ITT I try not to sound racist

[Der Übermensch]

So in this weeks Economist there was a rather disturbing article on Black life in America. Some of the statistics that struck me were these:
-At age 17, a black child shows the same academic performance as a white 13 year old.
-Employers are more likley to offer an interview to a prospective employee who has a white sounding name than a black one.
-Only 67% of black men are part of employed, and a full 11% of those between 20 and 34 are in prison.
-1 in 7 will be in prison at some point in their life.
-69% are born out of wedlock, and 70% of those grow up without a stable father figure.
-In 1986, 57% of Black Americans though things were getting better for them, a number that has dropped to 44%.
Most disturbing in my mind however was that in the bottom 1/5 of the population, the median white assets value at $24,000. The median black assets are a whopping $57. 57 dollars!. Thats less than people in many third world nations have...

Sum of that is, Black People get the **** end of the stick. Whats worse, is that the country isn't doing jack **** about it. Sure, we try to address the problems with affirmative action and what have you, but it doesn't change things. We do it wrong. The article brings to light two very disturbing facts about this. First off, in the academic world, new studies show that affirmitive action doesn't help Black graduation rate (from higher education), and if anything LOWERS THE RATE!!! Black Students get accepted to schools that they wouldn't get into on mere academic standing, and simply can't cut it, leading to them having a higher drop out rate than white students at the same schools. If they had NOT been given racial preference, and gone to a school on par with their academic ability, they would have done much better at it. (Study by Richard Sander of USC if anyone wants to check it out).
Another misplaced action os government contract policies. A Black owned "small" business can win a Federal contract even if it will charge 10% more than another bidder. Fine and dandy, except that "small business" includes any with up to 1,500 workers, and an owners net worth of $750,000 excluding home and business. Hardly the demographic who is in need of help.

So how the **** do we solve this? I'm not dumb enough to think that the failing of many black individuals is actually because they are simply black. It's very much a matter of circumstance and cultural perception of learning. In another study cited, middle school age students were asked to name their friends. The total number of friends were then tallied (only those mutually named counted). For white children, more friends generally meant better grades. For black students, it generally meant lower grades. Smart and successful black children were ostracized for merely performing well academically. (Done by Roland Fryer - Econ Prof and Harvard in conjunction with U. Chicago). In other studies by Fryer, he demonstrated that in testing of very young black and white children, no gap occurred, and as the gap started to become apparent later on, it could be eliminated by adding controls for environmental factors such as birth weight.
The sum of it is that the main impediment to black america getting out of its rut is itself.
At this point, I enter speculation, and you are welcome to rail against my conclusion. Up until the mid-60's, the Black condition was pretty bad. Then the Civil Rights act happens and it starts skyrocketing comparatively. In the 70's/80's though, heroin and crack start to flood the community and ghettofication starts to sink in. The black community was simply ravaged by the crack epidemic. In a poor attempt to deal with their situation, the cultural attitude internalizes this, and starts to glorify it (I am resisting an analogy of Slave Morality right now... would be very very very inappropriate). They take everything that is bad, and start to glorify it. Little kids want to be gangbanger crack dealers and seem resigned to the fact they will be dead before they turn 30. The expense is the shunning of Academia - perhaps their best way out - and the setting in of a vicious cycle - a catch 22.
The Black Community is killing itself. Many Black's in the leftist Academic wing decry this outlook, but the more conservative wing certainly see's it. You will all recall Bill Cosby lambasting the rap/hip-hop/ghetto-life mentality as something to be shunned, and encouraging blacks to improve themselves through work and study. And he's ****ing right.

Yes, the Black community has been shafted for 100's of years. But Slavery ended 150 ****ing years ago, and it's time to get over it. Ok, I'll also agree that Jim Crow laws kept them down, but Civil Rights act is almost two generations old. It's time to look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Jesse Jackson stumping to get his 40 Acres and a mule isn't going to do ****. Telling people to boycott 50-Cents next album would be a much better usage of his time.
Ok, I've said my bit. That article just riled me up and I needed to vert...

[Smokey D]

It's a good post and I'll reply in depth later.

But you're confusing the issue when you bring up slavery.

[Der Übermensch]

I only mention it because people like Jesse Jackson are fixated on it, and they need to stop, and as I said, deal with the present rather then what my great-4x-grandfather did.

[Volumnius Flush]

My only point I would like to add is that the blacks have become so encompassed with the all-or-nothing principle.

They are set in their ways. They don't want out of their poverty. It is easier to accept a check and do nothing than to work hard and make something.

No offense to anyone. I am on welfare myself.

The point is the blacks grow up today with a great vision of themselves as NBA superstars or rap artists making big money and selling big drugs. They have an entrepreneurial spirit at heart, which I give them credit for, but the main point is they need to market and accept the reality that sometimes, the entrepreneurial spirit gets the best of us and will take us all to prison.

My advice: Sell something that isn't going to hurt your race even more than what it already has. The fact is drugs lead to three places: prison, mental institutions, and to the grave.

They are selling themselves short and that is where they wind up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that black America's real problem is drugs.

They don't want to do anything but get high and make money off of it too.

I'm not talking about all blacks, but a majority of black youth.

It's all or nothing with them. Either they'll make millions, or they'll make poverty wages.

The only foreseeable conclusion for the betterment of black America is to follow the example of the white man.

What did the white man do? The white man went to college, got an education, got a good job making a decent salary and wound up in suburbia with neighbors who didn't want to kill him and with kids that gave a crap in school.

There is the iconic image of the black mother who beat her kids daily and instilled in them values, education, a mindset that allowed them a way out, and taught them how to take care of themselves. This is the hero of Black America. The old mother who held down 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet and taught her kids that you never get anywhere in life unless you work hard.

We need more mothers like the woman I am referring to here. We need a good role model, we need abstinent women who will wait until they find a good wholesome black man who will cover her every need.

We need a black America who will teach these kids, they have to be got at an early age, who will instill in them a love for education.

We need to get real with these kids. Do you wanna work at McD's for the rest of your life. Or do you want to have children and a wife you can support instead of walking out on?

There are some very hardworking blacks who bust their butt to make next to nothing. But we need more. We need young black men, to give education a shot. Give the system, the only one that is tried and tested for generations, a shot.

[BassRevelation1029]

So how the **** do we solve this?

Easy: We, as in America, seek social and economic justice.

That will never happen my friend. "Let the poor eat ****" is our attitude.


I'm not dumb enough to think that the failing of many black individuals is actually because they are simply black.
see Jeremiah Right: "Different, not deficient"

The Black Community is killing itself.

The black community is trying to survive any way it knows possible, seeing how they have been shunned for decades and forced down.

If you think this has nothing to do with today's outcome you're dead wrong.
You will all recall Bill Cosby lambasting the rap/hip-hop/ghetto-life mentality as something to be shunned, and encouraging blacks to improve themselves through work and study. And he's ****ing right.
I didn't see Bill Cosby arguing for better education standards in pre-dominantly black schools; I didn't see Cosby telling white America to suspend their biases. The last thing the "black community" needed was a successful black man cutting in to them.

Yes, the Black community has been shafted for 100's of years. But Slavery ended 150 ****ing years ago, and it's time to get over it.
How could you be so ignorant?
Its foolish views like this that never allow you to see what the real problem is.

"Get over it" is not a problem of (the majority of) blacks. Realize that Americans still have a bias towards them. Look at the major CEOs; look at Congress; just look at studies that deal with the general attitudes to just the sight of a black individual.

Again, we will never see the problem solved until we collectively seek social justice. We truly need to strive for 'equal rights,' not 'special rights' which further separate us in class and color.

Telling people to boycott 50-Cents next album would be a much better usage of his time.

It might help you to know that suburban, white America is the leading consumer of rap music today.

[Volumnius Flush]

The black community is trying to survive any way it knows possible, seeing how they have been shunned for decades and forced down.

If you think this has nothing to do with today's outcome you're dead wrong.

I didn't see Bill Cosby arguing for better education standards in pre-dominantly black schools; I didn't see Cosby telling white America to suspend their biases. The last thing the "black community" needed was a successful black man cutting in to them.

How could you be so ignorant?
Its foolish views like this that never allow you to see what the real problem is.

"Get over it" is not a problem of (the majority of) blacks. Realize that Americans still have a bias towards them. Look at the major CEOs; look at Congress; just look at studies that deal with the general attitudes to just the sight of a black individual.


The blacks are failing because they haven't given education a chance.

Education does not discriminate, education knows no color.

Education is the way out of poverty. I have grown up rather poor for most of my life and now I am in college working towards a degree. Nobody is going to keep me down and living on welfare. I won't let myself fall to that level. I seek, I strive to work hard and make a name for myself and despite my detractors here, I know the truth. I am a hardworking student who desperately wants a college degree, who has a good mind, who doesn't want to live in poverty for the rest of my life.

Fact: I am in the bottom 42% of all people living below the poverty line. You don't see me complaining. Instead you see someone trying to make something of themselves, not worrying about what society says, and who will find success, no matter what may come against me in this life.

Blacks need to take a lesson from me. I've lived the life. I know what it's like but I also know without education and a good work ethic, you will go nowhere in this life, and that's where most blacks are going right now: Nowhere.

[Already_Taken]

They are set in their ways. They don't want out of their poverty. It is easier to accept a check and do nothing than to work hard and make something.

No offense to anyone. I am on welfare myself.

Congratulations on terrible generalizations, while making yourself out to be a worthless mooch.

Saying people don't want out of poverty is retarded. It is that they are stuck at the bottom. It is a cycle. Most black people aren't drug dealers either, because if they were, they wouldn't be poor. If anything they are consumers more than anything.

It is hard to make it from the inner city to the suburbs for a few reasons. When you are raised somewhere, no matter how dingy or terrible, it is still home. We all know that feeling, although most of us have nicer "homes". And also, you have to think of the idols and role-models for the children.

Imagine you are a child and you and your friends are hungry. Hunger is nothing new to you, but one day a neighbor from up the street (the local drug dealer or gang lord or w/e) brings dinner to you and all of your friends. That guy is a hero from your point of view, so who do you want to be when you grow up?

[BridgeToSolace]

Education does not discriminate.

Sub-standard education doesn't work for anyone.

Black people are just given it far more often than whites.

[Volumnius Flush]

Congratulations on terrible generalizations, while making yourself out to be a worthless mooch.

Saying people don't want out of poverty is retarded. It is that they are stuck at the bottom. It is a cycle. Most black people aren't drug dealers either, because if they were, they wouldn't be poor. If anything they are consumers more than anything.

It is hard to make it from the inner city to the suburbs for a few reasons. When you are raised somewhere, no matter how dingy or terrible, it is still home. We all know that feeling, although most of us have nicer "homes". And also, you have to think of the idols and role-models for the children.

Imagine you are a child and you and your friends are hungry. Hunger is nothing new to you, but one day a neighbor from up the street (the local drug dealer or gang lord or w/e) brings dinner to you and all of your friends. That guy is a hero from your point of view, so who do you want to be when you grow up?

Still, it is nothing that education won't fix. Look at Judge Joe Brown... He came from the ghettos.

Look at me... I live in a neighborhood where there are shootings and stabbings on a regular basis. I'm not complaining. No, I'm going to college, I am making a name for myself, and I will not live like this for the rest of my life. I'm just not doing it.

Education does not discriminate.

Sub-standard education doesn't work for anyone.

Black people are just given it far more often than whites.

No it's the new teaching philosophy they have now.

[BridgeToSolace]

No it's the new teaching philosophy they have now.

Our education system is incredibly broken, and although it has gotten worse, it is not new.

Poor people's education just happens to be even more broken.

[Jude]

How is it confusing the issue to bring up slavery when slavery has everything to do with it

[Mr. Ron]

Wow, those statistics are sad....

[Der Übermensch]

Easy: We, as in America, seek social and economic justice.
Agreed. But we aren't. As I pointed out, we are either helping those who don't need it, or inadvertently hurting them. As I said, we need to work on chaging the cultural attitude of black america to be more encouraging of education.

The black community is trying to survive any way it knows possible, seeing how they have been shunned for decades and forced down.
But they respond to the being forced down by glorifying it. Just as Nietzsche saw slave morality as a result of the weak glorifying their weakness, the Black community is shooting themselves in the foor by glorifying the ghetto condition that so many of them live in. It isn't survival. It's self destruction.


If you think this has nothing to do with today's outcome you're dead wrong.

I didn't see Bill Cosby arguing for better education standards in pre-dominantly black schools; I didn't see Cosby telling white America to suspend their biases. The last thing the "black community" needed was a successful black man cutting in to them.

How could you be so ignorant?
Its foolish views like this that never allow you to see what the real problem is.
"Get over it" is not a problem of (the majority of) blacks. Realize that Americans still have a bias towards them. Look at the major CEOs; look at Congress; just look at studies that deal with the general attitudes to just the sight of a black individual.
As I already said in response to Smokey, I only brought that up because a select group of blowhards (Jesse Jackson) make a big deal out of it. I don't think most black americans even care about it anymore.
Hell, too many of them don't even know enough American history to know what the hell it was all about anyways :(

Again, we will never see the problem solved until we collectively seek social justice. We truly need to strive for 'equal rights,' not 'special rights' which further separate us in class and color.
Isn't that what I was saying the whole time? Affirmative Action doesn't do anything. The black community hurts itself as long as it remains the black community. We need to stop giving a **** about race. I have some vague pride about my ethnic heritage I guess, but if asked, I am "American", not Scottish-American or Armenian-American. Just American. Thats what we all are here. **** African-Americans. Calling themselves that just highlights their difference. The easiest way to equal rights is to be equal. To all be the same. To all be simply American.


It might help you to know that suburban, white America is the leading consumer of rap music today.
Meaningless. A much smaller percentage of suburban, white american youth listen to rap/hip-hop than urban, black american youth.

And anyways, we all know that frat kid with 2 popped collars throwing gang signs would **** him self in 5 seconds if dropped on a street corner in Watts :)

Thats beside the point though.

[Volumnius Flush]

How is it confusing the issue to bring up slavery when slavery has everything to do with it

What does slavery have to do with anything? Get with the times Noah Webster, it's 2008, not 1856.

[gregulus]

How does adding an environmental control on birth weight help improve their academic performance?

[Der Übermensch]

Well, you'd need the exact wording of the study to know just how, but the article says this: "At eight months to a year, he found almost no racial gap, and that gap disappeared entirely when he added controls for such things as low birth weight."

[Der Übermensch]

So they can do what with an education?
Intergrate into American society better? Get better jobs? Advance their condition?

How about funding "black america" and not neglecting them?
How about eliminating the us and them mentality created by labeling them black america and just saying they are america?

If you find me one, just one black who enjoys living in the ghetto, I will eat my words.
I sure hope there isn't one. I never said they honestly enjoy it. I said they have internalized the situation to glorify what they really despise, as its the only way they can feel powerful (Thats why I analogized Freddy, cause its exactly what he talks about. Coping with how shitty life is by saying life being shitty is actually good).

Its a non-issue because it no longer exists. What does exist is the societal bias and the blatant inequality.
Which is what I was saying? I was saying Jesse Jackson needs to shut up about that and worry about what is happening now - bias and inequality.

No. You foolishly blamed blacks for "killing themselves." Its not their fault, and had they come to America in accordance with their will, they would have been successful, like many Africans who immigrated here in the 70's.
I never said it was their fault. Me ->"I'm not dumb enough to think that the failing of many black individuals is actually because they are simply black. It's very much a matter of circumstance and cultural perception of learning."
It's their situation that is responsible. They are caught in a cycle that has to be broken.

where the hell do they go, then?
Into the American Community. They be Americans. Analogy: 1st generation immigrants in the 1900 era or so come over, don't fit in very well, stick with their own kind. Little Italy and such. This 1st generation keeps the old traditions alive, interacts very little with American culture. Their kids go out though and become American, abandoning to a great degree, the old country ways. They become Americans first, and XXX-Americans second.
We have the same thing here, except the cultural pressure to remain XXX (African) - American is a very strong one and keeps the community from being absorbed into America as a whole.

why should we transcend race?
We have such a unique country, one in which we have different cultures and peoples and even speech differences. Why would you want to homogenize a people to make a cultural melting pot into a mundane society?

Because transcending of race is what the whole melting pot theory was all about? It was that all these different people came here and mixed together to become America. What I am saying is that the black community refuses to jump in the pot and be mixed in.

We can recognize the differences between one another, but we must learn to accept everyone and live amongst each other. We can do this without homogenizing culture.
We don't need to homogenize it, but we do need it to be all compatible.


Equality in class differs from equality in culture.
Let us African Americans simply call ourselves "American." Will the situation change? No.
Immediately? No. But it would be a start.

What a thoughtless argument.
You mentioned melting pot theory. Thats all I'm asking for here. For them to jump in the melting pot and be American first.

I mean, Americans started off with calling them ******s...nothing's changed but the name.
Now they call themselves ******s as a term of respect - getting back to my 'internalizing a shitty situation' argument?


I don't know why you brought it up, then.
Because it was mildly humorous? I just find white kids listening to gangsta rap to be lol.

[BassRevelation1029]

Intergrate into American society better? Get better jobs? Advance their condition?

FAR easier said than done

How about eliminating the us and them mentality created by labeling them black america and just saying they are america?
of course. Both are necessary.


I sure hope there isn't one. I never said they honestly enjoy it. I said they have internalized the situation to glorify what they really despise, as its the only way they can feel powerful
You mean making the most out of it?

Which is what I was saying? I was saying Jesse Jackson needs to shut up about that and worry about what is happening now - bias and inequality.
Let me get this through to you: Slavery is a direct cause of the societal divide with the black community


They are caught in a cycle that has to be broken.
They should no doubt be responsible for themselves, I agree, but the government should also be responsible for its people, especially those it allowed to live under terrible circumstances.

Because transcending of race is what the whole melting pot theory was all about?
I'm in no way advocating a "melting pot theory" in which all culture is fused into one. What I mean is a mixture of cultures in a united country.
We don't need to homogenize it, but we do need it to be all compatible.
then that has, nor should have, anything to do with race and culture, or one's refusal to "mix" with another.

Immediately? No. But it would be a start.
are you kidding me?

You mentioned melting pot theory.
NOT WHAT I MEANT

Now they call themselves ******s as a term of respect -

Irrelevant

Make a discussion over this another time. This is entirely irrelevant.

Because it was mildly humorous? I just find white kids listening to gangsta rap to be lol.
I mean the call for black kids to boycott 50 cents album.

[BridgeToSolace]

My friend did a local program called City Year. Basically, he taught inner city kids ecology for a year.

The kids were complete assholes to him. "Bitch *** honkey cracker!" and such. And these are young kids, too. The resistance to education is an epidemic in poor communities. These things are epidemic to the poor, not really the black. This is more of an issue of classism than anything to me.

I'm curious as to the propositions of Der and VF on how to bring back the faith in education, because I don't blame the students, I blame the system.

The fact that they need a kid out of highschool to teach kids is perhaps a symptom of the problem.

[BassRevelation1029]

The resistance to education is an epidemic in poor communities. These things are epidemic to the poor, not really the black. This is more of an issue of classism than anything to me.

Hit the nail on the head.

[BridgeToSolace]

Most racism is mislabeled classism.

Just happens to be the reason that they are poor in the first place is because they are black and the history that that entails.

[Volumnius Flush]

I'm curious as to the propositions of Der and VF on how to bring back the faith in education, because I don't blame the students, I blame the system.

I believe the education debacle can be settled with a two-pronged approach.

A ~ A stern upbringing. We could have educational seminars to help equip these parents with the tools necessary to bring their children up in an environment where learning is encouraged. Baby Einstein is a great program for example.

B ~ We need to establish a firm and basic understanding of elementary math. Reading and writing are old school subjects. It is all about the maths and science now! If we focus our energies collectively into the maths and science, we will see a black people who will rise up and take the scientific community by storm.

[Der Übermensch]

The resistance to education is an epidemic in poor communities. These things are epidemic to the poor, not really the black.
I agree. It is also however true that blacks make up a disproportionate percentage of the poor population of the United States.

FAR easier said than done
Well I didn't say I was going to solve it. Just how to theoretically do so...

You mean making the most out of it?
If you want to super-simplify, I guess.

Slavery is a direct cause of the societal divide with the black community
Yes. I don't disagree. But getting an apology for it isn't the solution to the problem. They can't change the fact it happened.

They should no doubt be responsible for themselves, I agree, but the government should also be responsible for its people, especially those it allowed to live under terrible circumstances.
Which I have said... It's just that the government is going about it completely wrong.

I'm in no way advocating a "melting pot theory" in which all culture is fused into one. What I mean is a mixture of cultures in a united country.
It isn't one culture. It is a patchwork of connected and mutually supportive cultures that work together to be something more. The black culture, as I said before, is self-defeating as it has self-internalized the method of its own destruction.
There needs to be a degree of cultural assimilation, but it doesn't need to be completely subservient. Just to the degree that their difference isn't their prime mode of self-definition.

I mean the call for black kids to boycott 50 cents album.
I admit I stated it superfluously, but I am quite serious that the propagation of gangsta rap is an extremely destructive force within the black community and it's going away would have a very beneficial effect.

[Shadows Within]

Let me get this through to you: Slavery is a direct cause of the societal divide with the black community





Really? i didn't realize black people today where slaves?
:rolleyes:

[BridgeToSolace]

I admit I stated it superfluously, but I am quite serious that the propagation of gangsta rap is an extremely destructive force within the black community and it's going away would have a very beneficial effect.

Gangster rap is more so a symptom than a problem.

The following is probably outside the debate in the thread in a few ways, but oh well...

Based on both societal and genetic factors, men desire power. Women desire it too, but not in the same way. They desire the ability and justification to say "I am better than you" to someone else. To think that they are better, and have others aware of their superiority.

This can take several forms. It can be a desirable woman, a desirable (read: influential) job, or desirable materials (often gotten with the money from that job). Maybe a few others (the moral highroad, perhaps).

In white culture, the means for obtaining these ends lies in the education system. Kids are brought up the think that if you do well in school, you will end up in a place better than you grew up in. You will have nice things. Women are attracted to money, so you can get a pretty wife too. This is how they gain and assert power.

Black (poor) culture, however, has no such attitude. Good luck trying hard in school when you need to work to keep food on your family's table. Part of what makes the white culture work is that the parent generation is often in better economic status than the grandparent generation. This is not so in these poor communities. There is no social mobility for the vast majority of these people. They have lost faith in education, and they are bitter (lulz, Obama).

But they still have the need to feel powerful. So they do it other ways. Either they resort to illegal means to obtain money and thus women and respect, or they resort to "thuggism". Make people think you're a gangster. If white people fear you, then they must respect you. Now you have some form of power.

50 cent, and a fair bit of other rap, is merely a celebration of the thug attitude. An avenue for the downtrodden to gain power in respect in a way that is obtainable for them.

50 cent isn't the problem. He is the symptom. You can't get rid of him without getting rid of the underlying problem. Otherwise you're just removing a bee and ignoring the hive.

[Der Übermensch]

Gangster rap is more so a symptom than a problem.

It's a symptom of the problem that then keeps the problem going. As I said many many times, its cyclical.

[Already_Taken]

Really? i didn't realize black people today where slaves?
:rolleyes:

Good approach, but you do realize that this is only an issue because Africans were brought here as slaves. In order to fully understand any current situation, you must first delve into the history of it.

[McP3000]

The current situation of Black American Youth is nothing more than their own faults. Its 2008, not 1958.

[Smokey D]

Only if you believe that the absence of any formal constraint means people are fully in charge of their own actions.

[Volumnius Flush]

Only if you believe that the absence of any formal constraint means people are fully in charge of their own actions.

I think they are still bound in chains. They are slaves to the music, to the drugs, and to the general ignorance required to completely blow off education altogether, when it's their only way out.

They are shooting themselves in the foot here. We have given them the option to improve their lives, now all they have to do is take it.

[Smokey D]

They are shooting themselves in the foot here. We have given them the option to improve their lives, now all they have to do is take it.

Whether indeed you have given them that option, and that's debatable, it is a option framed in the violence of 300 years of slavery, segregation, political disenfranchisement and poverty. It's no where near as simple as just doing it because the formal restraints have been removed. It is a far greater problem than that.

Some of it, as Der said, is a consequence of the black revolutionary movements of the 60s and 70s but it is intellectually disingenuous to fully exculpate mainstream society's (re white) role in perpetuating the problems. It is a complex issue with multiple areas of interface between white and black communities, several engines which continue to drive it forward and feedback mechanisms which work contrary to what, on the face of it, might seem the rational conclusion.

[Volumnius Flush]

It is a complex issue with multiple areas of interface between white and black communities, several engines which continue to drive it forward and feedback mechanisms which work contrary to what, on the face of it, might seem the rational conclusion.

It's really not that complex at all. There's an old saying that if you don't work you don't eat. So of course the blacks work. No trouble integrating to McDonald's right? Now why the trouble integrating into higher education?

So McDonald's accepts blacks but higher education doesn't? On the contrary, high education gives preference to black Americans who show initiative, as so few do.

Keep the thread title in mind when reading my posts.

[Smokey D]

It's really not that complex at all. There's an old saying that if you don't work you don't eat. So of course the blacks work. No trouble integrating to McDonald's right? Now why the trouble integrating into higher education?

It obviously requires more to succeed at higher education than it does to succeed at working in order to eat.

But the main issue is that in many places black communities or groups within them have created their own norms and behaviors that are incompatible with wider society. Simply removing the boundaries doesn't destroy those norms. While this is factually the product of black communities (but for their choice to adhere to those norms, those norms wouldn't exist), I don't know if you can say people are blameworthy for accepting and internalising the norms perpetuated and expressed around them. At least not to a degree that excuses the culpability of the society which created the initial boundaries in the first place.

[Volumnius Flush]

It obviously requires more to succeed at higher education than it does to succeed at working in order to eat.

But the main issue is that in many places black communities or groups within them have created their own norms and behaviors that are incompatible with wider society. Simply removing the boundaries doesn't destroy those norms. While this is factually the product of black communities (but for their choice to adhere to those norms, those norms wouldn't exist), I don't know if you can say people are blameworthy for accepting and internalising the norms perpetuated and expressed around them. At least not to a degree that excuses the culpability of the society which created the initial boundaries in the first place.

I come from a family of dropouts. My grandpa, sister, mom, all dropouts. I am a dropout too. I see what you are saying. There are societal norms or even familial indigenous norms that even I had trouble escaping from.

I live in poverty too. I live in a bad neighborhood. I was addicted to drugs. I am on Medicaid, food stamps, and SSI. But I hear a lot of complaining from the blacks. "I'm poor, I live in the ghetto." Well I am too. I do too. Don't let that break you though, and so often they do let it break them. It will make you or break you. I am choosing to let it make me, not break me.

You might say, "Why do you have a computer then?" Well it was a gift.

I see what you're saying. When you live that lifestyle, it is hard to just change your notion of what to expect out of life and actually work for what you expect.

But I am a firm believer in working to earn your way.

I am a firm believer in the educational system we have and I truly believe that those students who apply themselves will be rewarded greatly. And I believe your reward is proportional to how much one applies their self.

But I would love to stay up and talk more but I've got to get up early tomorrow so I need to get a good night's sleep.

[Smokey D]

I don't disagree that some people have the will and ability to escape poverty and deprivation. But I'm talking about general social phenomenon. Anecdotes are not particularly helpful here.

[Give me Beer]

I am a firm believer in the educational system we have and I truly believe that those students who apply themselves will be rewarded greatly.

I am a firm believer that the current attitude towards education and the education system as it exists today is a load of bollocks. Mind you, I do very well at navigating through the bollocks that is higher education, because it really isn't all that hard when you get what they expect of you. It's just hardly stimulating or making me a better person.

Once upon a time the universities were respected; the student persists in the belief that he is lucky to be there. But he arrived too late. The bygone excellence of bourgeois culture (By this we mean the culture of a Hegel or of the encyclopédistes, rather than the Sorbonne and the Ecole Normale Supérieure.) has vanished. A mechanically produced specialist is now the goal of the "educational system." A modern economic system demands mass production of students who are not educated and have been rendered incapable of thinking. Hence the decline of the universities and the automatic nullity of the student once he enters its portals. The university has become a society for the propagation of ignorance; "high culture" has taken on the rhythm of the production line; without exception, university teachers are cretins, men who would get the bird from any audience of schoolboys. But all this hardly matters: the important thing is to go on listening respectfully. In time, if critical thinking is repressed with enough conscientiousness, the student will come to partake of the wafer of knowledge, the professor will tell him the final truths of the world. Till then--a menopause of the spirit. As a matter of course the future revolutionary society will condemn the doings of lecture theatre and faculty as mere noise--socially undesirable. The student is already a very bad joke.

The student is blind to the obvious--that even his closed world is changing. The "crisis of the university"--that detail of a more general crisis of modern capitalism--is the latest fodder for the deaf-mute dialogue of the specialists. This "crisis" is simple to understand: the difficulties of a specialised sector which is adjusting(too late) to a general change in the relations of production. There was once a vision--if an ideological one--of a liberal bourgeois university. But as its social base disappeared, the vision became banality. In the age of free-trade capitalism, when the "liberal" state left it its marginal freedoms, the university could still think of itself as an independent power. Of course it was a pure and narrow product of that society's needs--particularly the need to give the privileged minority an adequate general culture before they rejoined the ruling class (not that going up to university was straying very far from class confines). But the bitterness of the nostalgic don (No one dares any longer to speak in the name of nineteenth century liberalism; so they reminisce about the "free" and "popular" universities of the middle ages--that "democracy of "liberal".) is understandable: better, after all, to be the bloodhound of the haute bourgeoisie than sheepdog to the world's white-collars. Better to stand guard on privilege than harry the flock into their allotted factories and bureaux, according to the whims of the "planned economy". The university is becoming, fairly smoothly, the honest broker of technocracy and its spectacle. In the process, the purists of the academic Right become a pitiful sideshow, purveying their " universal" cultural goods to a bewildered audience of specialists.

Penned in '66.

[Eliminator]

all black people live in poverty

[BridgeToSolace]

I am a firm believer in the educational system we have and I truly believe that those students who apply themselves will be rewarded greatly. And I believe your reward is proportional to how much one applies their self.

Now what about all those students who weren't blessed with ability to be "22rd" in mathematics in the state?

You have the right idea, but you're looking at it superficially. You recognize that the black community has lost faith in education and thus doesn't try as much as they should.

But you haven't asked why. It's inconceivable that they just naturally have no desire to achieve.

Saying "get over it" really doesn't help or lead to any growth.

[Amit]

I believe the education debacle can be settled with a two-pronged approach.

A ~ A stern upbringing. We could have educational seminars to help equip these parents with the tools necessary to bring their children up in an environment where learning is encouraged. Baby Einstein is a great program for example.

B ~ We need to establish a firm and basic understanding of elementary math. Reading and writing are old school subjects. It is all about the maths and science now! If we focus our energies collectively into the maths and science, we will see a black people who will rise up and take the scientific community by storm.

haha

[je suis un beau chapeau]

the solution is a cartoon about a black person that goes to school and gets good grades and everybody likes him

[Der Übermensch]

Keep the thread title in mind when reading my posts.
That applies to me, not you. You are being racist.

Example:
They are shooting themselves in the foot here. We have given them the option to improve their lives, now all they have to do is take it.
First off, you completely miss my point which is that we can't have an us vs. them mentality if we want to solve the problem. You are thinking in terms of white america vs. black america.
And even IF you want to think in those terms, I think it's pretty hard to say we have given them the option to improve their lives. As I pointed out, we havn't done **** for them that actually shows results.

The only way out is to stop caring about race, to put it aside, and to work to get the poor out of their condition through better education and instilling of better values. Corporal punishment isn't the answer either btw.

[BassRevelation1029]

If you want to super-simplify, I guess.
Better than outright distorting it.


Yes. I don't disagree. But getting an apology for it isn't the solution to the problem. They can't change the fact it happened.
Nor can America make up for it proportionately. What would help is if they tried, making reparations in the form of education and healthcare.

Which I have said... It's just that the government is going about it completely wrong.
you seem to have changed your approach from "The black community is killing themselves" to "The government responsible for their well-being is leaving them for dead."
The black culture, as I said before, is self-defeating as it has self-internalized the method of its own destruction.

This statement is unmerited and plain ignorant.
If it weren't for this "black culture," We would have no rap music, which served as the 'Black CNN' to show America the problems and neglect. Without black culture, they're would be no longing to bond in a community.

The black culture is in no way self-defeating; if anything, its self-empowering. Thats exactly what a people who have been treated like crap for decades need.

I admit I stated it superfluously

you think?

, but I am quite serious that the propagation of gangsta rap is an extremely destructive force within the black community .
Again this warrants another discussion. Rap music was the most positive form of activism coming out of the black culture in the late 80's. Its transformation to gangsta rap did not occur until years later, nor was it the sole form at the time, so 'gangsta rap' is not the root cause of the actions of the black community.
Really? i didn't realize black people today where slaves?
:rolleyes:
For the readers impaired:

It (Slavery) is a non-issue because it no longer exists. What does exist is the societal bias and the blatant inequality.
:rolleyes:

Gangster rap is more so a symptom than a problem.
I'm sorry man I just can't rep you anymore.

[beso negro]

Easy: We, as in America, seek social and economic justice.

That will never happen my friend. "Let the poor eat ****" is our attitude.

a lot of poor people like being poor.

i mean where i'm from library services are free. but homeless people never go inside except when it rains and crowd the main lobby.

[Volumnius Flush]

That applies to me, not you. You are being racist.


I resent your accusations. I love all peoples, and as they say, "Black is beautiful."

I don't think of it as us versus them at all. I think it is a matter of who was successful versus who failed, and if we can take a lesson from the successes in the black community, like Judge Joe Brown or Clarence Thomas for example, we can begin to correct the situation by introducing novel concepts such as hard work and education into the equation and at least give it a shot.

Look, I could be wrong. Maybe education isn't worth a flip and maybe most people who graduate college never go anywhere in life.
:rolleyes:

[Iscariot]

interesting article though i'm not sure it's so much the fault of white people that black people aren't succeeding i think it's more of the overbearing rebellious attitude that drives them to crime rather than college

that and the fact that education just isn't stressed in a lot of lower-class black homes

the stress is on making money and raising a family, not furthering your education though ironically enough this is the key to making more money

to be fair i think the black community is harming itself as much as anyone else is if not a little bit more

their attitude is not one that can be changed with legislation it's something they have to take responsibility for and actively try to change

[Der Übermensch]

Better than outright distorting it.
Simplification is distortion. I'm offering a well thought out psychological explanation.


Nor can America make up for it proportionately. What would help is if they tried, making reparations in the form of education and healthcare.
Like.... Affirmative Action? I already said that recent studies imply AA hurts more then helps...

you seem to have changed your approach from "The black community is killing themselves" to "The government responsible for their well-being is leaving them for dead."
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive...

This statement is unmerited and plain ignorant.
No, it is sharp and spot on. Black culture has turned to glorifying unlawful behavior. I've already said why this is. By doing this it has locked into a cycle of self defeat.

If it weren't for this "black culture," We would have no rap music, which served as the 'Black CNN' to show America the problems and neglect.
Immortal Technique telling us how the WTC was destroyed by the Bush admin and how AIDS was engineered in a government lab is not productive... It's blatant lies and merely helps to keep the divide in place that we need to get rid of. It maintains the us and them mentality that is so harmful.

Without black culture, they're would be no longing to bond in a community.
I'm pretty sure the black community predates hip-hop. I'm not saying black culture=bad. I'm saying the 'current black culture that glorifies the gangbanger as a hero' = bad.

The black culture is in no way self-defeating; if anything, its self-empowering. Thats exactly what a people who have been treated like crap for decades need.
Have you listened to what I said? It is both. It is self-defeating because it is self-empowering. It empowers the defeated self.
I will state this once more. The current black culture says "life is shitty. How do we make it not shitty? By glorifying the shittyness of it!!" So now we have a culture that empowers exactly what it should be trying to move past.

Again this warrants another discussion. Rap music was the most positive form of activism coming out of the black culture in the late 80's. Its transformation to gangsta rap did not occur until years later, nor was it the sole form at the time, so 'gangsta rap' is not the root cause of the actions of the black community.
No. Slavery is the root cause, didn't we agree on that?


I resent your accusations.
Let me repeat what you said "We have given them the option to improve their lives, now all they have to do is take it."
That is "White People gave Black People a chance to improve..."
As long as you still think of the solution in terms of 'white people' and 'black people' it isn't the solution.

[Futue te Ipsum]

Whilst the problem isn't quite so severe in Britain, it still hits you when you're living in an area with a massive black population...

studying in a university where only 2% of native students are black. Outreach programmes from the university constantly target local colleges and schools, all of which have a high amount of blacks, most of which are able students. Why aren't they applying? Aren't they getting the grades? don't have the ambition? It's obvious that something needs to be done, as it's a horrific waste of potential.

[Volumnius Flush]

Whilst the problem isn't quite so severe in Britain, it still hits you when you're living in an area with a massive black population...

studying in a university where only 2% of native students are black. Outreach programmes from the university constantly target local colleges and schools, all of which have a high amount of blacks, most of which are able students. Why aren't they applying? Aren't they getting the grades? don't have the ambition? It's obvious that something needs to be done, as it's a horrific waste of potential.

Blacks have lost faith in the system. They only want to do the bare minimum to simply make it from day to day, and they are content with that.

This situation, in my opinion, will never see a conclusion.

[beso negro]

I'm saying the 'current black culture that glorifies the gangbanger as a hero' = bad.

gangsters are my heroes too but you don't see me in the streets. I'm in the library pounding physics as we speak.

[spitfirejunky]

They only want to do the bare minimum to simply make it from day to day, and they are content with that.

Racism at its finest.

[Smokey D]

I'm pretty sure the black community predates hip-hop. I'm not saying black culture=bad. I'm saying the 'current black culture that glorifies the gangbanger as a hero' = bad.

Surely you understand that's only a part of a wider community. There are plenty of poor black people who work very hard and don't like rap.

[Volumnius Flush]

Racism at its finest.

There is nothing racist about it. They have shown through their actions that they only want to do the bare minimum. Look at high school dropout rates for blacks. Look at college dropout rates. Look at entry-level positions and the percentage of blacks holding them and compare them to blue- and white- collar Caucasian workers.

The black community has shown that they will only do the bare minimum necessary, to simply make it from day to day. If this was not the case, the high school dropout rate would be lower, the black college graduation rate would be higher, and they would be working in more technical positions.

The unequivocal conclusion is that the iconic image of the drug dealer working at the fast food joint in the city, which happens here in Tyler, and which is glorified in the movies, is the hope and aspiration of many black youth. Sell drugs to make money from the fast food joint and make money on top of money.

Never seen the weed movies where fast food is closely associated with drug use?

For example, I knew of a McDonald's that at one point several drug dealers worked there while approximately 80% or more of the workers were on drugs.

It is their dream. Selling big drugs, making big money, but when the dope don't sell, at least you're still making $6.00 an hour.

[spitfirejunky]

There is nothing racist about it. They have shown through their actions that they only want to do the bare minimum. Look at high school dropout rates for blacks. Look at college dropout rates. Look at entry-level positions and the percentage of blacks holding them and compare them to blue- and white- collar Caucasian workers.

The black community has shown that they will only do the bare minimum necessary, to simply make it from day to day. If this was not the case, the high school dropout rate would be lower, the black college graduation rate would be higher, and they would be working in more technical positions.

The unequivocal conclusion is that the iconic image of the drug dealer working at the fast food joint in the city, which happens here in Tyler, and which is glorified in the movies, is the hope and aspiration of many black youth. Sell drugs to make money from the fast food joint and make money on top of money.

Never seen the weed movies where fast food is closely associated with drug use?

For example, I knew of a McDonald's that at one point several drug dealers worked there while approximately 80% or more of the workers were on drugs.

It is their dream. Selling big drugs, making big money, but when the dope don't sell, at least you're still making $6.00 an hour.

Your argument collapsed here:

They have shown

This implied that they are a homogenous entity whose individuals act only in a specific set of ways.

[BassRevelation1029]

I'm offering a well thought out psychological explanation.
All of this without merit.

Anyone who knows blacks from the ghetto understands they would trade that lifestyle in a heartbeat. Don't 'study' someone without getting to know them and understanding their position.


Like.... Affirmative Action? I already said that recent studies imply AA hurts more then helps...
No, like better education and Effective, affordable healthcare


I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive...
I wonder why you didn't take this view in the first place.


No, it is sharp and spot on. Black culture has turned to glorifying unlawful behavior.
again you're wrong.

Immortal Technique telling us how the WTC was destroyed by the Bush admin and how AIDS was engineered
You're SO out of touch with the black culture aren't you?

I'm speaking of the beginnings of rap with artists Public Enemy (you might want to look them up). Even with the first hip-hop, which inspired Dj battles and dance-offs, it was the rap music that got all the kids off the streets on saturday nights and into the clubs.

I can't believe you cited immortal technique, an UNDERGROUND ARTIST for your own sake.


I'm pretty sure the black community predates hip-hop.
hip-hop was another empowering aspect.

Have you listened to what I said? It is both. It is self-defeating because it is self-empowering.
It empowers the defeated self.
This does not follow logically.


I will state this once more. The current black culture says "life is poopty.
How do we make it not poopty? By glorifying the pooptyness of it!!"
So you're going to generalize an entire people by hearing what Jesse Jackson, a dignified black man, says, yet you're going to judge a group of thugs by the words someone else spoke?

Its not the same people saying "life is bad for us" who are acting a fool. The group that you mean to talk about are those who realize life is bad, yet make the most out of it in ways I wouldn't necessarily agree with.

Don't ever blame an entire community based on the words or the actions of the few.


So now we have a culture that empowers exactly what it should be trying to move past.
'gangsterization' is not what I mean when I say empower. Again, thats not defining of the black culture. Ways the black community is marked by self-empowerment is through the original culture-poetry, music, heritage, etc. Gangsterization is not a defining characteristic, regardless of what stereotypes the media shows you.

Goodness this post is marked by sheer ignorance.


No. Slavery is the root cause, didn't we agree on that?
I never heard you say "I agree" but I see so now


In the most respectful way possible, I have to tell you that you're out of touch with the black culture(Really, i'm not trying to offend you). There are plenty of books about this subject. I suggest "race matters" by Cornell West. If you're in the position to, I suggest you make a visit to these inner cities to know firsthand what these people say and how they feel. Trust me you'll learn something.

[Hababi]

Cornell West is a joke of an intellectual, a man who coddles African dictators and peddles a make-believe pan-African myth. He's not in touch with black culture, black people, or black anything else besides his black Mercedes Benz.

[Volumnius Flush]

Your argument collapsed here:



This implied that they are a homogenous entity whose individuals act only in a specific set of ways.

Not if you understand which they I am talking about. I am talking about they as in they who are delinquent human beings.

[Der Übermensch]

Read all this if you want, but what I say at the end is all you need to respond too. Stuff is getting to staggered I felt.

All of this without merit.

Anyone who knows blacks from the ghetto understands they would trade that lifestyle in a heartbeat.
Where I have I said otherwise? They would like to get out, but can't so have (repeat wha I said before. sick and tired of typing it)


No, like better education and Effective, affordable healthcare
I don't know how many times I've already said better education is key...


I wonder why you didn't take this view in the first place.
Didn't I?

You're SO out of touch with the black culture aren't you?
Well in live in a rural white State if thats what you mean, and I don't listen to rap or hip-hop much. It doesn't mean I don't notice things though. I've read literature on the matter. I've read articles. If anything my lack of a direct connection should allow me to approach this more objectively, as being part of the community gives one an inherent bias.

I'm speaking of the beginnings of rap with artists Public Enemy (you might want to look them up). Even with the first hip-hop, which inspired Dj battles and dance-offs, it was the rap music that got all the kids off the streets on saturday nights and into the clubs.
Public Enemy. Didn't they write '**** the Police'? (Ed. Apparently that may have been NWA?) Again, exactly what I'm saying. Only encouraging a distrust of general society and thus keeping the black populace from integrating fully into society.

I can't believe you cited immortal technique, an UNDERGROUND ARTIST for your own sake.
First artist that came to mind concerning conspiracy theory in hip-hop music.

This does not follow logically.
Because you continue to not accept my argument... so obviously.

The culture is self-empowering. It empowers the current situation though. The current situation is shitty. Empowering a shitty situation perpetuates a shitty situation and is self-defeating. Thus it is both self-empowering (glorifying the gangsta lifestyle) and self-defeating (therefor perpetuating the cycle that is the problem). Even you disagree with the facts supporting the argument, you must agree that on its own it is logically sound.


So you're going to generalize an entire people by hearing what Jesse Jackson, a dignified black man, says, yet you're going to judge a group of thugs by the words someone else spoke?
I already said that JJ is not the whole community. I'm not gonna bother going back to quote myself...

Its not the same people saying "life is bad for us" who are acting a fool. The group that you mean to talk about are those who realize life is bad, yet make the most out of it in ways I wouldn't necessarily agree with.
Maybe I'm daft, but I really need that rephrased in less colloquial terms. I'm reading it "The people doing dumb **** aren't the same people saying life is ****. The people you are talking about are the ones who know life is ****, and then do dumb ****"

Don't ever blame an entire community based on the words or the actions of the few.
Well, I'm not talking about middle class black folk. I'm talking mostly just about the poor urban ghetto black folk - and it can mostly apply as well to poor white folk. They too get stuck in a self-perpetuating rut. The article was just about black people though so I'm keeping that as the scope here.


'gangsterization' is not what I mean when I say empower. Again, thats not defining of the black culture. Ways the black community is marked by self-empowerment is through the original culture-poetry, music, heritage, etc. Gangsterization is not a defining characteristic, regardless of what stereotypes the media shows you.
There are other facets that are constructive. They also lack appeal with the youth in the community, which is where the biggest impact is needed.

Goodness this post is marked by sheer ignorance.
And yours is marked by an unwillingness to even listen to a rational argument due to your own bias :) I guess we are in the same boat really.

I never heard you say "I agree" but I see so now
Me earlier to you: "Yes. I don't disagree."


In the most respectful way possible, I have to tell you that you're out of touch with the black culture(Really, i'm not trying to offend you).
I take no offense at it. I'm a white middle class college student from the 3rd whitest state in the country. All the ghettos here are white heroin addicts.

There are plenty of books about this subject. I suggest "race matters" by Cornell West.
Isn't he a semi-Marxist? Sorry, I really wouldn't be able to take him seriously. I realize that such leftist (not just marxist though) views are probably the dominant one in AfAm study (the article cited Michael Dyson and Julian Bond, if you know him), but there are plenty also black academics on the more conservative side (Article cites both Cosby - not really an academic though) and Larry Elder) who I would venture take a similar view to the one I am espousing here, namely that the black community can't just blame racism for where they are, but need to start changing that by fostering more concentration on self-improvement and shunning the "culture of despair that grips the ghetto" (to borrow from Cosby).

If you're in the position to, I suggest you make a visit to these inner cities to know firsthand what these people say and how they feel. Trust me you'll learn something.
I spend most of the year in DC, I've already been there firsthand. The area behind Union Station is pretty whack. A friend and I got lost there last week. Asked directions from this group of old black guys just sitting on a stoop. Man did we get weird looks...


We are getting way off the starting point here though, and I hate getting onto all the quote/response/quote/response clutter, so I'm going to restate my premise here if you want to just respond to this.

As I demonstrated with the large number of statistics, the poor, mostly urban, blacks in America have it very very very bad. This is NOT due to the fact they are black per sé. There is no inherent advantage in race. The problem is the propagation within urban black culture of a mentality of despair that internalizes the situation, and instead of trying to break out of it, makes for a perverse embracing of it. Academic excellence is shunned as "un-black" and the community suffers for it. The only way kids think they will escape the ghetto is with a record contract or sports. Many just end up turning to crime - which is lauded in far too many of their cultural outlets - as there is no other avenue for them to pursue.
The end result is the self-perpetuation of their situation. Current attempts to solve it don't do squat, as we treat it as a racial problem. It isn't. Letting black kids into schools they can't handle academically won't solve anything. If anything, it will just reinforce the erroneous stereotype of blacks being not as smart, and help strengthen the shunning of learning.
Education IS the key, but by that point, it's too late. Education from a very young age is the only thing that will work. Making sure that young black children don't turn to ghetto culture as their prime source of knowledge and be corrupted by the self-fulfilling prophecy of failure inherent in it but rather learn to be productive students who can succeed in all aspects of American life.

[Against Miik!]

imo, things have gotten worse since the civil rights laws got passed. Not because its bad to have equality, but because it created a sense of complacency that should not, and really does not exist. Racism has been pushed underground. When people see stats like the one The Economist has provided, it makes it look as though blacks, who now have every opportunity whites do, are just underachieving on their own merits, which is just not the case.

When you have to force this idea of equality on a population, it does not really create any type of equality. People still hold their own views, and a law is not going to change that.

[Volumnius Flush]

Public Enemy. Didn't they write '**** the Police'? Again, exactly what I'm saying. Only encouraging a distrust of general society and thus keeping the black populace from integrating fully into society.

I think that was N.W.A.

When you have to force this idea of equality on a population, it does not really create any type of equality. People still hold their own views, and a law is not going to change that.

The rules changed when the tudes changed. Strom Thurmond and his generation are dead my friend. Racism is a joke today and no one truly takes these idiots seriously (the racists). They're a dying breed so to try to pin this on white America is a deliberate deception and falsification.

[BridgeToSolace]

When you have to force this idea of equality on a population, it does not really create any type of equality. People still hold their own views, and a law is not going to change that.

That's not really true.

Laws don't inherently change anyone's mind, but their effects can.

ie. when the supreme court ruled that you couldn't segregate schools, I'm sure a fair amount of racist children had some of their prejudices destroyed with integration.

At the same time, the law didn't really effect the old racist parents.

[Against Miik!]

Well, you are just wrong there.

And Ubermensch, I would read Race Matters. Even if you don't agree with it, it's an interesting, eye opening read, and you can probably knock it out in a day or two. Honestly, its one of my favorite non fiction works ever. He's a bit long winded sometimes, but what true intellectual isn't.

ie. when the supreme court ruled that you couldn't segregate schools, I'm sure a fair amount of racist children had some of their prejudices destroyed with integration.

What we have now is de facto segregation. Whites fled to the suburbs, and opened up better schools with more money. Property taxes go to education, and poorer blacks have less money to put into their schools. It's a self perpetuating system, that while not institutionalized, is clearly present.

[Amit]

Public Enemy. Didn't they write '**** the Police'?

haha and this white boy says he's been to the inner city

[J Lawl]

I think lack of motivation due to negative stereotype has a lot to do with it. You always hear people from the inner city saying something to the degree of "music, drugs, or sports are the only way out". Since this view is so widely accepted, then thats all people try. People don't try to educate themselves, which is the real way out.

Lack of parental care is a big thing too. Many people in the inner city don't have time, or don't take the time to guide their kids, which makes them go astray.

[Der Übermensch]

haha and this white boy says he's been to the inner city

I have. I didn't say I fit in there... I already admitted I'm not well listened (I assume thats the term, as opposed to well read?) when it comes to who did what. I do know that they did Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, which everything aside, is one of the coolest album names ever.

[Charlie Daniels]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itgcNy3L_Xc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_dJehTMH90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzLpO1kxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7El2ybbRDE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY0-uoxyxXU

hmmmmmmmmm

[BassRevelation1029]

And yours is marked by an unwillingness to even listen to a rational argument due to your own bias :) I guess we are in the same boat really.
There's nothing rational about your argument.

You're in the boat of irrationality, and its rapidly sinking from the numerous holes in your argument.

Isn't he a semi-Marxist?
No. Suspend all preconceived ideas about him and read his argument. Don't get caught up on personal things like serenity.

As I demonstrated with the large number of statistics, the poor, mostly urban, blacks in America have it very very very bad.
Numbers will never show the true story. I know where you're coming from but don't get caught up with figures.

The problem is the propagation within urban black culture of a mentality of despair that internalizes the situation, and instead of trying to break out of it, makes for a perverse embracing of it.
But who put them into this situation? I really hate to argue that those affected directly by racial bias and classism aren't at least responsible for their part, because they really are. However, its the pre-existing prejudice of blacks as poor, ignorant worthless people in society which is so inherent in our thought pattern and our media that even many blacks now perpetuate the stereotype.
Those who have responded in a better manner to the mentality of despair took responsibility for themselves; America, the other side to this equation, has yet to take any sort of responsibility.

Perhaps if our government actually reached out to these poor, black communities, they may have a better understanding and formulate a solution based on what the people need, rather than just what they want, or what the government is willing to let up.

Well, you are just wrong there.

And Ubermensch, I would read Race Matters. Even if you don't agree with it, it's an interesting, eye opening read, and you can probably knock it out in a day or two. Honestly, its one of my favorite non fiction works ever. He's a bit long winded sometimes, but what true intellectual isn't.
I don't know I really liked Democracy Matters.

[Against Miik!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itgcNy3L_Xc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_dJehTMH90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzLpO1kxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7El2ybbRDE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY0-uoxyxXU

hmmmmmmmmm

well theres this

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hRbgRffXvHk

[BridgeToSolace]

What we have now is de facto segregation. Whites fled to the suburbs, and opened up better schools with more money. Property taxes go to education, and poorer blacks have less money to put into their schools. It's a self perpetuating system, that while not institutionalized, is clearly present.

We had de facto segregation in the north and de jure segregation in the south before the court case.

I'm just sayin' that laws and their effects can change someone's opinions.

[Charlie Daniels]

well theres this

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=hRbgRffXvHk
I find it very hard to actually find online video of a black person sounding intelligent :-/

[Against Miik!]

We had de facto segregation in the north and de jure segregation in the south before the court case.

I'm just sayin' that laws and their effects can change someone's opinions.

Well they haven't really done a good job thus far.

I don't know I really liked Democracy Matters.

Come to think of it, I got the two mixed up. Both are good, but Democracy Matters is the one I really enjoy.

[Hababi]

Has anyone mentioned Losing the Race yet?

Read that one :cool:

[spitfirejunky]

Not if you understand which they I am talking about. I am talking about they as in they who are delinquent human beings.

Either you just took great lengths to compare delinquents to white people or you're trying to withdraw your generalization that black people are *insert some negative quality*.

But judging by this:

Blacks have lost faith in the system. They only want to do the bare minimum to simply make it from day to day, and they are content with that.

This situation, in my opinion, will never see a conclusion.

I'd have to assume the latter.

[beso negro]

Anyone who knows blacks from the ghetto understands they would trade that lifestyle in a heartbeat. Don't 'study' someone without getting to know them and understanding their position.

yea of course any poor man would love to be rich but this is America. you have to work to get where you want to go. Libraries are free, if a poor man is too lazy to read a book then **** him.

No, like better education and Effective, affordable healthcare

sorry but this is America, we don't give people stuff

damn commies

[Reaganista]

yeah it's pretty common that somebody gets rich by reading in the libirary happens every day almost

[totah]

America is like everywhere else then, is it? 'Cos everywhere else you also have to work to improve yourself, and everywhere else you don't get things for free (well, sometimes healthcare, but usually it's the bare minimum to keep the workers healthy enough to work).

Are there actually any working class black kids on this forum? 'Cos you know most of you live in the same country that this stuff's happening to, so surely it's not so hard to get stoned with some black kids at a hip-hop show and hear them out.

As for boycotting 50cent. 50cent is marketted hip-hop. It's for consumption, it's not music. There's real hip-hop that is an honest reaction to hardcore reality in the ghettos (the whole black underclass situation, as I understand it, also applies to Latinos):

School is like a 12 step brainwash camp
They make you think if you drop out you aint got a chance
To advance in life, they try to make you pull your pants up
Students fight the teachers and get took away in handcuffs
And if that wasnt enough, then they expel yall
Your peoples understand it but to them, you a failure
Observation and participation, my favorite teachers
When they beat us in the head with them books, it dont reach us
Whether you breakdance or rock suede addidas
Or be in the bathroom with your clique, smokin reefer
Then you know they math class aint important less you addin up cash
In multiples, unemployment aint rewardin
They may as well teach us extortion
You either get paid or locked up, the pricipal is like a warden
In a four year sentence, mad niggas never finish
But that doesnt mean I couldnt be a doctor or a dentist

[beso negro]

yeah it's pretty common that somebody gets rich by reading in the libirary happens every day almost

you would be surprised

50cent is marketted hip-hop. It's for consumption, it's not music.

yes it is

[Iskandar]

yea of course any poor man would love to be rich but this is America. you have to work to get where you want to go. Libraries are free, if a poor man is too lazy to read a book then **** him.Totally a substitute for a graduate-level education!
sorry but this is America, we don't give people stuff

damn commiesActually, every government gives people stuff all the time. That's part of government's function.

[Hababi]

Totally a substitute for a graduate-level education!

The opportunity is there. Any high performing student in a lower end school can go on to college. The problem isn't with the availability, it's with the performance. When the graduation rate is between 20-50% in major urban areas, it's quite a problem :p

[Iskandar]

The opportunity is there. Any high performing student in a lower end school can go on to college. The problem isn't with the availability, it's with the performance. When the graduation rate is between 20-50% in major urban areas, it's quite a problem :pI mean his ridiculous comment that a poor person can receive an education through reading books in a public library

[Der Übermensch]

There's nothing rational about your argument.
It's rather Nietzschean, so of course you don't like it, but it is sound.

You're in the boat of irrationality, and its rapidly sinking from the numerous holes in your argument.
Holes only apparent to your biases.

No. Suspend all preconceived ideas about him and read his argument. Don't get caught up on personal things like serenity.
Hm, you are right. Wiki says he's "only" a non-marxist socialist. Not much difference. And it isn't a personal thing. I just don't subscribe to neo-marxist/socialist views on race/class all that much. Wiki also says "West has branded the U.S. a "racist patriarchal" nation where "white supremacy" continues to define everyday life." That is exactly what I am talking about. To go back to my central argument, encouraging the racial divide isn't helpful. Ignoring race and working for all people is.

Numbers will never show the true story. I know where you're coming from but don't get caught up with figures.
Well since I'm not a two-bit crack dealer in Watts, it's what I've got to work with for the most part.


But who put them into this situation?
My slave owning ancestors.

I really hate to argue that those affected directly by racial bias and classism aren't at least responsible for their part, because they really are. However, its the pre-existing prejudice of blacks as poor, ignorant worthless people in society which is so inherent in our thought pattern and our media that even many blacks now perpetuate the stereotype.
Where have I said I believe that? In fact, a line down, which you failed to quote, I called that an erroneous stereotype. I have said many many times it isn't because that being black doesn't make you "ignorant worthless people in society" but rather the situation they are in does. You're a far-leftist... TBH, I don't see why you don't agree with at least the gist of my argument, since it is completely nurture over nature, even if the particulars are hostile towards your views.

Those who have responded in a better manner to the mentality of despair took responsibility for themselves; America, the other side to this equation, has yet to take any sort of responsibility.
Yes, some people break the mold. Not enough do though.
And yes, I have already said the government is a miserable failure and needs to reevaluate how to get things fixed.

Perhaps if our government actually reached out to these poor, black communities, they may have a better understanding and formulate a solution based on what the people need, rather than just what they want, or what the government is willing to let up.

But it's a cycle, and not that easy to break. How can we expect the government's extended hand (assuming they did so with a real solution) to be accepted by a community where far too many of them believe AIDS was engineered by that very government, or that Crack cocaine was sold by it...?
Both sides need to simultaneously start working. The government can't solve **** until the black community will accept them wholly, and the black community can't do that until they start to reform their outlook on life.


But thanks for not replying to the only part of my post I really wanted a reply to :-\
Really, you can ignore all that up there. I won't say you are evading. This down here is the encapsulation of my argument.


Academic excellence is shunned as "un-black" and the community suffers for it. The only way kids think they will escape the ghetto is with a record contract or sports. Many just end up turning to crime - which is lauded in far too many of their cultural outlets - as there is no other avenue for them to pursue.
The end result is the self-perpetuation of their situation. Current attempts to solve it don't do squat, as we treat it as a racial problem. It isn't. Letting black kids into schools they can't handle academically won't solve anything. If anything, it will just reinforce the erroneous stereotype of blacks being not as smart, and help strengthen the shunning of learning.
Education IS the key, but by that point, it's too late. Education from a very young age is the only thing that will work. Making sure that young black children don't turn to ghetto culture as their prime source of knowledge and be corrupted by the self-fulfilling prophecy of failure inherent in it but rather learn to be productive students who can succeed in all aspects of American life.

[beso negro]

I mean his ridiculous comment that a poor person can receive an education through reading books in a public library

it's how I learned several programming languages :confused:

Actually, every government gives people stuff all the time. That's part of government's function.

and it comes out of my pocket. im not paying for a homeless person's liver transplant. I'm an engineer, therefore i'm more important and I may need that liver.

[DBoons Ghost]

This is one of the most out of context discussions I have seen that is based on stats pulled from an article. It was a great article and disturbing but well explained.

I suggest everyone read it so that the stats remain in context of the article.

[Reaganista]

black people need reparations

[beso negro]

so do the irish :angry:

[BridgeToSolace]

it's how I learned several programming languages :confused:

Learning several programming languages = adequate, quality education?

and it comes out of my pocket. im not paying for a homeless person's liver transplant. I'm an engineer, therefore i'm more important and I may need that liver.

Get over yourself. Being payed more doesn't make you necessarily worth more :thumb:

[Der Übermensch]

so do the Armenians...
This can go on for awhile...

But DBoon, good point. I probably should have seen if I could find it online and posted a link :-\

I'll get on that.

Edit: http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?source=most_commented&source=most_commented&source=most_commented&source=most_commented&story_id=11326407&intent=readBottom&intent=readBottom&intent=postTop&intent=postTop&intent=readBottom

Does that work for everyone?

[beso negro]

Learning several programming languages = adequate, quality education?

someone who teaches himself programming through books is just as useful as someone who goes to college to study it. trust me.

Get over yourself. Being payed more doesn't make you necessarily worth more

what do homeless people do for you?

[BridgeToSolace]

someone who teaches himself programming through books is just as useful as someone who goes to college to study it. trust me.

I don't doubt you.

I do doubt, however, that a local library can ever take the place of a good education.

what do homeless people do for you?

I believe the question should be "What do I do for homeless people?"

Homeless people remind me that I never ever wanna be poor.

And for that matter, what have YOU ever done for me?

[Der Übermensch]

what do homeless people do for you?
Cheap blowjobs for crack money?

[DBoons Ghost]

I'm curious if these studies broke down race within the caucasian races how much different would the results be?

I was curious about this when I read it and I am still.

If the African American is measured this way, do the same statisitics exist for Irish Americans? Italian Americans? Albanians or Serbians or any of the other European nations?

How far from the statistics for African Americans would they really be?

With black folks making up between 12% and 14% of the population, and maybe 10% of those being African Americans who've been in this country more then 4 generations, possibly the desecendants of slaves, how can we tell if any of this actually applies to anything more then an issue within the black community?

I'm not going to walk down the "my black friends" road, but this is as much about class as it is about race. I identify with a lot of the struggles within the black community because I lived in a ghetto, and that mentality is unlike any other. It's class.

However, black folks who grow up in difficult environments due to their parents mistakes often carry that around, and due to society, peer pressure and influence from their peers, are led to believe it's racisim which led them to their situation. It creates paranoia and insecurity. It leads young black men to believe the government is to blame for their situaiton and there is no way out. Often times, that is simply not true, but a black man is insecure around his white friends. His black friends criticize. Acceptance in the black community is far removed from white society's same boundaries.

Now, I ask, since white folks are known racists, why has no one discussed the fact that black racism against whites, and maybe rightly so, is defeating their own purpose?

[mph4ever]

this sounds very much like a class issue. everything that has been mentioned as the challenges faced in the process of integration is identical to those faced if you remove race from the equation.

here, the class divide is slowly being closed for those who want to particpate. ireland has made massive investment in job creation, housing, education and health.

job creation initiatives over the past 30 years have meant ireland has had an economy that has enabled people, as high as 95%+ of the working population, to be employed. this gave everybody with the will to work, the opportunity to work if they wanted to. those that didn't got left behind. we also have a minimum wage of $13. no matter what the job, you must be paid this by your employer as long as you are over 18 and have two years experience. needless to say that most people gain experience by working whilst at college or when they drop out of school at 16. so, there are very few here over the age of 18 and not earning a minimum of $13 per hour. there is legislation in place that enforces this.

housing developers have been forced, by government legislation, to provide 20% of all housing projects, as a social house or an affordable house. social housing is where builder must sell the house to the housing authority, a state body, with no profit i.e. there is no developer making money, this constitutes 5% of all new floor space in ireland and the government uses these houses to provide shelter for all sorts of people, immigrants, homeless, unmarried parents etc. its all means tested. affordable houses, 15% od all floor space, are houses that are sold off by the local housing authority at a price that low income people can afford. i have a friend who got a house worth €600k for €250k. but the real trick with this that fact that the 20% of floor space must be integrated with the other 80% i.e. they are intergated as part of the community. people from different classes living alongside one another.

education, third level anyway, was something that was for the elite 25 to 30 years ago. if was a very small percentage that went even though lots had the qualifications, few had the means. obviously with high rates of employment and also with government support, education has become much more accessible. the educated elite are no longer from the upper class, anyone can make it if they put in the effort.

our health system sucked so they took it out of the public sector style management and appointed an "executive", some of whom were taken from private industry, to try and run health as a business. its a painful process but it is improving all the time. waiting lists are being reduced, quality is being improved, it has a ways to go but they are laying some good foundations. inevitably, the media sensationalise things when they go wrong and this gives it a bad reputation but from personal experience with my close family the systme is getting better

most of the money that ireland has managed to find its feet with has been american corporation money. they came here because the irish are intelligent, could speak english, were getting access to better education and CHEAP. over a 10 to 15 year period conditions improved and salaries increased and ireland has started to level out a little. it is losing some of the corporations investment but for every big one we lose there are others either starting up or coming in to provide alternate employment opportunities. those that want to get ahead can and do, those that don't, still benefit from the infrastructure.

now, once again, i hear you saying, nice story mph4ever, but not really that relevent. and to a certain extent you'd be right. however, if i can draw your attention to a little thing. the investment ireland got was american and the overriding reason was because we are cheap. for as long as the american corporations and the government they support see the exploitation of cheap employment as a means to better operating profits then they can have no expectation that the class divisions that exist will ever be solved. as long as they see the bottom line and forget their people then it will never be solved. china is getting massive investment, so too iraq, the phillipines etc. but yet the ghettos still exist, the fall out from katrina is still very evident, the drug abuse issues continue to rise and the already significant class divide is getting wider.

strange thing about class issues is that, in america, you can be any colour , black, brown, yellow, green and be lower class, only whitey gets to be upperclass and immune to the problems their vast wealth causes and continues to divert investment from solving.

[Smokey D]

you would be surprised

I suppose some especially gifted and dedicated people might be able to convert reading time at a library into the equivalent of a good education but I thought the idea was to lift the whole community, insofar as that's possible, out of poverty. I doubt that the average white person without access to good schooling and maybe college would be able to do it either.

[Jude]

The idea that you can sit in a library and read all day and you'll be as good as if you were college educated is retarded. Not least because nobody is going to accept your declaration of having read every book in the library as a valid bachelor's degree.

[Iskandar]

it's how I learned several programming languages :confused:Yeah, and your PhD. as well?
and it comes out of my pocket. im not paying for a homeless person's liver transplant. I'm an engineer, therefore i'm more important and I may need that liver.You actually think certain people are worth more than others. You silly right-winger.

Consider that you could have been that homeless person in different circumstances.

[mph4ever]

so do the irish :angry:


yeah, when can they have their trees back :naughty:

[Ando!]

1. Parents need to be less terrible
2. We need to actually start investing in our public schools.

Again, I would like to note that from my own experience (which is admittedly less extensive and mathematical than the study you posted) the real issue is class. The white kids who have accepted "all or nothing" mentality are generally just as dumb as the black ones. The majority of that culture happens to be black, but that's mostly for historical reasons I imagine.

[Smokey D]

Yeah, and your PhD. as well?
You actually think certain people are worth more than others. You silly right-winger.

While we're on the topic of libraries not being a substitute for an education, I think it's important to remember bass negro thinks carrots can cure cancer.

[McP3000]

You actually think certain people are worth more than others. You silly right-winger.

Consider that you could have been that homeless person in different circumstances.
i resent the fact that you make the assumption that such selfish behavior is related to right-wing philosophy.

[Charlie Daniels]

Yeah, and your PhD. as well?
You actually think certain people are worth more than others. You silly right-winger.

Consider that you could have been that homeless person in different circumstances.

Well, just because something once had the potential to be valueble doesn't make them valuble if they never realise that potential.

And certain people are definetly worth more than others. :-S

[beso negro]

Yeah, and your PhD. as well?

you don't need a phd to be useful


You actually think certain people are worth more than others. You silly right-winger.

why not?

say two people need a liver transplant, but you only have 1 liver. who do you give it to? the homeless alcoholic or the scientist?

Consider that you could have been that homeless person in different circumstances.

if I was lazy sure

I thought the idea was to lift the whole community, insofar as that's possible, out of poverty.

lol why would we want to do that? we couldn't survive without the poor.

[Smokey D]

lol why would we want to do that? we couldn't survive without the poor.

Possibly. But we can mitigate the extremity of poverty and still have enough poor people to grease the wheels.

But nice going in showing why a library based education is insufficient. You have no sense of nuance.

[beso negro]

i never said a library is a great substitute for universities. for me, I would have a hard time understanding some math and physics if I just read them out of a book. nevertheless, the library is an alternative.

I just don't get why people think that if a poor kid doesn't go to college it's the government's fault or even society's. Universities LOVE minorities. If you're a kid from the projects who works hard in highschool and gets good grades and wants to go to college, universities will give you a full ride. Atleast the first two years anyways. Plus those types of kids are exactly what so many scholarships are aimed at. Heck I paid nothing my first year of college and i'm not that poor, though my dad did cheat on the FAFSA to make it look that way :p.

If a poor kid doesn't want to go to college and thinks education is lame then **** him. he's not likely to contribute to society.

[Smokey D]

i never said a library is a great substitute for universities. for me, I would have a hard time understanding some math and physics if I just read them out of a book. nevertheless, the library is an alternative.

It's not a substitute for high school. It's ancillary.

I just don't get why people think that if a poor kid doesn't go to college it's the government's fault or even society's. Universities LOVE minorities. If you're a kid from the projects who works hard in highschool and gets good grades and wants to go to college, universities will give you a full ride. Atleast the first two years anyways. Plus those types of kids are exactly what so many scholarships are aimed at. Heck I paid nothing my first year of college and i'm not that poor, though my dad did cheat on the FAFSA to make it look that way

Well, yes there are lots of minority kids at university. But a) getting a university degree doesn' guarantee getting rich b) people who do get rich tend to move out of the ghetto, so the wealth doesn't trickle down. I don't think anyone is saying that universities and such don't try and help minorities but it is too little, too late and at teh wrong end of the process.

If a poor kid doesn't want to go to college and thinks education is lame then **** him. he's not likely to contribute to society.

If that's the problem, then the obvious goal should be to change the attitude.

[Ando!]

an attitude best changed by parents

[Volumnius Flush]

say two people need a liver transplant, but you only have 1 liver. who do you give it to? the homeless alcoholic or the scientist?

I think that you are too pleased with yourself. Whatever it is you did, it gave you an ego.

I was once homeless and I can say the fact the man is homeless is completely irrelevant in this situation. The key point to note here is that he is an alcoholic who has abused his liver while the scientist has presumably done nothing to deserve his misfortune. The choice is obvious: If you did something to yourself you don't deserve what should be given to someone who did nothing to deserve what fate has given them. Don't confuse the issue by insinuating that because he is homeless he is any less of a person than the scientist. I can figure which one you are.

[beso negro]

it doesn't matter. say both the homeless guy and the scientist are alcoholics. the answer is still obvious.

Don't confuse the issue by insinuating that because he is homeless he is any less of a person than the scientist. I can figure which one you are.

the homeless guy isn't any less of man compared to the scientist. but to society the hobo is useless.

[Volumnius Flush]

it doesn't matter. say both the homeless guy and the scientist are alcoholics. the answer is still obvious.



the homeless guy isn't any less of man compared to the scientist. but to society the hobo is useless.

You're making the mistake of jumping to conclusions.

[monkeysonmars.]

yeah he could be a homeless bank manager

[Volumnius Flush]

yeah he could be a homeless bank manager

I was homeless and look at all I have to offer the planet!

[Der Übermensch]

I was homeless and look at all I have to offer the planet!

Case in point...:chug:

[beso negro]

I was homeless and look at all I have to offer the planet!

all thanks to your local library am i right

[gregulus]

Case in point...:chug:

HERE WE GO!

[EinzingerIsGod]

The key point to note here is that he is an alcoholic who has abused his liver while the scientist has presumably done nothing to deserve his misfortune.

Because there has never been an alcoholic scientist...

[Volumnius Flush]

Case in point...:chug:

Haha you are sooooooo funnyyyy :wave::rolleyes:

Because there has never been an alcoholic scientist...

No because beso did not specify the scientist was alcoholic. And if he was neither one of them deserve the liver. Give it to someone who has presumably done nothing to deserve their fate/misfortune.

Never heard the story of the alcoholic who received a new liver and within a short time after the procedure he had already destroyed his new liver? It happens and they can't be trusted with new livers until there is a surplus and/or a sufficient supply to cover the liver demand.

[lfantwister]

It happens and they can't be trusted with new livers
this seems wrong... the mistakes of a few who fell back on old habits now serve to punish the whole group?
sorry didnt red the thread have no idea wht youre talking about

[Der Übermensch]

Haha you are sooooooo funnyyyy :wave::rolleyes:

I'm a veritable fount of wit.

[ncnxonattronn]

black people are lazy

give them all your money i don't care

i just choose to work for myself and im not going to spare money to them because they are too lazy to work.

[1338 h4x0r]

They are set in their ways. They don't want out of their poverty. It is easier to accept a check and do nothing than to work hard and make something.

No offense to anyone. I am on welfare myself.

Welfare makes a fairly small percentage of both federal and state budgets countrywide (~2-3%?), so don't feel too ashamed.

[1338 h4x0r]

i never said a library is a great substitute for universities. for me, I would have a hard time understanding some math and physics if I just read them out of a book. nevertheless, the library is an alternative.


I'm not going to use discretion, so I won't say this is universal, but I have an absolutely terrible time learning almost anything in a formal setting. The only reason I get good grades at all is because I knew about the subject matter in many of my classes before I came in. I'm worried about transferring to a university, where there will be less and less things I already know, so of course I am reading about a lot of math related to bioinformatics. Graph theory, probability and OR techniques are useful in this field, which fortunately happen to be ones I like a lot.

Yes, I think it's possible to learn a lot in a library. Almost nothing in my formal academic experience had so much impact on me as two books by Carl Sagan I read in middle school. Even if there is no teacher there, you can check your progress both by answer keys in many texts and, of course, with the Internet. planetmath.org is a hell of a place. Many other fora exist for all kinds of subjects, and are full of really qualified people.

[Volumnius Flush]

Welfare makes a fairly small percentage of both federal and state budgets countrywide (~2-3%?), so don't feel too ashamed.

No, I am pretty sure entitlements account for 20% of the federal budget.

[1338 h4x0r]

No, I am pretty sure entitlements account for 20% of the federal budget.

See, when you get your information from articles that cite their sources and weren't written by wingnuts who make things up, you get more reliable data

http://www.anitra.net/homelessness/columns/anitra/eightmyths.html

[Der Übermensch]

No, I am pretty sure entitlements account for 20% of the federal budget.
If you include Social Security, I believe so. But a lot more than just welfare.

[1338 h4x0r]

Yeah I know, God forbid governments levy taxes for the common good like they did back in Sumer.

[Iskandar]

The only good tax is no tax at all!

[sweboy]

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."

- Albert Einstein

[Illmatic]

Ipeople who do get rich tend to move out of the ghetto, so the wealth doesn't trickle down.

thank you

everyone loves the people who work hard and get out of the ghetto, but the fact that so few of these people try to give back to where they grew up is a big part of the problem in my opinion.

[1338 h4x0r]

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."

- Albert Einstein

I wonder if he meant the forms or the idea of levying an income tax itself

[Iskandar]

i resent the fact that you make the assumption that such selfish behavior is related to right-wing philosophy.But don't a ton of right-wingers think that way? They look at society from a viewpoint of Social Darwinism.

I wonder if he meant the forms or the idea of levying an income tax itselfProbably the hassle and bureaucracy associated with taxation. Einstein was socialist-leaning, so I seriously doubt he was opposed to taxation in general.