Opinion

[Meatplow]

Something that has been blowing my mind of late is the simple concept of opinion.

It seems that no matter how sound a concept seems, or how valid it may appear to a group of people there will always be at least one person who will disagree on any given topic.

What are the mechanics behind this, why is this so?

[guitrguy]

Ultimate subjectivity

[thedeadwalk!]

I guess people have particular world views that facts have to fit into.

[mph4ever]

heritage and environment

[PerpetualBurn]

A lot of people are idiots.

[Jude]

Ultimate subjectivity

This...
A lot of people are idiots.
...and this. Put 'em together and you have a world of disagreement.

[BassRevelation1029]

Some are taught to think. Others just hear whatever is the dominant view in their environment and regurgitate it. Not much more to it really.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

A lot of people are idiots.
including PERPETUAL BURN LOL

[Against Miik!]

I don't know how apparent this may be, but I tend to disagree with just about everything I hear, unless it is of course a fact. If there is even the smallest possibility for an argument, I will take it.

It's hard to convince people of things on here, but irl, its really satisfying when I dispute an argument with an absolutely absurd line of thinking, but am able to phrase so as to change the persons mind. I mean, I'm not that good at anything, so I have to have to something to boost my self esteem, and winning arguments is it.

Honestly, that is my line of thinking.

[Smokey D]

Some are taught to think. Others just hear whatever is the dominant view in their environment and regurgitate it. Not much more to it really.

You understand that some of what people come up with independently is completely and utterly wrong and that a great deal of widely disseminated information is pretty much bang on, right?

[BassRevelation1029]

You understand that some of what people come up with independently is completely and utterly wrong and that a great deal of widely disseminated information is pretty much bang on, right?
Seeing how we're on the subject of opinion, 'wrong' and 'right' don't go very far.

[Smokey D]

It's completely absurd to think that some opinions aren't better than others, though.

[Against Miik!]

I think I know what he's getting at. Example:

We swallow 6 spiders every year in our sleep (or whatever it is)

I guarantee most people would claim that as a fact, or at least have heard it and would see no reason to dispute it.

A rational thinking man would give a bit more credit to the spider, and know that its complete bull.

There is nothing inherently wrong about the mainstream view, or inherently right about the minority one. But still, maybe we are just all a bit smarter than the average person, and forget just how ignorant most people can be.

Nothing is more dangerous than a mob mentality, and unfortunately, the mob mentality is, follow the mob.

[guitarded_chuck]

Everyone is right in their own minds.

[Smokey D]

Sure but sometimes what the average person thinks is entirely correct.

There are way too many whackjobs out there to give unqualified support to their opinions purely on the basis they think independently.

[BassRevelation1029]

It's completely absurd to think that some opinions aren't better than others, though.

Where'd you see that even implied in my post?

We're talking about why people disagree, not why people form valid/invalid opinions (on which the standards of 'valid' would be nothing more than opinion themselves).

[McP3000]

Sure but sometimes what the average person thinks is entirely correct.

There are way too many whackjobs out there to give unqualified support to their opinions purely on the basis they think independently.
hahaha

see loose change

[Seafroggys]

In my opinion (haha ruining my argument already!), people on the internet (and I guess real life, whatever that is) hide behind opinions so that nobody can dispute them.....because opinions are never wrong, isn't that correct?

[Against Miik!]

In my opinion (haha ruining my argument already!), people on the internet (and I guess real life, whatever that is) hide behind opinions so that nobody can dispute them.....because opinions are never wrong, isn't that correct?

imo? no.

[Smokey D]

Where'd you see that even implied in my post?

Well, I'm reading it out of your conspiracy theorising coupled with the fact that most people who say stuff like 'there are a few independent thinkers out there. Everyone else is a sheep' tend to think that thinking independently is good enough. It's only tangential to the thread topic but I don't see how much further that question can go.

We're talking about why people disagree, not why people form valid/invalid opinions (on which the standards of 'valid' would be nothing more than opinion themselves).

Valid and invalid are questions of logic.

Correct and false are more properly questions of fact.

[BassRevelation1029]

Well, I'm reading it out of your conspiracy theorising coupled with the fact that most people who say stuff like 'there are a few independent thinkers out there.

Its unfortunate you view everyone who disagrees with you a conspiracy theorist.

This is a fact. Some people think for themselves. Other people adopt opinions based on what they hear. People disagree.Did I mention anything about either one being higher than the other? To answer your question, No, I didn't

Everyone else is a sheep' tend to think that thinking independently is good enough.
once again thats your own assumption.

Thats not my argument, so continue swinging away at the straw man if you like.


Valid and invalid are questions of logic.
I seriously just said that, which is why I said "we're talking about people who agree/disagree.."

Now that you have Realized you've made a terrible assumption on my post, you're getting caught up on semantics in order to keep your argument afloat.

[Against Miik!]

Smokey thinks I'm a conspiracy theorist.

[Smokey D]

Its unfortunate you view everyone who disagrees with you a conspiracy theorist.

Not everyone. People can be wrong for lots of reasons.


once again thats your own assumption.

Thats not my argument, so continue swinging away at the straw man if you like.

Even if I read more into the statement than I should have, it's still true that lots of 'independent thinking is a rare quality' is generally remarked on by people who think common knowledge is deficient.

I seriously just said that, which is why I said "we're talking about people who agree/disagree.."

Er.

If we're speaking broadly then yes the term valid and correct are close enough to synonyms. If we're speaking specifically, as I think we are, on the nature of arguments and opinions and such, then validity is purely a question of whether the conclusion is entailed by the premises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity


Now that you have Realized you've made a terrible assumption on my post, you're getting caught up on semantics in order to keep your argument afloat.

Um, my argument (which isn't really an argument) doesn't depend upon your comment to be true or not.

Smokey thinks I'm a conspiracy theorist.

Well you are.

[Against Miik!]

I prefer to think of it as being charmingly pessimistic.

[BassRevelation1029]

Even if I read more into the statement than I should have, it's still true that lots of 'independent thinking is a rare quality' is generally remarked on by people who think common knowledge is deficient.
I've honestly never heard that said before. The sheep mentality is one i've heard a few times, but that never touches on the deficiency of common knowledge. It only assumes so.
If we're speaking broadly then yes the term valid and correct are close enough to synonyms. If we're speaking specifically, as I think we are, on the nature of arguments and opinions and such, then validity is purely a question of whether the conclusion is entailed by the premises.
yes we're speaking very broadly. If you look past all those words you'll realize we were saying the same thing.

Um, my argument (which isn't really an argument) doesn't depend upon your comment to be true or not.
True.

f*ck you got me there.

[Odin88]

Everyone is right in their own minds.

i hate that **** :angry:

[beso negro]

Some are taught to think. Others just hear whatever is the dominant view in their environment and regurgitate it. Not much more to it really.

yea but what does this have to do with anything? Some people think and are still wrong. Others regurgitate and are right whoop de doo.

[peeted]

Our opinions are based on our experience, all our experiences are diffrent, so it follows that our opinions will be diffrent as well. Not much more to it really. Truly indipendent thinking is only possible for hermits, you cant think outside your schema and your schema is formed by your social environment.

[beso negro]

nice post peeted. that's what i wanted to say but couldn't quite figure out how to phrase it.

[guitrguy]

In my opinion (haha ruining my argument already!), people on the internet (and I guess real life, whatever that is) hide behind opinions so that nobody can dispute them.....because opinions are never wrong, isn't that correct?

You are assuming that there is everything has an answer that fits the minds of humans. Gov't example is a human concept, and creation. People will forever have different opinions about gov't due to previous experiences, socioeconomic status, etc.

[BassRevelation1029]

yea but what does this have to do with anything? Some people think and are still wrong. Others regurgitate and are right whoop de doo.
again this has nothing to do with right or wrong. Read my replies to smokey.

[beso negro]

people who think independently disagree amongst each other just like those who restate dominate views disagree amongst each other. what you said just seems like an empty statement to me maybe you should rephrase it. or maybe im just dense idk.

peeted put it better and maybe that's what you were trying to say.

[cometuesday]

i, personally, don't feel that people communicate very well and that plays a large part in it all. i don't care to debate over what's valid or invalid or right or wrong because for the most part if i can't really communicate what i think or feel to someone then our "opinions" are kind of null and void, be it due to my inability to place it into words, misinterpretation on the receipiant's part, or a number of separate or little factors.

i mean it's the whole if i see green, what color do you see kind of thing. i think not only our minds but our consciousness as a whole are both so adamantly reliant on subjectivity that logic or no, truth or not, valid or not, we can't ever truly express to each other the absolute extent of our own mental state, let alone fully comprehend anyone else's. that's a whole different discussion though.

that said, i think that's a big part of why opinions end up differing so drastically and consistently among people. but that's just me, and could very well be my own perceptive slant on what i'm seeing.

[BassRevelation1029]

maybe you should rephrase it. or maybe im just dense idk.


or maybe you read too much into it like smokey.

nah i think the dense part is right :p

[Moon Flavor]

Maybe everybody just likes to think they have an independent opinion, as that's mad trendy right now. And maybe that's why there's a bunch of morons here arguing for the sake of arguing constantly?

I mean, it's not like this thread is a complete mockery of itself or anything like that...

[cometuesday]

i hear irony is in too.

[Moon Flavor]

no thanks i'm on a diet

[siva_chair]

Because people develop concrete and fairly static worldviews for various reasons, and will usually reject things that don't exactly fit within said worldview. Many times, I think, this is out of fear.

[Smokey D]

That people hold static worldviews isn't essential to the question of why they have differing opinions.

[siva_chair]

That people hold static worldviews isn't essential to the question of why they have differing opinions.

You are probably far more likely to be skeptical or outright reject something that doesn't fit nicely within your worldview.

People have differing opinions because they usually have differing worldviews (which were probably brought on by various forms of conditioning and subjective experiences).

[Smokey D]

True. But people reconcile different opinions all the time. The reason people have different opinions is due to different experience. It's not essential that they reject other people's worldviews. They simply may not have been exposed to different opinions.

One reason some people persist in holding different opinions might be because they're afraid of accepting the opposite. But that's a separate question, I think.

[siva_chair]

True. But people reconcile different opinions all the time.

I didn't mean to imply that they didn't.

The reason people have different opinions is due to different experience. It's not essential that they reject other people's worldviews. They simply may not have been exposed to different opinions.

I didn't mean to imply that they must reject other people's opinions, it's just that differing static worldviews often prevent people from reaching agreement on an issue.

One reason some people persist in holding different opinions might be because they're afraid of accepting the opposite. But that's a separate question, I think.

Probably.

[Futue te Ipsum]

people can have opinions that are demonstratably false.

most of america does :/

[siva_chair]

people can have opinions that are demonstratably false.

most of america does :/

People can demonstratably stink due to not washing their ***.

Most of Europe does. :/


Wow I never realized making stuff up could be so fun. You might be on to something here. :smoke:

[Jude]

People can demonstratably stink due to not washing their ***.

Most of Europe does. :/


Wow I never realized making stuff up could be so fun. You might be on to something here. :smoke:

Uh

An awful lot of Americans DO hold opinions that are demonstratably false if you weren't aware of that

Speaking as an American here who's surrounded by a country of dipshits

[JohnXDoe]

opinions are what stupid people have when they disagree with me

[koastokoast]

There is no such thing as ultimate objectivity.
Facts are limited through our own subjective experiences of such pieces of information. When we see a piece of evidence, it must be filtered through our subjective understanding before we can come to a conclusion regarding its validity. To this extent nothing is intrinsically true or false.
Of course, this undermines logic entirely, but there you go.
That's my opinion, anyway.
P.S. I am aware that I have not actually answered the TS's question. :naughty:

[siva_chair]

Uh

An awful lot of Americans DO hold opinions that are demonstratably false if you weren't aware of that

Speaking as an American here who's surrounded by a country of dippoops

Uh and an awful lot of Europeans smell terrible. What is your point?

Also, I'd venture to say that you don't know but a very small portion of the US population so saying that most people hold said false opinions is pretty stupid and shortsighted.

[Smokey D]

Ngh, it's pretty damn obvious both lots of Americans and lots of Europeans hold stupid opinions. Quit being so defensive, siva.

[siva_chair]

Ngh, it's pretty damn obvious both lots of Americans and lots of Europeans hold stupid opinions. Quit being so defensive, siva.

Why?

I'm pretty sure I can make fun of whatever country or countries I want to.

And yes, you pretty much said my point: Idiocy isn't some phenomenon unique to America.

[beso negro]

no siva did good here. i'm tired of all this America has the most stupid people bullshit too.

i mean check out this thread: http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558211

[Smokey D]

It's one thing to say there are a lot of stupid people in America. It's quite different to say America has more stupid people than elsewhere.

[mph4ever]

first off, we can't really compare levels of stupidity by country. surely there is no such thing as a stupidity scale. there are perceptions though. i have travelled extensively for work and leisure, world wide. and i can say that i find no body of people more stupid than others.

my perception of american, english, canadians, lots of irish and australians is that they are considered stupid because they live very insular lives, dealing with the challenges of day to day life and trying to enjoy it and really have little knowledge of the wider world issues. doesn't mean they are stupid, just ignorant. i can see why some intellectual elitist snobs would go around calling these people stupid, which really isn't very fair.

i am sure this is exactly the same in non english speaking countries, its just i can't validate it the same way due to language barriers plus, where i tend to travel in non english speaking countries, people that i interact with, in the most part, are in the business of hospitality and service and as such have to be able to engage me in a different manner than if i walked into redneckville and tried to have a conversation about the world banks plan to stop the spread of sexually transimtted diseases in tanzania with somebody over a beer and a game of 8 ball, its just not on their radar, doesn't make them stupid, just not interested, not informed, ignorant in some ways

[Against Miik!]

Americans get a bad wrap for the stupidity thing because we, as the apparent leaders of the free world, are expect to be knowledgeable about the things we are doing around the world, when in fact we are not. That is really all it comes down to. Its all relative.

Nobody expects anything of the Aussie's, or other similar countries. So what if they can't point out Iraq on a map? They didn't lead the invasion of that country.

If you can follow what I'm saying, that is why Americans specifically are viewed as stupid. However, there is an undeniable trend of anti-intellectualism in the US. If you won't take my word for it, its has been written about in the Washington Post and NY Times recently, so a google search should back up my point.

[Smokey D]

I'd say that people commonly decried as stupid by foreigners exert far greater political pressure in the US than comparable groups in other western countries, though. Only in the US does intelligent design become a serious political issue, for example.

[Futue te Ipsum]

People can demonstratably stink due to not washing their ***.

Most of Europe does. :/


Wow I never realized making stuff up could be so fun. You might be on to something here. :smoke:yeah but i didn't make stuff up

many americans do believe in creationism and it's ****ing retarded

and tbh what you said is probably true too because most eastern european toilets cant handle toilet paper going down them so who knows maybe they don't wipe

[Jude]

Uh and an awful lot of Europeans smell terrible. What is your point?

Also, I'd venture to say that you don't know but a very small portion of the US population so saying that most people hold said false opinions is pretty stupid and shortsighted.

They elected Bush twice so not really

[siva_chair]

yeah but i didn't make stuff up

many americans do believe in creationism and it's ****ing retarded

and tbh what you said is probably true too because most eastern european toilets cant handle toilet paper going down them so who knows maybe they don't wipe

You said most. Which is wrong and made up.

They elected Bush twice so not really

Umm the majority of the American people didn't elect Bush so I don't know what you are talking about.