Death of SUVs

[132WalrusesInMexico]

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080604-General-Motors-Others-Decide-the-SUV-is-Dead/

Call me what you will, but I think the high gas prices (they aren't even that high in the US compared to a lot of places) have done some good in deterring people from buying SUVs. People buying more efficient vehicles is a major step in the US becoming more environmentally friendly.

What do you guys think of SUVs?

[dei]

I hate them. Every time I seem someone driving alone in their SUV, I want to follow them home and slash their tires and do other very mean things! They're so big and useless. It's not bothered me much lately but only because I found out SUV owners are paying over $100 to fill their tanks.

[JohnXDoe]

thank god i've always hated them especially in Los Angeles where they aren't needed. and even then, most people don't need them wherever they live. they are only big on the outside really because the giant seats take up much room inside unless removed. so unless you have a practical purpose for all that room with no seats a good station wagon makes more sense, is more comfy, and gets better MPG's

good riddance to them i hope they really go for good.

[132WalrusesInMexico]

I hate them. Every time I seem someone driving alone in their SUV, I want to follow them home and slash their tires and do other very mean things! They're so big and useless. It's not bothered me much lately but only because I found out SUV owners are paying over $100 to fill their tanks.
Yeah, but that $100 in gas is converted into large carbon emissions. The sad thing is is that people are willing to pay $100 to fill their stupidly large tank.

[dei]

Yeah, but that $100 in gas is converted into large carbon emissions. The sad thing is is that people are willing to pay $100 to fill their stupidly large tank.

True but I'm hoping that eventually the cost of driving an SUV will be so high that they'll abandon them completely.

[Berner]

I plan to buy a 1/2 ton truck with a V8 once I start working. **** SUV's, trucks are where it's at.

[Steerpike]

**** SUVs. They're almost as ugly as the Aztek, their emissions are atrocious, and driving them anywhere except country roads is like driving a Panzer. The last thing we need is some asshole in an SUV driving drunk and taking out about 5 other cars before he notices there's a Hyundai stuck in his undercarriage.

Honestly, if I wanted to project the image that driving an SUV gives you, I would get a huge tattoo on my face.

[Mister_Che]

In other news, Texas and it's overwhelmingly large SUV and Truck driving population secedes from the US.

[Jude]

**** SUVs, I'll be glad to see them go.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

SUV's are a perfect example of how people aren't willing to hold themselves back even one tiny bit for the sake of their planet.

It's good that people are starting to ditch them, but at the same time I don't think we're going to leave even one drop of oil in the ground, and we're going to burn it all eventually anyway. SUV's might make the oil apocalypse come sooner than it would otherwise, but it's coming either way.

[stevensonmat2]

Suv's arent just going to die; the current trend of hybridization will see them slimmed down and streamlined into suv/car/van crossovers like they are making now.

I currently drive a 4 runner 94, and though it only gets about 17 mpg, I need the extra space for carrying my drums and other cargo.

[beso negro]

my SUV is actually pretty ****ing sweet. And yeah i also need it for my drumset so mind your own business.

[stevensonmat2]

Also, my sweet suv's 4 wheel drive allowed me to go on the power line trails in town so I could smoke pot and screw without worrying about my parents or the cops. The score runner has been invaluable to me.

[Steerpike]

And yeah i also need it for my drumset so mind your own business.

Using your SUV to do things is like a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Doesn't change the fact that they look like ****.

[spitfirejunky]

Our SUV is more fuel-efficient than our sedan.

I'm against gas guzzlers, if anything.

[stevensonmat2]

pssssh, maybe those big honkin american suvs, those are ugly. My jap made 94 4-runner is a beauty. Most american vehicles are ugly though.

[ringworm]

SUV's arent the problem, tbo, but its super duper cool to hate them :)

people seem to ignore the slim margin between cars & trucks mpg average

if SUV's get 17-25, then a car should automatically get double or triple, but that isnt the case most of the time

especially when most SUV's ride on platforms shared by cars


all i mean is by only eliminating SUV's, the real problems stay the same

[BrendonsHomeMovies]

I drive an SUV. I paid 600 dollars for it. I dont like to drive it, for example, my sister wants me to drive her to quiznos, roundtrip 3 miles. Okay starting my car twice is like half a gallon, and I get about 12 miles to the gallon, thats like 3/4 of a GALLON THREE FOURTHS ****

[stevensonmat2]

do you drive a model T?

[DBoons Ghost]

I have no problem with SUVs. Some people have big families and big needs.

You guys are stupid to hate them. There is no way you can go shopping for a family of 6 in a sub compact car. They tend to use the same amount of gas as any other vehicle. My brother-in-law's Chevy Surburban gets 18 mpg city and around 25 highway. Pretty normal. We all use it to car pool when we all travel. It's awesome. PLus we never have to rent a van to move a piece of furniture.

Hummers are excessive for other reasons than being gus guzzling oil drinkers. I can appreciate the excess perspective. As in, a single dude buying an Escalade because chicks like them and you can put spinnin' twennies on em. That's stupid.

Not one Hummer I've ever seen has ever been off-road. Kinda stupid.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Meh this won't kill SUV's, good thing too. It'll hurt them for a bit, but won't kill them.

[Sunshine]

**** a bunch of SUVs and trucks, but only if they're unnecessary.

If someone has a big-*** family, like, more than 3 kids, then yeah, they're not going to squeeze them into a Toyota Corolla.
If you're a farmer, it's pretty hard to haul **** with car.
If you go off-roading [like, real off-roading, not just off the pavement] ALL THE DAMN TIME, like, hardcore camping and ****, then yeah -- a bigger vehicle would be pretty necessary.

But the majority of SUVs/trucks are entirely unnecessary.
I drive a 2001 Honda Civic LX. Manual transmission. Straight off the lot, no mods or anything.
I can..
-Fit almost everything I own into it
-Drive up and over the Rockies [even with the extra weight of everything I own in it + trunk rack for my bicycle]
-Drive up unpaved mountains
-Drive off the road
-Carry a drumset + either one other person or possibly other equipment
-Sleep

Plus I get 35 mpg on a bad day.




And I want to key each and every hummer I see. I don't, but God damnit do I want to.

[Iscariot]

suvs are dope when you spend most of your time in the woods

trucks are good for getting around town and they're fun to drive

[WhoDidTheElf]

Honda Civic also only makes a whopping 115 hp.

[Iscariot]

haha honda civics are such pos cars

my buddy owns one that he drives when he's drunk because he doesn't care if he wrecks it

[Sunshine]

So? $40 for gas every 3 weeks or so when driving around regularly >>> any **** truck/SUV you can come up with.

[Iscariot]

good thing a woman's opinion on automobiles is worthless or i might be compelled to argue

you own a honda civic 'nuff said

[Sunshine]

Aww, jealous much?

[Iscariot]

rofl jealous of a civic god no

i would rather ride a bicycle

[Sunshine]

'k. You just keep on wasting money on your big stupid vehicle then.

[Iscariot]

k sounds like a plan

[DBoons Ghost]

My next car could be a Civic or an Altima.

Why you dissin a vehicle choice?

[132WalrusesInMexico]

But the majority of SUVs/trucks are entirely unnecessary.
I drive a 2001 Honda Civic LX. Manual transmission. Straight off the lot, no mods or anything.
I can..
-Fit almost everything I own into it
-Drive up and over the Rockies [even with the extra weight of everything I own in it + trunk rack for my bicycle]
-Drive up unpaved mountains
-Drive off the road
-Carry a drumset + either one other person or possibly other equipment
-Sleep

Plus I get 35 mpg on a bad day.




And I want to key each and every hummer I see. I don't, but God damnit do I want to.
I have a Honda Civic as well. I get about 40 mpg. I've fit a drumset in it and I had spare room.

I've never had a problem with that car and there is almost 200,000 miles on it. I think I will own a Honda for the rest of my life.

[GreyHam]

i never saw the point for most people to have SUV's when estates have just as much room

obviously, for some people they are a neccesity, but as a status symbol all i see is a glowing flashing 'wanker' label

[dei]

If I ever drive I will drive a Smart car.

[132WalrusesInMexico]

Smart Cars are really cool. I saw on the news that they did really well in the crash tests which is surprising. Whenever I mention a Smart Car people are like "those are dumb, if I hit a dog I would die because they're so unsafe."

[dei]

Whenever I mention a Smart car people openly question my sexuality.

[beso negro]

you guys have really small drumsets

[Volumnius Flush]

In other news, Texas and it's overwhelmingly large SUV and Truck driving population secedes from the US.

Yeah. We tried that about a hundred and fifty years ago, and the Yanks fought tooth and nail to make us come back.

[Eliminator]

stupid move on the yanks' part

[dei]

Eliminator and I agree on something.

[Volumnius Flush]

stupid move on the yanks' part

Or they knew something that you don't.

[Mr. Ron]

Anyone who has an SUV, and lives in the suburbs or the city can't justify owning one while a station wagon-like vehicle can do everything they need.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Anyone who has an SUV, and lives in the suburbs or the city can't justify owning one while a station wagon-like vehicle can do everything they need.

Yeah they can. It's simple, they want one.

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah they can. It's simple, they want one.

terrible excuse.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Why?

[Mr. Ron]

Why?

There's no justification behind it.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Yeah there is, they want it.

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah there is, they want it.

Thats not a justification. Thats simply an unfounded desire.

[WhoDidTheElf]

That's justification in a lot of people's eyes. While maybe poor justification for some issues, it is nonetheless.

[Mr. Ron]

A lot of those people are dumb southerners. js js

[WhoDidTheElf]

Well it's the same reason to buy a sports car, or a classic car.

[Danish]

Yeah there is, they want it.

As Mick Jagger says, "You can't always get what you want." I want a solid gold toilet, but it's just not in the cards, now is it?

[je suis un beau chapeau]

cant anybody ever just mind there own ****ing business

[Iskandar]

"I want it" isn't much of an excuse for shitting all over the planet.

[je suis un beau chapeau]

the planet is going to kill you idiot i hate you

[WhoDidTheElf]

As Mick Jagger says, "You can't always get what you want." I want a solid gold toilet, but it's just not in the cards, now is it?

If you can, and you want it, why not?

[Jude]

Responsibility?

[1338 h4x0r]

If you can, and you want it, why not?

Because SUVs waste resources that are strained as it is, ****ing drive up the cost of anything that involves transportation in doing so and look ugly as ****.

That's why

[WhoDidTheElf]

Because SUVs waste resources that are strained as it is, ****ing drive up the cost of anything that involves transportation in doing so and look ugly as ****.

That's why

Most new suvs get upwards of 25 MPG...

Plus, the idea that oil is strained is highly debatable.

[Danish]

If you can, and you want it, why not?

Because it's incredibly ignorant and self-centred. Which I can't really tell anyone not to be, I suppose.

[1338 h4x0r]

Most new suvs get upwards of 25 MPG...

When you have cities like Atlanta where the sum of the length of all commutes in a single would reach the Sun and then some, not to mention India and China glomming onto our kind of post-industrial lifestyle, 25 MPG seems kind of piddly


Plus, the idea that oil is strained is highly debatable.

Evidence plz. Most producing countries are already past their peak.

[Danish]

The internal combustion engine will be obsolete within 20 years.

[Seafroggys]

I love it how these new SUV's boast "25 mpgs OMG".

My family has never owned a vehicle in my lifetime that got less then 30 new. In fact, since the late 70s for that matter.

EDIT: I lied. We got an old Dodge Grand Caravan for a few years, but got rid of it because it was such a piece of ****.

[Against Miik!]

I don't know who pays over 100$ to fill up their SUV I only pay like 65$, which still isn't great I guess but whatever.

I bought an SUV a few years ago, but not because it was cool or because I like being high up off the ground or some dumb reason. I needed a car to get to work, and somebody hit me so my first car was totaled. I needed a new one. I found a great deal on a Ford Explorer, and I needed a deal, because I was only looking to pay cash. Also, I need it to take all my crap back and forth between school. Well, I don't NEED it for that, but its nice.

So I bought it when gas was still in the lower 2$ range. I never expected this to happen, and the money I saved by getting a good deal on the car has most certainly been spent a few times over on overpriced gas.

Evidence plz. Most producing countries are already past their peak.

This may be true, but the absolute fact of the matter is that gas prices are not based on supply and demand. They are based a lot on speculation, and they are growing so fast in the US because of trade deficits and currency deflation etc...

[wartomods]

rofl jealous of a civic god no

i would rather ride a bicycle

**** are you mocking with my bicycle, jesus, i love my bicycle

[WhoDidTheElf]

When you have cities like Atlanta where the sum of the length of all commutes in a single would reach the Sun and then some, not to mention India and China glomming onto our kind of post-industrial lifestyle, 25 MPG seems kind of piddly

That's average, hybrid SUVs get like 35+ in the city.

Evidence plz. Most producing countries are already past their peak.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/

Scroll down to oil reserves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

http://www.gregcroft.com/oilsupply.ivnu

A lot of other things I've read have stated that Oil peaks for the Middle Eastern countries have occurred, but Canada and Venezuela have the largest supplies on Earth. Both which are only now being tapped.

[BigBadBooDooDady]

I drive a Jeep Cherokee, which a few weeks ago averaged a tank of gas with 23.5 miles to the gallon. My wife's Grand Am averaged almost 25 miles to the gallon a week later.

Yeah, it's those dang SUV's.... getting 2mpg's less than our car. :smash:

I have no plans of getting rid of either car... She wants a Toyota Yariss, but even at 40 miles to the gallon, with a cheap monthly payment ($200/month) it would still cost more to pay for the new car and less gas then it would be to just keep driving my Jeep (which was payed off the day I drove it home). That's not even considering the increased insurance on a new car.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

That's average, hybrid SUVs get like 35+ in the city.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/

Scroll down to oil reserves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

http://www.gregcroft.com/oilsupply.ivnu

A lot of other things I've read have stated that Oil peaks for the Middle Eastern countries have occurred, but Canada and Venezuela have the largest supplies on Earth. Both which are only now being tapped.

Man, the first thing you need to do when you see a study saying anything is look who paid for it. The only person they quote is a consultant to the oil and gas industry, and they endlessly refer to "peak oil theorists" as if they're UFO believers.


I've covered peak oil in a few different courses in school, and the only way it's a lie is if oil companies are sitting on huge discoveries they haven't told us about. Oil is getting harder and harder to find, and whether we're a few years before it or after it is subject to endless debate and really doesn't matter.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Man, the first thing you need to do when you see a study saying anything is look who paid for it. The only person they quote is a consultant to the oil and gas industry, and they endlessly refer to "peak oil theorists" as if they're UFO believers.


I've covered peak oil in a few different courses in school, and the only way it's a lie is if oil companies are sitting on huge discoveries they haven't told us about. Oil is getting harder and harder to find, and whether we're a few years before it or after it is subject to endless debate and really doesn't matter.

One thing I've learned in Poli Sci is that lobbyists don't like to cook the books for Congress or the bureaucracies, which can refer to any of these if they feel like it.

But either way, it doesn't take away from the fact that I said it's still hotly debated...

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/

A study by Cambridge Energy Research ... which was founded by an energy company ... ok, I'm impressed :rolleyes:


A lot of other things I've read have stated that Oil peaks for the Middle Eastern countries have occurred, but Canada and Venezuela have the largest supplies on Earth. Both which are only now being tapped.

Apparently Canada has a proven 174 billion barrels of oil

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/oil.html

If, according to your MSNBC source, the world uses 85 million barrels of oil per day (that source is already more than a year old and the figure has probably increased somewhat but w/e), then we use something over 31 billion barrels per year ... which would deplete Canada's reserves in a little more than five and a half years.

Sure, worldwide peak oil is probably coming in a few decades. But it's time to get cracking on alternative energy now because the sweeping changes necessary will take many years on their own

One thing I've learned in Poli Sci is that lobbyists don't like to cook the books for Congress or the bureaucracies, which can refer to any of these if they feel like it.

But either way, it doesn't take away from the fact that I said it's still hotly debated...

The theory of evolution is "hotly debated", too. There's a sucker born every minute.

[WhoDidTheElf]

A study by Cambridge Energy Research ... which was founded by an energy company ... ok, I'm impressed :rolleyes:

Who else is going to do it? They're in the business.

Ad-hominem much btw.

Apparently Canada has a proven 174 billion barrels of oil

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/oil.html

If, according to your MSNBC source, the world uses 85 million barrels of oil per day (that source is already more than a year old and the figure has probably increased somewhat but w/e), then we use something over 31 billion barrels per year ... which would deplete Canada's reserves in a little more than five and a half years.

Wiki says otherwise. 182 years :/

Sure, worldwide peak oil is probably coming in a few decades. But it's time to get cracking on alternative energy now because the sweeping changes necessary will take many years on their own

The problem is we don't have the technology to implement any long term change yet. The technology needs to be developed first.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

my mom drives an suv

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

One thing I've learned in Poli Sci is that lobbyists don't like to cook the books for Congress or the bureaucracies, which can refer to any of these if they feel like it.

But either way, it doesn't take away from the fact that I said it's still hotly debated...

I don't consider manipulation of the facts to be "hot debate". When neither side accepts the other's figures, it's not even at the stage where valid debate can take place. On one hand you have the oil companies lying through their teeth and trying to paint the rosiest picture imaginable, and on the other you have people trying to raise awareness and needing to stand out. Everything from publication bias (ie studies that do not sound the alarm one way or the other are unlikely to get published, even though these studies are usually the best-done) to who commissioned the study can lead to errors one way or the other.

Obviously you know which side of the fence I stand on, but this post isn't meant to attack either side. I think there are liars on both sides, and the truth is somewhere in the middle ground - there will probably not be a catastrophic crash of oil supply, but at the same time, we need to start looking at alternative sources before the price of oil really skyrockets. You might hate me for saying this, but oil is still relatively cheap compared to how high it's going to go if the world gets caught with its pants down.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

my brothers wife drives an suv

and my sister and her husband drive suvs

****ing doctors wtf

[1338 h4x0r]

Who else is going to do it? They're in the business.

Neutral third-party researchers

Wiki says otherwise. 182 years :/

Wikipedia, especially with respect to controversial issues, is of course bulletproof


The problem is we don't have the technology to implement any long term change yet. The technology needs to be developed first.

There's plenty of alternative technology that works now. We're just too lazy to use it.

http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=10987

[WhoDidTheElf]

Neutral third-party researchers

Like?

Wikipedia, especially with respect to controversial issues, is of course bulletproof

Got their stats from "Oil & Gas Journal, 2007." It's sited right there.


There's plenty of alternative technology that works now. We're just too lazy to use it.

http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=10987

Article doesn't give any fixes, just says "renewable energy sources." Which is cute, except the problem is, none of them are cost effective, or efficient in any form so far...

I don't consider manipulation of the facts to be "hot debate". When neither side accepts the other's figures, it's not even at the stage where valid debate can take place. On one hand you have the oil companies lying through their teeth and trying to paint the rosiest picture imaginable, and on the other you have people trying to raise awareness and needing to stand out. Everything from publication bias (ie studies that do not sound the alarm one way or the other are unlikely to get published, even though these studies are usually the best-done) to who commissioned the study can lead to errors one way or the other.

Obviously you know which side of the fence I stand on, but this post isn't meant to attack either side. I think there are liars on both sides, and the truth is somewhere in the middle ground - there will probably not be a catastrophic crash of oil supply, but at the same time, we need to start looking at alternative sources before the price of oil really skyrockets. You might hate me for saying this, but oil is still relatively cheap compared to how high it's going to go if the world gets caught with its pants down.

I kind of doubt that the oil companies have grossly lied about the oil situation; they've had congressional hearings before, and if they were out right lying congress would throw a bitch fit.

[1338 h4x0r]

Like?

A physicist came up with this model (peak @ 2018) and a good deal of qualified people (outside industry) agree

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070330100802.htm

When you get your news from scientific, rather than political (or politicized) publications, the data tend to be better


Got their stats from "Oil & Gas Journal, 2007." It's sited right there.


LOL, look at their site's front page. It's clear that this is a publication with no political or economic ties.


Article doesn't give any fixes, just says "renewable energy sources." Which is cute, except the problem is, none of them are cost effective, or efficient in any form so far...


Here's some nitty gritty on alternative energy and conservation in Europe

http://www.odyssee-indicators.org/Publication/PDF/nr_portugal_2006.pdf

And I'd like you to qualify that not cost-effective/not efficient claim


I kind of doubt that the oil companies have grossly lied about the oil situation; they've had congressional hearings before, and if they were out right lying congress would throw a bitch fit.

The magical elves who run Exxon and Texaco would never lie to anyone!

Oops. Wrong

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501842.html

Keep digging that hole

[WhoDidTheElf]

A physicist came up with this model (peak @ 2018) and a good deal of qualified people (outside industry) agree

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070330100802.htm

When you get your news from scientific, rather than political (or politicized) publications, the data tend to be better

Only accounted for the middle east if I read correctly. Didn't say a peep about Canada or Venezuela.


LOL, look at their site's front page. It's clear that this is a publication with no political or economic ties.

1: The sight didn't look to terrible.
2: The fact it's an oil company doesn't mean it's wrong.

Here's some nitty gritty on alternative energy and conservation in Europe

http://www.odyssee-indicators.org/Publication/PDF/nr_portugal_2006.pdf

And I'd like you to qualify that not cost-effective/not efficient claim

After scrolling through it I didn't see any thing other than stats on Portugal, care to enlighten me on the article?
(Hydrogen Cars)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_7
That's a BMW with a 120,000$ base price tag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX
Honda with a 1-2 Million dollar price tag.
Couldn't really find any other's but that's about how they are.

(Electric Cars)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18205418/
300 mile range. Then you have to charge it for 24 hours. Woot~
Plus that's a "long range" car.
At any rate, most electric cars from what I hear get about 150 Miles/charge

The magical elves who run Exxon and Texaco would never lie to anyone!

Oops. Wrong

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501842.html

Keep digging that hole

That article just said they were in bed with Cheney if I'm not mistaken, not that they lied...

[dinosaurxbrocore]

THEY RAISED GAS PRICES THEYRE LYING TO US ALL

serisouyl

[1338 h4x0r]

Only accounted for the middle east if I read correctly. Didn't say a peep about Canada or Venezuela.

http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/giant/UHDSG_peak_oil.jpg

:lol:

That's a figure from the study, which takes Canadian and South American reserves into account.


1: The sight didn't look to terrible.
2: The fact it's an oil company doesn't mean it's wrong.


It had political material right there on the front page and when data are supplied by an oil company, it's time to kick the bullshit detectors into high gear.


After scrolling through it I didn't see any thing other than stats on Portugal, care to enlighten me on the article?
(Hydrogen Cars)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_7
That's a BMW with a 120,000$ base price tag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX
Honda with a 1-2 Million dollar price tag.
Couldn't really find any other's but that's about how they are.

(Electric Cars)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18205418/
300 mile range. Then you have to charge it for 24 hours. Woot~
Plus that's a "long range" car.
At any rate, most electric cars from what I hear get about 150 Miles/charge


Every post-industrial country but the US has pretty decent mass transit, which is the only efficient solution from an engineering perspective. Moot point. I'm talking about power generation.


That article just said they were in bed with Cheney if I'm not mistaken, not that they lied...

They said they didn't do something explicitly, and it turns out they did. This is called 'lying'.

[WhoDidTheElf]

http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/giant/UHDSG_peak_oil.jpg

:lol:

That's a figure from the study, which takes Canadian and South American reserves into account.

I see, still shows that it's up in the air. Wait how can this be from that study? Didn't the study say it would be around 2018 and that state it would be prior to 2015?

It had political material right there on the front page and when data are supplied by an oil company, it's time to kick the bullshit detectors into high gear.

Omg. Just because of that doesn't mean what they are saying is bull ****. I don't know how many times I have to say that.

Every post-industrial country but the US has pretty decent mass transit, which is the only efficient solution from an engineering perspective. Moot point. I'm talking about power generation.

Well...America is quite big and spread out...Think that ones been beaten to death in another thread.

And you mean like Nuclear energy or a new form of energy to power cars?

They said they didn't do something explicitly, and it turns out they did. This is called 'lying'.

Oooo they said that they didn't talk to Chenney but they did. Big deal, doesn't mean they're cooking the books.

[1338 h4x0r]

I see, still shows that it's up in the air. And who did this chart btw?

Physicist Fredrik Robelius. Here you can read the whole thing here

http://publications.uu.se/abstract.xsql?dbid=7625


Omg. Just because of that doesn't mean what they are saying is bull ****. I don't know how many times I have to say that.


They're usually full of **** about almost everything. Just giving you a heads-up.


Well...America is quite big and spread out...Think that ones been beaten to death in another thread.


Even then, most of the population is in an urban area. And the fact that the population is spread out doesn't suddenly make automobile-centric transportation any less of an engineering disaster. I mentioned Atlanta as a particularly bad example of transportation infrastructure earlier. Precisely


Residents of the 13-county metro area drove their cars — some 3 million of them — an estimated 115.6 million miles a day in 1999, according to the Atlanta Regional Commission. That distance, experts say, is equal to a trip from Earth to the sun and part way back, and it's projected to grow to at least 158 million miles a day by 2025.


(source: http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2001/2001-01-31-atlanta-pollution.htm)

Three million people and 115.6 million miles a day. If the road system of the Atlanta metro area were a computer algorithm, it would have a complexity worse than O(n^4) ... which in plain terms is called "****ing unacceptable".


Oooo they said that they didn't talk to Chenney but they did. Big deal, doesn't mean they're cooking the books.

If by 'talk' you mean 'conspire', then yes.

[ringworm]

i'd be curious how many times someone like Mr Ron has jumped in his car to go to the store just for a soda, or got bored and rode around

then talk about how terrible an excuse it is for someone to buy a vehicle because they want it more than they actually needed it

there is so much more to solving fuel problems than banning SUV's

[Mr. Ron]

i'd be curious how many times someone like Mr Ron has jumped in his car to go to the store just for a soda, or got bored and rode around

then talk about how terrible an excuse it is for someone to buy a vehicle because they want it more than they actually needed it

there is so much more to solving fuel problems than banning SUV's

I live with in walking distance of a quick-e-mart :/

[spitfirejunky]

i'd be curious how many times someone like Mr Ron has jumped in his car to go to the store just for a soda, or got bored and rode around

then talk about how terrible an excuse it is for someone to buy a vehicle because they want it more than they actually needed it

there is so much more to solving fuel problems than banning SUV's

Like making fuel-efficient SUVs.......................

[Against Miik!]

i'd be curious how many times someone like Mr Ron has jumped in his car to go to the store just for a soda, or got bored and rode around

then talk about how terrible an excuse it is for someone to buy a vehicle because they want it more than they actually needed it

there is so much more to solving fuel problems than banning SUV's

Yeah this is me basically :wave:

Do as I say not as I do I suppose

[Mr. Ron]

Plus even if I did that, my car gets close to 35MPG, so it wouldn't be the same as getting into an SUV that gets like, 18 miles to the gallon.

[Against Miik!]

Mine gets 22 wooo

[RNR]

Banning SUVs would be silly. Requiring automakers to build better engines that don't waste so much fuel would be the way to go. Although it's more American to just ban it if you don't like it.

[Mr. Ron]

I think you should have to get a special license if you want to own a large truck and you don't live in an area that needs such a vehicle.

[Hababi]

Would that really have any positive effect? I mean it's not as if someone who wants a big truck only to impress their friends is going to say "DARNIT, I NEED A LICENSE! GUESS IT'S A FUEL EFFICIENT HYBRID AFTER ALL"

[Mr. Ron]

Would that really have any positive effect? I mean it's not as if someone who wants a big truck only to impress their friends is going to say "DARNIT, I NEED A LICENSE! GUESS IT'S A FUEL EFFICIENT HYBRID AFTER ALL"

No, people like that will be exterminated by my death squads.

[Hababi]

No, people like that will be exterminated by my death squads.

That does no good.

Much better to send them to a work camp in Alaska.

[Mr. Ron]

The force is strong with this one.

[Iskandar]

The force is strong with this one.And what happened after Darth Vader said that? Han Solo came blazing out of the sky in the Millennium Falcon, fastest ship in the galaxy, and sent Vader spinning into the infinite void.

Whoops, spoilers.

[ringworm]

Banning SUVs would be silly. Requiring automakers to build better engines that don't waste so much fuel would be the way to go. Although it's more American to just ban it if you don't like it.

i like this guy

and Ron, i didnt mean it so literally and directive, just an example of the hypocrisy, but we've been through this before in another thread :)

when the small cars that dominate the hwys only get 10-25 (on average) mpg more than a mid size SUV, the problem is much bigger than * OMG, look, theres an SUV, lets burn that mutha down *

driving habits probably have more to do with our consumption intake than too many Nissan XTerras

[Volumnius Flush]

I live with in walking distance of a quick-e-mart :/

You go there to get a quickie?

[Mr. Ron]

You go there to get a quickie?

haha yeah man I go there to get a quickie, because you know, quickie is another word for a sexual encounter LOL


And what happened after Darth Vader said that? Han Solo came blazing out of the sky in the Millennium Falcon, fastest ship in the galaxy, and sent Vader spinning into the infinite void.

Whoops, spoilers.

This is why I love you Alex.


This is why.

[Detective Dan]

i don't mind SUV's

i only mind pick-up trucks larger than an F150 in a non-rural environment

[ringworm]

Plus even if I did that, my car gets close to 35MPG, so it wouldn't be the same as getting into an SUV that gets like, 18 miles to the gallon.
but see, that shouldnt make it ok for you to drive wastefully?



on another note, i would like to add that my wife had a '91 Escort that got better gas mileage than many cars do today, which is kinda my point, by only addressing SUV's, you're letting every other vehicle get off the hook

the mpg of SUV's isnt any more deplorable than every other vehicle we are offered when you take an intelligent approach. Heck, imo, hybrids should be getting way more mpg than they do

and dont forget other items like tires, fenders, bumpers and almost every other piece of material on vehicles that consist of oil derivatives

[Mister_Che]

i don't mind SUV's

i only mind pick-up trucks larger than an F150 in a non-rural environment

This is how I feel. I know people just love the look of trucks and all, and want them even if they get limited use, but anything larger than a 150 that isn't hauling or carrying something really bugs me.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Physicist Fredrik Robelius. Here you can read the whole thing here

http://publications.uu.se/abstract.xsql?dbid=7625

Interesting.

They're usually full of **** about almost everything. Just giving you a heads-up.

Ok...

Even then, most of the population is in an urban area. And the fact that the population is spread out doesn't suddenly make automobile-centric transportation any less of an engineering disaster. I mentioned Atlanta as a particularly bad example of transportation infrastructure earlier. Precisely



(source: http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2001/2001-01-31-atlanta-pollution.htm)

Three million people and 115.6 million miles a day. If the road system of the Atlanta metro area were a computer algorithm, it would have a complexity worse than O(n^4) ... which in plain terms is called "****ing unacceptable".

Doesn't matter, you could have a whole bunch more buses running; a lot of people want the comfort and easy access to their own car. + The issue of time would come into play.



If by 'talk' you mean 'conspire', then yes.

Sigh.

Also to add to this whole "omg suvs get 4 mpg while my Honda can drive to the sun and back on a gallon of gas" you also have to consider how effectively the vehicle is using the gas. I know that my 2001 mini gets better gas mileage than my neighbors 2003 SUV, but it has a lower lb of carbon/gallon of gas than my Mini Van.

[Aaron]

Suv's arent just going to die; the current trend of hybridization will see them slimmed down and streamlined into suv/car/van crossovers like they are making now.

I currently drive a 4 runner 94, and though it only gets about 17 mpg, I need the extra space for carrying my drums and other cargo.

my SUV is actually pretty ****ing sweet. And yeah i also need it for my drumset so mind your own business.
I fit a 6-piece drumset in a Toyota Yaris fine, you suck at transport.
Yaris = 6.5L to 100km.

[Sunshine]

I fit a 6-piece drumset in a Toyota Yaris fine, you suck at transport.
Yaris = 6.5L to 100km.

Exactly.
Like I said earlier, I fit mine [5 piece] into my Civic just fine, with space for one more person and extra equipment.
And that's when I'm not really bothering to pack it all in very well.


ALSO.
I retract my statement about people with big families having an excuse to have an SUV.
Unless they're going to take their big family offroading all the time, they can just buy a freakin' minivan. It's why they were invented, afterall.

[stevensonmat2]

Well, some people (like me) can't afford a new yaris, and my 94 4-runner was only 5k american, and isn't nearly as dorky as a yaris.

[Aaron]

1) Buy something second hand that isn't crap at fuel efficiency.
2) Realise that SUVs are now the "dorky" vehicle of today.
3) The money you save on fuel will pay for a new car.

[stevensonmat2]

Well actually my suv isn't that bad on gas, it looks cool as hell, I DO go off-roading, and despite what you say I can pretty much guarantee that the general opinion is the yaris is a dorky little mouse-mobile. The fit as well.

Sure, I would save money on gas, but I couldn't really save money on gas for a new car when I didn't have a car to put gas in. I needed a car and I found a good deal. Lots of room (I usually carry a lot of folks around) and plenty of cargo room. I've also been able to stuff my suv full of things when I was moving or delivering phone books (when I was doing that).

Obviously suvs are on the way out, but bashing them now is kind of dumb because for a lot of people they make sense.

[Detective Dan]

it looks cool as hell

this is the problem


nobody thinks you look cool

[stevensonmat2]

Ok Ok, don't take me quite so seriously. I don't think it makes ME look cool, I think the car looks cool. And when buying a vehicle that is important. Not the most important thing, but it does count.

Also, I know a great many people who think the 94 4-runner is a fine looking automobile. It's really the classic year of the 4 runner.

[Volumnius Flush]

My Malibu was getting less than 17 mpg. This new revelation will make me the outcast of the energy-conscious forum.

[1338 h4x0r]

Interesting.

"Thank you for leading me out of my ignorance, 1338 h4x0r."


Ok...


"Thank you for leading me out of my ignorance, 1338 h4x0r."


Doesn't matter, you could have a whole bunch more buses running; a lot of people want the comfort and easy access to their own car. + The issue of time would come into play.


What do you mean "it doesn't matter"? Wasteful civilizations either collapse or suffer from their excesses. Amurr'ka is not the magical exception, and 'comfort' has nothing to do with it. On top of that, you see very busy societies like Japan where there's a lot of mass transit, so even utility doesn't play much of a role either.


Also to add to this whole "omg suvs get 4 mpg while my Honda can drive to the sun and back on a gallon of gas" you also have to consider how effectively the vehicle is using the gas. I know that my 2001 mini gets better gas mileage than my neighbors 2003 SUV, but it has a lower lb of carbon/gallon of gas than my Mini Van.

Then it's not about global warming, but just wasting oil, period. Oil that's also needed to make all kinds of other things as well

[Dethklok1]

some SUVS are cool

i got a 2 door one it rules

[WhoDidTheElf]

"Thank you for leading me out of my ignorance, 1338 h4x0r."

"Thank you for leading me out of my ignorance, 1338 h4x0r."

More like I don't feel like going in some rhetorical circle any more.

What do you mean "it doesn't matter"? Wasteful civilizations either collapse or suffer from their excesses. Amurr'ka is not the magical exception, and 'comfort' has nothing to do with it. On top of that, you see very busy societies like Japan where there's a lot of mass transit, so even utility doesn't play much of a role either.

Japan is also half the size of CA. Besides comparing Japan's life style to America's is like apples to oranges.

What I meant by "doesn't matter" is the statistics on how far people drive. What works in Atlanta will not work else were. For me, to take the bus to the mall takes over an hour. I can get there, in my car, in under 10.


Then it's not about global warming, but just wasting oil, period. Oil that's also needed to make all kinds of other things as well

That wasn't directed at you, but it's the main reason people are like omgz suv = bad. And oil only on a mass scale may run out. It will never be gone for ever.

[1338 h4x0r]

More like I don't feel like going in some rhetorical circle any more.

If giving you unbiased physical data is going around in a rhetorical circle, fair enough.


Japan is also half the size of CA. Besides comparing Japan's life style to America's is like apples to oranges.

Most people don't commute to Nebraska.


What I meant by "doesn't matter" is the statistics on how far people drive. What works in Atlanta will not work else were. For me, to take the bus to the mall takes over an hour. I can get there, in my car, in under 10.


So how long are we going to prop up this wasteful and, in many cases, crumbling infrastructure?


That wasn't directed at you, but it's the main reason people are like omgz suv = bad. And oil only on a mass scale may run out. It will never be gone for ever.

Alright but that's quibbling

[Aaron]

What I meant by "doesn't matter" is the statistics on how far people drive. What works in Atlanta will not work else were. For me, to take the bus to the mall takes over an hour. I can get there, in my car, in under 10.
Herein lies your problem; America isn't serious about being environmentally friendly as it isn't investing in public transport. Here in Australia, you can get most places fairly easily by public transport. I go 85km to work each day and it only takes me an hour and a half. It doesn't take trillions to build decent essential rail infrastructure on a state-based level.

[Apollyon]

1) Buy something second hand that isn't crap at fuel efficiency.
2) Realise that SUVs are now the "dorky" vehicle of today.
3) The money you save on fuel will pay for a new car.

um no maybe if you're an eco-fag but honestly only women and men with no taste in vehicles drive a yaris

[1338 h4x0r]

Herein lies your problem; America isn't serious about being environmentally friendly as it isn't investing in public transport. Here in Australia, you can get most places fairly easily by public transport. I go 85km to work each day and it only takes me an hour and a half. It doesn't take trillions to build decent essential rail infrastructure on a state-based level.

But Australia is a small country.

So you can't compare the two.

[Aaron]

Australia isn't small, but it is different as 90% of our population is coastal.

[Apollyon]

australia is incredibly small compared to the united states

[Charlie Daniels]

australia is incredibly small compared to the united states

9,629,091sqkm against 7,692,024sqkms... hardly incredibly small.

But the size of a country is irrelevent, as very few people drive from one side to the other on a daily basis. Surely the debate at hand applies to travelling within metropolitan areas? In which case, you can certainly compare the two.

I have little experience with the sydney public transport, but I have nothing but praise for Melbourne's train. When in Melbourne, and wishing to travel to any of the major suburbs, I tend to drive to the train station nearest to where I am staying and use it. It would be hard to use public transport exclusively if living in the suburbs, as rail stations aren't exactly on the corner of every street. Likewise, the tram system is also very handy.

[Volumnius Flush]

9,629,091sqkm against 7,692,024sqkms... hardly incredibly small.

But the size of a country is irrelevent, as very few people drive from one side to the other on a daily basis. Surely the debate at hand applies to travelling within metropolitan areas? In which case, you can certainly compare the two.

I have little experience with the sydney public transport, but I have nothing but praise for Melbourne's train. When in Melbourne, and wishing to travel to any of the major suburbs, I tend to drive to the train station nearest to where I am staying and use it. It would be hard to use public transport exclusively if living in the suburbs, as rail stations aren't exactly on the corner of every street. Likewise, the tram system is also very handy.

Did you have accounts prior to Charlie Daniels? If so what were they? I have a sneaking suspicion about you...

[Charlie Daniels]

I had a couple, I'm user most commonly reffered to as "plexi."

Does this confirm or deny your suspicions?

[Volumnius Flush]

I had a couple, I'm user most commonly reffered to as "plexi."

Does this confirm or deny your suspicions?

Oh!!!!!!! That's who I thought you were! I remembered this account from like over a year ago when you first created it. I have always loved your work Mr. Plex and I am a great admirer of your work, and I just can't tell you how glad I am to finally get to talk with you!

[Charlie Daniels]

Oh Hi!

What parts of my work? :-/ The silly youtube vids? :-D

[ringworm]

3) The money you save on fuel will pay for a new car.

i have to disagree here

i love to hear someone just trade in a vehicle thats paid for, or close to being paid off and somehow balance that the new huge monthly payment is voided out be the 15-30 dollars a week a new car with marginally better mpg will save them.

at least here in the states, the difference between most gas hogs mpg isnt really that wide compared to cars with high mpg. seriously, the prius only gets 40's-50's, right? then the next batch of vehicvles gets anywhere from 20-38, hell, my fullsize pickup with a V8 gets 22

i thought the point was for clean emmisions, not to be able to use the same amount of gas for less, or feel your trip to the mall wasnt as bad as mine because of mpg



i would rather change my driving habits to save and help rather than go in debt with a new car that will only make it easier for me to excuse driving more

[Charlie Daniels]

I agree.

It depends, on what you're shopping for. If you are tossing up between a $35,000 V6 or V8 then you might save money ultimately if you buy a $50,000 hybrid.

But...

If you're tossing up between buying a second hand (or your current vehicle) worth about $5000 it's going to take a LONG time to start making a saving.

[ringworm]

here's a good example

the #1 selling car
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
only averages 19-31 mpg, so when you see an Accord driving through a city, it is getting the same mpg as my truck, only its motor is around 3 litres smaller and weighs significantly less