiarity with most of your town's citizens. you can't deny they have different interests than city-folk.

[Kingofdudes]

Nah, the official line is that they only played the DNC because clinton was in power at the time. the gig ended after 5-6 songs and then riots began, and one fan was beaten to death by 5 officers, all of whom got off without charge.

Trust me, i'm a huge RATM fan and a historian :thumb:

ummmm I think you may be confused

[Already_Taken]

to give him credit, he said he's a historian. i think what happened last weeks falls under current events.

[Amit]

i know what you mean. my parents never really had that small-town mentality, but it certainly was different. i also enjoyed the peaceful nature, and the familiarity with most of your town's citizens. you can't deny they have different interests than city-folk.

dude

i dunno about your town but my rural town was far from peaceful and all that so called familiarity only bred inane hostility and entrenched groupthink

ugh those are not things politicians should be pandering to

[gregulus]

dude

i dunno about your town but my rural town was far from peaceful and all that so called familiarity only bred inane hostility and entrenched groupthink

ugh those are not things politicians should be pandering to

qft.

[Already_Taken]

dude

i dunno about your town but my rural town was far from peaceful and all that so called familiarity only bred inane hostility and entrenched groupthink

ugh those are not things politicians should be pandering to

my town just had a bunch of old people, and a few families, and everyone was real nice, but i didn't live there passed age 8 or so, which might have skewed my perception.

[thunderzstruck]

Apparently Rage Against The Machine's concert at the RNC was broken up by the police even though they had a permit.

Not totally relevant, but I thought that was neat.

nah, they didnt have one and that was the reason it was broken up. they tried to set up at 640pm and the event was set to close at 7

[Amit]

my town just had a bunch of old people, and a few families, and everyone was real nice, but i didn't live there passed age 8 or so, which might have skewed my perception.

kids fortunately don't have to deal with the social problems found in small towns and their small town values

[siva_chair]

And once again it is the kind of thing that makes me believe Iran and Russia would be totally justified in nuking America off the planet

No this is what we in the biz like to call wrong.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

or maybe they have different interests due to the fact that they don't have the huge amount of people a metropolis has. have you ever lived in a "small town"?

how does someone's ability to understand things they can't concretely see in front of them (the theory of evolution, god, etc.) depend on the interests of the size of their town?

[Jude]

No this is what we in the biz like to call wrong.

What

The fact that the Republican party's base is a bunch of intolerable inbred wastes of air

or the fact that I wouldn't miss middle America if Iran nuked it

[siva_chair]

What

The fact that the Republican party's base is a bunch of intolerable inbred wastes of air

or the fact that I wouldn't miss middle America if Iran nuked it

The fact that you said two highly authoritarian nations would be justified in nuking the US.

[Reaganista]

no one is justified in nuking anyone youre both stupid

[siva_chair]

no one is justified in nuking anyone youre both stupid

I never said anyone was how does that make me stupid Tway?

[Already_Taken]

how does someone's ability to understand things they can't concretely see in front of them (the theory of evolution, god, etc.) depend on the interests of the size of their town?

i was talking more about their business oriented interests.

but you could venture to say that without so much outside interaction, your views will probably be questioned less, leaving you less apt to change what you believe.

[iliketoplaydrums10111]

i would die if i had to live in a small town

[Reaganista]

I never said anyone was how does that make me stupid Tway?
your specificity implied that sometimes someone would be

[siva_chair]

your specificity implied that sometimes someone would be

wasn't my intention sorry you misunderstood me

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

but you could venture to say that without so much outside interaction, your views will probably be questioned less, leaving you less apt to change what you believe.

Yeah, I know, it just still amazes me. It's too bad everyone with half a brain leaves, because small towns are pretty much a bunch of morons and a few people who left for school and came back to be rich.

[siva_chair]

Yeah, I know, it just still amazes me. It's too bad everyone with half a brain leaves, because small towns are pretty much a bunch of morons and a few people who left for school and came back to be rich.

Not true.

Some people actually prefer to live in a rural setting believe it or not. That has nothing to do with one's intelligence.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Not true.

Some people actually prefer to live in a rural setting believe it or not. That has nothing to do with one's intelligence.

Hence the "pretty much" in my statement. Dumbass.

[elmntrs]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9184/onepd3.jpg

[Jude]

Being in a small town often entails being around a bunch of people who look, live, act and think exactly like you

This leads to being closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in your thinking

otherwise known as stupid

[niobium]

in other words knowing everyone in town and being content with that fact isn't considered very healthy

[Jude]

Not really

[niobium]

i woudln't be content with knowing everyone in my town

[Jude]

well if you were in a small enough town to know everyone then that would probably not be a good thing to be content with but that's separate

[Shell]

Being in a small town often entails being around a bunch of people who look, live, act and think exactly like you

This leads to being closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in your thinking

otherwise known as stupid

not necessarily

there's this crazy thing called the internet :amaze:

[Avalanche.]

I live in a village of right around 3.5k

Racial Make-up always makes me kind of lol The racial makeup of the village was 98.65% White, 0.28% African American, 0.03% Native American, 0.38% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.10% from other races, and 0.52% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.69% of the population.

We are a very homogeneous people, and a Republican stronghold deep in the heart of Obama Country; we border Springfield, Illinois.

I will back up any claims that the majority of these people simply cannot comprehend/accept/tolerate lifestyles and cultures other than their own.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

:lol:
you guys must have exactly 1 pacific islander. 1/3500 is about 0.03%.

[Amit]

where do indians fit into racial make-up statistics

[Avalanche.]

I see a black person drive through town every once in awhile but i dont think ive ever seen any pacific islanders or native americans in my village

we have a 3-4 mixed kids, an indian, 2 asians, and a large latino girl in my school but the rest is white to my knowledge staff and administrators included

i dont think ive ever seen any indians here outside of the one in my school

its weird because literally like 5 miles away its a completely different story

[Hedgedive]

I live in Southeast Texas...

...nuff said :/

[Chinchilla]

also, they said obama had the least amount of experience to be president than anyone in the last 100 years, uh, i may be wrong, but how much of a background did reagan have before he was elected?



Reagan served two terms (I think) as governor in California so he did in fact have executive leadership experience.

[Jude]

not necessarily



Well of course not NECESSARILY...

[FIGHTCRIMEALLTHETIME]

you guys who talk about 'stupid people' make me lol
its like one of the stupidest things you can say so its just kind of funny

[GUTS]

^^^

[Already_Taken]

fightcrimeallthetime im with you dude, how ethnocentric do you have to be to call someone from a small town stupid because their views are different than yours?

[Smokey D]

I dunno if they're stupid but it's pretty well documented that small communities are more risk averse, more hostile to change, etc. It's why they cling to guns and religion.

[Amit]

yeah

[butt assault]

likewise more populated areas are liberal panzies

[McP3000]

pansies is the correct word

[siva_chair]

This leads to being closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in your thinking

Sounds a lot like your view of people from small towns, tbh.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

fightcrimeallthetime im with you dude, how ethnocentric do you have to be to call someone from a small town stupid because their views are different than yours?
cmon now, just because theyre stupid and from small towns doesn't mean their of a different ethnicity.

[Amit]

Sounds a lot like your view of people from small towns, tbh.

he might have not lived in a poor white small town but i have lived in quite a few

his statement holds quite true for american small towns

[JayLink2346]

The industrial revolution (1820-1870) was built on the backs of small town America.
We owe these people a great debt , because the hicks in the sticks, the backwoods folk, and every stupid person in middle America, worked hard and toiled for small wages to make our country great, I will honor the people from the small towns.

[siva_chair]

he might have not lived in a poor white small town but i have lived in quite a few

his statement holds quite true for american small towns

His statement is as every bit as closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in thinking as those he is criticizing. He is generalizing in the same manner racists generalize by race.

[Amit]

His statement is as every bit as closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in thinking as those he is criticizing. He is generalizing in the same manner racists generalize by race.

yeah except you can't change your race lolz

The industrial revolution (1820-1870) was built on the backs of small town America.
We owe these people a great debt , because the hicks in the sticks, the backwoods folk, and every stupid person in middle America, worked hard and toiled for small wages to make our country great, I will honor the people from the small towns.

stupid people in middle america didn't make the atomic bomb or the semiconductor

smart people from all parts of america did

sorry jay stupid people need to be derided and insulted...not honored

here's a cool example of a small, intolerant, and provincial town producing someone extraordinary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Cray

this dude is from my girlfriend's town :]:]

[JayLink2346]

You, a foreigner are now able to reap the benefits of all those "stupid people" opening up their country to you and so many others around the world. The Manhattan Project with scientist from Germany and all over the world created the Atom bomb. Why would you honor mass murderers? It was the stupid hard working immigrant Americans who made this country great, and if you don't think so, maybe you shouldn't even be here taking advantage of our freedoms and educational systems.

[Amit]

loooooooooolz

without smart people, foreign and domestic, you wouldn't have had the industrial revolution that you're fellating so much, you lumbering ninny

dumb people are expendable tbh

considering how much better i understand american history and culture than you, maybe you should be the one leaving, you obese foreigner

[Iscariot]

the irish made this country great **** off jay you stupid wop

/does a jig

[Amit]

:does a jig:

[Iscariot]

/passes around the whiskey and starts singing love songs

[JayLink2346]

loooooooooolz

without smart people, foreign and domestic, you wouldn't have had the industrial revolution that you're fellating so much, you lumbering ninny

dumb people are expendable tbh

considering how much better i understand american history and culture than you, maybe you should be the one leaving, you obese foreigner

this statement makes you look so shallow and elitist, you deserve every bad thing you get in life that comes your way. sad really.

[Iscariot]

hey jay he does that on purpose

this is why you don't belong in here

[JayLink2346]

yeah, I know, but still sad.

[siva_chair]

yeah except you can't change your race lolz

Michael Jackson.

[Iscariot]

tiger woods tbh

[siva_chair]

tiger woods tbh

123 tbh

[Smokey D]

His statement is as every bit as closed-minded, rigid, intolerant and provincial in thinking as those he is criticizing. He is generalizing in the same manner racists generalize by race.

Except that there's considerable sociological evidence and political science to back up the idea.

It doesn't mean that all people from small towns are intolerant, narrow minded, bigoted and provincial. But there is a preponderance when compared to denser urban areas, and it's a trend which the Republicans are trying to tap with Palin.

The industrial revolution (1820-1870) was built on the backs of small town America.

Lol, no it was built on urban agglomerations and factory capital.

Also, aren't all JayLink accounts bannable on site?

[siva_chair]

Except that there's considerable sociological evidence and political science to back up the idea.

It doesn't mean that all people from small towns are intolerant, narrow minded, bigoted and provincial. But there is a preponderance when compared to denser urban areas, and it's a trend which the Republicans are trying to tap with Palin.

There is also a preponderance that denser uban areas harbor far more crime and criminals. This leads to urban cesspools of violence and other criminal aspects.

One can take a generalizing narrow minded view from either position.

[Smokey D]

No, it's totally true that more crime happens in cities. That shouldn't be confused with urban residents are proportionally more likely to commit crime. I'm not saying there is evidence for more small mindedness in small town populations. I'm saying small town people are more likely to be small minded. Although they look like they involve the same things, they're logically quite different.

[siva_chair]

No, it's totally true that more crime happens in cities. That shouldn't be confused with urban residents are proportionally more likely to commit crime. I'm not saying there is evidence for more small mindedness in small town populations. I'm saying small town people are more likely to be small minded. Although they look like they involve the same things, they're logically quite different.

What?

[Smokey D]

To say that more crime occurs in big cities is distinct from saying that urban populations commit more crimes per capita.

To say that more small mindedness occurs in small towns is distinct from saying small town populations are more small minded per capita.

I'm saying that small mindedness is more common per capita in small towns, and that this is the stream Sarah Palin is meant to tap into.

[siva_chair]

To say that more crime occurs in big cities is distinct from saying that urban populations commit more crimes per capita.

Urban populations do commit more crimes per capita, though.

To say that more small mindedness occurs in small towns is distinct from saying small town populations are more small minded per capita.

I'm saying that small mindedness is more common per capita in small towns, and that this is the stream Sarah Palin is meant to tap into.

I don't see how you can justify this exactly. How do you empirically measure small mindedness?

Also, diversity within urban areas does not signify that the population is really less "small minded" it just means that small towns are more homogeneous.

[okay]

Homogeneous in ethnicity and in ideas, which breeds small mindedness.

Plus I'd say to be wary when comparing crime in big cities and small towns, etc. There are so many different and diverse dynamics at play, you can't simply just hold up two instances of one thing and compare without considering the other dynamics.

[Iscariot]

what a small-minded statement

[Smokey D]

Urban populations do commit more crimes per capita, though.


Probably, but the point still holds.

I don't see how you can justify this exactly. How do you empirically measure small mindedness?

As I said, I'm going on sociological and political science studies here. And by small mindedness I mean risk averse and reluctant to embrace change etc.

Also, diversity within urban areas does not signify that the population is really less "small minded" it just means that small towns are more homogeneous.

Well, no. Diversity in itself means nothing. I suspect it may a play a causal role in breaking down small town mindsets, but that's a different argument.

[siva_chair]

As I said, I'm going on sociological and political science studies here. And by small mindedness I mean risk averse and reluctant to embrace change etc.

I'd like to see these said studies.

Well, no. Diversity in itself means nothing. I suspect it may a play a causal role in breaking down small town mindsets, but that's a different argument.

And I suspect it may play a causal role in perpetuating violence within cities.

[Smokey D]

I'd like to see these said studies.

You're seriously going to argue people from small towns aren't, on average, more risk averse and reluctant to embrace change?


And I suspect it may play a causal role in perpetuating violence within cities.

Maybe, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

And I seriously doubt it.

[siva_chair]

You're seriously going to argue people from small towns aren't, on average, more risk averse and reluctant to embrace change?

No I'm just asking you to back your claims up with empirical research.


Maybe, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

And I seriously doubt it.

Why do you doubt it?

[Smokey D]

No I'm just asking you to back your claims up with empirical research.


I'm not a sociology major, so I don't have it at my fingertips. I'll look, but it seems pretty stupid. This is a well established concept in political punditry.

In Jared Diamond's books, he regularly talks about it.

Why do you doubt it?

Because there are so many more obvious etiologies for crime than diversity.

I'm not even sure what you mean by diversity, though so I dunno.

[siva_chair]

I'm not a sociology major, so I don't have it at my fingertips. I'll look, but it seems pretty stupid. This is a well established concept in political punditry.

In Jared Diamond's books, he regularly talks about it.

Well I just don't see how one can empirically measure small mindedness per capita like you said, so I was asking for these well documented studies that supposedly empirically measure this sort of thing.

Because there are so many more obvious etiologies for crime than diversity.

I'm not even sure what you mean by diversity, though so I dunno.

Racial, economic, social, ideological, ect.

[Smokey D]

Well I just don't see how one can empirically measure small mindedness per capita like you said, so I was asking for these well d0cumented studies that supposedly empirically measure this sort of thing.

Part of it comes from studies where they ask 'do you like change?' and gauge the response. Part of it is inferred from how people respond to change.


Racial, economic, social, ideological, ect.

Economic diversity is probably the only sort of diversity that contribute significantly to crime. Most crime emerges from other social arrangements or personal quirks.

[okay]

its not hard to see, just look at the types of politicians that are elected in those areas.

[siva_chair]

Part of it comes from studies where they ask 'do you like change?' and gauge the response. Part of it is inferred from how people respond to change.

Ok I'd still like to see them if at all possible.

Besides, "change" can mean two entirely different things in each of those settings.

Economic diversity is probably the only sort of diversity that contribute significantly to crime. Most crime emerges from other social arrangements or personal quirks.

And those are more prevalent in urban settings.

[Smokey D]

Besides, "change" can mean two entirely different things in each of those settings.


How so.

Also, I'm trying to access journals but I need to sign up and pay and stuff. The voting patterns of those regions is pretty significant, though.

And those are more prevalent in urban settings.

Yeah and?

[siva_chair]

How so.

Also, I'm trying to access journals but I need to sign up and pay and stuff. The voting patterns of those regions is pretty significant, though.

What change entails in an urban setting might entail something different than change in a rural setting.

In other words, perhaps people in rural settings do not like change because they are complacent while most people in an urban setting are dissatisfied.

I fail to see how complacency necessarily equates more bigoted behavior per capita.

Yeah and?

Just pointing out that if small towns are more intolerant and small minded, large cities are cesspools of violence and crime.

The "Urban Elitism" that has shown it's face in this thread fails to see that as it points it's finger at the faults of small towns.

[Smokey D]

What change entails in an urban setting might entail something different than change in a rural setting.

True. What I'm saying is that rural communities are frequently reluctant to try either. They usually have pretty good reasons, too.


In other words, perhaps people in rural settings do not like change because they are complacent while most people in an urban setting are dissatisfied.

I don't think complacent was quite the word you're looking for.

But I agree. I don't see why rural communities can't have good reasons for being risk averse and conservative.


I fail to see how complacency necessarily equates more bigoted behavior per capita.


Bigoted is the wrong word. Conservative or risk averse are better. Narrow minded, at a stretch, applies.

Just pointing out that if small towns are more intolerant and small minded, large cities are cesspools of violence and crime.

I think cesspool is a bit strong. But I don't disagree that crime is more common in urban areas.


The "Urban Elitism" that has shown it's face in this thread fails to see that as it points it's finger at the faults of small towns.

I don't see why we are obliged to do one without the other. Of course small towns have their virtues and big cities have their problems. Whoever said they didn't.

[siva_chair]

True. What I'm saying is that rural communities are frequently reluctant to try either. They usually have pretty good reasons, too.

Well remember the whole deal was in response to people saying how people from small towns are bigoted, intolerant, ect.

Not saying you were saying these things, but the air in this thread smacked of urban elitism.

I don't think complacent was quite the word you're looking for.

But I agree. I don't see why rural communities can't have good reasons for being risk averse and conservative.

By complacent I meant generally satisfied with their way of life.

Bigoted is the wrong word. Conservative or risk averse are better. Narrow minded, at a stretch, applies.

My argument was not with you, then, it was with previous comments on small towns.

I think cesspool is a bit strong. But I don't disagree that crime is more common in urban areas.

And I think intolerant and biggoted are a bit strong to describe rural towns. I used cesspool for that very reason.

I don't see why we are obliged to do one without the other. Of course small towns have their virtues and big cities have their problems. Whoever said they didn't.

I was merely trying to demonstrate that portraying people from small towns as racist, bigoted, intolerant, idiots is the same as me portraying everyone from the city as criminal or more apt to be criminal minded. It is a silly generalization that serves little purpose.

[Shell]

yeah except you can't change your race lolz



stupid people in middle america didn't make the atomic bomb or the semiconductor

smart people from all parts of america did

sorry jay stupid people need to be derided and insulted...not honored

here's a cool example of a small, intolerant, and provincial town producing someone extraordinary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Cray

this dude is from my girlfriend's town :]:]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kilby

Jack Kilby is from my shitty little town.

[Smokey D]

Well remember the whole deal was in response to people saying how people from small towns are bigoted, intolerant, ect.

Not saying you were saying these things, but the air in this thread smacked of urban elitism.


I think it's pretty easy although by no means automatic to move from small town conservatism to bigotry. If small towns are reluctant to embrace change, they are reluctant to embrace things like women's lib and racial equality.

By complacent I meant generally satisfied with their way of life.

Content.

I was merely trying to demonstrate that portraying people from small towns as racist, bigoted, intolerant, idiots is the same as me portraying everyone from the city as criminal or more apt to be criminal minded. It is a silly generalization that serves little purpose.

That's fine.

Would you agree that it's appropriate to portray small town populations as conservative and reluctant to embrace change?

[siva_chair]

I think it's pretty easy although by no means automatic to move from small town conservatism to bigotry. If small towns are reluctant to embrace change, they are reluctant to embrace things like women's lib and racial equality.

I don't know about that. Look at the state of Kansas. It is primarily conservative, small towns, ect, but it was the center for a lot of the racial civil rights movements both before the Civil War and during the mid 1900's.

Content.

Complacent

adjective 1. pleased, esp. with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation, etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied: The voters are too complacent to change the government.

I think complacent would work too.


That's fine.

Would you agree that it's appropriate to portray small town populations as conservative and reluctant to embrace change?

Oh absolutely, but it is intellectually dishonest to automatically equate small towns with bigotry and social intolerance.

[Already_Taken]

are we measuring brain sizes in here?

i mean most people live in the cities, and everyone likes to think they are the smartest person alive *coughamitdshtcough*, so they outnumber people defending the "country" point of view. There are probably a tiny fraction of users on here from a town under 1,000 people, so the city folk are just raining their own narrow-minded views about how people - that live a completely different lifestyle, are narrow-minded because they know they have numbers.

keep going... :lol:

[BridgeToSolace]

That's fine.

Would you agree that it's appropriate to portray small town populations as conservative and reluctant to embrace change?

Would you agree that it's appropriate to portray large city populations as liberal and overly eager to embrace change?

:p

[Reaganista]

kansas wasnt the center of any civil rights movement
it was affected by civil rights movements but so was everywhere

[Amit]

this statement makes you look so shallow and elitist, you deserve every bad thing you get in life that comes your way. sad really.

how is that shallow or elitist you stupid sack of ****

oh wait you're so stupid you can't even formulate a valid response

[JJLink]

I'd prefer to be stupid than an elite egotist such as yourself.

There are many people on this planet who have an intellect and intelligence far superior to yous. Should they, then in kind, make fun of you?

[Light Fantastic]

why are people always upset about elitists being an elitist is awesome

[Amit]

I'd prefer to be stupid than an elite egotist such as yourself.

wait what's wrong with being elitist

There are many people on this planet who have an intellect and intelligence far superior to yous. Should they, then in kind, make fun of you?

of course they should but there aren't many of those and they aren't much smarter than i am anyway

fortunately, we are smart enough to overlook such minute differences and unite together to oppress retards like yourself

[JJLink]

no comment Amit. I actually feel sorry for you.

[Iscariot]

jay every time you try to insult someone i can't help but develop this image in my head of a retard laughing at someone because they're in special ed and then going to the bathroom to pick their nose and eat it

[Amit]

no comment Amit. I actually feel sorry for you.

retard uses a stupid copout, sun is expected to rise at dawn tomorrow

no other news to report

[Swill_Merchant]

I already knew it was going to be chalk full of useless bullshit. I am just pissed off at the stupid kids going after the cops for "EXCESSIVE FORCE" when over half the "ABUSE" stories are complete bullshit. I am sad to realize how stupid some of these kids are. The same ones that say "I DON'T FEED INTO PROPAGANDA" then turn around and watch edited videos and believe false statements without researching the truth. Also **** ZACH DE LA ROCHA AND **** RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE.

[Avalanche.]

It was the stupid hard working immigrant Americans who made this country great, and if you don't think so, maybe you shouldn't even be here taking advantage of our freedoms and educational systems.

If you don't like it then you can just geeet out

/southpark

[Reaganista]

america is great because america is the best place to be elite therefore many elites want to come here

[Amit]

yeah pretty much

[Swill_Merchant]

America is a great country. I have a great life and a wonderful standard of living. I know there is poverty, high crime and such in some areas. But generally speaking, I don't think most Americans have to worry about car bombs, their opinions getting them jailed, clean water or food. I don't agree with the government, it could be better. But it also could be worse.

[Amit]

yeah it could be worse

oh wait it is for most americans

[Reaganista]

cry me a river

[Mr. Ron]

agreed but parts of our culture sort of suck

[Reaganista]

our culture is the best part of us

[Mr. Ron]

idk stuff like giant fast food chains suck imo

[Amit]

cry me a river

what goes around cums around

[Mr. Ron]

gross me out

[Reaganista]

giant fast food chains are awesome for cultural imperialism

[Mr. Ron]

modern country music


at least say that is a cultural abortion

[Amit]

but they're bringing sexy back

[Reaganista]

modern country music


at least say that is a cultural abortion

disagree they have some good songs

[Mr. Ron]

Toby Keith is my mentor tbqh

[Amit]

she thinks my tractor's sexy

[Mr. Ron]

Freedom fries

[Smokey D]

I don't know about that. Look at the state of Kansas. It is primarily conservative, small towns, ect, but it was the center for a lot of the racial civil rights movements both before the Civil War and during the mid 1900's.

I dunno if it was small town Kansas behind that.

But conversely, look at places like Mississippi or what ever and how long it took for the civil rights movement to penetrate rural areas there. Even today it's still pretty bad.



Complacent
I think complacent would work too.

Complacent implies smug self satisfaction and being oblivious to impending danger. I think lots of small towns are complacent, but if you're trying to support them then it's probably not a very good word to use.


Oh absolutely, but it is intellectually dishonest to automatically equate small towns with bigotry and social intolerance.

Well, I'm going on political science, voting trends and sociology here.

[McP3000]

yeah it could be worse

oh wait it is for most americans
not really

[Amit]

america is only awesome when you're part of the upper middle class or beyond like i am

very few people are in that part of the socioeconomic stratosphere

[Iscariot]

yeah amit you're pretty lucky i wish my parents were rich and bought me stuff i didn't actually work for :(

[JJLink]

america is only awesome when you're part of the upper middle class or beyond like i am

very few people are in that part of the socioeconomic stratosphere
oh get off the bullsh!t Amit. I've thrown away more money than you'll ever make in the next 5 years if you make a million a year.... What a pile of crap...
It's easy to live off ones' parents. Go out and start earning some of you own money with your fancy degree...lol

[Iscariot]

jay for someone with a ton of money and fame you sure do spend a lot of time on a teenage message board getting ruthlessly humiliated

why don't you go play with people your own age

[Smokey D]

You've thrown away five million dollars?

And you accuse him of being wasteful.

[siva_chair]

kansas wasnt the center of any civil rights movement
it was affected by civil rights movements but so was everywhere

Brown v. Topeka BOE, Free State/Slave State, ect.

Kansas was battleground for black rights.

I dunno if it was small town Kansas behind that.

Lol there is hardly anything but small towns in Kansas. Our largest city (if you don't count KC, which is mostly in Missouri anyway) is Wichita and it only has about 350,000 people today.

But conversely, look at places like Mississippi or what ever and how long it took for the civil rights movement to penetrate rural areas there. Even today it's still pretty bad.

That is because those rural areas were populated by rich white plantation owners. Of course that is going to spawn racial and social tensions. It wasn't even limited to rural areas in the South as even urbanized areas sufferred from the same sort of things.

Complacent implies smug self satisfaction and being oblivious to impending danger. I think lots of small towns are complacent, but if you're trying to support them then it's probably not a very good word to use.

How does it imply smugness? I have never understood it to inherently imply smugness.

Well, I'm going on political science, voting trends and sociology here.

I still don't know if I would say that intolerance and bigotry is more prominent per capita neccessarily.

[JJLink]

You've thrown away five million dollars?

And you accuse him of being wasteful.
I never said I was good with money did I? Yes, I Have tossed away 5 million in the past 25 years. Am I proud of it..no..would I have done something different if I knew what I knew now..Yes.. But the fact is, it was my own hard earned money, and I had a blast till it ran out...

[Iscariot]

maybe if you didn't eat three horses and a goat every day you wouldn't burn through so much money sausagelink

[Smokey D]

I never said I was good with money did I? Yes, I Have tossed away 5 million in the past 25 years. Am I proud of it..no..would I have done something different if I knew what I knew now..Yes.. But the fact is, it was my own hard earned money, and I had a blast till it ran out...

I dunno, you sound pretty dumb. I'd much rather be a smart elitist than someone who threw away 5million.

Lol there is hardly anything but small towns in Kansas. Our largest city (if you don't count KC, which is mostly in Missouri anyway) is Wichita and it only has about 350,000 people today.

Sure, but what role did small towns have in expanding civil rights?

That is because those rural areas were populated by rich white plantation owners. Of course that is going to spawn racial and social tensions. It wasn't even limited to rural areas in the South as even urbanized areas sufferred from the same sort of things.

My point is that rural communities hold on to their values for much longer, not that their values start off bad. So if Mississippi is bad because they're holding on to the racism of their rich white plantation owning forefathers, it supports my point (although most people in the south were not plantation owners).

How does it imply smugness? I have never understood it to inherently imply smugness.

Er, I dunno. It's just what it means. Becoming complacent means thinking yourself beyond harm.

I still don't know if I would say that intolerance and bigotry is more prominent per capita neccessarily.

Not necessarily, no. Small town conservatism, yes.

[siva_chair]

Sure, but what role did small towns have in expanding civil rights?

I don't know I suppose it depends on what you consider a small town. Like I said, most Kansas towns are small towns. It is also where a lot of Exodusters went after the Civil War to establish small black communities. Topeka and Lawrence were notable areas concerning Civil Rights.

My point is that rural communities hold on to their values for much longer, not that their values start off bad. So if Mississippi is bad because they're holding on to the racism of their rich white plantation owning forefathers, it supports my point (although most people in the south were not plantation owners).

But the urban areas held on to their racism as well.

In fact, there is still a large amount of racism in very densely populated urban areas within the South.

Not necessarily, no. Small town conservatism, yes.

Well since I never argued against that I don't see what the deal is here.

[Reaganista]

Brown v. Topeka BOE, Free State/Slave State, ect.

Kansas was battleground for black rights.
ya people from the civil rights movement went to kansas to force people from kansas to act right that's not a point of pride and doesnt make kansas the center of any movement it makes them affected by it

[Amit]

yeah amit you're pretty lucky i wish my parents were rich and bought me stuff i didn't actually work for :(

my point exactly!

[siva_chair]

ya people from the civil rights movement went to kansas to force people from kansas to act right that's not a point of pride and doesnt make kansas the center of any movement it makes them affected by it

Actually they went to Kansas to keep those dirty Missourians from overrunning it with slave owners but w/e I guess you can gloss over history.

And yes it makes it a center of the movement because it is where several important decisions were made quit being an idiot.

[Swill_Merchant]

I never said I was good with money did I? Yes, I Have tossed away 5 million in the past 25 years. Am I proud of it..no..would I have done something different if I knew what I knew now..Yes.. But the fact is, it was my own hard earned money, and I had a blast till it ran out...

I blew 40 million in the past 3 weeks....... I did.... Its true....... Please believe me........ I don't lie......

[siva_chair]

I sit.