Recording Help

[CDelle]

So, a few times a month my buddy (guitar player) and I get together and jam. We usually record using a Delta 44, a mic placed near his amp and Audacity. It picks up his guitar pretty well and you can still hear me pretty good, though obviously the quality isn't that great.

I'm looking to improve our recording setup and I'm wondering what the best way to go about that would be. I'm thinking I should get a few more mics and mic up my kit, and somehow plug him directly into the Delta 44, then use some iso phones and pump the guitar through them so I can record the drums w/o the guitar.

Anyone have any suggestions? Do I need a separate mixer to plug the drum mics into? Any help would me much appreciated.

[dairyairman]

i think what you want to do can be done, but you probably will need to get a mixer of some kind. i use audacity to record my drums. i can record a drum track while listening to an already recorded music track from audacity, but i only use one mic. my computer has a regular sound card with only one input, so like you i'm kind of stuck there. a mixer would be a solution because then you could put multiple mics on the drums and feed the mixer output into the single sound card input. the only thing is, you wouldn't be able to tweak the individual drum sounds once they're in audacity because you'll only have a single mixed drum track to play with. you can get multi mic input sound cards or other multi-mic to pc devices, but then you're starting to get into some $$$. i'm not sure those would work with audacity anyway.

[CDelle]

i think what you want to do can be done, but you probably will need to get a mixer of some kind. i use audacity to record my drums. i can record a drum track while listening to an already recorded music track from audacity, but i only use one mic. my computer has a regular sound card with only one input, so like you i'm kind of stuck there. a mixer would be a solution because then you could put multiple mics on the drums and feed the mixer output into the single sound card input. the only thing is, you wouldn't be able to tweak the individual drum sounds once they're in audacity because you'll only have a single mixed drum track to play with. you can get multi mic input sound cards or other multi-mic to pc devices, but then you're starting to get into some $$$. i'm not sure those would work with audacity anyway.

Well I already have a Delta 44 which has 4 inputs and 4 outputs, so I guess if I use 3 drum mics and then the last input for the guitar I should be okay, right? But will it sound okay with just 3 drum mics? How should I set them up? BTW we're recording in a small room with bare walls... I've been thinking of getting some eggcrates/soundproofing but just haven't done it yet. I wonder if I'll need to once I get some good mics.

[Chippy569]

you can't plug a mic straight into your delta44, as far as i can tell. the d44 does not have microphone preamps (i'm reading the manual). so to safely run a mic to your d44, you either need a standalone preamp, a mic with a preamp built in, or some other piece of gear with a mic preamp (like a mixer).


If i were you, I'd go pick up a little mixer like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-1202VLZ3-Compact-Mixer-120V-?sku=630131

now you plug all your mics/the guitar into the channels on the mixer. if you look on the back of the mixer, there's a thing called "channel insert." This is a little breakout that goes after the mic pre and before the eq/rest of the mixer functions. Use a Y-cable like this one:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Hosa-Stereo-14-Phone-to-2-Mono-14-Phone-Insert-Cable?sku=333030
the TRS end goes on that insert, the tip end of the Y goes onto the D44's "input" and the sleeve end of the Y goes to the "output". Something like that should work easily, plus you have a full mixer for monitoring purposes too.



eggcrates won't do anything for your room (or any room), and what you're referring to as "soundproofing" isn't actually soundproofing at all, but more like room tuning.


as for three mics, kick and L/R overheads is a very popular setup.

[CDelle]

Hey thanks for the advice Chippy. I'm a bit confused about the channel insert... I'm not really sure what you're saying. Keep in mind I'm pretty new to recording and I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge. Can you explain a little more, or point me somewhere that has some more info? Thanks!

[Motleyguy]

If you purchase a mixer, on the back panel of it, there will be a series of outputs (one per channel) called "channel insert sends", or sometimes just "insert sends". They are coupled with a set of inputs called "Channel insert returns". In the wiring and electronics of the channel strip on the mixer, these come after the mic pre amp, but before the EQ or Aux Sends etc.

[Chippy569]

http://www.homerecording.com and http://www.homerecording.com/bbs will be very friendly to you.

some other good posts/threads on this site:
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538376
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=552182
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=550532
definitely: http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=532546

with search not working right, that's all i could find. if you still have questions, find me on AIM, my screen name is Chippy569.

[Chippy569]

since this thread has so many views, just thought i'd bump for a significant edit to the above post.

[CDelle]

Hey Chippy, thanks again for all the info. I may just hit you up on AIM later this weekend. I'm planning on purchasing some mics and a mixer hopefully this weekend (I have the cash, just don't know if I have enough time to figure out exactly what I want and then go get it).

[faithinfire]

if u use audacity, why would you record the guitar and drums at the same time. why dont u record one at a time.

thisd way u can mic the kick ,the snare, and LR overheads (or XY, i like that better)

if u do use three mics though, id def mic the snare and kick and have one overheard. DEF mic the snare and kick always.

[Seafroggys]

having an overhead (rather, if its just one mic, it'd be a room mic) is more important than just having snare and bass miked. Trust me.

[Motleyguy]

If you're doing a stereo pair of overheads, ORTF would be a better choice than coincident (XY as it is often called). ORTF is the mics at a 110 degree angle with the capsules 7 inches apart.

[Seafroggys]

overheads by themselves have a terrible time of capturing the bass drum. If you have only one mic, use a room mic. If you have two, have one room, one overhead.

[Motleyguy]

I like to place 2 a couple feet in front of the kit, so I suppose those would technically be room mics. That's if I only have two though. One in front and one OH seems like a phase nightmare.

[Seafroggys]

When I did the two mic setup, I had the OH a typical low height, a couple feet off the drums, and the front mic (I call it a room mic but its not technically a room mic) 3x the distance ;)

[Motleyguy]

Good call.

[faithinfire]

coincident is not XY. coincident is like, one on the left side of the kit pointing in a little, anda mirror mic on the other side.

XY is having them at about a 45 degree angle, in the center of the kit, left mic picking up the ride side of the kit, right mic picking up the left side of the kit.

i find that gives a great stero sound on guitars, and pretty good way of micing up drum overheads.

[fishbulb]

I just now found out how important a room mic is and it surprisingly helps a lot with the kick sound more than anything else (at least in my experiences).

[Seafroggys]

the last audio you posted everything sounded too up front and crisp,as if you close miked everything, including cymbals.

Room mics are only useful in a good room, and even then you may not need them. I can get a half-*** bass drum sound no problem that's doable, but I can also get a kickass bass drum sound with a bit of work (internal miking + some light muffling on reso head), all with just a single AKG D112. No room mic, and my overheads pick up a tiny bit of slap.

Now if I had a good room, I might as well have a nice room mic. And I may not even end up using it in the mix, or just very little, because I like the sound I have already.

[Motleyguy]

coincident is not XY. coincident is like, one on the left side of the kit pointing in a little, anda mirror mic on the other side.

XY is having them at about a 45 degree angle, in the center of the kit, left mic picking up the ride side of the kit, right mic picking up the left side of the kit.

i find that gives a great stero sound on guitars, and pretty good way of micing up drum overheads.

Wow, whoever taught or told you that is very misinformed. Coincident is also known as XY, and it is two mics, one capsule above the other with absolutely no space between them at a 90 degree angle facing the sound source.

http://www.tape.com/resource/stereo_microphone_techniques.html

Scroll down on that link a little bit. It's also a good resource for stereo techniques, which are always good.

Room mics are only useful in a good room, and even then you may not need them. I can get a half-*** bass drum sound no problem that's doable, but I can also get a kickass bass drum sound with a bit of work (internal miking + some light muffling on reso head), all with just a single AKG D112. No room mic, and my overheads pick up a tiny bit of slap.

A mic just outside the reso head (along with an internal mic) also adds a nice touch to the kick sound, adds a touch of naturally occuring reverb. I like a Sennheiser MD421 personally.

One mic on the far left, and one mic on the far right is called a spaced pair, and when you do that you need to be using the 3 to 1 rule.

[Harrow]

Whenever I have recorded my drums in a studio the overheads have always been set up in the XY manner that you were talking about. I'm not sure if this is the "best" way to set up overheads for a drum kit, but I really liked the way the mix came out.

[Motleyguy]

Whenever I have recorded my drums in a studio the overheads have always been set up in the XY manner that you were talking about. I'm not sure if this is the "best" way to set up overheads for a drum kit, but I really liked the way the mix came out.

The XY (Coincident) I'm talking about, or the XY (Spaced Pair).
Generally Spaced Pair isn't always the best. It can provide too many phase issues unless it's specifically placed, and the stereo image produced can often be too wide. I prefer an ORTF technique, which is the mics crossed, with 7" between the capsules at a 110 degree angle. Of course when put over a drum kit, the capsules are pointing down.

[Seafroggys]

I always use spaced pair for my OHs, but I hard pan them.

[Motleyguy]

hmmm, not really a big fan of spaced pair... or hard panning. Too wide of a stereo image. It always sounds a bit unrealistic to me.

[Seafroggys]

The only time its unrealistic is if you're listening to headphones.

And the music I listen to were from the days of creative stereo panning. So I like things wide.

[fishbulb]

I definitely enjoy a great stereo image as well.

Crap, that reminds me that i didn't take pictures of my microphone setup yet.

[Motleyguy]

you can still be creative in your panning without having to pan hard left or right. I can still hear an unrealistic stereo image in a decent pair of speakers or monitors as well.

[Seafroggys]

The Beatles had their mixes really weird....drums totally panned hard left or right, etc. etc. Crazy stuff that believe it or not, actually sounds great! I wouldn't do that, though.

[Motleyguy]

Yeah, some of the Beatles stuff is mixed in insane ways. Like all the drums hard left or right. George Harrison and those guys were nuts when it came to panning, and mixing.

[Seafroggys]

Actually, to be honest, The Beatles rarely attended the stereo mixing sessions, they always participated in the mono mixing sessions.

[Motleyguy]

haha, admittedly, I am not so much of a Beatles fan. Like a few songs, but generally, I tend to completely overlook them. Not really my style, but that is interesting.

[Seafroggys]

As everybody well knows, I am a huge Beatles fan, and know everything about them!

When they cut their first album in 1963, mono was still the most popular format at the time. It was considered a more important mix. Also considering FM radio did not exist in any commercial capacity.

It wasn't until 1968-ish where FM stations started rising up and mono records were beginning to be discontinued. That next year The Beatles recorded their last album. So yeah, mono was fairly significant during their time.

[Motleyguy]

Indeed. I mix alot on mono anyways. At the very least I do alot of referencing of my mix in mono. Makes it really easy to hear of phase issues.

[Seafroggys]

My recording instructor said to mix the entire song in mono, then do panning last, then if any adjustments need to be needed. That way you have the clearest, cleanest recording possible.

[Motleyguy]

A good to pan some things, like the hi hat for example, is in mono. Move the pot around until you hear it slide into place. You can tell when it's where it should be too. I like to set static volume levels and pans before I do anything else. Then usually some EQ and compression to get my sounds. Add my effects, and then get on to actual mixing of the levels.

[The Chemist]

I use A-B on overheads.

[Motleyguy]

A-b?

[The Chemist]

yeah.

3 omnis, spaced 5 feet apart pointed at drum set.

Only works in big rooms.

[Motleyguy]

Hmmmm, interesting. Don't think I've heard of that one before. Never used it at least.

[The Chemist]

It's actually an Orchestral Technique.

[Motleyguy]

Hmmm. Cool. Very interesting. And use it for OH's?

[The Chemist]

Well, mainly as the Room/Overheads in one, so it creates a big space for the drums to occupy.

[Motleyguy]

Hmmmm, cool.

[faithinfire]

chemnist - isnt that called a dura-tree or some **** like that.

u set the mics up in a triangle format (like a "T")

[The Chemist]

A Decca Tree is 3 omnis, in a T shape (2meters by 1.5meters) about 8-12 feet over the head of the conductor.