just out of curiosity...

[NoOsH]

how come we tune the high c to a c, and not a b like guitars... just wondering if anyone knows the answer

[Phalanx]

some guy decided bass should be tuned in 4ths.

ONLY 4ths

[Sablate McNuff]

It's probably more to do with the fact that bassists are idiots and the concept of major thirds baffle us to no end.

If not that, it's just to preserve the concept of tuning in fourths for playability sake. Guitars are tuned with that 3rd because it not only achieves the octave E but creates many more open chords.

[Gopherbassist]

You can tune to whatever you want.

[burtonbassist_101]

You can tune to whatever you want.

this.

i, however, still tune it to a high c, i like the fourthness of it all.

[Sablate McNuff]

You can tune to whatever you want.

He was referencing standard tuning?

In any case, B, D, A, C, G, Bb is a fantastic tuning.

Alternating flattened thirds/fifths ftw.

[Akira]

Sablate (I forget your name, sorry) pretty much has it. The third facilitates big chords, but on bass it really makes more sense to tune straight.

[Sablate McNuff]

You can call me Joe Wells in person. Everybody else does. No idea why nobody uses just my first name.

[SkaRobotArmy]

joelle?

[EADGC]

B is more convenient for guitar for open and barre chords

The majority of people don't play chords on bass so it's not necessary, plus it's easier to keep it in straight 4ths. Also you get more range with 4ths.

/thread

[Jimbobntnr]

[paraphrases what everyone else has already said.]

[:amaze:]

[paraphrases what everyone else has already said.]

123




:amaze:

[Gopherbassist]

He was referencing standard tuning?
In that case, because some guy several centuries decided to make up a bunch of cockamamy rules about instruments, tuning, and music in general and told everyone "Alright, here are the rules. If you don't follow these rules EXACTLY, you are not making music." Since everyone were a bunch of stupid dipshits, they all though "Oh no! That's not what I'm doing! I better start doing it quick so that I can actually make music!"

[EADGC]

In that case, because some guy several centuries decided to make up a bunch of cockamamy rules about instruments, tuning, and music in general and told everyone "Alright, here are the rules. If you don't follow these rules EXACTLY, you are not making music." Since everyone were a bunch of stupid dippoops, they all though "Oh no! That's not what I'm doing! I better start doing it quick so that I can actually make music!"

No one person made any "rules". They're called conventions and you find them in pretty much everything in life.

L.

[Akira]

In that case, because some guy several centuries decided to make up a bunch of cockamamy rules about instruments, tuning, and music in general and told everyone "Alright, here are the rules. If you don't follow these rules EXACTLY, you are not making music." Since everyone were a bunch of stupid dippoops, they all though "Oh no! That's not what I'm doing! I better start doing it quick so that I can actually make music!"

The extended range bass hasn't existed for centuries. Nice try to get in a non-sequitor attack on theory though. Lemme guess, building off the idea of people who have come before you, like, totally suppresses your creativity, amirite?

If you really think Bach sat down and wrote arbitrary musical conventions and then told everyone else they had to follow them and they did, you really just need to stop talking.

[Gopherbassist]

No one person made any "rules". They're called conventions and you find them in pretty much everything in life.

L.
It's an exagerration.

[Moon Flavor]

omg you guys suck balls the noob just got raped by two people for making a joke

[mrcarter]

So... bass isn't weird because we didn't follow guitar, guitar is the switch
The bass exists to double cello parts (usually a counterpoint bassline) an octave down, hence double bass
Ideally that'd put us in the same tuning as a cello, but tuning in fifths relies on too much stretching on upright bass
Fourths still gives a patterned tuning, and also along with fifths (and octaves), are the only truly in-tune intervals

[Son of Magni]

...Fourths still gives a patterned tuning, and also along with fifths (and octaves), are the only truly in-tune intervals

:lol:

[mrcarter]

:lol:

harmonic series ftw
equal temperment pushes the other ones as much as 40 cents out (give or take)
wonder why its so harder to get your b string in tune then the rest? it's more in tune or less in tune depending on what key you're playing in

[EADGC]

So... bass isn't weird because we didn't follow guitar, guitar is the switch
The bass exists to double cello parts (usually a counterpoint bassline) an octave down, hence double bass
Ideally that'd put us in the same tuning as a cello, but tuning in fifths relies on too much stretching on upright bass
Fourths still gives a patterned tuning, and also along with fifths (and octaves), are the only truly in-tune intervals

Well a few things

Lutes and Ouds have used similar tunings to guitar for hundreds of years

I had always thought that equal temperament was the most "in-tune" system to date, and everything was equally in/out. I think you're thinking of something else.

If you're thinking of the harmonic series however, you're right in saying that some intervals are more out than others but you'll likely only notice that when you're playing overtones

But really, it doesn't matter on a fretless instrument anyway since you tune the notes yourself.

[mrcarter]

Well a few things

Lutes and Ouds have used similar tunings to guitar for hundreds of years

I had always thought that equal temperament was the most "in-tune" system to date, and everything was equally in/out. I think you're thinking of something else.

If you're thinking of the harmonic series however, you're right in saying that some intervals are more out than others but you'll likely only notice that when you're playing overtones

But really, it doesn't matter on a fretless instrument anyway since you tune the notes yourself.

The upright is only an example as the precursor to the electric bass, which is usually fretted so temperament becomes an issue.

You can find a chart of difference between Equal and Just Termeraments here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
It'll basically tell you that in equal temperament, unison, P4, P5, and P8 all have negligable differences (between 0 and +-1.96 cents) from just temperament (as they occur naturally).
Other intervals stretch much further, i.e. m7 with a difference of -31.91 cents.
The most direct application of this is that B as the root of a B major scale and B as the 7th of a C major scale actually vibrate at different frequencies.

[Son of Magni]

The upright is only an example as the precursor to the electric bass, which is usually fretted so temperament becomes an issue.

You can find a chart of difference between Equal and Just Termeraments here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
It'll basically tell you that in equal temperament, unison, P4, P5, and P8 all have negligable differences (between 0 and +-1.96 cents) from just temperament (as they occur naturally).
Other intervals stretch much further, i.e. m7 with a difference of -31.91 cents.
The most direct application of this is that B as the root of a B major scale and B as the 7th of a C major scale actually vibrate at different frequencies.

EADGC, you're getting a lesson in music theory here. I hope you're listening :lol:

[EADGC]

The upright is only an example as the precursor to the electric bass, which is usually fretted so temperament becomes an issue.


The issue isn't the system of temperament though, it's the frets themselves. With a fretted instrument the point is to intonate it as close to equal temperament as possible (unless it's a microtonal fretted instrument, which are very rare). The problem is that it's practically impossible to have a fretted instrument perfectly in tune all up and down the neck, especially if it has a uniform scale length (I believe fanned frets are better for this, though)


You can find a chart of difference between Equal and Just Termeraments here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
It'll basically tell you that in equal temperament, unison, P4, P5, and P8 all have negligable differences (between 0 and +-1.96 cents) from just temperament (as they occur naturally).
Other intervals stretch much further, i.e. m7 with a difference of -31.91 cents.

I see your point, but I disagree with the statement that P1 P4 P5 P8 are the only perfectly in-tune intervals.

It's like arguing that Equal Temperament is out of tune compared to Just Intonation. I mean, you could, but the only basis behind that is that Just came first. Since Equal is now the standard in the West, it seems more like it's the other way around.


The most direct application of this is that B as the root of a B major scale and B as the 7th of a C major scale actually vibrate at different frequencies.

If we're talking Equal Temperament I don't see how, pitches are fixed regardless of context.

[Akira]

This is hilarious. Really hilarious.

[EADGC]

This is nerdy. Really nerdy.

The funny part is that we learned about this in the same class.

[mrcarter]

The issue isn't the system of temperament though, it's the frets themselves. With a fretted instrument the point is to intonate it as close to equal temperament as possible (unless it's a microtonal fretted instrument, which are very rare). The problem is that it's practically impossible to have a fretted instrument perfectly in tune all up and down the neck, especially if it has a uniform scale length (I believe fanned frets are better for this, though)



I see your point, but I disagree with the statement that P1 P4 P5 P8 are the only perfectly in-tune intervals.

It's like arguing that Equal Temperament is out of tune compared to Just Intonation. I mean, you could, but the only basis behind that is that Just came first. Since Equal is now the standard in the West, it seems more like it's the other way around.



If we're talking Equal Temperament I don't see how, pitches are fixed regardless of context.

Just Temperament has to be what's considered in-tune, not because it came first in Western History, but because it's what occurs naturally through the harmonic series, which is where intervals are derrived.
I'm dropping the fretted thing because I really don't know what we're discussing/arguing, you've kind of lost me.
P1 and P8 in ET are 100% accurate in relation to JT; technically P4 and P5 aren't, but they are negligibally close.
As for different pitches, how's this...

Lets say for the purpose of this that C is equal to 1000 cents
In ET, that would place D, G, and B (M2, P5, and M7) at 1200, 1700, and 2100 cents respectively.
In JT, the cents would be 1203.91, 1701.96, and 2088.3.

Now if we were to take another scale that has the same notes but starting on a different root, we see something interesting.
In ET with a root of D we'd have the same pitches.
But in JT...
D 1203.91
G 1701.95
B 2088.27
C 2172.736

To give the same octave as our original C, we subtract 1200, making it 972.736. C isn't actually part of the scale (wasn't thinking when I started the maths) but if the minor 7th interval were in tune it would resonate at that pitch.

To summarize...

D is 1203.91 = = 1203.91
G is 1701.96 =/= 1701.95 (still a perfect interval, changes negligably)
B is 2088.3 =/= 2088.27 (gap broadens)
C is 1000 =/= 972.736

Conclusive yet?

[mrcarter]

The funny part is that we learned about this in the same class.

Rob Simms ftw

[EADGC]

Just Temperament has to be what's considered in-tune, not because it came first in Western History, but because it's what occurs naturally through the harmonic series, which is where intervals are derrived.


And I still say that since Equal Temperament is the standard system in the West (and what we base tuning off of), most harmonics are out of tune. If Just Intonation was the way to do it, that's what we would be still using but we as a society have agreed that Equal Temperament makes more sense (and I maintain that it does personally)

In other words I completely understand, but I disagree.


I'm dropping the fretted thing because I really don't know what we're discussing/arguing, you've kind of lost me.

I'm just stating that whether the instrument is fretted or fretless has nothing to do with the system of temperament it's using (unless it's fretless specifically to achieve microtones). Fretted instruments are out of tune simply because that's the nature of a fretted instrument.


P1 and P8 in ET are 100% accurate in relation to JT; technically P4 and P5 aren't, but they are negligibally close.

As for different pitches, how's this...

Lets say for the purpose of this that C is equal to 1000 cents
In ET, that would place D, G, and B (M2, P5, and M7) at 1200, 1700, and 2100 cents respectively.
In JT, the cents would be 1203.91, 1701.96, and 2088.3.

Now if we were to take another scale that has the same notes but starting on a different root, we see something interesting.
In ET with a root of D we'd have the same pitches.
But in JT...
D 1203.91
G 1701.95
B 2088.27
C 2172.736

To give the same octave as our original C, we subtract 1200, making it 972.736. C isn't actually part of the scale (wasn't thinking when I started the maths) but if the minor 7th interval were in tune it would resonate at that pitch.

To summarize...

D is 1203.91 = = 1203.91
G is 1701.96 =/= 1701.95 (still a perfect interval, changes negligably)
B is 2088.3 =/= 2088.27 (gap broadens)
C is 1000 =/= 972.736

Conclusive yet?

But you're talking as if we use Just Intonation, which we don't.

[EADGC]

Rob Simms ftw

I don't think I would have survived that class if I didn't have a laptop, but he is a good guy and also plays sitar and oud which is pretty much the definition of awesome.

[mrcarter]

And I still say that since Equal Temperament is the standard system in the West (and what we base tuning off of), most harmonics are out of tune. If Just Intonation was the way to do it, that's what we would be still using but we as a society have agreed that Equal Temperament makes more sense (and I maintain that it does personally)

In other words I completely understand, but I disagree.



I'm just stating that whether the instrument is fretted or fretless has nothing to do with the system of temperament it's using (unless it's fretless specifically to achieve microtones). Fretted instruments are out of tune simply because that's the nature of a fretted instrument.



But you're talking as if we use Just Intonation, which we don't.

I'm fully aware we don't use Just Temperament. I'm just proving Equal is woefully out-of-tune. It took nearly a century for people to adjust to hearing it when the switch was made.
Fretted instruments being out of tune is actually a symptom of this.

[EADGC]

I'm fully aware we don't use Just Temperament. I'm just proving Equal is woefully out-of-tune. It took nearly a century for people to adjust to hearing it when the switch was made.
Fretted instruments being out of tune is actually a symptom of this.

They're both out of tune with each other yes, but I don't see how can you say Equal is simply "out of tune" when that's the standard that we tune to. That just doesn't make sense to me.

"Out of tune with Just Intonation and the Harmonic Series" - yes

"Just plain out of tune" - nah


But I have a feeling we're just going in circles now.


As for fretted instruments I don't see what that has to do with temperament at all. Fretted instrument makers (usually) strive to tune perfectly with ET but it's just not possible - some sacrifices have to be made.

[mrcarter]

Yeah I'm pretty happy with all the maths I just spouted but there really isn't any further way for either of us to make a point, ahah.
But for anyone who's ever said "man, **** this B string, I just can't get it to sound in tune", it's because its a third away from the G instead of a P4. Which is one of the few hangover's left from switching to ET.

[Raayl]

oh my god. that is all

[katana_manatee]

This thread just made my headache a whole lot worse...

[EADGC]

Yeah I'm pretty happy with all the maths I just spouted but there really isn't any further way for either of us to make a point, ahah.
But for anyone who's ever said "man, **** this B string, I just can't get it to sound in tune", it's because its a third away from the G instead of a P4. Which is one of the few hangover's left from switching to ET.

It doesn't help that it's a bitch to intonate, especially on acoustic guitars.

[mrcarter]

It doesn't help that it's a bitch to intonate, especially on acoustic guitars.

Ahah, tru dat
BTW we clearly spend too much time on this forum with all the back-and-forth in this thread alone

[Son of Magni]

I don't think I would have survived that class if I didn't have a laptop, but he is a good guy and also plays sitar and oud which is pretty much the definition of awesome.

Hey, I play sitar and oud! Can I be awesome too :amaze:

[EADGC]

Hey, I play sitar and oud! Can I be awesome too :amaze:

Hey I didn't know that

yes of course you can.

[EADGC]

Ahah, tru dat
BTW we clearly spend too much time on this forum with all the back-and-forth in this thread alone

School starts in a week. I'm enjoying not having a life while I can.

[mrcarter]

School starts in a week. I'm enjoying not having a life while I can.

Apparently cultures II sucks even more than cultures I did

[EADGC]

Apparently cultures II sucks even more than cultures I did

I really hope that's not true, because Cultures I sucked a lot. I hear II is more centered around Western classical music, so if that's the case I figure at least it will be more familiar to me.

Cultures in my opinion is a pretty unnecessary course anyway. Some of it is interesting but I doubt a lot of people would take it if it weren't mandatory.

What I want to know is why this year it's a 6 credit instead of 9 for the same amount of class time.

But on the plus side: it's not FACS.

[Raayl]

i have to see a concert for this arts class i'm taking

:lol: it doesn't count unless its "professional"

so i asked the teacher, pray-tell what is a professional concert?

he said jazz or orchestra.

i walked out. woot new professor please.

[funkyhoney]

i have to see a concert for this arts class i'm taking

:lol: it doesn't count unless its "professional"

so i asked the teacher, pray-tell what is a professional concert?

he said jazz or orchestra.

i walked out. woot new professor please.

I bet you didn't.

[mrcarter]

I really hope that's not true, because Cultures I sucked a lot. I hear II is more centered around Western classical music, so if that's the case I figure at least it will be more familiar to me.

Cultures in my opinion is a pretty unnecessary course anyway. Some of it is interesting but I doubt a lot of people would take it if it weren't mandatory.

What I want to know is why this year it's a 6 credit instead of 9 for the same amount of class time.

But on the plus side: it's not FACS.

No tutorial this time around, man

[EADGC]

No tutorial this time around, man

Not like we really did anything in tutorial or anyone actually even went but... sweet.