Universally Speaking

[Bread and Faxes]

Ok, so me and my friend and fellow user J Lawl were talking a few days ago while at denny's and we got into the conversation of The Universe. And it got deeper into the Atom Smasher somewhere in Europe. Possibly Sweden? But anyway, he said that later this year they are supposed to be conducting an experiment to create a Black Hole. Which in some cases could mean, that we can create another entire universe.

Apparently the Hubble Telescope has seen the Fringes of the universe and the universe is supposed to work by a sequence of Big Bang's. That once the universe has stretched as much as it possibly could, it would snap back and compress into a much smaller, denser mass. Which is also interesting.

So, back to the main topic.

If we were able to create a Black Hole, wouldn't this in theory destroy our world and eventually grow into a much larger Black Hole and do the same to other universal structures? And it would even question our theories on god. It could put it to rest, or maybe even validate it further?

Because if we can create a small universe. Who's saying that we aren't at the hands of someone else's creation in a similar matter?

So, let's discuss this, and see what everyone knows. Because I find this very interesting.

[sweboy]

Yeah, I don't think anyone on this forum has enough knowledge to say anything about this.

[Bread and Faxes]

That did cross my mind. But me and J Lawl had enough input to actually make a legit conversation about this, so It may be somewhat possible?

[BridgeToSolace]

That black holes we'll be creating aren't in existence long enough to become any sort of threat.

So say the scientists at least...

[Surtr]

Its in the Switzerland - France border area-ish.

And basically Angels & Demons lol.

[Bread and Faxes]

How do you take a Black Hole out of existence?

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

how awesome would it be if we had a small black hole just so we could feed our garbage into it and then send it flying off into space so it would turn into a garbage-people universe?

[Bread and Faxes]

A black hole pulls all matter into its extreme gravitational pull :p

[Grand Admiral Exodus]

ill show you a black hoel

[BassRevelation1029]

Yeah, I don't think anyone on this forum has enough knowledge to say anything about this.

where's ashman?

[Grand Admiral Exodus]

thatd be awesome if we made a black whole that sucked us in and we went into this like willie wonka tunnel scene voyage through space time and dimension all 6 billion of us

or thatd be a cool way to go out as a race if we all perished in a black hole because its a little cooler than dying off and going extinct at least we can collectively say as a species that we swallowed ourselves because thats how we go out.

[Surtr]

Yeah Ashman can definitely answer all this, but I also haven't seen him in a while.

[Bread and Faxes]

A black hole has enough strength to rip you apart while pulling you in. It probably would do that even if you didn't resist.

Also, I doubt this is a question that anyone can answer. It's very hard to say if anything like this is true.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

A black hole pulls all matter into its extreme gravitational pull :p

yeah but if you put it in an invincible box it would be ok :rolleyes:.

[Bread and Faxes]

yeah but if you put it in an invincible box it would be ok :rolleyes:.

Definitely!

[spitfirejunky]

ashman, maybe even RockAndRoll can provide some insight.

[iliketoplaydrums10111]

The hubble hasn't seen the fringes of the universe, hasn't it even gotten out of our galaxy?

But it's basically if you think the univerise expands indefinetly or it stops at the end if it's confined by somthing and comes crashing back

some big questions

[BridgeToSolace]

How do you take a Black Hole out of existence?

The question is, rather, "How do you keep a black hole in existence?"

The black holes that are created are not stable.

[Bread and Faxes]

Wait, so we've created them before?

[iliketoplaydrums10111]

i think he's talking about in space when created

[Bread and Faxes]

Oh ok. I thought he was talking about our previous attempts if any.

[spitfirejunky]

They're not trying to create a black hole though. They just stated some hilariously low probability that it may form in the process of the experiment.

[Bread and Faxes]

I see, well...What is their goal?

[Prince of Darkness]

yeah, so i just came back from a lecture by Stephen Hawking, Michael Griffin (Administrator of NASA), David Gross and George Smoot. it was beyond interesting. They didn't go into much detail, but Gross, Smoot and Hawking touched on subjects like string theory and black holes.

[iliketoplaydrums10111]

well what did they say

[Bread and Faxes]

yes, please tell us.

[Eliminator]

yeah, so i just came back from a lecture by Stephen Hawking, Michael Griffin (Administrator of NASA), David Gross and George Smoot. it was beyond interesting. They didn't go into much detail, but Gross, Smoot and Hawking touched on subjects like string theory and black holes.
wow string theory and black holes that sure is fascinating

[Prince of Darkness]

no, seriously. they didn't go into any detail. Smoot told us about how he mapped the universe; Gross' speech was the best, imo. He talked about the questions that need to be asked. The questions are really out there. Things like, What are the superstrings made of? and things of the sort. Hawking was very brief and didn't really touch any really interesting topics. Michael Griffin just did what a head of NASA would do: Tell us about what they're up to! which is pretty cool.

But I'm tired now and this probably isn't making much sense. I'll elaborate a bit tomorrow.

[Volumnius Flush]

Which black hole are we talking about? I thought we all had a black hole.

[Surtr]

Haha what?

Basically its supposed that these two Atoms could smash into one another with such a force that it could break them into tons of tiny tiny pieces beyond its Protons, Neutrons and Electrons and still further than that. And that's supposed to create possibly a very small black hole for all of several nanoseconds or so.

This black hole won't be even a 2ft x 2ft, assuming it even does happen, and it'll be gone before anyone could see it. Now obviously using extremely powerful high speed camera's they'll be able to see it all go down, again assuming it does.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

in that time, will everything in a certain radius feel an massive gravitational pull? or will it have all the gravity of like 2 atoms?

[Bread and Faxes]

That would be incredible though.

[Aaron]

That black holes we'll be creating aren't in existence long enough to become any sort of threat.

So say the scientists at least...
^ Yup. Not enough energy to sustain it.

[Surtr]

Yeah, because its only two atoms crashing anyways. The energy to make a proper black hole keep in mind "hypothetically" comes from a sun imploding or whatever. And that's a bit more than two atoms.

[Bread and Faxes]

I heard that Atom Smasher is MASSIVE though.

[Aaron]

Bigger than a sun?

[Bread and Faxes]

It's possible.

[BridgeToSolace]

I heard that Atom Smasher is MASSIVE though.

The device is large, the things being smashed are not.

The mass used to create the black hole is minimal, though. You need massive...mass...to actually create a sustainable wormhole.

Although honestly my knowledge on the subject is based on wikipedia and ambient knowledge that I have no good source for.

[Bread and Faxes]

I read a lot of things and was taught in school. But apparently if we can create a wormhole, we can go to other times?

[Chu]

That black holes we'll be creating aren't in existence long enough to become any sort of threat.

So say the scientists at least...
This.

The Black Holes they will be creating, exist for nano seconds.

Edit: There is a black hole in the centre of the Milky Way for any who is interested, you can 'see' parts of it with the naked eye, if the sky is clear enough. Just look for the section that is almost entirely empty.

[Bread and Faxes]

This.

The Black Holes they will be creating, exist for nano seconds.

See, I was never told this.

[gregulus]

Stop saying that they're "smashing atoms together." What they're working with are hardly atoms, but the elementary particles that essentially make up everything we know of, including atoms.

Secondly, the possibilities of machines like the LHC are immense. Not only will scientists potentially be able to prove the existence of particles like the Higgs Boson, which is the ONLY particle predicted by the Standard Model that has yet to be found, it could yield very important results in regards towards a Grand Unification Theory, in which the Standard Model could be somehow linked with Gravity. To clarify, the Standard Model explains 3 of the 4 fundamental forces in the universe; electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force. Modern physics has yet to be able to tie gravity in with these other forces in a unifying way. The LHC could change this. The LHC could also produce interesting results as far as String Theory is concerned. For instance, it could potentially determine whether or not the extra dimensions required by String Theory actually exist, how massless particles end up combining to make particles with mass, etc.

As far as the micro black holes are concerned, the ability to do this with the LHC is questionable, first and foremost. Even if the creation of these micro black holes is possible, Hawking Radiation states that they with ultimately collapse in on themselves in a fraction of a second. You have nothing to worry about.

Finding information on such issues is not hard to do. I suggest you do some research before getting all bent out of shape.

[Aaron]

Donnie Darko isn't a good teacher, Bread and Faxes.

In seriousness though, if your idea was correct then the universe would have imploded on itself eons ago. The energy and mass required is that large that it's highly rare for the situation to be correct for it to occurr, and obviously is too large for us to create on an visually large level or extended duration. Put it this way; it's like expecting that a singular lit match will power a 18-wheeler for any duration or distance.

[Bread and Faxes]

Donnie Darko isn't a good teacher, Bread and Faxes.

In seriousness though, if your idea was correct then the universe would have imploded on itself eons ago. The energy and mass required is that large that it's highly rare for the situation to be correct for it to occurr, and obviously is too large for us to create on an visually large level or extended duration. Put it this way; it's like expecting that a singular lit match will power a 18-wheeler for any duration or distance.

I'm not listening to Jake Gylanhal's logic. This is something I read.

[Aaron]

Was it an Isaac Asimov novel?

[Bread and Faxes]

Was it an Isaac Asimov novel?

I can't remember lol

[gregulus]

Donnie Darko isn't a good teacher, Bread and Faxes.

In seriousness though, if your idea was correct then the universe would have imploded on itself eons ago. The energy and mass required is that large that it's highly rare for the situation to be correct for it to occurr, and obviously is too large for us to create on an visually large level or extended duration. Put it this way; it's like expecting that a singular lit match will power a 18-wheeler for any duration or distance.
The energy limitations of the LHC are not sufficient to create the micro black holes, but according to some extensions of the Standard Model, the existence of extra spatial dimensions could make the creation possible. I don't know enough about modern physics to really comment on whether these other ideas are better than the current standard model or not.

But really, why are we focusing on this single, minute aspect of the LHC, when there are much more practical possibilities that hold much greater benefit for the advancement of modern physics.


As if the mere idea of the LHC isn't impressive enough. Particles traveling at 99.9999999% the speed of light, protons traveling around the machine in something like 90 microseconds. It's incredibly cool. Something else about it that's cool, but doesn't really stand up to the aforementioned things, is that the tubes of the LHC are cooled with Liquid Helium to 2°K.

[ringworm]

Stop saying that they're "smashing atoms together." What they're working with are hardly atoms, but the elementary particles that essentially make up everything we know of, including atoms.
wurd


TS

there was a thread about this awhile back, search isnt working for me…

it had tons of info

[Chu]

My brother is an engineer for the Australian synchrotron, not very relevant to this thread, I guess, but some people might be interested in the device:
http://www.synchrotron.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=95

Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron

Although, I don't actually know what he does there, gergulus' post just reminded me of my brother, therefore he is my primary audience in regards to this, lol

[Aaron]

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/9910333

[J Lawl]

See, I was never told this.

Totally said that.

That's why the scientists aren't really worried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

[BridgeToSolace]

I read a lot of things and was taught in school. But apparently if we can create a wormhole, we can go to other times?

A wormhole could allow time travel.[3] This could be accomplished by accelerating one end of the wormhole to a high velocity relative to the other, and then sometime later bringing it back; relativistic time dilation would result in the accelerated wormhole mouth aging less than the stationary one as seen by an external observer, similar to what is seen in the twin paradox. However, time connects differently through the wormhole than outside it, so that synchronized clocks at each mouth will remain synchronized to someone traveling through the wormhole itself, no matter how the mouths move around.

You couldn't travel to any time you wanted, though. Just back to the time the non-accelerated wormhole mouth was opened. And since you have to open it in the first place, it's extremely limited.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

What would the "ends" of a wormhole be made of?

[Aaron]

Fairy-dust.

[BridgeToSolace]

What would the "ends" of a wormhole be made of?

Wormholes aren't actually made of anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worm3.jpg

They are, rather, a hole in space that connects two points. You would hold them open with exotic matter, although I'm still not sure how we'd form the wormhole or why exotic matter keeps them open.

I've been reading about random physics **** for the past hour. God bless wikipedia.

Flyby anomaly, anyone?

[RockStar]

I'm going to lol when people finally realise time travel will never be possible.

Good luck with the atom smasher btw.

Keyboard Warriors GO!!!!

[Chu]

I'm going to lol when people finally realise time travel will never be possible.

Good luck with the atom smasher btw.

Keyboard Warriors GO!!!!
:lol:

[Bread and Faxes]

Totally said that.

That's why the scientists aren't really worried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Oh. Okay.

[ashman]

Pfft, I finally find this thread and all the questions have been answered :thumb:

One thing I'd like to add is; one major misconception about Black Holes is that they suck everything, but in reality they only suck things in that go beyond their event horizon.

For example, if our Sun were to magically turn into a Black Hole (without going supernova) all the planets, asteroids, .etc would still orbit the same point.

Black Holes aren't the real Villain here, Discovery Channel is :p

[joshmay]

Apparently the Hubble Telescope has seen the Fringes of the universe and the universe is supposed to work by a sequence of Big Bang's. That once the universe has stretched as much as it possibly could, it would snap back and compress into a much smaller, denser mass. Which is also interesting.

If we were able to create a Black Hole, wouldn't this in theory destroy our world and eventually grow into a much larger Black Hole and do the same to other universal structures? And it would even question our theories on god. It could put it to rest, or maybe even validate it further?



hahaha

your speculation is well-meant but research this stuff alot more before you start your own theorizing.

[ashman]

Don't mock the poor fellow, he's thinking and showing an interest that should be encouraged in this world of "IT MUST BE TR00F I READZ IT ON TEH INTRAWEBZ" :thumb:

[jenyus]

Its in switzerland and its called the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). So what if the world ends, you're not yellow are you?

[RockStar]

LHC is going to fail @ time travel etc.

I'm going to lol.

[Chu]

The LHC is a high-energy particle accelerator. How you decoded "time travel" out of that, I have no idea.

[RockStar]

Because the vibe I'm getting from this thread is people think it's going to create a black hole which they can just jump through to another time.

[Chu]

Well, "time travel" does exist inside a black hole, just not time travel as portrayed by popular media (If you're unlucky enough to be the person who does the travel, you're not really going anywhere, and you're not really going to come out anywhere, but you have bridged the gap, and are essentially 'frozen' to an outsider, while you're still active in 'your world') at least, according to my interpretation of it.

So in a sense, while possible, it's just really not probable.

[siva_chair]

Everyone knows the LHC is going to create an interdimensional tear and galactic zombies are going to come through and invade earth. DUH.

[RockStar]

So when is this huge waste of money going to get fired up?

[Chu]

Mid-June (I think?), but really, it's not a waste of money at all...

[siva_chair]

Mid-June (I think?), but really, it's not a waste of money at all...

Yeah, I mean, how else are we gonna bring on the zombie holocaust?

[Chu]

Indeed. lol

Think of the potential cash sink involved in such a thing, someone has to produce the firearms and ammunition required to stop an army of such size.

[siva_chair]

Indeed. lol

Think of the potential cash sink involved in such a thing, someone has to produce the firearms and ammunition required to stop an army of such size.

Why do you think I've already started stockpiling? I feel sorry for people who live in communist countries like the UK where you don't get to have guns. It is really gonna suck for them.

I am so ready for that turd to hit the fan....

[RockStar]

Why do you think I've already started stockpiling? I feel sorry for people who live in communist countries like the UK where you don't get to have guns. It is really gonna suck for them.

I am so ready for that turd to hit the fan....

You've seen Sean Of The Dead right? They've got like records and **** to throw at them. Will be all good.

[Smokey D]

Pfft, I finally find this thread and all the questions have been answered :thumb:

One thing I'd like to add is; one major misconception about Black Holes is that they suck everything, but in reality they only suck things in that go beyond their event horizon.

For example, if our Sun were to magically turn into a Black Hole (without going supernova) all the planets, asteroids, .etc would still orbit the same point.

Black Holes aren't the real Villain here, Discovery Channel is :p

Just to clarify, a black hole doesn't increase in mass does it? So there's no reason things wouldn't continue doing what they're doing.

[Chu]

RockStar, was that.. NEGATIVE reputation from you?

And here I was thinking I was the keyboard warrior!

[The Stig]

A black hole pulls all matter into its extreme gravitational pull :p

Only the matter that crosses the event horizon, and these will be so small that their pull is negligible.

And the mass stays the same; it just becomes much denser.

[guitarded_chuck]

I hate to disrupt the physics discussion but Universally Speaking by RHCP is a damn good song.

Hey, it is a music forum!

[Mr. Ron]

Everyone knows the LHC is going to create an interdimensional tear and galactic zombies are going to come through and invade earth. DUH.

You sir, just described my wet dream.

[Bread and Faxes]

Only the matter that crosses the event horizon, and these will be so small that their pull is negligible.

And the mass stays the same; it just becomes much denser.

Yes, exactly. We wouldn't really recognize that we were being pulled into the hole anyway.

[ashman]

Just to clarify, a black hole doesn't increase in mass does it? So there's no reason things wouldn't continue doing what they're doing.

The Black hole would have the same mass as the star that was there before in an ideal world. In reality, some mass is lost due to the Supernova explosion. The only thing that really changes, is it's density.

[Chu]

Actually, an interesting development in black holes just recently occurred...

"New calculations suggest that black holes are not a one-way street. Anything that falls into them may eventually come out. The findings lend important support to quantum gravity, but fly in the face of Einsteinian relativity. They also support Stephen Hawking's reluctant admission that information couldn't be destroyed by black holes. Penn State researcher Ahbay Ashtekar was quoted saying, 'Once we realized that the notion of space-time as a continuum is only an approximation of reality, it became clear to us that singularities are merely artifacts of our insistence that space-time should be described as a continuum.'"
Some links provided: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080514-black-holes.html

Older, some what related article:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/14/2330221&tid=133

[siva_chair]

You've seen Sean Of The Dead right? They've got like records and **** to throw at them. Will be all good.

Yeah but I've also seen 28 Days Later as well as 28 Weeks Later and so I'm pretty sure they're ****ed.

[siva_chair]

You sir, just described my wet dream.

This doesn't suprise me. There have been many a night when I have awoken from a dream dealing with zombie invasions to find myself in a wet pool of my own doing.:thumb:

It would probably really suck if it happened, but I think it could be just the tragedy that humankind needs to unite together. Similar to if aliens started invading earth.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

i think what with homosexuals getting married and stuff god is probably just itchin' for an excuse to send us a plague of alien zombies.

[siva_chair]

i think what with homosexuals getting married and stuff god is probably just itchin' for an excuse to send us a plague of alien zombies.

Good thing God invented guns so we could have a fighting chance, huh?

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

do you really think guns will be any use against alien zombies :rolleyes:

[Mr. Ron]

I was thinking last night....doesn't the LHC use some of the biggest magnets man has ever built? I wonder what effects that has on the earth's magnetic fields?

[fingers mccoy]

allllllways with the magnets.

[ashman]

Actually, an interesting development in black holes just recently occurred...


Some links provided: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080514-black-holes.html

Older, some what related article:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/14/2330221&tid=133

Would have been nice if they posted a tad more information about it. I'll do a little more reading into it.

Ron, it shouldn't muck up the old gravitational field, it's still pretty small compared to the Magnetic* field of the earth.

*oops, typo

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah I was just wondering.

[Czech Yourself]

How did this go from Universe to Zombies? :rolleyes:

But, yes. I have also heard that a black hole is kinda like a one way street.

Anyone care to explain further?

[ashman]

About the new theory or the one way street thing?

EDIT:

Couldn't find anything really, except what was posted in that article. I did however find a cool site about black holes, that's all pretty and shiny.

http://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/black_holes/home.html

Enjoy.

[ashman]

Right, sorry about the double post, but this need bumping cos I need spitfires/rockandrolls input on this.


I was trundling that website and came across an explanation about about why the expansion of the Universe is accelerating, the ol' Dark Energy.

It said that as the universe expanded,the pull of gravity was overwhelmed by dark energy. The thing I don't understand, is that Dark Energy appears to be an opposing force (as in like charges repel each other), now wouldn't it be exactly the same strength, thus cancelling each other out?

I can think of two very shady explanations;

1) Escaping gravitons into the nth Dimension as said by M-Theory, but would the dark energy suffer from a similar problem?

2) A whole new property of particles and possible a new force, but that just adds a whole new level of craziness.

I'm not gonna sleep tonight because of this :upset: