USA Elections/Primaries

[spirit]

Many of you will be aware that Barack Obama has declared his victory as of about 3:00am GMT (or so). Anyone listening to either Clinton's or Obama's speeches will notice a curious change in the way in which they refer to each other. Whereas they were respectful beforehand, they have been downright complimentary of late, and that suggests to me that they are making every effort to unify the Democratic party. I'd say that it's a distinctly shrewd move on both their parts, as no matter who wins (though I believe Obama has all but won), the Clinton supporters will have a respect for Obamas', and vice versa.

I could go on, but I suppose I should cut to the chase:

Does anyone else believe that Clinton and Obama have reached an understanding where Clinton will be Obama's running mate?

Does anyone honestly believe that America is ready for change?

And, a mildly self-centered question, but how do you think either or outcome would affect the USA's "special relationship" with Britain?

[Volumnius Flush]

Many of you will be aware that Barack Obama has declared his victory as of about 3:00am GMT (or so). Anyone listening to either Clinton's or Obama's speeches will notice a curious change in the way in which they refer to each other. Whereas they were respectful beforehand, they have been downright complimentary of late, and that suggests to me that they are making every effort to unify the Democratic party. I'd say that it's a distinctly shrewd move on both their parts, as no matter who wins (though I believe Obama has all but won), the Clinton supporters will have a respect for Obamas', and vice versa.

I could go on, but I suppose I should cut to the chase:

Does anyone else believe that Clinton and Obama have reached an understanding where Clinton will be Obama's running mate?

Does anyone honestly believe that America is ready for change?

And, a mildly self-centered question, but how do you think either or outcome would affect the USA's "special relationship" with Britain?

I believe Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will be running mates. They are so lovey-dovey how can they not be?

[dei]

Any Clinton supporters who vote McCain only to ruin Obama should be drowned.

[Volumnius Flush]

Any Clinton supporters who vote McCain only to ruin Obama should be drowned.

But this is a free country and we can't do that in free countries. Just because they have differing beliefs doesn't mean they are less of a person (well it might), and it doesn't make them a bad person... Just different :)

[spirit]

I believe Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will be running mates. They are so lovey-dovey how can they not be?

My thoughts exactly.

I think that combined, they will be a difficult foe to face for McCain. They have rekindled interest in the political process amongst the Democrats of the nations, whereas McCain won outright so very long ago. They have both gained momentum where McCains' campaign has stagnated.

[Sunshine]

Bob Barr for president!!

Naw, I actually have no idea who he is, beyond just being the Libertarian candidate, but that's who both of my parents are voting for. My dad's actually a Libertarian, my mom's a Republican who hates McCain and doesn't want to blow up Iran.

[mph4ever]

obama needs someone better than bill clintons wife on his side to beat mccain. they are two sitting ducks for the republicans. i still think that clinton would have given mccain a better fight, again though, she would have to have a strong running mate and obama does not do this. other issue is that they have torn strips off each other for the past 12 months, if they do team up then the republicans will seriously challenge them on the basis of their reconcilliation and indecision.

hate to say it but mccain is home and dry

[Jude]

The pro of Obama-Clinton ticket is that it will attract all the ****nut Clinton fans, whether white working class people who don't trust a black person or rabid feminist wackos who would vote for McCain just to spite Obama for winning

The con is that it would also alienate all the dumbshits who hate Clinton because they hate her husband

[Knifeboy]

Obama will not choose Clinton for VP


hate to say it but mccain is home and dry

mccain couldn't win even if he was running against a crippled moose

[Akira]

Any Clinton supporters who vote McCain only to ruin Obama should be drowned.

Yes. God yes.

[Iscariot]

obama already publicly announced not long ago that he would not take on clinton as a running mate nor did he have any intention of reconsidering the option

[dei]

I can't remember if it was today or yesterday, but I watched a clip where Obama says he's willing to discuss the idea with Clinton.

[DBoons Ghost]

I will be voting for Obama.

Given the percentage of the popular vote Hitlery Cunton has it might not be a bad idea for Obama to choose her as a running mate.

However, it's unlikely the electoral college will allow a ****** and a whore to be running this country when there is an old crackity white dude who's been in the military readily available.

Sorry but McCain's gonna win in a similar fashion to what happened in 2000.

[Knifeboy]

Obama would alienate a lot of his independent voter appeal by choosing Hillary, not to mention, he'd be seen as dishonest and wishy washy for not sticking to his ideals, Clinton is everything Obama doesn't want to be associated with


Oh yeah, and how would he be able to sleep at night, knowing that the only thing standing between hillary and the presidency was a bullet....

[Against Miik!]

Obama will NOT choose Hillary as his running mate. People like him because he is fresh face, the embodiment of this change that he speaks about. Those same voters view the Clintons as the embodiment of corruption. There would be no advantage to him picking her as a running mate. Hell, he is already up on McCain in national polls. He doesn't need her.

And speaking of change, in his first foreign policy speech since becoming the nominee, what does Barack declare he will do? Anyone? Anyone have any guesses? Is it something mind blowing and new and fresh? A completely new direction than any we have every taken before?

Naw, of course not. The first thing he committed to is an unwavering support for Israel!!!!

[mph4ever]

Obama will not choose Clinton for VP
mccain couldn't win even if he was running against a crippled moose


obama is high in the ratings right now since he has been all over the press because of how long it took to secure the democratic nomination. mccain has not even started. that plus rising tensions in the middle east will really stir it up. if america wants change then they will vote obama, if it wants continuity then mccain will walk it. if they are scared about oil and war then mccain will walk it.

unless obama's running mate is someone held in high esteem like, like i have heard of webb and strickland being mentioned.

[Against Miik!]

Webb would be a good choice. Strickland much less so and he was a pretty heavy Hillary supporter. Not like that matters though. If someone offers you the vice presidency, you generally don't turn it down.

I've always thought Obama/Edwards was more of a dream ticket than Obama/Clinton. They seem to have much more in common.

[Jude]

Obama will NOT choose Hillary as his running mate. People like him because he is fresh face, the embodiment of this change that he speaks about. Those same voters view the Clintons as the embodiment of corruption. There would be no advantage to him picking her as a running mate. Hell, he is already up on McCain in national polls. He doesn't need her.

A lot of Democrats actually really like Bill Clinton

And speaking of change, in his first foreign policy speech since becoming the nominee, what does Barack declare he will do? Anyone? Anyone have any guesses? Is it something mind blowing and new and fresh? A completely new direction than any we have every taken before?

Naw, of course not. The first thing he committed to is an unwavering support for Israel!!!!
Ugh I was disgusted by that but the fact is you can't get elected unless you hop all over the dick of the Zionist lobby

[Iskandar]

Obama/Edwards would be nice but it won't happen because Edwards wants to be out of the public eye these days.
hate to say it but mccain is home and dryAfter eight years of Bush, I think the Republicans might be on their way out.

[Jude]

After eight years of Bush, I think the Republicans might be on their way out.

My first guess would be yeah, but the stupidity, racism and vulnerability to manipulation by fear of the American voting public never ceases to amaze. Don't put anything past them.

[Iskandar]

Obama said he was commited to a Palestinian state, but with Jerusalem as the eternal, undivided capital of Israel and all that crap.

If there's ever going to be peace they're going to have to face that half of Jerusalem is populated by Arabs who want it to be their capital too.

[Against Miik!]

A lot of Democrats actually really like Bill Clinton

Ugh I was disgusted by that but the fact is you can't get elected unless you hop all over the dick of the Zionist lobby

I'm sure Bill still has a lot of support, but he has lost a lot since the 90's, and in many cases, that support doesn't really apply to Hillary. If it did, she'd probably be the nominee right now.

As for the Israel thing, that is were SOOO much hostility towards the west comes from in the middle east. I'm not saying that we should abandon them because of that. But the thing is, Israel does not need our help. They basically have our military. We given them everything, nukes included. They can defend themselves. So given the choice, I think we should choose to back off.

The whole pro Israel, eliminate Iran rhetoric that Obama has been displaying recently not only is not a change, it sounds eerily similar to the Bush administration, and just about every administration in the last 50 years (except substitute Iran with another country full of brown people)

[Iscariot]

Sorry but McCain's gonna win in a similar fashion to what happened in 2000.

no he won't

mccain's hardly even getting any press coverage anymore he's not exactly two steps shy of the finish line

[Knifeboy]

Bill had a whole lot more support before these primaries started.
He suffered a lot of damage due to trying to promote his wife

[Against Miik!]

Actually McCain has a much better shot at winning than you all think. I think you all underestimate what powerful people money can do when they want something to happen.

[Knifeboy]

McCain is too reminiscent of Bush when he misspeaks and talks about **** that he knows nothing about .


But you are right, bush was elected for a second term, so yes, americans could vote for mcCain

[Iscariot]

but they most likely won't

[Knifeboy]

Yeah, I severely doubt they will

[Jude]

Obama said he was commited to a Palestinian state, but with Jerusalem as the eternal, undivided capital of Israel and all that crap.
That **** makes me want to puke out of cheesiness and also out of complete lack of grasp on reality and fellatio of American Jews who care enough abotu Israel to make noise about it and ensure Palestinians get ****ed over, but not enough to actually live there because the fact that their lives are so good here actually refutes all the arguments for Israel's existence in the first place



If there's ever going to be peace they're going to have to face that half of Jerusalem is populated by Arabs who want it to be their capital too.

Another reason why a 2 state solution is a pipe dream that even if it happens, will never work

As for the Israel thing, that is were SOOO much hostility towards the west comes from in the middle east. I'm not saying that we should abandon them because of that. But the thing is, Israel does not need our help. They basically have our military. We given them everything, nukes included. They can defend themselves. So given the choice, I think we should choose to back off.
We maybe shouldn't abandon them (although we shouldn't have supported its creation in 48) but we should treat them with actual accountability instead of blindly supporting them despite the massive illegal and inhumane actions they're taking in the West Bank

If their support from America depended on their respecting human rights they'd clean up their act real quick

The whole pro Israel, eliminate Iran rhetoric that Obama has been displaying recently not only is not a change, it sounds eerily similar to the Bush administration, and just about every administration in the last 50 years (except substitute Iran with another country full of brown people)
Hopefully it's just the necessary talk that will be replaced by more sane action once he's elected

Actually McCain has a much better shot at winning than you all think. I think you all underestimate what powerful people money can do when they want something to happen.
That and
the stupidity, racism and vulnerability to manipulation by fear of the American voting public never ceases to amaze. Don't put anything past them.

[Against Miik!]

Hopefully it's just the necessary talk that will be replaced by more sane action once he's elected

What is it about Obama though that we can give him the benefit of the doubt on this? Has the democratic party as a whole done anything different these last eight years than the republicans? No. They just say different things. Why people think Obama is any different is beyond me, and one of the reasons I dislike him.

Whoever compares his speaking style to Hitler is dead on. Obv not saying he is gonna do anything like Hitler, but this army of blind supporters he has created is just astounding.

[Iscariot]

comparing obama to hitler is like comparing elephants to a shrub it makes no sense

obama and kennedy is a more likely comparison

[Jude]

What is it about Obama though that we can give him the benefit of the doubt on this? Has the democratic party as a whole done anything different these last eight years than the republicans? No. They just say different things. Why people think Obama is any different is beyond me, and one of the reasons I dislike him.
We'll see
Apart from Israel I like some of his far-left (by American politics standards obviously) ideas and mostly I just want a black ****in president



Whoever compares his speaking style to Hitler is dead on. Obv not saying he is gonna do anything like Hitler, but this army of blind supporters he has created is just astounding.

That's sort of true but it's not really any different than the idiot hordes that vote for any other major ticket candidate...it's jsut that he's young and exciting and appeals to people who otherwise didn't care about politics, so he has a following which is a different demographic than the other idiot hordes

[Against Miik!]

Again, my point is this.

The man talks about change, but he is going to be elected by, as you put it, an idiot horde who cares more about style than substance. That sounds like every ****ing president that has been elected.

And Kennedy and Obama isn't a very good comparison, besides the fact that they are young and speak well. Kennedy was actually a half decent president in his short time, although I think that he kind of lucked out with the missile crisis, and McNamara really did everything anyways.

[Iskandar]

Obama's political views are great compared to the Republicans. He's a solidly liberal candidate, something America is desperately in need of after almost a decade of irresponsible neoconservatives.

[mph4ever]

just for the record, mccain will win.

no other reasoning than the job the republicans set out to do on behalf of the corporations through the bush/cheney junta is not finished and there is too much at stake if there is a risk of change rather than continuity.

it really doesn't matter what the political figureheads do or think any more. the media will decide who is president and at a certain point their owners will decide to row in behind mccain, they may leave it look like a fair contest but mccain will win in the end through forceful propaganda, the type of propaganda that allowed american troops to enter iraq

[Against Miik!]

Everything right now is connected to the conflict in the middle east. War, obv, gas prices, deflation of the dollar (partly due to spending), environment (tangled mess w/ oil companies, reasons for war etc...), and just about everything else that is receiving inadequate funding (education, infrastructure), because its all going to the damn military. Its all connected to that, and as long as Obama is for continuing this vague war on terror, which he is, I see no reason why he would be an exponentially better choice than anybody else, McCain included.

[Volumnius Flush]

My thoughts exactly.

I think that combined, they will be a difficult foe to face for McCain. They have rekindled interest in the political process amongst the Democrats of the nations, whereas McCain won outright so very long ago. They have both gained momentum where McCains' campaign has stagnated.

If you look at the primary exit polls, and compare the # of votes cumulative per the Democratic party versus the Republican, the Democrats on average outnumbered Republican turnout by something like over 20%.

Now that isn't to say that for the general election that more voters won't turn out, which they will in fact, but if the primaries are any indication, the Democrats will win the popular vote in November.

[1338 h4x0r]

Obama said he was commited to a Palestinian state, but with Jerusalem as the eternal, undivided capital of Israel and all that crap.


That makes no sense. Barack Hussein Osama is a secret Muslim.

Yeah I think McCain's going to win. How's the weather up there btw?

[Volumnius Flush]

That makes no sense. Barack Hussein Osama is a secret Muslim.

Yeah I think McCain's going to win. How's the weather up there btw?

Remember his Freudian slip about 57 states? Yeah, try 57 states in the OIC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OIC

[1338 h4x0r]

I hope you're not serious

[Volumnius Flush]

I hope you're not serious

He accidentally slipped up and said 57, thinking about the OIC in the back of his head, when he really meant to say 50.

[1338 h4x0r]

And you're serious about this?

[Against Miik!]

Well maybe the 57 states thing is a bad example, but John McCain has proven many times that is not mentally coherent enough right now to be in the white house, much less over the course of the next few years.

[1338 h4x0r]

He probably meant that he had been through seven states twice.

[Against Miik!]

Maybe, but he is still going crazy.

[Volumnius Flush]

And you're serious about this?

I'm dead serious. Obama's vision is to be the leader of the soon-to-be 58 states of the OIC.

[ringworm]

Does anyone honestly believe that America is ready for change?

i think so, for this man to be beating the pants off the other established candidates, it has to send a message about the american people

dropper once something is wrong with america, i hope some good is showing

[Against Miik!]

I think Barack is perfect for America. Nothing is better than the illusion of change without any actual change.

[Iscariot]

I think Barack is perfect for America. Nothing is better than the illusion of change without any actual change.

oh shut up if you had your way ron paul would be running the country and we'd be living in anarchy

[BassRevelation1029]

Does anyone else believe that Clinton and Obama have reached an understanding where Clinton will be Obama's running mate?
it won't happen

Does anyone honestly believe that America is ready for change?
If 'change' equates 'partial black president,' then partially, they are ready.

Other than that, Obama won't drastically change America unless he's hiding something

And, a mildly self-centered question, but how do you think either or outcome would affect the USA's "special relationship" with Britain?
I can't see such a large divide between the two countries unless McCain goes a little right while the Labour party is still running the show.

[MattSharpIsCool]

I'm dead serious. Obama's vision is to be the leader of the soon-to-be 58 states of the OIC.

You do know that Obama isn't a Muslim, right?

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm dead serious. Obama's vision is to be the leader of the soon-to-be 58 states of the OIC.

You're full of ****.

Five dollars says that, if Obama is elected, then we don't join the OIC.

And if McCain wins you'd still owe me five dollars because F -> T == T.

[Against Miik!]

oh shut up if you had your way ron paul would be running the country and we'd be living in anarchy

Ahh well thats a mature response instead of just proving how I am wrong (which I'm not).

[Volumnius Flush]

You're full of ****.

Five dollars says that, if Obama is elected, then we don't join the OIC.

And if McCain wins you'd still owe me five dollars because F -> T == T.

I bet ten we don't join the OIC. You know plagiarism is wrong according to the Bible?


You do know that Obama isn't a Muslim, right?

Yeah that's right commie.

[McP3000]

Regardless to whether Obama is muslim or not, he will obviously feel more sympathetic and related to the middle-east.

[1338 h4x0r]

I bet ten we don't join the OIC. You know plagiarism is wrong according to the Bible?

I didn't plagiarize anything.

Yeah that's right commie.

Obama is a Xian.

Regardless to whether Obama is muslim or not, he will obviously feel more sympathetic and related to the middle-east.

Why? His father is Kenyan.

[Volumnius Flush]

I didn't plagiarize anything.

I didn't say you did. Someone that smart making such an illogical inference... :rolleyes:

[Against Miik!]

Yeah why exactly? His father was Kenyan, and he studied in I think it was Indonesia as a child, neither are middle east.

So if you are saying he may feeling more sympathetic towards people who aren't Americans, then maybe, but would you say that is a problem?

[Iscariot]

having a heart for diplomacy is a wonderful trait in a president

[Volumnius Flush]

Yeah why exactly? His father was Kenyan, and he studied in I think it was Indonesia as a child, neither are middle east.

So if you are saying he may feeling more sympathetic towards people who aren't Americans, then maybe, but would you say that is a problem?

He might be sympathetic because his father was a Muslim, but then again his father did walk out on him...

[Against Miik!]

So ****ing what my dad was in marketing does that mean that if I was president I would give all ad agencyies like a billion dollars and sexual favors? No. People put too much emphasis on that ****.

[Iskandar]

dropper once something is wrong with america, i hope some good is showingThe fact that you guys choose Barack shows that things are turning around for the USA.:)
I think Barack is perfect for America. Nothing is better than the illusion of change without any actual change.Leaving Iraq would be just a bit of a big policy change.

That and abandoning the idiotic and reactionary economic policies of the last eight years (Oil is limitless! Tax cuts for the top quintile! Global warming isn't real!).
Yeah I think McCain's going to win. How's the weather up there btw?Nice, actually. About 20-25C and either sunny or a bit of rain.

[siva_chair]

The fact that you guys choose Barack shows that things are turning around for the USA.:)

Turning around for more troubles, perhaps.

Leaving Iraq would be just a bit of a big policy change.

And probably be very bad for the people of Iraq, actually.

I'm reminded of what happened in Afghanistan after they kicked the Soviets out of their country and we failed to follow up with rebuilding...

[Iskandar]

Turning around for more troubles, perhaps.A reversal of the disastrous policies of the last eight years is what's needed, not a radical restructuring of government.
And probably be very bad for the people of Iraq, actually..Better for them than this war is.

[Against Miik!]

Well I don't see Barack being all that committed to leaving Iraq actually I mean he has voted to continue its funding right along side John McCain. And his rhetoric towards Iran is pretty much identical to the Republican's.

I mean then there is this so pretty all of Washington has lost whatever shred of credibility it had: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece

[siva_chair]

A reversal of the disastrous policies of the last eight years is what's needed, not a radical restructuring of government.

Umm sorry but we have had some pretty disasterous policies reaching back much further than the last 8 years. Reversing them isn't going to solve our problems.

Better for them than this war is.

Do you believe that all the violence and killing will stop if the US leaves? When the US leaves you are still going to have the same douchebags trying to gain power and impose their will upon the people of Iraq in some ethinic or religious cleansing. At least with the US there hospitals, schools, ect are being built and there is, for the most part, some order. It isn't like Iraq is going to become some fairyland of tolerance and peace once the US leaves. In fact, it will probably be more chaotic and violent.

[Iskandar]

Obama has done work towards downsizing nuclear stockpiles and curbing the proliferation, incidentally.

I'm not saying the sun shines out of the man's ***, but really, get your heads on straight. After eight years of abuse by power-mad neo-conservatives, this unassumming liberal comes along who says he wants to change things. The way you guys talk makes it sound as if you want McCain to win.
Umm sorry but we have had some pretty disasterous policies reaching back much further than the last 8 years. Reversing them isn't going to solve our problems.What policies are you referring to?
Do you believe that all the violence and killing will stop if the US leaves?No, but the primary target of the violence would be gone.

[siva_chair]

Obama has done work towards downsizing nuclear stockpiles and curbing the proliferation, incidentally.

I'm not saying the sun shines out of the man's ***, but really, get your heads on straight. After eight years of abuse by power-mad neo-conservatives, this unassumming liberal comes along who says he wants to change things. The way you guys talk makes it sound as if you want McCain to win.

Yeah because, you know, just because we don't want Obama to win automatically means we want McCentury to win. :rolleyes:

What policies are you referring to?

The numerous and shady policies of several past presidents, both Democrat and Republican. The system needs cleaned and reassessed because the sh!t has floated to the top for far too long.

No, but the primary target of the violence would be gone.

No, it would just change.

[Iskandar]

Yeah because, you know, just because we don't want Obama to win automatically means we want McCentury to win. :rolleyes:Ron Paul is still in the race, you know.

You have a two-party system. Take what you can get.
The numerous and shady policies of several past presidents, both Democrat and Republican.Again, what policies are you referring to?

[siva_chair]

Ron Paul is still in the race, you know.

You have a two-party system. Take what you can get.

I also have freedom of thought, which means I can be displeased at all the choices. Neither are a "lesser of two evils" when all it is going to be is a continuation of the same out of hand political machine it has been for years. Only major change is what animal our leader rides on: an *** or a stupid elephant.

Again, what policies are you referring to?

Pick a presidency and I'll gladly point them out to you.

[Iskandar]

I also have freedom of thought, which means I can be displeased at all the choices. Neither are a "lesser of two evils" when all it is going to be is a continuation of the same out of hand political machine it has been for years. Only major change is what animal our leader rides on: an *** or a stupid elephant.And yet those two choices are all you have. Who did you vote for?
Pick a presidency and I'll gladly point them out to you.Reagan, the libertarian's love.

[siva_chair]

And yet those two choices are all you have. Who did you vote for?

Ron Paul of course.

Reagan, the libertarian's love.

Well let's see there was the numerous regimes he funded/supported that were brutal and oppressive.....

And he isn't the Libertarian's love, he's the conservative's poster child.

[Against Miik!]

I didn't like Reagan, but he's probably the best we've had since Kennedy. Carter wasn't horrible, but he was a pussy.

Yeah, supply side is kind of retarded though. Conservatives will claim things were so well during the Clinton years because of Reagan, when really, neither Clinton or Reagan really did anything.

[siva_chair]

I didn't like Reagan, but he's probably the best we've had since Kennedy. Carter wasn't horrible, but he was a slightly confuzzled sea lion.

Yeah, supply side is kind of retarded though. Conservatives will claim things were so well during the Clinton years because of Reagan, when really, neither Clinton or Reagan really did anything.

Carter just proved that a good person doesn't always make the most effective president.

I think Reagan was probably a pretty good puppet.

[Iskandar]

Ron Paul of course.He never had a chance.
Well let's see there was the numerous regimes he funded/supported that were brutal and oppressive.....He meddled in the politics of foreign nations, too. It's something that's doomed to fail.
And he isn't the Libertarian's love, he's the conservative's poster child.Libertarians, despite all their claims to the contrary, are conservatives.

[Against Miik!]

Social liberals when you think about it though, so not really this perverted form of conservatism we see today.

[Iskandar]

Social liberals when you think about it though, so not really this perverted form of conservatism we see today.They are in some aspects, which makes them better than neo-conservatives, but they're not as liberal as they make themselves out to be. Plenty of libertarians voice their support for authoritarian policies like military intervention and capital punishment.

[siva_chair]

He never had a chance.

One of the reasons the system needs reworked. He is certainly popular enough to get a very sizeable amount of votes, but the two party bullshit prevents that from even happening.

And people wonder why so many are disenfranchised by the system.


He meddled in the politics of foreign nations, too. It's something that's doomed to fail.

Yeah that was kinda the point I was getting at...

Libertarians, despite all their claims to the contrary, are conservatives.

Well only if you have a very narrow definition of conservative.

[Against Miik!]

They do, but I don't think that necessarily goes along with the party's core beliefs, so its unfair to judge all on that. Thats like citing Joe Lieberman when bashing democrats.

As far as I am concerned, when it comes to social issues, libertarians combine the best of both worlds. You all can get your abortions, just let us keep our guns!

[siva_chair]

They are in some aspects, which makes them better than neo-conservatives, but they're not as liberal as they make themselves out to be. Plenty of libertarians voice their support for authoritarian policies like military intervention and capital punishment.

Is military intervention really authoritarian if it serves the cause of liberty?

[Iskandar]

One of the reasons the system needs reworked. He is certainly popular enough to get a very sizeable amount of votes, but the two party bullpoop prevents that from even happening.
He ran as a Republican...

Yeah that was kinda the point I was getting at...If you oppose interventionalism, why do you support the war in Iraq?
Well only if you have a very narrow definition of conservative.If I had a narrower definition of conservative, I would say only 18th-century Whigs were. But I don't, and I consider libertarianism to be a very much right-wing ideology.
Is military intervention really authoritarian if it serves the cause of liberty?Yes ... ?

Not that Iraq is any freer than it was before.

[siva_chair]

He ran as a Republican...

Uhh yeah because unfortunately that was probably the best route for him to go about to win.

If you oppose interventionalism, why do you support the war in Iraq?

Great Odin's eyepatch just because I didn't support the way Reagan went about intervening doesn't mean I don't support any intervention. Not everything is so damn black and white. Reagan backed despots and tyrants, while we ousted one in Iraq. Quite a bit of difference there buddy.

If I had a narrower definition of conservative, I would say only 18th-century Whigs were. But I don't, and I consider libertarianism to be a very much right-wing ideology.

Yet it isn't even close to authoritarian....

Yes ... ?

So intervention in WWII was authoritarian, even though we disposed of a tyrant and established democracy...

Seriously, military intervention doesn't neccessarily equate authoritarianism. Military intervention can just as easily serve the cause of liberty and democracy, which are certainly not authoritarian in nature.

Not that Iraq is any freer than it was before.

Except they held elections....

[Jude]

Great, now not only can Iraqis choose between more than just one leader who's either incompetent, powerless or corrupt, but they get tons of bonus violence and a wrecked infrastructure too!

[Iskandar]

Uhh yeah because unfortunately that was probably the best route for him to go about to win.And he failed utterly! Well done.
Yet it isn't even close to authoritarian....Authoritarianism isn't exclusively right-wing. But a lot of the time right-wingers are authoritarian. Dig?
Except they held elections....And now Iraq is a thriving liberal democracy? Hardly. Freedom House stills rates Iraq as an unfree country. It's hard to be free in the middle of a war zone.
Great, now not only can Iraqis choose between more than just one leader who's either incompetent, powerless or corrupt, but they get tons of bonus violence and a wrecked infrastructure too!Don't worry, Iraq's government is far too ineffective to do any real harm.

[Jude]

Btw Obama is probably one of the first democratic candidates in a while who will actually have a chance because he appeals to people's gut as well as their brains

What I mean is that while the Democrats have been putting forward logical arguments for sensible policies, which makes total sense to them because people who think that way about politics often tend to be liberal, the Republicans have focused more on manipulating people's knee-jerk reactions i.e. "is this candidate likeable" and "does this candidate endorse the same 'values' that I believe in and oppose the same 'moral wrongs' that I do" and so forth

If people like Obama due to a knee jerk reaction then that's good. You have to fight fire with fire

[Iskandar]

People like Obama because they're sick of boneheaded conservatives holding back progress and taking the country down a path of lunacy.

[Jude]

People like Obama because they're sick of boneheaded conservatives holding back progress and taking the country down a path of lunacy.

Well yeah, and others like him because he's young, cool, exciting and black. Which like I said, is probably a more effective way to get votes than having logical and reasonable arguments and policies

[Iskandar]

Ron Paul was young, cool, exciting and black!

[Jude]

Yeah but he wasnt a democrat or republican which is kind of a necess

Wait what

[Hababi]

People like Obama because they're sick of boneheaded conservatives holding back progress and taking the country down a path of lunacy.

Yeah so now let's turn to a boneheaded liberal human gaffe machine who can deliver a big speech but is terrible in Q&A sessions and basically any time he has to think on his feet and not read something he has prepared.

Yes, let's turn to a guy who thought that his American uncle liberated Auschwitz (doh!), thinks that Afghanis speak Arabic, said that many fallen heroes were watching him in the audience, is lying about having signed a pledge to ban handguns, etc.

Now, I'll give you that the fallen heroes line and the 57 states line were basic gaffes, the same as McCain has made (and unfairly been covered obsessively). But the rest of these demonstrate that Obama is far less intelligent than people think.

And that's not getting into attending an unrepentent terrorist's house for a fundraiser (Ayers), being a member of a racist church, keeping bigoted friends etc.
PS only posting here because GD is down

[Iskandar]

Yeah so now let's turn to a boneheaded liberal human gaffe machineI'm sorry, but I'm ignoring your post because I know you hate Obama.

[Hababi]

I'm sorry, but I'm ignoring your post because I know you hate Obama.

I do hate the idea that such a blatant opportunist, such an arrogant and phony person, could get this far.

But he's going to lose, because the American people know better and will decide they don't want BO.

The gaffe machine point isn't just mine; it's been made on ABC news, the wall street journal, etc.

[beso negro]

Tax cuts for the top quintile!

as it should be

Global warming isn't real!

it's overblown that's for sure.

[dei]

Global warming is real and I will kill you if you do not believe it.

[Iskandar]

I do hate the idea that such a blatant opportunist, such an arrogant and phony person, could get this far.

But he's going to lose, because the American people know better and will decide they don't want BO.

The gaffe machine point isn't just mine; it's been made on ABC news, the wall street journal, etc.Once again, you're only saying that because you don't like him.

Scared, perhaps, that a liberal might become President this year?
as it should be
Um, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_taxation

Check this out. Most countries have it.

[Hababi]

Once again, you're only saying that because you don't like him.

That's a great way of dodging the substance of what I'm saying?

Scared, perhaps, that a liberal might become President this year?
Um, no?

Yeah, because if he gets in, we're screwed. He'll surrender Iraq to terrorists, causing a genocide and regional destabilization, while raising taxes on the middle class here and having his proxies accuse anyone who dares criticize him of being racist.

Obama got his start by getting everyone running against him thrown off the ballot due to a technicality (some printed their names on petitions instead of handwriting them). He's an old school liberal Chicago pol with a racist wife and a clan of racist spiritual mentors. His election would be a disgrace to America.

[Iskandar]

Yeah, because if he gets in, we're screwed. He'll surrender Iraq to terrorists, causing a genocide and regional destabilization, while raising taxes on the middle class here and having his proxies accuse anyone who dares criticize him of being racist.

Obama got his start by getting everyone running against him thrown off the ballot due to a technicality (some printed their names on petitions instead of handwriting them). He's an old school liberal Chicago pol with a racist wife and a clan of racist spiritual mentors. His election would be a disgrace to America.....?

[Hababi]

....?

So you're just going to ignore his faults?

[Iskandar]

I have no idea where you're getting this stuff.

[Hababi]

I have no idea where you're getting this stuff.

You should really pay more attention to these things.

" As a community organizer, he had helped register thousands of voters. But when it came time to run for office, he employed Chicago rules to invalidate the voting petition signatures of three of his challengers.

The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

[Hababi]

"A 2004 Chicago Sun-Times interview with Mr. Obama mentioned three men as his religious guides. One was Rev. Wright. Another was Father Michael Pfleger, the Louis Farrakhan ally whose recent remarks caused Mr. Obama to resign from Trinity, but for whose Chicago church Mr. Obama channeled at least $225,000 in grants as a state senator. Until recently, the priest was connected to the campaign, which flew him to Iowa to host an interfaith forum. Father Pfleger's testimony for the candidate has since been scrubbed from Mr. Obama's campaign Web site. A third mentor was Illinois state Senator James Meeks, another Chicago pastor who has generated controversy for mixing pulpit and politics."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121254834844844045.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Meeks is the guy that said "the hollywood jew brought us brokeback mountain" and called people he doesn't like "house ******s"

[Iskandar]

Oh, not this **** again.

[Hababi]

It's not my fault if I hadn't heard that. It's not a major story and I don't watch or read CNN.

Well you should, as then you'd be better informed. Don't miss the second one, either. And it will become a major story, or at least it should. Obama is a cutthroat partisan liberal Democrat who has been cavorting with radical leftists, terrorists, and racists for the last 20 years.

[Iskandar]

Well you should, as then you'd be better informed. Don't miss the second one, either. And it will become a major story, or at least it should. Obama is a cutthroat partisan liberal Democrat who has been cavorting with radical leftists, terrorists, and racists for the last 20 years.I don't like CNN, though.

Barack Obama: Radical leftist, terrorist and racist.

[Hababi]

I don't like CNN, though.

[QUOTE]
Barack Obama: Radical leftist, terrorist and racist.

I'm not saying that Obama's a terrorist or racist, but he has longstanding relationships with unrepentent terrorists (Ayers) and racists (Meeks, Wright, etc.) and his wife is a racist.

And doesn't it bother you that Obama got his start with an unethical strongarm move? The guy is a fraud.

[Iskandar]

His wife is a racist. Okay...?

[Hababi]

His wife is a racist. Okay...?

She says that America is a "mean" nation, she said that she wasn't proud of her country till it voted for her husband, and there's a rumored tape in which she attacks "the white man" for all sorts of things. At the very least she attended a conference with Louis Farakhan's wife, and preached Jeremiah Wright's racist view of America.

[Iskandar]

She says that America is a "mean" nation,It is.
she said that she wasn't proud of her country till it voted for her husband, I wouldn't be proud of America right now either.
and there's a rumored tape in which she attacks "the white man" for all sorts of things. Ooh, rumors!
At the very least she attended a conference with Louis Farakhan's wife, and preached Jeremiah Wright's racist view of America.Did she scream, "GOD DAMN AMERICA?!"

[Hababi]

It is.

No.


I wouldn't be proud of America right now either.

Sorry but I don't want a first lady who hates the country when it's not embracing and enriching her phony husband. Michelle Obama is a first class idiot.

Did she scream, "GOD DAMN AMERICA?!"

She might as well have.

[Iskandar]

No.America is the bully in the sandbox. And you're fine with that, so you can't understand why it pisses the rest of us off.

[dei]

More like you're a first class idiot.

[DBoons Ghost]

Hey Steve! I hate my country right now. I am ashamed of it.

I think people like you are all that is wrong with this country.

So if Obama pisses you off that much, then he is my man. Do you comprehend that? He is no worse or better then any other piece of garbage politician. If he does give in to the terrorists this country helped create, I can't see that being any worse then how it is right now.

[Hababi]

America is the bully in the sandbox. And you're fine with that, so you can't understand why it pisses the rest of us off.

Yeah mean mean mean us bullying those poor dictators like Ahmedenijad and Kim Jong Il. We should be coddling Mugabe and Mahmoud, like Jimmy Carter would do.

btw she was talking domestically. She believes that America is run by the KKK and that the government invented AIDS to kill black people.

[DBoons Ghost]

Now you're just making crap up.

You are so awful it's pathetic. Why not stop posting? Take a break!

[dei]

Yeah mean mean mean us bullying those poor dictators like Ahmedenijad and Kim Jong Il. We should be coddling Mugabe and Mahmoud, like Jimmy Carter would do.

btw she was talking domestically. She believes that America is run by the KKK and that the government invented AIDS to kill black people.

Proof?

[Hababi]

He is no worse or better then any other piece of garbage politician.

Well at least that's progress :p

But the last time I checked, America worked out pretty well for you ;)

John McCain sacrificed 5 years of his life for his country and his fellow soldiers. BO took an average paying job for a few years while launching his political career, and wants people to worship him for it. What a schmuck.

[Hababi]

Proof?

Those are Jeremiah Wright's words, his theology, and she has openly spread his theology and political philosophy at campaign stops. See her encouraging black people to not aspire to be middle class.

[dei]

Proof?

[Iskandar]

Now you're just making crap up.

You are so awful it's pathetic. Why not stop posting? Take a break!I have never felt a deeper affinity with DBoon.

[Hababi]

Proof?

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTViZjhhNGI1Y2QxYjE0ZDc0YmMwMjJiNmUyZjQ3MmU=

[dei]

Something not National Review.

[DBoons Ghost]

Well at least that's progress :p

But the last time I checked, America worked out pretty well for you ;)

John McCain sacrificed 5 years of his life for his country and his fellow soldiers. BO took an average paying job for a few years while launching his political career, and wants people to worship him for it. What a schmuck.

Yeah I'm fine. It's the millions of people that aren't fine that concern me.

My daughter will be coming up and share the country with future generations who have not in the least been as privileged and as lucky as myself and as she will be as a result.

So yeah. while I might come off a selfish prick, I'm really not. I want what I accomplished for everyone. That seems to be dwindling with every passing day under the current guidance.

It's time for drastic and major change to the point of revolution.

[Iskandar]

Haha, National Review to the rescue!

[Hababi]

Something not National Review.
Umm proof is proof.
Yeah I'm fine. It's the millions of people that aren't fine that concern me.

Like who? The real estate "crisis" is totally overblown. Most of the people in trouble are speculators. Education opportunities remain virtually unparalleled in the world. As someone who works in the stock market industry (albeit not as a broker), you should understand better than anyone the cyclical nature of the economy. The doomsdayists are being ridiculous.

[dei]

National Review is pretty biased, I hear.

[DBoons Ghost]

You think that's all this is about?

C'mon.

[Hababi]

National Review is pretty biased, I hear.
It's quoting her direct words.

[Iskandar]

National Review is undoubtedly great for neoconservative editorials. For information about Democratic candidates in an election year? Uhh.

[Hababi]

National Review is undoubtedly great for neoconservative editorials. For information about Democratic candidates in an election year? Uhh.

...Exact quotations of Michelle Obama's (read: Jeremiah Wright's) rhetoric.

[Iskandar]

“Don’t go into corporate America. You know, become teachers. Work for the community. Be social workers. Be a nurse. Those are the careers that we need, and we’re encouraging our young people to do that."Horror of horrors! She's encouraging young black people to become - teachers! Nurses! Social workers!

[Hababi]

Horror of horrors! She's encouraging young black people to become - teachers! Nurses! Social workers!

Yeah that's a great message for a privelaged person who became a corporate attorney to give to people. "Do as I tell you, not as I did, so I can be your overlord and continue to feed your anger against people not like you."

[Iskandar]

You've finally cracked and gone mad.

[Orange Piggy]

An education at Havard doesn't come cheap. Regardless, I'm not sure how relevant attacking Michelle Obama is, it says little of Barack.

The site doesn't really say where they got that quote either. National review (or should I say Bryon York, this is a blog) isn't directly quoting Mrs Obama, they're quoting someone else who is and not giving the reference.

Really, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt because that CNN article was nice, but not being critical of your own sources and the way you seem to be frothing at the mouth doesn't lend to me believing you're being impartial.

[Edit: Weee, 50 posts after 2 and a half years of membership. The true mark of lurkiness]

[Otherside]

Horror of horrors! She's encouraging young black people to become - teachers! Nurses! Social workers!

oh my god and did you see how much money she was making?! so ridiculous for her to be saying things like that to people who unlike john mccain didn't marry someone who owns a 300 million dollar company!

[Hababi]

An education at Havard doesn't come cheap.

No but her parents weren't poor. Her dad was a local political bigshot. She babysat Jesse Jackson Jr. She, like Jeremiah Wright and Obama, comes from privilege.

[Iskandar]

oh my god and did you see how much money she was making?! so ridiculous for her to be saying things like that to people who unlike john mccain didn't marry someone who owns a 300 million dollar company!Lol. She actually makes a fair bit more than Obama.

She babysat Jesse Jackson Jr.Really? COOL:eek:

[Orange Piggy]

No but her parents weren't poor. Her dad was a local political bigshot. She babysat Jesse Jackson Jr. She, like Jeremiah Wright and Obama, comes from privilege.

Hardly. Her father was a city pump operator who also was a precinct captain for the democrats (which does not count as being a political bigshot). Her mother was a secretary for a catalog company.

As far as babysitting goes, good on her for working. It doesn't pay for your education though.

Really though, this all bears little relevance to Barack's standing.

[Hababi]

Hardly. Her father was a city pump operator who also was a precinct captain for the democrats (which does not count as being a political bigshot). Her mother was a secretary for a catalog company.

As far as babysitting goes, good on her for working. It doesn't pay for your education though.

Really though, this all bears little relevance to Barack's standing.

He rose above only being a pump operator. He was a union big shot and a precinct captain is a pretty big deal in local politics. They were established and lived comfortably.

[beso negro]

Um, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_taxation

Check this out. Most countries have it.

wow. i've never heard of that.

um yea that would suck. this is america. we wouldn't be cutting edge if we implemented that **** and as an engineer that scares the **** out of me.

[Iskandar]

wow. i've never heard of that.

um yea that would suck. this is america. we wouldn't be cutting edge if we implemented that **** and as an engineer that scares the **** out of me.You've never heard of progressive taxation.

Do you know anything at all about economics?

We tax the rich more because they have more money! Then we tax the poor less because they're poor. Revenues increase and so does income equality. It's genius!

[Jude]

The fact that zero hates Obama makes me like him way more needless to say

Also I think Reverend Wright is awesome and aside from the thing about AIDS being a conspiracy, (which I'll forgive him because everybody says stupid **** sometimes) basically everything he said was right on.

Including God Damn America. If damnation as most of America believes it, actually exists, most of them are going to experience it. And the politicans especially.

And how can anybody who isn't filthy rich or desperate to be filthy rich, be against progressive taxation

[Iskandar]

America hates taxes because they don't go towards anything useful. Roads, hospitals, schools and the military grow on trees.

[EinzingerIsGod]

um yea that would suck. this is america. we wouldn't be cutting edge if we implemented that **** and as an engineer that scares the **** out of me.

If we had a progressive taxation system we could be more "cutting edge". There would be more money for health care and public education. We could rebuild our crumbling roads. Of course, the best way to get more revenue fast would be to stop wasting so much money on our military.

[dei]

if We Had A Progressive Taxation System We Could Be More "cutting Edge". There Would Be More Money For Health Care And Public Education. We Could Rebuild Our Crumbling Roads. Of Course, The Best Way To Get More Revenue Fast Would Be To Stop Wasting So Much Money On Our Military.

124

[Jude]

If we had a progressive taxation system we could be more "cutting edge". There would be more money for health care and public education. We could rebuild our crumbling roads. Of course, the best way to get more revenue fast would be to stop wasting so much money on our military.

NOOOO because if we stop spending more on our military than like everybody else combined FREEDOM WILL CRUMBLE

[dei]

Do you know why the soldiers are out fighting in Iraq? To protect our freedom!

[Jude]

Do you know why we have enough nukes to destroy the entire world hundreds of times? Because if we didn't, WE WOULDN'T HAVE FREEDOM

[Hababi]

Also I think Reverend Wright is awesome and aside from the thing about AIDS being a conspiracy, (which I'll forgive him because everybody says stupid **** sometimes) basically everything he said was right on.

Including God Damn America. If damnation as most of America believes it, actually exists, most of them are going to experience it. And the politicans especially.


See this is why no one should take you seriously.

[Jude]

Oh the irony

These past couple pages of digging up dirt on Obama make me laugh a lot because it happens every ****in election

It's common knowledge that all politicians are manipulative, corrupt greedy douchebags, but people act like they don't know this, and then try to find bad things the candidate they don't like has done, to try and make it look like that candidate is somehow worse
all the while ignoring that both candidates are equally ****ing evil but trying to pretend that theirs isn't

[DBoons Ghost]

I agree with Jude in regards to that Reverend Wright debacle. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Aside from the AIDS thing, what he said was pretty spot on.

McCain is on TV now saying we live in a dangerous world. Is it dangerous because of our policy? Why not address the danger we've created and perpetuate as opposed to convincing the sheep of the fact that the world is a dangerous place for us because of the mess we've made?

[Hababi]

I agree with Jude in regards to that Reverend Wright debacle. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Aside from the AIDS thing, what he said was pretty spot on.


If you hate America, if America is so bad, leave.

[DBoons Ghost]

If you hate America, if America is so bad, leave.

Holy redneck retard Batman!

I can't believe you threw that awful cliche at me.

I can't leave because the world hates us so much that we are stuck here.

Besides, no matter where I go America's awful foreign policy is sure to follow and eventually destroy everything it touches.

[Hababi]

Holy redneck retard Batman!

I can't believe you threw that awful cliche at me.

I can't leave because the world hates us so much that we are stuck here.


No you're not. You have plenty of money, you could easily leave. To Canada, or Sweden, or Denmark, or wherever else you like. If you agree with Rev Wright and you stay in the country to prosper, then you are simply a hypocrite.

[DBoons Ghost]

Well, I've said on many occasions Steve, that I am in fact, a hypocrite. A pretty big one.

However, my life is no longer my own. I have a child, and her best chance is an education in America with a future in which she can prosper and benefit.

I just want a better country for her then the one I grew up in. Is that so wrong?

[Hababi]

However, my life is no longer my own. I have a child, and her best chance is an education in America with a future in which she can prosper and benefit.

Wait why is her best chance in USKKKA, where racism rules things and god should damn it? That sounds like irresponsible parenting. You mean to tell me that Canada doesn't have good schools? Sweden?


I just want a better country for her then the one I grew up in. Is that so wrong?
:confused: Everyone wants a better country than the one they grow up in. Well, most everyone. I certainly do. John McCain does. Jeremiah Wright is more interested in making a fortune off idiots, selling hate speech and not making things better.

[DBoons Ghost]

Steve, for the hundred thousandth time, Revend Jeremiah Wright is not running for public office.

You annoy me to the point that this isn't fun. It's just idoicy. I can argue it. It's not worth argueing.

[Jude]

If you hate America, if America is so bad, leave.

hahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahaaha

Wait why is her best chance in USKKKA, where racism rules things and god should damn it?
Because she's white for one thing


That sounds like irresponsible parenting. You mean to tell me that Canada doesn't have good schools? Sweden?
Tbh if Republicans get the white house a couple more times I probably will go to one of those places but since all my family and friends are here I see no reason to move just over politics
There is more to living in a place than politics btw

Everyone wants a better country than the one they grow up in. Well, most everyone. I certainly do. John McCain does.
Yeah but you two have a real twisted idea of what a better country is. Well maybe not, but at least a godawful way of going about getting it

btw if proclaiming Jesus with your words and then denying him with your actions and lifestyle is grounds for damnation then most of America is going to hell, not that I'm convinced there's even a Biblical basis for the popular notion of "hell"

[Iskandar]

Steve wants to milk the Wright thing for all that it's worth even though it ceased to be an issue over a month ago. He just lacks new ammunition because Obama is on a roll now.

[Jude]

It's that same syndrome where you try to make your candidate look better by digging up all the **** on the other candidate or their associates

If everybody knew the truth about all the candidates nobody would be dumb enough to vote

[Iskandar]

I would move to Canada if the Republicans aren't out by next year because you can still drive over to visit your family. Think about it.

[guitrguy]

Steve wants to milk the Wright thing for all that it's worth even though it ceased to be an issue over a month ago. He just lacks new ammunition because Obama is on a roll now.

He knows exactly what he's doing.

[Iskandar]

He knows exactly what he's doing.Who does? Obama?

[guitrguy]

I would move to Canada if the Republicans aren't out by next year because you can still drive over to visit your family. Think about it.

My dad got stationed in Ohio, that could be feasible.

Who does? Obama?

Steve

[Hababi]

Steve wants to milk the Wright thing for all that it's worth even though it ceased to be an issue over a month ago. He just lacks new ammunition because Obama is on a roll now.

Jeremiah Wright will never cease to be an issue because Barack Obama sat in his church for 20 years, listening to hateful, racist sermons, bringing his kids there, and taking the man's twisted advice.

[Hababi]

Oh and now BO is showing what a dishonest opportunist he is by going back on his promise to take public funding, and relying on buying the election through his rich personality cult.

[Mister_Che]

Jeremiah Wright will never cease to be an issue because Barack Obama sat in his church for 20 years, listening to hateful, racist sermons, bringing his kids there, and taking the man's twisted advice.

You make it sound like racist speech was part of every single Sunday sermon.

[guitrguy]

Oh and now BO is showing what a dishonest opportunist he is by going back on his promise to take public funding, and relying on buying the election through his rich personality cult.

:facepalm:

[Against Miik!]

Steve I don't think its fair that we hold Barack Obama to a higher standard I mean he will probably end up doing what every other politician has ever done. The only difference is he promised not to do it.

I just feel bad for all the poor suckers who buy into it.

[guitrguy]

He promised to not take money from special interest groups. Which as far as I know he hasn't. Taking donations from a rich person is not going back on the promise you both misrepresent.

[Hababi]

Steve I don't think its fair that we hold Barack Obama to a higher standard I mean he will probably end up doing what every other politician has ever done. The only difference is he promised not to do it.

I just feel bad for all the poor suckers who buy into it.

But that's exactly it--I'm holding him to this standard because he's presenting himself as being of this standard when he's so clearly not. I'm not holding Hillary to it because she's never claimed to be. She didn't make promises about public financing or transforming politics. She is who she is and she was fairly up front about that.

[Against Miik!]

So he's lying :amaze:

I said this earlier I think. Barack is the best option at this point, between him and McCain, and even Hillary for shits and grins. I don't think any of them were the best of the original field They just got hot at the right times.

But again, we are stuck with our choices. Let people think they are voting for change. At least we will be happier, even if the same **** goes on.

[guitrguy]

But that's exactly it--I'm holding him to this standard because he's presenting himself as being of this standard when he's so clearly not. I'm not holding Hillary to it because she's never claimed to be. She didn't make promises about public financing or transforming politics. She is who she is and she was fairly up front about that.

You actually bombarded her like crazy when she was in the lead, and you had a softer stance on Obama. Then you switched like a light when the lead changed.

[guitrguy]

So he's lying :amaze:

what?

[Hababi]

So he's lying :amaze:

I said this earlier I think. Barack is the best option at this point, between him and McCain, and even Hillary for shits and grins. I don't think any of them were the best of the original field They just got hot at the right times.

But again, we are stuck with our choices. Let people think they are voting for change. At least we will be happier, even if the same **** goes on.

Obama's health care plan won't work. He has no record of bipartisanship. He's extremely dishonest. He's a walking gaffe machine. His foreign policy is full of contradictions and weakness. He will pull troops out regardless of conditions on the ground or the advice of generals. He is a disaster. He will destroy America.

[Against Miik!]

He won't cut military spending. He won't get us off of foreign oil. No president would. We will still support Israel (sry steve). We won't get any of those jobs back we lost overseas. These are the problems out there, and he CANNOT fix them.

what?

He's lying, about this change that he is going to bring. I mean, maybe a few things will change, but nothing major. People think this is going to be some sort of glorious revolution. It won't be anything.

Thats why I have a problem with Obama. Whether intentionally or not, he is taking advantage of regular peoples complacency, ignorance, and fear of actual change, and making them think that by voting for him, this country is going to be a better place.

Believe, now that he has a chance of winning, I hope hope hope that he will do a great job. I am not one of those people who wants a president to fail just because I don't like them. I we "win" this war in Iraq, I will be a happy camper. I just don't see much of anything going differently, to be realistic.

[Hababi]

You actually bombarded her like crazy when she was in the lead, and you had a softer stance on Obama. Then you switched like a light when the lead changed.

Because when BO first came around, before the truth was revealed about him, he looked promising. The trouble is that the BO of a year ago is not the BO of today, and the BO rhetoric of a year ago doesn't match the BO life.

[guitrguy]

He's lying, about this change that he is going to bring. I mean, maybe a few things will change, but nothing major. People think this is going to be some sort of glorious revolution. It won't be anything.

Thats why I have a problem with Obama. Whether intentionally or not, he is taking advantage of regular peoples complacency, ignorance, and fear of actual change, and making them think that by voting for him, this country is going to be a better place.

Believe, now that he has a chance of winning, I hope hope hope that he will do a great job. I am not one of those people who wants a president to fail just because I don't like them. I we "win" this war in Iraq, I will be a happy camper. I just don't see much of anything going differently, to be realistic.

Don't get me wrong I don't think there is going to be much change either. I, however, want to work towards a more liberal society. Voting for Obama is just a stepping stone to the real change to be had.

[Jude]

I would move to Canada if the Republicans aren't out by next year because you can still drive over to visit your family. Think about it.

Yeah but by "The republicans get elected a few more times" I also include the assumed fact that they will turn the country into a complete pile of ****, and unless that happens I'm not just going to go off to Canada where I know nobody and leave all my friends back here


@zero "BO" ahahahahahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahhahah you crack me up

[Against Miik!]

If by liberal you mean a more open and free society, then yes.

I think we have different opinions on how to get there though.

[Hababi]

Don't get me wrong I don't think there is going to be much change either. I, however, want to work towards a more liberal society. Voting for Obama is just a stepping stone to the real change to be had.

An embrace of weakness, a rejection of free trade, an angering of key allies, Obama 08.

[guitrguy]

If by liberal you mean a more open and free society, then yes.

I think we have different opinions on how to get there though.

That and less capitalism, I'm not out and out socialist. The I do like the free market for most things, I also would like to see free education at levels and healthcare.

[guitrguy]

An embrace of weakness, a rejection of free trade, an angering of key allies, Obama 08.

thanks Rush

lol We've already angered most of our allies with our bullshit

[Against Miik!]

NAFTA kinda sucks tbh.

Capitalism is great but just like all other economies it needs to be as pure as possible, only regulating in the right places. We kind of mucked it up.

[guitrguy]

NAFTA kinda sucks tbh.

Capitalism is great but just like all other economies it needs to be as pure as possible, only regulating in the right places. We kind of mucked it up.
Pure as in the guys companies calling the shots need to be pure?

[Hababi]

thanks Rush

lol We've already angered most of our allies with our bullshit

Actually it's Obama who has angered Canada, Colombia, and Pakistan. It's Obama who is rejecting free trade. It's Obama who is spreading a message of defeat and dishonor.

[Against Miik!]

Pure as in the guys companies calling the shots need to be pure?

Pure as in capitalism would work better in an actual democracy as opposed to this plutocracy we have right now, to begin with

[Jude]

Angering of key allies

Not like Bush at all

And he damn well should reject free trade all it does is **** over poor people in shithole countries while rich Americans get fat

[guitrguy]

Actually it's Obama who has angered Canada, Colombia, and Pakistan. It's Obama who is rejecting free trade. It's Obama who is spreading a message of defeat and dishonor.

I'm sure they're furious, but seriously, quit acting like rush and attempt to have some objectivity.

[EinzingerIsGod]

"Free trade" and "capitalism" are pleasantries for "let's get us rich guys even richer".

[Hababi]

Angering of key allies

Not like Bush at all

So in other words he's a democrat version of Bush. Angering allies, speaking poorly (except the occasional empty big speech)/


And he damn well should reject free trade all it does is **** over poor people in shithole countries while rich Americans get fat

You're an idiot. Learn economics.

[guitrguy]

Pure as in capitalism would work better in an actual democracy as opposed to this plutocracy we have right now, to begin with

eh, the economy would be divorced from the gov't to the point it wouldn't matter the form of gov't.

[Hababi]

Folks, free trade works. The standard of living in countries with improved trade has rise. This is objective data. Claiming otherwise shows a general lack of knowledge about economics.

[Against Miik!]

Yes, it would be, except now, its not in the way that capitalism should be.

Thats why it doesn't work. Too much corruption. When you have like 20 people in the entire country that essentially control everything, this just isn't gonna work.

[guitrguy]

Folks, free trade works. The standard of living in countries with improved trade has rise. This is objective data. Claiming otherwise shows a general lack of knowledge about economics.

Sweat shops remarkably improve the lives of so many!
Yes, it would be, except now, its not in the way that capitalism should be.

Thats why it doesn't work. Too much corruption. When you have like 20 people in the entire country that essentially control everything, this just isn't gonna work.
My argument is that if left unfettered a few in economy would consolidate there own power at the expense of others.

[Iskandar]

NAFTA kinda sucks tbh.

Capitalism is great but just like all other economies it needs to be as pure as possible, only regulating in the right places. We kind of mucked it up.Mixed economies work best because you get the best of both worlds. No "pure" economic system exists.

What really keeps the American capitalist system from working is that big business tends to accumulate way too much power, and therefore political influence. It's a dangerous mix.
Actually it's Obama who has angered CanadaHe has? I haven't heard anything about that. And if he angered anyone it was Harper and who gives a crap what he thinks? He's on the way out. Election year.

[Hababi]

Sweat shops remarkably improve the lives of so many!

Working making shoes still provides a boost in standard of living to trying to get by on subsistence agriculture.

[1338 h4x0r]

As a rule of thumb, whenever the only way you can make something look good is by comparing it with something that sucks, it probably sucks.

[Iscariot]

he will destroy america

rofl

[siva_chair]

Great, now not only can Iraqis choose between more than just one leader who's either incompetent, powerless or corrupt, but they get tons of bonus violence and a wrecked infrastructure too!

Democracy is good mmkay.

And he failed utterly! Well done.

You act as though that is my fault or something. What the hell is your point with this anyway?

Authoritarianism isn't exclusively right-wing. But a lot of the time right-wingers are authoritarian. Dig?

I was mainly referring to your claim of libertarians supporting authoritarian policies. Dig?

And now Iraq is a thriving liberal democracy?

Yeah lets go ahead and attribute things to me that I didn't say and respond to them accordingly....

Hardly. Freedom House stills rates Iraq as an unfree country. It's hard to be free in the middle of a war zone.

You can't be that silly. Never did I say it was a free country, but even an idiot could see that holding elections is much more in the vein of liberty than not.

Don't worry, Iraq's government is far too ineffective to do any real harm.

Yeah we should just let fundamental nutjobs take power...That is such a great idea and so very pro-democratic!

Btw Obama is probably one of the first democratic candidates in a while who will actually have a chance because he appeals to people's gut as well as their brains

What I mean is that while the Democrats have been putting forward logical arguments for sensible policies, which makes total sense to them because people who think that way about politics often tend to be liberal, the Republicans have focused more on manipulating people's knee-jerk reactions i.e. "is this candidate likeable" and "does this candidate endorse the same 'values' that I believe in and oppose the same 'moral wrongs' that I do" and so forth

If people like Obama due to a knee jerk reaction then that's good. You have to fight fire with fire

Well when you get done blowing the Democratic party let me know so we can discuss why both parties are incompetent and don't have the interests of the common person in mind.

Um, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_taxation

Check this out. Most countries have it.

Most countries aren't the United States. Seriously, the rest of the world isn't some enlightened economic guru that can do no wrong.

[BridgeToSolace]

Ten bucks says Hillary is gunning for a supreme court seat.

You heard it here.

Can someone explain real quick what the difference between a graduated income tax and a progressive tax is? It's late and my head hurts.

[siva_chair]

God I hope she doesn't get on the Supreme Court.

I think this election has taught us how big of a liar and how full of sh!t she is.

I mean, exit strategy for getting out of Iraq? Yeah right. She doesn't even know how to get out of her own campaign.....

[BridgeToSolace]

Hahaha, she certainly hasn't shown herself able to withdraw from a debacle.

My favorite statistics of the primary season have been the "Do you think X candidate untrustworthy?" ones.

It's always Hillary at 75% or so and Obama at 25-50%. Good times.

[Volumnius Flush]

Hahaha, she certainly hasn't shown herself able to withdraw from a debacle.

My favorite statistics of the primary season have been the "Do you think X candidate untrustworthy?" ones.

It's always Hillary at 75% or so and Obama at 25-50%. Good times.

And then there's the classic, "Would you do Hillary?" statistic. I think like 5% said yes!

[siva_chair]

Hahaha, she certainly hasn't shown herself able to withdraw from a debacle.

My favorite statistics of the primary season have been the "Do you think X candidate untrustworthy?" ones.

It's always Hillary at 75% or so and Obama at 25-50%. Good times.

Well I think they are all full of sh!t and untrustworthy. Wonder how many people think that?

And then there's the classic, "Would you do Hillary?" statistic. I think like 5% said yes!

Yeah the blind and California lesbos can vote. Amazing isn't it?

[Volumnius Flush]

Yeah the blind and California lesbos can vote. Amazing isn't it?

Speaking of the blind voting, there is an old election statistic that the tallest man usually wins. So if the blind can't see who is the tallest man (or any physical aspect), would they be more objective voters?

[Jude]

Well when you get done blowing the Democratic party let me know so we can discuss why both parties are incompetent and don't have the interests of the common person in mind.


Ironic that you get on people for putting words in your mouth

No **** both parties are both terrible but the Democrats are clearly the lesser of two evils in almost every way imaginable

[Hababi]

As a rule of thumb, whenever the only way you can make something look good is by comparing it with something that sucks, it probably sucks.

Erm try comparing it to what the alternative would be.

I suggest you look back at American history. We developed in stages. The mills and mines were (and basically still are) horrible places to work in; early factories were awful. Over time, they improved, other industries developed and improved, and eventually we got to where we are today. That's the way it works.
God I hope she doesn't get on the Supreme Court.

I think this election has taught us how big of a liar and how full of sh!t she is.

I mean, exit strategy for getting out of Iraq? Yeah right. She doesn't even know how to get out of her own campaign.....

If Obama somehow wins (reads: buys) the election, I would prefer Hillary to some others, because she's older. She'd serve maybe ten years and hopefully by then a Republican would be in office. I would hate to see him put a younger person on.

[JohnXDoe]

Many of you will be aware that Barack Obama has declared his victory as of about 3:00am GMT (or so). Anyone listening to either Clinton's or Obama's speeches will notice a curious change in the way in which they refer to each other. Whereas they were respectful beforehand, they have been downright complimentary of late, and that suggests to me that they are making every effort to unify the Democratic party. I'd say that it's a distinctly shrewd move on both their parts, as no matter who wins (though I believe Obama has all but won), the Clinton supporters will have a respect for Obamas', and vice versa.

I could go on, but I suppose I should cut to the chase:

Does anyone else believe that Clinton and Obama have reached an understanding where Clinton will be Obama's running mate?

Does anyone honestly believe that America is ready for change?

And, a mildly self-centered question, but how do you think either or outcome would affect the USA's "special relationship" with Britain?
i believe Hillary would be a wise and inspired choice. if Obama is serious about putting petty politics behind him (as the Clinton's have been at the butt end of petty politics for years) and uniting the party, he can do it and the Dems will take the White House. the republicans would have to go COMPLETELY negative to beat the ticket which would leave them exposed, and Hillary's assured reasoning and practical ideas and way of thought would complement Obama's more raw and visionary ideas.

i hear Bill Richardson might be considered. i don't see this as a strong ticket. Richardson is an opportunist and has a bad goatee lol.

John Edward's? thanks but we don't need the VP loser of four years ago on the ticket. he would be the classic "do nothing" VP.

Hiilary and Obama would compliment one another very nicely. it wouldn't be like vice versa if he were a young VP with "The Clinton's" to deal with. he is President, in control, and Hillary would be a great and effective diplomatic VP.

at this point if she is interested in the job make no mistake, its for the party and the country. and sure for her and her family. who among us is not at least a little selfish and ambitious? but its not the Presidency, i don't think you live in the White House so Bill butting in isn't an issue, and its a great position of service that Hillary would be proactive in and make the most of behind President Obama.

it would also be politically smart for the Democrats. if you have seen the news, heard the pundits, or pay attention at all, you will hear that people in the republican party are already declaring Hillary "beaten" and some have even declared this the "end of the Clinton era" of the Democratic party. as if they owned the party or something....

of course this is strategy, because if the Repubs pull out a victory in November against Obama without Hillary on the ticket, how sweet is that? first they bury Hillary and the Dems helped them do it....and now they beat Obama. the entire party....left twisting in the wind and defeated. repubs in office for 24 of the last 32 years. Hillary on the ticket assures a win and a person at Obama's side who knows Washington, how to play the game, and most of all the business of The White House, where she lived for eight years. the team would be absolutely unbeatable and good for the country.

for those who wouldn't vote for Obama with Hill on the ticket? get over yourselves. the Democratic party doesn't need your selfish, elitist, marginalized vote. gtfo

[Hababi]

I think Hillary wants Obama to NOT choose her

So she can only half heartedly campaign for him
while her followers get pissed off

and then vote for McCain :D

She has her eyes set on 12.

[beso negro]

If we had a progressive taxation system we could be more "cutting edge". There would be more money for health care and public education. We could rebuild our crumbling roads. Of course, the best way to get more revenue fast would be to stop wasting so much money on our military.

i agree. spending so much on our military sucks.

You've never heard of progressive taxation.

Do you know anything at all about economics?

We tax the rich more because they have more money! Then we tax the poor less because they're poor. Revenues increase and so does income equality. It's genius!

you need the sarcasm detector add-on installed on your firefox.

i know enough about economics to realize that the rich are needed because they invest.

[JohnXDoe]

I think Hillary wants Obama to NOT choose her

So she can only half heartedly campaign for him
while her followers get pissed off

and then vote for McCain :D

She has her eyes set on 12.
nah thats about as far fetched and fanciful as it gets. her "followers" aren't going to vote for Obama or McCain because of anything Hillary says or does. and she won't do or say anything to hurt Obama or the party. it would only hurt her in the long run and certainly wouldn't help her get elected in '12 or otherwise.

plus no guarantees here. if McCain wins he may be a two term Pres. or Obama could rise again in four years (doubtful he would need more time, of course) but most likely another candidate, man, woman, black, white, w/e...would come along and be a contender. Hillary is 61 and would be 68 or 69 when she would most likely get another shot. sort of up there in years, and if Obama chooses her and she accepts (she would) if they are successful even at 68 she could ride his coattails into office

plus some white on black Oval Office sex could take place between our respective leaders. talk about scandel! and bill and the Obama wife could join in

yeah, dems no how to swing, bby :smoke:

[Hababi]

McCain won't run for a second term, trust me.

[dei]

He shouldn't be running for a first.

[Hababi]

He shouldn't be running for a first.

Nonsense. He's the best candidate by far and one of the few people to actually be worthy of the office. BO is a child in a man's court.

[JohnXDoe]

McCain is perfectly qualified to be President. some may not agree with his politics, but millions do for some very good reasons

he's a perfectly good candidate for the republican party and it could have been that looney toon Huckabee. so careful what you wish for or against....

[Danish]

Huckabee will be back. Mark my words. He's the next Reagan. I fear him.

[guitrguy]

Anyone with a sense of rational thought should fear Huckabee.

[Hababi]

Anyone with a sense of rational thought should fear Huckabee.

He was one of the best governors in the nation. That's not according to me or the national review, it's according to Time Magazine. He did a great job.

[Danish]

Yea, cuz Time Magazine is the voice of the people...:rolleyes:

[Jude]

He was one of the best governors in the nation. That's not according to me or the national review, it's according to Time Magazine. He did a great job.

Bush was a pretty decent governor too and look at him

[ringworm]

Btw Obama is probably one of the first democratic candidates in a while who will actually have a chance because he appeals to people's gut as well as their brains

What I mean is that while the Democrats have been putting forward logical arguments for sensible policies, which makes total sense to them because people who think that way about politics often tend to be liberal, the Republicans have focused more on manipulating people's knee-jerk reactions i.e. "is this candidate likeable" and "does this candidate endorse the same 'values' that I believe in and oppose the same 'moral wrongs' that I do" and so forth

If people like Obama due to a knee jerk reaction then that's good. You have to fight fire with fire

thats a really good post



But he's going to lose, because the American people know better and will decide they don't want BO.
the american people know better?
the only reason McCain will get ANY votes is because of the complete lack of choice given to them

"Hey man, who'ya votin for?"
"I dunno man, I dont like Hilary, Obama seems shady, so I guess I'll vote McCain"

this is why the Republicans are soooooo good at winning elections
they only provide one choice

:confused: Everyone wants a better country than the one they grow up in. Well, most everyone. I certainly do. John McCain does.
McCain recently said
"Everyone wants peace, unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world." so voting for McCain is basically saying the last 8 years haven't been that bad

maybe if he was still the "maverick" the rep's said he was, he could fool a few more people like me, but he has quickly shown that to ensure the presidency, he'll switch to whatever view Bush's admin want him to

he's flip flopped about as much as Hilary

[beso negro]

"Everyone wants peace, unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world." so voting for McCain is basically saying the last 8 years haven't been that bad

he's right. there will never be "peace." doesn't mean he agrees with what's going on with the world though.

[stevensonmat2]

:P (|)

I've totally lost interest in the election; it started waaaay too soon.

[ringworm]

he's right. there will never be "peace." doesn't mean he agrees with what's going on with the world though.
it also doesnt mean that he has the capability to choose it either

his policy is the same as Bush's policy, aggression

i'll stand behind the man that is willing to talk a little first
:P (|)

I've totally lost interest in the election; it started waaaay too soon.

tell me about it

[BridgeToSolace]

it also doesnt mean that he has the capability to choose it either

his policy is the same as Bush's policy, aggression

i'll stand behind the man that is willing to talk a little first

I loved McCain before this primary. He seemed full of integrity and didn't take **** from the administration and wasn't a sheep to anybody.

But now he's trying to win an election. One thing that you cannot argue about McCain is his speaking ability. McCain just is not a public speaker. He's a fantastic politician (or was), but he can't deliver a good speech.

Part of being the president is being a leader. A good portion of being a leader is your interaction with the people, and this is often done through speeches. McCain doesn't have what it takes to do with particularly. Obama wins her 100%.

The democratic party did the strategically advantageous, if not ethically disingenuous thing by tieing McCain and bush. McCain is, or at least was not bush before this election, by ANY means. But thanks to the democrats, McCain is going to have to spend more time proving that he isn't Bush than successfully campaigning for John McCain.

Oh, and in McCain's speech, he disagreed with Obama about speaking unconditionally with Hamas and such. I think that means McCain wants conditions rather than silence. Not that it's good, but it's better.

[Jude]

I loved McCain before this primary. He seemed full of integrity and didn't take **** from the administration and wasn't a sheep to anybody.

But now he's trying to win an election.

Same with every candidate who ever looked slightly good including Obama

And the fact that Obama can be attacked for wanting to talk to other heads of state just shows that , like I always say, America is full of dumb ****ups who don't deserve democracy

"What

They're our ENEMIES how can we possibly TALK

We have to KILL THEM NOT TALK TO THEM"

Way to lead the world to freedom, democracy and rule of reason guys

[ringworm]

But thanks to the democrats, McCain is going to have to spend more time proving that he isn't Bush than successfully campaigning for John McCain.

i must be missing something, because nothing the democrats have done changed mccains platform other than what the man said, voted and supported himself

the only blaim lies with himself, but i dont think it cost him too many votes, most mccain supporters dont have the intelligence to ponder their vote or consider, (gasp) voting for someone else :)


also, one of the best speeches i've seen in awhile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ultqZ316m_s
3 parts

[Hababi]

But now he's trying to win an election. One thing that you cannot argue about McCain is his speaking ability. McCain just is not a public speaker. He's a fantastic politician (or was), but he can't deliver a good speech.


McCain's format is the townhall, when he can speak freely and openly with the people. BO is only good when he has a canned speech to deliver. When he tries to speak off the cuff, he stutters, stammers, and makes a fool out of himself. A large part of being president goes far beyond giving a canned speech.

William Jennings Bryant was among the best orators in American history. And he got his butt kicked three times. Thank goodness.

[Hababi]

Oh, and in McCain's speech, he disagreed with Obama about speaking unconditionally with Hamas and such. I think that means McCain wants conditions rather than silence. Not that it's good, but it's better.

It's the best idea. Of course we ought to be willing to talk, but not without preconditions. That's just common sense. Of course, BO doesn't have any common sense.

[DBoons Ghost]

The key to leading people is inspiring them. Beyond oration. Beyond town hall meetings where cries fall on deaf ears or circular BS is tossed out on a prayer and a hope.

This is a government for the people, by the people. Inspire the people. Give them hope again that our involvement is necesarry. If the people knwo they can make a difference, they will get involved.

Unlike the "republicans" who are supposed to be for the republic, but are really not.

I'm not saying Obama is the answer. He may very well be full of crap. Obama could be another Jimmy Carter. Alienate Congress by making them feel inept and you get nothing done. I don't think anyone wants to revamp anything. I think Obama is inspiring millions of people that us little people still count for something.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Obama Sold out.

Stalin 08.

[Jude]

I really hope Obama takes on McCain in the debates because this country badly needs real political debate not just the 90 second bullshit format they have

The key to leading people is inspiring them. Beyond oration. Beyond town hall meetings where cries fall on deaf ears or circular BS is tossed out on a prayer and a hope.
This
Telling people about your policies only convinces them if they are the kind of voters who vote based on logic and reason, which is a minority
If they are the majority who vote based on dumb party loyalty, knee jerk reactions, or for whatever candidate sounds like they endorse the same retarded and contradictory value system, it's emotion that you need to appeal to to get votes
Obama is better at this than any Democratic candidate since Bill Clinton therefore he's their best shot at the White House and since Republicans in the White House are nothing but bad news, Obama is a good thing if for no other reason than that

[Hababi]

Well McCain laid the challenge down

Now BO can either accept or cower away
Like he did from his pledge to take public financing

[BridgeToSolace]

BO is only good when he has a canned speech to deliver. When he tries to speak off the cuff, he stutters, stammers, and makes a fool out of himself. A large part of being president goes far beyond giving a canned speech.

Example, please?

At least in a few interviews I've seen with him he's been clever, quick witted, intelligent and well-spoken.

[Knifeboy]

I doubt Obama will turn down the challenge, I mean he's not a chicken, like McCain who ignored Obama's call for a debate on foreign policy

[Iscariot]

how can mccain debate what he doesn't have a clue about

[Knifeboy]

McCain would just stand there with a red face yelling "you can't talk with our enemies! They're terrorists! They're animals! WRAAARRR" and then proceed to swallow the mike

[1338 h4x0r]

When he tries to speak off the cuff, he stutters, stammers, and makes a fool out of himself.

Who? Bush?

[Iscariot]

McCain would just stand there with a red face yelling "you can't talk with our enemies! They're terrorists! They're animals! WRAAARRR" and then proceed to swallow the mike

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZxpqqxEgskE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s8iDT9RURwo

oh and here's a good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyyI6L1NpCY

[Hababi]

Example, please?

At least in a few interviews I've seen with him he's been clever, quick witted, intelligent and well-spoken.

Umm try most debates and virtually all press conferences.

The Barack Obama answering style:

I uh uh uh uh I think uh I think it's a fair question and uh uh uh uh uh I think that we can debate it, um...

[sweboy]

Steve, that's racist.

[Knifeboy]

I doubt Obama will turn down the challenge, I mean he's not a chicken, like McCain who ignored Obama's call for a debate on foreign policy



hey steve

[Hababi]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw

[Iscariot]

Umm try most debates and virtually all press conferences.

The Barack Obama answering style:

I uh uh uh uh I think uh I think it's a fair question and uh uh uh uh uh I think that we can debate it, um...

hmm that's an interesting thing to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHe8N5hL0Wo

[Hababi]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4

[guitrguy]

Umm try most debates and virtually all press conferences.

The Barack Obama answering style:

I uh uh uh uh I think uh I think it's a fair question and uh uh uh uh uh I think that we can debate it, um...

You obviously are relying on us to not have ever watched a debate press conference. Watching them would prove you wrong.

[Hababi]

You obviously are relying on us to not have ever watched a debate press conference. Watching them would prove you wrong.

Or not.

[guitrguy]

Or not.

Then why else would you be blatantly wrong?

[BridgeToSolace]

He says 'uh' a lot. It's not an "uh" of " I don't know what to answer" it's "I'm thinking about how I'm going to say this."

With things like bittergate happening, he needs to be careful how he frames answers. No one can do that off the cuff.

You're completely mischaracterizing the way he speaks. He's not dodging questions.

It's sad, really. How much you want to dislike him, I mean.

[Iskandar]

i know enough about economics to realize that the rich are needed because they invest.Progressive taxation allows the rich to be rich but not obscenely so while giving the middle and lower classes more income to improve their socioeconomic situation. Oh, and to invest.

The economic policies of the past eight years have been horrible for the lower classes.