U.S. Institutes Draft

[Against Miik!]

What are you going to do?



So, we really aren't, and probably won't in the foreseeable future. But if we did, being completely honest with yourself, what would you do? I know a lot of you think you would move to Canada or whatever, but during the last draft, a majority did not. So again, being COMPLETELY HONEST, what is your course of action.

[Volumnius Flush]

What are you going to do?



So, we really aren't, and probably won't in the foreseeable future. But if we did, being completely honest with yourself, what would you do? I know a lot of you think you would move to Canada or whatever, but during the last draft, a majority did not. So again, being COMPLETELY HONEST, what is your course of action.

I for one am leaving off to Canada. But since I am going to seminary, I will probably get a deferrment. :p

[siva_chair]

Man up and do my service.

[UmphreysHead]

Join so I can go to another country and be like "prepare to get ****ed by the long dick of america".

[Against Miik!]

And remember guys, if you leave, there is no coming back.

[Volumnius Flush]

And remember guys, if you leave, there is no coming back.

Can I live a life in Canada freely and not have to worry about the Feds coming after me?

[Against Miik!]

I'm no expert, but I imagine so.

Even if they could come after you, I don't think they would waste their time going after the relative handul of individuals that ditched.

[1338 h4x0r]

That would be some major homofaggotry

Fortunately I'm ineligible for the draft

[Volumnius Flush]

I'm no expert, but I imagine so.

Even if they could come after you, I don't think they would waste their time going after the relative handul of individuals that ditched.

Sounds like a plan. Yeah, if they don't come after me, I would go to Canada although like I said, I'm going to seminary so I'd probably get a deferment.

[Against Miik!]

That would be some major homolarge bundle of sticksry

Fortunately I'm ineligible for the draft

Are you diabetic or something?

[Volumnius Flush]

That would be some major homofaggotry

Fortunately I'm ineligible for the draft

How are you ineligible?

[1338 h4x0r]

Are you diabetic or something?

No. I'm fit as a fiddle. However I have a formal diagnosis with a developmental disorder. Which means that as far as the draft is concerned: nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, hah hah hah hah hah.

[Against Miik!]

Did you know that current 20% of the military in the middle east is taking Prozac?

[1338 h4x0r]

No I did not.

[Seafroggys]

I'm a Pacifist.

I would run.

There is no shame involved for me.

[Against Miik!]

Well, to be more specific, its just in Afghanistan. Read here if you really care.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1811858,00.html

And there is nothing to be ashamed of if you do decide to leave. You didn't choose to live here, and to be honest, even though you should consider yourself lucky to live in the US, you do not owe your allegiance to them.

Freedom should not be a privilege

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm a Pacifist.

I would run.

There is no shame involved for me.

I'm cynical, bitter and self-serving.

I would run.

There is no shame involved for me, either.

Well, to be more specific, its just in Afghanistan. Read here if you really care.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1811858,00.html

And there is nothing to be ashamed of if you do decide to leave. You didn't choose to live here, and to be honest, even though you should consider yourself lucky to live in the US, you do not owe your allegiance to them.

Freedom should not be a privilege

Even that is besides the point. Rights are a fictional abstraction. One has opportunities. He either uses them or does not.

[Volumnius Flush]

No. I'm fit as a fiddle. However I have a formal diagnosis with a developmental disorder. Which means that as far as the draft is concerned: nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, hah hah hah hah hah.

What all diagnoses do you have? If you don't mind sharing... AS and...

[1338 h4x0r]

As far as formal diagnosis goes, that's it. A psychiatrist suggested schizoid personality but I call that 'realism'.

[Against Miik!]

Even that is besides the point. Rights are a fictional abstraction. One has opportunities. He either uses them or does not.

Of course, but my point that we should not feel some sort of allegiance to the US because we are relatively free is a bunch of bull. Freedom is granted to us by God. We should be not indebted to this country because they do not restrict our rights.

Our military is great because it is volunteer only. I'll take quality over quantity. I think I could be a soldier, but I know a lot of people who would just be bodies, serving no actual purpose.

[1338 h4x0r]

Of course, but my point that we should not feel some sort of allegiance to the US because we are relatively free is a bunch of bull. Freedom is granted to us by God. We should be not indebted to this country because they do not restrict our rights.

Err...God?

Our military is great because it is volunteer only. I'll take quality over quantity. I think I could be a soldier, but I know a lot of people who would just be bodies, serving no actual purpose.

I'd be a hell of a REMF (Rear Echelon Mother****er)

[Volumnius Flush]

As far as formal diagnosis goes, that's it. A psychiatrist suggested schizoid personality but I call that 'realism'.

I have like 6 or 7 disorders.

[Iscariot]

i like to think i would leave the country, but realistically i would probably just do my time

i've been in the military and i know what to expect

i know the physical standards and i know what i'd have to do to be successful so i know i could hack it if i had to

i would just prefer to not ever have to enlist again so maybe i'd be crazy enough to run for it

[Against Miik!]

Well, by God I simply mean natural rights. Putting God in there is just the easiest way of saying it.

Assuming all men are created equal, there is no one person (or group), who should be able to force another into doing something they do not want to do.

Jared I did not know until today that you were in the military. Where were you stationed, if you care to say?

[Volumnius Flush]

i like to think i would leave the country, but realistically i would probably just do my time

i've been in the military and i know what to expect

i know the physical standards and i know what i'd have to do to be successful so i know i could hack it if i had to

i would just prefer to not ever have to enlist again so maybe i'd be crazy enough to run for it

We'll run together Iscariot!

[1338 h4x0r]

Assuming all men are created equal, there is no one person (or group), who should be able to force another into doing something they do not want to do.

Coercion is a part of society

[Against Miik!]

Coercion is a part of society

In the realistic sense, yes. As far as what is actually right? I believe not.

And this only applies to those who allow themselves to be coerced. If you open yourself up for coercion, then I think you deserve what you have comin to ya.

[Iscariot]

those with power coerce those without it

it isn't a matter of willpower it's a matter of necessity

if the government says, "go fight or be a criminal for the rest of your natural life" you tend to go fight

[Against Miik!]

Well yeah but then we get into the whole scenario of legitimate power. Should an individual, technically no better than yourself, be able to force you to sacrifice your life for their cause?

I say no, but I don't want to get into that convo.

[Iscariot]

we pay them to make those decisions so yeah it's an unfortunate side effect of electing those individuals into that level of power

[siva_chair]

We'll run together Iscariot!

Aww that sounds so romantic.

[Against Miik!]

I suppose, but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from a little bit.

I understand that philosophy really plays no part in real life, but just in a hypothetical sense, we can pretend it does.

[1338 h4x0r]

And this only applies to those who allow themselves to be coerced. If you open yourself up for coercion, then I think you deserve what you have comin to ya.

I take it you haven't resisted societal coercion recently. I've done it my whole life and it's not fun.

[Volumnius Flush]

Aww that sounds so romantic.

Eww gross... I would rep you for that, but I've given too much.. last 24 hours...

[Iscariot]

We'll run together Iscariot!

you would mysteriously disappear somewhere along the way though :o

[siva_chair]

Eww gross... I would rep you for that, but I've given too much.. last 24 hours...

Dude I don't want your manjam or rep or whatever you kids call it these days.

[Against Miik!]

I take it you haven't resisted societal coercion recently. I've done it my whole life and it's not fun.

Elaborate and will respond.

I say things hypothetically a lot

[1338 h4x0r]

Resisting norms and doing your own thing is a great way to invite ridicule, scorn and exclusion.

On the other hand, it has a lot of advantages. The group of people I care about is quite small, so I don't buy into that "your country needs you" kind of bunk. I couldn't care less about the better part of the people here, or in any other country for that matter.

[Volumnius Flush]

you would mysteriously disappear somewhere along the way though :o

Highly unlikely, sorry to disappoint.

Dude I don't want your manjam or rep or whatever you kids call it these days.

Well you're getting some of my manjam tomorrow... Haha!

[Against Miik!]

Resisting norms and doing your own thing is a great way to invite ridicule, scorn and exclusion.

Ok. Well I definitely understand that. But in day to day life, I don't really have to many situations where that comes into play.

I could do a lot of things that wouldn't be accepting, if I truly did do what I want to do, but I choose complacency I suppose.

If the situation threatened my life though, things might be a little different. I can't say for sure though.

[siva_chair]

Well you're getting some of my manjam tomorrow... Haha!

Well then I am sorry to inform you that you will be getting a high powered rifle round through your peen before your package can be delievered from an undisclosed location and distance.

FYI it will probably be a .308 round from a Savage rifle with a 4-12X Leupold scope. Just a heads up.

[1338 h4x0r]

Ok. Well I definitely understand that. But in day to day life, I don't really have to many situations where that comes into play.

I could do a lot of things that wouldn't be accepting, if I truly did do what I want to do, but I choose complacency I suppose.

I s'pose I could do that. However, I'm really bad at pretending to like things that I don't like, which is apparently a vital skill.

[Against Miik!]

Its the most vital of all. Life will go on as it does, whether you like it or not. You can resist and be miserable, or go with the flow and be happy with the one chance at it you get.

Man I should start taking my own advice.

[Volumnius Flush]

Well then I am sorry to inform you that you will be getting a high powered rifle round through your peen before your package can be delievered from an undisclosed location and distance.


Misplaced modifier ITT.

[siva_chair]

Misplaced modifier ITT.

Not as misplaced as your modified reproductive organs would be if you were to follow through with your threat of using biological weapons. :thumb:

[1338 h4x0r]

Its the most vital of all. Life will go on as it does, whether you like it or not. You can resist and be miserable, or go with the flow and be happy with the one chance at it you get.

Man I should start taking my own advice.

Well, if I went with the flow, I'd be saddled with debt and in a really shitty job right now, which is what happens to most of my bovine peers. Instead, I embraced my will to power and it seems to be paying off ... slowly.

[Against Miik!]

Well, if I went with the flow, I'd be saddled with debt and in a really poopty job right now, which is what happens to most of my bovine peers. Instead, I embraced my will to power and it seems to be paying off ... slowly.

Well hey, whatever works.

I'm just saying, there is no point in being a cynic.

[1338 h4x0r]

Well hey, whatever works.

I'm just saying, there is no point in being a cynic.

There is a point in being a cynic. I like to perceive the world as it is ... not as I want it to be. If that causes me pain, it's a small price to pay for not being deluded.

[Against Miik!]

I'm a cynic too, to be honest. Well, actually, I call it being a realist. But still, its sucks, and I'm miserable. I wish I knew how to channel it into something good.

[1338 h4x0r]

It's possible to channel it into something positive: namely, improving your own lot.

I'm on the Dean's List again because I am hell-bent on having a career where I am rewarded and not punished for making logical decisions.

[siva_chair]

There is a point in being a cynic. I like to perceive the world as it is ... not as I want it to be. If that causes me pain, it's a small price to pay for not being deluded.

That is assuming the world actually is as a cynic perceives it....

[1338 h4x0r]

That is assuming the world actually is as a cynic perceives it....

Let me check.

/leaves room

/returns

Ok, reality television is still popular. The world is actually as a cynic perceives it.

[siva_chair]

Let me check.

/leaves room

/returns

Ok, reality television is still popular. The world is actually as a cynic perceives it.

Well you see now that is just the cynic in you telling you it is that way.

[1338 h4x0r]

Well you see now that is just the cynic in you telling you it is that way.

Or it could be the bovine behavior of people around me

Occam's razor recommends that.

[siva_chair]

Or it could be the bovine behavior of people around me

Occam's razor recommends that.

Mad Cow disease ftw.

[1338 h4x0r]

I remember watching a video of James Randi using a radio scanner at a faith healer meeting and it turned out the pastor's wife was feeding him information about his flock to give the impression that he was miraculous.

Fortunately for me, no razor blades were available at the time

[beso negro]

i would love to do service.

i thought about joining navy fresh out of high school but the recruiter didn't show up for our scheduled meeting.

[Ghoul Hustler]

I'd get the hell out. I'd die for my family but never for a collective country unless the war was one I felt strong enough about to support.

[siva_chair]

i would love to do service.

i thought about joining navy fresh out of high school but the recruiter didn't show up for our scheduled meeting.

I've also thought about joining the Navy, actually.

[JohnXDoe]

i'm too old for it. but depending on the war i would go fight. such a hard hypothetical here

a war like Iraq? sure, i'd go. it needs working out. if we're in it, well...thats reality. its just up to me to decide if its worth fighting for whatever reason, until it gets worked out. i would say the moment we set foot in country there was no turning back for the soldier, who fights and dies so i don't have to. and that to me makes it worth fighting. among a few other reasons

so yeah, i would fight so other Americans might be spared, sure. among a few reasons of my own. if i were called on

[DBoons Ghost]

I'm too old but if they'd take me I'd go.

It doesn't matter if I agree with the circumstances or not.

That's like saying if we ever got invaded you draft dodging pussies would surrender like wimps or stay in your house and beg for it to be over. Those of you who would do that do not deserve the liberty our founding fathers fought for. I blame your parents for being wimpy pricks.

Anyway, there will never be another draft again and if there is I am sure the circumstances would dictate otherwise. Meaning if you ran to Canada assuming Canada is still our ally you might not find the asylum you seek.

[Jude]

Burn my draft card and piss on a recruiting station

If that didn't work then go to Canada

If that didn't work then go to some tiny country somewhere halfway across the world and live it up until the president got impeached then come back

[Ghoul Hustler]

If we got invaded i'd take my friends and family and get out asap

[JohnXDoe]

^ yeah and you and your family could crash on the road or your plane could fall from the sky as you're getting out or you might die in a storm or somethin' when you get to where you are going.

all the while you might have lived a long and fruitful life had you just stayed put.

"getting out" promises no guarantees

for you either, Jude

[Jude]

^ yeah and you and your family could crash on the road or your plane could fall from the sky as you're getting out or you might die in a storm or somethin' when you get to where you are going.

all the while you might have lived a long and fruitful life had you just stayed put.

"getting out" promises no guarantees

for you either, Jude

wtf

But I could be on my way to report to my draft board and get run over by a truck

[Ghoul Hustler]

wtf

But I could be on my way to report to my draft board and get run over by a truck

exactly. That logic is just awkward. I don't want to fight anyone for my life when there's a very clear safe path out.

[DBoons Ghost]

You know I do understand you guys wanting to run away. I simply cannot respect it.

It doesn't make anyone any better or worse then the other.

I think depending on the circumstances some of you who say you'd run might not be so quick to run if you had more to lose then you do now.

[Hababi]

Burn my draft card and piss on a recruiting station

If that didn't work then go to Canada

If that didn't work then go to some tiny country somewhere halfway across the world and live it up until the president got impeached then come back

Wait I thought you lived in Canada and went to some third rate Canadian college.

So you actually go to America and go to some third rate American college.

You should really leave.

[Danish]

Mohammed Ali was right when he refused to go to Vietnam, even under threat of prison.

[DBoons Ghost]

Mohammed Ali was right when he refused to go to Vietnam, even under threat of prison.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

[beso negro]

Burn my draft card and piss on a recruiting station

If that didn't work then go to Canada

If that didn't work then go to some tiny country somewhere halfway across the world and live it up until the president got impeached then come back

lame

even i disagree with the US foreign policy but i would still do service no questions asked if I had to.

[Hababi]

Jude would only serve if the US fought Israel

[guitrguy]

Well I would gtfo once I get out of College.

[DBoons Ghost]

Jude would only serve if the US fought Israel


You know, just making sure you understand, but there are times when you're friends with the bully, and you still want to see him get his butt kicked for being a bully. Sometimes you're friends with him out of fear and sometimes out of pity. Especially if you really know the guy and he's just a selfish attention whore. Dig?

Just sayin. That same logic in individual thinking should be respected and understood.

[Danish]

But I don't condemn those that come to Canada to avoid war. There are American soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada right now, and I support them 100%.

[Hababi]

But I don't condemn those that come to Canada to avoid war. There are American soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada right now, and I support them 100%.

...They signed up to serve, you do realize this, right? They signed up, and now they're running away from what they volunteered for. Cowards. Take the benefits without being willing to do their duty.

How about during WW2?

[JohnXDoe]

Mohammed Ali was right when he refused to go to Vietnam, even under threat of prison.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

i agree also but ain't none of these useless mofo's Mohammed Ali

change you name to Ali Baba and go study the Karon and maybe we can talk

[dei]

Man up and do my service.

Running away is for women and homosexuals, amirite!

The only time I'd report for duty is if the United States were invaded.

[Danish]

...They signed up to serve, you do realize this, right? They signed up, and now they're running away from what they volunteered for. Cowards. Take the benefits without being willing to do their duty.

How about during WW2?

Are you questioning their masculinity? I think that has absolutely nothing to do with this.

The War in Iraq is an illegal war in which countless crimes against humanity, the vast majority of which we'll never hear about, are being committed. If you look at the history of international law (ie. Nuremberg), you would know that even regular soldiers "just following orders" can be convicted and executed for war crimes. That notwithstanding, committing atrocities is simply wrong, I'm sure you'll agree. These soldiers didn't sign up with the intentions of breaking international law, which they are being forced to do.

Usually, when you sign a contract to do something illegal, that contract becomes non-binding anyway. So whether we're talking about the real issue -- the horrors of war -- or we're talking about contract, you're argument doesn't meet the test.

As for World War II, I would argue the same thing.

[Hababi]

Are you questioning their masculinity? I think that has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Cowardice has nothing to do with lack of masculinity--plenty of women have served quite admirably.



The War in Iraq is an illegal war

It's not.


in which countless crimes against humanity,

Yeah, being committed by the terrorists and insurgents.


the vast majority of which we'll never hear about,

That's a way to make any reckless claim you want.


These soldiers didn't sign up with the intentions of breaking international law, which they are being forced to do.

They're not breaking international law. There was a coalition of roughly 50 nations intervening when we went in.

And these cowards aren't doing it for any abstract interpretation of international law. They're doing it because they're afraid to do their duty. When you sign up, you don't sign up to only serve in missions you agree with. You sign up to do what you're told. And if you don't like that, you should've never been in to begin with. They deserve arrested, tried, and jailed for desertion.

Usually, when you sign a contract to do something illegal,

Once again, it wasn't illegal. They sign on to uphold American law, not an arbitrary definition imposed on them by cowardly French fools (read up on how the French helped the Rwandan genocide happen).




As for World War II, I would argue the same thing.

That we shouldn't have fought? So then you think the Holocaust should've been left to happen?

[dei]

Ah, let's bash the frogs.

[dub sean]

I am getting out. America's not MY country.

[mph4ever]

That we shouldn't have fought? So then you think the Holocaust should've been left to happen?


are you suggesting that american involvement in wwii was because of the holocaust?

[Danish]

Cowardice has nothing to do with lack of masculinity--plenty of women have served quite admirably.




It's not.



Yeah, being committed by the terrorists and insurgents.



That's a way to make any reckless claim you want.



They're not breaking international law. There was a coalition of roughly 50 nations intervening when we went in.

And these cowards aren't doing it for any abstract interpretation of international law. They're doing it because they're afraid to do their duty. When you sign up, you don't sign up to only serve in missions you agree with. You sign up to do what you're told. And if you don't like that, you should've never been in to begin with. They deserve arrested, tried, and jailed for desertion.


Once again, it wasn't illegal. They sign on to uphold American law, not an arbitrary definition imposed on them by cowardly French fools (read up on how the French helped the Rwandan genocide happen).





That we shouldn't have fought? So then you think the Holocaust should've been left to happen?

Clearly, this debate isn't going anywhere. "Preemptive war" clearly violates the international covenants and treaties to which the US is a signatory, including the Geneva Conventions.

It doesn't matter what I say or how well I argue my point, you're not going to listen to me. You'd rather throw mud at war resisters for being "cowards". You can't prove that they are cowards any more than I can demonstrate that they aren't. That's the beauty of ad hominem arguments -- they're indefensible.

Your deep-seeded American nationalism is very evident. And don't respond that I hate the US or something, because I don't. I'm opposed to all forms of nationalism and I'm more than willing to critique any gov't, especially my own, for the bad things that they do.

[Hababi]

are you suggesting that american involvement in wwii was because of the holocaust?

If America hadn't intervened, the Holocaust would've continued. And apparently Danish would've preferred that. So I'm just wondering why.

[dei]

Please, Steve, just stop.

[Danish]

are you suggesting that american involvement in wwii was because of the holocaust?

He is, an it's a totally ridiculous assertion.

[Hababi]

You can't prove that they are cowards any more than I can demonstrate that they aren't.

When you sign up for the army, you don't sign something saying "only for battles I agree with", or "only wars which France will approve of." You sign to go where you're sent.

And I'll remind you again that the US had a broad coalition. Only a few cowardly Euro countries refused to participate.


Your deep-seeded American nationalism is very evident. And don't respond that I hate the US or something, because I don't. I'm opposed to all forms of nationalism and I'm more than willing to critique any gov't, especially my own, for the bad things that they do.

I don't consider myself a nationalist, particularly.

[Hababi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

[Danish]

If America hadn't intervened, the Holocaust would've continued. And apparently Danish would've preferred that. So I'm just wondering why.

That's ridiculous mud slinging. The US didn't care about the oppression of Jews in Germany leading up to the war. Likewise, the view of the US as the saviour is flawed; what about Stalinist Russia's role in ending the Holocaust? Not a legitimate argument because of the atrocities committed by Stalin? Very well, but the US has a long history of genocide too.

Let's at least be consistent here.

[Hababi]

That's ridiculous mud slinging. The US didn't care about the oppression of Jews in Germany leading up to the war.

That's not the point I'm making.


Likewise, the view of the US as the saviour is flawed; what about Stalinist Russia's role in ending the Holocaust? Not a legitimate argument because of the atrocities committed by Stalin? Very well, but the US has a long history of genocide too.


Part of the reason the SU was able to advance on the Eastern front, and liberate Auschwitz and other camps, is that the western front required attention, thanks to the US principally. The US liberated many camps, too.

So if you want to argue that both the US and the SU were necessary components to stopping the genocide, I won't disagree.

[mph4ever]

If America hadn't intervened, the Holocaust would've continued. And apparently Danish would've preferred that. So I'm just wondering why.

intervened? what do you mean intervened?

[Danish]

When you sign up for the army, you don't sign something saying "only for battles I agree with", or "only wars which France will approve of." You sign to go where you're sent.

And I'll remind you again that the US had a broad coalition. Only a few cowardly Euro countries refused to participate.

Again, the decision made at Nuremberg -- that even soldiers under orders can be hanged for war crimes -- means that indeed soldiers have the right to refuse orders that violate international law, particularly the Geneva Conventions.

No matter how many times you simply assert cowardice, it doesn't make the argument legitimate. Ad hominem all the way. The majority of the population in so-called "cowardly" countries were opposed participating in the war. I suppose following the democratic will of the people is a bad thing? Cowardly?

I actually think it took a lot of bravery and guts for countries like Germany, France, and Canada to refuse to take part.

I don't consider myself a nationalist, particularly.

You don't have to consider yourself one to be one.

[Danish]

That's not the point I'm making.

Part of the reason the SU was able to advance on the Eastern front, and liberate Auschwitz and other camps, is that the western front required attention, thanks to the US principally. The US liberated many camps, too.

So if you want to argue that both the US and the SU were necessary components to stopping the genocide, I won't disagree.

WWII had nothing to do with the Holocaust or the oppression of peoples in Germany.

[Reaganista]

i wouldnt get drafted
If America hadn't intervened, the Holocaust would've continued. And apparently Danish would've preferred that. So I'm just wondering why.
zero do you understand how time works

[dei]

Do you have flat feet?

[Reaganista]

im a gaysexual cant you read locations

[Hababi]

Again, the decision made at Nuremberg -- that even soldiers under orders can be hanged for war crimes -- means that indeed soldiers have the right to refuse orders that violate international law, particularly the Geneva Conventions.

1) It doesn't violate international law. I'll again point you to the multitude of countries that participated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

And, once again, they didn't do it out of some abstract concern for so called international law. They did it because they didn't want to fight. But you don't have that option when you volunteer to serve. You either go or you go to jail. They should be on trial.

No matter how many times you simply assert cowardice, it doesn't make the argument legitimate. Ad hominem all the way. The majority of the population in so-called "cowardly" countries were opposed participating in the war. I suppose following the democratic will of the people is a bad thing? Cowardly?


The majority of people probably would've opposed intervening to stop the Rwandan genocide. You don't always follow mob rule.


I actually think it took a lot of bravery and guts for countries like Germany, France, and Canada to refuse to take part.

:lol:


WWII had nothing to do with the Holocaust or the oppression of peoples in Germany.

You're dodging my point. If the US had stayed out of WW2, as you advocate, the Holocaust would've continued. Germany would've been able to concentrate on the Eastern front, and would've sealed it off from Soviet incursion.

[guitrguy]

You're dodging my point. If the US had stayed out of WW2, as you advocate, the Holocaust would've continued. Germany would've been able to concentrate on the Eastern front, and would've sealed it off from Soviet incursion.

You don't know that. You assume the US entering the war was the only possible end.

[Hababi]

You don't know that. You assume the US entering the war was the only possible end.

Oh no the other possible end was the US not entering the war and Hitler completing the Holocaust

[mph4ever]

You're dodging my point. If the US had stayed out of WW2,

the Holocaust would've continued.


surely that was a consequence, not a driver

[mph4ever]

Ah, let's bash the frogs.

i nearly missed this, no lets not bash the frogs, go bash someone else for a change

[guitrguy]

Oh no the other possible end was the US not entering the war and Hitler completing the Holocaust

And you complain about having not having an intellectually honest arguments. The irony is lulzy

[Danish]

1) It doesn't violate international law. I'll again point you to the multitude of countries that participated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

Just because a bunch of countries joined the so-called "Coalition of the Willing" doesn't make the war legal.

And, once again, they didn't do it out of some abstract concern for so called international law. They did it because they didn't want to fight. But you don't have that option when you volunteer to serve. You either go or you go to jail. They should be on trial.

I don't believe that, and it's impossible for you to prove.

The majority of people probably would've opposed intervening to stop the Rwandan genocide. You don't always follow mob rule.

I disagree with the premise that the majority of people in any one country that would have been capable of helping stop the Rwandan genocide would have been opposed, but it doesn't matter. The case of Rwanda and the case of Iraq are totally different.

Perhaps I hold "the mob" in higher regard than you do.

:lol:

My sentiment toward your assertions of cowardice exactly.

You're dodging my point. If the US had stayed out of WW2, as you advocate, the Holocaust would've continued. Germany would've been able to concentrate on the Eastern front, and would've sealed it off from Soviet incursion.

I'm not dodging anything. The US didn't enter the war because of the Holocaust; you're arguing from hindsight. The real strategic reason that the US tried to occupy German as quickly as possible was to counter the USSR.

[Reaganista]

ok we all know the final solution didnt start until after the us entered the war right

you can hardly say that ghettoization alone was justification for war considering we had segregation and then that whole japanese internment thing

[dei]

i nearly missed this, no lets not bash the frogs, go bash someone else for a change

I wasn't being serious.

[stevensonmat2]

I wonder if I could get drafted. My brother was kicked out of boot camp when they found he had ADD (as do I), even though the said he didn't have to report it if he hadn't taken meds for it in 4 years (which he hadn't).

The romantic in me would want to go off to war; I imagine it would be a profound experience. But then my realist side comes out and reminds me that the war is ****ed and I wouldn't be seeing nearly enough profit to be involved.

[mph4ever]

I wasn't being serious.


nor was i :naughty:

[Berner]

I'd only allow myself to be drafted into a military situation if I felt the war was justified. So for something like WWII, yeah I would have fought. Vietnam or Iraq, **** no.

[sLarkin20]

I wouldn't be too excited about it, but I would probably just end up going. I wouldn't go through the hassle of trying to get out of it. There would have to be tons of people trying to get out of it through the moral and physical evaluations and filing appeals and ****, but I bet it wouldn't even matter in the long run.

[132WalrusesInMexico]

O Canada! I stand on guard for thee.

[Berner]

O Canada! I stand on guard for thee.

Only if I agree. Like with this whole Afghanistan **** that we're tangled up in, hell no.

[Danish]

Out of Afghanistan NOW!

[Berner]

Out of Afghanistan NOW!Most of the country seems to be blind to what our army is doing over there. My mom is convinced they are rebuilding.

[Jude]

FYI: Signing up for the army makes you 70% hero and 30% tool

Then once you've been in there a while it's about 5-hero and 95-tool

[Iscariot]

I'm too old but if they'd take me I'd go.

It doesn't matter if I agree with the circumstances or not.

That's like saying if we ever got invaded you draft dodging pussies would surrender like wimps or stay in your house and beg for it to be over. Those of you who would do that do not deserve the liberty our founding fathers fought for. I blame your parents for being wimpy pricks.

Anyway, there will never be another draft again and if there is I am sure the circumstances would dictate otherwise. Meaning if you ran to Canada assuming Canada is still our ally you might not find the asylum you seek.

no it's like saying that our government would be involved in a military conflict with so little support that they had to institute a draft just to get the numbers they need to wage that war and rather than have the liberty our founding fathers fought for be rubbed in the dirt while we're dragged from our homes to go die, we would be looking for a better option

[guitrguy]

I would serve in a draft if we were invaded, however if we were the aggressor nation, and I did not believe in the war, I would skip town in case of a draft.

[stevensonmat2]

Why is everyone talking about skipping town on your own country? Where are the rebellious ones waiting for the justification to take violent actions against your hated government?

I hope we do get a draft; I think it would be the perfect opportunity for all of us malcontents to strike at our corrupted institution.

[Der Übermensch]

I am medically exempted from front-line service due to having extremely flat feet, so I am not especially worried. I have a college degree (well, it will be complete by then I assume), so I could get a commission and be a REMF.


Out of Afghanistan NOW!
At least it made sense to be there originally, and everyone supported us.... Lets work on getting out of Iraq first, that was the royal **** up on all counts.

[guitrguy]

I wonder if waving my peen at traffic would exempt me from service.

[Jude]

Why is everyone talking about skipping town on your own country? Where are the rebellious ones waiting for the justification to take violent actions against your hated government?

I hope we do get a draft; I think it would be the perfect opportunity for all of us malcontents to strike at our corrupted institution.

You'd all get shot almost instantly

[mph4ever]

or sh'it yourselves

[Jude]

Both in either order

[je suis un beau chapeau]

id love to jam a bayonet into some japs chest

[Jude]

I've love to "jam my bayonet" into "some jap's" "chest" if you catch my drift

[stevensonmat2]

You'd all get shot almost instantly

coward

its not like it would be out in the open anyway

[mph4ever]

I've love to "jam my bayonet" into "some jap's" "chest" if you catch my drift


between>into

[Hababi]

Out of Afghanistan NOW!

You really like leaving people to suffer, huh? Incredibly cowardly.

[Danish]

Now I'm a coward! Is that your word-of-the-day or something?

[Iscariot]

You'd all get shot almost instantly

yeah because we'd all form up in a giant rectangular formation and fire in volleys from the front rank to the back allowing each rank time and cover so they could reload their muskets

[Hababi]

Now I'm a coward! Is that your word-of-the-day or something?

Well, you uplift cowards and embrace cowardice. Why do you want to leave Iraq to genocide? Why do you want to subject the Afghan people to the rule of the Taliban? That is downright condemnable. Have you bothered to think about the ramifications of your desires?

[Danish]

You win. I'm a coward. :rolleyes:

[guitrguy]

I love appealing to emotion and calling people a coward when they don't share my opinion.

[Danish]

So does Zero. He's the master!

[Hababi]

I love appealing to emotion and calling people a coward when they don't share my opinion.

I'm appealing to logic. If we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be free to take back control. I want to know why Danish wants this to happen. Iraq will descend into genocide, and the region will be destablizied. I want to know why Danish wants this.

[guitrguy]

I'm appealing to logic. If we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be free to take back control. I want to know why Danish wants this to happen. Iraq will descend into genocide, and the region will be destablizied. I want to know why Danish wants this.

Afghanistan is not even Canada's problem its ours. Iraq should never have happened, and genocide is not a gaurantee.

[Danish]

You'd all get shot almost instantly

Maybe not shot, but charged criminally probably. 14 students at University of Toronto are facing charges including forceable confinement for holding a protest against increased tuition fees.

http://fightfees.ca/

[Danish]

I'm appealing to logic. If we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be free to take back control. I want to know why Danish wants this to happen. Iraq will descend into genocide, and the region will be destablizied. I want to know why Danish wants this.

:rolleyes: Whatever.

[Iscariot]

I'm appealing to logic. If we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be free to take back control. I want to know why Danish wants this to happen. Iraq will descend into genocide, and the region will be destablizied. I want to know why Danish wants this.

cowardice is an emotional concept it has nothing to do with logic

[DBoons Ghost]

The Taliban have no bearing on anyone but the Afghani people, who seemed to be ok.

If they had issue, call in the UN.

The Taliban didn't attack us. There is no proof they "harbored" terrorists of any kind.

Both attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq were knee jerk reactions from a moron with too much power and bad judgement on all counts.

[1338 h4x0r]

Well, you uplift cowards and embrace cowardice. Why do you want to leave Iraq to genocide? Why do you want to subject the Afghan people to the rule of the Taliban? That is downright condemnable. Have you bothered to think about the ramifications of your desires?

Steve, just sign up for the military in his place. Problem solved!!

[Hababi]

:rolleyes: Whatever.
Thanks for dodging my point.
The Taliban have no bearing on anyone but the Afghani people, who seemed to be ok.

They weren't. At all.

If they had issue, call in the UN.

Yeah that works great. The UN only cares when white people are involved.


The Taliban didn't attack us. There is no proof they "harbored" terrorists of any kind.

Yes there is.

[mph4ever]

The Taliban have no bearing on anyone but the Afghani people, who seemed to be ok.

If they had issue, call in the UN.

The Taliban didn't attack us. There is no proof they "harbored" terrorists of any kind.

Both attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq were knee jerk reactions from a moron with too much power and bad judgement on all counts.

don't forget the pipeline and oil, that was in there somewhere

in essence what has happened is the complete demonisation of entire section of society, namely muslims. its a common disgrace when you think about the non truths that have been put about in order to contunally justify a presence in those countries

[Hababi]

don't forget the pipeline and oil, that was in there somewhere


:lol: Conspiracy theory ITT

The Taliban was harboring Bin Laden. This is a fact.

[1338 h4x0r]

:lol: Conspiracy theory ITT

The Taliban was harboring Bin Laden. This is a fact.

Incidentally, Hamid Karzai worked for Unocal, who want to build a gas pipeline through Afghanistan out to the Indian Ocean.

That might be a coincidence but, again, if you have a problem with other people's "cowardice", I invite you to enlist in the military.

[Der Übermensch]

:rolleyes: Whatever.

He has a point... now that we are there we can't very well just pack up and leave. Thats what we did last time we were involved in Afghanistan. Funded the war, and didn't fund reconstruction. Then the Taliban took power. If we had built the country back up in the first place, we wouldn't be there now.

[mph4ever]

:lol: Conspiracy theory ITT

The Taliban was harboring Bin Laden. This is a fact.

can't say if it is or not, they may well have been sympathetic towards him and his band of merry men. but the primary objective of going into afghanistan was to complete the pipeline to bring oil from azerbijani oil fields to the bay of bengal and pakistan.

unocal, had a ship named after the bitch condi rice, had to change it around the time she was made national security advisor

[1338 h4x0r]

tr00f

[Hababi]

can't say if it is or not, they may well have been sympathetic towards him and his band of merry men. but the primary objective of going into afghanistan was to complete the pipeline to bring oil from azerbijani oil fields to the bay of bengal and pakistan.


No.

[1338 h4x0r]

No.

Nobody backs up his points like Zero

Also: join the military plz

[WhoDidTheElf]

I would serve. Don't have a problem with that.

[beso negro]

sweet avatar steve who's dick did you have to suck

[Hababi]

sweet avatar steve who's dick did you have to suck

I'll rep you the answer.

[mph4ever]

No.

oh ok then. so they did really go in to save the people of afghanistan from the taliban, just like they went in to iraq to save the iraqs and they will go in to iran to save the iranians and china to save the chinese. i love the world police, putting wrongs to right, wherever you need them.

super duper power

how much does the toothfairy bring these days?

[WhoDidTheElf]

oh ok then. so they did really go in to save the people of afghanistan from the taliban, just like they went in to iraq to save the iraqs and they will go in to iran to save the iranians and china to save the chinese. i love the world police, putting wrongs to right, wherever you need them.

super duper power

how much does the toothfariy bring these days?

I thought they went into Afghanistan to bomb the **** out of the people that attacked us, not save the people?

[Hababi]

I thought they went into Afghanistan to bomb the **** out of the people that attacked us, not save the people?

Liberating the people from one of the most repressive, cruel regimes in recent history was a happy sideeffect :)

[WhoDidTheElf]

Liberating the people from one of the most repressive, cruel regimes in recent history was a happy sideeffect :)

Need the FDA to check out those side affects, they may cause uncontrollable bleeding or nausea.

But yeah, I think it was more a side effect, not the main goal.

[Hababi]

Need the FDA to check out those side affects, they may cause uncontrollable bleeding or nausea.

But yeah, I think it was more a side effect, not the main goal.

It's still a great effect. Have you read about just how bad they were? Watch the movie Osama. It's mindblowing.

[mph4ever]

for as long as you guys listen and believe the offical line then you will never hear the truth

pipeline was the objective, bombing caves was the distraction, freeing the oppressed people from the taliban was the goodwill gesture

[Hababi]

for as long as you guys listen and believe the offical line then you will never hear the truth

pipeline was the objective, bombing caves was the distraction, freeing the oppressed people from the taliban was the goodwill gesture

That's actually a stupid Michael Moore conspiracy theory that is simply not backed by that handy realm called reality.

[mph4ever]

That's actually a stupid Michael Moore conspiracy theory that is simply not backed by that handy realm called reality.

michael moore is a twat, it doesn't do any conversation justice mentioning him

[WhoDidTheElf]

for as long as you guys listen and believe the offical line then you will never hear the truth

pipeline was the objective, bombing caves was the distraction, freeing the oppressed people from the taliban was the goodwill gesture

Got any proof of this?

[mph4ever]

Got any proof of this?

nah, sure its a conspiracy, you don't expect it to be backed up with fact.

you got any proof that bin laden was in the caves or that wmds were all over iraq or that saddam was funding the terrorist network?

[1338 h4x0r]

We have the receipt for the WMDs, so it's not a conspiracy

[Iscariot]

wait they give out receipts for that now

well i guess you have to keep the checkbook balanced

[Sunshine]

**** a bunch of being drafted.
Y'know how useless I'd be on the front line?
I'd probably end up getting a shitton of people killed, there's a good reason chicks aren't up for the draft.

I'd rather be like, MI or a linguist or something. Do more good there, anyway.

[Iscariot]

actually women are eligible for the draft, at least they're required to sign up for selective service the same as men

they just aren't allowed to fight on the front lines because they're physically inferior to men tbh can you see a 110 lb girl carrying a 215 lb man out of the line of fire on her back in full battle rattle on combat terrain i don't think so

[Sunshine]

...which is exactly what I was just saying.

[1338 h4x0r]

I weigh like 125 lbs

lol

[sLarkin20]

You obviously are female then.

[Der Übermensch]

actually women are eligible for the draft, at least they're required to sign up for selective service the same as men
Not in the USA.

[sLarkin20]

Ya, I don't think they are required to sign up here like the men have to when they turn 18.

[Volumnius Flush]

And I can add that as a student at high school, the guys were specifically reminded to sign up for selective service when we turned 18. The girls are not eligible for that (though eligible is not a good word for this instance).

[Der Übermensch]

Legally obligated I think is a better word.

[Volumnius Flush]

Legally obligated I think is a better word.

Required would work just as well, imo. Funny I couldn't think of either of those at them time I posted.

[1338 h4x0r]

You obviously are female then.

Your MOM is female

[Danger Bird]

Try to file as some sort of conscientious objector or something, but failing that, just burn the draft card and refuse to serve. I don't do violence.

[Volumnius Flush]

Try to file as some sort of conscientious objector or something, but failing that, just burn the draft card and refuse to serve. I don't do violence.

But then they probably send you to prison. Or you could do what I'm doing and go to seminary!

[Danger Bird]

I'd infinitely prefer going to prison to killing a man.

[Volumnius Flush]

I'd infinitely prefer going to prison to killing a man.

I don't follow. How would you kill a man?

[Iscariot]

Not in the USA.

hmm when i had to sign up my letter said that men and women were both required to enter the program

[Danger Bird]

Serving in the military=at the very least supporting an organization created for the purpose of using violent force.

I would never put myself in a position where I would be expected to kill somebody.

[Iscariot]

they condition you not to care that much

a civlian's perspective of the military becomes entirely void once you've been trained by the military

[Danger Bird]

That was in reference to Volumnius Flush's question

[Iscariot]

oic

[Volumnius Flush]

hmm when i had to sign up my letter said that men and women were both required to enter the program

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service#Exemption_of_women

Sorry but you're wrong.

And as soon as I turn 26, I won't have to worry much about being drafted according to Wikipedia. It goes from 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 19, 18.5 years in the age order they began conscription.

[Iscariot]

i'm just saying what my letter told me

i'm not surprised that i'm wrong the government has given me a lot of misinformation in writing on several occasions

[Volumnius Flush]

i'm just saying what my letter told me

i'm not surprised that i'm wrong the government has given me a lot of misinformation in writing on several occasions

I find it awfully hard to believe the US government would be as grossly incompetent as to tell you that women have compulsory Selective Service sign up. :rolleyes:

[Iscariot]

believe what you want it doesn't matter to me i know the kind of misinformation the government will hand out and then go back on later when you ask someone about it in person i dealt with a plethora of it during my enlistment

you've never been in the military though so you don't know the crap paperwork that is involved with it

[Danger Bird]

I find it awfully hard to believe the US government would be as grossly incompetent as to tell you that women have compulsory Selective Service sign up. :rolleyes:

How long have you lived here?

[Volumnius Flush]

How long have you lived here?

All of my life.

[Der Übermensch]

hmm when i had to sign up my letter said that men and women were both required to enter the program

Weird... definitely not so though. All male citizens and male resident aliens I think are required to, but no women.

Veeery few countries draft women... Israel is all I can think of.

[Iscariot]

like i said the misinformation doesn't surprise me

[pedro durruti]

I was going to make a thread similar to this a few days ago.. how large a difference is there between enslavement and conscription?

[Jude]

I'm an anti-military pacifist and I'm going to say, a pretty ****in big difference

[Danish]

He has a point... now that we are there we can't very well just pack up and leave. Thats what we did last time we were involved in Afghanistan. Funded the war, and didn't fund reconstruction. Then the Taliban took power. If we had built the country back up in the first place, we wouldn't be there now.

Not even comparable situations.

I think it's arrogant to think that we need to go over there to "show these people how they should live". Neocolonialism.

[Hababi]

Not even comparable situations.

I think it's arrogant to think that we need to go over there to "show these people how they should live". Neocolonialism.

The Taliban executed people for improper beard length. They executed women for speaking in public, or not being fully covered.

If you don't think that's wrong enough to warrant intervention then there's something wrong with you.

In the Kingdom of Rwanda, girls were executed if they reached maturity without menstrating or developing breasts. Was that ok? Should that have been left alone?

[Danish]

No, obviously those things aren't ok. But that's not why we invaded Afghanistan. And we didn't do anything to stop the Rwandan genocide, even though we knew it was happening. And we aren't doing anything to stop genocide in Darfur.

Our governments don't care about human rights. Let's look at Canada for a minute. Many Aboriginal peoples in this country live in abject poverty without access to basics like clean drinking water. And what does the gov't do? Arrests activists trying to change things. They use violence to suppress them. The UN has condemned the Canadian gov't for this, yet it continues to happen.

Our countries, the US and Canada, were founded on imperialist principles (genocide of First Nations, enslavement of Africans, etc.). This legacy is alive and well.

[Der Übermensch]

Not even comparable situations.
Not even comparable!? Wtf!?

In the first instance, we fund a rag-tag bunch of militants who manage to defeat the intrenched power, purely because of our support, and then we leave after the power vacuum is created, but before any means to stability have been established. This time, we've only gotten as far as 'we fund a rag-tag bunch of militants who manage to defeat the intrenched power, purely because of our support,' but if we leave, we can be damn sure what the end will be again.

I think it's arrogant to think that we need to go over there to "show these people how they should live". Neocolonialism.
Please quote the line where I said "lets show these people how they should live". I believe the line I said was "now that we are there we can't very well just pack up and leave." I don't give a **** what kind of culture they have or want to have. I simply believe in not doing something half-assed, and cleaning up what ever mess you make.
In of itself, we have no business going into Afghanistan. However, they were openly harboring terrorists who had attacked American soil, which gave us the raison d'etat, on the level of international law, to go in and do something about it, no different than the police entering the house of a man harboring a murderer. Once there, we created a power vacuum via our actions, and thus were morally obligated to stay and reconstruct what we destroyed. Had the Taliban been minding their own business, sure, you have a fine point. But they weren't. It wasn't about showing them how to live, it was about not letting them dictate how we do.

Now stop putting words in my mouth, I would think you know me better than to surmise that from me.


In the Kingdom of Rwanda, girls were executed if they reached maturity without menstrating or developing breasts. Was that ok? Should that have been left alone?
We didn't though...?

[Hababi]

But that's not why we invaded Afghanistan.

That doesn't matter.


And we didn't do anything to stop the Rwandan genocide, even though we knew it was happening.

And why was that? Because a couple of Clinton aids used the line that you did, essentially saying that it'd be seen as neocolonialism to intervene, that this is just how them Africans do things, and of course that it would be politically untenable after the debacle in Somolia.


And we aren't doing anything to stop genocide in Darfur.

Primarily due to China's meddling.



Our governments don't care about human rights.

Then why were sanctions passed against South Africa? Why did the Clinton administration tie import levels of Cambodian textiles to worker conditions? Of course the government cares, at a basic level, about human rights. It's just that political considerations moderate the willpower to do anything about it.

But you were the one saying that we shouldn't do anything, that it's cultural imperialism.

Let's look at Canada for a minute. Many Aboriginal peoples in this country live in abject poverty without access to basics like clean drinking water. And what does the gov't do? Arrests activists trying to change things. They use violence to suppress them. The UN has condemned the Canadian gov't for this, yet it continues to happen.

I must say that this sounds like loony toon talk. Of course, I don't follow Canadian politics so hopefully Dropper or another Canuck will chime in here.


Our countries, the US and Canada, were founded on imperialist principles (genocide of First Nations, enslavement of Africans, etc.). This legacy is alive and well.

The country was not founded on the 'principle' of slavery. That's just false. The country used slavery for centuries, as did every country. Slavery is now a thing of the distant past in America. It is a thing of the present in Sudan and Mauritania. And it seems like you'd object to trying to stop it, because that'd be neocolonialism.

[Hababi]

We didn't though...?

They stopped doing it once they were under colonial authority. They also stopped attaching the genitals of slain enemies to their sacred drums, because they knew the colonial authorities wouldn't approve of it.

[Der Übermensch]

The country was not founded on the 'principle' of slavery. That's just false. The country used slavery for centuries, as did every country. Slavery is now a thing of the distant past in America. It is a thing of the present in Sudan and Mauritania. And it seems like you'd object to trying to stop it, because that'd be neocolonialism.

Founded on Indentured Servitude maybe? :p

They stopped doing it once they were under colonial authority. They also stopped attaching the genitals of slain enemies to their sacred drums, because they knew the colonial authorities wouldn't approve of it.
ooooo... I thought u meant in '93.

[Hababi]

Founded on Indentured Servitude maybe? :p

Well the state of Georgia was. Virginia had a lot of it too.

[beso negro]

The Taliban executed people for improper beard length. They executed women for speaking in public, or not being fully covered.

If you don't think that's wrong enough to warrant intervention then there's something wrong with you.

In the Kingdom of Rwanda, girls were executed if they reached maturity without menstrating or developing breasts. Was that ok? Should that have been left alone?

nothing wrong with those things. sure i think they are stupid as **** for doing them but that's their culture.

[Hababi]

ooooo... I thought u meant in '93.

Yeah, the French armed the Interahamwe and then tried to stop international intervention. Then when they stepped in, it was to shield the Hutu militias from the IDF, which allowed more killings to go on.

Mitterand's government basically were war criminals.

[Hababi]

nothing wrong with those things.

Wait you think there's nothing wrong with executing a girl for reaching maturity without breast development? I sure hope you don't have kids then! :lol:

[Der Übermensch]

nothing wrong with those things. sure i think they are stupid as **** for doing them but that's their culture.

Taking cultural relativism a bit to the extreme?

I think I'll found a culture who's sole religious practice is castrating people who's internet names are "beso negro". Nothing wrong with it, right?

[beso negro]

like i said i would never do such a thing. women should speak in public and they should never be covered. imo they should be nood 24/7.

[Hababi]

like i said i would never do such a thing. women should speak in public and they should never be covered. imo they should be nood 24/7.

No you're just ok with other people doing it. The South's culture was plantation slavery. The North intervened and forced their cultural values on them. Imperialists!

[beso negro]

those situations don't compare at all.

[Hababi]

those situations don't compare at all.

You mean it's ok when brown/black people are doing it?

[Danish]

Not even comparable!? Wtf!?

In the first instance, we fund a rag-tag bunch of militants who manage to defeat the intrenched power, purely because of our support, and then we leave after the power vacuum is created, but before any means to stability have been established. This time, we've only gotten as far as 'we fund a rag-tag bunch of militants who manage to defeat the intrenched power, purely because of our support,' but if we leave, we can be damn sure what the end will be again.

But the US was never "in Afghanistan"; the CIA was giving billions to the Muhajadeen (sp?) so they could resist Soviet invasion. The US didn't do this with any intentions other than weakening the Soviet Union, and it worked.

The US had no intentions of improving Afghan society then, and they have no such intentions today.

Please quote the line where I said "lets show these people how they should live". I believe the line I said was "now that we are there we can't very well just pack up and leave." I don't give a **** what kind of culture they have or want to have. I simply believe in not doing something half-assed, and cleaning up what ever mess you make.
In of itself, we have no business going into Afghanistan. However, they were openly harboring terrorists who had attacked American soil, which gave us the raison d'etat, on the level of international law, to go in and do something about it, no different than the police entering the house of a man harboring a murderer. Once there, we created a power vacuum via our actions, and thus were morally obligated to stay and reconstruct what we destroyed. Had the Taliban been minding their own business, sure, you have a fine point. But they weren't. It wasn't about showing them how to live, it was about not letting them dictate how we do.

I wasn't implying that that is what you think, sorry if that came through. I think that's the general attitude of Canada's colonial role, their role in support of US aggression.

Even if we had noble intentions, like building democracy in Afghanistan, I would contend that it's impossible. Democracy is something that is built from within, by social movements within that country demanding change and fighting for it.

And the invasion of Afghanistan is in violation of international law as well.

Now stop putting words in my mouth, I would think you know me better than to surmise that from me.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. You're absolutely right, I know you better!

[Hababi]

The US had no intentions of improving Afghan society then, and they have no such intentions today.


Nevermind that the standard of living for Afghanis has improved dramatically since the fall of the Taliban.


Even if we had noble intentions, like building democracy in Afghanistan, I would contend that it's impossible. Democracy is something that is built from within, by social movements within that country demanding change and fighting for it.


See: Japan, Botswana

[beso negro]

You mean it's ok when brown/black people are doing it?

first of all that was a civil war. second the blacks were taken from Africa. they weren't part of the south's "culture."

[Hababi]

first of all that was a civil war.

It was one people imposing their culture on another.


second the blacks were taken from Africa. they weren't part of the south's "culture."

They became part of it the same as captured slaves became part of the culture in every slaveowning kingdom of Africa.

[Der Übermensch]

But the US was never "in Afghanistan"; the CIA was giving billions to the Muhajadeen (sp?) so they could resist Soviet invasion. The US didn't do this with any intentions other than weakening the Soviet Union, and it worked.
Which was what we did this time too. The actual overthrowing of the Taliban was done by the Northern Alliance, backed by the CIA and a very very small cadre of SF units. The difference is that this time, instead of leaving after we threw out the people we didn't like, we have made a commitment to not letting the same end happen again. If anything, we need should be making more of a commitment, but unfortunately, Bush had a fetish for Iraq.

Even if we had noble intentions, like building democracy in Afghanistan, I would contend that it's impossible. Democracy is something that is built from within, by social movements within that country demanding change and fighting for it.
I agree Democracy can't be forced, but it is a lot easier to start thinking about Democracy when you don't have to worry about having your head chopped off cause your beard is the wrong length. What we can do in Afghanistan, what we MUST do, is get the ball rolling. Thats what we didn't do last time. We left the country looking a step worse then hell. War-torn and desolate, without even the most basic infrastructure. Rebuilding that infrastructure, returning Afghanistan to what it once was pre-Soviets - one of the most stable and prosperous of the Central Asian nations, not to mention an open, liberal society by the standards of the region - is perhaps the most important and necessary things we can do to expedite their own development.

[sLarkin20]

I like how almost 3 times as many people here would dodge the draft, rather than go :]

According to the poll results, at least.

[illpressureurhinges1]

Isn't it if you're in college or going to college, you can't be drafted or something of that manner?

[sLarkin20]

I'm not sure how that works, but that would be one of the few things that would make me want to dodge the draft. If I am still in college at the time, that is.

[Mr. Ron]

Can't you just say that you're gay?

[sLarkin20]

I think you used to be able to say that and it would disqualify you, like during the Vietnam War, but I don't think it works like that today.

[Mr. Ron]

But what if I suck cawk! What will that do to moral!?


wait...

[sLarkin20]

Maybe if you're like really really flamboyant, they might just tell you to go away or something.

[Mr. Ron]

I would bedazzle and embroider their bullet proof vests. Now how will you stop us, Islam. HOW?

[Danish]

If soldiers love each other, they are more likely to fight for each other. The Greeks knew this well.

[WhoDidTheElf]

That also brings in more problems of favoritism, though.

[Der Übermensch]

I like how almost 3 times as many people here would dodge the draft, rather than go :]

I didn't vote. I wouldn't dodge though, but thats because I'm currently a 2S, and possibly would be 4F regardless. It doesn't especially worry me, as there is no way I can do front line service. My arches are non-existent. I am physically unable to run a mile due to the pain caused by prolonged running.

[sLarkin20]

I think that everyone who voted to dodge the draft needs to pick someone on here to be their fake gay lover in case the draft comes around.

[1338 h4x0r]

dibs on Mr. Ron <333333

[Mr. Ron]

4ev<3

[Apollyon]

Can't you just say that you're gay?

no because everyone tries to play that card

i can't even count how many people tried to pull that one when i was in basic and they were completely ignored

[mph4ever]

Which was what we did this time too. The actual overthrowing of the Taliban was done by the Northern Alliance, backed by the CIA and a very very small cadre of SF units. The difference is that this time, instead of leaving after we threw out the people we didn't like, we have made a commitment to not letting the same end happen again. If anything, we need should be making more of a commitment, but unfortunately, Bush had a fetish for Iraq.


what i really don't get is how anyone can justify invading a soverign state in the first place. is it ok for afghani nationalists to invade america and turn it in to an islamic republic because america forces so many people to live as drug abusers, alcoholics and prostitutes and any money you borrow is done on the basis of profiteering by the lender?

i'm not saying that what america is doing is wrong for the people of afghanistan, thats a different debate, i just don't know where we draw the line in what is acceptable intervention

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

I live in Canada and have a few couches in my basement in case any of you guys need hiding.

[1338 h4x0r]

do you have spare pillows

I'm coming over to your house regardless of any draft btw

[Jude]

what i really don't get is how anyone can justify invading a soverign state in the first place. is it ok for afghani nationalists to invade america and turn it in to an islamic republic because america forces so many people to live as drug abusers, alcoholics and prostitutes and any money you borrow is done on the basis of profiteering by the lender?

i'm not saying that what america is doing is wrong for the people of afghanistan, thats a different debate, i just don't know where we draw the line in what is acceptable intervention

In practice there isn't a line because we are buddies with worse governments than some we've overthrown and vice versa

It all depends on the situation and who hops off our dick

[mph4ever]

In practice there isn't a line because we are buddies with worse governments than some we've overthrown and vice versa

It all depends on the situation and who hops off our dick

or if theres pipelines, oil fields and zionists involved:rolleyes:

[Danish]

In practice there isn't a line because we are buddies with worse governments than some we've overthrown and vice versa

It all depends on the situation and who hops off our dick

Realism in a nutshell!

[Volumnius Flush]

I was going to make a thread similar to this a few days ago.. how large a difference is there between enslavement and conscription?

Some claim it violates the Thirteenth Amendment which outlaws slavery and involuntary servitude, but the Court's ruling on the original intent of the initial writing suggests that it would not cover the legal issue of conscription.

[Der Übermensch]

what i really don't get is how anyone can justify invading a soverign state in the first place.

You can justify it if the nation you are invading violated your own sovereignty. In this case they were openly harboring a known terrorist who had committed an act of war on US soil, and refused to hand him over. International law was fully behind us.

is it ok for afghani nationalists to invade america and turn it in to an islamic republic because america forces so many people to live as drug abusers, alcoholics and prostitutes and any money you borrow is done on the basis of profiteering by the lender?
No, and that's not why we invaded them. Is it ok for the police to enter the house of a third party to arrest a known murderer? Thats more comparable.

[mph4ever]

You can justify it if the nation you are invading violated your own sovereignty. In this case they were openly harboring a known terrorist who had committed an act of war on US soil, and refused to hand him over. International law was fully behind us.

i have yet to fully understand this international law. are you saying that it was internatonally legal to invade afghanistan on the presumption that there were known criminals hiding in the caves? that must require very serious evidence to get the international community to support this. weren't there countries that didn't support this?


No, and that's not why we invaded them. Is it ok for the police to enter the house of a third party to arrest a known murderer? Thats more comparable.
only is they have a warrant. is there such a thing as an international warrant? and if so then who signs it?

[Danish]

You can justify it if the nation you are invading violated your own sovereignty. In this case they were openly harboring a known terrorist who had committed an act of war on US soil, and refused to hand him over. International law was fully behind us.

No, and that's not why we invaded them. Is it ok for the police to enter the house of a third party to arrest a known murderer? Thats more comparable.

But the United States never did provide evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved. Even if Osama made a video saying "I did it", there is still a process for extradition that must be followed according to international law.

If we follow your logic (and that of the US), then Haiti has the right to invade the US and drop bombs on New York City.

[Volumnius Flush]

If we follow your logic (and that of the US), then Haiti has the right to invade the US and drop bombs on New York City.

And so what if they did? Last I checked they didn't have the resources for such a large-scale military operation and plus we could wipe their entire country out in a matter of a few nukes. Preeminence ftw!

[sLarkin20]

Haha, seriously. If they have the right, it's not like they will ; ]

[Der Übermensch]

But the United States never did provide evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved. Even if Osama made a video saying "I did it", there is still a process for extradition that must be followed according to international law.
We have pretty solid links, and know that even if he wasn't the direct planner, his organization certainly provided training to many involved. Even without 9/11, after the Embassy bombings, which were linked to him, we had enough reason.
We requested his extradition, and received a nice '**** you'.

If we follow your logic (and that of the US), then Haiti has the right to invade the US and drop bombs on New York City.
Yeah, they probably do have the right. I'd like to see them try.

[Hababi]

There's also that bit about the Taliban being illegitimate rulers governing in virtually the worst conceivable way. We gave their pathetic regime more repsect than they ever deserved. We should've just dropped big bombs on their complexes.

[Against Miik!]

Yeah, they probably do have the right. I'd like to see them try.

You know, years ago, people probably said the same thing about them crazy muslims out in the desert.

[Der Übermensch]

i have yet to fully understand this international law. are you saying that it was internatonally legal to invade afghanistan on the presumption that there were known criminals hiding in the caves? that must require very serious evidence to get the international community to support this. weren't there countries that didn't support this?
International law isn't really law. It's conventions and treaties agreed upon by nations as being binding, and enforced by the idea of mutual reciprocation.
To invade Afghanistan was 'legal' because it was sanctioned by a large body of nations, many of whom contributed logistical or material support during and after. When it comes to International law, the deciding factor is agreement, and that was widely present with Afghanistan (Iraq is another issue)


only is they have a warrant. is there such a thing as an international warrant? and if so then who signs it?
The support of the UN is the best I can offer, and we had it.

[Der Übermensch]

There's also that bit about the Taliban being illegitimate rulers governing in virtually the worst conceivable way. We gave their pathetic regime more repsect than they ever deserved. We should've just dropped big bombs on their complexes.

Heh, personally I would have supported invading to prevent them from destroying those awesome Buddha statues, but the Buddha probably would not have appreciated the irony :p

You know, years ago, people probably said the same thing about them crazy muslims out in the desert.
Yep. We are reaping what we sowed.

[Against Miik!]

Yes we are. So I'm just saying, the "I'd like to see them try" attitude isn't really a good one to have.

[Hababi]

Our policy in Haiti has been pretty good, while creepy leftist groups supported that crooked thug who was offing enemies.