Islamic School in NSW

[rasputin]

Australia row over Islamic school

Authorities in an Australian town are due to decide whether or not to allow an Islamic school to built there.

A Muslim organisation wants to build a school for 1,200 pupils on land it has bought in Camden, near Sydney.

But cultural, religious and racial concerns have been raised amid complaints the school would be too large for a small rural community.

Camden's authorities have received some 3,200 submissions from the public about the school and only 100 are in favour.

The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says Camden does not harbour a large Muslim population - about 150 families - so most of the pupils for the proposed school would have to be bussed in from Sydney, an hour's drive away.

That has prompted a strong response from Camden locals.

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

An internal council report has already recommended against construction, mainly citing traffic concerns.

So am I right in thinking that the White Australia Policy never really died?

[Iscariot]

australia sounds racist as all hell

"we integrate just fine with people of fair skin but we don't need any brown people here we're australia"

[rasputin]

Ignorance breeds rampantly down under, I'm afraid.

[sgrevs]

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

Freaking retards. I am fortunate to not personally know any people like this. There are heaps of Middle Eastern people living in Australia, and in Sydney already, so I don't know wtf they are complaining about.

[Aaron]

It's no more racist than how christian schools are subtley attacked in the media.
I don't condone it, but don't pretend it's something new.

[bradc1988]

They're all basing it off what happened in I think Bankstown when they put one in there. They don't want the influx of the types of people that type of school will bring, because Bankstown is a hole.

I have relatives around Camden/Campbelltown and most people out there are yuppies, the new country club will be finished before they even think of putting in this school.

It's all white out in the west anyway, doesn't get much more racist.

[Jude]

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.


It would be way easier if we just shipped these kind of people off to Australia and got rid of them

Oh wait

[bradc1988]

Hey these are westies, equivalent to the American hick, they do not represent the whole of the nation.

[badtaste]

True, I think it's just a hick town being simple minded.

Heck, there's an Islamic college around here, King Khalid (which funnily enough has changed it's name to Australian International Academy, haha), a decent performing school if I recall correctly.

[Smokey D]

It's no more racist than how christian schools are subtley attacked in the media.
I don't condone it, but don't pretend it's something new.

No it's far far worse.

[Aaron]

Really? Are you in Australia?

[mocha bear]

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have"

what the **** :/

[Mother]

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

lolol

[sgrevs]

It's no more racist than how christian schools are subtley attacked in the media.
I don't condone it, but don't pretend it's something new.

Example please? I don't recall any of this, though I will look for it in the future.

[Aaron]

Insight tonight on TV. It became a bash-the-rich-christians. Topic was on religion in schools.

[Smokey D]

Really? Are you in Australia?

Passive and subtle mockery of Christian schools vs virulent, hate filled anti-Islam racism.

I don't need to be in Australia to make that judgment.

[bradc1988]

Well idk he is in Wollongong after all, which although is a step up from Campbelltown, there's like 1 Asian family in the whole of Wollongong/Shellharbour district, and just really no multiculturalism.

No offence of course!

[rasputin]

It's no more racist than how christian schools are subtley attacked in the media.
Yeah sorry, I'd have to completely disagree with you there.
Maybe you didn't read this part of the article:
"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"
It's obviously prejudice, and implies that they are 'unwanted' in the town purely based on their religious belief. I think that's completely different from any sort of debate over christian schools. Anyway, you said it yourself:
how christian schools are subtley attacked in the media
These people from Camden aren't being subtle; they're saying 'get out we don't want you here'.

[badtaste]

Also, considering Australia is a Christian dominant country, I don't really think they're incapable of resistance against such knocks.

[dei]

If they mean Muslims and not Arabs then I don't see anything wrong with it.

[sgrevs]

You don't see anything wrong with wanting all Muslims out of the country?

[Aaron]

Well idk he is in Wollongong after all, which although is a step up from Campbelltown, there's like 1 Asian family in the whole of Wollongong/Shellharbour district, and just really no multiculturalism.

No offence of course!
Wollongong during the 60s and 70s was a migrant "hot spot" due to the steelworks and has diverse population than the average of the greater sydney area :rolleyes:. They're now the parents of the teens of today. Refer to Bureau of Statistic's for reference.

[dei]

You don't see anything wrong with wanting all Muslims out of the country?

i don't like people who are religious, so no.

[bradc1988]

Wollongong during the 60s and 70s was a migrant "hot spot" due to the steelworks and has diverse population than the average of the greater sydney area :rolleyes:. They're now the parents of the teens of today. Refer to Bureau of Statistic's for reference.

Well I've been working through all the stations from Thirroul to Coniston at around school time for the past few months and out of the hundreds of students there's nothing other than white. Also I used to visit Corrimal and Albion Park on the weekend for about 10 years and well there's nothing. Perhaps they're all hiding somewhere? Not real stats I know but I checked the Bureau of Statistics website and couldn't find religion/ethnicity by area so yeah; prove me wrong!

Also all the migrants that came over in the 60s were all the Europeans, Greeks and Italians etc, who were all met like the Islamics are being met now. So according to that quote, in about 40 years they'll be able to happily integrate with them!

Edit:
Wollongong;

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/769/wollongongui9.jpg

Sydney;

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6628/sydneyjm4.jpg

Wollongong = white.

[badtaste]

If they mean Muslims and not Arabs then I don't see anything wrong with it.

We have a freedom of religion in this country, so that makes it a bit wrong.

[Smokey D]

Wollongong attracted migrants, but they were all white. That's not really taking away from the whole 'white Australia thinking still exists everywhere but Sydney and Melbourne' thing.

[Aaron]

Smokey, you of all people should realise that people can be white and islamic.

[Smokey D]

True. But they're not in this case. They're Macedonian, Greek, Italian, Spanish, English, Irish and Scottish. I suppose they might be Muslim converts but I'll bet you a coke they're not.

[Kaleid]

There is a difference, though, in feeling uneasy because of the presence of a different culture, and feeling uneasy because of the colour of someone's skin. The former is usually understandable; the latter is just stupidity

[rasputin]

That's true, but this is simply a case of people feeling uneasy over dumb generalisations. Sure, a completely different culture may be intimidating because you don't know anything about it, but saying that there simply 'has to be' terrorists amongst the pupils who will be commuting to a town to go to school is ridiculous.

[Kaleid]

Oh yeah, I agree with you there. That line reeked of desperation; whoever said it is probably of the "I'm not racist, BUT..." ilk.

[rasputin]

Yeah, it was probably another elderly person set in their ways.
Some of the loudest cheers of the night greeted a speech from a local man in his late 70s.

"Can I just say this without being racist or political?" he said. "In 1983, in the streets of London a parade by Muslims chanted incessantly 'If we can take London, we can take the world'. Don't let them take Camden."
You pretty much hit it on the head there Kaleid.

By the way, that's from the first article on the issue at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7416145.stm

[Smokey D]

If I recall from the report I saw on BBC world, it was some 30-40 year old woman, which surprised me somewhat.

At any rate, she was the one who said "We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?", which is pretty much 'I'm not racist but...'.

[rasputin]

Oh right, yeah that is a little surprising. I love the 'we are Aussies, OK?', as if being Aussie was a distinguishable nationality/race.

[Steerpike]

So Australia has crackers, too?

Anyway, I personally dislike the idea of religious schools in general, but I find it hard to hate Goliath when David is a xenophobic moron.

[Smokey D]

Oh right, yeah that is a little surprising. I love the 'we are Aussies, OK?', as if being Aussie was a distinguishable nationality/race.

I like it because it's saying only Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish people can be Australians, which notably excludes Aborigines.

Well, and that Italians, Greeks English Scottish and Australians can't be Muslim.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

Well, it's been rejected

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-victory-for-decency/2008/05/27/1211654031529.html?sssdmh=dm16.316889

[Smokey D]

Hahaha. That women in the photo is the crazy bitch.

"The ones that come here oppress our society, they take our welfare and they don't want to accept our way of life," she said.

I call defamation.

"I have many English, Irish, Greek and Italian friends. I even have a Turkish friend who opposes this."

"Some of my best friends are Turkish..."

Notably too ignorant to realise Turkey is one of the most secular places in the world.

"They should apologise to the people of Camden for bringing the area's good name into disrepute."

Hahah, they did it themselves.

But also, Australia, what the hell is wrong with you that you haven't fed these people to crocodiles yet? What's the point of all that dangerous wildlife if you don't use it?

[Mother]

Kate McCulloch … "they take our welfare".

lol

[Der Übermensch]

I agree completely with their right to built the school, except for the fact it's ****ing stupid to do if there are only 150 families in the area who require it.
"so most of the pupils for the proposed school would have to be bussed in from Sydney, an hour's drive away."
Why not just build the school closer to Sydney or build a smaller school?

[Smokey D]

Yeah the whole idea was a bit stupid. But as a New Zealander it's much more important for me to point out why Australians are stupid.

[rasputin]

Why not just build the school closer to Sydney or build a smaller school?
I'd assume it was the best possible alternative. Not only the land, but building the actual school would be terribly expensive, and it was probably the closest and most suitable land that could be found.

[Smokey D]

No doubt there was other land available. But the point is the trust who wanted to build the school owns the land and are entitled at the least to put an application to the council. On zoning grounds, it probably was rightly decided but I can't help but think some election conscious councilors were aware of the backlash they'd face if they passed it.

[Iscariot]

Simon McCarthy, said: "I've been rolled before and we came out here for the quiet life. The fact is that Camden has been a strongly white community for a long time and the people here are scared. I'm not a racist person - that's just a statement of fact."

omg

[bradc1988]

Well the land cost them 1.5mil and the development proposal another 250k, so if I were the people funding the school I'd be pretty pissed off.

But the rejection based on transport is reasonable enough, there's like one bus that goes all around the district from Campbelltown station, the round trip is well over an hour, that runs every hour so there'd need to be a complete overhaul of the public transport out there. I don't think it'd be possible to get that many students out there without one.

I can't believe people actually cheered at the verdict, how is the rejection of a possible school a victory? The load it'd take off of the public education system would be a blessing!

Also if anyone actually saw footage of the types that left the meeting last night, this wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

[Jude]

This is why terrorism exists tbh

[Pseudo1]

I'm sitting on the fence with this one. I agree with Brad and I'm not happy about people declaring this a victory, but then again I'm glad that an institution that segregates people further based on faith is not being built. I'm against all forms of religious schools and think that it should be kept out of education whether its Islamic or Christian.

It's just a form of positive discrimination which reinforces differences between all of us and it perpetuating racism, but I'm sure that building a public school for everyone and then whacking a mosque next to it isn't going to go down well with people in Camden either. We've seen it before on the North Shore.

[bradc1988]

but then again I'm glad that an institution that segregates people further based on faith is not being built. I'm against all forms of religious schools and think that it should be kept out of education whether its Islamic or Christian.

Yeah I was actually thinking of that exact idea at work today. It sucks that 1200 students are losing a school, but then by having the school it's basically doing exactly what you say. It avails to nothing!

I've never really thought of religious schools that way until today.

[Smokey D]

Well I'm pretty sure it'd be no different to a Catholic school in that they still have to teach the government mandated curriculum.

[Pseudo1]

Yeah, it's not about the curriculum, because it's going to be the same regardless of schools, but the problem is that it gives everyone another chance to point out that those people are different, which perpetuates further racism. Muslim kids are separated from white kids because of schools, religion, where they live. It's almost impossible to expect equality and integration amongst Muslims and white Australians when there is no chance of integration due to constant separation.

Again, this not only applies to whites. Put 1200 Muslim students together in an Islamic school without a white kid in sight, and its going to facilitate racism against whites just like it facilitates white racism against Muslims.

[Smokey D]

I went to a Catholic school and I can tell you that I'm not a racist and my Catholic friends aren't discriminated against.

Also, stop fallling for the idea that 'there's not a white kid in sight'. Muslim and white aren't the same.

[badtaste]

Yeah, it's not about the curriculum, because it's going to be the same regardless of schools, but the problem is that it gives everyone another chance to point out that those people are different, which perpetuates further racism.

Eh, only if they're simple minded.

Again, this not only applies to whites. Put 1200 Muslim students together in an Islamic school without a white kid in sight, and its going to facilitate racism against whites just like it facilitates white racism against Muslims.

Same as above.

[mph4ever]

why does it have to be muslim? its muslim because they, the muslims, want to discrimminate. all they had to do was open their door and take in any kids that apply based on where they are from i.e. within a catchment area and if religious education was required then split the kids up for it into muslim, christian or jew. simple really but the muslims intolerance is equal to the citizens of camdens intolerance, its just they got there first

in ireland, just down the road, theres a protestant school. they take in jews, muslims and protestants before they will take catholics and when they get to the catholics on the application list then the places are all gone.

[Jude]

Yeah, it's not about the curriculum, because it's going to be the same regardless of schools, but the problem is that it gives everyone another chance to point out that those people are different, which perpetuates further racism. Muslim kids are separated from white kids because of schools, religion, where they live. It's almost impossible to expect equality and integration amongst Muslims and white Australians when there is no chance of integration due to constant separation.

Again, this not only applies to whites. Put 1200 Muslim students together in an Islamic school without a white kid in sight, and its going to facilitate racism against whites just like it facilitates white racism against Muslims.
You know that this would basically be no different than a Christian school right

[Amit]

is it just me or has the news article changed

nevermind there are actually two articles!

[rasputin]

yeah, there have been severaul updates.
As of now, the school plan has been rejected by the town council purely on the grounds that it has infrastructure problems or something.

[PianoDan]

Many Muslims in Australia simply to not want to assimilate. Australians are often seen as "racist" because they don't like it when people come and make themselves at home in the "lucky land" - the free, wealthy, tolerant country that it is - and refuse to take on the culture. There's nothing wrong with remembering your own culture, but the conception that many Muslims (in particular - and then perhaps Asians, Lebanese, etc.) refuse to assimilate with Australian culture - whatever that may be - is why people cheer at things like this. An Islamic school would be seen as a threat to Australian culture, brought by Muslims who want the benefits the country offers while clinging to their own, somewhat conflicting worldviews and cultures.

While that's not quite my own personal opinion, I was pleased to hear that this school was rejected. I do see Islam as a threat to Christianity, basically. A Muslim school would further anti-Christianity in this country. But then, so do the atheistic state schools we have.

[rasputin]

I was pleased to hear that this school was rejected. I do see Islam as a threat to Christianity, basically. A Muslim school would further anti-Christianity in this country.
I have such a plethora of things to say, that I don't know where to begin.

[badtaste]

Many Muslims in Australia simply to not want to assimilate. Australians are often seen as "racist" because they don't like it when people come and make themselves at home in the "lucky land" - the free, wealthy, tolerant country that it is - and refuse to take on the culture. There's nothing wrong with remembering your own culture, but the conception that many Muslims (in particular - and then perhaps Asians, Lebanese, etc.) refuse to assimilate with Australian culture - whatever that may be - is why people cheer at things like this. An Islamic school would be seen as a threat to Australian culture, brought by Muslims who want the benefits the country offers while clinging to their own, somewhat conflicting worldviews and cultures.

I know I'm probably digging a hole that I can't get myself out of here but - what is Australian culture? And where does all that multiculturalism come into the picture?

While that's not quite my own personal opinion, I was pleased to hear that this school was rejected. I do see Islam as a threat to Christianity, basically. A Muslim school would further anti-Christianity in this country. But then, so do the atheistic state schools we have.

Geez, everything non Christian is a threat to Christianity, whatchoo going to do about it?

[rasputin]

I know I'm probably digging a hole that I can't get myself out of here but - what is Australian culture? And where does all that multiculturalism come into the picture?
That is a good point. I'm sick of people trying to say that migrants need to assimilate into a culture of beer, footy, beer, and poor family relationships. I do acknowledge that migrants do form communities and in many instances stick together, but I also believe that this is because there isn't anything else for them. My parents are completely comfortable in Australian society (we're not of Anglo background), but other than having citizenship, I'd hardly say my parents have taken aboard typical Australian values, which is a good thing.

[2muchket!]

I dont see the Aussie way of life too far difffernt from my own country and I'd expect some integration or participation in english culture.

Of course this sort of thing can get out of hand.

[badtaste]

Hmm... man, this is confusing.

First off, it's funny how the people who drew up our Constitution allowed for freedom of religion, and yet, people still seem to show an objection to Islam (in this case). Let me dig up those quotes again, "...Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?".

That is a good point. I'm sick of people trying to say that migrants need to assimilate into a culture of beer, footy, beer, and poor family relationships. I do acknowledge that migrants do form communities and in many instances stick together, but I also believe that this is because there isn't anything else for them. My parents are completely comfortable in Australian society (we're not of Anglo background), but other than having citizenship, I'd hardly say my parents have taken aboard typical Australian values, which is a good thing.

I think that's rather a negative view of Australian culture. I see it just as Western Culture vs Non-Western Culture. There are pretty big differences in values, attitudes, behaviours, then add the factors of appearances, language, religion, etc, and you have a wicked mix.

I dont see the Aussie way of life too far difffernt from my own country and I'd expect some integration or participation in english culture.

Of course this sort of thing can get out of hand.

As I just mentioned, I think it's a case of the Western world vs everything else. In melting pots such as the UK, Australia and the US, I think it is still exactly that. I'm sure there is integration going on, but with nutjobs like the Camden residents, there are still extremities to deal with.

[rasputin]

I think that's rather a negative view of Australian culture.
Yeah it is a bit negative. I didn't mean it to be so negative, but I sometimes do feel that way, after being exposed to a Western and a non Western culture. I feel that I can be a little more critical of it, and the same with non-Western cultures also.
One thing I'd like to raise is that with the comment of 'Migrants (Muslims, whatever) need to assimilate into Western (Australian) culture', what would one exactly have them do for them to be considered assimilated?

[badtaste]

I guess they just expect migrants to be more like ocker types, wearing flannies, stubbies in hand, discussing footy and the such.

edit: and yeah, that's what cultural assimilation is all about - being absorbed.

[Pseudo1]

It's not about Muslims needing to go out and buy some thongs and a flanny, it's about whole-heartedly refusing to be apart of our society. One example I can think of was a while back where in some suburb (cant remember where though), ethnic shop keepers refused to write their signs in English claiming it was their right not to do so.

The problem is that Australia doesn't have a culture, and doesn't have a specific religion. It has stereotypes of beers and singlets, so when a new Muslim school is built people are afraid that mosques will follow and streets with signs written in Arabic, which may or may not be true.

[badtaste]

It's not about Muslims needing to go out and buy some thongs and a flanny, it's about whole-heartedly refusing to be apart of our society.

Generalisation, no? Not all Muslims have the same isolation agenda.

One example I can think of was a while back where in some suburb (cant remember where though), ethnic shop keepers refused to write their signs in English claiming it was their right not to do so.

Sorry, but I can't help but to laugh at your use of 'ethnic'. I get your point though, but again, I think it's a one off case.

[Amit]

The problem is that Australia doesn't have a culture, and doesn't have a specific religion.

ironically the problem is that muslims don't have a singular culture and they definitely don't practice a specific islamic religion

[Der Übermensch]

No more or no less then Christianity is unified and singular in practice and culture, but we like to think of it as one entity too...

[VomitStainedCretin]

That is a good point. I'm sick of people trying to say that migrants need to assimilate into a culture of beer, footy, beer, and poor family relationships.This is slightly off on a tangent but this reminds me of an event I was witness to recently. I go to Uni in Exeter, UK, which some of you may have seen in the news as being the location of an attempted, and utterly pathetic, terrorist attack by a Muslim convert with mental problems. Any way, some sleazy reporter from ITN News comes onto campus and ends of interviewing one of my mates, who is president of the Catholic Society. This reporter was enquiring about the Muslim Society and the manner in which he approached the issue was frankly despicable. Basically, he asked if Muslims on campus were radicals, to which we replied not as far as we know; then he asks "Are they a bunch of boozers then" - which firstly presents a false dichotomy and secondly suggests an attitude that Muslims can only be considered moderate/liberal if they have Westernised to the extent that they go against basic tenants of their religion, i.e. not drinking alcohol. You wouldn't, after all, automatically assume a Jew was a fundamentalist if they didn't eat pork.

[Amit]

No more or no less then Christianity is unified and singular in practice and culture, but we like to think of it as one entity too...

and i think that's a problem too!

[PianoDan]

I have such a plethora of things to say, that I don't know where to begin.
That's a relief.

I know I'm probably digging a hole that I can't get myself out of here but - what is Australian culture? And where does all that multiculturalism come into the picture?
"Multiculturalism" doesn't really come into it. Australia is more accurately defined by the cliche "melting pot" of many different cultures and backgrounds, but that results in one culture.

I don't know how to define that culture. But I do know that one religious group isolating themselves from the rest and refusing to "melt" in the pot is a threat to whatever culture it is that we have.

I'm not talking about beer-swindling singlet-wearing she'll-be-right-mate footy addicts, either. Whatever it is that I'm talking about is, though, undeniably "Western" in origin, and Islamic culture is quite obviously not.

I'm not saying that these are good valid arguments against setting up an Islamic school, but I'm sure it's got something to do with why the people of Camden didn't want the school there.

[PianoDan]

First off, it's funny how the people who drew up our Constitution allowed for freedom of religion, and yet, people still seem to show an objection to Islam (in this case). Let me dig up those quotes again, "...Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?".
I don't see how "the people who drew up our Constitution allow for freedom of religion" must necessarily result in people not showing an objection to Islam, but that's by the bye.

The writers of the Constitution did allow for religious freedom with s 116:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion...

The Commonwealth is not making any law prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. The counsellors in a particular part of the country voted not to approve an Islamic school. Big difference to the Commonwealth making a law prohibiting it.

The preamble of the Constitution also happens to say this:

Whereas the people of [the states], [I]humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God...

It's clear that Australia is built upon Christian traditions, and this is even embedded in the Constitution itself where the writers put the above sentence in. That does not make Australia legally a Christian nation by any means, but it shows that we are traditionally a nation and a society which has recognised and acknowledged the Christian God. Ergo, the natural tendency to resist such a thing as an Islamic school, which epitomises the moving away from, firstly, Christianity, and secondly, the "Western" culture that is based on and grew out of Christianity. This is why people, even non-Christians, would object to a Muslim school but not a Christian school.

I'm not arguing that there is a Constitutional basis for the rejection. But you can't appeal to the Constitution to condemn the people of Camden who all celebrated the rejection, because s 116 is not being violated. And when you do look at the Constitution, you can see that it was written for a God-honouring society.

[badtaste]

I was more referring to the Camden crazies and their comments to the media. Must run now, will get back to you later on.

[badtaste]

I don't know how to define that culture. But I do know that one religious group isolating themselves from the rest and refusing to "melt" in the pot is a threat to whatever culture it is that we have.

Are you using the school proposal as an example of a religious group isolating themselves? There are plenty of other religious schools out there (the ones I have in mind are Jewish schools), but I don't hear an uproar about them, and to date, I don't think 'Australian culture' has been changed too much because of it.

I'm not talking about beer-swindling singlet-wearing she'll-be-right-mate footy addicts, either. Whatever it is that I'm talking about is, though, undeniably "Western" in origin, and Islamic culture is quite obviously not.

Well, I guess that's why we apply the term melting pot to the situation in Australia.

I'm not saying that these are good valid arguments against setting up an Islamic school, but I'm sure it's got something to do with why the people of Camden didn't want the school there.

Definitely. Do you think their views are reasonable though (disregarding the official reasons for the school's rejection)?

The Commonwealth is not making any law prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. The counsellors in a particular part of the country voted not to approve an Islamic school. Big difference to the Commonwealth making a law prohibiting it.

As I mentioned in the post above, I was referring to the views of some of the locals who had turned up to show their disapproval of the Islamic school, but for different reasons to why it was officially rejected. It was an observation of their views.

Ergo, the natural tendency to resist such a thing as an Islamic school, which epitomises the moving away from, firstly, Christianity, and secondly, the "Western" culture that is based on and grew out of Christianity.

Natural? You'll find that in this day and age, everything is moving away from Christianity and religions in general (maybe). I don't see how the construction of an Islamic school is a movement away from Western culture.

This is why people, even non-Christians, would object to a Muslim school but not a Christian school.

Wow, thank you for speaking on everyone's behalf here.

[PianoDan]

Definitely. Do you think their views are reasonable though (disregarding the official reasons for the school's rejection)?
Yes, I do think it's reasonable to object to an Islamic school.


As I mentioned in the post above, I was referring to the views of some of the locals who had turned up to show their disapproval of the Islamic school, but for different reasons to why it was officially rejected. It was an observation of their views.
Fair enough, but why did you bring in the writers of the Constitution? It seems it was just an appeal to authority, and pretty off the mark.



Natural? You'll find that in this day and age, everything is moving away from Christianity and religions in general (maybe). I don't see how the construction of an Islamic school is a movement away from Western culture.
Which is what I'm worried about. Society is moving away from Christianity. However, society is still "christian" (small c) enough that the idea of an Islamic school, in some parts, is pretty confronting. I would think that's probably pretty natural, given the history of Australia as a strongly Christian-influence society.

Meanwhile, though, Muslims are not moving away from Islam. I think the gaining in importance of Islam is definitely a move away from more traditionally "Western" culture; the two worldviews haven't exactly had the most harmonious relationship throughout history.

Wow, thank you for speaking on everyone's behalf here.
I should have said "some" - obviously I didn't intend "people" to mean "every single person". I would have thought that would be clear from the context.

[rasputin]

Meanwhile, though, Muslims are not moving away from Islam.
That's an incredible generalisation, and I disagree with it completely. Have you ever been to Istanbul? I wouldn't imagine so.

[Alf™]

this is a silly thread with silly views!

[Smokey D]

Many Muslims in Australia simply to not want to assimilate. Australians are often seen as "racist" because they don't like it when people come and make themselves at home in the "lucky land" - the free, wealthy, tolerant country that it is - and refuse to take on the culture. There's nothing wrong with remembering your own culture, but the conception that many Muslims (in particular - and then perhaps Asians, Lebanese, etc.) refuse to assimilate with Australian culture - whatever that may be - is why people cheer at things like this. An Islamic school would be seen as a threat to Australian culture, brought by Muslims who want the benefits the country offers while clinging to their own, somewhat conflicting worldviews and cultures.

First of all, it's entirely debatable whether assimilation is a good thing. Secondly, it's entirely debatable, if not outright wrong, to say that establishing a Muslim school would in and of itself hamper assimilation.

While that's not quite my own personal opinion, I was pleased to hear that this school was rejected. I do see Islam as a threat to Christianity, basically. A Muslim school would further anti-Christianity in this country. But then, so do the atheistic state schools we have.

Well, your ignorant views shouldn't be allowed to infringe on the rights of sensible people.

It's not about Muslims needing to go out and buy some thongs and a flanny, it's about whole-heartedly refusing to be apart of our society. One example I can think of was a while back where in some suburb (cant remember where though), ethnic shop keepers refused to write their signs in English claiming it was their right not to do so.

It is their right. It is the right of stupid people everywhere to be stupid so long as they don't prevent other people from being stupid or, preferably, sensible.

The problem is that Australia doesn't have a culture, and doesn't have a specific religion. It has stereotypes of beers and singlets, so when a new Muslim school is built people are afraid that mosques will follow and streets with signs written in Arabic, which may or may not be true.

Australia has plenty of culture and it's not threatened by the building of an Islamic school.

"Multiculturalism" doesn't really come into it. Australia is more accurately defined by the cliche "melting pot" of many different cultures and backgrounds, but that results in one culture.

I don't know how to define that culture. But I do know that one religious group isolating themselves from the rest and refusing to "melt" in the pot is a threat to whatever culture it is that we have.

I'm not talking about beer-swindling singlet-wearing she'll-be-right-mate footy addicts, either. Whatever it is that I'm talking about is, though, undeniably "Western" in origin, and Islamic culture is quite obviously not.



First of all, Australia wasn't designed to be a melting pot. It was designed first to be a penal colony and then to be an escape for white people. But you got rid of that, ostensibly, about 30 years ago.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what it was designed to be. It matters what it should be, and it shouldn't be a racist, xenophobic country.

I'm not saying that these are good valid arguments against setting up an Islamic school, but I'm sure it's got something to do with why the people of Camden didn't want the school there.

Okay but we discount the input of crazies in our democratic system. It's what liberalism is all about.


It's clear that Australia is built upon Christian traditions, and this is even embedded in the Constitution itself where the writers put the above sentence in. That does not make Australia legally a Christian nation by any means, but it shows that we are traditionally a nation and a society which has recognised and acknowledged the Christian God. Ergo, the natural tendency to resist such a thing as an Islamic school, which epitomises the moving away from, firstly, Christianity, and secondly, the "Western" culture that is based on and grew out of Christianity. This is why people, even non-Christians, would object to a Muslim school but not a Christian school.

1) the preamble has no force.
2) Almighty God is deliberately non-specific.
3) You can and should repeal stupid parts of the constitution because your constitution is not entrenched.

Which is what I'm worried about. Society is moving away from Christianity. However, society is still "christian" (small c) enough that the idea of an Islamic school, in some parts, is pretty confronting. I would think that's probably pretty natural, given the history of Australia as a strongly Christian-influence society.

Xenophobia is not reason enough to prohibit free expression of any religion you want.

But by the way, the wording you're looking for is 'given the history of Australia as the world's most racist country'.

Meanwhile, though, Muslims are not moving away from Islam. I think the gaining in importance of Islam is definitely a move away from more traditionally "Western" culture; the two worldviews haven't exactly had the most harmonious relationship throughout history.

Lovely comparison there.

Society is moving away from being Christian, but Muslims aren't becoming less Muslim. Well, yes but that's a tautology. Muslims who are becoming less Muslim are no longer Muslim.

[PianoDan]

Well, your ignorant views shouldn't be allowed to infringe on the rights of sensible people.
I can quite easily come back and say that your ignorant views shouldn't be allowed to infringe on the rights of sensible people. It means nothing. Apparently you don't think people should have the right to oppose the building of an Islamic school, or have the right to cheer when it's rejected.


Secondly, it doesn't matter what it was designed to be. It matters what it should be, and it shouldn't be a racist, xenophobic country.
There's nothing racist or xenophobic about opposing Muslim schools.

Okay but we discount the input of crazies in our democratic system. It's what liberalism is all about.
I'm not quite sure I follow you - are you saying the opinions of the "crazies" in Camden should be completely ignored because, well, they're "crazy" - i.e. you disagree with them?



1) the preamble has no force.
2) Almighty God is deliberately non-specific.
3) You can and should repeal stupid parts of the constitution because your constitution is not entrenched.
1) I never said it had "force". I was just using it to demonstrate the general state of society when the Constitution was drafted: it openly acknowledged Almighty God in the preamble of its Constitution. Australia was, for the most part, if not a "Christian society", at least built upon a traditionally Christian ethic.

2) No, it's pretty specific.

3) Yes, so?



Xenophobia is not reason enough to prohibit free expression of any religion you want.
Again, xenophobia has nothing to do with it.

But by the way, the wording you're looking for is 'given the history of Australia as the world's most racist country'.
... as one of the world's most ethnically diverse countries.

[Smokey D]

I can quite easily come back and say that your ignorant views shouldn't be allowed to infringe on the rights of sensible people. It means nothing. Apparently you don't think people should have the right to oppose the building of an Islamic school, or have the right to cheer when it's rejected.

No. They have the right.

It's just that we don't have to listen to them.



There's nothing racist or xenophobic about opposing Muslim schools.

If you're opposing it solely because it's Muslim, yes there is. In fact, it's pretty much text book.

I never said it had "force". I was just using it to demonstrate the general state of society when the Constitution was drafted: it openly acknowledged Almighty God in the preamble of its Constitution. Australia was, for the most part, if not a "Christian society", at least built upon a traditionally Christian ethic

I suppose in the vague sense that it was founded by people coming from a civilizational background that originated in Christianity. But it certainly wasn't Calvin's Geneva or anything.

Really, I don't see how it matters. It doesn't matter what Australia was founded as. It matters what it should be today.

No, it's pretty specific.


Given that there's at least 3 major religions with some 4 billion believers between them who would endorse that description of God, I don't think so.



I'm not quite sure I follow you - are you saying the opinions of the "crazies" in Camden should be completely ignored because, well, they're "crazy" - i.e. you disagree with them?

No. They're crazy because they think allowing a Muslim school be built is going to transform Camden into Riyadh, and that all Muslims are terrorists and that Muslims can't be Australian.



Again, xenophobia has nothing to do with it.

Yes it does. Everything you've used to attempt to explain why these bigots don't want the school is xenophobic.



... as one of the world's most ethnically diverse countries.

Oh wait, what's that? Oh yeah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

And, you know, Mabo and stuff.

Although it's important to note I said history.

[badtaste]

Fair enough, but why did you bring in the writers of the Constitution? It seems it was just an appeal to authority, and pretty off the mark.

Eh, I just always find it interesting how people can proudly drape themselves in the Australian flag, but know very little of the country. I guess that applies with a lot of types of people though, all across the world.

Which is what I'm worried about. Society is moving away from Christianity. However, society is still "christian" (small c) enough that the idea of an Islamic school, in some parts, is pretty confronting. I would think that's probably pretty natural, given the history of Australia as a strongly Christian-influence society.

People were once scared of witchcraft (probably pretty natural as well). Influences wane, times change, values change, bla bla. Again, what's the difference between the establishment of a Jewish school? Is it because the Jewish stereotype is less threatening, that they would be more welcome?

Meanwhile, though, Muslims are not moving away from Islam. I think the gaining in importance of Islam is definitely a move away from more traditionally "Western" culture; the two worldviews haven't exactly had the most harmonious relationship throughout history.

Why should Muslims be moving away from Islam? And yes, Islam is becoming better understood in the Western world, that isn't an issue at all. You're making things incredibly black and white.

Again, xenophobia has nothing to do with it.

What about religious intolerance?

[PianoDan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy)

And, you know, Mabo and stuff.

Although it's important to note I said history.
Fair enough.

If you're opposing it solely because it's Muslim, yes there is. In fact, it's pretty much text book.
The Muslim school is opposed because it's Muslim. Where its students and teachers are from and whether or not they're foreigners has nothing to do with it. I oppose Islam because of what it teaches, not because its adherents are primarily from the Middle East, or whatever. I would oppose an all-Australian Muslim school just as much as an all-Saudi Arabian Muslim school.

Again, what's the difference between the establishment of a Jewish school? Is it because the Jewish stereotype is less threatening, that they would be more welcome?
It would be more welcome than a Muslim school in a society built upon and traditionally leaning towards the Judeo-Christian ethic because... well, it's obvious, really.

Why should Muslims be moving away from Islam? And yes, Islam is becoming better understood in the Western world, that isn't an issue at all. You're making things incredibly black and white.

I didn't say Muslims should move away from Islam. I said that they're not, while the rest of society in general is moving away from religion, as you said. Christians and a primarily Christian society is becoming more and more permissive. So, relatively, Islam is staying stedfast while the rest of society drifts with a liberal, secular world; Islam is gaining a foothold while Christianity loses its foothold, due to its increasing permissiveness. Relatively, Islam is becoming more influential and invasive.

What about religious intolerance?
What about it?

Intolerance of a dramatically different worldview is not bad. Intolerance of a dangerous religion is good (I'm not saying this is black and white and that Islam is always dangerous, no matter what. I'm just making a more general statement - a dangerous religion should not be tolerated). We shouldn't be intolerant of individual practicing Muslims; on the contrary, they should be loved and not denied any of the protection Australia has to offer anyone else. But that doesn't mean we should tolerate the gradual - or not so gradual, as the case may be - shifting of society away from its core, traditional values to those of another, very different worldview.

If Nazi sympathisers were to come and live here, we should tolerate them individually and let them live here in peace. But if they started setting up schools and indoctrinating students with their values, that should not be tolerated. I don't think too many people would disagree. There's a big difference between intolerance of a worldview and hatred of an individual. There's nothing wrong with intolerance of Islam as a worldview, as long as we don't hate and persecute the Muslims who adhere to it.

And I might add that the views and values and religion of the Christians and Camden crazies who don't want the Muslim school are not being tolerated by some posters on this board, even those who cry "religious intolerance" as though it's the unforgivable sin.

[Iscariot]

islam is an abrahamic religion what is the issue

[Iskandar]

Did you really just compare the case of Muslim immigrants to Nazi sympathizers? Please clarify this, because I'm confused here.
islam is an abrahamic religion what is the issueAnd non-Abrahamic religions like Sikhism and Hinduism would doubtlessly be tolerated.

[Smokey D]

The Muslim school is opposed because it's Muslim. Where its students and teachers are from and whether or not they're foreigners has nothing to do with it. I oppose Islam because of what it teaches, not because its adherents are primarily from the Middle East, or whatever. I would oppose an all-Australian Muslim school just as much as an all-Saudi Arabian Muslim school.

Okay let's not pretend that the distinction between xenophobia and your weird hatred for Muslims is something we should elevate to something meaningful. Whatever your reasons for hating Muslims, you are still a bigot and a xenophobe.


It would be more welcome than a Muslim school in a society built upon and traditionally leaning towards the Judeo-Christian ethic because... well, it's obvious, really.

Okay but the differences between Islam and Judaism aren't even that big.



Intolerance of a dramatically different worldview is not bad. Intolerance of a dangerous religion is good (I'm not saying this is black and white and that Islam is always dangerous, no matter what. I'm just making a more general statement - a dangerous religion should not be tolerated). We shouldn't be intolerant of individual practicing Muslims; on the contrary, they should be loved and not denied any of the protection Australia has to offer anyone else. But that doesn't mean we should tolerate the gradual - or not so gradual, as the case may be - shifting of society away from its core, traditional values to those of another, very different worldview.

Traditional Australia is not threatened by Islam.

Also, why is your 'core worldview' something we should listen to? I'm disgusted by your thinking.


And I might add that the views and values and religion of the Christians and Camden crazies who don't want the Muslim school are not being tolerated by some posters on this board, even those who cry "religious intolerance" as though it's the unforgivable sin.

I don't tolerate any racism or bigotedness. As you say, some views are to be opposed. It's just not true, however, that Islam should be opposed.

Certainly, some forms of it should be. But so should a lot of things.

[Reaganista]

even though all religions are horrible destructive and stupid islam is clearly well worse than average whats worse than being born a muslim girl

[Iskandar]

Being born a sub-Saharan African girl.

[Jude]

with one leg

[Iskandar]

Both parents dead of AIDS.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

I don't really see on what grounds a secular state can oppose the construction of a private ethnic school with private money. There are a lot of ethnic schools here (a few Greek ones, an Armenian one, at least 4 or 5 Jewish ones, etc.), and everyone I know who comes out of them fits into a mixed crowd just fine.

Xenophobes be damned, they should build the school and the cops should protect as they would any protect any other high-profile ethnic target.

[Jude]

I don't really see on what grounds a secular state can oppose the construction of a private ethnic school with private money.


By allowing idiots to vote