Sex Changes for Children

[south_of_heaven 11]

Searched on CNN.com and they provided a link to the story from FOX News (shut up, don't want to hear about it right now).

Boston’s Children’s Hospital bills itself as the hospital for children — and now it’s also the hospital for children who want a sex change, a procedure some critics are calling “barbaric.”

Dr. Norman Spack, a pediatric specialist at the hospital, has launched a clinic for transgendered kids — boys who feel like girls, girls who want to be boys — and he’s opening his doors to patients as young as 7.

Spack offers his younger patients counseling and drugs that delay the onset of puberty. The drugs stop the natural flood of hormones that would make it difficult to have a sex alteration later in life, allowing patients more time to decide whether they want to make the change.

Spack also offers some teenagers hormone therapy, a drastic step that changes the way they grow and develop. While the effects of drug treatments can be stopped, long-term hormone therapy can be irreversible, causing permanent infertility in both sexes.

For some, that trade-off is worth it. Transgendered children are deeply troubled and have a “high level of suicide attempts,” Spack told the Boston Globe. “I’ve never seen any patient make [a suicide attempt] after they’ve started hormonal treatment,” he said.

Spack would not grant an interview to FOXNews.com and the Boston’s Children’s Hospital declined to respond.

But not all doctors are convinced, and some say the treatments do much more harm than good.

“Treating these children with hormones does considerable harm and it compounds their confusion,” said Dr. Paul McHugh, University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at John Hopkins University. “Trying to delay puberty or change someone’s gender is a rejection of the lawfulness of nature.”

McHugh said gender reassignment for children harkens back to the dark ages, when choir boys were castrated to retain their high-pitched voices. "It’s barbaric,” he said.

Mat Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, a legal charity affiliated with the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, says that transgender disorder is a mental disorder, not a medical one, and that it should be treated with behavior modification, not hormones or surgery.

“Just as you don’t give liposuction to an anorexic, you don’t do sexual reassignment surgery on men who think that they are women and vice versa,” Staver said.

“At some point in childhood," McHugh said, "many children role play as the opposite sex, but it is a social, not a medical issue.”

But other doctors say there is a transgender “gene.”

Dr. Irene Sills, an physician and Senior Professor of Pediatrics at the State University of New York, has treated 15 transgender children in the last 6 years, and considers the condition innate as a result of her study.

“We have had a case of identical twins that seems to disprove [other] theories,” she told FOXNews.com. “The twin girls were brought up in exactly the same environment, but by the age of 3, one of them kept insisting that she was a boy and kept mimicking masculine dress and behavior.”

Sills reported that her patients and their families have all been pleased with her therapy and support. She said she never asks families to sign a waiver before treating their children. “I trust our procedures and I trust my patients,” she said in an interview.

But some experts expect legal challenges to mount in the face of further treatment. According to Austin Nimocks, senior legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense, parents and doctors may not be safe from litigation if children are made sterile due to hormonal treatments — even if they do sign waivers.

“We will eventually start to see such parents and doctors sued and possibly arrested for what is essentially child abuse,” Nimocks told FOXNews.com.

Still, some think transgender medical therapies for children, which have been used for many years in Europe, Asia and Australia, may soon gain more acceptance in the U.S.

“Most medical professionals know very little about transgender treatments for children, so I do grand rounds at hospitals to educate them,” said Stephanie Brill, co-author of “The Transgender Child,” which will be published in June. “The doctors are very receptive, so I believe that we will see transgender medicine become much more prevalent over the next decade.”

Yet even as such procedures are introduced to a wider public and offered to younger patients, it remains to be seen whether proponents of the procedure will find much support.

“Just because modern medicine can accomplish certain things does not mean that these procedures should be done,” said Nimocks. “That’s the mindset of a Dr. Kevorkian, and he wound up in jail.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356592,00.html

Any thoughts on this, or more information?

[beso negro]

it's not barbaric. if parents want to pay for it cool.

“Just as you don’t give liposuction to an anorexic, you don’t do sexual reassignment surgery on men who think that they are women and vice versa,” Staver said.

that's a terrible analogy.

[south_of_heaven 11]

My only complaint is that when you were that young, how many times did you change your mind on what you wanted? I think they are far too young to be making this kind of decision. If they hit 18 and they want the operation, ok fine. But at ages of 7 or 8? That's pushing it.

[Mister_Che]

I don't think it's the children making the final decision. Ultimately, the parents pull the trigger on an operation like this.

[beso negro]

exactly

[south_of_heaven 11]

Good point. But are they really acting in the best interest of the kids then? What happens when they get older and realize they can't reproduce sexually, or they look back and just go "I can't believe I did this".

Then again, I don't know if there are surgeries/operations to reverse such changes caused by the drugs they would give to the child to suppress the sex characteristics, so enlighten me (seriously, not being sarcastic).

[Mister_Che]

The parents may think they're acting in their kids best interest, but my first instinct is to say that they're making a very misinformed decision.

Maybe these parents just don't realize that these kids will typically grow out of their tomboy act.

[Jude]

Terrible idea

Basing anything like that on a 7 year old kid's judgment is a recipe for disaster

[Reaganista]

hahaha john hopkins pysch professor believes nature is "lawful" ****in intellectuals think they know ****

My only complaint is that when you were that young, how many times did you change your mind on what you wanted? I think they are far too young to be making this kind of decision. If they hit 18 and they want the operation, ok fine. But at ages of 7 or 8? That's pushing it.
if they hit 18 they're already a man
there's nothing wrong with this

[Smokey D]

Too early and easily influenced by parents. But it should be open to people younger than 18.

The whole sex change as a baby thing that some doctors did in the middle of the 20th century is now widely disparaged for ****ing over a whole generation of transgendered people. I think the risk for that with this procedure is too high.

[J Rad]

sex changes are a perversion of our species

[sweboy]

sex changes are a perversion of our species

a positive perversion

[J Rad]

there is nothing positive about it

[guitrguy]

theres nothing negative about it.

[J Rad]

theres nothing negative about it.

you mean other than the fact that we're allowing children to be mutilated when they're as young as 7 years old and think they want to be a boy/girl

yeah that's not negative at all

[Smokey D]

You don't think someone can feel sexually out of place/misgendered?



you mean other than the fact that we're allowing children to be mutilated when they're as young as 7 years old and think they want to be a boy/girl

I think most people would agree that 7 is too young. It should be entertained after the substantial developments of puberty (which I suppose is 15-16 for most people, but varies on a case by case basis) and a good deal of couselling.

[J Rad]

most parents wouldn't allow their children to get a tattoo before the age of 18 but now we're ok with letting them cut their penises off before the age of 8 wow

You don't think someone can feel sexually out of place/misgendered?

of course they can but this is something that can be treated with therapy

[guitrguy]

you mean other than the fact that we're allowing children to be mutilated when they're as young as 7 years old and think they want to be a boy/girl

yeah that's not negative at all

I was talking of an age past most physical and mental development.

of course they can but this is something that can be treated with therapy

Not necessarily, especially if the causes are unknown.

[J Rad]

I was talking of an age past most physical and mental development.

i don't believe adult sex changes are necessary either

we have to draw the line somewhere and decide when we're being overindulgent of self-harming behaviors

[Reaganista]

there is nothing positive about it
yes there is no they won't kill themselves and theyll look like more convincing women/men

we have to draw the line somewhere and decide when we're being overindulgent of self-harming behaviors
self harm meaning the suicide that these people commit when theyre told they cant be themselves

[guitrguy]

i don't believe adult sex changes are necessary either

we have to draw the line somewhere and decide when we're being overindulgent of self-harming behaviors

how is it either? Last I checked trannies get along just fine post op.

[J Rad]

Not necessarily, especially if the causes are unknown.

so why not put more effort into finding and resolving the root issue of these unhealthy desires

[J Rad]

how is it either? Last I checked trannies get along just fine post op.

can you back that claim up

[guitrguy]

so why not put more effort into finding and resolving the root issue of these unhealthy desires

who says its unhealthy? Gender dysphoria isn't an "unhealthy desire"

[ringworm]

sex changes are a perversion of our species

omgiagreewithjrad

[Reaganista]

so why not put more effort into finding and resolving the root issue of these unhealthy desires

it's a y chromosome i figured it out
now let's treat it

[J Rad]

who says its unhealthy? Gender dysphoria isn't an "unhealthy desire"

if it leads to an entire realignment of your physical sexual characteristics yes it is

[Reaganista]

the incorrect phiysical characteristics are the unhealthy part
lucky we can just cut them off nowadays

[guitrguy]

if it leads to an entire realignment of your physical sexual characteristics yes it is

that doesn't explain how its unhealthy.

[J Rad]

that doesn't explain how its unhealthy.

explain how cutting off your genitals is healthy

[guitrguy]

explain how cutting off your genitals is healthy

Its pretty neutral. If a doctor can successfully preform an operation with little to on medical complications, its not unhealthy. What I get is based on your world view you deem it unhealthy.

[Reaganista]

explain how cutting off your genitals is healthy
same way cutting off a disfiguring wart or mole is healthy
you dont want it you arent doing anything with it and it shouldnt be there

[sweboy]

explain how cutting off your genitals is healthy

Like cutting your hair, there's nothing unhealty about it, unless you get an infection or something, which you don't with modern medicine.

[ringworm]

explain how cutting off your genitals is healthy

this made tea come out my nose

[J Rad]

none of those reasons make the action healthy

it's psychology unhealthy and physically unnatural these are not the characteristics of a healthy procedure

[VomitStainedCretin]

it's a y chromosome i figured it out
now let's treat itI think I'll bring in a bit of Valerie Solanas in here for lols:Retaining the male has not even the dubious purpose of reproduction. The male is a biological accident: the y(male) chromosome is an incomplete x(female) chromosome, that is, has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples

[Reaganista]

actually there was a thead last night proving that women are the ones who are emotionally limited
which should be obvious to any man

none of those reasons make the action healthy

it's psychology unhealthy and physically unnatural these are not the characteristics of a healthy procedure
theyre unhealthy because have the wrong genitals
cutting them off and replacing them with the right ones is the cure to having the wrong genitals

[sweboy]

none of those reasons make the action healthy

it's psychology unhealthy and physically unnatural these are not the characteristics of a healthy procedure

What's psychologically unhealthy is living in a body that you don't like (too long hair, ugly mole on your nose, wrong sex etc.), and thus it is psychologically healthy to alter your body to fit the psyche, especially since the body is much easier to alter than the complex mind. And why does it matter if it's "physically unnatural"? All of medicine and other types of physical alterations are "physically unnatural".

[PerpetualBurn]

none of those reasons make the action healthy

it's psychology unhealthy and physically unnatural these are not the characteristics of a healthy procedure

Except everything we know from actually trying it shows us that these people can be happy and healthy if we accept and aid them, but have a tendency to get depressed and suicidal when we force them to repress.

[cobert]

Nobody should be able to get a sex change until they are 18 and they can make up their own mind.

I'm weirded out by trannies, to be honest, but the operation should still be legal...just not for 7 year olds.

[guitrguy]

none of those reasons make the action healthy

it's psychology unhealthy and physically unnatural these are not the characteristics of a healthy procedure

its psychologically beneficial, as the physical gender fits their mental gender. Taking antibiotics and receiving inoculations are unnatural, what's your point?

[Danger Bird]

I don't support children having their sexes changed, but holy hell all the arguments against it in that article were terrible. Comparing it to castrating choir boys in the dark ages? Really?

[Mr. Ron]

Its wrong if the child/young person cannot consent to the operation.

[thedeadwalk!]

It's wrong even on consenting children. Let them go through puberty first.

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah, I can agree to that.

[Sammy_L_D]

Hoe.

Lee.

****.

This is the stupidest thread I have ever read, on any forum I have posted on.

[Mr. Ron]

Care to explain?

[BridgeToSolace]

We watched a video in my psych class about a kid who was born with "ambiguous genitalia"

They cut of it's penis and made a vagina. Turns out the kid was mentally a boy, and was constantly in depression and social trouble.

Ended up formally making himself a dude later in life, got married and ****. Then he killed himself.

It was a weird story. I'd rather wait until it can be more properly established which gender the child is mentally before cutting things off.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

most parents wouldn't allow their children to get a tattoo before the age of 18 but now we're ok with letting them cut their penises off before the age of 8 wow



of course they can but this is something that can be treated with therapy

the guy gives kids hormones, that's all nigr

[thedeadwalk!]

We watched a video in my psych class about a kid who was born with "ambiguous genitalia"

They cut of it's penis and made a omnibus. Turns out the kid was mentally a boy, and was constantly in depression and social trouble.

Ended up formally making himself a dude later in life, got married and ****. Then he killed himself.

It was a weird story. I'd rather wait until it can be more properly established which gender the child is mentally before cutting things off.
This isn't so much applicable to this thread as the children were reportedly wanting the operation.

[Amit]

lol fox news

[marcus_in_absentia]

Wow. Just. Wow.

[guitrguy]

We watched a video in my psych class about a kid who was born with "ambiguous genitalia"

They cut of it's penis and made a vagina. Turns out the kid was mentally a boy, and was constantly in depression and social trouble.

Ended up formally making himself a dude later in life, got married and ****. Then he killed himself.

It was a weird story. I'd rather wait until it can be more properly established which gender the child is mentally before cutting things off.
Is this the one where they botched his circumcision so they just cut it all off?

[Smokey D]

There are many examples of that sort of thing happening.

[guitrguy]

Oh, I heard about one specific one from a documentary I saw on the Discovery channel. jw if it was the same one I saw.

[PerpetualBurn]

In the past there were many cases of things like that. And it's very relevant to the thread as it shows that simply trying to convince these people to fit a gender that they simply do not fit into causes immense damage.

[Orange Piggy]

I have heard of people who were attracted to the opposite sex during their early teens and then swapped. Perhaps it works vice-versa. Though, part of me suspects that the first stage is a societal construct rather than personal desire.

My biggest worry is parents seeing their boy run around in his mother's shoes or their daughter play with guns and see it as justification for a sex change. I doubt anyone would though.

Also, I find that article hideous.
“Trying to delay puberty or change someone’s gender is a rejection of the lawfulness of nature.”
Mat Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, a legal charity affiliated with the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, says that transgender disorder is a mental disorder, not a medical one, and that it should be treated with behavior modification, not hormones or surgery.
Eurgh.
I wiki'd Liberty Counsel and found this
Before entering the law, Mat Staver was a Christian minister and pastor.
Yeah, there's a real authority on neuropsychology :rolleyes:

I've never really watched fox because I live in New Zealand. No wonder it gets such a bad rap.

[Jude]

hermaphrodites are officially the weirdest thing on the face of the planet

[Mister_Che]

My biggest worry is parents seeing their boy run around in his mother's shoes or their daughter play with guns and see it as justification for a sex change. I doubt anyone would though.

That was my first thought. Granted, the parents want to do what's best for their child, which is noble, but this could lead to quick and poorly thought out decisions, which is terrible.

[thedeadwalk!]

In the past there were many cases of things like that. And it's very relevant to the thread as it shows that simply trying to convince these people to fit a gender that they simply do not fit into causes immense damage.
I believe this thread is more for the kids who were wanting to be changed, not having it forced on them.

[Berner]

Is this the one where they botched his circumcision so they just cut it all off?One more reason why circumcision on males should be considered mutilation like they do with female circumcision.

[PerpetualBurn]

I believe this thread is more for the kids who were wanting to be changed, not having it forced on them.

And it's relevant as an argument against those people who think they should not be changed.

[BridgeToSolace]

One more reason why circumcision on males should be considered mutilation like they do with female circumcision.

Except that there's no functional negative for a male circumcision.

It's healthier, even.

[Berner]

Except that there's no functional negative for a male circumcision.Loss of sensory nerves.


It's healthier, even.

Proof please.

To me, it's just another unnecessary surgical procedure. There is a reason that only the US continues to promote it ($$$$).

[J Rad]

Proof please.

To me, it's just another unnecessary surgical procedure. There is a reason that only the US continues to promote it ($$$$).

http://www.circinfo.net/benefits_outweigh_the_risks.html

Wiswell looked at the complication rates of having or not having circumcision performed in a study of 136,000 boys born in US army hospitals between 1980 and 1985. 100,000 were circumcised and 193 (0.19%) had complications, mostly minor, with no deaths, but of the 36,000 who were not circumcised the problems were more than ten-times higher and there were 2 deaths [636].

A study by others found that of the 11,000 circumcisions performed at New York's Sloane Hospital in 1989, only 6 led to complications, none of which were fatal [482]. An early survey saw only one death amongst 566,483 baby boys circumcised in New York between 1939 and 1951 [390].

There are no deaths today from medical circumcisions in developed countries.

Problems involving the penis are encountered relatively frequently in pediatric practice [324]. A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found uncircumcised boys exhibited significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) compared with those who were circumcised.

http://www.circinfo.net/why_the_foreskin_increases_infection_risk.html

The inner layer of the foreskin lines a ‘preputial sac’, which becomes a repository for shed cells, secretions, and urinary residue that accumulates [122, 426]. It is also a hospitable environment for the growth of bacteria and other microorganisms.

During an erection the head and shaft of the penis extend so that the inner layer becomes exteriorized along the distal half of the shaft. This exposes it to infectious agents during sexual intercourse.

It has been suggested [93] that the increased risk of infection in the uncircumcised may be a consequence of the following:

• The foreskin presents the penis with a larger surface area.

• The moist inner lining of the foreskin represents a thinner epidermal barrier than the more cornified outer surface of the foreskin and the rest of the penis, including the glands of both a circumcised and an uncircumcised penis, which have been found to have the same amount of keratin (i.e., similar skin thickness and protection from invasion of microorganisms) [556]. This means that the inner lining is a potential entry point into the body for viruses and bacteria. (A photograph of a histological section illustrates this later, in the section on the AIDS virus.)

• The presence of a prepuce is likely to result in greater microtrauma during sexual intercourse, thereby permitting an entry point into the bloodstream for infectious agents.

• The warm, moist mucosal environment under the foreskin favours growth of micro-organisms (discussed in detail later). The preputial sac has even been referred to by Dr Gerald Weiss, an American surgeon, as a 'cesspool for infection' [608], as its unfortunate anatomy wrapped around the end of the penis results in the accumulation of secretions, excretions (urine), dead cells and growths of bacteria as referred to above. Parents are told not to retract the foreskin of male infants, which makes cleaning difficult. Even if optimal cleansing is performed there is no evidence that it confers protection [639, 640]. Rather, the foreskin tends to trap and transmit micro-organisms, both to the man himself, and his sexual partners.

http://www.circinfo.net/circumcision_sensitivity_sensation_sexual_function .html

The foreskin contains sensory nerve receptors as are prevalent over the rest of the penis. There is no scientific evidence that the extra complement of these in uncircumcised men leads to greater sexual pleasure. In fact, some uncircumcised men have been known to complain that their penis is too sensitive, leading to pain, and seek circumcision to relieve this. Diminishing sensitivity is in fact desired by many men and women in order to prolong the sex act by preventing premature ejaculation [86].

Orgasm, the culmination of the sex act, is not related to the foreskin, and involves activity of neurones in the hypothalamus of the brain.

Masters & Johnson undertook clinical and neurological testing of the ventral and dorsal surfaces, as well as the glans, and detected no difference in penile sensitivity between circumcised and uncircumcised men [352]. Sexual pleasure also appears to be about the same.

Two US studies published in 2002 both found similar or greater sexual satisfaction in men after circumcision as adults [123, 182]. The mean age of the men in each study was 37 and 42, respectively. In the smaller survey [123] there was no difference in sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, problem assessment or satisfaction compared with what the men recalled sex being like prior to foreskin removal. Penile sensitivity was the same.

Both the men and their partners preferred the appearance of the penis after it had been circumcised. As in other studies [327] oral sex became more frequent, but there was no change in anal sex or masturbation [182]. Their partners were also more likely to initiate sex with them.

you can read the rest if you want i won't make this post any longer than it already is

[dinosaurxbrocore]

In the past there were many cases of things like that. And it's very relevant to the thread as it shows that simply trying to convince these people to fit a gender that they simply do not fit into causes immense damage.

wait

didnt you give me **** for being transgendered?

[Berner]

http://www.circinfo.net/benefits_outweigh_the_risks.html

http://www.circinfo.net/why_the_foreskin_increases_infection_risk.html

http://www.circinfo.net/circumcision_sensitivity_sensation_sexual_function .html

you can read the rest if you want i won't make this post any longer than it already is

And I can find you conflicting studies that say the opposite. The point is that the only reason people still do it in large numbers in the states is because of hospitals pressuring people into it so they can make money from it.

Also, it only really took off in the states due to anti-masturbatory activists suggesting it as a means to stop people from jerking off.

[BridgeToSolace]

And I can find you conflicting studies that say the opposite.

Do so, plz

[PerpetualBurn]

wait

didnt you give me **** for being transgendered?

I'm sure it wouldn't have been that simple. You were probably being a moron about it.

I have no problem with people simply being transgendered. And I'm sure that I've never said anything to the contrary on this forum.

[Berner]

Do so, plz

Go read this page. They break down the usual pro-circumcision arguments into advocates and critics.

http://www.circumcision.org/advocates.htm

[nungman]

uncircumsized is pretty disgusting tbh

[Berner]

uncircumsized is pretty disgusting tbh

I'm going to stop hi-jacking this thread. But one more...

It's called having a ****ing shower you chud.

[Aklerc]

I know a fair lot of transgender people, and by the time they're 7... they probably > definitely know. Most of them found puberty absolutely traumatic and puberty-delaying drugs would have been an absolute god send for them until they're old enough to decide whether they can live in their biological body or need hormones and possibly surgery.

EDIT: Jeeeeze loads of you have misunderstood this unless I totally missed something. It's not gender reassigment at the age of 7 or for children, just drugs/hormones that delay puberty until they're old enough to undergo any treatment.

I'm not sure what the laws are in the USA, but here you have to be 16 until you can get stuff to delay puberty and/or testosterone for transguys and estrogen for transgirls... only AFTER counselling to decide whether you are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. THEN you have to live as your preferred gender for the mininum of two years until you can have surgery. Or maybe that's just on the NHS... private can often be more flexible.

I only know one big case where a young adolescent or child underwent surgery that was in the news a while ago. But it's a lengthy process and it's safer to go through the hormone treatment as much as possible first before looking at surgery.

It's really not as simple as "omg my kid's wearing heels get his dong cut off".

:-/

[J Rad]

this thread should just be renamed to a farewell to ethics

[IcyFangas]

yeah im against penis mutilation

[Aklerc]

this thread should just be renamed to a farewell to ethics
Or perhaps you mean farewell to deontological natural moral law?

Cause if it's that, thank ****ing god.

It depends how you view ethics eh :rolleyes:

[J Rad]

i view ethics as not disrupting the natural development of a child's hormones and mutilating their genitalia to appease a psychological disorder that holds no water as an actual medical condition

[Aklerc]

i view ethics as not disrupting the natural development of a child's hormones and mutilating their genitalia to appease a psychological disorder that holds no water as an actual medical condition
I'm not going to get into a full blown debate with you on this because in every one you base your immutable, absolutist opinion on complete ignorance on crappy, out-dated natural moral law that has absolutely no grounding in our advanced medical world. Whether something is 'natural' or 'unnatural' means **** anymore. All I've ever got from your posts is that anything straying from your idea of normal means that they're mentally ****ed up and should be mentally put right. Nevermind other methods that GOD FORBID may actually make a person mentally sound and happy... oh no. Their mental state must follow the suit of your narrow minded one in order to be 'healthy'.



No, we're never going to agree on this. But I thought I'd type it out for the hell of it anyway.

[PerpetualBurn]

i view ethics as not disrupting the natural development of a child's hormones and mutilating their genitalia to appease a psychological disorder that holds no water as an actual medical conditionExcept it's a documented and accepted condition in the medical community.

And few people who have the reassignment actually go through with genital surgery due to the inherent risk of loss of sensitivity etc.

And we disrupt the "natural development" of all kinds of conditions, so that's a stupid thing to say.

[J Rad]

I'm not going to get into a full blown debate with you on this because in every one you base your immutable, absolutist opinion on complete ignorance on crappy, out-dated natural moral law that has absolutely no grounding in our advanced medical world. Whether something is 'natural' or 'unnatural' means **** anymore. All I've ever got from your posts is that anything straying from your idea of normal means that they're mentally ****ed up and should be mentally put right. Nevermind other methods that GOD FORBID may actually make a person mentally sound and happy... oh no. Their mental state must follow the suit of your narrow minded one in order to be 'healthy'.



No, we're never going to agree on this. But I thought I'd type it out for the hell of it anyway.

your opinion doesn't really matter because you have a mental condition of your own

[McP3000]

ok, i agree 100% with cobert and anyone that thinks that doing this before 18 is a good idea is insane.

(well, 15-17 would probably be perfectly fine for the most part, but it would be easier to make it 18 for legal complications)

[Berner]

i view ethics as not disrupting the natural development of a child's hormones and mutilating their genitalia to appease a psychological disorder that holds no water as an actual medical conditionYet you favour circumcision. Jared, I love you, but seriously. Think about why you favour one and not the other.

[guitrguy]

ok, i agree 100% with cobert and anyone that thinks that doing this before 18 is a good idea is insane.

(well, 15-17 would probably be perfectly fine for the most part, but it would be easier to make it 18 for legal complications)
I think most people that support the choice for transgender operations thinks they person needs to be at least 18.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

I'm sure it wouldn't have been that simple. You were probably being a moron about it.

I have no problem with people simply being transgendered. And I'm sure that I've never said anything to the contrary on this forum.
no like comments like

youre a boy because you were born with a penis blah blah blah

[PerpetualBurn]

That's entirely dependent on the context within which the term "boy" was being used.

[ringworm]

Penn & Teller did a Bullshit episode on circumcision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMlofscJjmQ

i see both sides, one, it is not really needed, two, it is pretty ugly without it :)

[Smokey D]

i see both sides, one, it is not really needed, two, it is pretty ugly without it

Wait, what's this?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

Beauty is an idealised cultural norm established by practice and recognition?

Also, medical arguments are pretty flat unless you live in a high AIDS area.

[Ganondorf]

7 - 8 is a bit young don't you think, surely some common sense must be applied and lets be honest, most of those kids would regret what they've done it later life.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

That's entirely dependent on the context within which the term "boy" was being used.

how about the context "youre not a girl becuz u has a penis!1"

[PerpetualBurn]

You can't be so stupid as to not realise that it's dependent on whether or not girl/boy was referring to sex or gender.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

sex = gender

youre talking about genetic sex/gender

[razedtotheground]

We watched a video in my psych class about a kid who was born with "ambiguous genitalia"

They cut of it's penis and made a omnibus. Turns out the kid was mentally a boy, and was constantly in depression and social trouble.

Ended up formally making himself a dude later in life, got married and ****. Then he killed himself.

It was a weird story. I'd rather wait until it can be more properly established which gender the child is mentally before cutting things off.

The psych class I'm in right now just watched that. Really depressing. Our teacher has the book about it and I guess the brother of the guy who had his dick cut off ended up killing himself within a few months of his brother. Really depressing stuff here.

[thedeadwalk!]

sex = gender

youre talking about genetic sex/gender
Sex = biology

Gender = socialization

[dinosaurxbrocore]

genetic sex = biology

sex = gender

[Volumnius Flush]

This is outrageous! I couldn't get a tattoo until I was 17 but I could have gotten a sex change at 7? This is preposterous!

[peeted]

Yea this does seem a little extreem. Obviousley with the (suprisingly) large number of kids who are born transgender 8 or 9 is a good time to have propper gender alocation but i dont think we know enough about the effects of biology on psychological gender to safley alow children to have sex changes yet.

[Sunshine]

Little kids can't accurately decide what they "should" be. It's kind of an important decision that isn't really a change-as-often-as-your-underwear thing.

And for the ambiguous genitalia thing, a chick in my public speaking class did a speech on that. Pretty messed up, them just deciding what a person's gender will be without knowing for sure. They should wait awhile and see.
Apparently, however, it's a "social emergency" and "embarrassing for the parents" when they don't know if they have a girl or boy. Lame ****.

[PerpetualBurn]

genetic sex = biology

sex = gender

No.

[Volumnius Flush]

No.

Care to elaborate PerpetualBurn for us slower folks. :)

[PerpetualBurn]

Sex is genetic sex and that dumbass is creating an artificial distinction.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

no im not

[Aklerc]

Little kids can't accurately decide what they "should" be. It's kind of an important decision that isn't really a change-as-often-as-your-underwear thing.

Pretty sure you were aware of being a girl at 7 or 8 yeah? Most transkids KNOW who they are at a really really young age. They may not be able to explain it, but they know something is not right. No, it doesn't go for everyone, but for most transsexuals it does.

to safley alow children to have sex changes yet.

but I could have gotten a sex change at 7?
Seriously can none of you read? It's not getting a sex chance at 7... it's considering the use of drugs/hormones that hold off puberty until they get older and decide what they need to do with their bodies.

Gah. Gender reassigment is a mahoosive process that isn't just a "hey my kid want to be a boy"... *chopchopstitchsnip* DONE. It's like counselling > hormones > mebbe different types of surgery.

[peeted]

The same applies though, the use of hormones pre puberty on a child will surley effect their psychological development through puberty in what could be a pretty major way. How are parents knowledgeable enough about their childs future psychological gender to take that risk?

[PerpetualBurn]

no im not

Sex is a scientific term.

You just manufactured the term "genetic sex" as if it was a real distinction.

[Aklerc]

The same applies though, the use of hormones pre puberty on a child will surley effect their psychological development through puberty in what could be a pretty major way. How are parents knowledgeable enough about their childs future psychological gender to take that risk?
It affects the body, not the mind. At least they wouldn't have to go through the trauma of growing into the wrong body - I see that as a far greater risk to their mental health.

[peeted]

You dont think physical development through puberty has a profound effect on the mind? Once again how are parents knowledgeable enough about their childs future psychological gender to take that risk?

[Aklerc]

You dont think physical development through puberty has a profound effect on the mind? Once again how are parents knowledgeable enough about their childs future psychological gender to take that risk?
That's my point exactly. If a child is depressed enough with their own body even before puberty, they are going to be pretty clear to themselves, their parents and society that something is not right. Putting their puberty on hold gives them more time to think over precisely what they want which, if their feelings are strong enough to get the drugs in the first place, will probably end up in transition.

Those children that just show a mild interest in the opposite gender probably wouldn't need puberty blockers, this is in cases where the child is in obvious distress which is what it's like for most transpeople. It's not a mild vanity about appearance... it's not like getting a tattoo and regretting it or getting a boob job in your teens, all it does is hold off puberty for kid who is showing absolutely obvious signs of being transgender.

I don't think you understand just how clear it is, how depressed the child can get or the definite pros of puberty blockers vs. whatever cons you can think of. I sure as hell can't think of any.

[peeted]

I agree that if we knew a child was growing up in the wrong body then a starting the hormone theripy at as early an age was possible would be a good thing.
My main problems are that there is no way to tell with enough certaintey that a prepubescent child is growing up in the wrong body. And by the time it is possible to tell, the child will have reached such an age that the hormone treatment will probibly have had a major effect on psychological/social development through the teens. This is why i dont think that it is worth the risk at this point in our understanding.

[PerpetualBurn]

The risk is to be assessed on a purely case-by-case basis.

If a child is clearly suffering from some severe psychological disorders then in specific cases, the hormone therapy may well be worth the risk.

Of course it's a risk, but there are inherent risks with absolutely any treatment, and it should be up to a doctor and psychiatrist to properly assess such things and advise with the best interests of the patient in mind. There's no way I can see that there aren't at least a small number who would benefit from this option.

[dinosaurxbrocore]

Sex is a scientific term.

You just manufactured the term "genetic sex" as if it was a real distinction.

false

[Futue te Ipsum]

man why wouldn't you want to be an 8 year old girl?

[Sammy_L_D]

"Mommy a kid in my class hit me in the wee wee and it really hurts! I wish I could get rid of it."

"Well now you can, son!"

[1338 h4x0r]

If they're old enough to determine their sex, they're old enough to appear in pornographic images and films

/rubs hands and licks lips excitedly